• power supply idea

    From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 21 15:01:16 2024
    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 22 07:15:22 2024
    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1



    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.


    --
    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 22 11:10:41 2024
    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    In thory, pulse-width contol of the output could give excellent
    stability under load -- but the filter is going to cause droop. Unless
    you are very careful about the design of the filter, the phase shifts it creates will make the feedback loop unstable. An integrator in the loop
    will stabilise this at the expense of a much slower response time.

    Somewhere in the loop you need a dominant pole so that (to use audio
    amplifier terminology) your roll-off is 6dB per octave until the loop
    gain has dropped far enough for stability when all the other phase
    shifts kick in and the slope increases to 12dB per octave or more.
    Rather than integrating the feedback, transferring the dominant pole to
    the filter will result in less output noise and a faster response to a
    step increase in the load.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 22 12:57:22 2024
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Is your "spread spectrum" dodad supposed to mitigate EMI?

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Don on Tue Apr 23 01:09:10 2024
    On 22/04/2024 10:57 pm, Don wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Is your "spread spectrum" dodad supposed to mitigate EMI?

    It smears it out over a range of frequencies, and makes it look better
    on the screen - no big frequency spikes, but many more smaller ones.

    "Mitigate" depends on how the hash messes up your particular system.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Mon Apr 22 08:53:45 2024
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 11:10:41 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    In thory, pulse-width contol of the output could give excellent
    stability under load -- but the filter is going to cause droop. Unless
    you are very careful about the design of the filter, the phase shifts it >creates will make the feedback loop unstable. An integrator in the loop
    will stabilise this at the expense of a much slower response time.

    Somewhere in the loop you need a dominant pole so that (to use audio >amplifier terminology) your roll-off is 6dB per octave until the loop
    gain has dropped far enough for stability when all the other phase
    shifts kick in and the slope increases to 12dB per octave or more.
    Rather than integrating the feedback, transferring the dominant pole to
    the filter will result in less output noise and a faster response to a
    step increase in the load.

    An LC filter is at least 2-pole, usually more, and we have no idea
    what crazy stuff the customer might connect to our power supply. So
    the less we depend of feedback from the output, the safer things get.

    A power supply without feedback is always stable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to Don on Mon Apr 22 08:55:44 2024
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:57:22 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Is your "spread spectrum" dodad supposed to mitigate EMI?

    Danke,

    It will help pass CE lab tests, by about 20 dB. It's easy, so why not?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to erichpwagner@hotmail.com on Mon Apr 22 08:50:02 2024
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 07:15:22 -0000 (UTC), piglet
    <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1



    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are
    all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback
    divider is broken. Blow things up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to jrwalliker@gmail.com on Mon Apr 22 09:04:21 2024
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 16:32:00 +0100, John R Walliker
    <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 22/04/2024 16:09, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 22/04/2024 10:57 pm, Don wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to >>>> give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the >>>> feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Is your "spread spectrum" dodad supposed to mitigate EMI?

    It smears it out over a range of frequencies, and makes it look better
    on the screen - no big frequency spikes, but many more smaller ones.

    "Mitigate" depends on how the hash messes up your particular system.


    Yes, but the only one that most designers care about is the EMC
    receiver at the compliance test lab.

    John

    It won't reduce ripple or fast switching spikes, which is what my
    users might care about. It would improve the peaks on a spectum
    analyzer, which is what regulators (government regulators, not voltage regulators) care about.

    Actually, the DC power that one sees on an airplane or in a car is
    nastier than anything I can reasonably make, even on purpose. So my
    concern is stability and not blowing anything up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 22 17:30:40 2024
    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 11:10:41 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    In thory, pulse-width contol of the output could give excellent
    stability under load -- but the filter is going to cause droop. Unless
    you are very careful about the design of the filter, the phase shifts it >creates will make the feedback loop unstable. An integrator in the loop >will stabilise this at the expense of a much slower response time.

    Somewhere in the loop you need a dominant pole so that (to use audio >amplifier terminology) your roll-off is 6dB per octave until the loop
    gain has dropped far enough for stability when all the other phase
    shifts kick in and the slope increases to 12dB per octave or more.
    Rather than integrating the feedback, transferring the dominant pole to
    the filter will result in less output noise and a faster response to a
    step increase in the load.

    An LC filter is at least 2-pole, usually more,

    If you made it three poles, with one of them significantly lower
    frequency than the other two, stability would be much easier to obtain.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 22 17:38:19 2024
    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are
    all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback
    divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential
    spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all
    of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do
    you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to Don on Mon Apr 22 11:09:57 2024
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:38:19 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to >>>> give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the >>>> feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are
    all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback
    divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential >spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all
    of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do
    you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    It's all in plain sight. Well, the guts of the PWM converter isn't,
    but that's pretty obvious.

    The PWM converter, and in fact everything, will be implemented in an
    FPGA, with an ADC to pick up the output voltage.

    May as well go pseudo-random on the spread spectrum part. Any audible
    side effects would be hiss, not whine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Mon Apr 22 12:16:07 2024
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:30:40 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 11:10:41 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    In thory, pulse-width contol of the output could give excellent
    stability under load -- but the filter is going to cause droop. Unless
    you are very careful about the design of the filter, the phase shifts it
    creates will make the feedback loop unstable. An integrator in the loop
    will stabilise this at the expense of a much slower response time.

    Somewhere in the loop you need a dominant pole so that (to use audio
    amplifier terminology) your roll-off is 6dB per octave until the loop
    gain has dropped far enough for stability when all the other phase
    shifts kick in and the slope increases to 12dB per octave or more.
    Rather than integrating the feedback, transferring the dominant pole to
    the filter will result in less output noise and a faster response to a
    step increase in the load.

    An LC filter is at least 2-pole, usually more,

    If you made it three poles, with one of them significantly lower
    frequency than the other two, stability would be much easier to obtain.

    Capacitor ESR, native or added, helps.

    I also want to kill the Q as seen from the load side, so it doesn't
    ring much if they switch an inductive load.

    The load-from-hell is of course some box with a switching regulator
    power supply, that looks like a negative resistance load.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Apr 23 23:47:26 2024
    On 22-04-2024 20:09, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:38:19 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power >>>>> supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the >>>>> response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to >>>>> give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the >>>>> feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are
    all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback
    divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential
    spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all
    of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do
    you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    It's all in plain sight. Well, the guts of the PWM converter isn't,
    but that's pretty obvious.

    The PWM converter, and in fact everything, will be implemented in an
    FPGA, with an ADC to pick up the output voltage.

    May as well go pseudo-random on the spread spectrum part. Any audible
    side effects would be hiss, not whine.


    I have done what you propose, but I did not add the spread-spectrum part.

    If you add a current sense on the output, you can characterize the non-linearity of the power stage, and do feedforward compensation. So
    your response will be snappy. You still have the settle time of the LC
    filter, that's harder to counteract with feedforward.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund on Tue Apr 23 23:56:44 2024
    On 23-04-2024 23:47, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 22-04-2024 20:09, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:38:19 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge >>>>>> switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty >>>>>> cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power >>>>>> supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the >>>>>> target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get >>>>>> zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the >>>>>> response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just
    enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case >>>>>> the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are
    all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback
    divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential >>> spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all >>> of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do >>> you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    It's all in plain sight. Well, the guts of the PWM converter isn't,
    but that's pretty obvious.

    The PWM converter, and in fact everything, will be implemented in an
    FPGA, with an ADC to pick up the output voltage.

    May as well go pseudo-random on the spread spectrum part. Any audible
    side effects would be hiss, not whine.


    I have done what you propose, but I did not add the spread-spectrum part.

    If you add a current sense on the output, you can characterize the non-linearity of the power stage, and do feedforward compensation. So
    your response will be snappy. You still have the settle time of the LC filter, that's harder to counteract with feedforward.

    One concept I never had time to implement, was to do in circuit
    compensation. So in your function test, add a swept current load on the
    output at different output voltages, and feed the results to the
    feedforward lookup table. That will take care of variations on
    components, albeit wont reduce temperature affected errors.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Apr 24 01:52:51 2024
    On 24-04-2024 01:17, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 23:56:44 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 23-04-2024 23:47, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 22-04-2024 20:09, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:38:19 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge >>>>>>>> switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty >>>>>>>> cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power >>>>>>>> supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it >>>>>>>> as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the >>>>>>>> target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get >>>>>>>> zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the >>>>>>>> response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the >>>>>>>> integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just
    enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case >>>>>>>> the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense >>>>>>>> connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are >>>>>> all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback >>>>>> divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential >>>>> spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all >>>>> of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do >>>>> you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    It's all in plain sight. Well, the guts of the PWM converter isn't,
    but that's pretty obvious.

    The PWM converter, and in fact everything, will be implemented in an
    FPGA, with an ADC to pick up the output voltage.

    May as well go pseudo-random on the spread spectrum part. Any audible
    side effects would be hiss, not whine.


    I have done what you propose, but I did not add the spread-spectrum part. >>>
    If you add a current sense on the output, you can characterize the
    non-linearity of the power stage, and do feedforward compensation. So
    your response will be snappy. You still have the settle time of the LC
    filter, that's harder to counteract with feedforward.

    One concept I never had time to implement, was to do in circuit
    compensation. So in your function test, add a swept current load on the
    output at different output voltages, and feed the results to the
    feedforward lookup table. That will take care of variations on
    components, albeit wont reduce temperature affected errors.

    One of our applications has a fixed, stiff 48 volt supply. So we
    could characterize the switcher output as an ohmic source, and use the
    sensed current to null out most or all of those ohms, so the
    integrator can have an even smaller influence range. Or even no
    integrator! We need a current sensor anyhow.


    Sounds like a fun project. You could do this with a 0.3 USD ARM CM0
    processor, but I guess you have the FPGA on the board anyhow.

    Another product will have an isolated dc/dc converter driving the half-bridge, and it will be fairly soft, nonlinear at that. We will
    digitize that 60 volt supply anyhow, so it and the current together
    could be compensated. That might require a divide in the FPGA. I'll
    ask my FPGA kids if they can divide.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to klauskvik@hotmail.com on Tue Apr 23 16:17:15 2024
    On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 23:56:44 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 23-04-2024 23:47, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 22-04-2024 20:09, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:38:19 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge >>>>>>> switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty >>>>>>> cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power >>>>>>> supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it >>>>>>> as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the >>>>>>> target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get >>>>>>> zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the >>>>>>> response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just
    enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case >>>>>>> the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are >>>>> all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback
    divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential >>>> spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all >>>> of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do >>>> you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    It's all in plain sight. Well, the guts of the PWM converter isn't,
    but that's pretty obvious.

    The PWM converter, and in fact everything, will be implemented in an
    FPGA, with an ADC to pick up the output voltage.

    May as well go pseudo-random on the spread spectrum part. Any audible
    side effects would be hiss, not whine.


    I have done what you propose, but I did not add the spread-spectrum part.

    If you add a current sense on the output, you can characterize the
    non-linearity of the power stage, and do feedforward compensation. So
    your response will be snappy. You still have the settle time of the LC
    filter, that's harder to counteract with feedforward.

    One concept I never had time to implement, was to do in circuit
    compensation. So in your function test, add a swept current load on the >output at different output voltages, and feed the results to the
    feedforward lookup table. That will take care of variations on
    components, albeit wont reduce temperature affected errors.

    One of our applications has a fixed, stiff 48 volt supply. So we
    could characterize the switcher output as an ohmic source, and use the
    sensed current to null out most or all of those ohms, so the
    integrator can have an even smaller influence range. Or even no
    integrator! We need a current sensor anyhow.

    Another product will have an isolated dc/dc converter driving the
    half-bridge, and it will be fairly soft, nonlinear at that. We will
    digitize that 60 volt supply anyhow, so it and the current together
    could be compensated. That might require a divide in the FPGA. I'll
    ask my FPGA kids if they can divide.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Apr 24 21:16:19 2024
    On 4/24/24 01:17, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 23:56:44 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 23-04-2024 23:47, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 22-04-2024 20:09, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 22 Apr 2024 17:38:19 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    erichpwagner wrote:
    John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge >>>>>>>> switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty >>>>>>>> cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power >>>>>>>> supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it >>>>>>>> as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the >>>>>>>> target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get >>>>>>>> zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the >>>>>>>> response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the >>>>>>>> integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just
    enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case >>>>>>>> the
    feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense >>>>>>>> connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1

    Looks like you have invented the buck converter.

    I invented a control algorithm. All the buck chips that I know of are >>>>>> all feedback driven, and will slam into either rail if the feedback >>>>>> divider is broken. Blow things up.

    An algorithm arguably eliminates a 555 triangle generator as a potential >>>>> spread spectrum source. LOL. So, what's hidden in plain sight behind all >>>>> of your left hand side, symbolic sleight of hand? In other words, how do >>>>> you implement your control algorithm?

    Danke,

    It's all in plain sight. Well, the guts of the PWM converter isn't,
    but that's pretty obvious.

    The PWM converter, and in fact everything, will be implemented in an
    FPGA, with an ADC to pick up the output voltage.

    May as well go pseudo-random on the spread spectrum part. Any audible
    side effects would be hiss, not whine.


    I have done what you propose, but I did not add the spread-spectrum part. >>>
    If you add a current sense on the output, you can characterize the
    non-linearity of the power stage, and do feedforward compensation. So
    your response will be snappy. You still have the settle time of the LC
    filter, that's harder to counteract with feedforward.

    One concept I never had time to implement, was to do in circuit
    compensation. So in your function test, add a swept current load on the
    output at different output voltages, and feed the results to the
    feedforward lookup table. That will take care of variations on
    components, albeit wont reduce temperature affected errors.

    One of our applications has a fixed, stiff 48 volt supply. So we
    could characterize the switcher output as an ohmic source, and use the
    sensed current to null out most or all of those ohms, so the
    integrator can have an even smaller influence range. Or even no
    integrator! We need a current sensor anyhow.

    Another product will have an isolated dc/dc converter driving the half-bridge, and it will be fairly soft, nonlinear at that. We will
    digitize that 60 volt supply anyhow, so it and the current together
    could be compensated. That might require a divide in the FPGA. I'll
    ask my FPGA kids if they can divide.


    division is just like any other operation, it just takes more cycles
    since since it can't be done in parallel like a multiply

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Apr 25 23:54:07 2024
    On 22/04/2024 8:01 am, John Larkin wrote:

    If one had, say, a 48 volt power bus, you could hang a half-bridge
    switcher to ground, and a lowpass filter out. If the drive has duty
    cycle n, the output voltage is 48*n. So we have a programmable power
    supply with no feedback, which will be stable into any load.

    The load regulation will be mediocre, but we could almost sell it
    as-is.

    So now, sense the output voltage and compute the error against the
    target, run through a slowish integrator, and tweak the PWM to get
    zero output voltage error. Gross transient response is basically the
    response of the output filter, with some modest drool from the
    integrator.

    We can constrain the influence range of the integrator, just enough to
    give the regulation that we need. That limits output swing in case the feedback is wrong, as one could get from a botched remote sense
    connection.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2fysyvkl4eim7vujhaobh/FFINT_PS_1.jpg?rlkey=rug6yi3cgemi9vvbz8apgboqi&raw=1



    Have you seen the class-D audio amplifiers by Bruno Putzeys ?

    https://www.diyclassd.com/media/5c/19/2e/1682341812/Simple%20self-oscillating%20class%20D%20amplifier.pdf

    https://www.diyclassd.com/media/41/a4/c1/1697639958/Ncore%20Technology.pdf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)