This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
On 2024-01-03, John Larkin wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize
objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
I can't (or well not well). Like "close your eyes and imagine an apple" >might (*MIGHT*) get me "circle, red, stick out the top" (otherwise, just
the black of the inside of my eyelids.
On the other hand, ask me to draw a shape that'll fold into a cube, and
I'll whip that up right quick (plus tabs for glue, etc). Likewise, stuff
like "will this bookshelf fit on that wall" type things can usually be >generalized to a "yeah, probably" or "notta chance" by eye.
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 01:07:51 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-03, John Larkin wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize
objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
I can't (or well not well). Like "close your eyes and imagine an apple" >>might (*MIGHT*) get me "circle, red, stick out the top" (otherwise, just >>the black of the inside of my eyelids.
On the other hand, ask me to draw a shape that'll fold into a cube, and >>I'll whip that up right quick (plus tabs for glue, etc). Likewise, stuff >>like "will this bookshelf fit on that wall" type things can usually be >>generalized to a "yeah, probably" or "notta chance" by eye.
That's interesting. You can invent things with a pencil, on paper, but
you can't visualize them?
I can visualize simple circuits, but serious stuff must be drawn. With
a pencil on paper, not CAD. Visualization is often a sort of
out-of-focus image, a hint of what's possible.
I'm very good at sizes and volumes, as whether the leftover soup in
the pot will fit into this square plastic storage thing. Good to about
5% there. I also guess circuit values pretty close. I notice that some engineers are terrible at estimating magnitudes, like whether PCB
capacitance will affect this circuit (when it won't by a million-to-1)
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)
always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from hallucinations.
On 03/01/2024 00:37, John Larkin wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize
objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
It probably isn't a massive handicap to them unless they want to become
a sculptor or an artist. They cannot visualise things or recall images.
I rely on my visual memory to figure some problems out and then write
them down. I have known people who could solve serious mathematical
problems without writing anything down at all - that is impressive.
Playing blindfold chess is another visual memory trick worthy of note.
Visual memory can also defeat some of the oft used simple tests for >Alzheimers since one of them is apple, ball and chair - visualising that >scene bypasses the memory paths that they are trying to test.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)
always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from
hallucinations.
Depending how dark your environment you see thermal shot noise on the
retina after a few hours in true total darkness.
As in photographic manufacturing plant darkroom conditions or deep cave.
It is darker in there than the darkest outdoors.
BTW Happy New Year
It probably isn't a massive handicap to them unless they want to become a sculptor or an artist. They cannot visualise things or recall images.
I rely on my visual memory to figure some problems out and then write them down. I have known people who could solve serious mathematical problems without
writing anything down at all - that is impressive.
Playing blindfold chess is another visual memory trick worthy of note.
Visual memory can also defeat some of the oft used simple tests for Alzheimers
since one of them is apple, ball and chair - visualising that scene bypasses the memory paths that they are trying to test.
This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can stilldesign electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct fromhallucinations.
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 15:07:57 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 03/01/2024 00:37, John Larkin wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize
objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
It probably isn't a massive handicap to them unless they want to become
a sculptor or an artist. They cannot visualise things or recall images.
I rely on my visual memory to figure some problems out and then write
them down. I have known people who could solve serious mathematical
problems without writing anything down at all - that is impressive.
Playing blindfold chess is another visual memory trick worthy of note.
Visual memory can also defeat some of the oft used simple tests for
Alzheimers since one of them is apple, ball and chair - visualising that
scene bypasses the memory paths that they are trying to test.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)
always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from
hallucinations.
Depending how dark your environment you see thermal shot noise on the
retina after a few hours in true total darkness.
As in photographic manufacturing plant darkroom conditions or deep cave.
It is darker in there than the darkest outdoors.
I see a sort of fireworks display in the dark, with occasional
geometric patterns. I once had a concussion and they went away for a
few days. You normal people live in DARKNESS!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene
BTW Happy New Year
Ditto. It may not seem like it, but the world is actually getting
better.
On 1/3/2024 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 15:07:57 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 03/01/2024 00:37, John Larkin wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >>>> objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
It probably isn't a massive handicap to them unless they want to become
a sculptor or an artist. They cannot visualise things or recall images.
I rely on my visual memory to figure some problems out and then write
them down. I have known people who could solve serious mathematical
problems without writing anything down at all - that is impressive.
Playing blindfold chess is another visual memory trick worthy of note.
Visual memory can also defeat some of the oft used simple tests for
Alzheimers since one of them is apple, ball and chair - visualising that >>> scene bypasses the memory paths that they are trying to test.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we) >>>> always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from
hallucinations.
Depending how dark your environment you see thermal shot noise on the
retina after a few hours in true total darkness.
As in photographic manufacturing plant darkroom conditions or deep cave. >>> It is darker in there than the darkest outdoors.
I see a sort of fireworks display in the dark, with occasional
geometric patterns. I once had a concussion and they went away for a
few days. You normal people live in DARKNESS!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene
About 150 mg of dextromethorphan hydrobromide and in a few hours in a
dark room you'll be seeing arcade game racecars zipping across the walls
like Frogger, not a problem at all.
Not recommended. Good news is I never got into mescaline or any of that
in my younger days.
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
This has been in the science news
lately. [...]
like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects.
I wonder if such people can still design electronics.And maybe 10% of
the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see
flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct fromhallucinations.
I wonder if that's related to not having an 'Internal monologue '.
Eg; talking to oneself.
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:rdesign electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct fromhallucinations.
This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can still
I wonder if that's related to not having an 'Internal monologue '.
Eg; talking to oneself.
Cheers
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:21:08 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>> This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:rimages-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:21:08 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>> This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-
I'm referring to internal, not out loud. Search 'internal
monologue ' on youtube. It's interesting, never knew there were
people like that.
Cheers
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)
always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from >hallucinations.
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 16:37:24 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >>objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we) >>always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from >>hallucinations.
Why would you have to close your eyes to 'visualize' something?
I think someone's confusing vision with activity in the brain.
RL
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long
way ;) )
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
Why would you have to close your eyes to 'visualize' something?
I think someone's confusing vision with activity in the brain.
On Sat, 06 Jan 2024 10:40:16 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 16:37:24 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >>>objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we) >>>always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from >>>hallucinations.
Why would you have to close your eyes to 'visualize' something?
Some people close their eyes to better hear voices or music, or
appreciate flavors or whatever. Or kiss.
I think someone's confusing vision with activity in the brain.
Both need brain bandwidth.
In some university math departments, a professor's office has a couch
where they can recline and close their eyes think about mathematics
and get paid, too.
I have my best ideas while I'm asleep. 100% available brain bandwidth.
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>> way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if
any disciplines are involved.
But total aphantasia is rare and it's a matter of degree, I expect
people who are strongly phantasic might like fiction significantly more
- imagine being able to pick up a book and visualize its contents very >strongly almost like you were watching a film. Sure save money on Netflix.
I'm not a big fiction fan, I was moreso as a kid. My test rates me
somewhere in the middle, not sure if it's an ability that perhaps tends
to decline with age and is strongest in children.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>>> way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is >>unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in >>words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >>any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking.
That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find
common words.
But total aphantasia is rare and it's a matter of degree, I expect people who are strongly phantasic might like fiction significantly more - imagine being
able to pick up a book and visualize its contents very strongly almost like you
were watching a film. Sure save money on Netflix.
I'm not a big fiction fan, I was moreso as a kid. My test rates me somewhere in
the middle, not sure if it's an ability that perhaps tends to decline with age
and is strongest in children.
Why would that be limited to fiction? Can't you "immerse yourself" in
a recounting of history, etc.? Can't you "feel" what another individual is purporting to have experienced? I.e., isn't *compassion* a form of (non-visual) visualization?
I loved sci-fi as a kid, but find it lame and boring now. But I hated classics, Jane Austin and Shakespeare sorts of stuff, but love it now.
Fortunately, I can still design electronics. I visualize basic
circuits but have to draw them to really think about them. I go
through absurd numbers of grid pads and uniball pens. The Amazon
Basics pads are pretty good.
LT Spice is a great aid to thinking.
When I was 30, I had designed hundreds of PCBs and could draw any of
their schematics from memory. I can't do that any more. No big deal,
they are on my computer now.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>>>> way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is >>>> a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be >>>> made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts >>>> make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >>> any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking.
That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find
common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969)
- the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room
only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the
EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why?
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good
grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive
in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>>>>> way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is >>>>> a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be >>>>> made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts >>>>> make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is >>>> unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in >>>> words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >>>> any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking.
That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find
common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969)
- the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room
only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the
EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why?
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good
grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive
in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me,
we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >particularly seriously.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is >>>>>> a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be >>>>>> made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts >>>>>> make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the person is >>>>> unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only think in >>>>> words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure what if >>>>> any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find
common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969)
- the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room
only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the
EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why?
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good
grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive
in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my
professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me,
we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes
regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take
particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components,
there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that
could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure
what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find
common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room
only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the
EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why?
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good
grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive
in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my
professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes
regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take
particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others.
and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 7:04:07?PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net>
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long
way ;) )
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits...
In a sense, filter cookbooks are a fit to that kind of perception. There >are tables of integrals that attempt to solve a range of problems by
just covering many forms, and yes, those are useful approaches
that could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
By knowing as much as possible about similar uses, one can
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
Quantum isn't a magic word meaning what you need. Content-addressable >memory comes closer (and human memory is content-addressable).
As Edison once said, 'To be an inventor, you need a good imagination and
a lot of junk'.
In essence, every table of integrals IS a lot of junk. So is a liberal education.
And, so is a circuit cookbook-style collection.
As Edison once said, 'To be an inventor, you need a good imagination and
a lot of junk'.
In essence, every table of integrals IS a lot of junk. So is a liberal education.
And, so is a circuit cookbook-style collection.
On Tuesday 9 January 2024 at 03:28:51 UTC, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 2:04:07 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net>Of course, setting up a "goodness" mask involves working out what you want the circuit to do, and one vital part of invention involves seeing that there is a problem that could be solved. Once you've defined the problem, the solution can be trivial.
wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, there is
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by good long >>>> way ;) )
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits
exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or
days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
Politicians define lots of problems, most of which don't actually exist, and then tout their "solutions". Hitler thought that German needed more living space. Donald Trump seems to have though that the US needed fewer immigrants.
I thought his lebensraum was just an excuse to kill people & steal their stuff.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:11:01 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, January 8, 2024 at 7:04:07?PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <d...@djph.net> wrote: >>>> On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of
them simultaneously.
Quantum isn't a magic word meaning what you need. Content-addressable
memory comes closer (and human memory is content-addressable).
I think the human brain is a quantum computer that can evaluate the
immense solution space in parallel, preferably when asleep.
One trick is to not pre-censor the space. Keep, literally, an open
mind.
As Edison once said, 'To be an inventor, you need a good imagination and
a lot of junk'.
He said a lot of cool stuff.
I recently read that when he developed the light bulb and city
lighting systems, he didn't understand Ohm's Law.
In essence, every table of integrals IS a lot of junk. So is a liberal education.
And, so is a circuit cookbook-style collection.
Circuit cookbooks used to be popular. I have a couple. They are
interesting to browse.
Jim Willams' two books of essays are great. Some touch on the mental
design issues.
AoE is fabulous, worth reading cover to cover, plus the X-chapters.
john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:rimages-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:21:08 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>> This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-
I'm referring to internal, not out loud. Search 'internal
monologue ' on youtube. It's interesting, never knew there were
people like that.
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 16:37:24 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >>objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we) >>always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from >>hallucinations.
Why would you have to close your eyes to 'visualize' something?
I think someone's confusing vision with activity in the brain.
RL
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components,
there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that
could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>> what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>> common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? >>>>>
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>> in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes
regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take
particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others.
and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.
On 2024-03-06 10:31, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, >>>>>>>>>> there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that >>>>>>>>>> could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the >>>>>>>>> person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only >>>>>>>>> think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>>>> what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >>>>>>>>
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely >>>>>>>> substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>>>> common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? >>>>>>>
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the >>>>>>> electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way >>>>>>> from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>>>> in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of >>>>>> stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I >>>>>> wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >>>>>> regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa >>>>>> Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >>>>>> particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others. >>>> and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age >>>> 20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants >>>> in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.
People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
"electronic design" that I know of.
I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
another discussion.
I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named
corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.
Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics
designers?
As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually >design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.
(Insert obligatory vigorous disagreement on the value of rigorous math.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, >>>>>>>>> there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that >>>>>>>>> could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>>> what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >>>>>>>
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>>> common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? >>>>>>
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the >>>>>> electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way >>>>>> from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>>> in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >>>>> regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >>>>> particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others. >>> and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.
People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
"electronic design" that I know of.
I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
another discussion.
I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.
Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics designers?
As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
best at ee "didaction" ?
What countries create the best electronics designers?
Phil Hobbs wrote:
<snip>
As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually
design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.
Bless you. My fondest college memories entail studying for my BSEE at CU Boulder's Engineering Library. My dad attended CU Boulder about the same
time as Widlar.
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