john larkin <jl@650pot.com> Wrote in message:rimages-and-may-dream-in-wordsSomething like one to three per cent of the population can't visualizeobjects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we)always see flashing
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:21:08 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>> This has been in the science news lately.https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-
I'm referring to internal, not out loud. Search 'internal
monologue ' on youtube. It's interesting, never knew there were
people like that.
On Tue, 02 Jan 2024 16:37:24 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
This has been in the science news lately.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/why-some-people-cant-visualize-images-and-may-dream-in-words
Something like one to three per cent of the population can't visualize >>objects. I wonder if such people can still design electronics.
And maybe 10% of the population is never really in the dark. They (we) >>always see flashing geometric patterns, which are distinct from >>hallucinations.
Why would you have to close your eyes to 'visualize' something?
I think someone's confusing vision with activity in the brain.
RL
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components,
there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that
could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>> what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize.
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>> common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? >>>>>
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the
electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way
from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>> in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes
regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take
particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others.
and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.
On 2024-03-06 10:31, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, >>>>>>>>>> there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that >>>>>>>>>> could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the >>>>>>>>> person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only >>>>>>>>> think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>>>> what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >>>>>>>>
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely >>>>>>>> substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>>>> common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? >>>>>>>
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the >>>>>>> electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way >>>>>>> from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>>>> in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of >>>>>> stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I >>>>>> wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >>>>>> regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa >>>>>> Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >>>>>> particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others. >>>> and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age >>>> 20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants >>>> in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.
People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
"electronic design" that I know of.
I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
another discussion.
I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named
corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.
Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics
designers?
As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually >design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.
(Insert obligatory vigorous disagreement on the value of rigorous math.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>
On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
[...]
When do you get your best electronic design ideas?
When I've had a chance to relax (note - they're still *bad* by >>>>>>>>>> good long
way ;) )
My mental model is that, given some modest kit of components, >>>>>>>>> there is
a multidimensional "solution space" of possible circuits that >>>>>>>>> could be
made from them. With, say, 200 parts the number of possible circuits >>>>>>>>> exceeds the number of electrons in the universe. All the digikey >>>>>>>>> parts
make more. So how does one search that space in, say, a few hours or >>>>>>>>> days?
Use quantum computing. Set up a goodness mask and apply it to all of >>>>>>>>> them simultaneously.
There's a standard "mental imagery vividness test":
<https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq/>
Apparently there's a condition called "aphantasia" where the
person is
unable to visualize imagery in their "minds eye" and can only
think in
words. Purportedly more common among engineers though I'm unsure >>>>>>>> what if
any disciplines are involved.
Interesting. I would have expected that all engineers visualize. >>>>>>>
Many engineers are bad with words. I know a couple that freely
substitute milli and micro, and capacitor and inductor, when speaking. >>>>>>> That creates difficulties. Lots of engineers stutter, or can't find >>>>>>> common words.
I took Western Civilization in college (graduated with a BSEE in 1969) >>>>>> - the Professor was spellbinding, and his lectures were standing room >>>>>> only in the largest lecture hall on campus.
My Teaching Assistant for Western Civilization had started out in the >>>>>> EE department, and switched to History about half way through. Why? >>>>>>
He said that while he was passing all the academic courses with good >>>>>> grades, he had observed that his fellow EE students could "see" the >>>>>> electrons flowing, and so could jump directly to the solution.
But he could not see those electrons, and so had to analyze his way >>>>>> from first principles, which would be far too slow to be competitive >>>>>> in a real EE job.
So he switched majors. My reaction at the time was that he was
exactly correct, and that switching was a very wise decision.
Joe Gwinn
I also grew up around white male Americans. and an important step in my >>>>> professional development was ignoring the overwhelming majority of
stories dudes tell like "I can see the electrons flowing" "I knew I
wouldn't be competitive enough so I...", "Yeah Susan is totally into me, >>>>> we banged the other night, bro" and all the fantastical stories dudes >>>>> regularly tell, which even many children who still believe in Santa
Claus and the tooth fairy would be straight-up too insightful to take >>>>> particularly seriously.
I can see the current flowing on a schematic. But positive charges,
not electrons.
Probably some non-white non-male people can too.
I think it's a skill that can be learned with practice like many others. >>> and the main reason people stop doing things and get out of certain
avenues of study is they just don't like doing them.
The whole "I knew I wouldn't be competitive"-thing sounds like a
back-rationalization to me, "I got out of EE because I wasn't getting
much out of it and I wasn't really motivated by the material" is much
more common, but not as cute a story.
Young adults are fickle, I wanted to be in a big time rock band at age
20. Sounds dreadful to me now but the heart wants what the heart wants
in the moment. I was into cognitive science for a while too but the
department professors were uninspiring and the material annoyingly
abstruse at least for me at 20.
Incidentally I think another reason people leave engineering tracks is
that the quality of the didaction at anything but top-tier US
universities tends to range from just okay to abysmal.
People leave engineering mostly because they shouldn't have signed up
for it in the first place; too many do. Any engineering school that
provides the basics is good enough. Nobody teaches undergrad
"electronic design" that I know of.
I suspect that the most rigorous schools actually drive some
engineering talent away. They treat engineering as another formal,
rigorous scientific/mathematical discipline, which it's not. That's
another discussion.
I was just talking about that with a guru at a giant 2-character-named corporation. He won't work on anything below a billion dollar project.
We agree that ee schools emphasize semiconductor design too much (the
ICE in SPICE) and that the semi industry slurps up the best.
Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
best at ee "didaction" ? What countries create the best electronics designers?
As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:50:44 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 3:39 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 1/11/2024 2:15 PM, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:13:48 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 1/11/2024 10:04 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:37:59 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:46 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:02 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 01:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
On 2024-01-08, john larkin wrote:
Granted your assumption about US universities, what universities are
best at ee "didaction" ?
What countries create the best electronics designers?
Phil Hobbs wrote:
<snip>
As far as I know, the best places for turning out BSEEs who can actually
design stuff are CU Boulder and MSU Bozeman.
Bless you. My fondest college memories entail studying for my BSEE at CU Boulder's Engineering Library. My dad attended CU Boulder about the same
time as Widlar.
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