On 10/28/23 23:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Sometimes, in automatic setups, it's essential. There have been
times I wished for a four-port VNA, so that I could measure all 16
responses from S11 to S44 without juggling cables. A manufacturer
of large numbers of four-port gadgets --which I wasn't-- would certainly
need such a system. I just moved cables around in those few cases
I had to deal with it, but it certainly was a nuisance and a cause of
wear and tear on the hardware.
For occasional lab use, just S21 and S11 are good enough, I agree.
I don't think the mini-VNAs get anywhere near the performance of the
HP boat anchors, yet.
Jeroen Belleman
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:10:57 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the >>block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Personally, working in time domain, I want Spice models, not s-params.
On 10/28/23 23:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Sometimes, in automatic setups, it's essential. There have been
times I wished for a four-port VNA, so that I could measure all 16
responses from S11 to S44 without juggling cables. A manufacturer
of large numbers of four-port gadgets --which I wasn't-- would certainly
need such a system. I just moved cables around in those few cases
I had to deal with it, but it certainly was a nuisance and a cause of
wear and tear on the hardware.
For occasional lab use, just S21 and S11 are good enough, I agree.
I don't think the mini-VNAs get anywhere near the performance of the
HP boat anchors, yet.
Jeroen Belleman
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:50:39 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:10:57 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Assuming I understand you correctly, how are you going to do that when there's no incident energy provided at port 2?
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:10:57 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Personally, working in time domain, I want Spice models, not s-params.
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:50:39 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:10:57 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those >>>last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own >>>niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the >>>block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a >>>kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Assuming I understand you correctly, how are you going to do that when >there's no incident energy provided at port 2?
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
On 29/10/2023 8:36 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 10/28/23 23:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Sometimes, in automatic setups, it's essential. There have been
times I wished for a four-port VNA, so that I could measure all 16
responses from S11 to S44 without juggling cables. A manufacturer
of large numbers of four-port gadgets --which I wasn't-- would certainly
need such a system. I just moved cables around in those few cases
I had to deal with it, but it certainly was a nuisance and a cause of
wear and tear on the hardware.
For occasional lab use, just S21 and S11 are good enough, I agree.
I don't think the mini-VNAs get anywhere near the performance of the
HP boat anchors, yet.
Jeroen Belleman
Also if you are doing proper calibration then you need to measure the
raw values of all 4 parameters to do the correction, regardless of
whether you want the corrected values or not.
[...]
On 2023-10-28 20:50, John Larkin wrote:There are others, like
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:10:57 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend
in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up
to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the
block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90%
of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Personally, working in time domain, I want Spice models, not s-params.
De-embedding is the main problem--the behavior of the test fixture has a
huge influence on the measurement. At 5 GHz, a capacitance of 0.5 pF
has a reactance of 64 ohms, which is easily enough to make nonsense of
your measurements.
That's mainly what all those expensive doohickeys are for.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
(Who hasn't used a VNA in anger for 40 years.)
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 08:05:13 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-10-28 20:50, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:10:57 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend >>>> in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up >>>> to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the >>>> block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90% >>>> of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Personally, working in time domain, I want Spice models, not s-params.
De-embedding is the main problem--the behavior of the test fixture has a
huge influence on the measurement. At 5 GHz, a capacitance of 0.5 pF
has a reactance of 64 ohms, which is easily enough to make nonsense of
your measurements.
That's mainly what all those expensive doohickeys are for.
There are others, like
https://nanorfe.com/vna6000.html
https://nanorfe.com/nanovna-v2.html
They recommend flipping the ports over for S22
On 10/29/23 12:08, Chris Jones wrote:
On 29/10/2023 8:36 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 10/28/23 23:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen, Ladies, Transexuals and Australians,
Do we *really* need S22 and S12 any more? I know they're nice to have
- and indeed essential for some designers - but increasingly the trend >>>> in 'mini-VNAs seems to be to dispense with those measurements and
focus exclusively on S11 and S21. And if we're honest about it, those
last two S parameters are where 90% of the action is.
Now don't get me wrong! I have a lab grade HP VNA that probably cost
the thick end of 100k quid back in the 90s and it still works great up >>>> to 6Ghz. HOWEVER, it's HUGE, MASSIVELY HEAVY and highly complex to
use. The new generation of pocketable mini-VNAs are carving their own
niche in the market and must have the big dinosaur manufacturers
rattled (and if not, they jolly well should be). These new kids on the >>>> block are intuitive to use, extremely cheap to buy and perform the 90% >>>> of 'the stuff you need' to measure, perhaps not to lab grade, but
'good enough' for initial development. And they don't take half a
kilowatt to run, either.
So, my question is - are S22 and S12 dead?
Example:
https://tinyurl.com/5c5dcvbv
Sometimes, in automatic setups, it's essential. There have been
times I wished for a four-port VNA, so that I could measure all 16
responses from S11 to S44 without juggling cables. A manufacturer
of large numbers of four-port gadgets --which I wasn't-- would certainly >>> need such a system. I just moved cables around in those few cases
I had to deal with it, but it certainly was a nuisance and a cause of
wear and tear on the hardware.
For occasional lab use, just S21 and S11 are good enough, I agree.
I don't think the mini-VNAs get anywhere near the performance of the
HP boat anchors, yet.
Jeroen Belleman
Also if you are doing proper calibration then you need to measure the
raw values of all 4 parameters to do the correction, regardless of
whether you want the corrected values or not.
[...]
Do you mean to say that forward and reverse parameters are measured simultaneously rather than sequentially?
Jeroen Belleman
Can't you flip the gadget over? I mean, if you can measure S11 you
should be able to measure S22.
Assuming I understand you correctly, how are you going to do that when
there's no incident energy provided at port 2?
Terminate the other port.
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