On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST), Dean
<hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

Does anyone here have residential solar panels? Does it make financial
sense?

Our next-door neighbors do, and it doesn't.

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On 1/27/2024 11:32 AM, Dean wrote:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

Yeah, age is the issue. Saving the planet when you're DEAD doesn't really
make a lot of sense. Another neighbor just went solar ("all electric"
house so his utility bill is normally pretty nasty) in a sort of lease arrangement -- the next bloke who buys his house will eat the cost.

Here, the electric utility has muddied the regulations to the point
where the only realistic approach is to go off grid (else they have
a say in what you can install and what they can charge as well as
what they have to pay you -- for your contribution to the grid).

I'm surprised more "utility islands" haven't been created... clusters of
homes ("developments") with their own "self-sufficient" energy production.
One could establish covenants -- physically and legally enforceable -- to ensure access to that energy was equitable in ways that aren't possible with municipal providers.

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On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:41:31 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST), Dean
<hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

Does anyone here have residential solar panels? Does it make financial
sense?

Our next-door neighbors do, and it doesn't.

It sure can if you have 1) good sun 2) high electric bills 3)
You're state is condusive to grid-tie and net metering and all that.

I know a few here in the Phoenix area that have minimal electric bills
(the utility has a minimum rate usually) and did have bills of $250
to $350.

Some utilities are not payin much for your distribued generation
kW-Hours BUT I think the best thing is to reduce your electric bills
and offset your self consumption. A system with batteries makes a lot
of sense.

A couple of families I have talked with have leases until paid for
solar systems (without batteries) and are very very happy with that.

I'm a solar guy myself but my panels are mostly in a storage room at
the moment. Mainly used for R&D when needed. Gotta get them on the
roof but there is a bit of beuracracy involved and is not free.

And I don't think it makes a lot of difference if the PV system is a
HV string level design or a microinverter per PV module system.

Roof mounted solar in string of modules format has extra crap needed
for installation like, Arc-Fault mitigation and per-panel Rapid
ShutDown which adds cost.

In the end, if the sun works where you are (mostly) it can really work
well.

boB

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On a sunny day (Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST)) it happened Dean <hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote in <1fb822c5-c9c3-496b-9ec6-c86052aa60e6n@googlegroups.com>:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

I have some flexible solar panels I can use on a boat or in the garden.
As long as the electrickety company works I do not use those.
If the mains breaks down I put those out, experiment has shown it is enough for cooking
and maybe run the fridge, have 250 Ah lipo battery pack and a pure sine wave converter too.
Also a small fixed solar panel (about 80 W) in a window in a bedroom upstairs, it mainly blocks outside street light but has been used to charge batteries.

No need for any financing...

The mains companies here now start asking for more money for electrickety if you feed back into the grid,
as it causes them to build more capacity....
OTOH I have survived in the wild... even the US wild... without solar power.

Bad sales people here at the door too, I just close the door on them.

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On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 06:21:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST)) it happened Dean ><hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote in ><1fb822c5-c9c3-496b-9ec6-c86052aa60e6n@googlegroups.com>:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

I have some flexible solar panels I can use on a boat or in the garden.
As long as the electrickety company works I do not use those.
If the mains breaks down I put those out, experiment has shown it is enough for cooking
and maybe run the fridge, have 250 Ah lipo battery pack and a pure sine wave converter too.
Also a small fixed solar panel (about 80 W) in a window in a bedroom upstairs, >it mainly blocks outside street light but has been used to charge batteries.

No need for any financing...

The mains companies here now start asking for more money for electrickety if you feed back into the grid,
as it causes them to build more capacity....
OTOH I have survived in the wild... even the US wild... without solar power.

Bad sales people here at the door too, I just close the door on them.

Is your utility power unreliable? Ours goes out roughly twice a year,
but just for minutes during the day. The way we know is that the
clocks on the kitchen appliances are wrong.


We have a friend that is "finding himself" by hiking the entire
Pacific Crest Trail. He has portable solar cells to charge his phone
and flashlights. When a guy does that, it may be bad news for his
wife.

Safeway is jammed with people buying all the available bad beer and
junk food. There may be some important sporting event today,
synchronized swimming or pickleball maybe.

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On a sunny day (Sun, 28 Jan 2024 10:33:54 -0800) it happened John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote in <um6drip6i536pkptn8naolis5jm4dp5133@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 06:21:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST)) it happened Dean >><hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote in >><1fb822c5-c9c3-496b-9ec6-c86052aa60e6n@googlegroups.com>:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.

<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

I have some flexible solar panels I can use on a boat or in the garden.
As long as the electrickety company works I do not use those.
If the mains breaks down I put those out, experiment has shown it is enough for cooking
and maybe run the fridge, have 250 Ah lipo battery pack and a pure sine wave converter too.
Also a small fixed solar panel (about 80 W) in a window in a bedroom upstairs,
it mainly blocks outside street light but has been used to charge batteries. >>
No need for any financing...

The mains companies here now start asking for more money for electrickety if you feed back into the grid,
as it causes them to build more capacity....
OTOH I have survived in the wild... even the US wild... without solar power. >>
Bad sales people here at the door too, I just close the door on them.

Is your utility power unreliable? Ours goes out roughly twice a year,
but just for minutes during the day. The way we know is that the
clocks on the kitchen appliances are wrong.

It depends, last one lasted about 2 hours without warning a few month ago. Every day there are short (few periods) interrupts, that is why all my computers
are on a UPS (so is the POE net here), you can hear the UPS come in when recharging.
Wall warts do not like short interrupts, all raspberries (now 3 that are on 24/7) are on same UPS.
Maybe one could use a battery HAT?

We have a friend that is "finding himself" by hiking the entire
Pacific Crest Trail. He has portable solar cells to charge his phone
and flashlights. When a guy does that, it may be bad news for his
wife.

Well having GPS in the wild may be a big plus (plus a chart)
or when you are looking for Uranium for you bombs:
https://panteltje.online/panteltje/pic/gm_pic2/

Safeway is jammed with people buying all the available bad beer and
junk food. There may be some important sporting event today,
synchronized swimming or pickleball maybe.

I am into cookies basically...
And pizza, French fries, spaghetti, mushrooms, kiwis, grapes, olive oil, bananas,
chile, am basically a vegetarian.

Its quite incredible, I have this little globe, you can easily find the US but Africa is much bigger, then my country: hard to find, even UK is small,
then my city where I live then me..
then the cells I am made of, molecules,
electrons.
If you were to look at an electron and imagine it like a globe and then look smaller and smaller.
in the same scale for details.. we know so little of the smaller world
and so little of the bigger world (universe), we are like an ant in the garden....

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On 27/01/2024 18:41, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST), Dean
<hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

Does anyone here have residential solar panels? Does it make financial
sense?

Our next-door neighbors do, and it doesn't.

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003 - I was a very early adopter
and did not do it for financial reasons but as a fun thing to do. In the
early days it was very satisfying to watch the spinning disk meter run backwards on bright days. I reckon finances broke even about one-two
years ago.

piglet

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On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:46 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On 27/01/2024 18:41, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST), Dean
<hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

Does anyone here have residential solar panels? Does it make financial
sense?

Our next-door neighbors do, and it doesn't.

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003 - I was a very early adopter
and did not do it for financial reasons but as a fun thing to do. In the >early days it was very satisfying to watch the spinning disk meter run >backwards on bright days. I reckon finances broke even about one-two
years ago.

piglet

Was it worth the hassle? Did breakeven include your time?

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On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:47 -0000 (UTC), piglet wrote:

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003

Forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean? Let's say you have 5 hours of sunshine, do you get 18kWh of energy? Does that mean the max voltage current is 3.6kW (36V, 100Amps)? And how big an area is that?

Thanks

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On 1/29/2024 11:13 AM, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:47 -0000 (UTC), piglet wrote:

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003

Forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean?

Nominal power output (under some set of illumination conditions, temperature, etc.) A typical panel is "about" 300W (some more, some less) and operates
at about 48V.

Let's say you have 5 hours of sunshine, do you get 18kWh of energy?

More or less. There are, of course, conversion losses (and moments of
cloud cover, etc.)

Does that mean the max voltage current is 3.6kW (36V, 100Amps)?

The topology varies. Some installations will "stack" panels
in series to feed a single inverter (usually limiting the
chain to about 500VDC). Some have on-board converters.
Different approaches to the same problem, each with different
tradeoffs.

Given that we are 120/240VAC residences, it's more like 15A at 240V
that feeds your home/grid.

And how big an area is that?

A panel is nominally 3'x5' covered with ~60 6"x6" cells. Here, most installations are about a dozen panels -- though we have neighbors with
as many as 24-30!

The problem, here (US desert southwest) is that our main load is cooling/refrigeration. An ACbrrrr can easily be a 10-20KW load
(many homes have multiples of these). So, you are guaranteed to
need to supplement your cogenerated power with something from
the utility. Then, when the ACbrrr cycles off, you can sell your
surplus back to the utility at a heavily discounted rate!

(in the power that you purchase from them, they charge for
distribution, taxes, fees, etc. but they will only reimburse
you for your *generation*)

And, of course, you must maintain the panels, increase the insurance
on your home to cover damages that may occur, hire folks to install
(and deinstall-reinstall if you ever have need to repair your roof),
etc.

And, you are still not isolated from the regulatory whims that affect
how you are charged for utility power and compensated for your
cogeneration.

Of course, they suffer losses in efficiency, over time, so the
initial purchase isn't the end of the issue.

Here, they can ONLY be installed on your rooftop, the utility has
a say in how many you can install (they claim solar is "overbuilt"
in certain areas so probably can veto your participation in any
cogeneration plans). They must be installed by a "professional/licensed installer", inspected, etc.

[Details are different for "commercial/industrial" uses.]

I am planning a 3KW installation to power my automation system.
But, with a small battery -- and intelligent load management -- I
am certain that I can run the system without dealing with the
cogeneration issues/regulations; treat my generation and consumption
as an entirely "personal" issue and completely eliminate the need
for a utility feed, there.

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On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:17:31 -0700, Don Y wrote:

A typical panel is "about" 300W (some more, some less) and operates
at about 48V.

Thanks. Every time the power goes out. I think about solar powering the well.
I keep buckets of water in the shower to flush the toilet when there is a
power outage. There is a storm big enough to create a risk of a power outage every other month. I lose power maybe 3 times a year and like every 3 years
it last for days. The well pump is 240VAC 3amps but it only runs for maybe
a minute a couple of times a day. So I would need a 1000W inverter, a battery that can supply a lot of current for a short duration and then be trickle charged most of the time. Sounds like a car battery to me, but maybe there
are better batteries for the job. Sounds like a single panel would keep the battery charged between pump runs. But then I always think it is more expense and trouble than it is worth to avoid keeping buckets of water in the shower.

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On 1/29/2024 3:44 AM, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:17:31 -0700, Don Y wrote:

A typical panel is "about" 300W (some more, some less) and operates
at about 48V.

Thanks. Every time the power goes out. I think about solar powering the well. I keep buckets of water in the shower to flush the toilet when there is a power outage.

Can you store the "pumped water" instead of being at the mercy of
the (inoperative) pump?

There is a storm big enough to create a risk of a power outage
every other month.

Ouch! Our outages have been from equipment failures.
All of our (neighborhood) distribution is below grade
and the cables are 10+ years past their expected design
life. Thankfully, the utility is pretty responsive
to outages (which typically only affect the dozen homes
on this branch circuit) so we have power within 4-6 hours.

Of course, it is ALWAYS in the middle of the night!
(one would assume the load would be greater during
the day when refrigeration is in greater demand)

I lose power maybe 3 times a year and like every 3 years
it last for days.

Ouch! That would be tough.

Do you have a water heater from which you can reclaim
stored water (heated though cooling over time)?
Here, a 40-80G tank is usually present in such water
heaters which can support "basic" needs for a few days.

The well pump is 240VAC 3amps but it only runs for maybe
a minute a couple of times a day. So I would need a 1000W inverter, a battery that can supply a lot of current for a short duration and then be trickle charged most of the time.

A surplus UPS may be a cheap solution. The startup load of
the pump would be the biggest issue (don't want to fry the
inverter with that surge).

Sounds like a car battery to me, but maybe there
are better batteries for the job.

I've planned on SLAs, here. Partly to avoid the fire risk
that lithium would present (and any likely regulatory concerns
for larger storage) but also for availability; I can buy
4 car batteries in 10 minutes -- even if the particular case
size I want is not in stock!

Sounds like a single panel would keep the
battery charged between pump runs. But then I always think it is more expense and trouble than it is worth to avoid keeping buckets of water in the shower.

The deciding issue would be whether or not you can store
"enough" to cover all potential outages. What if 5 days?
Or, if you find a need for water for some other purpose?

And, the potential for powering other electrical loads
that can't be addressed by "buckets of water". :>

E.g., I have at least a dozen UPSs, here. So, in an outage,
I can plug a 7W LED lamp into any of them and illuminate
the room, power a laptop (the workstations draw far too
much power to bring on-line for a long interval), a small
fan, the freezer, etc.

[You have to choose UPSs that will power on in the absence of
mains power!]

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On 1/29/2024 1:59 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 1/29/2024 3:44 AM, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:17:31 -0700, Don Y wrote:

A typical panel is "about" 300W (some more, some less) and operates
at about 48V.

Thanks. Every time the power goes out. I think about solar powering the well.
I keep buckets of water in the shower to flush the toilet when there is a
power outage.

Can you store the "pumped water" instead of being at the mercy of
the (inoperative) pump?

[That is, of course, what you are doing. But, I meant "in a
storage tank that is part of the normal plumbing" -- like the
water heater approach that I exploit. In MX, they store water
for each household in a roof-mounted tank (water is "delivered",
by truck) so that gravity feed can be exploited to develop
"pressure" in the taps]

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On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:59:03 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Can you store the "pumped water" instead of being at the mercy of
the (inoperative) pump?

I've thought about that to, but it would have to be in the house to
avoid freezing and there really isn't any room for it.

The deciding issue would be whether or not you can store
"enough" to cover all potential outages. What if 5 days?
Or, if you find a need for water for some other purpose?

I have water in the well-head and in the water heater but I reserve
that for drinking and keeping the pressure up in the system. I can
refill buckets from the creek or the pond and in the summer I have a
rain barrel and in the winter there is snow. I've only have had to use
the creek and the rain barrel to refill the buckets. First thing I do
when the power goes out is shut the valve on the toilet. I can flush
that with non-potable water.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/29/2024 5:50 AM, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:59:03 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Can you store the "pumped water" instead of being at the mercy of
the (inoperative) pump?

I've thought about that to, but it would have to be in the house to
avoid freezing and there really isn't any room for it.

How do you make your domestic hot water? Tankless heater?
Is there not enough capacity queued up, there?

The deciding issue would be whether or not you can store
"enough" to cover all potential outages. What if 5 days?
Or, if you find a need for water for some other purpose?

I have water in the well-head and in the water heater but I reserve
that for drinking and keeping the pressure up in the system. I can

OK.

refill buckets from the creek or the pond and in the summer I have a
rain barrel and in the winter there is snow. I've only have had to use
the creek and the rain barrel to refill the buckets. First thing I do
when the power goes out is shut the valve on the toilet. I can flush
that with non-potable water.

Agreed. As we are reliant on the municipal water supply, we
have to assume SOME of the pumping stations (we are reliant on
wells) will be operational (unless a metropolitan-area outage).
Folks with spas and pools could salvage water from those
for non-potable needs (which can often be significant!)

It's hard to NOT have some dependencies, especially as most
are "tedious" efforts to work-around.

You might look into one of these "solar generators"... a single
panel that charges an inverter-with-internal-battery. I think
they are intended for camping type applications.

You can also purchase small gas-powered generators. The issue there
would be maintenance so it is "available" when needed.

And, of course, running your ICE and powering an inverter off
its battery (presumably, maintaining THAT would be a matter of
normal use)

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On 29/01/2024 11:13, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:47 -0000 (UTC), piglet wrote:

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003

Forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean? Let's say you have 5 hours of sunshine, do you get 18kWh of energy? Does that mean the max voltage current is 3.6kW (36V, 100Amps)? And how big an area is that?

Thanks

In detail I have 20 panels each rated 180W output at standard solation.
They are Sanyo hybrids each with approx 1.6m square area. Over the past
20+ years the price has fallen and output (i.e. efficiency) has
increased. Hybrid here means mono-crystalline silicon cells with
amorphous silicon cell layers.

Those 20 panels are wired as four strings of five in series. The open
circuit voltage of one panel is 60-70V. Each pair of strings is
paralleled and feeds one of two 1800W grid-tied inverters. The DC input
voltage to the inverters is 300-350V

Yes, if there were 5 hours of "standard" sunshine then 18kWh energy
would be generated.

piglet

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On 29/01/2024 14:18, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:46 +0000, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On 27/01/2024 18:41, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:32:06 -0800 (PST), Dean
<hoffman54dean@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm too old to think about changing my current set up for heat and air conditioning. Fast talking salesmen had a market.
<<https://time.com/6565415/rooftop-solar-industry-collapse/>>

Does anyone here have residential solar panels? Does it make financial
sense?

Our next-door neighbors do, and it doesn't.

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003 - I was a very early adopter
and did not do it for financial reasons but as a fun thing to do. In the
early days it was very satisfying to watch the spinning disk meter run
backwards on bright days. I reckon finances broke even about one-two
years ago.

piglet

Was it worth the hassle? Did breakeven include your time?

It took almost none of my time, the crew did it in three days. I think
now they are much quicker for similar sized installs.

It was a fun thing to do and I have no regrets!

piglet

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On 1/31/24 12:51, piglet wrote:

On 29/01/2024 11:13, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:47 -0000 (UTC), piglet wrote:

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003

Forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean? Let's say you have 5
hours of sunshine, do you get 18kWh of energy? Does that mean the max
voltage current is 3.6kW (36V, 100Amps)? And how big an area is that?

Thanks

In detail I have 20 panels each rated 180W output at standard solation.
They are Sanyo hybrids each with approx 1.6m square area. Over the past
20+ years the price has fallen and output (i.e. efficiency) has
increased. Hybrid here means mono-crystalline silicon cells with
amorphous silicon cell layers.

Those 20 panels are wired as four strings of five in series. The open
circuit voltage of one panel is 60-70V. Each pair of strings is
paralleled and feeds one of two 1800W grid-tied inverters. The DC input voltage to the inverters is 300-350V

Yes, if there were 5 hours of "standard" sunshine then 18kWh energy
would be generated.

piglet

... which is worth $3, or thereabouts. Looks like a lot of equipment
for very little result.

Jeroen Belleman

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 14:26:26 +0100, Jeroen Belleman wrote:

On 1/31/24 12:51, piglet wrote:

On 29/01/2024 11:13, Wanderer wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 07:55:47 -0000 (UTC), piglet wrote:

Yes, I do. Have 3.6kW of panels since 2003

Forgive my ignorance, but what does that mean? Let's say you have 5
hours of sunshine, do you get 18kWh of energy? Does that mean the max
voltage current is 3.6kW (36V, 100Amps)? And how big an area is that?

Thanks

In detail I have 20 panels each rated 180W output at standard solation.
They are Sanyo hybrids each with approx 1.6m square area. Over the past
20+ years the price has fallen and output (i.e. efficiency) has
increased. Hybrid here means mono-crystalline silicon cells with
amorphous silicon cell layers.

Those 20 panels are wired as four strings of five in series. The open
circuit voltage of one panel is 60-70V. Each pair of strings is
paralleled and feeds one of two 1800W grid-tied inverters. The DC input
voltage to the inverters is 300-350V

Yes, if there were 5 hours of "standard" sunshine then 18kWh energy
would be generated.

piglet

... which is worth $3, or thereabouts. Looks like a lot of equipment for
very little result.

Jeroen Belleman

18kWh 0.2$/kWh 365days/year 20years = $26,280

Based on below average solar insolation, cost of electricity and system
life expectancy. Solar is the cheapest electricity you can buy in a lot
of places. Why pay more?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/31/2024 2:46 PM, Glen Walpert wrote:

18kWh 0.2$/kWh 365days/year 20years = $26,280

Based on below average solar insolation, cost of electricity and system
life expectancy. Solar is the cheapest electricity you can buy in a lot
of places. Why pay more?

What do you factor in for roof maintenance (do you get 20 years out of a
roof?) and the licensed installers who have to disconnect your kit
before you can make those repairs and then reinstall -- and have it
inspected -- before you can resume its use (costs that would be
unnecessary with a "clean" roof)?

Note that even if you reduce your demand to fit entirely within
your cogeneration capabilities, you will have to pay the utility
if grid connected -- even if just a fixed, monthly "service charge".
And, what they charge can be varied, over time ("We need the solar
folks to subsidize the RENTERS who can't have their own solar
power..." etc.)

The utility, here, is working HARD to make solar as expensive as
possible using every legal lever they can manipulate (and, they
have far more clout than individual users/cogenerators)

[I believe I am located in the BEST place (desert southwest) for
solar -- in terms of conceptual payback -- yet it's a struggle to
beat the hurdles that are placed before your adoption!]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:31:40 -0700, Don Y wrote:

On 1/31/2024 2:46 PM, Glen Walpert wrote:

18kWh 0.2$/kWh 365days/year 20years = $26,280

Based on below average solar insolation, cost of electricity and system
life expectancy. Solar is the cheapest electricity you can buy in a
lot of places. Why pay more?

What do you factor in for roof maintenance (do you get 20 years out of a roof?) and the licensed installers who have to disconnect your kit
before you can make those repairs and then reinstall -- and have it
inspected -- before you can resume its use (costs that would be
unnecessary with a "clean" roof)?

Good point, the roof needs to be considered in your economic analysis, and unless you have a roof which can be expected to last more than 20 years -
brand new fiberglass shingle, or metal, membrane, tile in good condition -
then it will be most economical to replace the roof at the same time solar
is installed. Unfortunately the low first cost fiberglass roofing is more popular than the durable low life cycle cost alternatives with a good
chance of outliving a 30 year solar installation.

Note that even if you reduce your demand to fit entirely within your cogeneration capabilities, you will have to pay the utility if grid
connected -- even if just a fixed, monthly "service charge". And, what
they charge can be varied, over time ("We need the solar folks to
subsidize the RENTERS who can't have their own solar power..." etc.)

The utility, here, is working HARD to make solar as expensive as
possible using every legal lever they can manipulate (and, they have far
more clout than individual users/cogenerators)

[I believe I am located in the BEST place (desert southwest) for solar
-- in terms of conceptual payback -- yet it's a struggle to beat the
hurdles that are placed before your adoption!]

A common problem in the US, utilities which do not want competition are
making the "contributions" which insure that legislation written by their lobbyists is enacted. In Florida a regulation requiring all solar systems meeting more than a small amount of customer demand be utility owned and operated - they rent your roof and give you a bit of a raw deal discount
on electricity - was soundly defeated in a voter referendum despite heavy deceptive utility advertising, and then enacted by executive order by Ron DeSantis, recipient of big utility "contributions". Not much Solar in
Florida. Texas by contrast has little regulation and loads of solar.
Here in PA we have decent regulations but only moderate insolation,
payback time is longer but still worthwhile for those with a good
location.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/2/2024 4:39 PM, Glen Walpert wrote:

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:31:40 -0700, Don Y wrote:

On 1/31/2024 2:46 PM, Glen Walpert wrote:

18kWh 0.2$/kWh 365days/year 20years = $26,280

Based on below average solar insolation, cost of electricity and system
life expectancy. Solar is the cheapest electricity you can buy in a
lot of places. Why pay more?

What do you factor in for roof maintenance (do you get 20 years out of a
roof?) and the licensed installers who have to disconnect your kit
before you can make those repairs and then reinstall -- and have it
inspected -- before you can resume its use (costs that would be
unnecessary with a "clean" roof)?

Good point, the roof needs to be considered in your economic analysis, and unless you have a roof which can be expected to last more than 20 years - brand new fiberglass shingle, or metal, membrane, tile in good condition - then it will be most economical to replace the roof at the same time solar
is installed.

Most installers, here, will inspect the roof prior to installation.
As *they* usually aren't in the "new roof" business (though that isn't
any guarantee that they aren't in cahoots with someone who *is*!),
you assume they will give an honest appraisal.

Unfortunately the low first cost fiberglass roofing is more
popular than the durable low life cycle cost alternatives with a good
chance of outliving a 30 year solar installation.

There are many different types of roofs in use, here:
tile (clay and concrete), asphalt shingles, built-up (rolled felt),
metal (tin or copper), membrane, etc.

But, none seem to be truly durable. All of our neighbors have had at
least one "new" roof installed (ours is 30 years old but is maintained, actively, by me -- on an annual basis).

I suspect part of the problem is related to construction techniques.
I.e., with no snow load to worry about, roof joists are often on 24in
centers, 1/2 plywood deck. Building on slabs means the houses
"shift" with changes in the ground structure (e.g., subsidence from
ground water pumping); almost every home shows signs of cracking in
the exterior (usually stucco over block -- though even stucco over
wood frame has problems!).

A common problem is gaps forming at roof penetrations as things "move"
(hence my annual maintenance activity).

The constant heat and solar exposure also dries out most materials.
It will be interesting to see if the shading afforded by panels
lessens this problem... or, just makes it more noticeable in
unshaded portions of the roof!

We note that "commercial"/public installations aren't *on*
roofs but, rather, are canopies made from the panels -- no
decking under them (which likely improves thermal performance
as it allows for better air circulation). The roof requirement
for homeowners probably is an acknowledgement that most
homeowners have no other structures that can support panels!

Note that even if you reduce your demand to fit entirely within your
cogeneration capabilities, you will have to pay the utility if grid
connected -- even if just a fixed, monthly "service charge". And, what
they charge can be varied, over time ("We need the solar folks to
subsidize the RENTERS who can't have their own solar power..." etc.)

The utility, here, is working HARD to make solar as expensive as
possible using every legal lever they can manipulate (and, they have far
more clout than individual users/cogenerators)

[I believe I am located in the BEST place (desert southwest) for solar
-- in terms of conceptual payback -- yet it's a struggle to beat the
hurdles that are placed before your adoption!]

A common problem in the US, utilities which do not want competition are making the "contributions" which insure that legislation written by their lobbyists is enacted.

Of course! "Momma dint raise no dummies!"

But, this just delays the reckoning. Eventually, the technology will
be such that homes will be 100% "alternative power" with *no* reliance
on the utility. And, the utility will be stuck having to maintain
all of that "cogeneration" that they bet their business on!

[E.g., the phone company has miles of copper that they have to
maintain -- to some degree -- yet doesn't generate any revenue for
them. Losing subscribers (due to poor quality or bad pricing policies)
is just a slow sink into irrelevance: "No thanks, I'll get my
phone service from X, Y or Z -- and my internet/TV from A, B or C"]

In Florida a regulation requiring all solar systems
meeting more than a small amount of customer demand be utility owned and operated - they rent your roof and give you a bit of a raw deal discount
on electricity - was soundly defeated in a voter referendum despite heavy deceptive utility advertising, and then enacted by executive order by Ron DeSantis, recipient of big utility "contributions". Not much Solar in Florida.

All of the "reasons" *seem* to make sense, superficially
(e.g., my suggestion that solar customers will be required to
pay a subsidy to underwrite part of the energy costs of
folks who *can't* have solar -- renters -- in much the
same way that rural telecom is subsidized by other consumers)

But, in sum, all of these nickels and dimes conspire to make
it hard for folks to adopt what would otherwise be a no-brainer
(certainly for younger people!)

Texas by contrast has little regulation and loads of solar.
Here in PA we have decent regulations but only moderate insolation,
payback time is longer but still worthwhile for those with a good
location.

I think the only *practical* way for me to exploit solar is to
NOT rely on the utility for "storage" -- so they (and the regulations
they have pushed) don't have a say in my installation.

E.g., if I used solar power to run an electric heater to heat
water for a swimming pool, never selling any excess power
to the grid, why should they have a say in my installation?

Similarly, if I was totally "off grid", what say -- other than
building codes?

At least, that's the approach I've planned on. Install your own
panels and payback is probably a couple of years instead of
decades!

~6.5 peak solar hours/day (avg)
~5KW array
~32KWHr/day (avg)
~13c/KWHr *delivered*
~$4/day (avg) or $1500/yr
~$7K equipment cost
~4-5 yr payback

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)