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  • RJ45 (8P8C) alternatives IN USE for ethernet

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 14 19:44:40 2023
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
    primarily industrial applications.

    Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
    (i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
    interact so "plan ahead")?

    For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
    (assuming careful layout).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sun Oct 15 08:11:12 2023
    On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 19:44:40 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
    primarily industrial applications.

    Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
    (i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
    interact so "plan ahead")?

    For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
    (assuming careful layout).

    Pity that the "universal" bus isn't ethernet using the USBC connector.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Oct 15 14:54:57 2023
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.

    But then there's always fiber / DAC / WiFi as well, if you choose to use
    them as L1 interconnection media.


    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Sun Oct 15 11:24:52 2023
    On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.

    Yes. I see a few "oddball" alternatives (MD8 & 12 and ND9) but only in
    special instances... nothing that seems to approach a new sort of
    "standard".

    I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
    might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
    eye towards "other" interconnects.

    E.g., if you have a USB interface, you have to make a decision as
    to which USB connector best fits your targeted applications.
    For the most part, they are interchangeable.

    Likewise, for legacy 422/232/423/485/etc. connections.

    For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
    use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

    (There are some MII connectors but only for external PHYs)

    But then there's always fiber / DAC / WiFi as well, if you choose to use
    them as L1 interconnection media.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Oct 15 21:49:00 2023
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.
    [...]
    I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
    might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
    eye towards "other" interconnects.

    Not for 802.3-compliant ethernet networking there isn't.


    E.g., if you have a USB interface, you have to make a decision as
    to which USB connector best fits your targeted applications.
    For the most part, they are interchangeable.

    USB was designed that way though, unlike 802.3 networks over copper.


    For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
    use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

    If you're limiting yourself to 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet, since the
    physical medium is part of the spec. As I mentioned, there's a handful
    of other options if you really want to use them.

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Sun Oct 15 16:08:37 2023
    On 10/15/2023 2:49 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep.
    [...]
    I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
    might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
    eye towards "other" interconnects.

    Not for 802.3-compliant ethernet networking there isn't.

    ND-9s are now finding a place in industrial networking -- at
    up to CAT6 and PoE++ applications.

    While I don't need that speed or power level, PHYSICAL compatibility
    (for the cost of an additional set of pads) has some value. Esp if
    I can just interface to such a device without having to redesign
    a board and/or packaging.

    E.g., if you have a USB interface, you have to make a decision as
    to which USB connector best fits your targeted applications.
    For the most part, they are interchangeable.

    USB was designed that way though, unlike 802.3 networks over copper.

    People (industries) have a habit of revising connectors to accommodate
    their own particular needs -- without wanting to reinvent an entire
    standard.

    Cisco routed power on "unused" pins of CAT5 cables for THEIR version
    of PoE. Big enough market and name and it becomes a /de facto/
    standard.

    "RS232" is available on all sorts of connectors -- with varying degrees
    of compliance to The Standard (*pick* a standard). 10P10C, 8P8C, TRS,
    TRRS, DB9, DB25, RJ11, etc.

    A Sun SCSI cable is more like a fire hose. Apple uses a *square*
    connector. You can even find DB25's as "accepted terminations".

    Video cables come in all different flavors as befitting the
    mechanical constraints of one or both ends of the cable (I
    have some that are VHDCI -- but a "regular" VGA cable thereafter).

    The trick is to anticipate how connector use may evolve.

    For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
    use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

    If you're limiting yourself to 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet, since the
    physical medium is part of the spec. As I mentioned, there's a handful
    of other options if you really want to use them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Arie de Muijnck@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Oct 16 16:50:00 2023
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
    primarily industrial applications.

    Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
    (i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
    interact so "plan ahead")?

    For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
    (assuming careful layout).


    Search google images "IEC 61076-3-124".

    Arie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Oct 16 20:22:08 2023
    On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 4:08:48 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/15/2023 2:49 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/15/2023 7:54 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-15, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    If you're talking about "standard" 10/100/1000BASE-T over copper, yep. >> [...]
    I'm looking to see if there are differential stuffing options that
    might make sense for "spare" network interfaces on boards with an
    eye towards "other" interconnects.

    The trick is to anticipate how connector use may evolve.

    For ethernet connections, there only seem to be two in widespread
    use: 8P8Cs and punchdown blocks.

    If you're limiting yourself to 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet, since the physical medium is part of the spec. As I mentioned, there's a handful
    of other options if you really want to use them.

    No mention yet of SFP? That'll open up lots of possibilities, optical and wired (fiber channel)
    and it's likely flexible enough to suit the whatever-comes-next.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Arie de Muijnck on Tue Oct 17 18:35:18 2023
    On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    I've encountered ND9's and M8's/M12's on some kit but
    primarily industrial applications.

    Any other alternatives that are in "widespread" use
    (i.e., an application domain with which I might have to
    interact so "plan ahead")?

    For daughtercard connections, I imagine anything will do
    (assuming careful layout).

    Search google images "IEC 61076-3-124".

    Yes, but, as I said above (wrt the ND9, M8/12) they only
    seem to see use in industrial applications (which is the
    market my colleague -- who suggested them to me -- serves).

    I was wondering (worrying?) that there may be some
    set of more ubiquitous kit that used an alternative
    (in much the same way that we see lots of "RS232"
    alternatives addressing portions of markets)

    It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
    haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
    "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Oct 18 12:17:46 2023
    On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
    haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
    "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

    As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
    would just be... a new bunch of problems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 18 13:50:30 2023
    On 10/18/2023 12:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
    haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
    "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

    As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
    connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
    would just be... a new bunch of problems.

    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    One can buy "hooded" (and equivalent) connector shells.
    But, often they are poorly made (even made of HARD plastic
    so you can't deform them to release the latch).

    As most casual users don't have a box of spare cables on hand
    (of the appropriate length), a broken connector means a trip to
    the store to be operational, again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Oct 18 22:13:20 2023
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 12:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
    haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
    "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

    As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
    connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
    would just be... a new bunch of problems.

    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
    it for them.



    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Wed Oct 18 16:44:08 2023
    On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 12:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
    haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
    "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

    As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacement
    connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different connector
    would just be... a new bunch of problems.

    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
    it for them.

    Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.

    Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
    audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
    cables do.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Oct 19 00:45:59 2023
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    [...]
    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
    it for them.

    Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.

    Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
    audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
    cables do.

    Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
    /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
    drawer full already.

    I've still got the same network cables as I used in college, albeit cut
    in half because I didn't need to run 50 foot of cable around the
    perimeter of the (dorm) room :)

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Wed Oct 18 18:34:54 2023
    On 10/18/2023 5:45 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    [...]
    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix
    it for them.

    Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.

    Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
    audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
    cables do.

    Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
    /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so, drawer full already.

    And every THING needs the cable that came with it!
    How often do you buy something and get a "spare cable"
    in the package?

    I've still got the same network cables as I used in college, albeit cut
    in half because I didn't need to run 50 foot of cable around the
    perimeter of the (dorm) room :)

    Orange hose when I was in college...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Thu Oct 19 06:11:59 2023
    On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2023 12:17:46 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in <bbee0cf8-7548-4de4-99d0-f37e9ebabc7cn@googlegroups.com>:

    On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/16/2023 7:50 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
    On 2023-10-15 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    It seems like nothing is coming close to replacing (or,
    acting as an alternative) RJ45's for ethernet applications.

    It's interesting that the flimsy connectors in widespread use
    haven't found a more robust replacement, esp as more and more
    "casual" users have (bad?) experiences with them!

    As a semi-casual user, I've had bad experiences, then got a bag of replacem= >ent
    connectors and a crimp tool... that fixed all my problems. A different co= >nnector
    would just be... a new bunch of problems.

    Same here, replaced 2 RJ45 connectors last few days, always takes time to get the colors aligned...
    I also modified a RJ45 PCB female one for POE, it had a few hundred Ohm resistor between the power lines....
    Was easy to take apart, cut the tracks to the resistors, make an extra hole and solder 2 power wires.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Oct 19 10:00:32 2023
    On 2023-10-19, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 5:45 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    [...]
    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix >>>> it for them.

    Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.

    Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
    audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
    cables do.

    Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
    /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
    drawer full already.

    And every THING needs the cable that came with it!
    How often do you buy something and get a "spare cable"
    in the package?

    I don't need my new phone's USB-C charger (and corresponding cable), the
    old one still works fine (so, yay, spare). Likewise, my wireless game controllers that charge over mini- or micro-B -- all of them came with a
    USB cable, but they don't all need to charge simultaneously. Or the
    printer, where I replaced an old one (so already had the right USB A/B
    printer cable -- TBH, I was surprised to find a cable in the box).


    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Thu Oct 19 04:50:24 2023
    On 10/19/2023 3:00 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-19, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 5:45 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/18/2023 3:13 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2023-10-18, Don Y wrote:
    [...]
    Most folks aren't going to make (or repair) their own cables.

    So then they buy a new one, or call their friend / relative who can fix >>>>> it for them.

    Which is how my supply of spares has been exhausted.

    Note that no one ever calls looking for a spare printer cable,
    audio cable, USB cable, etc. as they don't fail like network
    cables do.

    Or people just have a glut of USB cables these days, because
    /everything/ comes with it's new (USB) charger & charging cable ... so,
    drawer full already.

    And every THING needs the cable that came with it!
    How often do you buy something and get a "spare cable"
    in the package?

    I don't need my new phone's USB-C charger (and corresponding cable), the
    old one still works fine (so, yay, spare). Likewise, my wireless game controllers that charge over mini- or micro-B -- all of them came with a
    USB cable, but they don't all need to charge simultaneously. Or the
    printer, where I replaced an old one (so already had the right USB A/B printer cable -- TBH, I was surprised to find a cable in the box).

    I have each chargeable USB device with its own cable so they can all
    sit on chargers until needed (phones, BT speakers, tablets, headphones, earpieces, eReaders, etc.). I've found labeling the cables is the
    easiest way for me to keep track of when one "goes missing".

    Three of my scanners have a "USB option" (in addition to being network
    or SCSI accessible) so each is cabled to a host -- for the settings that
    aren't adjustable over the network.

    Each external (USB) disk drive is cabled to a host so all I have
    to do is apply power to access its contents. (I've had to purchase
    several miniUSB cables as some of the drives have misplaced theirs).
    I have SATA docks on several machines, each connected to a nearby host.
    Each UPS is tethered to its corresponding host along with the network.

    My monitors are (USB) cabled to their hosts to make use of the
    hubs/card readers embedded in them.

    I have "extension" cables (MaleA to FemaleA) on any devices where the
    "real" connector is hard to access (e.g., the rear USB connections on
    kit that's not located *on* my workbench which likely has OTHER kit
    piled atop it making moving it -- to access the rear panel -- difficult).

    I don't like having to "dig out" cables (or any other kit, for that
    matter -- external disks, mice, monitors, digitizers, motion controllers,
    etc.) so leave them "stored" where they will actually be used.
    (How does storing them save any space or make their use any easier?)

    My "spare cables" are LONG video cables, LONG network cables, LONG
    SCSI cables, LONG "coax" cables and LONG serial/parallel cables. In
    a pinch, one will suffice -- until I can make arrangements to get others.
    It also discourages "borrowers" as no one likes to have a *pile* of wire
    lying around!

    SHORT cables leave less slack around here so THEY see use instead of
    longer ones (e.g., there's ~700 ft of CAT5e in my tiny little office...
    in ~60 modest length pieces!)

    [I currently need 8 2m network cables so I'll go chase them down in
    the next week or so]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)