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From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:22:09 -0700
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I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
in lieu of the backup partition.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
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From: Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 00:24:05 -0000 (UTC)
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From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: cheap usb ("thumb") drives
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2023 18:33:23 -0700
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I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
in lieu of the backup partition.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
in lieu of the backup partition.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
--
|_|O|_|
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
[...]
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break
USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in
the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
Yeah, "might".
Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")
[...]
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break
USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in
the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
Well sure. But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter" branded ones)
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few reads if it
is looked after.
Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and
kept cool and dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and nasty one croak on first use but it is rare.
Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!
On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
[...]
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break
USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in
the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
Well sure. But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter" branded ones)
On Thursday, 30 November 2023 at 12:15:54 UTC, Don Y wrote:
Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
AND if you think you can get another, for free!
Some USB sticks can be very reliable. I recently tested a Samsung FIT+ 128Gbyte drive by writing data to it, reading it back and verifying continuously for a few weeks using superspeed mode. (The objective
was actually to test the superspeed interface rather than the flash.)
There were no errors.
In article <slrnumflkc.v1f.dan@djph.net>, Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
I installed a backup mechanism to copy daily backups to a thumb drive.
That failed after 6 months or so. The thumb drive is no more
recognized at all to normal usb software not even as a device.
So repetitive writing is a bad idea. (The backups were instead
copied to the mount directories. So they were there.
It was the idea to have the backups on a different medium.
Now I write to a different hard drive in the same machine.)
On 11/30/2023 5:49 AM, John Walliker wrote:
On Thursday, 30 November 2023 at 12:15:54 UTC, Don Y wrote:
Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
AND if you think you can get another, for free!
Some USB sticks can be very reliable. I recently tested a Samsung FIT+
128Gbyte drive by writing data to it, reading it back and verifying
continuously for a few weeks using superspeed mode. (The objective
was actually to test the superspeed interface rather than the flash.)
There were no errors.
I wouldn't doubt it. But, there is likely a direct relationship
between cost and quality (with exceptions). The thumb drive isn't
intended to see much use (goal: zero!) so read performance isn't
a driving force (I can reinstall an image in just a few minutes;
no need to do a real/slow "install"). This should let us drive
down the cost of the drive *and* make the drives less valuable
as possible resale items:
"Where is your restore drive?"
"I lost (sold!) it..."
Our goals are:
- don't significantly increase our costs (passed on to donors)
- ensure it's continued availability (i.e., not overwritten!)
- don't "tempt" the clients (by providing something that has
other value that they could exploit to OUR detriment)
If laptops had internal USB slots (like many servers), that
would be the ideal spot to install it.
I've lost *one* thumbdrive to malfunction (going R/O). But,
I have noticed that write speed seems to suffer with more
frequent writes.
I had initially advocated for having the kids store "their"
files on thumb drives so there was no risk of losing anything
on the disk drive if (when!) it is restored from a backup.
This seemed idea as it also broke the reliance on a particular
computer (i.e., their files could be portable).
In practice, this didn't work because of degradation in the
thumb drives.
So, now I have a second partition ("D:") that they are intended
to use as persistent storage. *If* they don't munge the disk
(like trying to install an OS upgrade), then I can restore their
"system" partition and their user files will be right where
they left them.
Again, you want to serve THEIR needs but without increasing
YOUR costs (time/effort/donations) in the process.
On 29/11/2023 19:22, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
in lieu of the backup partition.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
<https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001617.htm>
If you've got something "mission critical"
it might be best to avoid a cheap
drive. If you buy a cheap 32GB drive, perhaps it's a "failed" 64GB drive. Is the 32GB you've got left reliable?
On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
Yeah, "might".
Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not
directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
screw over his customers? "Not my problem!"
Do you take the same attitude with your *designs*: "*I* hae
been paid so any problems henceforth are the client's!"
Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")
It was my second post -- first response.
And, again, why would you ever think it's NOT a supplier's
problem to ensure he supplies a quality product?
No, it's not the school's property. These are just individuals (underprivileged youth who can't afford to BUY a computer;
does that mean they can be screwed over because they haven't
made any cash outlay?) being serviced by a non-profit.
Just as if they'd PURCHASED a machine, from a store, they would expect
to return to that store (for support) if they had a problem.
In the past, we have been too generous with our (volunteer) time
in trying to restore machines that had been grossly misused;
investing hours to recover files from horribly infected/corrupted
disks. (should we also have just said "not our problem"? How
does that serve those youth?)
Well sure. But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it
just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter"
branded ones)
For our market, it wouldn't matter. Do we get all holier-than-thou and
tell the (underprivileged youth) client that he's not taken good enough
care of his computer so we aren't going to help him?
What if he breaks the keyboard? Screen? Do we "charge" him
(underprivileged youth) for the repair? (he couldn't afford to BUY
the machine but he *can* afford to pay for its repair?)
On 11/30/2023 2:02 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:
OTOH, if the manufacturer is (likely) trying to chase the bigger
devices market, is he more inclined to let some devices slip
through that, strictly speaking, won't be quite as good as they
should?
On 30/11/2023 14:32, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 2:02 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:
OTOH, if the manufacturer is (likely) trying to chase the bigger
devices market, is he more inclined to let some devices slip
through that, strictly speaking, won't be quite as good as they
should?
I guess it depends on how much you value your reputation.
On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
Yeah, "might".
Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not >>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
screw over his customers? "Not my problem!"
How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange
of money for services rendered? It's not like "hey Don, I tried
installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be
fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for
refurbished machines.
Do you take the same attitude with your *designs*: "*I* hae
been paid so any problems henceforth are the client's!"
When the problem is "hey Dan, so I erased the EEPROM on your board, and
now it doesn't work!" ... yeah, Not My Problem. I didn't ship the
product with any interface to that 256-bit EEPROM with my super-secret-go-code ("12345" ;) ).
When the problem is "Hey Dan, so I hooked your thing up like the example said, but pin X2 isn't working", well either
1. I made an error in the design (or example) OR
2. The user messed up in a recoverable way ("Oh, you plugged the LED
into pin X1") OR
3. The user messed up in a partially-recoverable way ("Oh, you forgot
the resistor on the LED, it burned out. Get a new LED from the
bin") OR
3. The user messed up in a completely non-recoverable way ("You tried
to drive a motor directly from the I/O pins?? Board's dead.")
Wasn't til his first or second response that he said the "clients" are
kids (in which case ... "is it the school's property, or ... what?")
It was my second post -- first response.
And, again, why would you ever think it's NOT a supplier's
problem to ensure he supplies a quality product?
There's a VAST difference between someone designing / selling a product
that doesn't live up to the measure of "quality" and the idea
that a vendor is somehow "still responsible" when ownership changes
hands.
No, it's not the school's property. These are just individuals
(underprivileged youth who can't afford to BUY a computer;
does that mean they can be screwed over because they haven't
made any cash outlay?) being serviced by a non-profit.
AH HAH! A non-profit. That explains so much.
Just as if they'd PURCHASED a machine, from a store, they would expect
to return to that store (for support) if they had a problem.
Indeed, and that support tends to cost money.
In the past, we have been too generous with our (volunteer) time
in trying to restore machines that had been grossly misused;
investing hours to recover files from horribly infected/corrupted
disks. (should we also have just said "not our problem"? How
does that serve those youth?)
If these "underpriveleged kids" are involved with your nonprofit as some
kind of "care" program (either via school aftercare, or some other
community outreach thingy via the local community center, etc) ... then
they are not really "customers" are they; but rather "users" of
computers that your nonprofit loans out.
In which case, it sounds like you need better rules around what they can
do with your equipment, and what the consequences of asking for help
after they get viruses or fail at installing Linux, etc.
Well sure. But "destroyed via misuse" is a far sight different than "it >>> just fell apart" (which I've not seen -- even in my cheapo "Microcenter" >>> branded ones)
For our market, it wouldn't matter. Do we get all holier-than-thou and
tell the (underprivileged youth) client that he's not taken good enough
care of his computer so we aren't going to help him?
Well, if they broke the USB connector clear off their USB stick, there's
kind of "literally nothing you can do" at that point.
My other comment about "it fell apart" is more looking at those super
chintzy ones that sometimes live in boxes at convenience-store checkout counters. I'm pretty sure that bubble-packing on most products is
sturdier plastic than the housing on those things.
What if he breaks the keyboard? Screen? Do we "charge" him
(underprivileged youth) for the repair? (he couldn't afford to BUY
the machine but he *can* afford to pay for its repair?)
Yes. The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your
nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age). I've seen
some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of
chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc).
E.g., if an item goes on sale soon after you purchased it at
regular price, you could opt to return it, for a refund. And,
turn right around and repurchase it (a *fresh* unit) for the
sale price.
Some stores will credit you the current SALE price for such returns
in an obvious attempt to discourage this sort of practice.
On 11/30/2023 7:30 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. >>>>>>>
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to >>>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
Yeah, "might".
Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place
selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not >>>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
screw over his customers? "Not my problem!"
How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange
of money for services rendered? It's not like "hey Don, I tried
installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be
fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for
refurbished machines.
[Have you missed the point that our "customers" don't EXCHANGE MONEY
for the products? Will they exchange the same non-money for that
repair??
[...]
Yes. The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your
nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age). I've seen
some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of
homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of
chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc).
Remember, there is no monetary cost to the replacement
On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 7:30 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-30, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 4:03 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution. >>>>>>>>
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to >>>>>>>> upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
Yeah, "might".
Given the original post, I read it as (effectively) a PC repair place >>>>> selling refurbished machines. So if the buyer hoses their box, it's not >>>>> directly the seller's problem (beyond "yes, I'll take your money to
reset it to what we sold you as 'Factory Default(tm)'. ")
Ah, so, in your mindset, it's perfectly fine for a "supplier" to
screw over his customers? "Not my problem!"
How on earth is it "screwing over the customer" to require an exchange
of money for services rendered? It's not like "hey Don, I tried
installing Linux, and ruined my PC" is exactly something that should be
fixed under that "30 day warranty" your PC repair shop offers for
refurbished machines.
[Have you missed the point that our "customers" don't EXCHANGE MONEY
for the products? Will they exchange the same non-money for that
repair??
No. You seem to not understand the concept I'm stating though.
[...]
Yes. The nature of this "charge" depends on the nature of your
nonprofit and their relationship with it (and their age). I've seen
some aftercare type programs require good grades on a week's worth of
homework, or community outreach type programs require various forms of
chores (suited to the age of the child, ofc).
Remember, there is no monetary cost to the replacement
So what?
You're already "charged" them a couple of hours worth of menial labor
around your facility for the "gift" of the laptop in the first place.
Now they're getting "charged" for the "gift" of the repair work.
In article <uka99g$1di0j$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid says...
E.g., if an item goes on sale soon after you purchased it at
regular price, you could opt to return it, for a refund. And,
turn right around and repurchase it (a *fresh* unit) for the
sale price.
Some stores will credit you the current SALE price for such returns
in an obvious attempt to discourage this sort of practice.
I bought a weedeater on sale at Lowes and could not get it started. No Spatk. Took it back and got credit for it and had to buy a new one that
was not on sale. They should have just given me a replacement.
On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you,
do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it?
How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a
product that was so EASILY mistreated?
Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also,
refuse to do any further business with him?
When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product,
the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to
cut our ties to you...")
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
No, commodity flash drives don't tend to include "write once" features.
An ISO that they have to burn themselves is probably the most reliable
option (ref. standard Linux installation ISOs)
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to
fail.
That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people
break USB sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing
still in the machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few
reads if it is looked after.
"Looked after" is a problem. The beauty of the restore partition was that they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available. The thumb drive will
require them to keep it on hand... somewhere.
OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have
to bring the machine into the shop. On public transportation. Time that they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational).
I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate
their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup:
"I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?"
"OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you. What's
your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct
image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)? Oh, you don't have
that handy? Well, get back to us when you do..."
Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and kept
cool and dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and
nasty one croak on first use but it is rare.
Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!
Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE). So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge. Our GOAL isn't to make their life any harder. OTOH, *they* should assume responsibility
for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that
we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility.
We used to give out SFF desktop machines. But, that was limited to
kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine!
And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed,
the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move".
Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
AND if you think you can get another, for free!
On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:22:09 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me>:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
in lieu of the backup partition.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
I bought a cheap 1 TB USB stick, it lasted a few weeks.
Opening it up I found that the PCB had pads for input protection parts
none were fitted.
OTOH I have an old 'Duracell' 16 GB USB stick that is still fine after more than 20 years daily use.
As to write protectioon, no way, one can always do a dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/USBSTICK if one wants to.
Old SDcards had a mechanical switch, glue it? LOL
On 30/11/2023 4:48 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
[...]
Old SDcards had a mechanical switch, glue it? LOL
I think the "switch" in a SD card is just a piece of plastic and relies
on an actual switch in the socket that is activated by that piece of
plastic.
On 30/11/2023 4:48 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:22:09 -0700) it happened Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <uk8317$v4vl$1@dont-email.me>:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
I'd like, instead, to offer a thumb drive as installation media
in lieu of the backup partition.
- Can I make a thumb drive "read only" prior to distribution?
(so the little urchins don't wipe the installer image) I've
encountered drives that have *failed* in an R/O mode...
- How durable are *cheap* thumb drives? (can I get a handful
of *reliable* reads without worrying about a media error
or mechanical failure)
I bought a cheap 1 TB USB stick, it lasted a few weeks.
Opening it up I found that the PCB had pads for input protection parts
none were fitted.
OTOH I have an old 'Duracell' 16 GB USB stick that is still fine after more than 20 years daily use.
As to write protectioon, no way, one can always do a dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/USBSTICK if one wants to.
Old SDcards had a mechanical switch, glue it? LOL
I think the "switch" in a SD card is just a piece of plastic and relies
on an actual switch in the socket that is activated by that piece of
plastic. Since the SD card uses a fast serial protocol, and is quite
likely connected to a processor running software rather than digital >hardware, quite likely the write protect switch in the socket is at best >connected to a GPIO readable by the processor, but possibly connected to >nothing at all. Of course software can ignore it.
On 30/11/2023 12:15, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you,
do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it?
How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a
product that was so EASILY mistreated?
Depends on what you mean by easily.
Few devices with spinning rust in can
survive being dropped 3' onto a concrete floor, iPads and mobile phones are even more fragile. My old one had a bit missing from its "Indestructible" gorilla glass but still worked. My wife had someone drop an iPad destroying it
beyond economic repair.
Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also,
refuse to do any further business with him?
Potentially. We took to putting telltales into the shipping package after one damaged machine came back with clear evidence that it had stood upside down in
12" of salty water long enough for mild steel parts to go rusty. That pretty much clinched who was at fault (it was the sort of kit that is shipped in air floatation supports "this way up!").
Most spectacular one to repair we ever had was when they dropped one from the cargo bay door of a 747. It was never the same again.
When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product,
the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to
cut our ties to you...")
Absolutely. I had a strict policy of no support for existing work until my bills were paid.
Some of the large companies I worked for as an employee and
then later as a contractor would only pay their bigger bills when someone from
the bailiffs turned up to take the fax machine away. I knew their systems and MO so I made damn sure that I got paid on time and in full.
Pretty durable. It's the writes that wear out the flash / cause it to >>>> fail.
That or the mechanics. I have seen particularly cack handed people break USB
sticks off (more often TV tuners) leaving part of the thing still in the >>> machine. This can be terminal for the USB socket too.
If it writes and verifies OK then it should be good for quite a few reads if
it is looked after.
"Looked after" is a problem. The beauty of the restore partition was that >> they didn't have to *do* anything to have it available. The thumb drive will
require them to keep it on hand... somewhere.
Why not continue to use the partition method and keep this option as a backup.
I suspect the USB stick will get reused though. You could perhaps make all the
important files invisible to naive end users.
OTOH, if they misplace it, then THEY are inconvenienced as they will have
to bring the machine into the shop. On public transportation. Time that >> they could have used for some other purpose (essential or recreational).
I was hoping the drives could be made non-reusable (R/O) to eliminate
their being used/traded/sold for purposes other than as THEIR backup:
"I lost my thumb drive; can I have another?"
"OK, I'll put in a work order to have one made for you. What's
your machine's serial number (so we can look up the correct
image to place on the drive for YOUR machine)? Oh, you don't have >> that handy? Well, get back to us when you do..."
I can see it could be complex if the installed based is inhomogenous.
Longevity might be an issue longer term so not in the sun and kept cool and >>> dry would make sense. I have had the odd really cheap and nasty one croak on
first use but it is rare.
Leave it in a machine shop full of metal swarf and all bets are off!
Many of these kids don't have permanent places to *sleep* (let alone LIVE). >> So, everything that they have to keep track of is a challenge. Our GOAL
isn't to make their life any harder. OTOH, *they* should assume responsibility
for maintaining their improved quality of life and not just ASSUME that
we'll forever be accommodating their LACK of responsibility.
We used to give out SFF desktop machines. But, that was limited to
kids who had a place to SET UP such a machine!
And, if their living arrangements (inevitably "temporary") changed,
the machine could get lost (left behind) in the "move".
I find it hard to work out what to do for the best under these tricky constraints. I've done some voluntary work for organisations where everything had to be chained down to the desks to prevent snatch thieves but never anything quite so complicated.
Or, *sold*... even $10 is a win if the machine didn't cost you anything
AND if you think you can get another, for free!
I can see why you need to lock things down.
There are too many videos of how to format a write protected USB drive for you
to stand much chance of preventing it. Use cheap nasty small ones would be the
best idea that I can come up with. Ones that are too small to have any resale value.
Another simple option would be a write once CD and then you could include images for a few different machines on one disk. That way any copy of the right
CD will do to make a trashed machine work again.
Or even the micro CDs that come with drivers on.
On 12/1/2023 4:08 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
Another simple option would be a write once CD and then you could
include images for a few different machines on one disk. That way any
copy of the right CD will do to make a trashed machine work again.
Machines are now being offered without optical drives. I think the design rationale is that you can access RUNTIME media via the network connection
and boot media via USB devices.
This is especially true for smaller machines (which are a favorite of
the clients because they don't want to have to lug something with a
17" display)
[I have a pair of netbooks, here, that I keep because they *are*
so small. I can slip them BOTH in a desk drawer instead of having
to store them on a shelf in a laptop bag.]
Or even the micro CDs that come with drivers on.
I've been exploring UEFI BIOSes (for another project) with the goal
of making a machine unusable as a generic PC (prevent the OS from
being installed). If this bears fruit, I may be able to take some information from that and use it to cripple these machines to
protect the HPA and boot record (e.g., block writes to any of
those areas so an OS install throws an error)
On 01/12/2023 20:29, Don Y wrote:
On 12/1/2023 4:08 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
Another simple option would be a write once CD and then you could include >>> images for a few different machines on one disk. That way any copy of the >>> right CD will do to make a trashed machine work again.
Machines are now being offered without optical drives. I think the design >> rationale is that you can access RUNTIME media via the network connection
and boot media via USB devices.
This is especially true for smaller machines (which are a favorite of
the clients because they don't want to have to lug something with a
17" display)
If they have a full size sD slot then I favour Phils suggestion of a micro sD in an sD carrier write protected with a spec of araldite.
[I have a pair of netbooks, here, that I keep because they *are*
so small. I can slip them BOTH in a desk drawer instead of having
to store them on a shelf in a laptop bag.]
My favourite portable for travelling is an ASUS T1000 (not made of liquid metal) 11" diagonal screen. It's not fast, a bit long in the tooth now but lasts a long time and is very small. It even comes apart so that you can use the screen as a tablet.
Or even the micro CDs that come with drivers on.
I've been exploring UEFI BIOSes (for another project) with the goal
of making a machine unusable as a generic PC (prevent the OS from
being installed). If this bears fruit, I may be able to take some
information from that and use it to cripple these machines to
protect the HPA and boot record (e.g., block writes to any of
those areas so an OS install throws an error)
That sounds like hard work for little gain. BIOSes can also be overwritten.
If your laptops have full size SD card slots, you could use micro-SDs with adapters.
Lots of adapters have a "read-only" switch, and that plus a drop of epoxy seems like a reasonable solution.
On 30/11/2023 12:15, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2023 3:53 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 30/11/2023 00:24, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-11-29, Don Y wrote:
I've got a box that builds a "backup partition" on a machine
and then invokes it to install the OS/apps prior to distribution.
Some of the clients are hosing the backup partition by trying to
upgrade to Windows, etc.
Not your problem if they trash their box, is it?
It might be.
If your (paying) customer trashes the item he BOUGHT from you,
do you tell him to go suck eggs because he mistreated it?
How much responsibility can he heap on you for creating a
product that was so EASILY mistreated?
Depends on what you mean by easily. Few devices with spinning rust in
can survive being dropped 3' onto a concrete floor, iPads and mobile
phones are even more fragile. My old one had a bit missing from its >"Indestructible" gorilla glass but still worked. My wife had someone
drop an iPad destroying it beyond economic repair.
Even if you refuse to comp him for his losses, do you, also,
refuse to do any further business with him?
Potentially. We took to putting telltales into the shipping package
after one damaged machine came back with clear evidence that it had
stood upside down in 12" of salty water long enough for mild steel parts
to go rusty. That pretty much clinched who was at fault (it was the sort
of kit that is shipped in air floatation supports "this way up!").
Most spectacular one to repair we ever had was when they dropped one
from the cargo bay door of a 747. It was never the same again.
When your customer doesn't give you monies for your product,
the dynamics change! ("You've been a bad boy! We're going to
cut our ties to you...")
Absolutely. I had a strict policy of no support for existing work until
my bills were paid. Some of the large companies I worked for as an
employee and then later as a contractor would only pay their bigger
bills when someone from the bailiffs turned up to take the fax machine
away. I knew their systems and MO so I made damn sure that I got paid on
time and in full.
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