In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom
and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.
Granted, each outlet is rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom
What year?
and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.
Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.
On 6/8/2024 7:07 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom
What year?
No idea. I don't know when particular shows were made or aired -- even domestic (US) content!
and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop.
Not sure what you're asking but a UK power strip can easily handle 3KW.
These were "wall outlets" fixed in place. As the contact arrangement differs from US (larger and different blade orientations), she didn't recognize them as
such.
IIRC (I wasn't watching the show but only called in for a "consult"),
there were two outlets "together", side by side
, and then another
two outlets a fair distance away from those.
We have a small kitchen ("food prep area" as eating and dining areas are elsewhere) but there are 7 duplex receptacles, there -- enough for 14
small appliances scattered along the countertop.
As most such appliances don't require a lot of power (think hand mixer, blender, small TV, etc.), having the ability to power many from the
existing outlets is important. If a "power strip" resembles an
"extension cord", it's use would be discouraged -- hence the requirement
for outlets to be closer together on the countertops than elsewhere
in the house (where I think 12' is the norm).
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
We tend to skimp on the number of socket outlet plates in buildings, but
they are usually doubles, each with its own switch.
There are generally
fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.
We also have socket strips which plug into wall sockets and give four or
six outlets (normally unswitched) for lighter loads. This is helpful
for temporary arrangements where more sockets are needed in a hurry -
but tends to become permanent, leading to a maze of wires behind the furniture. The strip is plugged into a normal wall socket with a fused
plug, so if it is overloaded, the fuse will blow and protect it.
Because the UK voltage is double the US voltage, the UK current is half
the US current for the same power, so our wiring tends to be lighter
gauge but we are much stricter on preventing electric shock.
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v42ndi$2spjg$1@dont-email.me...
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In
addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom
What year?
On 6/8/2024 11:57 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:[...]
There are generally
fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.
Any "major appliances" (stove/oven, dishwasher, refrigerator) tend to
have dedicated outlets (and dedicated circuits). I suspect a
microwave oven would be the most common appliance that is constantly
powered in a US kitchen.
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
... But we
are talking of an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round
pin. BS546 round pin was the more recent and before that Wylex which was
-o- a regional abberration in the region where I grew up.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 6/8/2024 11:57 PM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:[...]
There are generally
fewer electrical gadgets in UK kitchens and those which are used less
often are stored away in cupboards and only brought out and plugged in
when needed, so a smaller number of outlets is usually sufficient.
Any "major appliances" (stove/oven, dishwasher, refrigerator) tend to
have dedicated outlets (and dedicated circuits). I suspect a
microwave oven would be the most common appliance that is constantly
powered in a US kitchen.
Electric cookers are invariably wired-in permanently with their own
dedicated spur from the fuse box or consumer unit. This is because UK cookers have tended to be standalone units with (for intance) four top
rings, a grill and an oven. With everything switched on (such as
preparing Christmas dinner) they can draw over 12 kW.
They must have a two-pole isolating switch located close to, but not
directly above, them. Often these isolators also have a built-in single socket which is handy for an electric kettle or similar appliance that
is used frequently and needs to be kept near the cooker.
In the last 20 years there has been a trend towards separate units in different locations for the various function of a cooker, so some of the lower-power units can be fed from a socket instead of being permanently wired-in.
Refrigerators and microwave ovens will work off a 13 amp socket, so they
are rarely 'plumbed-in' ...but the socket may be located on the wall directly behind them and inacessible unless the appliance is moved out
first.
Washing machines and dishwashers are plumbed-in for water and waste but
they are usually restricted to 3 kW and will therefore work off a 13 amp socket. The arrangement of water hoses, taps and fittings close to a
240v power point is an uncomfortable one, but doesn't seem to cause much trouble in practice.
I heard from a domestic appliance manufacturer with international sales
that the models for America, the UK and Europe differ in the design of
the casing. The American models are designed to make more noise, as
this gives the impression they are powerful. The UK models are quieter
to give the impression of efficiency and the European models are
super-quiet to give the impression of environmental friendliness.
I don't know how true that is, but it is an interesting view on national psychology.
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
That may be a side effect of stage sets not reflecting real life.
Historically you would have to go back to the 1960's or earlier to have as few
as two mains sockets in a UK kitchen. My kitchen has 4x2 outlets above the bench and about 6 under it for fridge/freezer/washer/oven etc.
There certainly was a time when kitchens typically had only one high power socket outlet on the (hard wired in) main cooker switch. But we are talking of
an era before rectangular plugs back when they were round pin. BS546 round pin
was the more recent and before that Wylex which was -o- a regional abberration
in the region where I grew up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
That is no different in most of the UK. Sitcom sets don't always represent real
life. That said you can find older UK kitchens with too few mains sockets. New
build has to have a certain number. Those in regions prone to flooding also have to have them above a certain height.
(historically most were on the skirting board)
It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20AWe mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses >depending.
It has become more of a problem now that everyone has an iToy that needs >>> charging on a daily basis. Trivial loads but many sockets needed.
This -- hence my reference to "number of outlets" and not "power available".
In the UK, it's common now to fit double plug sockets that have built in dual USB outlets that can supply 2A per USB socket.
We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.
Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.
Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high
We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each
Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
the counter/. (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility
over where they can be put into use.
We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. Each
socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker).
All the sockets are wired in a 'ring main' format
to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet.
A kettle will have a typical
power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other main appliances - dish
washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier own separate supplies. Ovens
will be wired using 6mm cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses depending.
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20AWe mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition,
there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>> were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >>> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>> over where they can be put into use.
be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm >>cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses >>depending.
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20AWe mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall.
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>> were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating >>> of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>> over where they can be put into use.
Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will
be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A
kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier
own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
depending.
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick).
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England
were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the
wall.
So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and routed to the outlet(s) from within?
There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs). But, it would typically
not be found in most homes (kitchens). A "Plugmold" product provides similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"
Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
(to protect the wiring). E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
and affords some protections against physical damage.
Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them
surface mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6"
wide x 3"high
As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity, cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)
You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume. A single gang device typically
exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate
On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing betweenWe mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>> we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a >>>> fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>> over where they can be put into use.
supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired
in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other
main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket
in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
depending.
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a >third to one quarter of the cost.
There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower >temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
so that heat loss is reduced.
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences, >weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From ><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30 >September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.
On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
Mostly gas 74% at least in the cities although it is slowly changing to
air source heat pumps (which is a stupid idea in a country where the
coldest months typically have near 100% humidity and hover around 0C).
They ice up with monotonous regularity. Ground source heat pumps are a >slightly better bet.
See for example the census data: >https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9838/#:~:text=Census%202021%20found%20that%2073.8,no%20central%20heating%20and%201.0%25
Where I live gas is not an option but about 80% of the population are on
the national gas grid (and it is by far the cheapest heating option).
Not all of them use it though. Dual fuel from the same supplier gets you
a discount (which isn't available if there is no gas supply).
Snag is consumer electricity prices are linked to the most expensive way
of making the last bit of electricity needed to satisfy demand which has >resulted in insane price increases since the Ukraine invasion. So bad
that the government has had to intervene with price caps.
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
For my house comparatively little despite the large number of gadgets my
base load is only about 100W continuous. We don't have gas so are on
solid fuel (wood/coal) and oil CH which spiked after Ukraine. But OTOH
they were practically giving it away when Covid closed down air travel!
28s kerosene and aviation fuel are almost interchangeable.
On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall andYes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>> were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. >>
routed to the outlet(s) from within?
Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with plastered walls
so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket box into the wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran behind the skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let into that.
There is a product here called "Wiremold" that can be entirely surface
mounted (junction boxes as well as cable runs). But, it would typically
not be found in most homes (kitchens). A "Plugmold" product provides
similarly (permanently) mounted "outlet strips"
Surface mounted boxes are generally used in garages and utility rooms or in positions that are out of sight (like under counters behind fridges).
Basements/garages/exteriors will often have surface mounted junction boxes >> with cable runs in EMT or rigid conduit, usually required by local code
(to protect the wiring). E.g., I run all of my exterior network cabling
in EMT with water-tight fittings as it makes for a cleaner looking installation
and affords some protections against physical damage.
Earlier types protruded around 10mm and before that ( we called them surface
mount) they protruded 25mm-40 mm.Our duplex sockets measure 6" wide x 3"high
As I said, a duplex receptacle would be about 1"x3" and sell for as
little as 77c or as much as ~$10 (QTY 1 -- though most would be purchased
in much larger quantities) depending on the features desired (ampacity,
cosmetics, tamper resistance, etc.)
You can get flush surface mount units but you have to chase that much further into brickwork to fit the it in. The old way with ~10mm protruding was the least worst option and is still common. New build with a lot of stud walling tends to have more modern flush mount.
You can (just barely -- and with many qualifications) install one into
a Jbox of ~10 cu in internal volume. A single gang device typically
exposes a 2x4" opening, covered by a 3.5x5" decorative plate
It takes a while with a chisel to knock a hole big enough for a UK mains socket
out of a wall which is why most remain 10mm out to this day. The plaster tends
to fall off nearby so it is always messy to install one.
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing betweenWe mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired >>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other >>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>>> we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets >>>>> were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address >>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so >>>>> total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >>>>> ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric >>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>>> over where they can be put into use.
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket >>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
depending.
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a
third to one quarter of the cost.
There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All
this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power.
What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation
so that heat loss is reduced.
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.
I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of gas-to-electricity converter machine.
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.
There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.
On 10/06/2024 15:34, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
On 10/06/2024 01:04, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 23:38:28 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A >>>>>> (2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>>>>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between >>>>>> (duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft... >>>>>> we settled on 3').We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the wall. >>>>> Each socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can >>>>> supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there will >>>>> be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker). All the sockets are wired >>>>> in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive volt drops at any outlet. A >>>>> kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw. Other >>>>> main appliances - dish washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier >>>>> own separate supplies. Ovens will be wired using 6mm
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address >>>>>> NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will >>>>>> likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so >>>>>> total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as >>>>>> ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric >>>>>> wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>>>>> over where they can be put into use.
cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be plugged itto a wall socket >>>>> in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with either 3A/5A or 13A fuses
depending.
Our serious heat loads (house central heat, fireplace, water heater,
cooktop, clothes dryer) are natural gas. It's simple and very
reliable. Do brits commonly use gas at home?
Much more so than electricity for heating as it's much cheaper - about a >>> third to one quarter of the cost.
There is a move here to get people to install air-sourced heat pumps
instead which use electricity and are said to provide about the same
heating as gas for a similar cost as they output about 3 - 4kWh of heat
for every 1kWh of electricity they consume (ground-sourced heat pumps
are more efficient but fiendishly expensive and need a lot of land). All >>> this is to support the use of renewable energy from solar or wind power. >>> What is often not made clear is that current heating systems will have
to be replaced almost entirely as ASHP provide heated water at a lower
temperature than the currently-used gas or oil burners do. This
necessitates using much bigger radiators and/or installing underfloor
water heating. And to be added to that is the need for better insulation >>> so that heat loss is reduced.
How much do you pay for electricity in a typical month?
How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls >>> the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.
I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of
gas-to-electricity converter machine.
There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
last year:
"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷ 3.6" >That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
the calculation was:
146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)
The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the >source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
cubic metre.
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.
??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive >electric heating is 100% efficient!
There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.
Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
from 2025 (probably?). See
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>
On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:00:18 +0100, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid><....>
How long is a piece of string? It will depend on personal preferences,
weather conditions, how efficient the heating system is (including
losses), etc. We have a "price cap" in the UK which - sort of - controls
the prices of gas and electricity. From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30
September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.
I wonder how gas can be rated in KWh. That must asssume some sort of gas-to-electricity converter machine.
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.
There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.
On 6/9/2024 3:38 PM, TTman wrote:
On 08/06/2024 23:53, Don Y wrote:
In the US, we are required (new construction) to have two dedicated 20A
(2400W) circuits to service countertop "small appliances". In addition, >>> there is also a requirement for a relatively tight spacing between
(duplex) receptacles -- the intent to keep cords short (IIRC, < 4ft...
we settled on 3').
SWMBO was watching a britcom and commented at how few
receptacles/outlets
were in evidence to serve the countertop. Granted, each outlet is
rated a
fair bit higher than US (each US outlet being 2400W -- the full load
rating
of the branch circuit supporting it). But, still, how do you address
NUMBERS of appliances in use, concurrently -- where each appliance will
likely draw only a fraction of the rated branch circuit's current so
total load isn't an issue?
E.g., we (presently) have a ~1KW microwave oven and a ~1KW toaster as
ever-present loads. To that, it is not uncommon to add an electric
wok, hand or stand mixer, pizzelle iron, etc. The abundance of
outlets makes it easy to add appliances as well as providing flexibility >>> over where they can be put into use.
We mostly fit double outlet sockets 20-30 cm above worktops on the
wall. Each
Jboxes tend to be about a foot above the counter -- /where a wall exists behind
the counter/. (Outlets are required even in the absence of such a wall)
Here, we have 9 individual Jboxes to service the countertops:
- 5 1G boxes with 20A duplex receptacles
- 2 1G boxes with "communications" wiring
- 1 4G box to support a 20A duplex plus switches for garbage disposal, oversink
 lighting and overhead lighting
- 1 2G box to support 20A duplex plus a dual (half-height) switch to power
 the under cabinet lighting circuits
*Below* the level of the counter are the outlets for the stove/oven,
garbage
disposal, dishwasher and refrigerator -- with the microwave oven off on
it's own. These aren't intended to require normal access.
socket ( there can be several spread around the kitchen area) can
supply ( in theory) 30 Amps @ 230V. Back at the main fusebox, there
will be a 30 Amp MCB( miniature contact breaker).
Here, a 20A circuit provides 2400W to the total load on that branch circuit (though each receptacle can individually support a 20A load; loads
exceeding
15A have a different plug configuration making them physically incompatible with the normal 15A receptacles found in other rooms).
The branch circuit is protected in the load center with a 20A circuit
breaker (GFCIs in our case to eliminate the need to install GFCI
receptacles
in the kitchen)
All the sockets are wired in a 'ring main' format to prevent excessive
volt drops at any outlet.
Presumably, this means there is no "start" or "end" of the branch circuit? So, no way to retrofit a GFCI receptacle to the "start" of the string and provide that protection to the remainder of the string?
A kettle will have a typical power rating of 3kW so ~13 Amps draw.
Other main appliances - dish
The electric kettles I've looked at tend to be in the 1500W range
(I want to stop relying on the 3600W burner in the stovetop to
boil water; I'm willing to settle for longer boil times or
smaller boil volumes to do so)
washer/washing machine/oven etc mostly have thier own separate
supplies. Ovens
Washer and dryer would typically be in some other "laundry" area
(with its own requirements). Likewise for domestic water heater.
Big heat loads here are often powered with natural gas. An
"all electric" house is seen as a bit of a curse though I've
a friend who has made such a switch. (We rely on gas for heat
and domestic hot water, prefering electric for cooking)
[Two neighbors have such homes -- the gas supply was deliberately not
brought to their residences as part of some "development plan" (?).
Their electric bills tend to be ~$300/month, even in the low demand
(winter) months. Adding gas to their homes would require excavating the street and their front yards (actually, this could be done with a
drill but still costly!)]
will be wired using 6mm cable.Microwave/toaster coffe maker will be
plugged itto a wall socket in the kitchen. Plugs will be fitted with
either 3A/5A or 13A fuses depending.
A problem with US wiring is that it relies heavily on protection devices
at the load center. E.g., my pizzelle iron (750W?) is just a plug,
power cord and some nichrome wire. The "power indicator" is actually
the glow of the nichrome wire as seen through a glass window! :<
But, the adoption of AFCIs is intended to help address "failing" products
on the assumption that they will piss and spit AS they are failing.
Refrigerators often have a dedicated branch circuit so the circuit
isn't accidentally tripped, putting those foodstuffs at risk.
None of our appliances require tools to "disconnect"; each
has some form of plug/socket arrangement -- though access to
it may be difficult (e.g., pull out the stove, refrigerator,
dishwasher to gain access)
On 6/10/2024 2:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
Remember that in the UK most older houses are brick built with
plastered walls so there is a fair amount of effort chasing a socket
box into the wall. Historically a lot of ring mains wiring also ran
behind the skirting board at the base of the wall and sockets were let
into that.
Here, most homes are stucco over masonry. So, any exterior walls are *harder* than "clay brick" (e.g., concrete block -- try drilling/cutting through the STONES in the mix).
Plaster-over-lath is rare as modern construction techniques favor
skin-coated drywall. Exterior walls are usually offset from the masonry with just 1" furring strips with no added insulation.
[I've seriously considered furring out the exterior walls just so I can
ADD insulation; once the masonry shell gets heated up, it drives the
interior temperature. It would also give me the opportunity to be
rid of the "textured" walls that are so common, here]
Old work is virtually impossible as most homes are built on slabs (no basement) and many have flat "frontier style" roofs (no attic). Running
new wiring means some amount of demo-work. Or, running the wiring
on the exterior of the building (which looks REALLY tacky!)
On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.
I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
I've seen pictures / video of.
On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.
I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger
plug and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that
I've seen pictures / video of.
On 6/11/2024 3:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.
I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen >>> pictures / video of.
XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand >plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest
to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers >to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in >every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.
Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they >plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.
Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as brutal
in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size
to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.
US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made.
On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 07:30:07 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 6/11/2024 3:50 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.
I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug
and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen >>>> pictures / video of.
XMAS lights are fused because they can be daisy-chained; the next strand >>plugged into the end of the previous strand. As such, the strand closest >>to the mains outlet sees the total load of all strands. Expecting consumers >>to observe the limit of 3 strands is wishful thinking. So, a 5A fuse in >>every plug ensures that whichever strand is "first" will open.
Similarly, expecting consumers to consider each of the individual loads they >>plug into a 99c 18AWG extension cord is wishful thinking.
Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as brutal
in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size
to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.
US plugs (for consumer use) tend to be really poorly made.
But are perfectly reliable.
On 09/06/2024 02:29, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/8/24 19:13, john larkin wrote:
The British plugs and outlets are enormous too.
I like the idea of a fuse in the plug end of the cord.
I'm only aware of that for Christmas lights in the U.S.A.
The Christmas lights show that small fuses can fit in a slightly larger plug >> and not require anything nearly as large as European plugs that I've seen
pictures / video of.
Fuses in plugs is a UK thing. Continental 3 pin plugs are every bit as brutal in shape as UK plugs but are unfused. Continental 2 pin is pretty similar size
to US except with round pins 230vac rather than flat ones.
I have to say that 13A fused plugs at 3kW run quite warm to the touch as well (at least on a continuous load). eg. Fan heater warming up a cold room.
Kettle is an intermittment load so seldom gets used for long enough for the heat to really build up to noticeable levels. UK 13A plugs and sockets have fairly recently been derated to 10A (2.4kW load). I suspect with the phasing our of beryllium copper springs in their internals.
Belgacom stackable telcoms plugs look like they were designed for 3-phase mains
for good measure. Almost same size as UK mains plugs!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapolar_plug
Their workmen have a sense of humour too. They installed my ISDN service box on
the dining room wall so that we could enjoy the LED light show...
Cable TV guy was much more helpful.
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits
and current about half here with correspondingly small cord wire so you
need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.
KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote:
[...]
The US uses the antiquated British Thermal Units (BTU) for gas billing.
Be careful when comparing historic matrial. A BTU was Board of Trade
Unit which was equivalent to a kilowatt-hour, the BThU was the British >Thermal Unit.
When BTUs were phased out in favour of kWh, the redundant abbreviation
'BTU" was repurposed as an alternative to "BThU". So depending on when
it was written, "1 BTU" could mean either 1 kWh or 1 BthU.
On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
protection.
Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the
breaker panel.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how
you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V domestic
load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot
in a dual hot cord.
On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.
Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A. >>
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to
where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240
V domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.
I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?
"bud--" <null@void.com> wrote in message news:lBrbO.17569$iz_6.16993@fx14.iad...
On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.
Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A. >>>
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to
where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240
V domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.
I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?
When I was growing up it was 240V live-neutral.
And changing to 230V would have been unthinkable due to the number of "why has my TV picture width shrunk" complaints which would
have occurred.
I may have heard the word "hot" in other contexts but not for AC power.
Also, some wiring installations still existed with live (hot) in red, neutral in black and earth (ground) in green.
It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.
In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.
<https://www.universalsecuritystore.com/store/images/products/large_images/usb2r2wh20a36-usi-electric-20-amp-usb-charger-duplex-wall-outlet-2.jpg>
We have 2 in our kitchen as a retro fit so we can charge 4 devices.
I'm not sure if this is a good, long-term solution (if you already have
an abundance of outlets, already) as a failure in that charger now requires >> the outlet to be replaced (instead of just unplugging and discarding a small >> plug-in charger)
And, as most outlets (in rooms other than the kitchen) are located just
above the floor level, the value of them in those places is dubious
(do you have a surface nearby on which you could set the device(s)
being charged?)
UK regs now dictate the minimum height at which a power outlet can be located.That is 450 mm  ( In the very old days, they were screwed to the skirting board!)
I don't think the gas ban will ever happen... At least, not until the UK becomes 100% totally self sufficient in green/renewable i.e. solar/wind/nuclear.It's a bit ilke the electric car situation.. It will
There's no conversion machine. Here is the explanation from a gas bill
last year:
"Your gas meter measures usage in units, but like all suppliers, we have
to do a bit of maths to turn it into kWh. Here's how it works:
GAS UNITS USED X CALORIFIC VALUE (39.1) X VOLUME CORRECTION (1.02264) ÷
3.6"
That particular month, I used 146 units according to the gas meter, so
the calculation was:
146 x 39.1 x 1.02244 / 3.6 = 1621.6 (rounded to 1622kWh)
The caloric value and volume correction varies slightly depending on the
source of the natural gas. Note that for modern gas meters, 1 unit = 1
cubic metre.
The easy way would be to compare direct gas heating with resistive
electric heating, both of which are crazy inefficient.
??? Forgetting for the moment the source of the electricity, resistive
electric heating is 100% efficient!
There is a movement here to eliminate gas to Save The Earth. Berkeley
CA forbids running gas to new-construction homes. I'm sure that will
keep Climate Change from affecting Berkeley.
Similar here. There's going to be a ban on gas heaters for new homes
from 2025 (probably?). See
<https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/gas-boiler-ban>
be 50+ years before there are no IC cars. Jeff- Have you considered
switching to Octopus Energy and get on their tracker/Agile tariffs? I'm
from the UK..
On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need
protection.
Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the
U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where
I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to
the breaker panel.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like
how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V
domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other
hot in a dual hot cord.
I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?
On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
"bud--" <null@void.com> wrote in message news:lBrbO.17569$iz_6.16993@fx14.iad...
On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and need protection.
Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the U.S.A. >>>>
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close
to
where I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to the breaker panel.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small
cord wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a
240
V domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other hot in a dual hot cord.
I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?
When I was growing up it was 240V live-neutral.
And changing to 230V would have been unthinkable due to the number of "why has my TV picture width shrunk" complaints which would
have occurred.
I may have heard the word "hot" in other contexts but not for AC power.
Also, some wiring installations still existed with live (hot) in red, neutral in black and earth (ground) in green.
They still exist in older buildings. New wiring with that old code is not allowed.
It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.
No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.
Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.
In the UK I remember being asked to wire a plug for a 230V piece of equipment which had arrived from the US.
Fortunately by then I knew that black wasn't neutral in the US.
--
Martin Brown
On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall andYes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>> were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. >>
routed to the outlet(s) from within?
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
Newer houses have internal stud walls built from 4x2
and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy to fit on that. By sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is screwed by way of 2 screws.
On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall andYes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking;
a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>>
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>>> were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall. >>>
routed to the outlet(s) from within?
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?
A brick home (here) would tend to have internal drywall walls (or plaster
on lath) furred out off of the exterior brick. The distance between
brick and drywall can vary (depending on quality of insulation).
Here, for example, the gap behind the drywall is about an inch (no insulation other than a vapor barrier). So, outlets (and other junction boxes) in walls that are along the outside of the building are notched into the brick *behind*
(outside of) the drywall.
Some lower quality builds (e.g., apartment houses) may just have block walls that are painted (cosmetics) so the interior and exterior are separated solely by the block wall.
Non-living spaces (garages) often have surface mounted junction boxes with cables interconnecting them run through EMT (or, rigid conduit for some commercial establishments). But, residences have minimal requirements
for electric service *in* the garage (and, power for a garage door opener will be overhead so no need to deal with a block wall to install that wiring)
Here, for example, I have several retractable extension cords ("cord reel") mounted on the ceiling with the receptacle ends just above head height.
So, you can bull a cord down to address your needs. This lets me have
a lot of outlets as well as freeing up the wall space for shelving (instead of having to maintain access to a wall-mounted receptacle).
<https://www.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/16M8845-40.jpg>
[Mine are rescues from some hospital equipment where the plug end
was the retractable portion -- roll the device up to the patient's
bedside, pull out plug and extend cord to reach a nearby outlet.
I simply swapped the functions of the fixed and extendable ends]
Newer houses have internal stud walls built from 4x2 and 12mm plasterboard screwed to that. Sockets are easy to fit on that. By
sockets I mean a box to which the power socket is screwed by way of 2 screws.
What you seem to call a socket we would call a junction box (Jbox).
These come in different sizes/configurations/mountings and are
made of metal or plastic (older ones were made of bakelite). E.g.,
a box intended to be installed in a masonry wall is designed to be
"mudded" in place:
<https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/9731e951-f1f7-4ca2-b055-b0d1c9145d1c/svn/raco-boxes-brackets-696-64_1000.jpg>
vs. a regular 2G box:
<https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/27083703-2b11-4b7b-ab61-34a32d80e2ee_1.d61079d669dce88b1fcd12da5222a77c.jpeg>
<https://www.thespruce.com/electrical-switch-and-junction-boxes-1824666>
The wiring (and wired "device" -- switch/outlet) is intended to be
entirely contained within the box. There are rules for the size of the box required for the "stuff" that will be contained within (wire, clamps, wirenuts, devices, etc.)
[I like metal boxes as you can remove/reinstall the devices without
fear of "stripping" the plastic into which they are fastened. I
also like oversized boxes so their contents aren't cramped/overstuffed.]
Many houses have natural gas central heating to heat water filled radiators. Some apartments/ blocks of flats usually have electric night storage radiators.
Current 'normal' electric costs ~23p/kWh. My 4 bed detached house ( we're
retired) used to use 270 kWh/month. total cost then was around £90/month including 5% vat. We also have to pay a 'standing charge' of 60p /day ( robbery
charge). I now have solar + 9.5kW battery . Summer months I'm a net exporter. Winter my bills are tiny. I import cheap overnight ( somtimes I get paid to import!) ~10p/kWh and runn off the battery all day . On a sunny day, I import less the following morning.
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking; >>>>>> a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>>>
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>>>> were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.
So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and
routed to the outlet(s) from within?
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?
Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).
From
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58090533>: "From 1 July until 30 September, gas prices will be capped at 5.48p per kilowatt hour (kWh),
and electricity at 22.36p per kWh". It would be possible to find (much)
lower prices than those, depending on the tariff used from the company
who supplies the power.
I'm not sure if you can see that BBC page in the USA, but if so there's
a lot more information there.
On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
On 10/06/2024 01:41, Don Y wrote:
On 6/9/2024 3:50 PM, TTman wrote:
Yes, I've seen that. And, they are *huge* (comparatively speaking; >>>>>>> a duplex receptacle, here, is a ~1x~3 inch device about an inch thick). >>>>>>>
Ours also reside *in* the wall; I seem to remember the ones in England >>>>>>> were "on" the wall (?)
In the UK we have slim sockets now.... protruding maybe 2mm from the wall.
So, they fit *into* the wall? Is the wiring concealed in the wall and >>>>> routed to the outlet(s) from within?
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?
Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).
Directly onto the brick surface?
Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?
How do you hang pictures?
On 6/15/24 7:51 PM, bud-- wrote:
On 6/11/2024 9:26 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 6/10/24 23:45, bud-- wrote:
As I expect you figured out, Christmas lights have tiny wire and
need protection.
Christmas lights are just the only example that came to mind in the
U.S.A.
I would personally prefer to have a 13A fuse on an extension cord
plugged into a 15A outlet so that the fuse would blow close to where
I'm using the cord instead of having to traipse through a building to
the breaker panel.
Probably somewhere in this thread, the UK you have 30-32A ring
circuits and current about half here with correspondingly small cord
wire so you need fuses in plugs. One fuse?
I would think that you'd want to open the (both) hot(s). Much like
how you want a double poll breaker to open both hots on a 240 V
domestic load in the U.S.A.
Blowing / opening one hot would still leave live power via the other
hot in a dual hot cord.
I think UK is 230V hot-neutral?
Sort of;
The UK is traditionally 240V along with many other UK influenced
countries such as Australia. While mainland Europe was 230V.
To achieve a common standard without any physical changes the tolerances
are asymmetric at 230V +10%/-6%. (As of 2022 the standard has now been widened to be 230V +10%/-10%).
The UK is normally described as having 240V AC power.
kw
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in messagenews:v4nhe7$79i4$3@dont-email.me...
On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
Yes it's known as a cavity wall. Our house was like that, and there was
no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the
UK). The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers
(people who do the plastering).
Directly onto the brick surface?
Yes
Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?
I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.
https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster
Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?
I've never done plastering myself but I think it goes directly on the bricks.
https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+wall+plaster
How do you hang pictures?
https://www.google.com/search?q=wall+plug (not the electrical kind)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_plug
That mentions Rawlplug which I can remember.
It's likely that plasterboard (drywall) is more popular now.
On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4"
thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity
(4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?
Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or
plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people
who do the plastering).
Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?
How do you hang pictures?
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v4m1bn$3ub3e$1@dont-email.me...
On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.
No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.
Ok. Most of the all country power adapters I have are labeled 100-240V 50-60 Hz so I hope they were designed for up to 255V.
Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.
On 16/06/2024 21:20, Don Y wrote:
On 6/16/2024 11:46 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
news:v4nb4p$5pn2$1@dont-email.me...
On 6/16/2024 1:16 AM, TTman wrote:
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4"
thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity
(4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
*TWO* brick walls between the occupants and the out-of-doors?
Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or
plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people
who do the plastering).
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely. Anything >habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with two walls of
4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern build the cavity
is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the inner skin is of
much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is proper brick.
There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
older originally air gap based insulation buildings.
There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice! >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904
Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!
My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
drills snatch.
Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process and
had to go off and buy another to finish the job.
Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to
support
the plaster?
Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most
houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey
one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim
3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand.
Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as does making
it stick to a ceiling!)
Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork).
The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick
where the kitchen range used to be.
How do you hang pictures?
Houses this old tend to have curtain rails and sometimes as is the case
in my house a dado rail at furniture height in addition. eg.
https://www.thevictorianemporium.com/store/category/dado_rails
It is coming back into fashion.
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4" thick) >>>>> and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity (4") >>>>> between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely. Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with two walls of 4" brick and some
rigid metal ties between them. Modern build the cavity is typically filled with
rockwool or PU foam and the inner skin is of much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is proper brick.
There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these older originally air gap based insulation buildings.
There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties! Or worse
deliberately left them out because of bad practice! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904
Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!
My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since there are enough nice
round flints in the brick clay matrix to make drills snatch.
Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process and had to
go off and buy another to finish the job.
Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?
Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim 3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand. Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as does making it stick to a ceiling!)
Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork). The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick where the kitchen range used to be.
How do you hang pictures?
Houses this old tend to have curtain rails and sometimes as is the case in my house a dado rail at furniture height in addition. eg.
https://www.thevictorianemporium.com/store/category/dado_rails
It is coming back into fashion.
Incandescent bulbs were really dim on that low voltage (I still have one or two
in seldom used locations).
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
On 16/06/2024 19:37, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:v4m1bn$3ub3e$1@dont-email.me...
On 16/06/2024 03:23, Edward Rawde wrote:
It may be the case that 240V has now been reduced to 230V in line with the rest of Europe.
And these days most, perhaps all, electronics won't care about the difference.
No we have a nominal 230vac which in practice varies between 220vac and 255vac depending on where you are and local loading.
Ok. Most of the all country power adapters I have are labeled 100-240V 50-60 Hz so I hope they were designed for up to 255V.
They get around it by having an asymmetric error band on the nominal UK 230v supply of -6% +10% (in practice roughly centred on
240v). Cheap US kit made for 60Hz sometimes has transformers that saturate on UK 50Hz.
I recall some cheap and nasty US made razors that depend on a 60Hz mechanical resonance to work so that in the UK at 50Hz they are
next to useless.
Our mains was sometimes high enough to blow filament light bulbs. In cities such wide variations are much less common but single
line rural feeds are higher near the transformer so that the folk at the far end get the volts.
The lowest I have ever seen my mains voltage was just under 200v when one of the three phases had gone down (not my phase). I
didn't notice at all until I tried to boil the kettle because almost everything these days is so voltage tolerant. LED light bulbs
just draw more current so do computers and their displays.
Incandescent bulbs were really dim on that low voltage (I still have one or two in seldom used locations).
--
Martin Brown
On 6/17/2024 7:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with
two walls of 4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern
build the cavity is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the
inner skin is of much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is
proper brick.
There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
older originally air gap based insulation buildings.
There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904
Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!
My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
drills snatch.
Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process
and had to go off and buy another to finish the job.
So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space? Resting on
<something>
as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the
distant end?
When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the room? Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
the ceiling directly above the point on the wall? Or, would the wire
drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?
If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into
the
existing wiring? Or, would you have to start back at the load center?
Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
a few inches of its termination.
On 6/17/2024 7:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
Yes. Our 'old'houses have internal walls made of either brick (4"
thick) and plastered. it's hard to recess the brick to take
power sockets, but quite common. The cabling runs down the cavity
(4") between the internal brickwork and external brickwork.
------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
Anything habitable built post WWII is likely to be cavity wall with
two walls of 4" brick and some rigid metal ties between them. Modern
build the cavity is typically filled with rockwool or PU foam and the
inner skin is of much cheaper big breezeblock whilst the outer skin is
proper brick.
There is an industry of cavity wall insulation retrofitted to these
older originally air gap based insulation buildings.
There have been a few scandals where bad builders forgot the gap ties!
Or worse deliberately left them out because of bad practice!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-37093904
Pretty serious to have brick walls falling down like that!
My own house is much older (early Victorian and of handmade imperial
size bricks). Its outer walls are three courses of solid high fired
Victorian engineering brick. It is difficult to drill through since
there are enough nice round flints in the brick clay matrix to make
drills snatch.
Last tradesman to try in my house ruined a core drill in the process
and had to go off and buy another to finish the job.
So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space? Resting on
<something>
as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the
distant end?
When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the room? Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
the ceiling directly above the point on the wall? Or, would the wire
drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?
If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into
the
existing wiring? Or, would you have to start back at the load center?
Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
a few inches of its termination.
Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed
to support
the plaster?
Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most
houses they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse
grey one with horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin
skim 3-5mm of pink plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great
demand. Polishing it to a fine flat finish requires real skill (as
does making it stick to a ceiling!)
Yes, most folks have decided this level of detail isn't important in their homes.  Here, it is (now) done with powered rotary sanders to "level
off" the
"excess" plaster in the skim coat (as most homes are plaster over drywall).
Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the
brickwork). The thickest walls right in the core of my house are about
4' thick where the kitchen range used to be.
Metal ductwork creates a similar problem, here.
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working
families.
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working
families.
The actual materials were a very poor quality local brick for the
interior wall and Bath Stone (Oolite) for the outer. The courses were
laid with gas slag mortar, which was made in a pug mill on site from
lime and the residue from the local gasworks.
During WWI a bomb went off near one of the terraces and the shock wave >propagated through the clay soil, jarring dozens of houses. The houses >appeared not to be too badly damaged and the cracked mortar joints soon >repaired themselves (mortar is self-healing). A decade later it was
noticed that a lot of them were suffering from rising damp. The shock
of the bomb had dislodged the mortar 'snots' on the cavity side of each
wall, they fell down to the bottom of the cavity and filled it to a
level which bridged the damp course with a load of porous wet material.
The builders had provided air vents on the outside and omitted
corresponding bricks in the inner wall, to increase the underfloor air >circulation. I found it was possible to worm my way along under the
floor, reach into the cavity through the missing brick holes and pull
out bucketloads of the wet material by hand. It was a very unpleasant
job but it solved the damp problem.
On 17/06/2024 22:41, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
The house design he describes is relatively modern transition probably
around the 1930's. Pre 1910 and solid wall is much more likely.
I don't know how common this was, but a house I lived in, which was
built in 1901, had cavity walls. All the terraces of houses in that
area, which were built between 1895 and 1905, had cavity walls, even
though they were built down to a price for sale to ordinary working families.
That is early for cavity walls. It is possible that in cities the larger builders doing big projects used it sooner than those out in the sticks.
So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space? Resting on <something>
as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the distant end?
Remember that the void has steel wall ties about every 18" in each direction so
the cables are resting on them but not tied down. They are fairly rigid so don't move once they are installed.
When *initially* wired, how would cable move across (left-to-right) the
room? Would each "destination" be serviced by routing a cable DOWN from
the ceiling directly above the point on the wall? Or, would the wire
drape from one "destination" to the next, sideways, IN that void?
Convention is that most horizontal wiring is out of sight under the floor above
or on the surface of timbers in the loft. In theory I think the code requires them to be anchored every couple of feet. In practice I have seen plenty of loose wires straggling across spaces (and even more horrific plumbing mistakes). In older homes where electricity was a later addition the cables are
often buried in the plasterwork. Modern build they tend to be inside stud walls
or the cavity. I've never looked to see how they do it but I'm pretty sure the
brickies build the walls and the sparks only move in when the house is watertight with a roof on.
If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into the >> existing wiring? Or, would you have to start back at the load center?
You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a ring main isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.
Here, cable has to be secured to the building members, regularly -- and within
a few inches of its termination.
In theory I think that is true in the UK too and most of it is. But not all installers are diligent and building inspections these days are cursory to non-existent.
Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to >>>> support
the plaster?
Sometimes they did use chicken wire to make thick plaster stay. Most houses >>> they don't bother and the plaster is in two grades a coarse grey one with >>> horsehair or other binder in it ~2cm and a final thin skim 3-5mm of pink >>> plaster on top. Good plasterers are in great demand. Polishing it to a fine >>> flat finish requires real skill (as does making it stick to a ceiling!)
Yes, most folks have decided this level of detail isn't important in their >> homes.  Here, it is (now) done with powered rotary sanders to "level off" the
"excess" plaster in the skim coat (as most homes are plaster over drywall).
It is amazing to watch a good plasterer at work.
Chickenwire plays hell with Wifi (as does the density of the brickwork). The
thickest walls right in the core of my house are about 4' thick where the >>> kitchen range used to be.
Metal ductwork creates a similar problem, here.
Foil coated foam insulation is another common Wifi blocker too.
On 6/18/2024 2:28 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
So, wire/cable just "hangs" (gravity) in that space? Resting on
<something>
as it enters the void and then supported by the connection at the
distant end?
Remember that the void has steel wall ties about every 18" in each
direction so the cables are resting on them but not tied down. They
are fairly rigid so don't move once they are installed.
But, gravity only exploits those for lateral support. What about a wire traveling down to an outlet or switch "from above"? I don't imagine
those are
manually secured to those ties?
Convention is that most horizontal wiring is out of sight under the
floor above or on the surface of timbers in the loft. In theory I
think the code requires them to be anchored every couple of feet. In
practice I have seen plenty of loose wires straggling across spaces
(and even more horrific plumbing mistakes). In older homes where
electricity was a later addition the cables are often buried in the
plasterwork. Modern build they tend to be inside stud walls or the
cavity. I've never looked to see how they do it but I'm pretty sure
the brickies build the walls and the sparks only move in when the
house is watertight with a roof on.
In a framed wall, it would be common for a wire to travel laterally through holes bored in the intervening studs. E.g., the cable feeding an outlet (about
a foot off the floor) would likely come from (or travel off to) another outlet
AT (slightly above) that ~12 inch height. This saves wire as the wire doesn't
have to climb to above the ceiling or dive to below the floor to make
it's next
connection.
There are rules governing WHERE the wire can penetrate the framing as it is likely that occupants (with no awareness of where wires actually are
run) can
opt to drive nails/fasteners into the wall at any point and potentially encounter a cable (imagine a partial short creating a fire hazard inside
the
wall)
If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie
into the
existing wiring? Or, would you have to start back at the load center?
You could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a
ring main isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.
Nut how, physically, do you do this, given that the existing wire is in
this
"cavity" AND any new wire would also have to be "threaded" through it?
Here,
worst case, you cut a hole in the drywall, fish the wire through and then patch/paint the hole.
If you opted to *add* some device (outlet, etc.), how would you tie into theYou could do either depending on which was easier. Breaking into a ring main
existing wiring? Or, would you have to start back at the load center? >>>
isn't that hard and that is the normal configuration in the UK.
Nut how, physically, do you do this, given that the existing wire is in this >> "cavity" AND any new wire would also have to be "threaded" through it? Here, >> worst case, you cut a hole in the drywall, fish the wire through and then
patch/paint the hole.
You start from an existing fixture and track the cable back. Easy now that there are decent mains wiring detectors not so easy back in the 70's. The hard
part is knocking out the brickwork to make a recess.
On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:<...>
Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need
to preserve this "ring". In your case, it seems like you would have to literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)
Shorts caused by drilling or nailing into a mains cable can and do
happen here too. At worst it should blow a fuse and at best take down a circuit breaker for unbalanced live neutral.
On 6/19/24 9:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:<...>
Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need
to preserve this "ring". In your case, it seems like you would have to
literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)
They are called spurs in UK and are allowed with restrictions.
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/your-questions-answered/questions/how-many-spurs-can-i-have-on-a-ring-main/
On 6/19/2024 1:38 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
On 6/19/24 9:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/19/2024 1:42 AM, Martin Brown wrote:<...>
Here, you can add a stub diverging from an existing box; there's no need >>> to preserve this "ring". In your case, it seems like you would have to >>> literally insert the box *into* the ring (?)
They are called spurs in UK and are allowed with restrictions.
https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/your-questions-answered/questions/how-many-spurs-can-i-have-on-a-ring-main/
But, how do you *access* the wire to do so? Possibly you can gain access INSIDE a box. But, now you have to get your "stub" wire out of the box
and into the "cavity" and, eventually, over to its destination.
Here, we can open walls with a "plunge saw" (drywall saw) -- to any level
of exposure deemed necessary. Then, slip a new piece of drywall (cut to that size/shape) in its place and patch.
But, how do you *access* the wire to do so? Possibly you can gain access >> INSIDE a box. But, now you have to get your "stub" wire out of the box
and into the "cavity" and, eventually, over to its destination.
Here, we can open walls with a "plunge saw" (drywall saw) -- to any level
of exposure deemed necessary. Then, slip a new piece of drywall (cut to
that size/shape) in its place and patch.
From the back of the box you can drill into the cavity,
or carve out a trench
in the surface of the inner wall deep enough to run the cable to the next box if the location is close. Plaster over the trench (and cable) when finished. I
assume that is still allowed, it was many years ago that I did that.
In the house I had in England the inner wall was made of breeze block (cinder block) that was soft enough to gouge with a finger nail. Making a channel in it
was very easy with a masonry chisel. It is more difficult if you have to do it
in brick, stone or concrete.
Some houses use pre-cast concrete lintels over windows and doors. The concrete
is those can be extremely tough and very difficult to drill into or chisel out.
Yes it's known as a cavity wall.
Our house was like that, and there was no such thing as drywall (or plasterboard as it would be known in the UK).
The inside wall is plastered with plaster by the plasterers (people who do the plastering).
Directly onto the brick surface? Or, was lath/chickenwire installed to support
the plaster?
How do you hang pictures?
Sysop: | Keyop |
---|---|
Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
Users: | 415 |
Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
Uptime: | 109:20:21 |
Calls: | 8,692 |
Calls today: | 1 |
Files: | 13,259 |
Messages: | 5,948,434 |