• Re: mental imaging

    From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Wed Mar 6 12:09:55 2024
    On 2024-01-05, Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:r
    On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:21:08 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>> This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-
    images-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing
    geometric patterns, which are distinct fromhallucinations.>>I wonder if that's related to not having an 'Internal monologue '.> Eg; talking to oneself. >>Cheers Some people really talk to themselves, out loud, which can beconfusing to others.

    I'm referring to internal, not out loud. Search 'internal
    monologue ' on youtube. It's interesting, never knew there were
    people like that.

    It's a real thing, but it doesn't come with a reverb effect
    like in the movies.

    --
    Jasen.
    🇺🇦 Слава Україні

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  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to legg on Wed Mar 6 07:15:28 2024
    On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 10:40:16 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 16:37:24 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
    wrote:

    This has been in the science news lately.
    https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words

    Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >>objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.

    And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we) >>always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from >>hallucinations.

    Why would you have to close your eyes to 'visualize' something?

    I think some people visualize better that way. I do, a bit.

    People are very different.


    I think someone's confusing vision with activity in the brain.

    There's a difference?


    RL

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  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Mar 6 07:31:57 2024
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
    [...]
    When do you get your best electronic design ideas?

    When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>> good long
    way ;) )

    My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components,
    there is
    a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that
    could be
    made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>> parts
    make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>> days?

    Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>> them simultaneously.


    There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":

    <https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>

    Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
    person is
    unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
    think in
    words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>> what if
    any disciplines are involved.

    Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.

    Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
    substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>> common words.

    I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.

    My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through.  Why? >>>>>
    He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
    electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.

    But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
    from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>> in a real EE job.

    So he switched majors.  My reaction at the time was that he was
    exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.

    Joe Gwinn

    I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
    stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
    wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes
    regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
    Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take
    particularly seriously.

    I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
    not electrons.

    Probably some non-white non-male people can too.


    I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others.
    and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
    avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.

    The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
    back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
    much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
    more common, but not as cute a story.

    Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
    20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
    in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
    department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
    abstruse at least for me at 20.

    Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
    that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
    universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.

    People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
    for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
    provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
    "electronic design" that I know of.

    I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
    engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
    rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
    another discussion.

    I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
    We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
    ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.

    Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
    best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics
    designers?

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Wed Mar 6 15:02:05 2024
    On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 17:36:52 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-03-06 10:31, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
    On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
    [...]
    When do you get your best electronic design ideas?

    When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>>>> good long
    way ;) )

    My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, >>>>>>>>>> there is
    a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that >>>>>>>>>> could be
    made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>>>> parts
    make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>>>> days?

    Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>>>> them simultaneously.


    There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":

    <https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>

    Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the >>>>>>>>> person is
    unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only >>>>>>>>> think in
    words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>>>> what if
    any disciplines are involved.

    Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >>>>>>>>
    Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely >>>>>>>> substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>>>> common words.

    I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.

    My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through.  Why? >>>>>>>
    He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the >>>>>>> electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.

    But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way >>>>>>> from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>>>> in a real EE job.

    So he switched majors.  My reaction at the time was that he was
    exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.

    Joe Gwinn

    I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of >>>>>> stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I >>>>>> wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >>>>>> regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa >>>>>> Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >>>>>> particularly seriously.

    I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
    not electrons.

    Probably some non-white non-male people can too.


    I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others. >>>> and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
    avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.

    The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
    back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
    much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
    more common, but not as cute a story.

    Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age >>>> 20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants >>>> in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
    department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
    abstruse at least for me at 20.

    Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
    that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
    universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.

    People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
    for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
    provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
    "electronic design" that I know of.

    I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
    engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
    rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
    another discussion.

    I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named
    corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
    We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
    ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.

    Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
    best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics
    designers?

    As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually >design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.

    (Insert obligatory vigorous disagreement on the value of rigorous math.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Math is wonderful and necessary. But it doesn't have ideas.

    When I was at Tulane, the ee dean told me that undergraduates don't do
    design, that was reserved for grad school. Funny.

    I've employed two, maybe three, PhDs and I didn't find them to be
    especially creative. They seemed to be afraid to break rules. I do
    have a very recent PhD hire that I'm optimistic about; she has had a
    bunch of hands-on experience in power electronics and had ideas in an
    interview brainstorm.

    It would be fun to teach a course on electronic design.

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Wed Mar 6 17:36:52 2024
    On 2024-03-06 10:31, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>
    On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
    [...]
    When do you get your best electronic design ideas?

    When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>>> good long
    way ;) )

    My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, >>>>>>>>> there is
    a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that >>>>>>>>> could be
    made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>>> parts
    make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>>> days?

    Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>>> them simultaneously.


    There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":

    <https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>

    Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
    person is
    unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
    think in
    words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>>> what if
    any disciplines are involved.

    Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >>>>>>>
    Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
    substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>>> common words.

    I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.

    My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through.  Why? >>>>>>
    He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the >>>>>> electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.

    But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way >>>>>> from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>>> in a real EE job.

    So he switched majors.  My reaction at the time was that he was
    exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.

    Joe Gwinn

    I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
    stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
    wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >>>>> regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
    Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >>>>> particularly seriously.

    I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
    not electrons.

    Probably some non-white non-male people can too.


    I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others. >>> and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
    avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.

    The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
    back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
    much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
    more common, but not as cute a story.

    Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
    20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
    in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
    department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
    abstruse at least for me at 20.

    Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
    that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
    universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.

    People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
    for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
    provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
    "electronic design" that I know of.

    I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
    engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
    rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
    another discussion.

    I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
    We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
    ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.

    Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
    best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics designers?

    As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually
    design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.

    (Insert obligatory vigorous disagreement on the value of rigorous math.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Don@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Thu Mar 7 04:19:44 2024
    Phil Hobbs wrote:

    <snip>

    As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.

    Bless you. My fondest college memories entail studying for my BSEE at CU Boulder's Engineering Library. My dad attended CU Boulder about the same
    time as Widlar.

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Mar 7 15:19:44 2024
    On 7/03/2024 2:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
    On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:

    <snip>

    Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
    best at ee "didaction" ?

    None of them are much good at it. Electronic engineering is an art, and
    what universities do is provide access to knowledge. Harvard gave us
    "The Art of Electronics" which is a great textbook for clever students,
    but can't turn them into good engineers.

    What countries create the best electronics designers?

    Lots of them. One of the best I knew was born in Ethiopia, and in the UK
    I worked with very good people who were born in India and Pakistan,
    though most of them came from England and Scotland. The Welsh were under-represented but there weren't all that many of them in south east England.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Don on Thu Mar 7 16:39:59 2024
    On 7/03/2024 3:19 pm, Don wrote:
    Phil Hobbs wrote:

    <snip>

    As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually
    design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.

    Bless you. My fondest college memories entail studying for my BSEE at CU Boulder's Engineering Library. My dad attended CU Boulder about the same
    time as Widlar.

    Bob Widlar certainly could design stuff. So could Barry Gilbert.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrie_Gilbert

    He got his degree in applied Physics from the Bournemouth Municipal
    College, in the UK in 1962. It's not a famous tertiary educational institution.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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