Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of >antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias applied >to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 02:13:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of >>antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias applied >>to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
The other option is to put a polyfuse in series with the resistor. I'd
have to test that to make sure the poly opens before the resistor
does.
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:applied
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias
to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:applied
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of
antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias
to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Put two antiparallel Schotky diodes in series across the shunt, four altogether. That also reduces your anode-cathode capacitance and improves high frequency response.
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage at
low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
--
piglet
On 2/28/24 12:58, piglet wrote:
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:applied
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want >>>>> to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit >>>>> the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so >>>>> we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used >>>>> in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock. >>>>>
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them. >>>>> I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in >>>>> stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of
antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias
to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Put two antiparallel Schotky diodes in series across the shunt, four
altogether. That also reduces your anode-cathode capacitance and improves >>> high frequency response.
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage at
low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
low leakage in reverse, but in forward, maybe
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/forward-leakage-of-a-diode/msg1287509/#msg1287509
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage at
low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
--
piglet
How would that be any different than having two forward-biased diodes in parallel? Except the current would be limited to the maximum base current.
How would it reduce the leakage at low voltages?
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:applied
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock. >>>>
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of
antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias
to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Put two antiparallel Schotky diodes in series across the shunt, four
altogether. That also reduces your anode-cathode capacitance and improves
high frequency response.
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage at
low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 21:41:57 +0100, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
wrote:
On 2/28/24 12:58, piglet wrote:
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:applied
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want >>>>>> to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit >>>>>> the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so >>>>>> we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA >>>>>> and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used >>>>>> in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock. >>>>>>
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them. >>>>>> I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in >>>>>> stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of
antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias
to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Put two antiparallel Schotky diodes in series across the shunt, four
altogether. That also reduces your anode-cathode capacitance and improves >>>> high frequency response.
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage at >>> low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
low leakage in reverse, but in forward, maybe
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/forward-leakage-of-a-diode/msg1287509/#msg1287509
I guess the question is, given a hunky diode, rated 2 amps or so, does
it behave, forward-direction, exponentially all the way down to
nanoamps?
On 2/29/24 21:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 21:41:57 +0100, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
wrote:
On 2/28/24 12:58, piglet wrote:
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want >>>>>>> to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit >>>>>>> the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so >>>>>>> we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA >>>>>>> and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used >>>>>>> in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock. >>>>>>>
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher >>>>>>> forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them. >>>>>>> I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in >>>>>>> stock are gigantic.
Depending on the accuracy required, you might want either a pair of >>>>>> antiparallel PN diodes, or else a bridge with a little bit of bias >>>>> applied
to keep the diodes back-biased.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Put two antiparallel Schotky diodes in series across the shunt, four >>>>> altogether. That also reduces your anode-cathode capacitance and improves >>>>> high frequency response.
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage at >>>> low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
low leakage in reverse, but in forward, maybe
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/forward-leakage-of-a-diode/msg1287509/#msg1287509
I guess the question is, given a hunky diode, rated 2 amps or so, does
it behave, forward-direction, exponentially all the way down to
nanoamps?
the curves show a few 1A diodes down to 1nA
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
On 28/02/2024 8:50 am, john larkin wrote:
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
If you want really quite low leakage, you could put two pairs of
antiparallel diodes in series, and use an op-amp to drive the voltage
across one of the pairs of diodes to about zero, by driving the midpoint
of the diode string to the same voltage as one of the ends.
Assume we have a 1-ohm 2512 current shunt resistor that we don't want
to fry. My thought is to put a pair of big diodes across it to limit
the current. The associated ADC will be maybe +-250 mV full scale, so
we don't want the diodes to conduct much current there.
A 3 amp PN power diode might work, maybe starting from 0.6v at 1 mA
and declining 60 mV per decade of current. A pair of TVS zeners, used
in their forward directions might work; we have lots of them in stock.
So, I wonder if some doping magic makes a zener diode have higher
forward drop if it's a higher voltage zener?
Easier to ask than to pull a bunch of parts from stock and test them.
I'm feeling lazy today.
A shorted bridge rectifier would give me two diode drops. The ones in
stock are gigantic.
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage
at low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
piglet
How would that be any different than having two forward-biased diodes
in parallel? Except the current would be limited to the maximum base
current.
How would it reduce the leakage at low voltages?
The current is limited by maximum collector current rating not base
current.
E-B junction is far better than many PN diodes.
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Or perhaps BJT wired as transdiode (E to C+B) should have low leakage
at low voltage? Two inverse parallel for both directions.
piglet
How would that be any different than having two forward-biased diodes
in parallel? Except the current would be limited to the maximum base
current.
How would it reduce the leakage at low voltages?
The current is limited by maximum collector current rating not base
current.
E-B junction is far better than many PN diodes.
Your term "transdiode" threw me on a wild goose chase.
The term transdiode was used by Patterson in his 1984 patent:
Patterson Transdiode
US4450414A
Inventor Raymond B. Patterson, III
Current Assignee Intersil Corp
High temperature current mirror amplifier https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/14/d7/e1/096a85e0cc0fba/US44504 14.pdf
It is used in Logarithmic Amplifier feedback networks:
Analog Devices Dual Matched NPN Transistor MAT12
Figure 18. Log Conformance Circuit, Page 9 of 12 https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2178247.pdf
It is not suitable for a voltage clamp across a 25 ohm resistor.
Your description of an E-B junction as better than many PN diodes threw me for another loop. The base is very thin and not suited for high current. I could find no datasheet that specified the maximum base current.
What you really meant to say was a diode-connected transistor, which you describe as E to C+B.
This conducts very little current at 250 millivolts forward voltage. For example, a 2N2219 conducts only 240 pa, which is negligible in this application.
For your enjoyment, I include the LTspice files. I checked to make sure
they work in IV and XII, and that there are no line wrap problems. I cannot verify they will work in 17 since I am running Win7 32 bit and have no intention of going to 64 bit or MS 10.
SHEET 1 1140 1108
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SYMBOL voltage -1040 -624 R0
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WINDOW 3 9 56 Right 2
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 1
SYMATTR Value2 AC 1
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=2
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WINDOW 0 63 29 Left 2
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SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value 2N2219A
SYMBOL res -992 -608 R270
WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 56 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 500ต
TEXT -1048 -784 Left 2 ;'2N2219 Forward Voltage
TEXT -1024 -744 Left 2 !.dc V1 0 0.25 1m
[DC transfer characteristic]
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{
traces: 1 {303038468,0,"Ic(Q1)"}
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Amps: ('p',0,0,0,0,3e-011,2.7e-010)
Log: 0 0 0
GridStyle: 1
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}
You are right about diode-connected transistors. An ordinary PN diode such
as the MURS120 conducts 9.5 ua at 250 mv, and would not be suitable in this application.
Sorry if I created confusion, I first heard the term ƒ otransdiode ƒ o
for the E to CB connection back in the 1960s and assumed it was well
known. There are other possible permutations of using a bipolar
transistor as a diode each with different characteristics.
--
piglet
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sorry if I created confusion, I first heard the term â otransdiode â o
for the E to CB connection back in the 1960s and assumed it was well
known. There are other possible permutations of using a bipolar
transistor as a diode each with different characteristics.
--
piglet
Nontheless, a diode-connected 2N2219 would be an ideal solution for Larkin. 240 pa is a billion times lower than 250 ma, so it is negligible.
And your post is the reason we found out.
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sorry if I created confusion, I first heard the term ƒ otransdiode ƒ o
for the E to CB connection back in the 1960s and assumed it was well
known. There are other possible permutations of using a bipolar
transistor as a diode each with different characteristics.
--
piglet
Nontheless, a diode-connected 2N2219 would be an ideal solution for Larkin. >240 pa is a billion times lower than 250 ma, so it is negligible.
And your post is the reason we found out.
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sorry if I created confusion, I first heard the term â otransdiode â
o for the E to CB connection back in the 1960s and assumed it was well
known. There are other possible permutations of using a bipolar
transistor as a diode each with different characteristics.
--
piglet
Nontheless, a diode-connected 2N2219 would be an ideal solution for
Larkin. 240 pa is a billion times lower than 250 ma, so it is
negligible.
And your post is the reason we found out.
Too wimpy. Fault currents of 2A were mentioned.
I hadn’t thought about transdiode forward current being super low—that’s a good candidate for the bag of tricks, thanks.
Of course the beta tanks at very low V_CE, so you’d basically just get
the forward conduction of the B-E diode.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sorry if I created confusion, I first heard the term â otransdiode â >>>> o for the E to CB connection back in the 1960s and assumed it was well >>>> known. There are other possible permutations of using a bipolar
transistor as a diode each with different characteristics.
--
piglet
Nontheless, a diode-connected 2N2219 would be an ideal solution for
Larkin. 240 pa is a billion times lower than 250 ma, so it is
negligible.
And your post is the reason we found out.
Too wimpy. Fault currents of 2A were mentioned.
Model is constrained by what is available in LTspice IV and XVII. You are >free to choose another NPN.
I hadn’t thought about transdiode forward current being super
low—that’s a good candidate for the bag of tricks, thanks.
Transdiode configuration is for Log Amplifiers. You are interested in diode >connection.
Of course the beta tanks at very low V_CE, so you’d basically just get
the forward conduction of the B-E diode.
The goal is minimum forward current at low voltage. Low beta helps meet
this.
Now the question is why is the B-E conduction of a transistor so different >from a P-N diode?
Now the question is why is the BC-E conduction of a transistor so
different from a P-N diode?
Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com> wrote:
Now the question is why is the BC-E conduction of a transistor so
different from a P-N diode?
Something is fishy. I extended the sim to 1 volt, and the current remained >very low, well below a plain diode. I suspect the simulation for a >diode-connected NPN may be faulty, and it's time for bench testing. >Unfortunately, I'm in the process of remodeling and my lab is temporarily >shut down.
Version 4
SHEET 1 1140 1108
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WINDOW 0 63 53 Right 2
WINDOW 3 9 56 Right 2
SYMATTR InstName V1
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SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMBOL npn -800 -672 R0
WINDOW 0 63 29 Left 2
WINDOW 3 56 59 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value 2N2219A
SYMBOL diode -752 -400 R0
SYMATTR InstName D1
SYMATTR Value MURS120
TEXT -1048 -784 Left 2 ;'2N2219 Forward Voltage
TEXT -1024 -744 Left 2 !.dc V1 0 1 1m
[DC transfer characteristic]
{
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Active Pane: 1
{
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X: (' ',1,0,0.1,1)
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Y[1]: ('_',0,1e+308,0,-1e+308)
Amps: (' ',0,0,0,0,0.6,6.6)
Log: 0 0 0
GridStyle: 1
}
}
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