Actually debuted in 2021.off the road for a year.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the companys 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested thats equivalent to taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based cars
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:based cars off the road for a year.”
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the company’s 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested that’s equivalent to “taking approximately 250,000 fuel-
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 3:33:36?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:cars off the road for a year.
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the companys 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested thats equivalent to taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based
That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
The dose makes the poison.
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:55:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:based cars off the road for a year.”
On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 3:33:36?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the company’s 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested that’s equivalent to “taking approximately 250,000 fuel-
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
The dose makes the poison.
So too much air, water, light, or tater tots are "pollution."
We don't have an Académie française, so you can define things the way that terrifies you the most.
Actually debuted in 2021.cars off the road for a year.”
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the company’s 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested that’s equivalent to “taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:based cars off the road for a year.”
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the company’s 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested that’s equivalent to “taking approximately 250,000 fuel-
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
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fuel-efficient route
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most fuel-efficient route
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:32:47 -0800
Organization: Highland Tech
Reply-To: xx@yy.com
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On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 8:46:34?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:cars off the road for a year.
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:55:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 3:33:36?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the companys 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested thats equivalent to taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
The dose makes the poison.
So too much air, water, light, or tater tots are "pollution."
100% pure oxygen let premature babies breathe more easily, but destroyed their eyesight,
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/higher-oxygen-levels-improve-preterm-survival-increase-risk-eye-condition
We don't have an Acadmie franaise, so you can define things the way that terrifies you the most.
Nobody is terrified by rising CO2 levels. John Larkin lacks any sense of self-preservation and confuses rational precautions with blind panic - he can't do either.
Path: not-for-mail22f618bb3c62n@googlegroups.com>
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From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most fuel-efficient route
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 09:34:48 -0800
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On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 3:33:36?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:cars off the road for a year.
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the companys 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested thats equivalent to taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based
That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
Why is it that Larkin can't stand anyone having a conversation that he has not approved? Sometimes he is as bad as AA.
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the
same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the
same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.)
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the
same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.)
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
Path: not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 19:03:40 +0000
From: john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most fuel-efficient route
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 11:03:39 -0800
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From: Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most
fuel-efficient route
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100
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On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the
same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.)
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
Tantalums and polymer alums have shockingly low ESL too.
Here's some pics:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8habhglart7xjshsaj6jd/Polymer_TDR.jpg?rlkey=4xr7of23xrt7f5aixukj11a1u&dl=0
Looks like it doesn't much matter if I use 0306 or 0603 or 0805 or
1206 bypass caps of any value. May as well go big and get good low
frequency bypassing.
Traces and vias are going to dominate anyhow. A 10-mil drilled via is
going to be about a nH, depending on how far a plane is away, and a
cap usually has two.
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a
copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like, 0.2.)
Since I was planning to leave for grad school soon, I gave up trying to
save the company money, and just went back to my job.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:(My predecessor was one.)
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires, and when this used to be radio-amateur lore.
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as aTa drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money.
On the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypassroles.
Path: not-for-mailioaqli5g0s7ep46t2cpe9sgh01or5n4g4g@4ax.com>
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2023 03:13:59 +0000
From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most fuel-efficient route
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
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From: Mike Monett VE3BTI <spamme@not.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most fuel-efficient route
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On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the
same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.)
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
Tantalums and polymer alums have shockingly low ESL too.
Here's some pics:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8habhglart7xjshsaj6jd/Polymer_TDR.jpg?rlkey=4xr7of23xrt7f5aixukj11a1u&dl=0
Looks like it doesn't much matter if I use 0306 or 0603 or 0805 or
1206 bypass caps of any value. May as well go big and get good low
frequency bypassing.
Traces and vias are going to dominate anyhow. A 10-mil drilled via is
going to be about a nH, depending on how far a plane is away, and a
cap usually has two.
On 11/21/23 23:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the >>>> same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.)
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
Tantalums and polymer alums have shockingly low ESL too.
Here's some pics:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8habhglart7xjshsaj6jd/Polymer_TDR.jpg?rlkey=4xr7of23xrt7f5aixukj11a1u&dl=0
Looks like it doesn't much matter if I use 0306 or 0603 or 0805 or
1206 bypass caps of any value. May as well go big and get good low
frequency bypassing.
Traces and vias are going to dominate anyhow. A 10-mil drilled via is
going to be about a nH, depending on how far a plane is away, and a
cap usually has two.
For 1206 and smaller components with the same length/width, I measured
about 0.5nH. For a via all the way through a 1.6mm PCB, I got 250pH.
Those values are approximate. It's not easy and not really necessary
to be very accurate here. The PCB layout usually dominates anyway.
Jeroen Belleman
independent on size
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a
copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like,
0.2.)
Since I was planning to leave for grad school soon, I gave up trying to
save the company money, and just went back to my job.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
It's not so much the self inductance of the cap, but what it's connected to.
I had a prototype precision pll that quit working around 5 MHz. On checking I found 5V p-p on the +5V supply to the pll. The trace inductance was resonating with the bypass cap.
Changing the value of the cap would only move the resonance to a different frequency. I forget exactly how I cured the problem (this was ~40 years ago), but eventually I found a solution by trial and error.
Changing the value of the cap would only move the resonance to a
different frequency. I forget exactly how I cured the problem (this was
~40 years ago), but eventually I found a solution by trial and error.
Paralleling bypass caps doesn Tt fix that either. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 23:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
For bypassing microwave transistors, a few 0402s in parallel, going to a small topside ground pour with lots of vias is Good Medicine.
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the >>>> same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.)
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
It's been folklore for a good 40 years that I know about.
When I was a stripling of about 22, I had this gig making satellite
radio equipment, part of a big push involving nearly the whole RF
department. We were building the first civilian direct broadcast
satellite system, which was cool. I was entirely unqualified when I
started, which is always the best sort of gig for anyone with a bit of
moxie.
In those hallowed halls of Microtel Pacific Research in Burnaby BC (the >design bureau for the local incarnation of GTE Lenkurt), Enlightened
Opinion strongly favoured bypassing with a 100 nF stacked film cap in >parallel with 1 nF monolithic ceramic. (These were the through-hole
days, you understand.)
I thought that was a crock, so I put one of those very nice point one >microfarad gizmos on a network analyzer, and measured its impedance. As
I recall, it looked exactly like a perfect capacitor with a snice mall
ESR, until going very slightly inductive (well under an ohm, iirc) out
near 100 MHz. I sent around a memo about this, because all that cargo
cult design was costing money and board space.
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a
copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like, >0.2.)
Actually debuted in 2021.off the road for a year.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the companys 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested thats equivalent to taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based cars
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:based cars off the road for a year.”
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the company’s 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested that’s equivalent to “taking approximately 250,000 fuel-
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/Suppose I don't want to penny-pinch, but select the fastest, or the
most scenic path, or one that passes a really good restaurant. Does
the app include those preferences?
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:57 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they >>>> look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the >>>> same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values >>>> makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires, >>> and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.) >>>
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
It's been folklore for a good 40 years that I know about.Well, some people haven't got word, even though they are not yet 40
years old.
What has changed in the last 40 years is that multilayer PCBs are
cheap now. The best high-speed bypass cap is a power plane a few mils
from a ground plane. Once you have a reasonable amount of plane
capacitance, you can splash any sort of caps around the plane and it
just mnakes things better. Vias up to parts dominate now.
When I was a stripling of about 22, I had this gig making satellite
radio equipment, part of a big push involving nearly the whole RF >department. We were building the first civilian direct broadcast
satellite system, which was cool. I was entirely unqualified when I >started, which is always the best sort of gig for anyone with a bit of >moxie.
In those hallowed halls of Microtel Pacific Research in Burnaby BC (the >design bureau for the local incarnation of GTE Lenkurt), Enlightened >Opinion strongly favoured bypassing with a 100 nF stacked film cap in >parallel with 1 nF monolithic ceramic. (These were the through-hole
days, you understand.)
I thought that was a crock, so I put one of those very nice point one >microfarad gizmos on a network analyzer, and measured its impedance. As
I recall, it looked exactly like a perfect capacitor with a snice mall >ESR, until going very slightly inductive (well under an ohm, iirc) out >near 100 MHz. I sent around a memo about this, because all that cargo
cult design was costing money and board space.
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a >copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,Common sense is always rare.
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like, >0.2.)
All caps go inductive at high frequency, regardless of the nameplate C value. What varies with value is the series resonance impedance dip,
which I usually want to be as low as possible. So use 10 uF bypasses.
We're doing a new tiny embedded delay generator, and certain ignorant
youth are repeating urban legends about bypassing, passed on from
their grandmothers I assume. Power supply ripple makes jitter, so I
want big bypass caps. We have nine jitter-critical timing ramps a few
inches from five switching supplies.
Incidentally, TPS562208 (costs 22 cents) makes a nice +5 to -8
inverting switcher, but TI's sim model is broken so their version of
Spice won't model it. I suspect hard-ground internal nodes.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:57 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they >>>>> look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the >>>>> same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values >>>>> makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.) >>>>
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
It's been folklore for a good 40 years that I know about.
Well, some people haven't got word, even though they are not yet 40
years old.
What has changed in the last 40 years is that multilayer PCBs are
cheap now. The best high-speed bypass cap is a power plane a few mils
from a ground plane. Once you have a reasonable amount of plane
capacitance, you can splash any sort of caps around the plane and it
just mnakes things better. Vias up to parts dominate now.
Hard to avoid nowadays. BITD we'd just say, "Use a linear supply."When I was a stripling of about 22, I had this gig making satellite
radio equipment, part of a big push involving nearly the whole RF
department. We were building the first civilian direct broadcast
satellite system, which was cool. I was entirely unqualified when I
started, which is always the best sort of gig for anyone with a bit of
moxie.
In those hallowed halls of Microtel Pacific Research in Burnaby BC (the
design bureau for the local incarnation of GTE Lenkurt), Enlightened
Opinion strongly favoured bypassing with a 100 nF stacked film cap in
parallel with 1 nF monolithic ceramic. (These were the through-hole
days, you understand.)
I thought that was a crock, so I put one of those very nice point one
microfarad gizmos on a network analyzer, and measured its impedance. As
I recall, it looked exactly like a perfect capacitor with a snice mall
ESR, until going very slightly inductive (well under an ohm, iirc) out
near 100 MHz. I sent around a memo about this, because all that cargo
cult design was costing money and board space.
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a
copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like,
0.2.)
Common sense is always rare.
All caps go inductive at high frequency, regardless of the nameplate C
value. What varies with value is the series resonance impedance dip,
which I usually want to be as low as possible. So use 10 uF bypasses.
We're doing a new tiny embedded delay generator, and certain ignorant
youth are repeating urban legends about bypassing, passed on from
their grandmothers I assume. Power supply ripple makes jitter, so I
want big bypass caps. We have nine jitter-critical timing ramps a few
inches from five switching supplies.
Incidentally, TPS562208 (costs 22 cents) makes a nice +5 to -8
inverting switcher, but TI's sim model is broken so their version of
Spice won't model it. I suspect hard-ground internal nodes.
On 2023-11-22 11:08, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:57 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they >>>>>> look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the >>>>>> same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values >>>>>> makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires, >>>>> and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.) >>>>>
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
It's been folklore for a good 40 years that I know about.
Well, some people haven't got word, even though they are not yet 40
years old.
What has changed in the last 40 years is that multilayer PCBs are
cheap now. The best high-speed bypass cap is a power plane a few mils
from a ground plane. Once you have a reasonable amount of plane
capacitance, you can splash any sort of caps around the plane and it
just mnakes things better. Vias up to parts dominate now.
Yes, assuming that your only decoupling issues are power planes. Those
of us who are not in that blessed state have to do jazz still. ;)
Hard to avoid nowadays. BITD we'd just say, "Use a linear supply."When I was a stripling of about 22, I had this gig making satellite
radio equipment, part of a big push involving nearly the whole RF
department. We were building the first civilian direct broadcast
satellite system, which was cool. I was entirely unqualified when I
started, which is always the best sort of gig for anyone with a bit of
moxie.
In those hallowed halls of Microtel Pacific Research in Burnaby BC (the
design bureau for the local incarnation of GTE Lenkurt), Enlightened
Opinion strongly favoured bypassing with a 100 nF stacked film cap in
parallel with 1 nF monolithic ceramic. (These were the through-hole
days, you understand.)
I thought that was a crock, so I put one of those very nice point one
microfarad gizmos on a network analyzer, and measured its impedance. As >>> I recall, it looked exactly like a perfect capacitor with a snice mall
ESR, until going very slightly inductive (well under an ohm, iirc) out
near 100 MHz. I sent around a memo about this, because all that cargo
cult design was costing money and board space.
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a >>> copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like, >>> 0.2.)
Common sense is always rare.
All caps go inductive at high frequency, regardless of the nameplate C
value. What varies with value is the series resonance impedance dip,
which I usually want to be as low as possible. So use 10 uF bypasses.
We're doing a new tiny embedded delay generator, and certain ignorant
youth are repeating urban legends about bypassing, passed on from
their grandmothers I assume. Power supply ripple makes jitter, so I
want big bypass caps. We have nine jitter-critical timing ramps a few
inches from five switching supplies.
Incidentally, TPS562208 (costs 22 cents) makes a nice +5 to -8
inverting switcher, but TI's sim model is broken so their version of
Spice won't model it. I suspect hard-ground internal nodes.
For a regulator,
Nice ~= good, small, cheap, and dumb. ;)
What are the edges like?
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 2:05:55?PM UTC-5, john larkin wrote:cars off the road for a year.
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the companys 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested thats equivalent to taking approximately 250,000 fuel-based
Suppose I don't want to penny-pinch, but select the fastest, or the
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
most scenic path, or one that passes a really good restaurant. Does
the app include those preferences?
It's google maps, so it tells where everything is, and they allow you to drag the trace of their route through any place you want, so the answer is yes.
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 11:09:12?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:roughly threshold voltage jitter, rms/S.R. That dumb ESL in the bypass puts a fundamental lower limit on S.R.
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:57 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:Well, some people haven't got word, even though they are not yet 40
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
[...]
I think I'll TDR some 0603 caps of different values and see how they
look. Conventional wisdom is that all 0603 ceramic caps have about the >> >>>> same ESL, which I suspect is right. So bypassing with stepped values
makes no sense. What's your opinion?
I remember an amplifier designed by my predecessor where he had
religiously bypassed every stage with three parallel capacitors.
The two smaller values were SMDs and the larger one was a thru-hole
Ta drop. Quite over the top, as I later found. This was in 1988 or
so. Probably a left-over from the time when all components had wires,
and when this used to be radio-amateur lore. (My predecessor was one.) >> >>>
I was surprised when I measured the ESL of smallish radial-wired
aluminium electrolytic capacitors: Only about 5nH, the same as a
Ta drop cap with the same wire spacing and indeed what you'd
expect from a simple wire jumper of the same geometry. ESR was
similar too. I concluded that Ta caps were a waste of money. On
the other hand, axial-wired capacitors were much worse, with ESL
values over 100nH. I also found that both Al and Ta electrolytics
with values below a few uF were pretty much useless, with ESR
values above 10 Ohms, not worth the trouble in bypass roles.
Jeroen Belleman
I think that using stepped cap values is folklore now, with SMT parts.
It's been folklore for a good 40 years that I know about.
years old.
What has changed in the last 40 years is that multilayer PCBs are
cheap now. The best high-speed bypass cap is a power plane a few mils
from a ground plane. Once you have a reasonable amount of plane
capacitance, you can splash any sort of caps around the plane and it
just mnakes things better. Vias up to parts dominate now.
Common sense is always rare.
When I was a stripling of about 22, I had this gig making satellite
radio equipment, part of a big push involving nearly the whole RF
department. We were building the first civilian direct broadcast
satellite system, which was cool. I was entirely unqualified when I
started, which is always the best sort of gig for anyone with a bit of
moxie.
In those hallowed halls of Microtel Pacific Research in Burnaby BC (the
design bureau for the local incarnation of GTE Lenkurt), Enlightened
Opinion strongly favoured bypassing with a 100 nF stacked film cap in
parallel with 1 nF monolithic ceramic. (These were the through-hole
days, you understand.)
I thought that was a crock, so I put one of those very nice point one
microfarad gizmos on a network analyzer, and measured its impedance. As
I recall, it looked exactly like a perfect capacitor with a snice mall
ESR, until going very slightly inductive (well under an ohm, iirc) out
near 100 MHz. I sent around a memo about this, because all that cargo
cult design was costing money and board space.
The next day, somebody from another department stopped by my desk with a
copy of the memo. He pointed to that +0.xxx ohm reactance, and said,
"You see? It goes inductive. That means it'll ring." (The Q was, like,
0.2.)
All caps go inductive at high frequency, regardless of the nameplate C
value. What varies with value is the series resonance impedance dip,
which I usually want to be as low as possible. So use 10 uF bypasses.
We're doing a new tiny embedded delay generator, and certain ignorant
youth are repeating urban legends about bypassing, passed on from
their grandmothers I assume. Power supply ripple makes jitter, so I
want big bypass caps. We have nine jitter-critical timing ramps a few
inches from five switching supplies.
Not sure those caps filter power supply ripple all that much. The most significant effect is they allow maximal slew rate of your output triggers and whatnot's, and that is what reduces jitter: slewing pass a threshold in minimal time. jitter, rms is
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 22:34:59 -0800 (PST), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:fuel-based cars off the road for a year.”
On Monday, November 20, 2023 at 8:46:34?AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:55:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 3:33:36?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:41:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually debuted in 2021.
While the feature only provides estimates, it is possible to import details about the type of engine your car has in order to obtain more accurate results.
The tool debuted in 2021, and the company’s 2023 Environmental Report has estimated that it had prevented over 1.3 million tons of pollution up to the end of 2022. The report suggested that’s equivalent to “taking approximately 250,000
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/google-maps-fuel-efficient-routes-traffic/
That's weird, calling CO2 "pollution." CO2 keeps us alive.
The dose makes the poison.
So too much air, water, light, or tater tots are "pollution."
100% pure oxygen let premature babies breathe more easily, but destroyed their eyesight,
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/higher-oxygen-levels-improve-preterm-survival-increase-risk-eye-condition
We don't have an Académie française, so you can define things the way that terrifies you the most.
Nobody is terrified by rising CO2 levels. John Larkin lacks any sense of self-preservation and confuses rational precautions with blind panic - he can't do either.
Consider this:
You could exit your lame insult fest; you are only damaging yourself.
For a few hundred dollars, you could get a decent oscilloscope, a DVM, a power supply, and some parts kits. Maybe some cheap or free eval boards.
You could, with a bit of imagination, do something interesting, keep your brain active, and post something on-topic. You might even have friendly interactions with people.
You claim expertise in magnetics, and high-speed design, so play with them.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 11:27:58 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 11:09:12?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:57 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
The original concept had the critical timing path pass through an
FPGA, but I vetoed that. FPGAs are slow and noisy.
ECL is the way to go for low jitter; it's not very sensitive to power supply or temperature, but it's not practical on a small product.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 11:27:58 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 11:09:12?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:57 -0500, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-11-21 17:35, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 22:13:32 +0100, Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/21/23 20:03, john larkin wrote:
I have switched supplies +5V and -8V, and quiet supplies/planes +5Q and -5Q. +5V becomes +5Q through a 47 uH inductor, and we make -5Q through a linear regulator from -8V. More capacitance on the Q supplies helps, hence lots of 10uF bypasses.
If a couple of cmos chips change prop delay 1 ns per volt, that's 1 ps per millivolt. Our basic insertion delay from trig to output is 20 ns, so a little power supply ripple can make a lot of jitter.
The original concept had the critical timing path pass through an FPGA, but I vetoed that. FPGAs are slow and noisy.
ECL is the way to go for low jitter; it's not very sensitive to power supply or temperature, but it's not practical on a small product.
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From: john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Google Maps now offers the option of selecting the most fuel-efficient route
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2023 11:05:38 -0800
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