• British (european?) kitchen counter electric outlets

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 8 15:53:02 2024
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a
    fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
    of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 8 17:13:20 2024
    On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 15:53:02 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
    wrote:

    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 8 22:07:57 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom

    What year?

    and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.

    Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.

    Granted, each outlet is rated a
    fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Grant Taylor@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jun 8 20:29:28 2024
    On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

    I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

    The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
    plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
    I've seen pictures / video of.



    --
    Grant. . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sat Jun 8 22:31:55 2024
    On 6/8/2024 7:07 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom

    What year?

    No idea. I don't know when particular shows were made or aired -- even domestic (US) content!

    and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.

    Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.

    These were "wall outlets" fixed in place. As the contact arrangement differs from US (larger and different blade orientations), she didn't recognize them as such.

    IIRC (I wasn't watching the show but only called in for a "consult"),
    there were two outlets "together", side by side, and then another
    two outlets a fair distance away from those.

    We have a small kitchen ("food prep area" as eating and dining areas are elsewhere) but there are 7 duplex receptacles, there -- enough for 14
    small appliances scattered along the countertop.

    As most such appliances don't require a lot of power (think hand mixer, blender, small TV, etc.), having the ability to power many from the
    existing outlets is important. If a "power strip" resembles an
    "extension cord", it's use would be discouraged -- hence the requirement
    for outlets to be closer together on the countertops than elsewhere
    in the house (where I think 12' is the norm).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 9 01:54:38 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v43epf$37rdv$1@dont-email.me...
    On 6/8/2024 7:07 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom

    What year?

    No idea. I don't know when particular shows were made or aired -- even domestic (US) content!

    and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.

    Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.

    These were "wall outlets" fixed in place. As the contact arrangement differs from US (larger and different blade orientations), she didn't recognize them as
    such.

    IIRC (I wasn't watching the show but only called in for a "consult"),
    there were two outlets "together", side by side

    They may have had switches too. https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/why-are-uk-plugs-different

    , and then another
    two outlets a fair distance away from those.

    We have a small kitchen ("food prep area" as eating and dining areas are elsewhere) but there are 7 duplex receptacles, there -- enough for 14
    small appliances scattered along the countertop.

    As most such appliances don't require a lot of power (think hand mixer, blender, small TV, etc.), having the ability to power many from the
    existing outlets is important. If a "power strip" resembles an
    "extension cord", it's use would be discouraged -- hence the requirement
    for outlets to be closer together on the countertops than elsewhere
    in the house (where I think 12' is the norm).



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 9 07:57:17 2024
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    We tend to skimp on the number of socket outlet plates in buildings, but
    they are usually doubles, each with its own switch. There are generally
    fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
    often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
    when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.

    We also have socket strips which plug into wall sockets and give four or
    six outlets (normally unswitched) for lighter loads. This is helpful
    for temporary arrangements where more sockets are needed in a hurry -
    but tends to become permanent, leading to a maze of wires behind the
    furniture. The strip is plugged into a normal wall socket with a fused
    plug, so if it is overloaded, the fuse will blow and protect it.

    Because the UK voltage is double the US voltage, the UK current is half
    the US current for the same power, so our wiring tends to be lighter
    gauge but we are much stricter on preventing electric shock.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Sun Jun 9 03:31:56 2024
    On 6/8/2024 11:57 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    We tend to skimp on the number of socket outlet plates in buildings, but
    they are usually doubles, each with its own switch.

    Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
    a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).

    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
    were "on" the wall (?)

    There are generally
    fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
    often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
    when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.

    Any "major appliances" (stove/oven, dishwasher, refrigerator) tend to
    have dedicated outlets (and dedicated circuits). I suspect a
    microwave oven would be the most common appliance that is constantly
    powered in a US kitchen.

    Many appliances have very short power cords -- on the order of ~18-24".
    So, an appliance tends to be plugged into a receptacle immediately
    "behind" its place on the counter (even if not permanently stored there).

    Long cords that could cross a sink or stove(top) are discouraged.
    E.g., our toaster has an 18" cord as does my pizzelle iron. But,
    the hand mixer and stand mixers probably have 4' chords (?).
    A toaster *oven* would similarly have a short cord as would the
    electric frying pans and wok.

    Our ice cream maker probably has a 2 ft cord as would a rice cooker
    or bread maker.

    I intentionally arranged the receptacles serving the counter tops
    such that it was obvious as to which outlets were on each branch
    circuit and a duplex of each circuit would be available in each
    "prep area".

    We also have socket strips which plug into wall sockets and give four or
    six outlets (normally unswitched) for lighter loads. This is helpful
    for temporary arrangements where more sockets are needed in a hurry -
    but tends to become permanent, leading to a maze of wires behind the furniture. The strip is plugged into a normal wall socket with a fused
    plug, so if it is overloaded, the fuse will blow and protect it.

    We have similar strips but I have never seen one deployed in a kitchen.
    In general, the intent is for folks to use the in-wall mounted receptacles without introducing other "extension cords". I think newer construction deliberately increases the density of outlets in rooms as there are
    more and more electric (electronic) devices encountered -- esp things
    with wall warts (that consume an outlet without using a lot of power).

    Because the UK voltage is double the US voltage, the UK current is half
    the US current for the same power, so our wiring tends to be lighter
    gauge but we are much stricter on preventing electric shock.

    The kitchen requires the use of GFCI-protected outlets (or branch circuits). The same requirement doesn't extend through the rest of the house (excepting the bathrooms/garage/outdoors), though.

    AFCI-protected outlets are becoming more common in bedrooms but their
    goal is to reduce risk of fire.

    My motivation for moving everything to PoE PSE/PDs was to get rid of the growing number of small power supplies/wall warts/bricks that are proliferating in homes. E.g., you can purchase duplex receptacles with built-in 5V USB
    power sources -- but, I don't think this increases outlet availability as
    you still have to mate the USB cable to the receptacle which can interfere
    with the plugging of a power cord.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sun Jun 9 10:36:45 2024
    On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 22:07:57 -0400, Edward Rawde wrote:

    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In
    addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom

    What year?

    Quite. It's been the practice to steadily increase the number of fixed
    wall power outlets over the years. The sitcom could easily be 30 or 40
    years old, in which case, two or three worktop double outlets would be
    about par for the course back then.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 9 17:01:04 2024
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 6/8/2024 11:57 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    [...]
    There are generally
    fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
    often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
    when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.

    Any "major appliances" (stove/oven, dishwasher, refrigerator) tend to
    have dedicated outlets (and dedicated circuits). I suspect a
    microwave oven would be the most common appliance that is constantly
    powered in a US kitchen.

    Electric cookers are invariably wired-in permanently with their own
    dedicated spur from the fuse box or consumer unit. This is because UK
    cookers have tended to be standalone units with (for intance) four top
    rings, a grill and an oven. With everything switched on (such as
    preparing Christmas dinner) they can draw over 12 kW.

    They must have a two-pole isolating switch located close to, but not
    directly above, them. Often these isolators also have a built-in single
    socket which is handy for an electric kettle or similar appliance that
    is used frequently and needs to be kept near the cooker.

    In the last 20 years there has been a trend towards separate units in
    different locations for the various function of a cooker, so some of the lower-power units can be fed from a socket instead of being permanently wired-in.

    Refrigerators and microwave ovens will work off a 13 amp socket, so they
    are rarely 'plumbed-in' ...but the socket may be located on the wall
    directly behind them and inacessible unless the appliance is moved out
    first.

    Washing machines and dishwashers are plumbed-in for water and waste but
    they are usually restricted to 3 kW and will therefore work off a 13 amp socket. The arrangement of water hoses, taps and fittings close to a
    240v power point is an uncomfortable one, but doesn't seem to cause much trouble in practice.


    I heard from a domestic appliance manufacturer with international sales
    that the models for America, the UK and Europe differ in the design of
    the casing. The American models are designed to make more noise, as
    this gives the impression they are powerful. The UK models are quieter
    to give the impression of efficiency and the European models are
    super-quiet to give the impression of environmental friendliness.

    I don't know how true that is, but it is an interesting view on national psychology.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 9 17:11:33 2024
    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    That may be a side effect of stage sets not reflecting real life.

    Historically you would have to go back to the 1960's or earlier to have
    as few as two mains sockets in a UK kitchen. My kitchen has 4x2 outlets
    above the bench and about 6 under it for fridge/freezer/washer/oven etc.

    There certainly was a time when kitchens typically had only one high
    power socket outlet on the (hard wired in) main cooker switch. But we
    are talking of an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round
    pin. BS546 round pin was the more recent and before that Wylex which was
    -o- a regional abberration in the region where I grew up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    That is no different in most of the UK. Sitcom sets don't always
    represent real life. That said you can find older UK kitchens with too
    few mains sockets. New build has to have a certain number. Those in
    regions prone to flooding also have to have them above a certain height. (historically most were on the skirting board)

    It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Jun 9 17:38:51 2024
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    ... But we
    are talking of an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round
    pin. BS546 round pin was the more recent and before that Wylex which was
    -o- a regional abberration in the region where I grew up.

    Wylex was a brilliant and economical system which combined all the best features of a ring main, a spur system and stackable fused plugs to
    avoid multiple power points or proliferated adaptors. It is a pity it
    wasn't adopted as a British Standard instead of the clumsy system we now
    have.

    The different-width pin system, which prevented overloading low-current circuits, has continued to be used in the fuse carriers of Wylex
    consumer units until very recently.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Sun Jun 9 10:05:44 2024
    On 6/9/2024 9:01 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 6/8/2024 11:57 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    [...]
    There are generally
    fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
    often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
    when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.

    Any "major appliances" (stove/oven, dishwasher, refrigerator) tend to
    have dedicated outlets (and dedicated circuits). I suspect a
    microwave oven would be the most common appliance that is constantly
    powered in a US kitchen.

    Electric cookers are invariably wired-in permanently with their own
    dedicated spur from the fuse box or consumer unit. This is because UK cookers have tended to be standalone units with (for intance) four top
    rings, a grill and an oven. With everything switched on (such as
    preparing Christmas dinner) they can draw over 12 kW.

    Yes, the stovetop on ours can dissipate 9KW (1200+1200+3600+3000+100W)
    with another 4KW (max(3000,4200,1300)) in the oven proper. I assume
    there are some smarts in the appliance to "schedule" the drive to individual heating elements.

    (I know some of the induction cooktops only plan on two elements being
    active concurrently -- no doubt to save on drive electronics. But, I
    don't know if they are smart enough to time-division multiplex the drive
    so that all of the stovetop burners can be used at reduced duty cycle)

    They must have a two-pole isolating switch located close to, but not
    directly above, them. Often these isolators also have a built-in single socket which is handy for an electric kettle or similar appliance that
    is used frequently and needs to be kept near the cooker.

    Virtually all "circuit protection devices" are remotely located, here,
    in the load center -- near where the main service enters the home.
    (some kitchens may have a sub-panel to economize on wiring). But,
    in general, appliances would have their own "power switches" as
    part of their design -- assuming the notion of "OFF" makes sense.

    To support "old work", one can purchase GFCI receptacles that can
    provide that functionality at the outlet (instead of in the load
    center). If located as the "first" (closest, electrically, to the
    load center) outlet, the balance of the outlets on that branch
    circuit can be protected as "loads" to that first unit.

    I've been reviewing "electric kettles" to make boiling water
    independant from the stove -- to reduce the wear and tear on the
    (hard to replace) heating element in the stovetop AND to minimize
    the chance of boilover (which necessitates a cleaning of the stovetop)
    I also think this may reduce the amount of heat thrown into the
    kitchen in the process.

    In the last 20 years there has been a trend towards separate units in different locations for the various function of a cooker, so some of the lower-power units can be fed from a socket instead of being permanently wired-in.

    One can purchase separate stovetops and ovens, here. But, the stovetop
    tends to be the lion's share of the power consumption (see above).

    You can buy a small "single burner" heating element (like to heat a
    pot of water) but it would tend to be slower in doing so (e.g., I
    boil water -- half a gallon at a time -- on the stove's 3600W element
    set to HIGH).

    Kitchens tend to attract "gadgets". But, experience will teach you not
    to indulge those whims if you are concerned with where to site or store
    them! E.g., my cavatelli maker hides in the garage for 350+ days out
    of the year (cuz making cavatelli from scratch is too tedious to do
    that often!). Ditto pizelle maker, pasta maker, cannoli tubes,
    artichoke stands, cheese/meat grinder, bread pans, casserole dishes,
    etc. WHEN you need them, they are invaluable. But, the rest of the
    time, they are just "things" begging for a place to hide!

    This can get tedious with some of the larger bits of kit (e.g., the stand
    mixer is large and bulky and TOO OFTEN finds its way back into the
    kitchen: "I'm getting too old for this shit!"

    [Our kitchen (food prep area) is relatively small -- ~150 sq ft. So,
    the storage space there is precious. And, is relatively easy to fill
    when you consider flatware, kitchen utensils, pots/pans, foodstuffs,
    etc. that you rely on EVERY day. Counterspace doubly so as you don't
    want to sacrifice parts of it to storing larger devices if not going
    to be used regularly. (We discarded our countertop toaster/convection
    oven in favor of a stove with dual ovens just to reclaim that bit of counterspace! When I bake cookies, I rely on the top of SWMBOs 42x54"
    "map cabinet" for an extra 16 sq ft of cooling racks!)]

    Refrigerators and microwave ovens will work off a 13 amp socket, so they
    are rarely 'plumbed-in' ...but the socket may be located on the wall directly behind them and inacessible unless the appliance is moved out
    first.

    Refrigerators often have a dedicated branch circuit so the circuit
    isn't accidentally tripped, putting those foodstuffs at risk.
    None of our appliances require tools to "disconnect"; each
    has some form of plug/socket arrangement -- though access to
    it may be difficult (e.g., pull out the stove, refrigerator,
    dishwasher to gain access)

    Microwave ovens are just countertop appliances (in most cases; some
    are wired in place but most are as replaceable as a toaster).
    We moved our microwave onto a different branch circuit to increase
    the margin available on the countertop circuits.

    Washing machines and dishwashers are plumbed-in for water and waste but
    they are usually restricted to 3 kW and will therefore work off a 13 amp socket. The arrangement of water hoses, taps and fittings close to a
    240v power point is an uncomfortable one, but doesn't seem to cause much trouble in practice.

    Some homes will have "instant hot water" (a small, tankless electric water heater that can bring small quantities of water to "boiling" nearly instantly. This dispensed via an additional spigot on the sink). Others may have
    a "real" hot water heater under each sink -- this to reduce the time to
    having hot water at that location. E.g., it's probably a 40ft run UNDERGROUND from our water heater to any of the loads it services.

    I heard from a domestic appliance manufacturer with international sales
    that the models for America, the UK and Europe differ in the design of
    the casing. The American models are designed to make more noise, as
    this gives the impression they are powerful. The UK models are quieter
    to give the impression of efficiency and the European models are
    super-quiet to give the impression of environmental friendliness.

    I don't know how true that is, but it is an interesting view on national psychology.

    This depends on the company's positioning. Some products (dishwashers,
    washing machines) are advertised as "quiet". It is a means of
    distinguishing between different product offerings within a manufacturer's line. We, for example, have to rely on "alarms" for these devices
    to tell us when they are "done". And, the alarms are hardly large enough
    to be heard throughout the house -- being "one-time" events, if you don't
    hear it when it alarms, you miss it completely: "Has my wash finished?"

    Many other products intentionally -- and obviously -- attempt to deceive. Witness "puffy" pickup trucks that are just lots of air behind their
    sheetmetal skins. Garbage disposals tend to have a similarly sized motor encased in a (hollow) plastic outer skin to make them APPEAR heftier. etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Jun 9 10:33:15 2024
    On 6/9/2024 9:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    That may be a side effect of stage sets not reflecting real life.

    Possibly. Yet one would think the set designer would likely imagine
    a real kitchen ("Gee, where am I going to put the oven?") in designing
    the set. Overall *size* would seem to be the more variable issue.
    Growing up, our kitchen was exactly as large as our living room (which
    was considerably larger than any other room in the house). The
    (converted apartment house) that served as my dormitory in college
    had a kitchen that had just enough room for a single occupant
    alongside sink, stove, refrigerator.

    Historically you would have to go back to the 1960's or earlier to have as few
    as two mains sockets in a UK kitchen. My kitchen has 4x2 outlets above the bench and about 6 under it for fridge/freezer/washer/oven etc.

    There are 14 outlets (7x2) in our small (150 sq ft) food prep area (we *eat*
    in another area). This doesn't count the outlets (or branch circuits)
    used for the oven/stove, refrigerator, dishwasher or garbage disposal.
    Or, any outlets on the "unproductive" wall that bears no counters.

    There certainly was a time when kitchens typically had only one high power socket outlet on the (hard wired in) main cooker switch. But we are talking of
    an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round pin. BS546 round pin
    was the more recent and before that Wylex which was -o- a regional abberration
    in the region where I grew up.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    That is no different in most of the UK. Sitcom sets don't always represent real
    life. That said you can find older UK kitchens with too few mains sockets. New
    build has to have a certain number. Those in regions prone to flooding also have to have them above a certain height.
    (historically most were on the skirting board)

    AFAICT, the minimum, here, would be two *circuits*. As each would terminate
    in a duplex receptacle, I'm guessing that would translate to 4 outlets.
    The actual number would be determined by (roughly) the distance along
    the wall behind the countertops -- a duplex receptacle for each 4 ft of
    linear span (so, a corner could have two sets of outlets each 2 ft from
    the corner of the wall)

    It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

    This -- hence my reference to "number of outlets" and not "power available".

    I use at least two outlets any time I bake anything and as many as 6 when
    I'm "entertaining" (not counting the stovetop!). Note that most of those
    loads can be small -- or intermittent -- but need to be powered constantly, nonetheless.

    The countertops have network drops available if someone wanted to
    deploy a TV or laptop, there -- which would eat still more outlets.

    Most of the places that I've lived, the kitchen is the social center of
    the home so there's often a lot happening, there.

    [We keep all of our rechargeables on a small table in the living room
    where they are more easily accessed. They will soon be moved to an
    antique radio that I'm refinishing to house our media tank (I don't
    like SEEING technology products in a home)]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 9 17:04:33 2024
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
    Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
    supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
    be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
    in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
    main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
    own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
    cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
    in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses >depending.

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 9 17:10:02 2024
    On 6/9/2024 3:43 PM, TTman wrote:


    It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs >>> charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.

    This -- hence my reference to "number of outlets" and not "power available".

    In the UK, it's common now to fit double plug sockets that have built in dual USB outlets that can supply 2A per USB socket.

    Yes, you can buy duplex outlets that have USB-A and/or -C chargers built
    in (I think 3.6A total). But, as our outlets are relatively small, this
    makes for a crowded outlet if USB devices try to share that space with
    a pair of mains powered devices:

    <https://www.universalsecuritystore.com/store/images/products/large_images/usb2r2wh20a36-usi-electric-20-amp-usb-charger-duplex-wall-outlet-2.jpg>

    We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.

    I'm not sure if this is a good, long-term solution (if you already have
    an abundance of outlets, already) as a failure in that charger now requires
    the outlet to be replaced (instead of just unplugging and discarding a small plug-in charger)

    And, as most outlets (in rooms other than the kitchen) are located just
    above the floor level, the value of them in those places is dubious
    (do you have a surface nearby on which you could set the device(s)
    being charged?)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 9 17:41:36 2024
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that.  And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
    a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).

    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
    were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

    So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
    routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface
    mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs). But, it would typically
    not be found in most homes (kitchens). A "Plugmold" product provides
    similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"

    Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes
    with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
    (to protect the wiring). E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
    in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation and affords some protections against physical damage.

    Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high

    As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
    little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
    in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity, cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)

    You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
    a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume. A single gang device typically
    exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 9 18:24:54 2024
    On 6/9/2024 6:19 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each

    Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
    the counter/.  (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)

    You can purchase outlets that fit *into* the counter surface (and "pop-up"
    when needed; an up-facing outlet is prohibited). You can also locate
    outlets below the counter (within ~12" vertically) as long as they aren't recessed more than ~6".

    There are other rules for islands and peninsulas to ensure no extension
    cords are used to bring power to workspaces that might need it (anything
    more than 12" wide)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 9 18:19:45 2024
    On 6/9/2024 3:38 PM, TTman wrote:
    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
    over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each

    Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind the counter/. (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)

    Here, we have 9 individual Jboxes to service the countertops:
    - 5 1G boxes with 20A duplex receptacles
    - 2 1G boxes with "communications" wiring
    - 1 4G box to support a 20A duplex plus switches for garbage disposal, oversink
    lighting and overhead lighting
    - 1 2G box to support 20A duplex plus a dual (half-height) switch to power
    the under cabinet lighting circuits

    *Below* the level of the counter are the outlets for the stove/oven, garbage disposal, dishwasher and refrigerator -- with the microwave oven off on
    it's own. These aren't intended to require normal access.

    socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker).

    Here, a 20A circuit provides 2400W to the total load on that branch circuit (though each receptacle can individually support a 20A load; loads exceeding 15A have a different plug configuration making them physically incompatible with the normal 15A receptacles found in other rooms).

    The branch circuit is protected in the load center with a 20A circuit
    breaker (GFCIs in our case to eliminate the need to install GFCI receptacles
    in the kitchen)

    All the sockets are wired in a 'ring main' format
    to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet.

    Presumably, this means there is no "start" or "end" of the branch circuit?
    So, no way to retrofit a GFCI receptacle to the "start" of the string and provide that protection to the remainder of the string?

    A kettle will have a typical
    power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other main appliances - dish

    The electric kettles I've looked at tend to be in the 1500W range
    (I want to stop relying on the 3600W burner in the stovetop to
    boil water; I'm willing to settle for longer boil times or
    smaller boil volumes to do so)

    washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier own separate supplies. Ovens

    Washer and dryer would typically be in some other "laundry" area
    (with its own requirements). Likewise for domestic water heater.
    Big heat loads here are often powered with natural gas. An
    "all electric" house is seen as a bit of a curse though I've
    a friend who has made such a switch. (We rely on gas for heat
    and domestic hot water, prefering electric for cooking)

    [Two neighbors have such homes -- the gas supply was deliberately not
    brought to their residences as part of some "development plan" (?).
    Their electric bills tend to be ~$300/month, even in the low demand
    (winter) months. Adding gas to their homes would require excavating the
    street and their front yards (actually, this could be done with a
    drill but still costly!)]

    will be wired using 6mm cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses depending.

    A problem with US wiring is that it relies heavily on protection devices
    at the load center. E.g., my pizzelle iron (750W?) is just a plug,
    power cord and some nichrome wire. The "power indicator" is actually
    the glow of the nichrome wire as seen through a glass window! :<

    But, the adoption of AFCIs is intended to help address "failing" products
    on the assumption that they will piss and spit AS they are failing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Jun 9 21:21:33 2024
    "john larkin" <jl@650pot.com> wrote in message news:7bgc6jhk2ae8lp8g3si4loehv968oorocs@4ax.com...
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
    there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>> were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >>> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>> over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
    be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
    in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
    main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm >>cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
    in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses >>depending.

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Yes


    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 10 08:00:18 2024
    On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, >>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a >>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >>> of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>> over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
    Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
    supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
    be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
    in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
    kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
    main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
    own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
    cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
    in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
    depending.

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
    third to one quarter of the cost.

    There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
    instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
    heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
    for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
    are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
    this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
    What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
    to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
    necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
    water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
    so that heat loss is reduced.

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
    weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
    losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
    the prices of gas and electricity. From <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30 September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
    and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
    lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
    who supplies the power.

    I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
    a lot more information there.

    --
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 10 10:35:11 2024
    On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Mostly gas 74% at least in the cities although it is slowly changing to
    air source heat pumps (which is a stupid idea in a country where the
    coldest months typically have near 100% humidity and hover around 0C).
    They ice up with monotonous regularity. Ground source heat pumps are a
    slightly better bet.

    See for example the census data: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9838/#:~:text=Census%202021%20found%20that%2073.8,no%20central%20heating%20and%201.0%25

    Where I live gas is not an option but about 80% of the population are on
    the national gas grid (and it is by far the cheapest heating option).
    Not all of them use it though. Dual fuel from the same supplier gets you
    a discount (which isn't available if there is no gas supply).

    Snag is consumer electricity prices are linked to the most expensive way
    of making the last bit of electricity needed to satisfy demand which has resulted in insane price increases since the Ukraine invasion. So bad
    that the government has had to intervene with price caps.

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    For my house comparatively little despite the large number of gadgets my
    base load is only about 100W continuous. We don't have gas so are on
    solid fuel (wood/coal) and oil CH which spiked after Ukraine. But OTOH
    they were practically giving it away when Covid closed down air travel!
    28s kerosene and aviation fuel are almost interchangeable.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 10 10:16:41 2024
    On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that.  And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
    a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).

    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
    were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the
    wall.

    So, they fit *into* the wall?  Is the wiring concealed in the wall and routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with plastered
    walls so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket box into the
    wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran behind the
    skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let into that.

    There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs).  But, it would typically
    not be found in most homes (kitchens).  A "Plugmold" product provides similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"

    Surface mounted boxes are generally used in garages and utility rooms or
    in positions that are out of sight (like under counters behind fridges).

    Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
    (to protect the wiring).  E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
    in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
    and affords some protections against physical damage.

    Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them
    surface mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6"
    wide x 3"high

    As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
    little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
    in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity, cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)

    You can get flush surface mount units but you have to chase that much
    further into brickwork to fit the it in. The old way with ~10mm
    protruding was the least worst option and is still common. New build
    with a lot of stud walling tends to have more modern flush mount.

    You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
    a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume.  A single gang device typically
    exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate

    It takes a while with a chisel to knock a hole big enough for a UK mains
    socket out of a wall which is why most remain 10mm out to this day. The
    plaster tends to fall off nearby so it is always messy to install one.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 10 07:34:48 2024
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, >>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>> we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a >>>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
    of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>> over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
    supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
    in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
    main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
    cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
    in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
    depending.

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a >third to one quarter of the cost.

    There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
    instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
    heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
    for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
    are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
    this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
    What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
    to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower >temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
    necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
    water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
    so that heat loss is reduced.

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences, >weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
    losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
    the prices of gas and electricity. From ><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30 >September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
    and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
    lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
    who supplies the power.

    I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
    a lot more information there.

    I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of gas-to-electricity converter machine.

    The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
    electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

    There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
    CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
    keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Mon Jun 10 07:54:30 2024
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 10:35:11 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Mostly gas 74% at least in the cities although it is slowly changing to
    air source heat pumps (which is a stupid idea in a country where the
    coldest months typically have near 100% humidity and hover around 0C).
    They ice up with monotonous regularity. Ground source heat pumps are a >slightly better bet.

    See for example the census data: >https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9838/#:~:text=Census%202021%20found%20that%2073.8,no%20central%20heating%20and%201.0%25

    Where I live gas is not an option but about 80% of the population are on
    the national gas grid (and it is by far the cheapest heating option).
    Not all of them use it though. Dual fuel from the same supplier gets you
    a discount (which isn't available if there is no gas supply).

    Snag is consumer electricity prices are linked to the most expensive way
    of making the last bit of electricity needed to satisfy demand which has >resulted in insane price increases since the Ukraine invasion. So bad
    that the government has had to intervene with price caps.

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    For my house comparatively little despite the large number of gadgets my
    base load is only about 100W continuous. We don't have gas so are on
    solid fuel (wood/coal) and oil CH which spiked after Ukraine. But OTOH
    they were practically giving it away when Covid closed down air travel!
    28s kerosene and aviation fuel are almost interchangeable.

    Wood and coal are nasty, with lots worse by-products than CO2. We
    theoretically outlaw burning wood in San Francisco when weather
    conditions are wrong, but that's not enforced.

    It's cold here so we leave the gas heat on all the time. When it's
    cold and foggy we can hit as much as $300 a month for gas+electricity,
    which are on the same bill. People with air conditioning can pay much
    more, but a/c makes life possible in many parts of the USA.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Jun 10 10:29:31 2024
    On 6/10/2024 2:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that.  And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
    a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>
    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>> were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. >>
    So, they fit *into* the wall?  Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
    routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with plastered walls
    so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket box into the wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran behind the skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let into that.

    Here, most homes are stucco over masonry. So, any exterior walls are
    *harder* than "clay brick" (e.g., concrete block -- try drilling/cutting through the STONES in the mix).

    Plaster-over-lath is rare as modern construction techniques favor
    skin-coated drywall. Exterior walls are usually offset from the masonry
    with just 1" furring strips with no added insulation.

    [I've seriously considered furring out the exterior walls just so I can
    ADD insulation; once the masonry shell gets heated up, it drives the
    interior temperature. It would also give me the opportunity to be
    rid of the "textured" walls that are so common, here]

    Old work is virtually impossible as most homes are built on slabs (no
    basement) and many have flat "frontier style" roofs (no attic). Running
    new wiring means some amount of demo-work. Or, running the wiring
    on the exterior of the building (which looks REALLY tacky!)

    There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface
    mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs).  But, it would typically
    not be found in most homes (kitchens).  A "Plugmold" product provides
    similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"

    Surface mounted boxes are generally used in garages and utility rooms or in positions that are out of sight (like under counters behind fridges).

    Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes >> with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
    (to protect the wiring).  E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
    in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
    and affords some protections against physical damage.

    Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface
    mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high

    As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
    little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
    in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity,
    cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)

    You can get flush surface mount units but you have to chase that much further into brickwork to fit the it in. The old way with ~10mm protruding was the least worst option and is still common. New build with a lot of stud walling tends to have more modern flush mount.

    But, presumably, for new work (or full remodels) that would have been baked into the plan (?).

    You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
    a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume.  A single gang device typically
    exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate

    It takes a while with a chisel to knock a hole big enough for a UK mains socket
    out of a wall which is why most remain 10mm out to this day. The plaster tends
    to fall off nearby so it is always messy to install one.

    So, you preserve an old "shell" and, when you modernize it (electric, plumbing, gas, etc.) you skimp on that effort? As if it will be easier to do , later? Wouldn't you PLAN on having to take on these tasks in order to make that
    shell habitable, by modern standards?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 10 19:10:40 2024
    On 10/06/2024 15:34, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, >>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>>> we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a
    fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
    of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address >>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so >>>>> total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >>>>> ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric >>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>>> over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired >>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other >>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
    cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket >>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
    depending.

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
    third to one quarter of the cost.

    There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
    instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
    heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
    for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
    are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
    this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
    What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
    to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
    temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
    necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
    water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
    so that heat loss is reduced.

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
    weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
    losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
    the prices of gas and electricity. From
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
    September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
    and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
    lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
    who supplies the power.

    I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
    a lot more information there.

    I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of gas-to-electricity converter machine.

    There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
    last year:
    "Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
    to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
    GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6" That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
    the calculation was:
    146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)

    The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the
    source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
    cubic metre.

    The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
    electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

    ??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
    electric heating is 100% efficient!

    There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
    CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
    keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

    Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
    from 2025 (probably?). See
    <https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

    --
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 10 18:50:21 2024
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 19:10:40 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10/06/2024 15:34, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, >>>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between >>>>>> (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>>>> we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is rated a
    fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
    of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address >>>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so >>>>>> total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >>>>>> ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric >>>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>>>> over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired >>>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other >>>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
    cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket >>>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
    depending.

    Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
    cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
    reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?

    Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a >>> third to one quarter of the cost.

    There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
    instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
    heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
    for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
    are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All >>> this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power. >>> What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
    to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
    temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
    necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
    water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation >>> so that heat loss is reduced.

    How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?

    How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
    weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
    losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls >>> the prices of gas and electricity. From
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
    September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
    and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
    lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
    who supplies the power.

    I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
    a lot more information there.

    I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
    gas-to-electricity converter machine.

    There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
    last year:
    "Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
    to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
    GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6" >That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
    the calculation was:
    146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)

    The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the >source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
    cubic metre.

    The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
    electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

    ??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive >electric heating is 100% efficient!

    Unless you run it through a heat pump, which makes it 300% efficient.


    There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
    CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
    keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

    Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
    from 2025 (probably?). See
    <https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

    Bask in the cold dark.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 10 18:16:59 2024
    On 6/10/24 7:34 AM, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    <....>
    How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
    weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
    losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
    the prices of gas and electricity. From
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
    September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
    and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
    lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
    who supplies the power.

    I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
    a lot more information there.

    I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of gas-to-electricity converter machine.

    The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.

    A single BTU is equivalent to 1054J or about 0.293 Wh.

    They are normally billed in groups of 100,000 BTUs called a Therm
    equivalent to 29.3kWh.

    Current rates for gas in the SF Bay area are about $2/Therm.

    This is equivalent to ~7c/kWh, electricity is 40-60c/kWh depending upon
    time of day etc.

    Even accounting for 10-30% loss in gas appliances gas is cheaper than
    using a heat pump with a COP of ~3-4 for space and water heating.

    kw

    The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
    electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

    There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
    CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
    keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 10 21:59:19 2024
    On 6/9/2024 7:19 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:38 PM, TTman wrote:
    On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
    In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
    (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances".  In addition, >>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
    (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
    we settled on 3').

    SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few
    receptacles/outlets
    were in evidence to serve the countertop.  Granted, each outlet is
    rated a
    fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load
    rating
    of the branch circuit supporting it).  But, still, how do you address
    NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
    likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
    total load isn't an issue?

    E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
    ever-present loads.  To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
    wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc.  The abundance of
    outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>> over where they can be put into use.

    We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the
    wall. Each

    Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
    the counter/.  (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)

    Here, we have 9 individual Jboxes to service the countertops:
    - 5 1G boxes with 20A duplex receptacles
    - 2 1G boxes with "communications" wiring
    - 1 4G box to support a 20A duplex plus switches for garbage disposal, oversink
      lighting and overhead lighting
    - 1 2G box to support 20A duplex plus a dual (half-height) switch to power
      the under cabinet lighting circuits

    *Below* the level of the counter are the outlets for the stove/oven,
    garbage
    disposal, dishwasher and refrigerator -- with the microwave oven off on
    it's own.  These aren't intended to require normal access.



    socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
    supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there
    will be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker).

    Here, a 20A circuit provides 2400W to the total load on that branch circuit (though each receptacle can individually support a 20A load; loads
    exceeding
    15A have a different plug configuration making them physically incompatible with the normal 15A receptacles found in other rooms).

    The branch circuit is protected in the load center with a 20A circuit
    breaker (GFCIs in our case to eliminate the need to install GFCI
    receptacles
    in the kitchen)

    In my kid's kitchen the counter top receptacles mostly are 2 duplex
    receptacles together with the left one on one circuit and right one on
    the other. Two of the receptacles are GFCI and protect the rest of the receptacles downstream. GFCI trips are local and easily reset. GFCI
    receptacle with local reset is often convenient elsewhere. GFCI
    receptacles are mass produced and, last I looked, cheaper than GFCI breakers


    All the sockets are wired in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive
    volt drops at any outlet.

    Presumably, this means there is no "start" or "end" of the branch circuit? So, no way to retrofit a GFCI receptacle to the "start" of the string and provide that protection to the remainder of the string?

    My understanding of ring is the circuit starts in the "consumer unit",
    wanders around the dwelling, and returns to the consumer unit where it
    is protected in parallel with the start. It violates 2 rules on
    paralleling in the NEC. Wire for a 30A ring is rated less than 30A.

    From what I have seen, recepacle-plug combinations don't expose live
    prongs that make the receptacles much deeper than ours.


    A kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw.
    Other main appliances - dish

    The electric kettles I've looked at tend to be in the 1500W range
    (I want to stop relying on the 3600W burner in the stovetop to
    boil water; I'm willing to settle for longer boil times or
    smaller boil volumes to do so)

    washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier own separate
    supplies. Ovens

    Washer and dryer would typically be in some other "laundry" area
    (with its own requirements).  Likewise for domestic water heater.
    Big heat loads here are often powered with natural gas.  An
    "all electric" house is seen as a bit of a curse though I've
    a friend who has made such a switch.  (We rely on gas for heat
    and domestic hot water, prefering electric for cooking)

    [Two neighbors have such homes -- the gas supply was deliberately not
    brought to their residences as part of some "development plan" (?).
    Their electric bills tend to be ~$300/month, even in the low demand
    (winter) months.  Adding gas to their homes would require excavating the street and their front yards (actually, this could be done with a
    drill but still costly!)]

    will be wired using 6mm cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be
    plugged itto a wall socket in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with
    either 3A/5A or 13A fuses depending.

    A problem with US wiring is that it relies heavily on protection devices
    at the load center.  E.g., my pizzelle iron (750W?) is just a plug,
    power cord and some nichrome wire.  The "power indicator" is actually
    the glow of the nichrome wire as seen through a glass window!  :<

    But, the adoption of AFCIs is intended to help address "failing" products
    on the assumption that they will piss and spit AS they are failing.


    AFCIs are just as much aimed at protecting the house wiring. The NEC
    wants protection located in the panel, generally not at the 1st
    receptacle protecting what is downstream, as then the wiring from panel
    to receptacle would not not be protected.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 10 22:10:58 2024
    On 6/9/2024 11:05 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Refrigerators often have a dedicated branch circuit so the circuit
    isn't accidentally tripped, putting those foodstuffs at risk.
    None of our appliances require tools to "disconnect"; each
    has some form of plug/socket arrangement -- though access to
    it may be difficult (e.g., pull out the stove, refrigerator,
    dishwasher to gain access)


    If I remember right, the NEC wants electric stoves to have a disconnect
    visible from the stove. Could be a subpanel. It is common to have a plug
    and receptacle where a drawer at the bottom of the stove can be removed
    and you can reach through and pull the plug, which is then accessible.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 10 22:21:44 2024
    On 6/10/2024 11:29 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2024 2:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with
    plastered walls so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket
    box into the wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran
    behind the skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let
    into that.

    Here, most homes are stucco over masonry.  So, any exterior walls are *harder* than "clay brick" (e.g., concrete block -- try drilling/cutting through the STONES in the mix).

    Plaster-over-lath is rare as modern construction techniques favor
    skin-coated drywall.  Exterior walls are usually offset from the masonry with just 1" furring strips with no added insulation.

    [I've seriously considered furring out the exterior walls just so I can
    ADD insulation; once the masonry shell gets heated up, it drives the
    interior temperature.  It would also give me the opportunity to be
    rid of the "textured" walls that are so common, here]

    Old work is virtually impossible as most homes are built on slabs (no basement) and many have flat "frontier style" roofs (no attic).  Running
    new wiring means some amount of demo-work.  Or, running the wiring
    on the exterior of the building (which looks REALLY tacky!)


    Brick and masonry sound like a major PITA. Here (Minneapolis) the vast
    majority of houses are wood frame with basements. I think by the time
    you put footings deep enough a basement is relatively cheap. Also
    attics. I didn't know we had it so good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Grant Taylor on Mon Jun 10 22:45:20 2024
    On 6/8/2024 7:29 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

    I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

    The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
    plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
    I've seen pictures / video of.


    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection. For power circuits a fuse available fault current rating is
    of interest. Would be interesting what the rating for the tiny fuse is.
    Maybe you can't get much fault current through the small wire

    The logic for other cords may be that the wire is large enough that a
    short will produce a high enough current to trip a breaker and large
    enough to withstand the event.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits
    and current about half here with correspondingly small cord wire so you
    need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Grant Taylor on Tue Jun 11 11:50:43 2024
    On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

    I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

    The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
    plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
    I've seen pictures / video of.

    Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as
    brutal in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.

    I have to say that 13A fused plugs at 3kW run quite warm to the touch as
    well (at least on a continuous load). eg. Fan heater warming up a cold room.

    Kettle is an intermittment load so seldom gets used for long enough for
    the heat to really build up to noticeable levels. UK 13A plugs and
    sockets have fairly recently been derated to 10A (2.4kW load). I suspect
    with the phasing our of beryllium copper springs in their internals.

    Belgacom stackable telcoms plugs look like they were designed for
    3-phase mains for good measure. Almost same size as UK mains plugs!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapolar_plug

    Their workmen have a sense of humour too. They installed my ISDN service
    box on the dining room wall so that we could enjoy the LED light show...

    Cable TV guy was much more helpful.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Tue Jun 11 07:42:29 2024
    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 07:30:07 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 6/11/2024 3:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

    I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

    The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
    and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen >>> pictures / video of.

    XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand >plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest
    to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers >to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in >every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.

    Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they >plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.

    Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as brutal
    in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size
    to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.

    US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made.

    But are perfectly reliable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Jun 11 10:54:32 2024
    "john larkin" <jl@650pot.com> wrote in message news:qfog6jlbitiaa0e72tldls0jhkd5f4q1cr@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 07:30:07 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 6/11/2024 3:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

    I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

    The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
    and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen >>>> pictures / video of.

    XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand >>plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest >>to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers >>to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in >>every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.

    Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they >>plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.

    Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as brutal
    in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size
    to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.

    US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made.

    But are perfectly reliable.

    Well of course they're perfectly reliable John.
    It follows from the fact that anything made/used in the US can't possibly be less perfect than that which is used elsewhere.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Jun 11 07:30:07 2024
    On 6/11/2024 3:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
    The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.

    I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.

    I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.

    The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug >> and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen
    pictures / video of.

    XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest
    to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers
    to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in
    every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.

    Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.

    Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as brutal in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size
    to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.

    US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made. The blade material may be flexible, the mount in the (molded!) plug may be flimsy so the blades don't remain parallel, folks might cut off the earth conductor (to fit to a two-prong outlet/extension cord) or use an adapter that does the same thing (and fail to earth the required connection, XMAS lights can be found plugged (two prong) into an adapter that is screwed into a light socket (! no earth), etc.

    OTOH, plugs for industrial use are very robust (because the manufacturers
    don't want to have to replace them!). Ditto plugs used in hospital settings.

    I have to say that 13A fused plugs at 3kW run quite warm to the touch as well (at least on a continuous load). eg. Fan heater warming up a cold room.

    I salvage power cords from discarded (clothes) irons. They tend to be made of something that more closely approximates "rubber" (vs. thermoplastics), have better conductors (to handle the higher load) and are longer (than, for example, the cord on a toaster)

    Kettle is an intermittment load so seldom gets used for long enough for the heat to really build up to noticeable levels. UK 13A plugs and sockets have fairly recently been derated to 10A (2.4kW load). I suspect with the phasing our of beryllium copper springs in their internals.

    A socket, here, is just a preformed piece of metal that tries to pinch
    the blades of the plug. They are "stamped out" for pennies.

    Worse, there are receptacles that can be wired by inserting a conductor
    into a hole in the rear of the device (instead of putting it under and
    around a screw) for a sort of "friction fit". As homeowners are
    allowed to make such repairs/replacements, this is an often used
    alternative (the screw connection is also present, just ignored!)

    To make matters worse, loads will often be "daisy chained" through
    such devices -- instead of a hard connection to pigtails feeding each
    device in a box.

    Belgacom stackable telcoms plugs look like they were designed for 3-phase mains
    for good measure. Almost same size as UK mains plugs!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapolar_plug

    Their workmen have a sense of humour too. They installed my ISDN service box on
    the dining room wall so that we could enjoy the LED light show...

    *On* the wall (as in "fastened")? Such equipment, here, would be freestanding; set on the floor, on top of a TV, etc. but always "portable". The service connection would be bound to a particular point but the customer side of
    the connection would float.

    Cable TV guy was much more helpful.

    They are notoriously abysmal, here. Ditto with POTS installers. If you request new service, you'll find a length of cable run ON THE SOIL to your home's service connection. If you want three drops, they will route the
    cable up and over the roof, and down the appropriate exterior walls to
    enter through a hole that they will bore through your outer wall.

    [No basements/attics as they aren't needed -- no snow load so flat roof
    is relatively common and architecturally expected; no frost heave (frost
    line is ~4 inches) so shallow footings (18") and service trenches (our
    sewer line is just a few feet below ground)]

    If you want a drop on an *interior* wall, then things get tricky!
    The center void in the interior wall needs to be located on the
    roof. A hole drilled through and a plastic conduit installed
    (just to perforate the roof). The cable is fed through the conduit
    and the perforation around the conduit sealed with a petroleum
    product. Inside the house, the perforated wall void is located
    and a hole drilled into the drywall to fetch the cable end.

    The cable feed (on the soil) will stay there for months before someone
    will come around to bury it (just a few inches under the soil for
    cosmetic reasons. The thinking seems to be to get you *service* as
    quickly as possible -- so they can start billing you for it -- and
    worry about the niceties of the installation, later. (the cable
    company uses an ORANGE cable that is very obvious as it lays on the
    ground)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Grant Taylor@21:1/5 to bud-- on Tue Jun 11 22:26:44 2024
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.

    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
    plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where I'm
    using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the
    breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits
    and current about half here with correspondingly small cord wire so you
    need fuses in plugs.  One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how
    you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V domestic
    load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot
    in a dual hot cord.



    --
    Grant. . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to kevin_es@whitedigs.com on Wed Jun 12 11:03:54 2024
    KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote:

    [...]
    The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.

    Be careful when comparing historic matrial. A BTU was Board of Trade
    Unit which was equivalent to a kilowatt-hour, the BThU was the British
    Thermal Unit.

    When BTUs were phased out in favour of kWh, the redundant abbreviation
    'BTU" was repurposed as an alternative to "BThU". So depending on when
    it was written, "1 BTU" could mean either 1 kWh or 1 BthU.



    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Wed Jun 12 08:50:24 2024
    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 11:03:54 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote:

    [...]
    The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.

    Be careful when comparing historic matrial. A BTU was Board of Trade
    Unit which was equivalent to a kilowatt-hour, the BThU was the British >Thermal Unit.

    When BTUs were phased out in favour of kWh, the redundant abbreviation
    'BTU" was repurposed as an alternative to "BThU". So depending on when
    it was written, "1 BTU" could mean either 1 kWh or 1 BthU.

    The classic US units were fun. A "barrel" might be different volumes
    or masses, depending on what stuff you were selling.

    I once calibrated a hot-water thermal metering system for a giant
    building in Moscow, that uses the city hot-water system. I guessed
    that a "barrel" was 42 gallons from memory, and calibrated the
    flowmeter and wrote it up. The authorities accepted that and I guess
    the hotel is still paying the city based on my math. [1]

    How much is a "pinch" of tarragon? Probably not enough.

    Popular units of measurement here are "football fields" and "Olympic
    swimming pools."

    [1] Most buildings in Moscow were unmetered. When a room got too hot
    in the winter, people just opened a window.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Grant Taylor on Sat Jun 15 20:51:43 2024
    On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
    protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.

    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
    plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the
    breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
    circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
    wire so you need fuses in plugs.  One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s).  Much like how
    you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V domestic
    load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot
    in a dual hot cord.


    I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to bud-- on Sat Jun 15 22:23:30 2024
    "bud--" <null@void.com> wrote in message news:lBrbO.17569$iz_6.16993@fx14.iad...
    On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A. >>
    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to
    where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
    cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240
    V domestic load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.


    I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

    When I was growing up it was 240V live-neutral.
    And changing to 230V would have been unthinkable due to the number of "why has my TV picture width shrunk" complaints which would
    have occurred.
    I may have heard the word "hot" in other contexts but not for AC power.
    Also, some wiring installations still existed with live (hot) in red, neutral in black and earth (ground) in green.

    It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
    And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

    In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
    Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sun Jun 16 07:39:51 2024
    On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "bud--" <null@void.com> wrote in message news:lBrbO.17569$iz_6.16993@fx14.iad...
    On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A. >>>
    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to
    where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
    cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240
    V domestic load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.


    I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

    When I was growing up it was 240V live-neutral.
    And changing to 230V would have been unthinkable due to the number of "why has my TV picture width shrunk" complaints which would
    have occurred.
    I may have heard the word "hot" in other contexts but not for AC power.
    Also, some wiring installations still existed with live (hot) in red, neutral in black and earth (ground) in green.

    They still exist in older buildings. New wiring with that old code is
    not allowed.

    It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
    And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

    No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and
    255vac depending on where you are and local loading. Our mains was
    sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single line rural feeds are higher
    near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.

    In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
    Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 16 03:26:07 2024
    On 6/16/2024 1:19 AM, TTman wrote:


    <https://www.universalsecuritystore.com/store/images/products/large_images/usb2r2wh20a36-usi-electric-20-amp-usb-charger-duplex-wall-outlet-2.jpg>

    We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.

    I'm not sure if this is a good, long-term solution (if you already have
    an abundance of outlets, already) as a failure in that charger now requires >> the outlet to be replaced (instead of just unplugging and discarding a small >> plug-in charger)

    And, as most outlets (in rooms other than the kitchen) are located just
    above the floor level, the value of them in those places is dubious
    (do you have a surface nearby on which you could set the device(s)
    being charged?)

    UK regs now dictate the minimum height at which a power outlet can be located.That is 450 mm   ( In the very old days, they were screwed to the skirting board!)

    Outlets servicing the (kitchen) countertop have constraints on their
    placement (e.g., nothing "facing upwards", most within 12" from the top
    surface of the counter (anything 12" or more BELOW the counter is not
    counted as satisfying the requirement for countertop servicing). And,
    anything more than 18" above is similarly not counted. (The goal is
    to be able to reach these outlets with the short power cords typically encountered on "small appliances".)

    Whereas outlets in the house tend to be (closer than) ~12 ft apart,
    this is tightened to ~4 ft on counters (because small appliances
    tend to have ~24" cords but "floor lamps" will have 6 ft cords)
    They also need to be GFCI protected and support at least two 20A
    circuits.

    You can buy some that will "pop up" out of the counter surface to expose receptacles.

    <https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2052/0581/products/PUR20-BK_open01-min_1400x.jpg>

    <https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/hb-sbox-pop-up-outlet-1562097035.png>

    <https://www.contemporist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/pop-up-outlets_131016_03-800x1086.jpg>

    (I don't like perforating the counter as spills are something that should be
    of concern.)

    You can also find outlets in the floor (something I also dislike!).

    But, most other outlets are located about a foot above the floor
    (the length of a carpenter's hammer makes a good measuring stick
    for outlet placement).

    Light switches are about 42 inches above floor level (where practical).

    [Those above kitchen counters would be located similarly to receptacles]

    Non-mains wiring doesn't need to follow the same sorts of wiring constraints. E.g., you may find a length of RG6 (CATV or antenna feed) poking into a room (from the outside of the residence!) through a hole bored in the wall without benefit of a junction box or "wall plate". Ditto for telephone or network cabling.

    This might be "dressed up" with a wall plate -- but, that is not backed by
    a real junction box (instead, the wall plate is affixed to the drywall
    and just gives the appearance of being a "real" electric box).

    [Of course, you can also have a real junction box -- plastic or metal -- to support the wall plate but this adds cost/complexity.]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 16 13:37:15 2024
    On 16/06/2024 09:34, TTman wrote:


    There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
    last year:
    "Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
    to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
    GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷
    3.6"
    That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
    the calculation was:
    146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)

    The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the
    source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
    cubic metre.

    The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
    electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.

    ??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
    electric heating is 100% efficient!

    There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
    CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
    keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.

    Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
    from 2025 (probably?). See
    <https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>

    I don't think the gas ban will ever happen... At least, not until the UK becomes 100% totally self sufficient in green/renewable i.e. solar/wind/nuclear.It's a bit ilke the electric car situation.. It will
    be 50+ years before there are no IC cars. Jeff- Have you considered
    switching to Octopus Energy and get on their tracker/Agile tariffs? I'm
    from the UK..

    It will happen, but not for years (unless The Greens get in, when we'll
    all be freezing in the dark...).

    The Agile tariff is of no interest (no EV, solar, battery). Tracker is
    of more relevance, but I'm not a smart meter advocate, nor do I pay
    anything by DD (I think it might be possible to pay by non-DD with
    Octopus's agreement as per their T&C, but I'm not sure). I'll probably
    revisit the subject in a year or so.

    --
    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to bud-- on Sun Jun 16 09:44:27 2024
    On 6/15/24 7:51 PM, bud-- wrote:
    On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
    protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the
    U.S.A.

    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
    plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where
    I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to
    the breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
    circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
    wire so you need fuses in plugs.  One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s).  Much like
    how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V
    domestic load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other
    hot in a dual hot cord.


    I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?



    Sort of;

    The UK is traditionally 240V along with many other UK influenced
    countries such as Australia. While mainland Europe was 230V.

    To achieve a common standard without any physical changes the tolerances
    are asymmetric at 230V +10%/-6%. (As of 2022 the standard has now been
    widened to be 230V +10%/-10%).

    The UK is normally described as having 240V AC power.

    kw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Jun 16 14:37:26 2024
    "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v4m1bn$3ub3e$1@dont-email.me...
    On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "bud--" <null@void.com> wrote in message news:lBrbO.17569$iz_6.16993@fx14.iad...
    On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A. >>>>
    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close
    to
    where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
    cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a
    240
    V domestic load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.


    I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?

    When I was growing up it was 240V live-neutral.
    And changing to 230V would have been unthinkable due to the number of "why has my TV picture width shrunk" complaints which would
    have occurred.
    I may have heard the word "hot" in other contexts but not for AC power.
    Also, some wiring installations still existed with live (hot) in red, neutral in black and earth (ground) in green.

    They still exist in older buildings. New wiring with that old code is not allowed.

    It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
    And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

    No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.

    Ok. Most of the all country power adapters I have are labeled 100-240V 50-60 Hz so I hope they were designed for up to 255V.

    Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
    line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.

    In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
    Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.

    --
    Martin Brown


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 16 11:32:55 2024
    On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
    On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that.  And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
    a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>
    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>> were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. >>
    So, they fit *into* the wall?  Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
    routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    *TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

    A brick home (here) would tend to have internal drywall walls (or plaster
    on lath) furred out off of the exterior brick. The distance between
    brick and drywall can vary (depending on quality of insulation).

    Here, for example, the gap behind the drywall is about an inch (no insulation other than a vapor barrier). So, outlets (and other junction boxes) in walls that are along the outside of the building are notched into the brick *behind* (outside of) the drywall.

    Some lower quality builds (e.g., apartment houses) may just have block walls that are painted (cosmetics) so the interior and exterior are separated
    solely by the block wall.

    Non-living spaces (garages) often have surface mounted junction boxes with cables interconnecting them run through EMT (or, rigid conduit for some commercial establishments). But, residences have minimal requirements
    for electric service *in* the garage (and, power for a garage door opener
    will be overhead so no need to deal with a block wall to install that wiring)

    Here, for example, I have several retractable extension cords ("cord reel") mounted on the ceiling with the receptacle ends just above head height.
    So, you can bull a cord down to address your needs. This lets me have
    a lot of outlets as well as freeing up the wall space for shelving (instead
    of having to maintain access to a wall-mounted receptacle).

    <https://www.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/16M8845-40.jpg>

    [Mine are rescues from some hospital equipment where the plug end
    was the retractable portion -- roll the device up to the patient's
    bedside, pull out plug and extend cord to reach a nearby outlet.
    I simply swapped the functions of the fixed and extendable ends]

    Newer houses have internal stud walls built from 4x2
    and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy to fit on that. By sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is screwed by way of 2 screws.

    What you seem to call a socket we would call a junction box (Jbox).
    These come in different sizes/configurations/mountings and are
    made of metal or plastic (older ones were made of bakelite). E.g.,
    a box intended to be installed in a masonry wall is designed to be
    "mudded" in place:

    <https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/9731e951-f1f7-4ca2-b055-b0d1c9145d1c/svn/raco-boxes-brackets-696-64_1000.jpg>

    vs. a regular 2G box:

    <https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/27083703-2b11-4b7b-ab61-34a32d80e2ee_1.d61079d669dce88b1fcd12da5222a77c.jpeg>

    <https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-switch-and-junction-boxes-1824666>

    The wiring (and wired "device" -- switch/outlet) is intended to be
    entirely contained within the box. There are rules for the size of the box required for the "stuff" that will be contained within (wire, clamps,
    wirenuts, devices, etc.)

    [I like metal boxes as you can remove/reinstall the devices without
    fear of "stripping" the plastic into which they are fastened. I
    also like oversized boxes so their contents aren't cramped/overstuffed.]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 16 14:46:29 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
    On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
    a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>>
    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>>> were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. >>>
    So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
    routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    *TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
    Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
    The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).


    A brick home (here) would tend to have internal drywall walls (or plaster
    on lath) furred out off of the exterior brick. The distance between
    brick and drywall can vary (depending on quality of insulation).

    Here, for example, the gap behind the drywall is about an inch (no insulation other than a vapor barrier). So, outlets (and other junction boxes) in walls that are along the outside of the building are notched into the brick *behind*
    (outside of) the drywall.

    Some lower quality builds (e.g., apartment houses) may just have block walls that are painted (cosmetics) so the interior and exterior are separated solely by the block wall.

    Non-living spaces (garages) often have surface mounted junction boxes with cables interconnecting them run through EMT (or, rigid conduit for some commercial establishments). But, residences have minimal requirements
    for electric service *in* the garage (and, power for a garage door opener will be overhead so no need to deal with a block wall to install that wiring)

    Here, for example, I have several retractable extension cords ("cord reel") mounted on the ceiling with the receptacle ends just above head height.
    So, you can bull a cord down to address your needs. This lets me have
    a lot of outlets as well as freeing up the wall space for shelving (instead of having to maintain access to a wall-mounted receptacle).

    <https://www.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/16M8845-40.jpg>

    [Mine are rescues from some hospital equipment where the plug end
    was the retractable portion -- roll the device up to the patient's
    bedside, pull out plug and extend cord to reach a nearby outlet.
    I simply swapped the functions of the fixed and extendable ends]

    Newer houses have internal stud walls built from 4x2 and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy to fit on that. By
    sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is screwed by way of 2 screws.

    What you seem to call a socket we would call a junction box (Jbox).
    These come in different sizes/configurations/mountings and are
    made of metal or plastic (older ones were made of bakelite). E.g.,
    a box intended to be installed in a masonry wall is designed to be
    "mudded" in place:

    <https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/9731e951-f1f7-4ca2-b055-b0d1c9145d1c/svn/raco-boxes-brackets-696-64_1000.jpg>

    vs. a regular 2G box:

    <https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/27083703-2b11-4b7b-ab61-34a32d80e2ee_1.d61079d669dce88b1fcd12da5222a77c.jpeg>

    <https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-switch-and-junction-boxes-1824666>

    The wiring (and wired "device" -- switch/outlet) is intended to be
    entirely contained within the box. There are rules for the size of the box required for the "stuff" that will be contained within (wire, clamps, wirenuts, devices, etc.)

    [I like metal boxes as you can remove/reinstall the devices without
    fear of "stripping" the plastic into which they are fastened. I
    also like oversized boxes so their contents aren't cramped/overstuffed.]


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to TTman on Sun Jun 16 13:17:50 2024
    On 6/16/2024 1:26 AM, TTman wrote:
    Many houses have natural gas central heating to heat water filled radiators. Some apartments/ blocks of flats usually have electric night storage radiators.
    Current 'normal' electric costs ~23p/kWh. My 4 bed detached house ( we're

    Our regular tariff has DELIVERED electricity running about 15c/KWHr. The electrons cost about 4c but add another 10c to get them to your home!

    There are additional taxes, surcharges, "meter" charge (for the "privilege"
    of being able to receive electricity), etc. Last month's 640KWHr cost us
    $130. This will likely climb to ~1500KWHr this month and for the next
    few months (air conditioning is a HUGE electrical load -- it drops to 80F around midnight and is up above that shortly after sunrise)

    But, we also are not particularly good at conserving energy; I bake a
    couple of times each week, all of our meals are hot, a gallon of hot water
    for tea each day, a 16cu ft freezer (in the garage! :< ) and 20 cu ft refrigerator, at least one TV on most of the day, etc.

    [I abhor *cooking* with gas so gas is just DHW and GFA.]

    Plus, all of the "vampire" loads -- the cordless phones, cell phones,
    ereaders and tablets, TVs and HiFis, microwave oven, stove, refrigerator, dishwasher, washer, dryer, a dozen UPSs, 15 monitors, at least three
    computers in use (plus others "sleeping"), modem, router, amplified
    speakers, DVR, media tank, garage door opener, clocks, printers, scanners,
    etc. Nothing has a "hard" power switch, anymore (even the damn fans have "remotes"!).

    retired) used to use 270 kWh/month. total cost then was around £90/month including 5% vat. We also have to pay a 'standing charge' of 60p /day ( robbery

    Our "meter charge" is $15/mo. There are 7 different "taxes".

    charge). I now have solar + 9.5kW battery . Summer months I'm a net exporter. Winter my bills are tiny. I import cheap overnight ( somtimes I get paid to import!) ~10p/kWh and runn off the battery all day . On a sunny day, I import less the following morning.

    Here, the load needs to be addressed more than the supply. E.g., the ACbrrr
    is ~14KW and runs at ~30% duty cycle. As floor plans here tend to be "open", there is no practical way to reduce the cooling load. With minisplits and intelligent controls, we could conceivably arrange to shift the active load
    to different rooms to keep our peak load below whatever an array could
    deliver (most seem to be 6KW to 10KW arrays and, obviously, don't help with your late day/overnight cooling loads!)

    But, minisplits are so "industrial" looking. When someone comes up with
    a way to retrofit the evaporators to the individual *vents* (running the plumbing through the existing ducts), then they will see more residential use (beyond just in garages).

    Any surplus that you deliver to the grid would be compensated at 5c/KWHr
    (the value of the electrons!) and purchased BACK from them at ~20c (taxes
    and fees) when the sun has set.

    I.e., every day you would consume all of your stored charge plus more!

    (Our two "all electric" neighbors see $300+ monthly bills every month -- and complain about how cold their houses are (heat pumps) in the MILD winter)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sun Jun 16 13:20:21 2024
    On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
    On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking; >>>>>> a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>>>
    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>>>> were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

    So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
    routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    *TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
    Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
    The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).

    Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support the plaster?

    How do you hang pictures?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Gregory@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Sun Jun 16 21:24:24 2024
    On 10/06/2024 08:00, Jeff Layman wrote:
    From
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30 September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
    and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
    lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
    who supplies the power.

    I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
    a lot more information there.

    Outside the UK you'll probably get redirected to: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58090533

    --
    Brian Gregory (in England).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 16 17:03:52 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v4nhe7$79i4$3@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
    On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
    Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking; >>>>>>> a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>>>>
    Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>>>>> were "on" the wall (?)

    In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.

    So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and >>>>> routed to the outlet(s) from within?

    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    *TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
    Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
    The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).

    Directly onto the brick surface?

    Yes

    Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
    the plaster?

    I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster


    How do you hang pictures?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wall+plug (not the electrical kind)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plug

    That mentions Rawlplug which I can remember.

    It's likely that plasterboard (drywall) is more popular now.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 16:22:56 2024
    On 6/16/2024 10:44 AM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    On 6/15/24 7:51 PM, bud-- wrote:
    On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
    As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and
    need protection.

    Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the
    U.S.A.

    I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
    plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where
    I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to
    the breaker panel.

    Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
    circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
    wire so you need fuses in plugs.  One fuse?

    I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s).  Much like
    how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V
    domestic load in the U.S.A.

    Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other
    hot in a dual hot cord.


    I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?



    Sort of;

    The UK is traditionally 240V along with many other UK influenced
    countries such as Australia. While mainland Europe was 230V.

    To achieve a common standard without any physical changes the tolerances
    are asymmetric at 230V +10%/-6%. (As of 2022 the standard has now been widened to be 230V +10%/-10%).

    The UK is normally described as having 240V AC power.

    kw

    230-240 is irrelevant. The point was UK is is
    hot(live/whatever)-neutral, not hot-hot. And the fused plugs likely have
    one fuse, not two. You don't want to fuse the neutral.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sun Jun 16 22:44:35 2024
    Edward Rawde <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:v4nhe7$79i4$3@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    [...]

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall. Our house was like that, and there was
    no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the
    UK). The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers
    (people who do the plastering).

    Directly onto the brick surface?

    Yes

    Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
    the plaster?

    I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster

    It does go directly onto the bricks but not as one single layer.

    Usually a bonding layer of coarse plaster is applied first. Before it
    is dry, to assist the bonding to the next layer, the surface is
    scratched all over with a series of light marks, like criss-crosses,
    made with the point of a trowel. After that first layer has set-off,
    the second 'finishing' coat is applied. That is a much finer-grained
    plaster and can be smoothed to a mirror finish by a skilled plasterer.

    To assist in keeping the surface level, wooden battens are sometimes
    tacked to the brickwork first, to give a series of parallel surfaces.
    Once the bulk of the coarse plaster has been put on it can be levelled
    by scraping with a straight-edge laid across the battens. Then the
    battens are dug out and the channels which remain are filled with
    plaster. Thin galvanised steel angle sections can be used on
    outward-facing corners; these are provided with expanded metal edges
    which key into the plaster, so they are left in place.

    All this work has to be done at high speed because the freshly-mixed
    plaster thickens-up quite quickly and becomes difficult to work. Its
    workable life can be extended to a limited extent by adding a little
    more water and 'beating it up', but that is not good practice.
    .

    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sun Jun 16 14:49:13 2024
    On 6/16/2024 2:03 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
    the plaster?

    I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster

    Hmmm, interesting. Here, a "real" plaster wall would be applied over lath <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath>

    But, modern homes now use skim-coated drywall; the drywall has a kraft-paper coating so the (thin) coat of plaster acts as a more pleasing (and less porous) veneer.

    Here (desert southwest), its hard to find folks who will do "smooth"; instead, walls are textured (to hide the imperfections of taped joints, etc.)

    How do you hang pictures?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wall+plug (not the electrical kind)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plug

    That mentions Rawlplug which I can remember.

    Ah, an anchor. That suggests your plaster is relatively thick. By contrast,
    a skim coat is a few mm thick -- though the drywall adds another half inch behind that before you encounter a stud.

    Still, the preferred means of hanging loads off walls is to find stud(s)
    to carry the load. E.g., a large painting, a TV, etc.

    [Growing up, our walls were plaster so you had to be 103% sure of the
    desired placements of any hangings! No "unnecessary" holes in the plaster
    that would require patching/repainting!]

    It's likely that plasterboard (drywall) is more popular now.

    It is used for walls and ceilings, here. Relatively inexpensive to buy
    and install ($1/sq ft).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 17 15:16:56 2024
    On 16/06/2024 21:20, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:

    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4"
    thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity
    (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    *TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
    Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or
    plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
    The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people
    who do the plastering).

    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely. Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with two walls of
    4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern build the cavity
    is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the inner skin is of
    much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is proper brick.

    There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
    older originally air gap based insulation buildings.

    There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
    Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904

    Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!

    My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
    size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
    Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
    there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
    drills snatch.

    Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process and
    had to go off and buy another to finish the job.

    Directly onto the brick surface?  Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
    the plaster?

    Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most
    houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey
    one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim
    3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand.
    Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as does making
    it stick to a ceiling!)

    Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork).
    The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick
    where the kitchen range used to be.

    How do you hang pictures?

    Houses this old tend to have curtain rails and sometimes as is the case
    in my house a dado rail at furniture height in addition. eg.

    https://www.thevictorianemporium.com/store/category/dado_rails

    It is coming back into fashion.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Mon Jun 17 15:57:13 2024
    On 16/06/2024 19:37, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v4m1bn$3ub3e$1@dont-email.me...
    On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:

    It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
    And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

    No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.

    Ok. Most of the all country power adapters I have are labeled 100-240V 50-60 Hz so I hope they were designed for up to 255V.

    They get around it by having an asymmetric error band on the nominal UK
    230v supply of -6% +10% (in practice roughly centred on 240v). Cheap US
    kit made for 60Hz sometimes has transformers that saturate on UK 50Hz.

    I recall some cheap and nasty US made razors that depend on a 60Hz
    mechanical resonance to work so that in the UK at 50Hz they are next to useless.

    Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
    line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.

    The lowest I have ever seen my mains voltage was just under 200v when
    one of the three phases had gone down (not my phase). I didn't notice at
    all until I tried to boil the kettle because almost everything these
    days is so voltage tolerant. LED light bulbs just draw more current so
    do computers and their displays.

    Incandescent bulbs were really dim on that low voltage (I still have one
    or two in seldom used locations).

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Mon Jun 17 08:57:18 2024
    On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 15:16:56 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 16/06/2024 21:20, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
    On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:

    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4"
    thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity
    (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    *TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
    Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or
    plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
    The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people
    who do the plastering).

    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely. Anything >habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with two walls of
    4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern build the cavity
    is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the inner skin is of
    much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is proper brick.

    There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
    older originally air gap based insulation buildings.

    There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
    Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice! >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904

    Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!

    My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
    size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
    Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
    there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
    drills snatch.

    Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process and
    had to go off and buy another to finish the job.

    Directly onto the brick surface?  Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to
    support
    the plaster?

    Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most
    houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey
    one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim
    3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand.
    Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as does making
    it stick to a ceiling!)

    Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork).
    The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick
    where the kitchen range used to be.

    How do you hang pictures?

    Houses this old tend to have curtain rails and sometimes as is the case
    in my house a dado rail at furniture height in addition. eg.

    https://www.thevictorianemporium.com/store/category/dado_rails

    It is coming back into fashion.

    Some buildings here had plywood finished with bricks. They would lay a
    row of bricks, add a few nails into the wood along the top of the
    bricks, and add mortar and another row of bricks.

    In our old art-Deco place on Judah Street, in the 1989 earthquake,
    there was a 4-story apartment building next door, and all 4 floors of
    bricks peeled off and hit the sidewalk. By some miracle, nobody was
    walking there at the time. One brick could have been lethal.

    The main killers in the '89 quake were the freeway collapse in Oakland
    and bricks in SF.

    (Google maps, 320 Judah Street, San Francisco, Street View. The
    apartment to the right is shod in wood now.)

    East Coast cities rarely have quakes, but a place like Boston or NYC
    will be rubble when they do.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Jun 17 10:54:41 2024
    On 6/17/2024 7:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) >>>>> and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") >>>>> between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    ------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely. Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with two walls of 4" brick and some
    rigid metal ties between them. Modern build the cavity is typically filled with
    rockwool or PU foam and the inner skin is of much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is proper brick.

    There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these older originally air gap based insulation buildings.

    There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties! Or worse
    deliberately left them out because of bad practice! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904

    Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!

    My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since there are enough nice
    round flints in the brick clay matrix to make drills snatch.

    Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process and had to
    go off and buy another to finish the job.

    So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space? Resting on <something>
    as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the distant end?

    When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the
    room? Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
    the ceiling directly above the point on the wall? Or, would the wire
    drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?

    If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into the existing wiring? Or, would you have to start back at the load center?

    Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within a few inches of its termination.

    Directly onto the brick surface?  Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
    the plaster?

    Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim 3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand. Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as does making it stick to a ceiling!)

    Yes, most folks have decided this level of detail isn't important in their homes. Here, it is (now) done with powered rotary sanders to "level off" the "excess" plaster in the skim coat (as most homes are plaster over drywall).

    Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork). The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick where the kitchen range used to be.

    Metal ductwork creates a similar problem, here.

    How do you hang pictures?

    Houses this old tend to have curtain rails and sometimes as is the case in my house a dado rail at furniture height in addition. eg.

    https://www.thevictorianemporium.com/store/category/dado_rails

    It is coming back into fashion.

    Yes, we've installed them here (because I don't want to be perpetually bothered with hanging yet another painting in someplace that's not quite EXACTLY where a previous one had hung :< )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Jun 17 10:59:21 2024
    On 6/17/2024 7:57 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    Incandescent bulbs were really dim on that low voltage (I still have one or two
    in seldom used locations).

    We've intentionally kept incandescent bulbs in some of the larger living areas. We use "commercial" (130V) rated bulbs at the next higher wattage (e.g., 75W for 60W) to get comparable light output. But, the big advantage is getting really *low* light levels via dimmers. This just isn't possible with LED lights (even "dimmable" and with "LED dimmers").

    (We can, for example, turn the lighting throughout the house down to its absolute minimum and you'd not realize the lights were *on* until it was pitch black in the house; then, everything would be very dimly lit -- great when
    we have guests over and don't want them to trip over things or miss the step *down* into the living room, etc.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Jun 17 22:41:08 2024
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.

    I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
    built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
    area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
    though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working
    families.

    The actual materials were a very poor quality local brick for the
    interior wall and Bath Stone (Oolite) for the outer. The courses were
    laid with gas slag mortar, which was made in a pug mill on site from
    lime and the residue from the local gasworks.

    During WWI a bomb went off near one of the terraces and the shock wave propagated through the clay soil, jarring dozens of houses. The houses appeared not to be too badly damaged and the cracked mortar joints soon repaired themselves (mortar is self-healing). A decade later it was
    noticed that a lot of them were suffering from rising damp. The shock
    of the bomb had dislodged the mortar 'snots' on the cavity side of each
    wall, they fell down to the bottom of the cavity and filled it to a
    level which bridged the damp course with a load of porous wet material.

    The builders had provided air vents on the outside and omitted
    corresponding bricks in the inner wall, to increase the underfloor air circulation. I found it was possible to worm my way along under the
    floor, reach into the cavity through the missing brick holes and pull
    out bucketloads of the wet material by hand. It was a very unpleasant
    job but it solved the damp problem.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Jun 17 21:35:20 2024
    "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v4pis9$n93f$2@dont-email.me...
    On 16/06/2024 19:37, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v4m1bn$3ub3e$1@dont-email.me...
    On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:

    It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
    And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.

    No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.

    Ok. Most of the all country power adapters I have are labeled 100-240V 50-60 Hz so I hope they were designed for up to 255V.

    They get around it by having an asymmetric error band on the nominal UK 230v supply of -6% +10% (in practice roughly centred on
    240v). Cheap US kit made for 60Hz sometimes has transformers that saturate on UK 50Hz.

    I recall some cheap and nasty US made razors that depend on a 60Hz mechanical resonance to work so that in the UK at 50Hz they are
    next to useless.

    That reminds me of a time when I was working in the US and a friend from the UK came to stay.
    His razor came with various adapter cords but none would fit any outlet we could find.
    So we went to radio shack and bought a cable which did fit a local outlet.
    The we cut and joined two of the cables together to make the necessary adapter cord.
    Then we found that his razor still didn't work because it was designed for 50Hz resonance.


    Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
    line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.

    The lowest I have ever seen my mains voltage was just under 200v when one of the three phases had gone down (not my phase). I
    didn't notice at all until I tried to boil the kettle because almost everything these days is so voltage tolerant. LED light bulbs
    just draw more current so do computers and their displays.

    Incandescent bulbs were really dim on that low voltage (I still have one or two in seldom used locations).

    --
    Martin Brown


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 17 22:08:19 2024
    On 6/17/2024 11:54 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/17/2024 7:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
    Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with
    two walls of 4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern
    build the cavity is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the
    inner skin is of much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is
    proper brick.

    There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
    older originally air gap based insulation buildings.

    There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
    Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904

    Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!

    My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
    size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
    Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
    there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
    drills snatch.

    Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process
    and had to go off and buy another to finish the job.

    So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space?  Resting on
    <something>
    as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the
    distant end?

    When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the room?  Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
    the ceiling directly above the point on the wall?  Or, would the wire
    drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?

    If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into
    the
    existing wiring?  Or, would you have to start back at the load center?

    Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
    a few inches of its termination.


    That is new construction. Adding, for instance, a receptacle to a
    finished wall - studs with finish surface on both sides - the wire can
    be 'fished' in the wall without supports. Similarly in other closed
    spaces. You can extend from an existing box, but that may not be easy.
    May involve making a small hole that is then patched. Fishing may also
    involve holes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jun 18 10:28:49 2024
    On 17/06/2024 18:54, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/17/2024 7:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4"
    thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
    power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity
    (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.

    ------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
    Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with
    two walls of 4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern
    build the cavity is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the
    inner skin is of much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is
    proper brick.

    There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
    older originally air gap based insulation buildings.

    There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
    Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904

    Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!

    My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
    size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
    Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
    there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
    drills snatch.

    Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process
    and had to go off and buy another to finish the job.

    So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space?  Resting on
    <something>
    as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the
    distant end?

    Remember that the void has steel wall ties about every 18" in each
    direction so the cables are resting on them but not tied down. They are
    fairly rigid so don't move once they are installed.

    When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the room?  Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
    the ceiling directly above the point on the wall?  Or, would the wire
    drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?

    Convention is that most horizontal wiring is out of sight under the
    floor above or on the surface of timbers in the loft. In theory I think
    the code requires them to be anchored every couple of feet. In practice
    I have seen plenty of loose wires straggling across spaces (and even
    more horrific plumbing mistakes). In older homes where electricity was a
    later addition the cables are often buried in the plasterwork. Modern
    build they tend to be inside stud walls or the cavity. I've never looked
    to see how they do it but I'm pretty sure the brickies build the walls
    and the sparks only move in when the house is watertight with a roof on.

    If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into
    the
    existing wiring?  Or, would you have to start back at the load center?

    You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a ring
    main isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.

    Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
    a few inches of its termination.

    In theory I think that is true in the UK too and most of it is. But not
    all installers are diligent and building inspections these days are
    cursory to non-existent.

    Directly onto the brick surface?  Or, was lath/chickenwire installed
    to support
    the plaster?

    Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most
    houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse
    grey one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin
    skim 3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great
    demand. Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as
    does making it stick to a ceiling!)

    Yes, most folks have decided this level of detail isn't important in their homes.   Here, it is (now) done with powered rotary sanders to "level
    off" the
    "excess" plaster in the skim coat (as most homes are plaster over drywall).

    It is amazing to watch a good plasterer at work.
    Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the
    brickwork). The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about
    4' thick where the kitchen range used to be.

    Metal ductwork creates a similar problem, here.

    Foil coated foam insulation is another common Wifi blocker too.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Tue Jun 18 17:12:55 2024
    On 17/06/2024 22:41, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.

    I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
    built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
    area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
    though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working
    families.

    That is early for cavity walls. It is possible that in cities the larger builders doing big projects used it sooner than those out in the sticks.

    Stuff built as late as 1910 in my vicinity of North Yorks (and by a
    respected landowner and ironmaster) are all solid wall construction in
    best quality Edwardian high fired brick. It was and still is a model
    Edwardian village - architects still come here to study.

    Mostly Grade II listed buildings too so any improvements have to be done
    very very carefully to preserve the external appearance.

    The really expensive landed gentry properties here are in grit stone or sandstone (which is slightly porous so not an ideal building material).

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Tue Jun 18 10:12:18 2024
    On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:41:08 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.

    I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
    built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
    area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
    though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working
    families.

    The actual materials were a very poor quality local brick for the
    interior wall and Bath Stone (Oolite) for the outer. The courses were
    laid with gas slag mortar, which was made in a pug mill on site from
    lime and the residue from the local gasworks.

    During WWI a bomb went off near one of the terraces and the shock wave >propagated through the clay soil, jarring dozens of houses. The houses >appeared not to be too badly damaged and the cracked mortar joints soon >repaired themselves (mortar is self-healing). A decade later it was
    noticed that a lot of them were suffering from rising damp. The shock
    of the bomb had dislodged the mortar 'snots' on the cavity side of each
    wall, they fell down to the bottom of the cavity and filled it to a
    level which bridged the damp course with a load of porous wet material.

    The builders had provided air vents on the outside and omitted
    corresponding bricks in the inner wall, to increase the underfloor air >circulation. I found it was possible to worm my way along under the
    floor, reach into the cavity through the missing brick holes and pull
    out bucketloads of the wet material by hand. It was a very unpleasant
    job but it solved the damp problem.

    My old Victorian, built in 1892, had walls made of 2x4 studs (is that
    a cavity wall?) with lath and plaster, some rooms updated to drywall.
    No insulation. Knob and tube wiring.

    The foundation and chimney were brick. The mortar was probably mixed
    with sea water, and the salt leached out so the mortar could be
    removed with a fingernail.

    The chimney crumbled in the 1989 quake so I took it apart a brick at a
    time and left a nice open skylight in the kitchen.

    Zillow says it's worth 21 times what I paid for it.

    https://www.zillow.com/homes/166-Highland-Ave-San-Francisco,-CA-94110_rb/15163637_zpid/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Jun 18 20:57:20 2024
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 17/06/2024 22:41, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
    around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.

    I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
    built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
    area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
    though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working families.

    That is early for cavity walls. It is possible that in cities the larger builders doing big projects used it sooner than those out in the sticks.

    I suspect there may have been another reason:

    A Midlands industrialist bought the land and made his money selling it
    off in small parcels for local builders to develop . The area was exceptionally rich in clay and, as part of the speculation, he also
    established and operated a brick & tile works.

    Brick houses would not have sold well in Bath (they may even have been
    banned under planning laws) so the appearance of the houses had to be
    Bath Stone, which already supported a considerable quarrying industry in
    the surrounding area. By making the houses with a cavity wall, the
    outer appearance could be expensive Bath Stone and the inner structure
    local brick (of atrocious quality), thereby keeping the price down and supporting both industries.

    I suspect there may have been some coercion clause in the building
    contracts to force the use of local brick, because I know of no other
    areas in Bath where the builders used it voluntarily.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Jun 18 13:18:33 2024
    On 6/18/2024 2:28 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space?  Resting on <something>
    as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the distant end?

    Remember that the void has steel wall ties about every 18" in each direction so
    the cables are resting on them but not tied down. They are fairly rigid so don't move once they are installed.

    But, gravity only exploits those for lateral support. What about a wire traveling down to an outlet or switch "from above"? I don't imagine those are manually secured to those ties?

    When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the
    room?  Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
    the ceiling directly above the point on the wall?  Or, would the wire
    drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?

    Convention is that most horizontal wiring is out of sight under the floor above
    or on the surface of timbers in the loft. In theory I think the code requires them to be anchored every couple of feet. In practice I have seen plenty of loose wires straggling across spaces (and even more horrific plumbing mistakes). In older homes where electricity was a later addition the cables are
    often buried in the plasterwork. Modern build they tend to be inside stud walls
    or the cavity. I've never looked to see how they do it but I'm pretty sure the
    brickies build the walls and the sparks only move in when the house is watertight with a roof on.

    In a framed wall, it would be common for a wire to travel laterally through holes bored in the intervening studs. E.g., the cable feeding an outlet (about a foot off the floor) would likely come from (or travel off to) another outlet AT (slightly above) that ~12 inch height. This saves wire as the wire doesn't have to climb to above the ceiling or dive to below the floor to make it's next connection.

    There are rules governing WHERE the wire can penetrate the framing as it is likely that occupants (with no awareness of where wires actually are run) can opt to drive nails/fasteners into the wall at any point and potentially encounter a cable (imagine a partial short creating a fire hazard inside the wall)

    If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into the >> existing wiring?  Or, would you have to start back at the load center?

    You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a ring main isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.

    Nut how, physically, do you do this, given that the existing wire is in this "cavity" AND any new wire would also have to be "threaded" through it? Here, worst case, you cut a hole in the drywall, fish the wire through and then patch/paint the hole.

    Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
    a few inches of its termination.

    In theory I think that is true in the UK too and most of it is. But not all installers are diligent and building inspections these days are cursory to non-existent.

    Directly onto the brick surface?  Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to >>>> support
    the plaster?

    Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most houses >>> they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey one with >>> horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim 3-5mm of pink >>> plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand. Polishing it to a fine >>> flat finish requires real skill (as does making it stick to a ceiling!)

    Yes, most folks have decided this level of detail isn't important in their >> homes.   Here, it is (now) done with powered rotary sanders to "level off" the
    "excess" plaster in the skim coat (as most homes are plaster over drywall).

    It is amazing to watch a good plasterer at work.

    Here, they are (have been) stereotypically frenchmen.

    Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork). The
    thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick where the >>> kitchen range used to be.

    Metal ductwork creates a similar problem, here.

    Foil coated foam insulation is another common Wifi blocker too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 19 09:42:41 2024
    On 18/06/2024 21:18, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/18/2024 2:28 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space?  Resting on
    <something>
    as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the
    distant end?

    Remember that the void has steel wall ties about every 18" in each
    direction so the cables are resting on them but not tied down. They
    are fairly rigid so don't move once they are installed.

    But, gravity only exploits those for lateral support.  What about a wire traveling down to an outlet or switch "from above"?  I don't imagine
    those are
    manually secured to those ties?

    No but the thickness of the cable and three solid core strands of copper
    make it almost rigid enough to be self supporting for 3' upwards and 3'
    down from above. Add in a bit of friction and it really doesn't move.
    Convention is that most horizontal wiring is out of sight under the
    floor above or on the surface of timbers in the loft. In theory I
    think the code requires them to be anchored every couple of feet. In
    practice I have seen plenty of loose wires straggling across spaces
    (and even more horrific plumbing mistakes). In older homes where
    electricity was a later addition the cables are often buried in the
    plasterwork. Modern build they tend to be inside stud walls or the
    cavity. I've never looked to see how they do it but I'm pretty sure
    the brickies build the walls and the sparks only move in when the
    house is watertight with a roof on.

    In a framed wall, it would be common for a wire to travel laterally through holes bored in the intervening studs.  E.g., the cable feeding an outlet (about
    a foot off the floor) would likely come from (or travel off to) another outlet
    AT (slightly above) that ~12 inch height.  This saves wire as the wire doesn't
    have to climb to above the ceiling or dive to below the floor to make
    it's next
    connection.

    There are rules governing WHERE the wire can penetrate the framing as it is likely that occupants (with no awareness of where wires actually are
    run) can
    opt to drive nails/fasteners into the wall at any point and potentially encounter a cable (imagine a partial short creating a fire hazard inside
    the
    wall)

    Shorts caused by drilling or nailing into a mains cable can and do
    happen here too. At worst it should blow a fuse and at best take down a
    circuit breaker for unbalanced live neutral. Likewise for water pipes
    buried in plasterwork (which are much messier if you hit them with a nail).

    If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie
    into the
    existing wiring?  Or, would you have to start back at the load center?

    You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a
    ring main isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.

    Nut how, physically, do you do this, given that the existing wire is in
    this
    "cavity" AND any new wire would also have to be "threaded" through it?
    Here,
    worst case, you cut a hole in the drywall, fish the wire through and then patch/paint the hole.

    You start from an existing fixture and track the cable back. Easy now
    that there are decent mains wiring detectors not so easy back in the
    70's. The hard part is knocking out the brickwork to make a recess.


    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Jun 19 09:07:02 2024
    On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into the
    existing wiring?  Or, would you have to start back at the load center? >>>
    You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a ring main
    isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.

    Nut how, physically, do you do this, given that the existing wire is in this >> "cavity" AND any new wire would also have to be "threaded" through it? Here, >> worst case, you cut a hole in the drywall, fish the wire through and then
    patch/paint the hole.

    You start from an existing fixture and track the cable back. Easy now that there are decent mains wiring detectors not so easy back in the 70's. The hard
    part is knocking out the brickwork to make a recess.

    But there's no "slack" in the cable to tolerate the cost of INSERTING (ring) another device (?).

    I.e., even if you can find the cable and access it, cutting it to add the new device consumes some of the existing cable's length.

    E.g., here, you would cut the cable and pull the free ends into a new junction box. You'd need at least 6 inches on the end of each cut segment to come into the box where you could connect to a device -- or, add a pigtail that connects to the device.

    So, in practice, you have to replace part of the cable because there is
    note enough slack to meet this additional length of wire necessitated by entering the new junction box -- especially if the box will be above or below the path of the *wire*.

    Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need
    to preserve this "ring". In your case, it seems like you would have to literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 19 13:38:02 2024
    On 6/19/24 9:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    <...>

    Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need
    to preserve this "ring".  In your case, it seems like you would have to literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)


    They are called spurs in UK and are allowed with restrictions.

    https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/your-questions-answered/questions/how-many-spurs-can-i-have-on-a-ring-main/

    kw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Jun 19 22:56:30 2024
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    Shorts caused by drilling or nailing into a mains cable can and do
    happen here too. At worst it should blow a fuse and at best take down a circuit breaker for unbalanced live neutral.

    Even worse is a neutral-earth fault. It may not operate the trip at
    first if the voltage between neutral and earth is very low at the time.
    Later, when the local load increases, the trip operates for no obvious
    reason.

    This has a habit of happening at the most inconvenient times, such as
    just before Sunday lunch when everyone puts their cookers on, or during
    the night when storage heaters switch in. Because all the neutrals are
    solidly connected to a bus bar in the consumer unit, isolating the cause
    of the fault can be a tedious job


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 19 15:02:28 2024
    On 6/19/2024 1:38 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    On 6/19/24 9:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    <...>

    Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need
    to preserve this "ring".  In your case, it seems like you would have to
    literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)


    They are called spurs in UK and are allowed with restrictions.

    https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/your-questions-answered/questions/how-many-spurs-can-i-have-on-a-ring-main/

    But, how do you *access* the wire to do so? Possibly you can gain access INSIDE a box. But, now you have to get your "stub" wire out of the box
    and into the "cavity" and, eventually, over to its destination.

    Here, we can open walls with a "plunge saw" (drywall saw) -- to any level
    of exposure deemed necessary. Then, slip a new piece of drywall (cut to
    that size/shape) in its place and patch.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 19 18:33:14 2024
    On 6/19/24 3:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/19/2024 1:38 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    On 6/19/24 9:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    <...>

    Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need >>> to preserve this "ring".  In your case, it seems like you would have to >>> literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)


    They are called spurs in UK and are allowed with restrictions.

    https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/your-questions-answered/questions/how-many-spurs-can-i-have-on-a-ring-main/

    But, how do you *access* the wire to do so?  Possibly you can gain access INSIDE a box.  But, now you have to get your "stub" wire out of the box
    and into the "cavity" and, eventually, over to its destination.

    Here, we can open walls with a "plunge saw" (drywall saw) -- to any level
    of exposure deemed necessary.  Then, slip a new piece of drywall (cut to that size/shape) in its place and patch.


    From the back of the box you can drill into the cavity, or carve out a
    trench in the surface of the inner wall deep enough to run the cable to
    the next box if the location is close. Plaster over the trench (and
    cable) when finished. I assume that is still allowed, it was many years
    ago that I did that.

    In the house I had in England the inner wall was made of breeze block
    (cinder block) that was soft enough to gouge with a finger nail. Making
    a channel in it was very easy with a masonry chisel. It is more
    difficult if you have to do it in brick, stone or concrete.

    Some houses use pre-cast concrete lintels over windows and doors. The
    concrete is those can be extremely tough and very difficult to drill
    into or chisel out.

    kw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 20 12:48:22 2024
    On 6/19/2024 6:33 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    But, how do you *access* the wire to do so?  Possibly you can gain access >> INSIDE a box.  But, now you have to get your "stub" wire out of the box
    and into the "cavity" and, eventually, over to its destination.

    Here, we can open walls with a "plunge saw" (drywall saw) -- to any level
    of exposure deemed necessary.  Then, slip a new piece of drywall (cut to
    that size/shape) in its place and patch.

    From the back of the box you can drill into the cavity,

    So, the "boxes" aren't deep enough to penetrate the inner wall?
    I.e., the sides of a Jbox intended for use in drywall will have
    places ("knockouts") that are known to be "behind" the drywall
    (inside the wall) for cables to enter/exit the box. Cable clamps
    can be fitted to these points -- if the box doesn't already include
    internal clamps. The depth of a box can be chosen to maximize
    internal working volume ("volume units" required for a particular
    number of conductors, devices, clamps, etc. related to maximum wire
    size used in the box -- a given number of volume units defined
    by those criteria will necessitate a larger box if you move to
    a larger wire size)

    or carve out a trench
    in the surface of the inner wall deep enough to run the cable to the next box if the location is close. Plaster over the trench (and cable) when finished. I
    assume that is still allowed, it was many years ago that I did that.

    That would have to be armored, here, if within ~1.5" of the finished surface
    of the wall (to prevent a nail from penetrating it).

    In the house I had in England the inner wall was made of breeze block (cinder block) that was soft enough to gouge with a finger nail. Making a channel in it
    was very easy with a masonry chisel. It is more difficult if you have to do it
    in brick, stone or concrete.

    We have different densities of "block walls", here. For example, the block wall that supports the 20 ft span for the garage is almost impossible to
    drill (there are *stones* in the concrete mix used to make them which eat
    drill bits)

    Some houses use pre-cast concrete lintels over windows and doors. The concrete
    is those can be extremely tough and very difficult to drill into or chisel out.

    AFAICT, these (wood or steel, here) can't be drilled as that would compromise their integrity. For example, the roof load for much of this house is carried by a few 4x12" (16?) beams. The ceiling joists are intentionally hung off these so that their tops (where the roof attaches) are above the beam. This allows cables to cross the beam without penetrating it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 22 00:53:00 2024
    On 2024-06-16, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
    Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
    The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).

    Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
    the plaster?

    How do you hang pictures?

    On solid walls you use a wall plug if a reglar picture hook (that
    nails into the plaster, brick, or concrete surface) is not sufficient.

    --
    Jasen.
    🇺🇦 Слава Україні

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)