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  • Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images

    From john larkin@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Mon Oct 16 15:14:48 2023
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:49:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

    Why disturbing?

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 16 23:49:17 2023
    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From a a@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Oct 16 22:37:27 2023
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    The arsehole john larkin <jl@650pot.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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    Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
    Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:14:48 -0700
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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Mon Oct 16 23:24:24 2023
    On 2023-10-16, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    What's wrong with the diffraction spikes from the JWST?

    Also, there should be 8, as I recall (although the horizontal ones are
    pretty dim, compared to the vertical and "X" shaped ones).

    --
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  • From a a@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Tue Oct 17 02:14:10 2023
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    The idiot Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
    Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:24:24 -0000 (UTC)
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  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 16 19:55:20 2023
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:24:24 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-16, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    What's wrong with the diffraction spikes from the JWST?

    Also, there should be 8, as I recall (although the horizontal ones are
    pretty dim, compared to the vertical and "X" shaped ones).

    Aren't the mirrors hexagons?

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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Tue Oct 17 08:56:38 2023
    On 16/10/2023 22:49, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.

    It is a characteristic feature of the hexagonal aperture symmetry and
    there is a minor cross line resulting from the support structure too. So
    it is actually a six pointed star with two short spikes across. ie

    \ /
    \ /
    \ | /
    ______\|/_______
    /|\
    / | \
    / \
    / \

    Point spread function of any aperture is the Fourier transform of its
    shape filed with 1's. It is a consequence of using a mirror of finite
    extent. You can't get rid of the diffraction pattern without inventing measurements for the spatial frequencies that you don't have (or
    severely compromising resolution).

    It is actually quite a difficult inverse problem to remove diffraction artefacts and the raw images are much better for scientific purposes. On
    a good day with a trailing wind something like Maximum Entropy will get
    you 3x superresolution on the brightest point sources and some noise suppression. But it is also inclined to add ripples into any nebulae
    since the positivity contraint doesn't work well there like it does
    against the blackness of space.

    Some images are much tougher than others to deconvolve reliably.

    I don't find them offensive YMMV. It *is* what the telescope actually saw!

    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

    Whilst deconvolution will do it so that you get a prettier coffee book
    picture and depending on the method used you end up with either
    resolution that depends on local signal to noise and/or missing faint
    detail in the regions where the brighter spikes used to be.

    JWST PSF stands out because of the unusual symmetry of its mirror.

    The six pointed star is also a feature of some ground based telescopes
    with round mirrors and a 3 way centre diagonal support. They have less
    total power in each of the diffraction spikes as a result. The first
    biggish scope I used was of this sort. i didn't much like it back then preferring the more normal eight pointed stars of other big scopes. ie.

    |
    |
    \ | /
    ______\|/______
    /|\
    / | \
    |
    |

    Some even have weird curved supports that behave a bit like an apodising filter.

    Most big scopes these days have brutal straight 4 way central mirror
    support (or none if they are catadioptric and have a front optical
    surface with a silvered mirror spot on axis.

    ASCII art Best viewed with a fixed width font.

    --
    Martin Brown

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Oct 17 10:43:58 2023
    On 10/17/23 00:14, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:49:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

    Why disturbing?


    I find them objectionable because they often obscure (oblude?)
    nearby detail. These days, it should be relatively easy to
    Fourier-transform the image, apply some window function to remove
    the hexagon pattern of the mirrors and the shadows of the secondary
    mirror supports, and then transform it back again.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Tue Oct 17 10:14:11 2023
    On 17/10/2023 09:43, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 10/17/23 00:14, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:49:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

    Why disturbing?


    I find them objectionable because they often obscure (oblude?)
    nearby detail. These days, it should be relatively easy to
    Fourier-transform the image, apply some window function to remove
    the hexagon pattern of the mirrors and the shadows of the secondary
    mirror supports, and then transform it back again.

    That wouldn't work without losing a hell of a lot of resolution though.
    It is the *missing* spatial frequency data that is damaging the image
    quality. The de-facto window function already applied by the physics of
    a finite aperture is the autocorrelation of the aperture shape.

    Because of the various straight sides it isn't that far off being a
    triangle with a peak in the middle and linear decline to zero at the
    diameter of the mirror along the direction you choose.

    You can't filter away the fact that you don't have any data for some
    missing spatial frequencies that you were not able to measure because of
    the finite extent of the mirror and its supports.

    You have to invent them to make the diffraction spikes go away. That can
    be done but it isn't unambiguous or simple and introduces new artefacts
    that can get in the way of interpretation.

    Linear methods like Weiner filters exist that work fairly well but the non-linear ones which are more computationally expensive do better
    because they naturally include the heuristic knowledge that the sky is everywhere positive brightness and can use the empty sky being black to
    rule out impossible scenarios from their reconstructed image. This isn't
    a too bad introduction to what is possible at about the right level
    (with some algebra and more importantly sample pictures).

    https://www2.ph.ed.ac.uk/~wjh/teaching/dia/documents/reconstruction.pdf

    Any fast linear method invariably produces negative ringing around the
    point sources which is way more distracting than diffraction spikes.

    First you have to decide what question you want to answer and then do
    the image processing that best facilitates solving your problem. It is invariably better to start from the raw data for astrophysics.

    --
    Martin Brown

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Oct 17 10:48:19 2023
    On 2023-10-17, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:24:24 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net>
    wrote:

    On 2023-10-16, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    What's wrong with the diffraction spikes from the JWST?

    Also, there should be 8, as I recall (although the horizontal ones are >>pretty dim, compared to the vertical and "X" shaped ones).

    Aren't the mirrors hexagons?

    Yes, the primary mirrors are hexagons, but the standoffs for the
    secondary mirror also generates a 6-pointed diffraction spike. The "X"
    portion just overlaps.

    Here's a diagram of the elements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope#/media/File:JWST_diffraction_spikes.svg


    --
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  • From a a@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Tue Oct 17 13:55:08 2023
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    The idiot Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

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    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
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  • From a a@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Oct 17 13:55:14 2023
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    The idiot Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
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  • From a a@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Oct 17 13:55:20 2023
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    The idiot John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
    Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:55:20 -0700
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  • From a a@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Tue Oct 17 13:55:26 2023
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    The arsehole Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
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  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Tue Oct 17 06:57:00 2023
    On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 10:43:58 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 10/17/23 00:14, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:49:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

    Why disturbing?


    I find them objectionable because they often obscure (oblude?)
    nearby detail. These days, it should be relatively easy to
    Fourier-transform the image, apply some window function to remove
    the hexagon pattern of the mirrors and the shadows of the secondary
    mirror supports, and then transform it back again.

    Jeroen Belleman

    NASA is basically a money-burning PR operation, and probably elects to
    show star patterns in pretty public pictures.

    And if the bright lines saturate the detector, whatever is under them
    can't be recovered.

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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Oct 17 15:35:16 2023
    On 17/10/2023 14:57, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 10:43:58 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 10/17/23 00:14, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 23:49:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    The six-pointed stars we see in all JWST images are rather
    disturbing, yet, it should be easy enough to filter them out.
    Why don't they?

    Jeroen Belleman

    Why disturbing?


    I find them objectionable because they often obscure (oblude?)
    nearby detail. These days, it should be relatively easy to
    Fourier-transform the image, apply some window function to remove
    the hexagon pattern of the mirrors and the shadows of the secondary
    mirror supports, and then transform it back again.

    Jeroen Belleman

    NASA is basically a money-burning PR operation, and probably elects to
    show star patterns in pretty public pictures.

    It is the other way around. The star pattern is a diffraction effect
    from the physical shape of the aperture which was made up of hexagons so
    that it could fold up into a tight cylindrical space for launch.

    It was news to me that JWST was named after a controversial NASA manager
    - I had initially thought it had been named after one of my fellow
    countrymen - the Victoria amateur astronomer Rev Thomas Webb whose name
    lives on in a society for the study of deep sky objects. He wrote one of
    the first major work on such objects (amateur and professional astronomy
    was quite blurred back then).

    https://www.webbdeepsky.com/wbg/twwebb.html

    Messier's name also lives on with his catalogue of 106+/-4 catalogue of nuisance fuzzy objects when comet hunting. He tended to be drunk when
    making observational notes so some of his objects are disputed. ISTR 102
    of them are now fairly certain and the others are later additions.

    And if the bright lines saturate the detector, whatever is under them
    can't be recovered.

    It is true that whatever was under a diffraction spike is difficult to
    recover.

    But you can't blame NASA for that - the laws of physics play an
    important part in determining what a telescope can actually see.

    There are stars that are too bright for the JWST to observe.

    If anything ever saturates a detector it is actually the unresolved
    point object that is at the centre of the diffraction pattern. When that happens you get readout bleed along a column of cells.

    You sometimes see it in the realtime preview of a phone being used as a
    camera when there are bright lights in a dim scene. The wells in the
    tiny chips are not very deep so very easily saturate.

    --
    Martin Brown

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  • From a a@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Oct 17 20:25:38 2023
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    The arsehole John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

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  • From a a@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Oct 17 20:25:45 2023
    XPost: free.spam

    The arsehole Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

    --
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    Path: not-for-mail
    From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
    Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
    Subject: Re: Six-pointed stars in JWST images
    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 15:35:16 +0100
    Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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