1. Forum
  2. Usenet
  3. SCI.ELECTRONICS.DESIGN

  • NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to o

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 12 05:05:58 2023
    NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to origin of life
    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/nasa-finds-water-and-organics-in-asteroid-sample-possible-clues-to-origin-of-life/

    Not even from main container? pollution from landing on earth ? Or was the whole thing sealed?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Wed Oct 11 22:26:06 2023
    On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 4:06:06 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to origin of life
    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/nasa-finds-water-and-organics-in-asteroid-sample-possible-clues-to-origin-of-life/

    Not even from main container? pollution from landing on earth ? Or was the whole thing sealed?

    Do give them some credit. The sample obviously had to be sealed against exposure to terrestrial conditions if it was going to tell them anything interesting.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Oct 12 09:12:42 2023
    On 12/10/2023 06:05, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to origin of life
    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/nasa-finds-water-and-organics-in-asteroid-sample-possible-clues-to-origin-of-life/

    Not even from main container? pollution from landing on earth ? Or was the whole thing sealed?

    Hermetically sealed sample and opened either in vacuum or a truly inert atmosphere probably argon. They might well open it in a vacuum first
    since argon isotope ratios are one way to date rocks.

    Everything that is there came off the asteroid. It is surprisingly high
    in carbon and largely undifferentiated (much like the black sooty
    meteorite that hit the UK during lockdown and caused such a stir).

    I expect they will have a date of last melting fairly soon once they
    have isolated a few zircon crystals to use ion probe mass spec on.

    More on how it is done here:

    https://www.gsoc.org/news/2020/12/07/zircon

    --
    Martin Brown

    PS my ENglish spell checker wants to turn you into Panatella
    (a new development in TB 115.3.1)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Oct 12 10:32:26 2023
    On 12/10/2023 09:12, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 12/10/2023 06:05, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to origin of life
    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/nasa-finds-water-and-organics-in-asteroid-sample-possible-clues-to-origin-of-life/

    Not even from main container? pollution from landing on earth ? Or was the whole thing sealed?

    Hermetically sealed sample and opened either in vacuum or a truly inert atmosphere probably argon. They might well open it in a vacuum first
    since argon isotope ratios are one way to date rocks.

    I wonder what the pressure was on the surface of that asteroid, and
    whether or not it will be possible to create a vacuum of a similar level
    here. Mind you, sooner or later the vacuum will have to go and sample "contaminated" with an inert gas. I'm not sure whether it will be argon
    or one of the other inert gases.

    Everything that is there came off the asteroid. It is surprisingly high
    in carbon and largely undifferentiated (much like the black sooty
    meteorite that hit the UK during lockdown and caused such a stir).

    I expect they will have a date of last melting fairly soon once they
    have isolated a few zircon crystals to use ion probe mass spec on.

    More on how it is done here:

    https://www.gsoc.org/news/2020/12/07/zircon

    Does that apply to extraterrestrial dating?

    --

    Jeff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Thu Oct 12 09:53:03 2023
    On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:12:42 +0100) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ug89pr$2cqar$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/10/2023 06:05, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to origin of life
    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/nasa-finds-water-and-organics-in-asteroid-sample-possible-clues-to-origin-of-life/

    Not even from main container? pollution from landing on earth ? Or was the whole thing sealed?

    Hermetically sealed sample and opened either in vacuum or a truly inert >atmosphere probably argon. They might well open it in a vacuum first
    since argon isotope ratios are one way to date rocks.

    Everything that is there came off the asteroid. It is surprisingly high
    in carbon and largely undifferentiated (much like the black sooty
    meteorite that hit the UK during lockdown and caused such a stir).

    I expect they will have a date of last melting fairly soon once they
    have isolated a few zircon crystals to use ion probe mass spec on.

    More on how it is done here:

    https://www.gsoc.org/news/2020/12/07/zircon


    Interesting, it says:
    Specifically, on the Jack Hills specimens, over 4 billion years in age,
    the researchers discovered that the δ18O values indicate that liquid oceans may have existed a mere 200 million years after the assembly of the planet!

    That is against the asteroids brought water theory?

    I indeed do think oceans formed in an other way, just condensed atmosphere as earth cooled down,
    oil condensed the same way, that is why oil is found everywhere.




    Martin Brown

    PS my ENglish spell checker wants to turn you into Panatella
    (a new development in TB 115.3.1)

    As Willi Shakepierce already stated: "What's in a name"

    I sometimes use ispell in Linux, have selected US spelling on this Raspberry Pi.
    Using 3 different keyboards now on the table, plus a musical keyboard, easy to make typos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Thu Oct 12 11:14:14 2023
    On 12/10/2023 10:32, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 12/10/2023 09:12, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 12/10/2023 06:05, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to
    origin of life

    https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/10/nasa-finds-water-and-organics-in-asteroid-sample-possible-clues-to-origin-of-life/

    Not even from main container? pollution from landing on earth ? Or
    was the whole thing sealed?

    Hermetically sealed sample and opened either in vacuum or a truly inert
    atmosphere probably argon. They might well open it in a vacuum first
    since argon isotope ratios are one way to date rocks.

    I wonder what the pressure was on the surface of that asteroid, and
    whether or not it will be possible to create a vacuum of a similar level here. Mind you, sooner or later the vacuum will have to go and sample "contaminated" with an inert gas. I'm not sure whether it will be argon
    or one of the other inert gases.

    Mainly they will do it because glove boxes are incredibly difficult to
    use with a huge differential pressure. Argon is probably good enough -
    dry nitrogen might be adequate. Sample handling isn't really my thing. I
    have seen it done though and visited a fair number of instruments that
    worked on dating the moon rocks.

    Everything that is there came off the asteroid. It is surprisingly high
    in carbon and largely undifferentiated (much like the black sooty
    meteorite that hit the UK during lockdown and caused such a stir).

    I expect they will have a date of last melting fairly soon once they
    have isolated a few zircon crystals to use ion probe mass spec on.

    More on how it is done here:

    https://www.gsoc.org/news/2020/12/07/zircon

    Does that apply to extraterrestrial dating?

    Yes. It is absolutely cast iron. The only thing is that you get the date
    of last melting which might be more recent for a rock that has undergone metamorphosis on Earth (but zircons are really tough).

    Its very cunning in that you ping the rock with a laser and look at the
    isotope ratios (or dissolve it and go hot filament if you have a few ug
    to spare - that method gets ratios to 6 sig fig on a good day).

    The modern ion probes can work on truly tiny samples. Zircons are really
    handy minerals for dating since they form relatively easily and are
    practically indestructible once formed with such a high melting point.
    Stuff trapped in bubbles in a zirconium crystal has been there and
    remained isolated since it formed (and so is highly sought after).

    There is a bit more here which I think is accurate about the oldest ones
    known on Earth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadean_zircon

    Cubic zirconia makes a nice nearly convincing synthetic diamond too.

    Neodymium / Samarium is the other favoured method for old rocks.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarium–neodymium_dating

    The other thing I know that geochemists get all excited about in
    meteorites is the so called Europium anomaly where the amount present in
    some samples is hugely depleted (implying differentiation in a planetary environment followed by being smashed to bits again).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europium_anomaly

    I used to work on the software for doing this once long ago.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Oct 12 13:59:28 2023
    XPost: free.spam

    The arsehole Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

    --
    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    Path: not-for-mail
    From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
    Subject: NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible clues to origin of life
    Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:05:58 GMT
    Message-ID: <ug7urm$4uon$1@solani.org>
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain; ISO-8859-15
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Injection-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:05:58 -0000 (UTC)
    Injection-Info: solani.org;
    logging-data="162583"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@news.solani.org" User-Agent: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (Linux-5.15.32-v7l+)
    Cancel-Lock: sha1:kBt8M0mzx7sevh2xVxIsDk8DYUA=
    X-Newsreader-location: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (c) 'LIGHTSPEED' off line news reader for the Linux platform
    NewsFleX homepage: http://www.panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/ and ftp download ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/system/news/readers/
    X-User-ID: eJwNycEBwCAIA8CVikIC4wDK/iPY+55tCJoKg9rYnE22dfbUWZOmiUbWdZ/C+dSFoUE1+WfV0m6/BUoFw5kPd4MV2Q==
    X-Received-Bytes: 1398

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Oct 12 13:59:34 2023
    XPost: free.spam

    The idiot Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

    --
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    Path: not-for-mail
    From: Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
    Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
    Subject: Re: NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible
    clues to origin of life
    Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:12:42 +0100
    Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
    Lines: 27
    Message-ID: <ug89pr$2cqar$2@dont-email.me>
    References: <ug7urm$4uon$1@solani.org>
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Injection-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:12:43 -0000 (UTC)
    Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5ce15ffd4f3bb62a25f2614937fab35e";
    logging-data="2517339"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19xV3MhmV10R2c1QT413Nv6hWp2/0Muz2Vd6EPIa+FLkg=="
    User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
    Cancel-Lock: sha1:aVZSYCLq0OsaSLuzDfhZg9do0YU=
    Content-Language: en-GB
    In-Reply-To: <ug7urm$4uon$1@solani.org>
    X-Received-Bytes: 2202

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Thu Oct 12 13:59:40 2023
    XPost: free.spam

    The idiot Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

    --
    Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Path: not-for-mail
    From: Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
    Subject: Re: NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible
    clues to origin of life
    Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:32:26 +0100
    Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
    Lines: 34
    Message-ID: <ug8efb$2dsbn$1@dont-email.me>
    References: <ug7urm$4uon$1@solani.org> <ug89pr$2cqar$2@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Injection-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:32:27 -0000 (UTC)
    Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="64cb074e1cec22e264462579b67eb473";
    logging-data="2552183"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+esN3mUCRO86L2Mt6jyCQUpPYtBGXS3xU="
    User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
    Thunderbird/102.15.1
    Cancel-Lock: sha1:JoCXwD3Gl3BOB9muLPBSfSeUOkI=
    Content-Language: en-GB
    In-Reply-To: <ug89pr$2cqar$2@dont-email.me>
    X-Received-Bytes: 2559

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Oct 12 13:59:53 2023
    XPost: free.spam

    The arsehole Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

    --
    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    Path: not-for-mail
    From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
    Subject: Re: NASA finds water and organics in asteroid sample -- possible
    clues to origin of life
    Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:53:03 GMT
    Message-ID: <ug8fm0$55gd$1@solani.org>
    References: <ug7urm$4uon$1@solani.org> <ug89pr$2cqar$2@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain; ISO-8859-15
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
    Injection-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:53:04 -0000 (UTC)
    Injection-Info: solani.org;
    logging-data="169485"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@news.solani.org" User-Agent: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (Linux-5.15.32-v7l+)
    Cancel-Lock: sha1:rB52fz1ga31PMbL5UWnJbhOJ4rI=
    X-User-ID: eJwNxMcBwDAIA8CVQhFlHEeY/UdI7nGwkGB6IByL9V5C2nzg3LuYMQ/qLJ7I0+892jwkhRW2o3kFyT8vRX1uqRYE
    X-Newsreader-location: NewsFleX-1.5.7.5 (c) 'LIGHTSPEED' off line news reader for the Linux platform
    NewsFleX homepage: http://www.panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/ and ftp download ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/system/news/readers/
    X-Received-Bytes: 3249

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)