• Yttrium iron garnet

    From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 29 13:52:34 2024
    John Larkin posted a schematic that included a featureless box that he described as an ECL voltage controlled oscillator.

    It was probably a voltage controlled crystal oscillator - a VCXO - or
    perhaps a TCVCXO.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-controlled_oscillator

    They now seem to go up to 800MHz and 1.2GHz which is a lot faster than
    they were when I was interested.

    https://www.qsl.net/n9zia/yig/yigintro.pdf

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but their
    2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the integrated
    circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's GaAs parts to
    get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling point of the system.

    The YIG resonance is narrow and depends linearly on the magnetic field
    which can be controlled with some precision.

    John should have done his precision timing by counting the edges of a
    YIG generated clock - we now have counters that can go that fast, and
    twiddled the frequency to get the exact time delay required.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Wed May 29 17:12:21 2024
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but their
    2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the integrated
    circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's GaAs parts to
    get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm guessing
    they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever higher
    frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    R/C to L/C to Xtal to YIG since about 1900. Did I miss any development(s)
    out pre-YIG?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to cd999666@notformail.com on Wed May 29 10:37:52 2024
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but their
    2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the integrated
    circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's GaAs parts to
    get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm guessing >they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever higher
    frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    R/C to L/C to Xtal to YIG since about 1900. Did I miss any development(s)
    out pre-YIG?

    Tuning forks, SAWs, BAWs, mechanical ceramic resonators, dielectric
    ceramic resonators, coaxial ceramic resonators, sapphire, cavities,
    atomic things.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu May 30 15:45:21 2024
    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but their
    2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the integrated
    circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's GaAs parts to
    get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm guessing
    they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever higher
    frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for 6G
    and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    R/C to L/C to Xtal to YIG since about 1900. Did I miss any development(s)
    out pre-YIG?

    Tuning forks, SAWs, BAWs, mechanical ceramic resonators, dielectric
    ceramic resonators, coaxial ceramic resonators, sapphire, cavities,
    atomic things.

    As usual, John Larkin hasn't noticed that most of his list can't be
    rapidly tuned to a different frequency.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Thu May 30 09:14:58 2024
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but
    their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the
    integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's
    GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling point
    of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm guessing
    they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever higher
    frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for 6G
    and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging technology!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glen Walpert@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Thu May 30 11:03:19 2024
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but
    their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the
    integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's
    GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling
    point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm
    guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever
    higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for
    6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig- technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Thu May 30 22:50:09 2024
    On 30/05/2024 7:14 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but
    their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the
    integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's
    GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling point >>>>> of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm guessing >>>> they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever higher
    frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for 6G
    and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging technology!

    Of course it does. University researchers always want to create that impression.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47822-3

    does emphasis how their technique differs other's peoples schemes to
    exploit an effect which has been around for quite a while. The idea of electrically thumping and Al-Ni-Co permanent magnet to get it to deliver precisely the static magnetic field you for as long as you want it is
    neat, but perhaps more problematic than the authors admit.

    They may need to add a Hall plate to their stack to keep track of the
    actual magnetic field where it matters.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 30 07:04:36 2024
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but
    their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the
    integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling
    point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm
    guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever
    higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for
    6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging
    technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig- >technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They
    don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but
    it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can
    varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    Of course, it's inherently difficult to modulate a high-Q resonator
    fast, even without an electromagnet in the way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri May 31 02:50:29 2024
    On 31/05/2024 12:04 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the
    integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling
    point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm
    guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever
    higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for
    6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging >>> technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They
    don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but
    it must be terrible.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47822-3

    makes quite a lot of fuss about them not being power hogs.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    In fact they tweak quite a compact permanent magnet stack. How fast they
    can do it isn't discussed (or at least if they did I didn't notice it).

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can
    varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    Varicaps are horribly non-linear. Narrow-band is always easier than
    wide-band, but the YIG tuning scheme is good for at least a factor of
    two frequency range and once you've got that you can use counters to go
    down from there until you run out of dividers

    Of course, it's inherently difficult to modulate a high-Q resonator
    fast, even without an electromagnet in the way.

    You don't need an electromagnet to get the fields required. You may want
    a non-conducting permanent magnet to proved the bulk of the field - or
    it might be enough to split your magnetic path into lots of parallel
    wire magnets insulated from one another. There are ferrite permanent
    magnets which aren't all that electrically conductive.

    This reads more as if you don't want it to work - it's the sort of
    contribution that gets people chucked out of brain-storming sessions.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu May 30 21:46:20 2024
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the
    integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling
    point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm
    guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever
    higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for
    6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging >>> technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They
    don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but
    it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can
    varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.


    Of course, it's inherently difficult to modulate a high-Q resonator
    fast, even without an electromagnet in the way.

    It isn’t, actually, at least over a restricted range. If the resonator
    obeys a differential equation, you can modulate its resonance much faster
    than f_0/Q by changing L or C.

    Resonators with significant time delay, such as a long piece of coax,
    aren’t as friendly that way.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Thu May 30 14:50:07 2024
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm
    guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging >>>> technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to >>> be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They
    don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but
    it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can
    varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri May 31 00:04:47 2024
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm
    guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging >>>>> technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to >>>> be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They
    don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but
    it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can
    varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.


    If you can find one at the exact frequency you need. YIGs have a huge
    tuning range.

    IIRC you also said that they’re piezoelectric.

    I’m not saying that YIG is the answer to everything, but for some things it’s amazing and (AFAIK) unique.

    Sure improves spectrum analyzers!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Fri May 31 03:40:28 2024
    On Fri, 31 May 2024 00:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm >>>>>>>>> guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging >>>>>> technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to >>>>> be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They
    don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but
    it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can
    varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.


    If you can find one at the exact frequency you need. YIGs have a huge
    tuning range.

    IIRC you also said that they’re piezoelectric.

    The CCRs are high-K, usually shorted, transmission lines, not
    piezoelectric. Prop delay is a tiny fraction of c. You can TDR them as
    such. Z is usually in the 10 ohm ballpark.


    I’m not saying that YIG is the answer to everything, but for some things
    it’s amazing and (AFAIK) unique.

    No argument, but they will always be big and expensive slow-tuning
    power hogs, which is fine in a spectrum analyzer.

    RF synthesizer chips are pretty amazing these days too. They make a
    pretty good first LO too, but they are small and cheap.


    Sure improves spectrum analyzers!

    I wonder if the latest SAs use YIGs.



    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri May 31 11:32:11 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 5/31/24 12:40, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 31 May 2024 00:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm >>>>>>>>>>> guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>>>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging
    technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig- >>>>>>> technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They >>>>>> don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but >>>>>> it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can >>>>>> varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.


    If you can find one at the exact frequency you need. YIGs have a huge
    tuning range.

    IIRC you also said that they’re piezoelectric.

    The CCRs are high-K, usually shorted, transmission lines, not
    piezoelectric. Prop delay is a tiny fraction of c. You can TDR them as
    such. Z is usually in the 10 ohm ballpark.


    I’m not saying that YIG is the answer to everything, but for some things >>> it’s amazing and (AFAIK) unique.

    No argument, but they will always be big and expensive slow-tuning
    power hogs, which is fine in a spectrum analyzer.

    RF synthesizer chips are pretty amazing these days too. They make a
    pretty good first LO too, but they are small and cheap.


    Sure improves spectrum analyzers!

    I wonder if the latest SAs use YIGs.



    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I gather many spectrum analyzers these days mix successive
    slices of the spectrum down to where an ADC can acquire the
    whole slice, and the remaining processing is all software FTs.

    No need for YIG oscillators, and the LO synthesizer needs
    only coarse steps.

    Jeroen Belleman


    Sure, that’s the software-defined radio (SDR) approach. Works great for
    many things, but good close-in phase noise is not one of them.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri May 31 21:24:33 2024
    On 31/05/2024 8:40 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 31 May 2024 00:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm >>>>>>>>>> guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging
    technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They >>>>> don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but >>>>> it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can >>>>> varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.

    If you can find one at the exact frequency you need. YIGs have a huge
    tuning range.

    IIRC you also said that they’re piezoelectric.

    The CCRs are high-K, usually shorted, transmission lines, not
    piezoelectric. Prop delay is a tiny fraction of c. You can TDR them as
    such. Z is usually in the 10 ohm ballpark.

    I’m not saying that YIG is the answer to everything, but for some things >> it’s amazing and (AFAIK) unique.

    No argument, but they will always be big and expensive slow-tuning
    power hogs, which is fine in a spectrum analyzer.

    Except that they don't have to be, as

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-47822-3

    pointed out. Modern lithography and surface mount assembly can let you
    get away with a much smaller active device, and if you get the bulk of
    your magnetic field from a permanent magnet, you don't need a lot of power.

    RF synthesizer chips are pretty amazing these days too. They make a
    pretty good first LO too, but they are small and cheap.

    Not all that cheap, and there's quite a bit higher harmonic content to
    filter out.

    Sure improves spectrum analyzers!

    I wonder if the latest SAs use YIGs.

    Keysight's do.

    https://docs.keysight.com/kkbopen/yig-spheres-the-gems-in-your-signal-analyzer-604584429.html

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Fri May 31 04:40:05 2024
    On Fri, 31 May 2024 13:29:02 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 5/31/24 12:40, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 31 May 2024 00:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm >>>>>>>>>>> guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>>>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging
    technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig- >>>>>>> technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They >>>>>> don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but >>>>>> it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can >>>>>> varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.


    If you can find one at the exact frequency you need. YIGs have a huge
    tuning range.

    IIRC you also said that they’re piezoelectric.

    The CCRs are high-K, usually shorted, transmission lines, not
    piezoelectric. Prop delay is a tiny fraction of c. You can TDR them as
    such. Z is usually in the 10 ohm ballpark.


    I’m not saying that YIG is the answer to everything, but for some things >>> it’s amazing and (AFAIK) unique.

    No argument, but they will always be big and expensive slow-tuning
    power hogs, which is fine in a spectrum analyzer.

    RF synthesizer chips are pretty amazing these days too. They make a
    pretty good first LO too, but they are small and cheap.


    Sure improves spectrum analyzers!

    I wonder if the latest SAs use YIGs.



    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I gather many spectrum analyzers these days mix successive
    slices of the spectrum down to where an ADC can acquire the
    whole slice, and the remaining processing is all software FTs.

    No need for YIG oscillators, and the LO synthesizer needs
    only coarse steps.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Yes, digital IF.

    The price of a several-GHZ sa has dropped by over 10:1 in the last 20
    years, mostly from using a lot of digital stuff.

    You can get an impressive 8 GHz RF synth chip for about $5 now.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri May 31 13:29:02 2024
    On 5/31/24 12:40, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 31 May 2024 00:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 21:46:20 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 11:03:19 GMT, Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:14:58 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom wrote:

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 15:45:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 30/05/2024 3:37 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 17:12:21 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 13:52:34 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    Yttrium iron garnet tuned oscillators were around back then, but >>>>>>>>>>> their 2GHz to 8GHz range was too high for me to count with the >>>>>>>>>>> integrated circuits around then - we had to go the Gigabit Logic's >>>>>>>>>>> GaAs parts to get to 800MHz, and that became the unique selling >>>>>>>>>>> point of the system.

    YIG oscillators were quite the thing back in the day, but I'm >>>>>>>>>> guessing they've been completely superseded by now to get to ever >>>>>>>>>> higher frequencies. Seems we've gone from -

    This misses Jan Panteltje's thread "Small magnetic tunable filter for >>>>>>>> 6G and beyond" which is about Yig being used today.

    That article makes it seem like YIG is some revolutionary, new, emerging
    technology!

    Use of YIG filters as a replacement for varactor tuning could turn out to
    be significant. 2022 Microwave Journal article:

    <https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/37980-reinventing-yig-
    technology-for-microwave-filter-applications>

    The VIDA oscillators still look like giant expensive power hogs. They >>>>> don't specify modulation bandwidth on the data sheets that I see, but >>>>> it must be terrible.

    One can't modulate a hundreds-of-mA electromagnet very fast.

    An LC osc with a varicap is a more sensible VCO. Narrowband, one can >>>>> varicap a coaxial ceramic resonator, or a PCB ring oscillator, or
    something. Cheap and fast.

    And far, far noisier than the best YIGs.

    Coaxial ceramic resonators have Qs in the thousands, and low tempcos.


    If you can find one at the exact frequency you need. YIGs have a huge
    tuning range.

    IIRC you also said that they’re piezoelectric.

    The CCRs are high-K, usually shorted, transmission lines, not
    piezoelectric. Prop delay is a tiny fraction of c. You can TDR them as
    such. Z is usually in the 10 ohm ballpark.


    I’m not saying that YIG is the answer to everything, but for some things >> it’s amazing and (AFAIK) unique.

    No argument, but they will always be big and expensive slow-tuning
    power hogs, which is fine in a spectrum analyzer.

    RF synthesizer chips are pretty amazing these days too. They make a
    pretty good first LO too, but they are small and cheap.


    Sure improves spectrum analyzers!

    I wonder if the latest SAs use YIGs.



    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I gather many spectrum analyzers these days mix successive
    slices of the spectrum down to where an ADC can acquire the
    whole slice, and the remaining processing is all software FTs.

    No need for YIG oscillators, and the LO synthesizer needs
    only coarse steps.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)