There's lots of press about the 2019 single-part 10BaseT1S & 1L standards.
It's designed to replace 4-20mA systems via existing single pair cable.

I'm wondering re: media converters to existing 100BaseT etc LANS. I've found zip
so far... Anyone seem same?



--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 11/24/2023 8:33 PM, David Lesher wrote:

There's lots of press about the 2019 single-part 10BaseT1S & 1L standards. It's designed to replace 4-20mA systems via existing single pair cable.

4-20ma loop is a point-to-point technology. Why would you expect to find 100BaseTX in that space?

I'm wondering re: media converters to existing 100BaseT etc LANS. I've found zip
so far... Anyone seem same?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

4-20ma loop is a point-to-point technology. Why would you
expect to find 100BaseTX in that space?

10BaseT1's driving justification was to replace 4-20 with
Ethernet, using the existing single twisted pair cable up
to ~1000ft. Obviously, the field end would need an A to D
converter. But hello, it's no longer the 1950's, and process
control ain't still vacuum tube Taylor PI analog controllers.

10Base1L {& S} is 100% Ethernet. But while I've read lots of
hype about it, I also did for other earth-shaking inventions
such as bubble memory, ATM, Token Ring, etc.

So what, if anything, is actually available for 10BaseT1L
{Or for that matter, 10BaseT1S..}?


--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/26/2023 9:38 AM, David Lesher wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

4-20ma loop is a point-to-point technology. Why would you
expect to find 100BaseTX in that space?

10BaseT1's driving justification was to replace 4-20 with
Ethernet, using the existing single twisted pair cable up
to ~1000ft. Obviously, the field end would need an A to D
converter. But hello, it's no longer the 1950's, and process
control ain't still vacuum tube Taylor PI analog controllers.

Yes, this is exactly the approach I've taken with my current
system: bring the processing to the field instead of the other
way around.

10Base1L {& S} is 100% Ethernet. But while I've read lots of
hype about it, I also did for other earth-shaking inventions
such as bubble memory, ATM, Token Ring, etc.

So what, if anything, is actually available for 10BaseT1L
{Or for that matter, 10BaseT1S..}?

But why would you imagine a media converter as the solution?
There's no existing use of ethernet to such field devices
that would benefit from being able to convert FROM 100BaseTX.

Why not a NIC of sorts -- USB-based-adapter?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 03:33:53 -0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

There's lots of press about the 2019 single-part 10BaseT1S & 1L standards. >It's designed to replace 4-20mA systems via existing single pair cable.

You could use the HART protocol to transmit digital data riding on
existing 4-20 mA analog current loop systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Addressable_Remote_Transducer_Protocol

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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

10Base1L {& S} is 100% Ethernet. But while I've read lots of
hype about it, I also did for other earth-shaking inventions
such as bubble memory, ATM, Token Ring, etc.

So what, if anything, is actually available for 10BaseT1L
{Or for that matter, 10BaseT1S..}?

But why would you imagine a media converter as the solution?

It is not, for me. I was explaining where 10BaseT1L came from.

I'll try again:

1) I need Ethernet, 10baseT is fast enough.
2) I must use an embedded 1 twisted pair cable that is in place.
3) The solution would be 10BaseT1L, if in fact it is anything but vaporware.

So:

Is 10BaseT1L real or just another nothingburger???

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 11/26/2023 2:47 PM, David Lesher wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

10Base1L {& S} is 100% Ethernet. But while I've read lots of
hype about it, I also did for other earth-shaking inventions
such as bubble memory, ATM, Token Ring, etc.

So what, if anything, is actually available for 10BaseT1L
{Or for that matter, 10BaseT1S..}?

But why would you imagine a media converter as the solution?

It is not, for me. I was explaining where 10BaseT1L came from.

I'll try again:

1) I need Ethernet, 10baseT is fast enough.
2) I must use an embedded 1 twisted pair cable that is in place.
3) The solution would be 10BaseT1L, if in fact it is anything but vaporware.

So:

Is 10BaseT1L real or just another nothingburger???

But that's not the question you asked! You were looking
for a media converter: something-base-something to 10BaseT1L.

"I'm wondering re: media converters to existing 100BaseT
etc LANS. I've found zip so far... Anyone seem same?"

My point was that this would likely not be an initial
offering for a new market -- because there aren't
something-base-something drops in use in that application
domain, now.

Instead, look for something with a *computer* (host) on
one side and a network interface (of your desired flavor)
on the other side.

As to how real? A quick search shows lots of hits for
devices targeting that market. But, (in my initial
search), more at the component level. E.g., TI, AD and
Microchip stand out.

This makes sense, historically, for embedded devices as
you likely are talking from "inside" one such device
to other I/Os THROUGH an i/f on that device.

Consider how ubiquitous PC CAN bus interfaces are NOT.
Yet, folks routinely develop with CAN...

You might check inventory (and lead time) for some of the
devices to see if it's all hype or if foundries are
actually committed to making silicon.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:38:27 -0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

4-20ma loop is a point-to-point technology. Why would you
expect to find 100BaseTX in that space?

10BaseT1's driving justification was to replace 4-20 with
Ethernet, using the existing single twisted pair cable up
to ~1000ft. Obviously, the field end would need an A to D
converter. But hello, it's no longer the 1950's, and process
control ain't still vacuum tube Taylor PI analog controllers.

10Base1L {& S} is 100% Ethernet. But while I've read lots of
hype about it, I also did for other earth-shaking inventions
such as bubble memory, ATM, Token Ring, etc.

So what, if anything, is actually available for 10BaseT1L
{Or for that matter, 10BaseT1S..}?

Well 10BASE-T1L and 10BASE-T1S still exist, and the latest version of
the standard was approved in 2019, so it's still active. Lots of
people make chips. Google on 10BASE-T1L to find many.

Here is the list of Ethernet physical media options:

.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_physical_layer>


Note that if twisted pair is not required, the fiber-optic options are
winning big in big factories because of their total immunity to EMI.

Joe Gwinn

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

On 11/26/2023 2:47 PM, David Lesher wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

10Base1L {& S} is 100% Ethernet. But while I've read lots of
hype about it, I also did for other earth-shaking inventions
such as bubble memory, ATM, Token Ring, etc.

So what, if anything, is actually available for 10BaseT1L
{Or for that matter, 10BaseT1S..}?

But why would you imagine a media converter as the solution?

It is not, for me. I was explaining where 10BaseT1L came from.

I'll try again:

1) I need Ethernet, 10baseT is fast enough.
2) I must use an embedded 1 twisted pair cable that is in place.
3) The solution would be 10BaseT1L, if in fact it is anything but vaporware. >>
So:

Is 10BaseT1L real or just another nothingburger???

But that's not the question you asked! You were looking
for a media converter: something-base-something to 10BaseT1L.

Sorry, I thought you meant 4-20mA converters.
Yes, I seek 10BaseT1L to 10/100/1000BaseT1L

My point was that this would likely not be an initial
offering for a new market -- because there aren't
something-base-something drops in use in that application
domain, now.

But given the extensive 100BaseT/1000BaseT deployment, a
converter to 10BaseT1 is a starting point towards wider
deployment.

Instead, look for something with a *computer* (host) on
one side and a network interface (of your desired flavor)
on the other side.

Won't fit this need. Must put printers in places with only
STP cable to them.

As to how real? A quick search shows lots of hits for
devices targeting that market. But, (in my initial
search), more at the component level. E.g., TI, AD and
Microchip stand out.

Yep. That was my starting point, not components but
deployable products.

You might check inventory (and lead time) for some of the
devices to see if it's all hype or if foundries are
actually committed to making silicon.

That's true.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/26/2023 4:11 PM, David Lesher wrote:

Is 10BaseT1L real or just another nothingburger???

But that's not the question you asked! You were looking
for a media converter: something-base-something to 10BaseT1L.

Sorry, I thought you meant 4-20mA converters.

I don't see a market, there. Consider: anyone who already has
a 4-20mA loop in place would have to put converters on both
ends of the (existing) wire -- one to convert the transducer
to digital and another to convert the digital back to 4-20mA
to i/f to <whatever> (PLC?).

There *might* be a market for devices that convert N (>> 1)
devices to digital for transport over the link and a
similar "demultiplexor" to convert them back to 4-20mA to
interface to existing i/f's.

But, the smarter move is to deploy this on newer installations
so there's no real economic incentive, going backwards.

Yes, I seek 10BaseT1L to 10/100/1000BaseT1L

My point was that this would likely not be an initial
offering for a new market -- because there aren't
something-base-something drops in use in that application
domain, now.

But given the extensive 100BaseT/1000BaseT deployment, a
converter to 10BaseT1 is a starting point towards wider
deployment.

I see a USB-based "adapter" to be more likely to find a
market. It lets it be deployed to PCs/MACs as well as
embedded systems ("If you can speak USB, you can get
this hardware/protocol capability for free!")

Instead, look for something with a *computer* (host) on
one side and a network interface (of your desired flavor)
on the other side.

Won't fit this need. Must put printers in places with only
STP cable to them.

Why wouldn't a USB dongle do the trick?

Why isn't 10/100/1000BaseT(X) useable (are there only two
EXISTING conductors in place that must be leveraged?)

As to how real? A quick search shows lots of hits for
devices targeting that market. But, (in my initial
search), more at the component level. E.g., TI, AD and
Microchip stand out.

Yep. That was my starting point, not components but
deployable products.

"PCI 10BaseT1L", "USB 10BaseT1L", etc. search terms?

You might check inventory (and lead time) for some of the
devices to see if it's all hype or if foundries are
actually committed to making silicon.

That's true.

The dilemma, there, is "lack of stock" can indicate NO
demand just as easily as HIGH demand (insufficient supply).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> writes:

Well 10BASE-T1L and 10BASE-T1S still exist, and the latest version of
the standard was approved in 2019, so it's still active. Lots of
people make chips. Google on 10BASE-T1L to find many.

Many What? I'm seeking things I can put in a NewEgg or Microcenter
or ? shopping cart.

Note that if twisted pair is not required, the fiber-optic
options are winning big in big factories because of their total
immunity to EMI.

That is quite true, but the value of the installed base STP in
plants is huge. Not everything needs GB/s.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> writes:

Well 10BASE-T1L and 10BASE-T1S still exist, and the latest version of
the standard was approved in 2019, so it's still active. Lots of
people make chips. Google on 10BASE-T1L to find many.

Many What? I'm seeking things I can put in a NewEgg or Microcenter
or ? shopping cart.

Note that if twisted pair is not required, the fiber-optic
options are winning big in big factories because of their total
immunity to EMI.

That is quite true, but the value of the installed base STP in
plants is huge. Not everything needs GB/s.

If it’s compatible with automotive Ethernet, you can get adapters from Amazon. Not super cheap.

We recently did that with a couple of lidars.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 01:08:35 -0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> writes:

Well 10BASE-T1L and 10BASE-T1S still exist, and the latest version of
the standard was approved in 2019, so it's still active. Lots of
people make chips. Google on 10BASE-T1L to find many.

Many What? I'm seeking things I can put in a NewEgg or Microcenter
or ? shopping cart.

The point is that if companies like Analog Devices are making the
chips, there necessarily are many other companies buying the chips and incorporation them into things you can buy. And the automotive market
is likely to be very large.

But you will need to do your own research to find candidate products
and determine which ones are suitable.

Note that if twisted pair is not required, the fiber-optic
options are winning big in big factories because of their total
immunity to EMI.

That is quite true, but the value of the installed base STP in
plants is huge. Not everything needs GB/s.

See the "Note that if twisted pair is not required" qualifier. There
are many folk who don't have that limitation, and knowing where the
market centroid is may be useful.

Joe Gwinn

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

I don't see a market, there. Consider: anyone who already has
a 4-20mA loop in place would have to put converters on both
ends of the (existing) wire -- one to convert the transducer
to digital and another to convert the digital back to 4-20mA
to i/f to <whatever> (PLC?).

Rather a 4-20ma converter at the sensor, an existing
STP of ~500M in length, and a new digital controller
replacing dozens of museum-quality PID controllers.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> writes:

If it's compatible with automotive Ethernet, you can get adapters from >Amazon. Not super cheap.

We recently did that with a couple of lidars.

I suspect those were 10BaseT1S, suitable up to 15M distances.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/27/2023 4:49 PM, David Lesher wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

I don't see a market, there. Consider: anyone who already has
a 4-20mA loop in place would have to put converters on both
ends of the (existing) wire -- one to convert the transducer
to digital and another to convert the digital back to 4-20mA
to i/f to <whatever> (PLC?).

Rather a 4-20ma converter at the sensor, an existing
STP of ~500M in length, and a new digital controller
replacing dozens of museum-quality PID controllers.

Assuming the industry being served allows replacing kit
without also revalidating the process.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)