New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm
The new steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance,
enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from seawater,
where a novel sustainable solution is still in the pipeline.

Use in spacecraft?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 9:24:08 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:

New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm
The new steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance, enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from seawater,
where a novel sustainable solution is still in the pipeline.

The article is not clear on how hydrogen would affect the metal. Yeah, chloride corrosion
is important, but when you're making hydrogen, doesn't that destabilize the oxide layers?

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On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 8:14:50 PM UTC+11, whit3rd wrote:

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 9:24:08 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:

New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm
The new steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance, enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from seawater,
where a novel sustainable solution is still in the pipeline.

The article is not clear on how hydrogen would affect the metal. Yeah, chloride corrosion
is important, but when you're making hydrogen, doesn't that destabilize the oxide layers?

Actually the artlcle makes it clear that it isn't hydrogen that is affecting the metal, but oxygen.

"Owing to the further oxidation of stable Cr2O3 into soluble Cr(VI) species, transpassive corrosion inevitably occurs in conventional stainless steel at ~1000 mV (saturated calomel electrode, SCE), which is below the potential required for water
oxidation at ~1600 mV."

My father ran into the same sort of problem when he was developing an electrolytic cell for turning brine into caustic soda (NaOH). and had to find a stainless steel that didn't corrode when used as the anode. Happily, he didn't have to invent a new one.

--
Bil Sloman, Sydney

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whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 9:24:08 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:

New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm The new
steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance,
enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from
sea water, where a novel sustainable solution is still in the
pipeline.

The article is not clear on how hydrogen would affect the metal. Yeah, chloride corrosion is important, but when you're making hydrogen,
doesn't that destabilize the oxide layers?

Hydrogen embrittlement does not affect all metallic materials
equally. The most vulnerable are high-strength steels, titanium
alloys and aluminum alloys.

Hydrogen embrittlement (HE), also known as hydrogen-assisted
cracking or hydrogen-induced cracking (HIC), is a reduction in the
ductility of a metal due to absorbed hydrogen. Hydrogen atoms are
small and can permeate solid metals. Once absorbed, hydrogen lowers
the stress required for cracks in the metal to initiate and
propagate, resulting in embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement occurs
most notably in steels, as well as in iron, nickel, titanium,
cobalt, and their alloys. Copper, aluminium, and stainless steels
are less susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement.

The essential facts about the nature of hydrogen embrittlement have
been known since the 19th century. Hydrogen embrittlement is
maximised at around room temperature in steels, and most metals are
relatively immune to hydrogen embrittlement at temperatures above
150 C. Hydrogen embrittlement requires the presence of both atomic ("diffusible") hydrogen and a mechanical stress to induce crack
growth, although that stress may be applied or residual. Hydrogen
embrittlement increases at lower strain rates. In general,
higher-strength materials are more susceptible to hydrogen
embrittlement.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hydrogen_embrittlement


--
MRM

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On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 12:54:59 AM UTC+11, Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:

whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 9:24:08 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:

New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm The new
steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance,
enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from
sea water, where a novel sustainable solution is still in the
pipeline.

The article is not clear on how hydrogen would affect the metal. Yeah, chloride corrosion is important, but when you're making hydrogen,
doesn't that destabilize the oxide layers?

The article makes it perfectly clear that hydrogen isn't the problem.

"Owing to the further oxidation of stable Cr2O3 into soluble Cr(VI) species, transpassive corrosion inevitably occurs in conventional stainless steel at ~1000 mV (saturated calomel electrode, SCE), which is below the potential required for water
oxidation at ~1600 mV."

So the passivating Cr2O3 layer is getting oxidised at the anode while the hydrogen is getting released at the cathode, where is doesn't seem to be doing any damage at all (or at least none that the researcher's noticed).

Hydrogen embrittlement does depend on the presence of atomic hydrogen, and electrolysis does produce molecular hydrogen. so you'd be a bit surprised if hydrogen embrittlement was a problem. It's not often that I have trawl up the stuff that I got to
learn when I was chemist, but the stuff you learn at your mother's knee (she was a chemist, as was my father) does tend to stick with you,

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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--
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--
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On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 05:24:00 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm
The new steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance,
enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from seawater,
where a novel sustainable solution is still in the pipeline.

Use in spacecraft?

Anti-covid stainless steel? Should we all walk around in suits of
armor?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 6:16:09 AM UTC-8, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 12:54:59 AM UTC+11, Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:

whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 9:24:08 PM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:

New ultra stainless steel for hydrogen production
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/11/231117102539.htm The new >> steel developed by the team exhibits high corrosion resistance,
enabling its potential application for green hydrogen production from >> sea water, where a novel sustainable solution is still in the
pipeline.

The article is not clear on how hydrogen would affect the metal. Yeah, chloride corrosion is important, but when you're making hydrogen, doesn't that destabilize the oxide layers?

The article makes it perfectly clear that hydrogen isn't the problem.
"Owing to the further oxidation of stable Cr2O3 into soluble Cr(VI) species, transpassive corrosion inevitably occurs in conventional stainless steel at ~1000 mV (saturated calomel electrode, SCE), which is below the potential required for water

oxidation at ~1600 mV."

So the passivating Cr2O3 layer is getting oxidised at the anode while the hydrogen is getting released at the cathode, where is doesn't seem to be doing any damage at all (or at least none that the researcher's noticed).

Hydrogen embrittlement does depend on the presence of atomic hydrogen, and electrolysis does produce molecular hydrogen. so you'd be a bit surprised if hydrogen embrittlement was a problem.

I'd worry about hydrogen embrittlement for any metal exposed to neutron flux for a few years (or to
monatomic hydrogen in an arc) but the exposure in an electrolytic cell to hydronium ions is what
the oxide layer endures; it isn't obvious that oxides are stable in that micro-environment.
The paper didn't say there were extended tests with hydrolytic cells, nor that the metal was a suitable cathode.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

Hydrogen embrittlement does depend on the presence of atomic hydrogen,
and electrolysis does produce molecular hydrogen. so you'd be a bit
surprised if hydrogen embrittlement was a problem.

Most hydrogen embrittlement occurs with diatomic hydrogen, but electrolysis
can produce atomic hydrogen. It converts to diatomic when it escapes from
the solution.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Electrolysis_of_water

Does zinc plating cause hydrogen embrittlement?

The potential for hydrogen embrittlement in electroplated screws and
bolts increases in direct proportion to the amount of carbon in the
steel and the hardness of the parts.

The potential for hydrogen embrittlement in electroplated screws and
bolts increases in direct proportion to the amount of carbon in the
steel and the hardness of the parts.

It is generally agreed that electroplated Grades 2 screws and bolts
have virtually no tendency toward hydrogen embrittlement because
they are made of low carbon steel and are not hardened at all.

Electroplated Guide 5 screws and bolts are very unlikely to have
hydrogen embrittlement problems. They are made of medium carbon
steel and are hardened to a maximum hardness of Rockwell C 34.
Personally, I have never heard of a confirmed case of hydrogen
embrittlement in this Grade 5 fasteners.

Zinc electroplated Grade 3 screws and bolts are prone to hydrogen embrittlement. They are made from medium carbon alloy steel and are
hardened up to Rockwell C 39.

Socket head cap screws, like Grade 3, are also made of medium carbon
alloy steel, but they are hardened up to Rockwell C 45. Out of all
of the types of standard screws and bolts, socket head cap screws
have the highest possibility of hydrogen embrittlement failures when
they are electroplated.

https://www.greensladeandcompany.com/wp-content/themes/greenslade-theme/pdf /articles/hydrogen-embrittlement/Hydrogen%20Embrittelment-%20SHCS.pdf

What is the physics of hydrogen embrittlement?

In metal exposed to hydrogeneous gases, the inducement of hydrogen embrittlement involves the following key steps:

(i) the physisorption of hydrogen molecules on the freshly created
surfaces;

(ii) the dissociation of the hydrogen molecule; and

(iii) the transport of hydrogen by random walk diffusion through the
lattice

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/physics-and-astronomy/hydrogen-embritt lement

Hydrogen Embrittlement

The mechanical properties of all metals are detrimentally affected
by hydrogen. The magnitude of the deterioration depends on the type
of metal, properties of the specific metal (e.g., strength), the
environment (e.g., hydrogen pressure and temperature), and the
mechanical loading. Exposure of metals to hydrogen can lead to
embrittlement, which can be manifested as significant losses in
tensile strength, ductility, and fracture toughness as well as
accelerated fatigue crack growth. This can result in failure of
pressure containing components.

Hydrogen Interactions with Metal Components

Hydrogen interacts with metal components in a five-step mechanism:

1. Hydrogen gas consists of diatomic hydrogen molecules (HH) that are in continuous motion Diatomic hydrogen (HH) undergoes adsorption at metal
surface
2. Diatomic hydrogen (HH) dissociates to monatomic hydrogen (H)
3. Monatomic hydrogen (H) absorbs into the metal
4. Monatomic hydrogen (H) diffuses through interstitial spacings in the
metal

https://h2tools.org/bestpractices/hydrogen-embrittlement


--
MRM

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On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 8:56:52 AM UTC+11, Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:

whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

Hydrogen embrittlement does depend on the presence of atomic hydrogen,
and electrolysis does produce molecular hydrogen. so you'd be a bit
surprised if hydrogen embrittlement was a problem.

Most hydrogen embrittlement occurs with diatomic hydrogen, but electrolysis can produce atomic hydrogen. It converts to diatomic when it escapes from the solution.

Snipped pretentious twaddle. It takes a lot of energy to split hydrogen molecules into hydrogen atoms.

Serous discussion of hydrogen embrittlement talks about metal hydrides - forming the metal hydrogen bond can provide some of the energy lost when you break the hydrogen-bond in molecular hydrogen.

--
Bil Sloman, Sydney

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