• The end of stackoverflow?

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 10 06:55:11 2024
    Stack Overflow users sabotage their posts after OpenAI deal
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/05/stack-overflow-users-sabotage-their-posts-after-openai-deal/

    The end of stack overflow?

    Personally I know companies are using my open sourced stuff..
    Let it be...

    I like Stackoverflow, it gave me many good answers in the past
    to difficult questions...
    Many highly qualified people there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri May 10 15:16:21 2024
    On 10-May-24 2:55 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Stack Overflow users sabotage their posts after OpenAI deal
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/05/stack-overflow-users-sabotage-their-posts-after-openai-deal/

    The end of stack overflow?

    Personally I know companies are using my open sourced stuff..
    Let it be...

    I like Stackoverflow, it gave me many good answers in the past
    to difficult questions...
    Many highly qualified people there.


    One often has to trawl through a number of suggested solutions, either
    because most of them are wrong (or at least wildly apocryphal),
    irrelevant, or because the same or similar symptoms can have many
    different underlying causes.

    I have to wonder whether a language model is really up to the task of
    filtering out the dross, while keeping the important parts.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Fri May 10 01:29:18 2024
    On 5/10/2024 12:16 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
    One often has to trawl through a number of suggested solutions, either because
    most of them are wrong (or at least wildly apocryphal), irrelevant, or because
    the same or similar symptoms can have many different underlying causes.

    I have to wonder whether a language model is really up to the task of filtering
    out the dross, while keeping the important parts.

    Patterns (repeated) in answers are reinforced. So, outliers tend to
    not influence the model, as much.

    E.g., Carlin (?) did a bit in which he uttered something like, "Here's a sentence no one has ever said before..." You, thus, wouldn't expect an
    AI to come up with such a sentence in "normal use" because its weights
    are so low.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to sylvia@email.invalid on Fri May 10 08:52:34 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 10 May 2024 15:16:21 +0800) it happened Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote in <la5vu5FojftU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 10-May-24 2:55 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Stack Overflow users sabotage their posts after OpenAI deal
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/05/stack-overflow-users-sabotage-their-posts-after-openai-deal/

    The end of stack overflow?

    Personally I know companies are using my open sourced stuff..
    Let it be...

    I like Stackoverflow, it gave me many good answers in the past
    to difficult questions...
    Many highly qualified people there.


    One often has to trawl through a number of suggested solutions, either >because most of them are wrong (or at least wildly apocryphal),
    irrelevant, or because the same or similar symptoms can have many
    different underlying causes.

    I have to wonder whether a language model is really up to the task of >filtering out the dross, while keeping the important parts.

    There is always the issue that one at least needs to know some stuff to use the answers...
    Same may go for an AI created answer.
    I have been deliberately trying to get AI to get the concepts wrong
    told it for example I died and went to heaven but was not let in there because I did not have the required 4 COVID shots.
    Makes me wonder if it replies to questions by somebody about going to heaven 'Make sure you have the 4 COVID shots".

    But that takes me on a religious side-track.. is not that the way many kids are brain washed (wrong-educated)
    growing up in religious environments, with other requirement for heaven than COVID shots? (Oh well maybe that too)...
    creating all the various religious fanatic groups we see now being played out against each other by the US military industrial complex
    for weapon sales...

    :-) drifting of the topic :-)
    I have never _contributed_ to Stack Overflow, google will find Usenet with lots of specific answers, one can ask here.
    Some groups are still alive.
    I hope it stays that way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri May 10 14:53:21 2024
    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Sylvia Else wrote:
    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Stack Overflow users sabotage their posts after OpenAI deal
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/05/stack-overflow-users-sabotage-their-posts-after-openai-deal/

    The end of stack overflow?

    Personally I know companies are using my open sourced stuff..
    Let it be...

    I like Stackoverflow, it gave me many good answers in the past
    to difficult questions...
    Many highly qualified people there.


    One often has to trawl through a number of suggested solutions, either >>because most of them are wrong (or at least wildly apocryphal),
    irrelevant, or because the same or similar symptoms can have many
    different underlying causes.

    I have to wonder whether a language model is really up to the task of >>filtering out the dross, while keeping the important parts.

    There is always the issue that one at least needs to know some stuff to use the answers...
    Same may go for an AI created answer.
    I have been deliberately trying to get AI to get the concepts wrong
    told it for example I died and went to heaven but was not let in there because I did not have the required 4 COVID shots.
    Makes me wonder if it replies to questions by somebody about going to heaven 'Make sure you have the 4 COVID shots".

    But that takes me on a religious side-track.. is not that the way many
    kids are brain washed (wrong-educated)
    growing up in religious environments, with other requirement for heaven
    than COVID shots? (Oh well maybe that too)...
    creating all the various religious fanatic groups we see now being played
    out against each other by the US military industrial complex
    for weapon sales...

    In my experience, an AI answer's advantageousness is directly
    proportional to the applied technology content of the question. In other
    words, questions about applications amass applicable answers while the
    results of questions regarding abstractions are all the place, with a
    Wikipedia bias.

    It's feasible for the fine print of social sites similar to
    Stackoverflow to stipulate all rights to user content belong to the
    website owner. The quid pro quo is the owner's out-of-pocket expenses to
    host the site.

    Everything comes at a price. And this perfectly illustrates why people absolutely must host their own websites in order to protect their
    rights.

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Sat May 11 01:21:53 2024
    On 10/05/2024 5:16 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    On 10-May-24 2:55 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Stack Overflow users sabotage their posts after OpenAI deal

    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/05/stack-overflow-users-sabotage-their-posts-after-openai-deal/

    The end of stack overflow?

    Personally I know companies are using my open sourced stuff..
    Let it be...

    I like Stackoverflow, it gave me many good answers in the past
    to difficult questions...
    Many highly qualified people there.


    One often has to trawl through a number of suggested solutions, either because most of them are wrong (or at least wildly apocryphal),
    irrelevant, or because the same or similar symptoms can have many
    different underlying causes.

    I have to wonder whether a language model is really up to the task of filtering out the dross, while keeping the important parts.

    And Jan Panteltje wouldn't notice. His enthusiasm for the the Le Sage
    theory of gravity is an example of his latching onto dross.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don on Fri May 10 10:07:45 2024
    On 5/10/2024 7:53 AM, Don wrote:
    It's feasible for the fine print of social sites similar to
    Stackoverflow to stipulate all rights to user content belong to the
    website owner. The quid pro quo is the owner's out-of-pocket expenses to
    host the site.

    Everything comes at a price. And this perfectly illustrates why people absolutely must host their own websites in order to protect their
    rights.

    Litigation is what will protect your rights; merely hosting a site
    (that can be archived and reused at a later date by any number of
    visitors) only controls what that site will PUBLISH at some instant
    in time.

    Can you prevent a 'bot from scraping your site and using that
    content to "educate a visitor"? *Train* an AI??

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri May 10 17:27:43 2024
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    It's feasible for the fine print of social sites similar to
    Stackoverflow to stipulate all rights to user content belong to the
    website owner. The quid pro quo is the owner's out-of-pocket expenses to
    host the site.

    Everything comes at a price. And this perfectly illustrates why people
    absolutely must host their own websites in order to protect their
    rights.

    Litigation is what will protect your rights; merely hosting a site
    (that can be archived and reused at a later date by any number of
    visitors) only controls what that site will PUBLISH at some instant
    in time.

    Can you prevent a 'bot from scraping your site and using that
    content to "educate a visitor"? *Train* an AI??

    Both 'bots and litigation are separate topics.

    My comments pertain to rights retention. After you sign away your
    rights, nothing's left to litigate.

    If it helps, think of it this way: a website's owner is legally entitled
    to rip you off when you sign away your rights.

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don on Fri May 10 13:18:37 2024
    On 5/10/2024 10:27 AM, Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    It's feasible for the fine print of social sites similar to
    Stackoverflow to stipulate all rights to user content belong to the
    website owner. The quid pro quo is the owner's out-of-pocket expenses to >>> host the site.

    Everything comes at a price. And this perfectly illustrates why people
    absolutely must host their own websites in order to protect their
    rights.

    Litigation is what will protect your rights; merely hosting a site
    (that can be archived and reused at a later date by any number of
    visitors) only controls what that site will PUBLISH at some instant
    in time.

    Can you prevent a 'bot from scraping your site and using that
    content to "educate a visitor"? *Train* an AI??

    Both 'bots and litigation are separate topics.

    Bots are the exact corollary to AI; what's the difference between
    me, as a human, scraping your site (even if I don't do it mechanically)
    and LEARNING from everything contained therein... vs. a bot scraping it
    for an AI?

    My comments pertain to rights retention. After you sign away your
    rights, nothing's left to litigate.

    When *your* site is scraped, where are your rights? Can you
    prove that my AI derived some/all of its knowledge from the "copyright-protected content" on your site?

    If it helps, think of it this way: a website's owner is legally entitled
    to rip you off when you sign away your rights.

    So, as the site's owner, what protections do *you* have
    regarding *your* content (regardless of its source)?

    Once you publish, you're exposed. I make a point of inserting
    small bugs into any code that I publish as exemplars. My thinking
    is that anyone who is interested in the points being illustrated will
    TRY to run the code, encounter an error AND THEN LOOK *INTO* THE CODE
    in an attempt to UNDERSTAND it. That last point being the exact
    point of providing exemplars! :>

    (Anyone -- or anyTHING -- intent on just COPYING it will replicate the bug)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri May 10 22:22:02 2024
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    It's feasible for the fine print of social sites similar to
    Stackoverflow to stipulate all rights to user content belong to the
    website owner. The quid pro quo is the owner's out-of-pocket expenses to >>>> host the site.

    Everything comes at a price. And this perfectly illustrates why people >>>> absolutely must host their own websites in order to protect their
    rights.

    Litigation is what will protect your rights; merely hosting a site
    (that can be archived and reused at a later date by any number of
    visitors) only controls what that site will PUBLISH at some instant
    in time.

    Can you prevent a 'bot from scraping your site and using that
    content to "educate a visitor"? *Train* an AI??

    Both 'bots and litigation are separate topics.

    Bots are the exact corollary to AI; what's the difference between
    me, as a human, scraping your site (even if I don't do it mechanically)
    and LEARNING from everything contained therein... vs. a bot scraping it
    for an AI?

    My comments pertain to rights retention. After you sign away your
    rights, nothing's left to litigate.

    When *your* site is scraped, where are your rights? Can you
    prove that my AI derived some/all of its knowledge from the "copyright-protected content" on your site?

    If it helps, think of it this way: a website's owner is legally entitled
    to rip you off when you sign away your rights.

    So, as the site's owner, what protections do *you* have
    regarding *your* content (regardless of its source)?

    Once you publish, you're exposed. I make a point of inserting
    small bugs into any code that I publish as exemplars. My thinking
    is that anyone who is interested in the points being illustrated will
    TRY to run the code, encounter an error AND THEN LOOK *INTO* THE CODE
    in an attempt to UNDERSTAND it. That last point being the exact
    point of providing exemplars! :>

    (Anyone -- or anyTHING -- intent on just COPYING it will replicate the bug)

    "What we've got here is failure to communicate."

    Your questions and arguments again fall outside of the scope of my
    followup. My comments pertain to rights retention.

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don on Fri May 10 17:04:34 2024
    On 5/10/2024 3:22 PM, Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    It's feasible for the fine print of social sites similar to
    Stackoverflow to stipulate all rights to user content belong to the
    website owner. The quid pro quo is the owner's out-of-pocket expenses to >>>>> host the site.

    Everything comes at a price. And this perfectly illustrates why people >>>>> absolutely must host their own websites in order to protect their
    rights.

    Litigation is what will protect your rights; merely hosting a site
    (that can be archived and reused at a later date by any number of
    visitors) only controls what that site will PUBLISH at some instant
    in time.

    Can you prevent a 'bot from scraping your site and using that
    content to "educate a visitor"? *Train* an AI??

    Both 'bots and litigation are separate topics.

    Bots are the exact corollary to AI; what's the difference between
    me, as a human, scraping your site (even if I don't do it mechanically)
    and LEARNING from everything contained therein... vs. a bot scraping it
    for an AI?

    My comments pertain to rights retention. After you sign away your
    rights, nothing's left to litigate.

    When *your* site is scraped, where are your rights? Can you
    prove that my AI derived some/all of its knowledge from the
    "copyright-protected content" on your site?

    If it helps, think of it this way: a website's owner is legally entitled >>> to rip you off when you sign away your rights.

    So, as the site's owner, what protections do *you* have
    regarding *your* content (regardless of its source)?

    Once you publish, you're exposed. I make a point of inserting
    small bugs into any code that I publish as exemplars. My thinking
    is that anyone who is interested in the points being illustrated will
    TRY to run the code, encounter an error AND THEN LOOK *INTO* THE CODE
    in an attempt to UNDERSTAND it. That last point being the exact
    point of providing exemplars! :>

    (Anyone -- or anyTHING -- intent on just COPYING it will replicate the bug)

    "What we've got here is failure to communicate."

    Your questions and arguments again fall outside of the scope of my
    followup. My comments pertain to rights retention.

    The *post* pertains to AI harvesting information posted
    by site users.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl@21:1/5 to sylvia@email.invalid on Sat May 11 13:45:01 2024
    In article <la5vu5FojftU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 10-May-24 2:55 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Stack Overflow users sabotage their posts after OpenAI deal
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/05/stack-overflow-users-sabotage-their-posts-after-openai-deal/

    The end of stack overflow?

    Personally I know companies are using my open sourced stuff..
    Let it be...

    I like Stackoverflow, it gave me many good answers in the past
    to difficult questions...
    Many highly qualified people there.


    One often has to trawl through a number of suggested solutions, either

    The most annoying is that 4 of 5 question that I want to
    ask there are destroyed by the moderators.
    It is largely arbitrary.
    Explain the difference between c and lisp macro's?
    IMHO dubious. Huge upvotes, apparently acceptable.
    Explain the difference between Forth and lisp macro's?
    A more sensible question because they are more related.
    Shot down, inappropiate for SO.
    My sensible m4 question (how to write a function that
    removes the first character of a string) was voted down.

    because most of them are wrong (or at least wildly apocryphal),
    irrelevant, or because the same or similar symptoms can have many
    different underlying causes.
    The idea that they should be voted down.
    A sensible attitude towards chatgpt, is to add the answer of
    chatgpt immediately, and ask the poster of the question to rate
    it down.


    I have to wonder whether a language model is really up to the task of >filtering out the dross, while keeping the important parts.
    I think yes, in the long run.

    Sylvia.
    --
    Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
    You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
    hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
    the air. First gain is a cat purring. - the Wise from Antrim -

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash Gordon@21:1/5 to Don on Sat May 11 11:19:06 2024
    On 5/10/2024 12:27 PM, Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    ...
    If it helps, think of it this way: a website's owner is legally entitled
    to rip you off when you sign away your rights.

    Watch the "Joan is Awful" episode of Black Mirror to see this in action.

    --
    I'm part of the vast libertarian conspiracy to take over the world and
    leave everyone alone.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl on Sat May 11 12:39:34 2024
    On 5/11/2024 4:45 AM, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:
    The most annoying is that 4 of 5 question that I want to
    ask there are destroyed by the moderators.

    For all the folks who think "moderation" is the solution... :>

    It is largely arbitrary.
    Explain the difference between c and lisp macro's?
    IMHO dubious. Huge upvotes, apparently acceptable.
    Explain the difference between Forth and lisp macro's?
    A more sensible question because they are more related.
    Shot down, inappropiate for SO.
    My sensible m4 question (how to write a function that
    removes the first character of a string) was voted down.

    In Inferno/Limbo, you would use "len" to determine the number
    of characters in the argument (to guard against degenerate
    cases -- with appropriate conditional logic) and then "substr"
    to peel off the characters following the "0-th" character.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From boB@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sat May 11 17:27:19 2024
    On Sat, 11 May 2024 12:39:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 5/11/2024 4:45 AM, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:
    The most annoying is that 4 of 5 question that I want to
    ask there are destroyed by the moderators.

    For all the folks who think "moderation" is the solution... :>

    It is largely arbitrary.
    Explain the difference between c and lisp macro's?
    IMHO dubious. Huge upvotes, apparently acceptable.
    Explain the difference between Forth and lisp macro's?
    A more sensible question because they are more related.
    Shot down, inappropiate for SO.
    My sensible m4 question (how to write a function that
    removes the first character of a string) was voted down.

    In Inferno/Limbo, you would use "len" to determine the number
    of characters in the argument (to guard against degenerate
    cases -- with appropriate conditional logic) and then "substr"
    to peel off the characters following the "0-th" character.




    I have found that any of my contributions to a question are either
    removed or edited. I thought it was just me but it looks like it
    isn't just me.

    This may be for stack-exchange or in addition to.

    Are they owned by the same people ?
    The article called them "sisters"

    boB

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to boB on Sat May 11 18:51:40 2024
    On 5/11/2024 5:27 PM, boB wrote:

    I have found that any of my contributions to a question are either
    removed or edited. I thought it was just me but it looks like it
    isn't just me.

    This may be for stack-exchange or in addition to.

    Are they owned by the same people ?
    The article called them "sisters"

    SO can be viewed as a part of SE (with a specific focus; contrast this
    with, e.g., <https://diy.stackexchange.com/>)

    You may be seeing some of the same "faces" reviewing your posts in
    different places... There's a certain mindset (i.e., control freak)
    that draws people to moderating sites.

    I find mailing lists to be the best form of PRODUCTIVE interaction;
    usually, there is some long-standing relationship developed (if not
    already in place) between the participants so there is something
    at stake in their interactions -- beyond just access to the "interchange".

    I.e., when my neighbor hires a mariachi band for their nieces quinceaƱera,
    I grin and bear it. And, they'd know that my "inconsiderate" use of a
    jack hammer at 7AM is not one of CHOICE but of necessity.

    [I wrote a mailing list program, many years ago, that allows the list
    members to "censor" posts to which they object. But, it *exposes*
    each such censorship and penalizes the censor as well as the censored.
    I found that it was rarely used as folks find censoring others almost
    as abhorrent as BEING censored! "Play nice..."]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)