https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Jeroen Belleman
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Jeroen Belleman
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when
the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
should, which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when
the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
should, which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
and on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
that had got close to going into thermal runaway
Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible region.
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
should, which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
and on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
that had got close to going into thermal runaway
Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things withA slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires. >>
sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible
region.
The US is the kind of place that will instate outright bans on e bikes,
vape sticks, and books with gay people in them, but in most states it's >perfectly legal to buy crates of fireworks at at time with way more
explosive power than that, on the honor system. Kaboom!
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric
scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or
higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is
just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:55:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
And what if cheap Chinese batteries weren't all designed by geniuses
like Sloman?
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 13:16:40 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts when >>> the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they should,
which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery, and
on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn the
user when this were incipient and would start discharging the battery if >>> it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
Or just parked somewhere, not charging. I wonder how long it takes a
tiny separator defect to spread into an explosive meltdown. Some
references suggest seconds.
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
should, which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
and on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a >>>>> higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and >>>>> 160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away >>>>> leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't >>>>> have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
that had got close to going into thermal runaway
Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things withA slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires. >>>
sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible >>> region.
The US is the kind of place that will instate outright bans on e bikes,
vape sticks, and books with gay people in them, but in most states it's
perfectly legal to buy crates of fireworks at at time with way more
explosive power than that, on the honor system. Kaboom!
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million
guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
There were 617 homicides in Chicago last year. I suspect few were
attacks by strangers.
NYC alone had 18 lithium battery fire deaths last year, something like
2 PPM, and that number seems to be trending up.
On 4/12/2024 1:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric
scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on
what people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million >>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured >>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or
higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually
is just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
Traffic accidents kill about 50k Americans per year, firearms in the
same ballpark, and Covid is still dropping 500-1k per day.
These fashions of death have been re-categorized as "acts of God" in the public consciousness.
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing
lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed
dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they
noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you
can get out of the way".
On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing >> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed >> dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they >>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a
way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you can get out of the way".
You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing >> >> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed >> >> dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they >> >>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say
is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a >> >> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you >> > can get out of the way".
You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.
Who it the 'you' in that sentence? Do you mean the average user, in
which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
wouldn't have a clue.
Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did
something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now >supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action. Even if the
user delegates this action to an automated system there is no guarantee
that the action will be taken every time it is needed.
'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
is not safe at all.
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
should, which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
and on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run away
leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
that had got close to going into thermal runaway
Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few fires.
A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any sensible region.
On 2024/04/12 10:26 a.m., bitrex wrote:
On 4/12/2024 1:07 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric >>>>>>>>>> scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on
what people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million >>>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being
injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or
higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually
is just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
Traffic accidents kill about 50k Americans per year, firearms in the
same ballpark, and Covid is still dropping 500-1k per day.
US death rate from Covid is around 30/day - not 500 or more! Which is
now about the same as Canada.
Deaths per 100,000 from Covid in Canada was about 1/2 the rate of the
US. Most of those higher rates of death occurred under the previous US administration.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what >people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 millionAbout 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured
by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher. >>
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is
just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing >>>> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed >>>> dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they >>>>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say >>>> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it
bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a >>>> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model
has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you >>> can get out of the way".
You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.
Who it the 'you' in that sentence?
Do you mean the average user, in
which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
wouldn't have a clue.
Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did
something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action.
Even if the user delegates this action to an automated system there is no guarantee
that the action will be taken every time it is needed.
'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
is not safe at all.
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing >>>>> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed >>>>> dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they >>>>>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say >>>>> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it >>>>> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a >>>>> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model >>>> has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you >>>> can get out of the way".
You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode. >>
Who it the 'you' in that sentence? Do you mean the average user, in
which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
wouldn't have a clue.
Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did
something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now
supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action. Even if the
user delegates this action to an automated system there is no guarantee
that the action will be taken every time it is needed.
'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
is not safe at all.
References say that a tiny separator defect spreads radially at
centimeters per second.
Any somehow-sensed defect will explode in
flames in well under a minute, from the bad cell into the whole pack.
See Youtube examples... smoke to explosion in seconds.
If I heard an alarm from a lithium battery pack, I wouldn't try to fix
it, I'd run in the opposite direction. What automated system could
discharge an 80 KWH battery pack in a few seconds? Or even 1 KWH?
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
On 14/04/2024 1:14 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing >>>> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed >>>> dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they >>>>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say >>>> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it >>>> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a >>>> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model >>> has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you >>> can get out of the way".
You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode.
Who it the 'you' in that sentence?
You personally.
Do you mean the average user, in
which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
wouldn't have a clue.
Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action.
But happens to offer a much higher energy density.
It takes a long time to degrade to the point where it can catch fire or explode, and the degradation is entirely detectable.
Even if the user delegates this action to an automated system there is
no guarantee that the action will be taken every time it is needed.
And the brakes on your car don't always work, but we do seem to be
willing to live with that.
'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
is not safe at all.
But we live with that, when the advantages are proportionate to the risk.
On 2024-04-12 16:04, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As the energy density of batteries goes up, failures will
become more spectacular. It's not a good idea to store
both oxidizer and fuel in close proximity in the same
container. It's a recipe for an explosive.
Lithium batteries don't explode spontaneously.
The "explosion" is actually the last stage in a process that starts
when the batteries start self-discharging more rapidly than they
should, which warms them up a little.
Any properly designed battery management system monitors this
self-heating, with temperature sensors at the core of the battery,
and on it's surface.
If the battery gets hot enough, the higher temperature can lead to a
higher discharge rate, and at a battery temperature between 130C and
160C which depends on the battery chemistry, the process can run
away leading to something that looks like an explosion.
Any properly designed designed battery management system would warn
the user when this were incipient and would start discharging the
battery if it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
It follows that any lithium battery pack that explodes either didn't
have a properly designed battery management system, or was being
looked after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
All this is too complicated for John Larkin to keep in mind - we've
discussed it here often enough that he should know it by now.
Or the battery wasn't attended.
Warning systems can be designed to be quite attention getting.
Battery fires have happened when nobody was near the battery; maybe
charging.
A proper battery management system wouldn't let you charge a battery
that had got close to going into thermal runaway
Here, several cities have prohibited personal electric things with
wheels from entering the urban public transport system after a few
fires.
A slightly better informed city administration could adopt a more
sensible rule. Personal electric things with wheels can be designed to
be quite unlikely to catch on fire. One's that aren't shouldn't be on
sale in the first place, and would be prohibited imports in any
sensible region.
It is the only thing they can do until the manufacturers create machines
that do not catch fire putting the entire metro line out of service. It
is not the city transport business or job to mandate what others should
do, or what other regulators do to regulate proper battery building.
They simply have to protect themselves and their users.
(Oh, no guns around here.)
And yes, of course it is a pain. The combination of a personal transport device and public transportation was working wonderfully for many. You
get from home to the station with your wheelie in minutes, cross the
city in minutes underground, arrive at job place in minutes from the
station using the wheelie again.
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 14/04/2024 1:14 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 13/04/2024 3:39 am, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On 12/04/2024 6:55 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
... if
it had a safe place to dissipate the stored energy.
What if it didn't?
Then it probably needs to include a louder hooter and brilliant flashing >>>>>> lights to serve the same purpose, if more slowly than a purpose designed >>>>>> dissipator.
..was being looked
after by somebody who ignored the early warnings.
That includes 99% of battery users who wouldn't know what to do it they >>>>>>> noticed the warnings or wouldn't be able to do it anyway.
A voice message could be pretty explicit. All the message needs to say >>>>>> is to move the battery outside to where it can't do much damage if it >>>>>> bursts into flames. EV car batteries are big enough that that's quite a >>>>>> way, but cars are designed to move appreciable distances.
It's not really a very good selling point. "Oh, by the way, this model >>>>> has the latest upgrade and tells you when it is going to explode, so you >>>>> can get out of the way".
You don't seem to have been paying attention. If you deal with the
warning by discharging the battery, and making it safe, it won't explode. >>>
Who it the 'you' in that sentence?
You personally.
Do you mean the average user, in
which case this is a hopeless scenario as most users of batteries
wouldn't have a clue.
Until recently batteries have been inherently safe: unless you did
something stupid they were unlikely to give any trouble. You are now
supporting a type of battery that is inherently unsafe and will catch
fire or explode unless the user takes some positive action.
But happens to offer a much higher energy density.
It takes a long time to degrade to the point where it can catch fire or
explode, and the degradation is entirely detectable.
Even if the user delegates this action to an automated system there is
no guarantee that the action will be taken every time it is needed.
And the brakes on your car don't always work, but we do seem to be
willing to live with that.
'Safety' that depends on taking a positive action to prevent a disaster
is not safe at all.
But we live with that, when the advantages are proportionate to the risk.
My van has dual hydraulic systems for the footbrake, a mechanical
handbrake and even gears that could slow it down in an emergency. If I
park it somewhere, the chance of it crashing into something while I am
not there to stop it is very small indeed, I don't need to take any
positive action.
I suspect the number of spontaneous fires of vehicles with lithium
batteries is far higher in relation to the number on the roads than the number of spontaneous runaways and crashes of diesel and petrol
vehicles.
In addition there is the same risk of brake failure on an
electric vehicle - even more so if it has an electric parking brake
which is the driver cannot operate quickly in an emergency.
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid....
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:07:59 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what >>people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million >>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured >>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is >>just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly >>40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
The population mix makes a bigger difference. Bad guys will always
find guns.
On 4/13/24 9:35 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid....
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
Tesla (and every other EV manufacturer) does monitor the voltage of
every individual cell and every cell has its own fusible link in case it >becomes shorted.
kw
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:10:31 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 4/13/24 9:35 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid....
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
Tesla (and every other EV manufacturer) does monitor the voltage of
every individual cell and every cell has its own fusible link in case it
becomes shorted.
kw
Tesla uses many small cell in parallel, numbers like 74. I wonder how
they could monitor the voltage of each cell.
I assume "becomes shorted" means that the battery terminals are
shorted somehow. The bigger hazard is that a cell will short
internally, and all its paralleled friends will then dump thousands of
amps into it.
John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:10:31 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 4/13/24 9:35 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid....
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
Tesla (and every other EV manufacturer) does monitor the voltage of
every individual cell and every cell has its own fusible link in case it >>> becomes shorted.
kw
Tesla uses many small cell in parallel, numbers like 74. I wonder how
they could monitor the voltage of each cell.
I assume "becomes shorted" means that the battery terminals are
shorted somehow. The bigger hazard is that a cell will short
internally, and all its paralleled friends will then dump thousands of
amps into it.
Not if there was a fuse in series with each cell
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:10:31 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>
wrote:
On 4/13/24 9:35 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid....
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
Tesla (and every other EV manufacturer) does monitor the voltage of
every individual cell and every cell has its own fusible link in case it
becomes shorted.
kw
Tesla uses many small cell in parallel, numbers like 74. I wonder how
they could monitor the voltage of each cell.
I assume "becomes shorted" means that the battery terminals are
shorted somehow. The bigger hazard is that a cell will short
internally, and all its paralleled friends will then dump thousands of
amps into it.
Monitoring or fusing won't help a 5-second internal ignition from a
separator failure.
I'm certain that few cheap Chinese bike and scooter batteries have any
sort of safety systems. As they age, they may get more dangerous.
On 4/14/24 1:11 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 10:10:31 -0700, KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com>As you say many are in parallel in a module (the actual number varies
wrote:
On 4/13/24 9:35 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 16:14:07 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid....
Tesla (and every other EV manufacturer) does monitor the voltage of
And a defect sensor would have to constantly snoop every cell of a
pack. A typical Tesla might have 7000 cells.
every individual cell and every cell has its own fusible link in case
it becomes shorted.
kw
Tesla uses many small cell in parallel, numbers like 74. I wonder how
they could monitor the voltage of each cell.
with the particular model and revision). The cell voltage of all those
cells are the same so can be measured with a single channel of the BMS.
I assume "becomes shorted" means that the battery terminals are shorted
somehow. The bigger hazard is that a cell will short internally, and
all its paralleled friends will then dump thousands of amps into it.
Each cell has its own fusible link so in that case the link for that
specific cell will blow. The maximum current for an individual cell is
in the region of 40-50A.
In some models Tesla has an overall pyrotechnic fuse to disconnect the
pack from the vehicle very rapidly if there is excess current (>1000A or
so).
Monitoring or fusing won't help a 5-second internal ignition from a
separator failure.
Each cell is in a steel cylinder that can contain a single cell failure
and minimize the probability of cascade failure. A fully-charged cell contains about 10-20 Wh of energy.
Some car manufacturers use larger format cells with significantly larger storage per cell.
I'm certain that few cheap Chinese bike and scooter batteries have anyI believe that some of those use pouch cells (similar to those in cell-phones, tablets and notebook computers). There is less physical protection against cascade failure in that case.
sort of safety systems. As they age, they may get more dangerous.
kw
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:27:46 -0700, John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:07:59 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com wrote: >>> On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
The population mix makes a bigger difference. Bad guys will always
find guns.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:27:46 -0700, John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:07:59 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters, >>>>>>>>>> surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what
people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million >>>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured >>>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a
population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is >>> just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
The population mix makes a bigger difference. Bad guys will always
find guns.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
On 2024/04/14 10:09 a.m., Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:27:46 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:07:59 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what >>>> people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million >>>>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured >>>>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your
chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a >>>>> population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with
guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is >>>> just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
The population mix makes a bigger difference. Bad guys will always
find guns.
If there are guns to be easily found.
Make it harder to find guns, and bad guys can't get them easily. Where
it is easier to procure guns, gun violence is increased. Where it is
harder to get guns, fewer people are killed. Gun dealers don't want that >message getting out though.
I don't think the US has ore bad people than anywhere else. People are >people. Bullies who can't get guns readily are easier to stop.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
The correct anecdote would be
"Guns don't kill people (all by themselves), people (find it easier) to
kill people (using guns)."
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 22:58:18 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:
On 2024/04/14 10:09 a.m., Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 18:27:46 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highNONOlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:07:59 -0700, John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com>
wrote:
On 2024/04/12 9:52 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:22:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
On 4/12/2024 10:04 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 12/04/2024 9:16 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-04-12 07:19, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 9/04/2024 3:03 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 4/8/24 18:35, John Larkin wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-68744317
It doesn't look like that one was charging.
Lithium battery fires are a big deal in New York too.
San Fancisco is swarming with illegal, unlicensed electric scooters,
surfboards, wheelie things, bikes, and motorcycles.
As are most cities with access to Amazon/eBay...(no regulations on what >>>>> people can sell on these platforms)
...
And fretting about the hazards of exploding batteries with 300 million >>>>>>> guns floating around is pretty schizophrenic. Compared to being injured >>>>>>> by an exploding bike (or shot by a stranger for that matter) your >>>>>>> chances of being shot by a police officer are at least the same, or higher.
About 1300 people were killed by police in the US last year, out of a >>>>>> population of 333 million, about 4 PPM. Cops rarely shoot polite
law-abiding citizens; don't threaten people, especially cops, with >>>>>> guns or knives.
Here in Canada the average number of people killed by police annually is >>>>> just under 40 per year since 2011. Out of a population of roughly
40,000,000 or 1 PPM in other words.
Perhaps our gun laws do make a difference.
John :-#)#
The population mix makes a bigger difference. Bad guys will always
find guns.
If there are guns to be easily found.
Make it harder to find guns, and bad guys can't get them easily. Where
it is easier to procure guns, gun violence is increased. Where it is
harder to get guns, fewer people are killed. Gun dealers don't want that
message getting out though.
I don't think the US has ore bad people than anywhere else. People are
people. Bullies who can't get guns readily are easier to stop.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
The correct anecdote would be
"Guns don't kill people (all by themselves), people (find it easier) to
kill people (using guns)."
That's too verbose, it'll never catch on.
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