I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
Joe Gwinn
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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From: Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
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Subject: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400
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I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
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On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com>
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On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:to keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something criticalReminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:to keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something criticalReminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can appropriately evaluate your comment.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds'
within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:to keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something critical
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds'
within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can appropriately evaluate your comment.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:to keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something critical
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds'
within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can appropriately evaluate your comment.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguycritical to keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
<soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights >> > lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to >> > rubble.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' >> > within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
parks only.Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can appropriately evaluate your comment.I believe there is ONE thing we call all agree on for once and that is the legislation needs to be introduced in all countries where EVs have been sold which requires the drivers of them to confine themselves to the ground floor of multi-story car
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:combustion engineered vehicle which can be a whole lot heavier than regular cars.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> >> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
Ask any anti-EV half-wit.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
What makes you think that? Gasoline- and diesel-engined vehicles have fuel tanks which are no less vulnerable to a fire in the environment.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
EVs are 30% heavier than internal combustion engined vehicles of the same size, which is to say that they aren't going to collapse any parking garage, which have to be designed so that they won't collapse if the are entirely filled with big internal
God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
Or didn't share Cursitor Doom's bizarre delusions about electric vehicles.
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
They don't put the fire out, but they do stop it spreading - evaporating water soaks up. a lot of heat
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
In Cursitor Doom's ever-so-expert opinion.
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:combustion engineered vehicle which can be a whole lot heavier than regular cars.
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
Ask any anti-EV half-wit.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
What makes you think that? Gasoline- and diesel-engined vehicles have fuel tanks which are no less vulnerable to a fire in the environment.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
EVs are 30% heavier than internal combustion engined vehicles of the same size, which is to say that they aren't going to collapse any parking garage, which have to be designed so that they won't collapse if the are entirely filled with big internal
God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
Or didn't share Cursitor Doom's bizarre delusions about electric vehicles.
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
They don't put the fire out, but they do stop it spreading - evaporating water soaks up. a lot of heat
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
In Cursitor Doom's ever-so-expert opinion.
Sorry, Bill, but I believe you are wrong (as usual in these matters).
This has ALL the hallmarks of an EV fire.
They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Flyguy <soar2morrow@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:33:35 +0100
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), FlyguyReminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
<soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor
Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn
<joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers'
flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park
itself turned to rubble. When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow!
And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other
cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in smoke. And of course,
the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes
structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God help
anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the
task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle.
An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire
necessary. The heat must have melted something critical to
keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the
exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can
appropriately evaluate your comment.
I believe there is ONE thing we call all agree on for once and that
is the legislation needs to be introduced in all countries where EVs
have been sold which requires the drivers of them to confine
themselves to the ground floor of multi-story car parks only.
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:01:23?AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:combustion engineered vehicle which can be a whole lot heavier than regular cars.
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
Ask any anti-EV half-wit.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
What makes you think that? Gasoline- and diesel-engined vehicles have fuel tanks which are no less vulnerable to a fire in the environment.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
EVs are 30% heavier than internal combustion engined vehicles of the same size, which is to say that they aren't going to collapse any parking garage, which have to be designed so that they won't collapse if the are entirely filled with big internal
burn too. Electric vehicle batteries do have a failure mode that can make it appear that they burst into flame spontaneously, but any kind of battery monitoring system can give you early warning of that in plenty of time to let you discharge the battery
God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
Or didn't share Cursitor Doom's bizarre delusions about electric vehicles. >> >
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
They don't put the fire out, but they do stop it spreading - evaporating water soaks up. a lot of heat
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
In Cursitor Doom's ever-so-expert opinion.
Sorry, Bill, but I believe you are wrong (as usual in these matters).
You and Flyguy do like to believe that I am wrong and you are right. It's much more comforting than the other choice.
You do like to believe in fatuous nonsense, so a lot people do think that you are wrong. They are probably right.
This has ALL the hallmarks of an EV fire.
Which you can't actually list. EV's burn because they use an organic electroyte inside the cells, and if the cells got hot enough they burst and the electrolyte catches on fire just like petrol and diesel fuel. The lithium and graphite in the electrodes
They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......
You get the usual mark - "f" for fatuous.
Do try to learn a bit more about the subjects you pontificate on. You did try to become more expert about global warming, but you are dim twit, so it didn't help.
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From: Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:24:19 +0100
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...At least we're now starting to see eye witness
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass
communication.
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:45:22 +0100
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On 12/10/2023 12:33, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), FlyguyReminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
<soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor
Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn
<joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers'
flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park
itself turned to rubble. When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow!
And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other
cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in smoke. And of course,
the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes
structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God help
anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the
task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle.
An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire
necessary. The heat must have melted something critical to
keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
It doesn't have to melt just weaken enough that it can no longer support
the static load and it will pancake. Exactly the same mechanism as did
for the 9/11 Twin Towers. You can protect steelwork with intumescent
paint which buys at least a couple of hours more for fire fighting.
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the
exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can
appropriately evaluate your comment.
I think he isn't far out with his assessment of that structure. It was a >cheap and nasty open frame unprotected steelwork by the looks of it and >without much of a safety margin on total loading. More like an open
frame tin shack than anything else.
It didn't have to suffer much overheating from an internal fire before
it would collapse - as is evidenced by the fact that it did!
I believe there is ONE thing we call all agree on for once and that
is the legislation needs to be introduced in all countries where EVs
have been sold which requires the drivers of them to confine
themselves to the ground floor of multi-story car parks only.
ITYM top floor. Heat and smoke rises so you want them on the top deck
where any fire and smoke can escape. Liquid fuel and LPG flow downhill
so ideally you do want any of them near the bottom so that they don't
drip burning fuel down through every deck of the car park.
Some UK multistorey car parks will not accept LPG vehicles at all.
Anyway it was a *diesel* vehicle and according to UK sources and
possibly one with a "risk of fire" voluntary recall pending on it. The >insurance aspects of that could get very interesting indeed...
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
[...]
...At least we're now starting to see eye witness
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass
communication.
The eye witness accounts of the start of the Stavanger fire said it was
an electric car that caught fire. They reported this when they rang the
fire brigade, so presumably the call was recorded - but the official
record still shows it was caused by a diesel car.
It seems strange to me that suddenly diesel cars have started causing
fires when previously they didn't. It also seems strange that diesel
cars caused such a rapid spread of the fire when all around them were
petrol and electric cars that were completely innocent of such
disastrous behaviour.
Path: not-for-mail4ax.com> <ug91ej$2i6mm$1@dont-email.me>
From: Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:08:41 +0100
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguycritical to keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
<soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights >> > lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to >> > rubble.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' >> > within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can appropriately evaluate your comment.I believe there is ONE thing we call all agree on for once and that is
the legislation needs to be introduced in all countries where EVs have
been sold which requires the drivers of them to confine themselves to
the ground floor of multi-story car parks only.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds'
within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported
his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They
were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on
a burning tyre.
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future. And they won't do a blind bit of good.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:combustion engineered vehicle which can be a whole lot heavier than regular cars.
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
Ask any anti-EV half-wit.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
What makes you think that? Gasoline- and diesel-engined vehicles have fuel tanks which are no less vulnerable to a fire in the environment.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
EVs are 30% heavier than internal combustion engined vehicles of the same size, which is to say that they aren't going to collapse any parking garage, which have to be designed so that they won't collapse if the are entirely filled with big internal
God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
Or didn't share Cursitor Doom's bizarre delusions about electric vehicles.
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
They don't put the fire out, but they do stop it spreading - evaporating water soaks up. a lot of heat
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
In Cursitor Doom's ever-so-expert opinion.Sorry, Bill, but I believe you are wrong (as usual in these matters).
This has ALL the hallmarks of an EV fire. They can't cover it up
nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 06:31:44 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:internal combustion engineered vehicle which can be a whole lot heavier than regular cars.
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:01:23?AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
<bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> >> >> >> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446> >> >> >> >
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
Ask any anti-EV half-wit.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
What makes you think that? Gasoline- and diesel-engined vehicles have fuel tanks which are no less vulnerable to a fire in the environment.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
EVs are 30% heavier than internal combustion engined vehicles of the same size, which is to say that they aren't going to collapse any parking garage, which have to be designed so that they won't collapse if the are entirely filled with big
!!
God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!
electrodes burn too. Electric vehicle batteries do have a failure mode that can make it appear that they burst into flame spontaneously, but any kind of battery monitoring system can give you early warning of that in plenty of time to let you discharge
Or didn't share Cursitor Doom's bizarre delusions about electric vehicles.
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
They don't put the fire out, but they do stop it spreading - evaporating water soaks up. a lot of heat
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
In Cursitor Doom's ever-so-expert opinion.
Sorry, Bill, but I believe you are wrong (as usual in these matters).
You and Flyguy do like to believe that I am wrong and you are right. It's much more comforting than the other choice.
You do like to believe in fatuous nonsense, so a lot people do think that you are wrong. They are probably right.
This has ALL the hallmarks of an EV fire.
Which you can't actually list. EV's burn because they use an organic electroyte inside the cells, and if the cells got hot enough they burst and the electrolyte catches on fire just like petrol and diesel fuel. The lithium and graphite in the
They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......
You get the usual mark - "f" for fatuous.
Do try to learn a bit more about the subjects you pontificate on. You did try to become more expert about global warming, but you are dim twit, so it didn't help.I do know diesel fuel is not volatile enough to start such a fire. It doesn't catch fire in the same way as petrol. We're told this is a
diesel vehicle incessantly; doesn't make it true. This has the stamp
of EV all over it. At least we're now starting to see eye witness
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass
communication. Still wanna bet it was diesel? Just doesn't add-up,
Bill. You can add-up, can't you? Please tell me you *can* add-up!
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
[...]
...At least we're now starting to see eye witness
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass
communication.
The eye witness accounts of the start of the Stavanger fire said it was
an electric car that caught fire. They reported this when they rang the
fire brigade, so presumably the call was recorded - but the official
record still shows it was caused by a diesel car.
It seems strange to me that suddenly diesel cars have started causing
fires when previously they didn't. It also seems strange that diesel
cars caused such a rapid spread of the fire when all around them were
petrol and electric cars that were completely innocent of such
disastrous behaviour.
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
[...]
...At least we're now starting to see eye witnessThe eye witness accounts of the start of the Stavanger fire said it was
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass communication.
an electric car that caught fire. They reported this when they rang the
fire brigade, so presumably the call was recorded - but the official
record still shows it was caused by a diesel car.
It seems strange to me that suddenly diesel cars have started causing
fires when previously they didn't. It also seems strange that diesel
cars caused such a rapid spread of the fire when all around them were
petrol and electric cars that were completely innocent of such
disastrous behaviour.
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 6:32:33?AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> >> On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported
wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds'
within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!!
his remarks") clearly didn't.
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a diesel car.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They
were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on
a burning tyre.
You mean the Luton garage fire that was started by a diesel vehicle?
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.And they won't do a blind bit of good.
It's funny how the fire officials disagree with you. I bet you get that a lot, no?
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being
started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the >> fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
I understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire? If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
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From: Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:56:17 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 12/10/2023 12:33, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446> >>>>>>
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers'
flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park
itself turned to rubble. When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow!
And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other
cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in smoke. And of course,
the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes
structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God help
anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the
task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle.
An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire
necessary. The heat must have melted something critical to
keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
It doesn't have to melt just weaken enough that it can no longer support >the static load and it will pancake. Exactly the same mechanism as did
for the 9/11 Twin Towers. You can protect steelwork with intumescent
paint which buys at least a couple of hours more for fire fighting.
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the
exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can
appropriately evaluate your comment.
I think he isn't far out with his assessment of that structure. It was a >cheap and nasty open frame unprotected steelwork by the looks of it and >without much of a safety margin on total loading. More like an open
frame tin shack than anything else.
It didn't have to suffer much overheating from an internal fire before
it would collapse - as is evidenced by the fact that it did!
I believe there is ONE thing we call all agree on for once and that
is the legislation needs to be introduced in all countries where EVs
have been sold which requires the drivers of them to confine
themselves to the ground floor of multi-story car parks only.
ITYM top floor. Heat and smoke rises so you want them on the top deck >where any fire and smoke can escape. Liquid fuel and LPG flow downhill
so ideally you do want any of them near the bottom so that they don't
drip burning fuel down through every deck of the car park.
Some UK multistorey car parks will not accept LPG vehicles at all.
Anyway it was a *diesel* vehicle and according to UK sources andInteresting that you appear to know the vehicle involved but decline
possibly one with a "risk of fire" voluntary recall pending on it. The >insurance aspects of that could get very interesting indeed...
to name it. I'll help you out here. It turns out to be a Landrover
Discovery Sports SUV *hybrid* with a PHEV plug-in lithium battery
under the front passenger seat, so I think we can guess where all
those flames came from now.
So there we go, the MSM got it wrong again.
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:08:52 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:56:17 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:Cursitor Doom is convinced of it. More rational people aren't.
On 12/10/2023 12:33, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote: >>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446> >>>>>>
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers'
flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park
itself turned to rubble. When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow!
And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other
cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in smoke. And of course,
the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes
structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God help
anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the
task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. >>>> An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire >>>> necessary. The heat must have melted something critical to
keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
It doesn't have to melt just weaken enough that it can no longer support >the static load and it will pancake. Exactly the same mechanism as did >for the 9/11 Twin Towers. You can protect steelwork with intumescent >paint which buys at least a couple of hours more for fire fighting.
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the
exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can
appropriately evaluate your comment.
I think he isn't far out with his assessment of that structure. It was a >cheap and nasty open frame unprotected steelwork by the looks of it and >without much of a safety margin on total loading. More like an open >frame tin shack than anything else.
It didn't have to suffer much overheating from an internal fire before >it would collapse - as is evidenced by the fact that it did!
I believe there is ONE thing we call all agree on for once and that
is the legislation needs to be introduced in all countries where EVs
have been sold which requires the drivers of them to confine
themselves to the ground floor of multi-story car parks only.
What burns in EV fires is primarily the organic liquid electrolyte in the cells. It can't get out until the cells burst, and they have to get pretty hot for that to happen.ITYM top floor. Heat and smoke rises so you want them on the top deck >where any fire and smoke can escape. Liquid fuel and LPG flow downhill >so ideally you do want any of them near the bottom so that they don't >drip burning fuel down through every deck of the car park.
The carbon and the lithium in the cells also burns, but it isn't liquid and doesn't flow around as easily as the electrolyte does.
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:30:37 PM UTC+11, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:<snip>
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:08:52 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:56:17 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 12/10/2023 12:33, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
The carbon and the lithium in the cells also burns, but it isn't liquid and doesn't flow around as easily as the electrolyte does.
That's not true. A fully discharged cathode (full of Li ions) without electrolyte can ignite like a rocket. I have done it a few times, just for fun and demo.
Rocket fuel contains it own oxidiser and can be ignited in a vacuum. A fully discharge cathode doesn't and shouldn't.
It can burn fast, but it need oxygen from the air to oxidise. Presumably if you get it hot enough some of the constituents will volatilise to form a burning jet, but while that may look like a rocket, the mechanism is different.
Lithium oxide (lithium ions) shouldn't burn any more that caustic soda (sodium ions) does. The graphite is more flammable,
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:08:52 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:56:17 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 12/10/2023 12:33, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
The carbon and the lithium in the cells also burns, but it isn't liquid and doesn't flow around as easily as the electrolyte does.
That's not true. A fully discharged cathode (full of Li ions) without electrolyte can ignite like a rocket. I have done it a few times, just for fun and demo.
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 7:30:42 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:30:37 PM UTC+11, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 4:35:35 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:<snip>
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:08:52 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:56:17 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 12/10/2023 12:33, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
The carbon and the lithium in the cells also burns, but it isn't liquid and doesn't flow around as easily as the electrolyte does.
That's not true. A fully discharged cathode (full of Li ions) without electrolyte can ignite like a rocket. I have done it a few times, just for fun and demo.
Rocket fuel contains it own oxidiser and can be ignited in a vacuum. A fully discharge cathode doesn't and shouldn't.
It can burn fast, but it need oxygen from the air to oxidise. Presumably if you get it hot enough some of the constituents will volatilise to form a burning jet, but while that may look like a rocket, the mechanism is different.
Lithium oxide (lithium ions) shouldn't burn any more that caustic soda (sodium ions) does. The graphite is more flammable,
Lithium ions in cathode may not be same as Lithium oxide. Lithium particles are highly combustible, on it's way to become Lithium oxide.
I am sure dead Lithium batteries can ignite like firework/rocket.
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
[...]
...At least we're now starting to see eye witness
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass
communication.
The eye witness accounts of the start of the Stavanger fire said it was
an electric car that caught fire. They reported this when they rang the
fire brigade, so presumably the call was recorded - but the official
record still shows it was caused by a diesel car.
It seems strange to me that suddenly diesel cars have started causing
fires when previously they didn't. It also seems strange that diesel
cars caused such a rapid spread of the fire when all around them were
petrol and electric cars that were completely innocent of such
disastrous behaviour.
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 22:23:41 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being
started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the >>> fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
I understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire? If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Yes. Many years ago, a friend was worried that fumes from kerosene
used in the basement to wash car parts during repair might travel to
the gas-fired water heater and go off, launching the house over the
moon.
So I set up a little demonstration, pouring a little kerosene into a
shallow dish, lighting a match, and moving slowly towards the dish.
She saw this and started to scream no no no ...
Which ended when the match went out when it was wetted, all without
drama. Lit another match and held if just above the kerosene surface
for a minute. No reaction.
Her objections ceased.
The ultimate car fire knock down is no longer allowed a small single
hand holdable BCF canister could take one down in seconds. Banned now
under the Montreal protocol but not back then.
Once it is alight then diesel is more effective at spreading fire than petrol. Petrol has a tendency to flash over explosively and quickly....
whereas diesel burns steadily and flows along the ground. Liquid fire
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors
will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the
flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't
believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer gets.
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
Once it is alight then diesel is more effective at spreading fire than petrol. Petrol has a tendency to flash over explosively and quickly....
Yes - however, it is much more difficult to light in the first place.
It either needs something that can act as a wick or some sort of
pre-heater which can raise the liquid to flash point. Petrol funes only
need a tiny amount of energy to start a fire but diesel needs large
amounts of energy over a period of time.
When it comes to accidental fires, diesel is a long way down the list of potential starting materials (below cotton and paper).
whereas diesel burns steadily and flows along the ground. Liquid fireNot unless the ground is absorbent like a wick or so hot from radiant
heat that the diesel is raised above its flash point.
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel is >> burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A
flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors
will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the
flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't
believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and >> ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer
gets.
I have just tried the following experiment:
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette >lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set
fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out -
the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel
pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the >matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the
slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol
pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry
patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 09:51:58 +0100
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On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:05:06 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel is >> burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A >> flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors >> will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the
flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't
believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and >> ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer >> gets.
I have just tried the following experiment:
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette >lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set
fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out -
the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel
pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the >matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the >slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol >pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry
patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
It's more fun too.
I spend some time yesterday trying to blow up some big power schottky
diodes. I guess starting fires with diesel would have been more
adventurous.
On 12/10/2023 22:44, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 22:23:41 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being >>>> started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the >>>> fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
I understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire? If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Yes. Many years ago, a friend was worried that fumes from kerosene
used in the basement to wash car parts during repair might travel to
the gas-fired water heater and go off, launching the house over the
moon.
So I set up a little demonstration, pouring a little kerosene into a
shallow dish, lighting a match, and moving slowly towards the dish.
I wouldn't like to bet on that. When we lived in Belgium we went around >various houses to choose which one to rent. Most have the oil tank and
boiler in the basement and one had an inch of kerosene on the floor with
the boiler merrily running. The flowstop interlock had failed and the
whole house reeked of kerosene. We couldn't leave quickly enough.
She saw this and started to scream no no no ...
Which ended when the match went out when it was wetted, all without
drama. Lit another match and held if just above the kerosene surface
for a minute. No reaction.
Her objections ceased.
Kerosene/paraffin is relatively safe to handle. But people have been
killed cleaning parts with petrol on the kitchen table.
Vapour pressure is too low to ignite the fumes but once it is properly
alight you have liquid fire that can flow downhill. Car tyres and
plastic mouldings probably provide the necessary wick to allow it to
sustain burning in the initial phase. Once a car is alight you need a
proper fire extinguisher to put it out.
Water ones are only any good for breaking down locked firedoors (at
least that was what I was taught back in the 80's). The fire training
course for solvent and chemical fires was impressive. Dry powder will
take out a car fire provided that you aim at the base of the fire. CO2
might if you are very lucky. Most people aim too high partly from the
the recoil of the discharge and a tendency to point it at the flames.
The ultimate car fire knock down is no longer allowed a small single
hand holdable BCF canister could take one down in seconds. Banned now
under the Montreal protocol but not back then.
ISTR it is still used in aircraft for critical fire suppression systems.
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
The ultimate car fire knock down is no longer allowed a small single
hand holdable BCF canister could take one down in seconds. Banned now
under the Montreal protocol but not back then.
I have used a BCF extinguisher on a car fire, so I know from experience
that it works. (The fire turned out to be an attempted insurance
fraud, so my efforts weren't appreciated by the owner)
I cannot see the logic of banning BCF in extinguishers, I would have
thought discharging one extinguisher would do far less environmental
damage than the toxic combustion products of an uncontrollable car fire.
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From: Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 18:01:34 +0100
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Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a diesel car.I understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer gets.I have just tried the following experiment:
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set
fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out -
the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel
pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol
pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry
patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:07:07 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, andI have just tried the following experiment:
ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer gets.
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set
fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out -
the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel
pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry
patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
Your experiment might if you had some idea of what you were doing. Are
you saying that your experiment proves that the parking deck at the
Stavanger airport did not start with a diesel car as the fire officials claim? Are you proving them incompetent?
What is going on in your head, that makes you so convinced you are
right??? You are starting to come across like one of the more dense
people here. Normally you are pretty rational.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
Rick C.
--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...].. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
I do understand it [see other post]. It is not relevant to the spread
of diesel fires in the open air.
[...]
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
Rick C.
--+ Get 1,000 miles of free SuperchargingDo I detect a vested interest here?
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:07:07 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel isI have just tried the following experiment:
burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A
flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors
will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and
ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer
gets.
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out - the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
Your experiment might if you had some idea of what you were doing. AreOf course not. I merely pointed out that there were eye-witness
you saying that your experiment proves that the parking deck at the Stavanger airport did not start with a diesel car as the fire officials claim? Are you proving them incompetent?
accounts which claimed that the first vehicle to catch fire was
electric.
What is going on in your head, that makes you so convinced you are right??? You are starting to come across like one of the more denseYou said:
people here. Normally you are pretty rational.
"> I don't think you understand what a flash point is.
If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame
will follow the fuel."
I showed that in ordinary circumstances, on a concrete floor, it didn't behave that way.
Your assertions based on closed-cup flash points
(which I do understand) do not apply to diesel burning openly on a
surface. Temperatures of at least 200C are needed before diesel will
catch fire and continue to burn without needing a flame from an external source to keep it alight.
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:07:07 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel isI have just tried the following experiment:
burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A >> > > flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors >> > > will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the
flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't
believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and
ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer >> > > gets.
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette
lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set
fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out -
the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel
pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the
matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the >> > slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol
pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry
patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
Your experiment might if you had some idea of what you were doing. Are
you saying that your experiment proves that the parking deck at the
Stavanger airport did not start with a diesel car as the fire officials
claim? Are you proving them incompetent?
Of course not. I merely pointed out that there were eye-witness
accounts which claimed that the first vehicle to catch fire was
electric.
What is going on in your head, that makes you so convinced you are
right??? You are starting to come across like one of the more dense
people here. Normally you are pretty rational.
You said:
"> I don't think you understand what a flash point is.
If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame
will follow the fuel."
I showed that in ordinary circumstances, on a concrete floor, it didn't >behave that way. Your assertions based on closed-cup flash points
(which I do understand) do not apply to diesel burning openly on a
surface. Temperatures of at least 200C are needed before diesel will
catch fire and continue to burn without needing a flame from an external >source to keep it alight.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:32:14 PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...].. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
I do understand it [see other post]. It is not relevant to the spread
of diesel fires in the open air.
[...]
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
Rick C.
--+ Get 1,000 miles of free SuperchargingDo I detect a vested interest here?
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Yes, by owning an EV, I have a vested interest in learning the truth,
which is clearly not shared by yourself. Please use the link in my
previous post and learn something.
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:32:14 PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...].. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
I do understand it [see other post]. It is not relevant to the spread
of diesel fires in the open air.
[...]
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
Rick C.
--+ Get 1,000 miles of free SuperchargingDo I detect a vested interest here?
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Yes, by owning an EV, I have a vested interest in learning the truth, which is clearly not shared by yourself. Please use the link in my previous post and learn something.I own a diesel van with diesel-fired appliances, some of which I have adapted for diesel myself; during that process I have learned a lot
about the combustion properties of diesel. I haven't attempted to make comments about electric vehicles because I don't have any practical experience of them
You own an electric vehicle and have practical experience as an owner
and user (but presumably not as a designer). You have made assertions
about the combustion of diesel which clearly show misunderstandings of
the theory and lack of practical experience.
It appears that your desire to learn the truth does not extend to areas
of the wider subject on which you have set yourself up as an authority.
Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
[...].. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
I do understand it [see other post]. It is not relevant to the spread
of diesel fires in the open air.
[...]
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
Rick C.
--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Do I detect a vested interest here?
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as beingI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the >> > fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire, which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being >> > started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later theI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a >> > diesel car.
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air >> in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire, which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat. But they never mentioned
that. I'd wager the same thing happened at Stavanger. Nothing must be allowed to impede the changeover to EVs, even if catastrophic damage
ensues from a lithium fire. Hence the rush to cover-up the real cause.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being >> > started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later theI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a >> > diesel car.
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air >> in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire, which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial lithium battery under the passenger seat.
But they never mentioned that.
I'd wager the same thing happened at Stavanger. Nothing must be allowed to impede the changeover to EVs, even if catastrophic damage ensues from a lithium fire.
Hence the rush to cover-up the real cause.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
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On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as beingI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range
started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the
fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that
caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read
the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire,
which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire
officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They
published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can
find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. >You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other >comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash >point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
But they never mentioned
that. I'd wager the same thing happened at Stavanger. Nothing must be
allowed to impede the changeover to EVs, even if catastrophic damage
ensues from a lithium fire. Hence the rush to cover-up the real cause.
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
The ultimate car fire knock down is no longer allowed a small single
hand holdable BCF canister could take one down in seconds. Banned now
under the Montreal protocol but not back then.
I have used a BCF extinguisher on a car fire, so I know from experience
that it works. (The fire turned out to be an attempted insurance
fraud, so my efforts weren't appreciated by the owner)
I cannot see the logic of banning BCF in extinguishers, I would have
thought discharging one extinguisher would do far less environmental
damage than the toxic combustion products of an uncontrollable car fire.
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read >the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire, >which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire >officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They >published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can >find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. >You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other >comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash >point.
If you pour diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
The BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a diesel vehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail wasclearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's (not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or correction in any of the news bulletins since.
The real cause could not have been diesel on its own because diesel
doesn't spontaneously burst into flames below about 200C - by saying
these were diesel vehicles it makes it easy for the media and the public
to draw the wrong conclusions. The real causes of diesel vehicle fires
are electrical faults, spillages of flammable liquid onto a hot
manifold, contents catching fire, tyres or brakes overheating etc.
Apart from electrical faults, none of these would occur in a parked
diesel vehicle that had not shown any signs of fire when the owner
parked it - and an electrical fault would be highly unlikely to set fire
to the diesel until the fire had reached an advanced stage.
As an aside: about 30 years ago one particular make of car had a bad reputation for catching fire after even a minor collision. The cause remained unknown until one day there was a very minor collision followed
by fire outside our local fire station. The firemen (it was mainly men
in those days) dashed out and promptly extinguished the flames, then had
a look to see what had happened. The plastic brake fluid reservoir had popped out of the metal brake cylinder casting and was dangling on its sensor wiring. The fluid had poured over the hot manifold.
Brake fluid will spontaneously catch fire in air at a much lower
temperature than petrol, but everyone had previously assumed that petrol must have somehow been involved and had failed to find the real cause.
A note was issued for owners or garages to put a nylon zip-tie around the reservoir, to hold it firmly onto the brake cylinder body.
On 13/10/2023 09:51, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
The ultimate car fire knock down is no longer allowed a small single
hand holdable BCF canister could take one down in seconds. Banned now
under the Montreal protocol but not back then.
I have used a BCF extinguisher on a car fire, so I know from experience that it works. (The fire turned out to be an attempted insurance
fraud, so my efforts weren't appreciated by the owner)
I cannot see the logic of banning BCF in extinguishers, I would have thought discharging one extinguisher would do far less environmental
damage than the toxic combustion products of an uncontrollable car fire.
It is an astonishingly good catalyst for destroying ozone. It turns out
that even fluorine chemists like to be able to go out into the sunshine.
ISTR Halon 1211 is still permitted in critical aerospace applications.
Our computer suite was protected by a Halon system and there was a
normal air set hung up in the middle of the room and another just
outside the door.
The advice was if it went off to stop breathing and get out immediately.
A lungful of that stuff and you have only 12s of consciousness remaining before you black out. Never had it go off.
We did have an inert gas risk but from bulk argon where I worked. Almost
the same molecular mass as CO2 so it pools in low lying corridors and
you don't notice a lack of oxygen at all. Advice was always don a normal
air set before going in to rescue someone or else you will risk becoming
a casualty yourself. What snuffs out fires isn't good to breathe.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire officialswho were convinced it started in the diesel car. They published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can find it with
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
But electrical faults can happen in parked cars. It's not common, but it does happen.
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being >> > started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later theI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range >> Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a >> > diesel car.
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that >> caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air >> in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read >the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire, >which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire >officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They >published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can >find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. >You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other >comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash >point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' triedThe BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a diesel vehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail was clearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
(not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or correction in any of the news bulletins since.
But they never mentionedThe real cause could not have been diesel on its own because diesel
that. I'd wager the same thing happened at Stavanger. Nothing must be allowed to impede the changeover to EVs, even if catastrophic damage ensues from a lithium fire. Hence the rush to cover-up the real cause.
doesn't spontaneously burst into flames below about 200C.
- by saying
these were diesel vehicles it makes it easy for the media and the public
to draw the wrong conclusions. The real causes of diesel vehicle fires
are electrical faults, spillages of flammable liquid onto a hot
manifold, contents catching fire, tyres or brakes overheating etc.
Apart from electrical faults, none of these would occur in a parked
diesel vehicle that had not shown any signs of fire when the owner
parked it - and an electrical fault would be highly unlikely to set fire
to the diesel until the fire had reached an advanced stage.
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:15:11 AM UTC+11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a dieselvehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail was clearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's
(not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or correction in any of the news bulletins since.
More likely they wanted to make clear that it wasn't an electric vehicle - which it wasn't - due to the current hysteria about electric vehicles
fires.
But electrical faults can happen in parked cars. It's not common, but itdoes happen.
This emphasises the point that there are lots of ways for cars to catch onfire, and the current obsession about self-heating and thermal runaway
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:32:12?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:07:07?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:Of course not. I merely pointed out that there were eye-witness
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel isI have just tried the following experiment:
burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A
flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors
will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the >> > > > flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't
believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and
ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer
gets.
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml
of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette >> > > lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set
fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out -
the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel
pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the >> > > matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the >> > > slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol >> > > pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry
patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
Your experiment might if you had some idea of what you were doing. Are
you saying that your experiment proves that the parking deck at the
Stavanger airport did not start with a diesel car as the fire officials
claim? Are you proving them incompetent?
accounts which claimed that the first vehicle to catch fire was
electric.
Which means nothing. The fire officials have completed their analysis and determined the fire was started by a diesel vehicle. Why would you bother to post anecdotal evidence in the face of an authoritative report?
officials. Do you really think your little experiment has any weight compared to that??? Why are you being so silly about this?What is going on in your head, that makes you so convinced you areYou said:
right??? You are starting to come across like one of the more dense
people here. Normally you are pretty rational.
"> I don't think you understand what a flash point is.
If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame
will follow the fuel."
I showed that in ordinary circumstances, on a concrete floor, it didn't
behave that way.
Sorry, I thought you tested on a "paving slab", which is a very porous material from my experience. Concrete is very much not nearly so porous. Regardless, your experiment serves no purpose. A garage fire started in a diesel auto, as stated by fire
here is the link. You will find the relevant text in section 2.2.Your assertions based on closed-cup flash points
(which I do understand) do not apply to diesel burning openly on a
surface. Temperatures of at least 200C are needed before diesel will
catch fire and continue to burn without needing a flame from an external
source to keep it alight.
How is any of this relevant??? Diesel cars catch fire and can destroy entire garages. It's a proven fact according to the fire officials who wrote the report on the Stavanger airport garage fire. Here, since you refuse to find the report yourself,
https://risefr.com/media/publikasjoner/upload/2020/rise-report-2020-91-evaluation-of-fire-in-stavanger-airport-cark-park-7-january-2
Now, will you please stop jabbering about your pointless home brew tests?
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11 AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:[...]
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' triedThe BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a diesel vehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail was clearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's (not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or correction in any of the news bulletins since.
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire as
starting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that
as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they report. In particular, *facts* that will eventually appear in an official report at some time in the future?
But they never mentionedThe real cause could not have been diesel on its own because diesel
that. I'd wager the same thing happened at Stavanger. Nothing must be allowed to impede the changeover to EVs, even if catastrophic damage ensues from a lithium fire. Hence the rush to cover-up the real cause.
doesn't spontaneously burst into flames below about 200C.
But this is *your* analysis which means nothing.
Are you saying the
garage fire at the Stavanger Airport was not started by a diesel vehicle?
I provided you with the link to the official report. Did you refuse to[...]
read it because it contradicts your beliefs?
Read the goddamn report on the Stavanger fire.
...Until then, you are just
being deliberately stupid!
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
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Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:15:11 AM UTC+11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
[...]
The BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a dieselvehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail was clearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's (not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or correction in any of the news bulletins since.
More likely they wanted to make clear that it wasn't an electric vehicle - which it wasn't - due to the current hysteria about electric vehicles fires.
That's the point, the current 'hysteria' is not about electrical vehicle fires, it is specifically about the extra fire hazard posed by lithium batteries. The diesel-electric hybrid had a lithium battery and this fact was obscured by the BBC report.
It might be conspiracy, it might be cock-up; years ago a conspiracy theory involving the BBC would have been unthinkable, but nowadays it is far from unlikely.
But electrical faults can happen in parked cars. It's not common, but itdoes happen.
Yes, the chance of an electrical fault happening is about the same in all types of car but cars with lithium batteries appear to have an additional hazard which the others don't.
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additional hazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the safest of the> commonly available typesand the least likely to burst into flames.
This emphasises the point that there are lots of ways for cars to catch onfire, and the current obsession about self-heating and thermal runaway
in electric car batteries probably stops people from looking at all the other potential failure modes.
Those failure modes are equally present in every type of car, the battery problem is in addition to those.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:19:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:32:12?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:07:07?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >> > > Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:Of course not. I merely pointed out that there were eye-witness
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel isI have just tried the following experiment:
burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A
flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors
will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the
flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't >> > > > believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and
ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer
gets.
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml >> > > of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette
lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set >> > > fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out - >> > > the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel >> > > pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the
matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the
slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol
pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry >> > > patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
Your experiment might if you had some idea of what you were doing. Are >> > you saying that your experiment proves that the parking deck at the
Stavanger airport did not start with a diesel car as the fire officials >> > claim? Are you proving them incompetent?
accounts which claimed that the first vehicle to catch fire was
electric.
Which means nothing. The fire officials have completed their analysis and determined the fire was started by a diesel vehicle. Why would you bother to post anecdotal evidence in the face of an authoritative report?
officials. Do you really think your little experiment has any weight compared to that??? Why are you being so silly about this?What is going on in your head, that makes you so convinced you areYou said:
right??? You are starting to come across like one of the more dense
people here. Normally you are pretty rational.
"> I don't think you understand what a flash point is.
If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame
will follow the fuel."
I showed that in ordinary circumstances, on a concrete floor, it didn't >> behave that way.
Sorry, I thought you tested on a "paving slab", which is a very porous material from my experience. Concrete is very much not nearly so porous. Regardless, your experiment serves no purpose. A garage fire started in a diesel auto, as stated by fire
here is the link. You will find the relevant text in section 2.2.Your assertions based on closed-cup flash points
(which I do understand) do not apply to diesel burning openly on a
surface. Temperatures of at least 200C are needed before diesel will
catch fire and continue to burn without needing a flame from an external >> source to keep it alight.
How is any of this relevant??? Diesel cars catch fire and can destroy entire garages. It's a proven fact according to the fire officials who wrote the report on the Stavanger airport garage fire. Here, since you refuse to find the report yourself,
https://risefr.com/media/publikasjoner/upload/2020/rise-report-2020-91-evaluation-of-fire-in-stavanger-airport-cark-park-7-january-2
Now, will you please stop jabbering about your pointless home brew tests?I would suggest that people look at figure 5.4 on page 45 in the RISE report, and read the entirety of section 5.6: the fire outran the fire brigade.
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additionalhazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the
safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst into flames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric
cars.
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additionalhazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst into flames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric cars.
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to
be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of
vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to
the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com>
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Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additionalhazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any
additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the
safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst into >> flames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric
cars.
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to
be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of
vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the >total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to
the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:15:11?AM UTC+11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read
the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire,
which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire
officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They
published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can
find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. >> > >You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other
comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash
point.
If you pour diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
Rick has posted a link to the official report on the Stavanger fire.
It specifically states "On 7 January 2020 at approx. 15:25 hours a fire broke out in an Opel Zafira", and "The car
ignited a short time after it was started."
The Zafira was offered with both diesel and gasoline engines.
The BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a diesel vehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail wasclearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's (not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or correction in any of the news bulletins since.
More likely they wanted to make clear that it wasn't an electric vehicle - which it wasn't - due to the current hysteria about electric vehicles fires.
The real cause could not have been diesel on its own because diesel
doesn't spontaneously burst into flames below about 200C - by saying
these were diesel vehicles it makes it easy for the media and the public
to draw the wrong conclusions. The real causes of diesel vehicle fires
are electrical faults, spillages of flammable liquid onto a hot
manifold, contents catching fire, tyres or brakes overheating etc.
Apart from electrical faults, none of these would occur in a parked
diesel vehicle that had not shown any signs of fire when the owner
parked it - and an electrical fault would be highly unlikely to set fire
to the diesel until the fire had reached an advanced stage.
But electrical faults can happen in parked cars. It's not common, but it does happen.
As an aside: about 30 years ago one particular make of car had a bad
reputation for catching fire after even a minor collision. The cause
remained unknown until one day there was a very minor collision followed
by fire outside our local fire station. The firemen (it was mainly men
in those days) dashed out and promptly extinguished the flames, then had
a look to see what had happened. The plastic brake fluid reservoir had
popped out of the metal brake cylinder casting and was dangling on its
sensor wiring. The fluid had poured over the hot manifold.
Brake fluid will spontaneously catch fire in air at a much lower
temperature than petrol, but everyone had previously assumed that petrol
must have somehow been involved and had failed to find the real cause.
Fires have a way of obscuring "the real cause". They are destructive.
A note was issued for owners or garages to put a nylon zip-tie around the reservoir, to hold it firmly onto the brake cylinder body.
This emphasises the point that there are lots of ways for cars to catch on fire, and the current obsession about self-heating and thermal runaway in electric car batteries probably stops people from looking at all the other potential failure modes.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:will eventually appear in an official report at some time in the future?
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), RickyThe BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a diesel
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as being >> > >> > started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later theI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range >> > >> Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a >> > >> > diesel car.
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that >> > >> caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism
that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air >> > >> in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read
the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire,
which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire
officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They
published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can
find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. >> > >You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other
comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash
point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
vehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail was
clearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's
(not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or
correction in any of the news bulletins since.
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire as starting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they report. In particular, *facts* that
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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From: Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
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On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 14:14:27 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additionalhazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any >> additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the
safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst into >> flames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric
cars.
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to
be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of >vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the >total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to >the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
Liz, you haven't been here long, so kindly allow me to introduce Bill
Sloman, one of our long-term resident trolls on this NG. You will
never convince him of anything; waste of time even trying. The man is impervious to logic and lives in his own little world, which revolves
around using his keyboard to annoy other people around the world who
have better things to do than argue with a troll. Nevertheless, he's
proved extraordinarily effective at ensnaring innocent people into
these long and pointless dialogues which achieve nothing for them but
futile wasted hours when other pursuits would have been far more
fruitful for them.
Just so you know...
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 14:14:27 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additionalhazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any >> >> additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the
safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst into
flames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric
cars.
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to
be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of
vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the
total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to
the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
Liz, you haven't been here long, so kindly allow me to introduce Bill
Sloman, one of our long-term resident trolls on this NG. You will
never convince him of anything; waste of time even trying. The man is
impervious to logic and lives in his own little world, which revolves
around using his keyboard to annoy other people around the world who
have better things to do than argue with a troll. Nevertheless, he's
proved extraordinarily effective at ensnaring innocent people into
these long and pointless dialogues which achieve nothing for them but
futile wasted hours when other pursuits would have been far more
fruitful for them.
Just so you know...
Actually I have been here a long time but it was under my previous name.
I believe in giving people the opportunity to add to our knowledge -
even if that addition is nothing more than what sort of person they are.
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky ><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:that will eventually appear in an official report at some time in the future?
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), RickyThe BBC radio news reported the fire officer as saying it was a diesel
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >>> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
You mean the diesel fire? Yes, someone initially reported it as beingI understand the car was identified as a diesel-electric hybrid Range >>> > >> Rover and there is video online showing it on fire before the
started by an EV which was not confirmed by the fire officials. Later the
fire officials accurately reported the fire to have been started by a
diesel car.
conflagration spread to other vehicles.
In 50+ years of motoring I've come across several petrol vehicles that >>> > >> caught fire, but never any diesel ones. What would be the mechanism >>> > >> that raised the diesel above its flash point and then ignited it in air
in sufficient quantity to cause the rest to catch fire?
You are jumping between subjects. If you go back another post and read >>> > >the entire post, you will see I was talking about the Stavanger fire, >>> > >which was started by a diesel vehicle.
As to the mechanism, you will need to discuss that with the fire
officials who were convinced it started in the diesel car. They
published a very comprehensive report on this fire. I'm sure you can
find it with Google.
I'm not sure why you are assuming the fire started the way you describe. >>> > >You don't really know anything about this subject, as shown by other
comments you've made. At least, you don't understand the use of flash >>> > >point.
If you pour
diesel on concrete and chuck a match on it, the match goes out.
Good to know. I don't normally carry matches, so no worries anyway.
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried
to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and
we now know that to be false, and that vehicle had a substantial
lithium battery under the passenger seat.
vehicle. In a very brief news summary, the inclusion of this detail was
clearly intended to have some significance and fitted in with the BBC's
(not so) hidden agenda of greenwash. I have not heard a retraction or
correction in any of the news bulletins since.
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire as starting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they report. In particular, *facts*
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have
everyone believe, I'm afraid. The official report will no doubt cite
the fact that it was a hybrid vehicle's battery which was the cause of
this conflagration, but by then no one will remember the BBC's
original lie. In addition to that, the eventual report will never
receive the extent of publicity that the fire itself generated. In the
minds of the public, EVs will still be regarded as blameless.
On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:48:02 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 14:14:27 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additional >>>>> hazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any >>>>> additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the >>>>> safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst intoflames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric >>>>> cars.
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to >>>> be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of
vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the >>>> total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to >>>> the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
Liz, you haven't been here long, so kindly allow me to introduce Bill
Sloman, one of our long-term resident trolls on this NG. You will
never convince him of anything; waste of time even trying. The man is
impervious to logic and lives in his own little world, which revolves
around using his keyboard to annoy other people around the world who
have better things to do than argue with a troll. Nevertheless, he's
proved extraordinarily effective at ensnaring innocent people into
these long and pointless dialogues which achieve nothing for them but
futile wasted hours when other pursuits would have been far more
fruitful for them.
Just so you know...
Actually I have been here a long time but it was under my previous name.
I believe in giving people the opportunity to add to our knowledge -
even if that addition is nothing more than what sort of person they are.
Are you really Liz?
One of my daughters, the one I work for, is Liz.
She thinks she's named after her grandmother, but she's actually named
after Elizabeth Bennet, the heroine of Pride and Prejudice.
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 1:07:38?PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:officials. Do you really think your little experiment has any weight compared to that??? Why are you being so silly about this?
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:19:59 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:32:12?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 7:07:07?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: >> >> > > Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:Of course not. I merely pointed out that there were eye-witness
[...]
I don't think you understand what a flash point is. If the diesel fuel isI have just tried the following experiment:
burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame will follow the fuel. A
flash point is only about raising the temperature enough that the vapors
will burn from a source of ignition. In a pool of burning diesel, the
flame has enough heat to assure the flame will spread. If you don't >> >> > > > believe me, stick your thermometer where the diesel will flow over it, and
ignite the beginning of the diesel flow. Tell me how hot the thermometer
gets.
The air temperature is 18C and there is hardly any wind. I poured 5ml >> >> > > of diesel onto a dry paving slab and tried to light it with a cigarette
lighter - it wouldn't light.
I tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't light.
I made a criss-cross pile of 6 matches, soaked them in diesel and set >> >> > > fire to them. The matches burnt for a short while and then went out - >> >> > > the surrounding pool of diesel didn't light.
I squirted 2ml of isopropanol into the middle of the spreading diesel >> >> > > pool and lit it. The isopropanol burnt away, the charred remains of the
matches and some of the diesel burnt with it, leaving a dry patch on the
slab but the fire didn't spread beyond the boundary of the isopropanol
pool. Most diesel components evaporate around 200 - 300C, so the dry >> >> > > patch suggests that the surface of the slab under the burning
isopropanol was at least that hot.
Practical experiment trumps theoretical bullshit.
Your experiment might if you had some idea of what you were doing. Are >> >> > you saying that your experiment proves that the parking deck at the
Stavanger airport did not start with a diesel car as the fire officials >> >> > claim? Are you proving them incompetent?
accounts which claimed that the first vehicle to catch fire was
electric.
Which means nothing. The fire officials have completed their analysis and determined the fire was started by a diesel vehicle. Why would you bother to post anecdotal evidence in the face of an authoritative report?
What is going on in your head, that makes you so convinced you areYou said:
right??? You are starting to come across like one of the more dense
people here. Normally you are pretty rational.
"> I don't think you understand what a flash point is.
If the diesel fuel is burning, and rolls across the ground, the flame
will follow the fuel."
I showed that in ordinary circumstances, on a concrete floor, it didn't >> >> behave that way.
Sorry, I thought you tested on a "paving slab", which is a very porous material from my experience. Concrete is very much not nearly so porous. Regardless, your experiment serves no purpose. A garage fire started in a diesel auto, as stated by fire
here is the link. You will find the relevant text in section 2.2.
Your assertions based on closed-cup flash points
(which I do understand) do not apply to diesel burning openly on a
surface. Temperatures of at least 200C are needed before diesel will
catch fire and continue to burn without needing a flame from an external >> >> source to keep it alight.
How is any of this relevant??? Diesel cars catch fire and can destroy entire garages. It's a proven fact according to the fire officials who wrote the report on the Stavanger airport garage fire. Here, since you refuse to find the report yourself,
report, and read the entirety of section 5.6: the fire outran the fire
https://risefr.com/media/publikasjoner/upload/2020/rise-report-2020-91-evaluation-of-fire-in-stavanger-airport-cark-park-7-january-2
Now, will you please stop jabbering about your pointless home brew tests? >> I would suggest that people look at figure 5.4 on page 45 in the RISE
brigade.
I read this. What is the relevance to what is being discussed?
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:48:02 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 14:14:27 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
Petrol cars and bottled-gas-powered cars have different additional >>>>>> hazards which the others don't. As far as I know diesels don't have any >>>>>> additional hazards, so, in that respect, they would appear to be the >>>>>> safest of the> commonly available types and the least likely to burst intoflames.
But they are still much more likely to burst into flames than electric >>>>>> cars.
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to >>>>> be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of
vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the >>>>> total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to >>>>> the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
Liz, you haven't been here long, so kindly allow me to introduce Bill
Sloman, one of our long-term resident trolls on this NG. You will
never convince him of anything; waste of time even trying. The man is
impervious to logic and lives in his own little world, which revolves
around using his keyboard to annoy other people around the world who
have better things to do than argue with a troll. Nevertheless, he's
proved extraordinarily effective at ensnaring innocent people into
these long and pointless dialogues which achieve nothing for them but
futile wasted hours when other pursuits would have been far more
fruitful for them.
Just so you know...
Actually I have been here a long time but it was under my previous name. >>> I believe in giving people the opportunity to add to our knowledge -
even if that addition is nothing more than what sort of person they are.
Are you really Liz?
One of my daughters, the one I work for, is Liz.
She thinks she's named after her grandmother, but she's actually named
after Elizabeth Bennet, the heroine of Pride and Prejudice.
Previously Adrian. An on again, off again regular for a decade or more.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Genderfluid?
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
[...]
Genderfluid?
Transgender - which means I was able to choose my own name.
When I was born, lots of girls were named after the two princesses,
Elizabeth and Margaret. I preferred Elizabeth and know several people
by that name, all of whom are nice people. There are various shortened >vesions - I felt tha 'Lizzie' sounded a bit childish but 'Liz' expressed
a level of informality that I felt comfortable with.
So I became "Elizabeth' by Deed Poll on my 70th birthday and a friend
baked me a '0'th birthday cake!
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 20:30:24 +0000
From: Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 16:30:23 -0400
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From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:24:09 -0700
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 18:48:02 +0100
Organization: Poppy Records
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From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 19:21:19 -0000 (UTC)
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On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 14:14:27 +0100, l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
Do we actually have the figures on a large enough number of incidents to >be able to say that with any degree of certainty? If the number of >vehicles with lithium batteries in them is only a tiny percentage of the >total number of vehicles, a few incidents will make a huge difference to >the apparent seriousness of the problem (or lack of it).
Liz, you haven't been here long, so kindly allow me to introduce Bill Sloman, one of our long-term resident trolls on this NG.
You will never convince him of anything; waste of time even trying.
The man is impervious to logic
and lives in his own little world,
which revolves around using his keyboard to annoy other people around the world who have better things to do than argue with a troll.
Nevertheless, he's proved extraordinarily effective at ensnaring innocent people into these long and pointless dialogues which achieve nothing for them but futile wasted hours when other pursuits would have been far more fruitful for them.
Just so you know...
The idiot Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...
On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 23:06:20 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
[...]
Genderfluid?
Transgender - which means I was able to choose my own name.
When I was born, lots of girls were named after the two princesses, >Elizabeth and Margaret. I preferred Elizabeth and know several people
by that name, all of whom are nice people. There are various shortened >vesions - I felt tha 'Lizzie' sounded a bit childish but 'Liz' expressed
a level of informality that I felt comfortable with.
So I became "Elizabeth' by Deed Poll on my 70th birthday and a friend >baked me a '0'th birthday cake!
We see very few females in s.e.d. and I was hoping that you were one.
Electronic design is a very male profession. I'm fortunate to have two
female EEs working for me.
Guys do seem to have a more brute-force whack-it blow-it-up-now
attitude, in general. I sure do. C helps me be more restrained when it
makes sense.
When I went to Tulane, there was one female enginering student, and
the faculty chased her out. Both her parents were engineers at NASA.
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
We see very few females in s.e.d. and I was hoping that you were one.
Treat me as a female engineer - ... etc.
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire [OT] Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 10:24:16 +0100
Organization: Poppy Records
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And a lunatic
or two.
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
We see very few females in s.e.d. and I was hoping that you were one.
Treat me as a female engineer - ... etc.
Sorry for replying to my own post but I realise I phrased my reply very >badly. I should have said "Treat me as a female engineer - in the same
way you would treat any engineer and in the same way you would like to
be treated as an engineer."
Hope you didn't take offence before you had time to read this
correction.
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 14:22:37 +0000
From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire [OT] Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 07:22:29 -0700
Organization: Highland Tech
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire [OT] Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:29:48 +0100
Organization: Poppy Records
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John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
[....]
And a lunatic
or two.
[Waves coyly] Coo-ee!
On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:29:48 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
[....]
And a lunatic
or two.
[Waves coyly] Coo-ee!
I have won awards for my insanity. Being kind of autistic, I am immune
to the peer pressures that often shut down new ideas. Actually, I
enjoy toppling crazy houses of cards.
Unfortunately, electronic design, like most things, is dominated by
human emotions. EE schools should recognize that and teach a 200-level
course on how to think and how to brainstorm and how to invent things.
A few of the kids would benefit.
I took three or four semisters of psycholology, and The Brat has a
undergrad degree in psychology and an MBA,
...but nobody seems to
appreciate the power of tribalism to destroy creativity.
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:29:48 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> wrote:
[....]
And a lunatic
or two.
[Waves coyly] Coo-ee!
I have won awards for my insanity. Being kind of autistic, I am immune
to the peer pressures that often shut down new ideas. Actually, I
enjoy toppling crazy houses of cards.
Unfortunately, electronic design, like most things, is dominated by
human emotions. EE schools should recognize that and teach a 200-level
course on how to think and how to brainstorm and how to invent things.
A few of the kids would benefit.
I was the electrical engineering student with the lowest mark in our
year who actually scraped a pass mark. As far as I know, I am the only
one who then went on to be a designer and inventor.
I took three or four semisters of psycholology, and The Brat has a
undergrad degree in psychology and an MBA,
I studied it later with the Open University, but the tutor was appaling
and was eventually sacked. Eventually I taught myself from books and
from watching other people to see what worked and what didn't. Women
are much better at this sort of thing than men, so they are the ones to
watch and see how they cope from a position of 'weakness'.
...but nobody seems to
appreciate the power of tribalism to destroy creativity.
Well said!
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:49:40 +0000
From: John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire [OT] Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 08:49:31 -0700
Organization: Highland Tech
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire [OT] Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 20:36:13 +0100
Organization: Poppy Records
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On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 14:05:45 +0100, l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Liz Tuddenham <l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com> wrote:
Part of what we do is invent things, and inventing things involves staggering around for a while in an immense murky solution space, and
the more prespectives available, the bigger space we can search.
So a good engineering team needs a spread of personalities and especially a few people who are immune to social-driven group-think. And a lunatic
or two.
So, mix it up.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire [OT] From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:01:23 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:combustion engineered vehicle which can be a whole lot heavier than regular cars.
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> >> >> wrote:
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to
rubble.
Ask any anti-EV half-wit.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke.
What makes you think that? Gasoline- and diesel-engined vehicles have fuel tanks which are no less vulnerable to a fire in the environment.
And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition.
EVs are 30% heavier than internal combustion engined vehicles of the same size, which is to say that they aren't going to collapse any parking garage, which have to be designed so that they won't collapse if the are entirely filled with big internal
!God help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
It must be the fire officials who are to blame. Both the Stavanger airport fire and the Luton airport fire were blamed on faulty diesel cars. So, clearly the fire officials don't understand the difference between a diesel car and an electric one!!
electrodes burn too. Electric vehicle batteries do have a failure mode that can make it appear that they burst into flame spontaneously, but any kind of battery monitoring system can give you early warning of that in plenty of time to let you dischargeOr didn't share Cursitor Doom's bizarre delusions about electric vehicles.
The fire chief did, but the media who reported his remarks ("reported his remarks") clearly didn't.
For whatever reason, they also don't seem to require sprinkler systems in parking garages, which would keep any such fires under control until the fire departments arrive.It was Luton Airport, which has its own Fire Service on-site. They were there in the blink of an eye, but it was already too late.
Sprinklers against lithium fires are about as effective as pissing on a burning tyre.
They don't put the fire out, but they do stop it spreading - evaporating water soaks up. a lot of heat
I bet they will have sprinkler systems in Luton and Stavanger in the future.
And they won't do a blind bit of good.
In Cursitor Doom's ever-so-expert opinion.
Sorry, Bill, but I believe you are wrong (as usual in these matters).You and Flyguy do like to believe that I am wrong and you are right. It's much more comforting than the other choice.
You do like to believe in fatuous nonsense, so a lot people do think that you are wrong. They are probably right.
This has ALL the hallmarks of an EV fire.Which you can't actually list. EV's burn because they use an organic electroyte inside the cells, and if the cells got hot enough they burst and the electrolyte catches on fire just like petrol and diesel fuel. The lithium and graphite in the
They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......You get the usual mark - "f" for fatuous.
Do try to learn a bit more about the subjects you pontificate on. You did try to become more expert about global warming, but you are dim twit, so it didn't help.
--
Bozo Bill Slowman, Sydney
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 6:31:50 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:01:23 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
electrodes burn too. Electric vehicle batteries do have a failure mode that can make it appear that they burst into flame spontaneously, but any kind of battery monitoring system can give you early warning of that in plenty of time to let you dischargeWhich you can't actually list. EV's burn because they use an organic electroyte inside the cells, and if the cells got hot enough they burst and the electrolyte catches on fire just like petrol and diesel fuel. The lithium and graphite in the
They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......You get the usual mark - "f" for fatuous.
Do try to learn a bit more about the subjects you pontificate on. You did try to become more expert about global warming, but you are dim twit, so it didn't help.
Your fiction of an "early warning system" is EXACTLY that: PURE FICTION!
Once a lithium battery pack goes into thermal runaway you don't need an "early warning system" - the smoke and flames will tell you all you need to know.
The highly flammable electrolyte just makes lithium batteries the perfect firebomb: the pressurized gasses inside the battery along with the self-generated oxygen turn them into the perfect flame torch.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Flyguy <soar2morrow@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:18:15 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:electrodes burn too. Electric vehicle batteries do have a failure mode that can make it appear that they burst into flame spontaneously, but any kind of battery monitoring system can give you early warning of that in plenty of time to let you discharge
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 6:31:50 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:<snip>
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:01:23 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
Which you can't actually list. EV's burn because they use an organic electroyte inside the cells, and if the cells got hot enough they burst and the electrolyte catches on fire just like petrol and diesel fuel. The lithium and graphite in the
as any sensible battery monitoring system will, you will know that it is showing dangerously high self-discharge if it gets up to 100C and can discharge the battery (making it safe) long before it can get to thermal runaway.They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......You get the usual mark - "f" for fatuous.
Do try to learn a bit more about the subjects you pontificate on. You did try to become more expert about global warming, but you are dim twit, so it didn't help.
Your fiction of an "early warning system" is EXACTLY that: PURE FICTION!
Far from it. Sewage Sweeper doesn't known anything about the subject, so he doesn't know anything about battery condition monitoring or what it involves, and our efforts to educate him fall down on the fact that the senile brain can't learn anything.
Once a lithium battery pack goes into thermal runaway you don't need an "early warning system" - the smoke and flames will tell you all you need to know.The point that you can't get into your head is that lithium batteries can't go into thermal runaway until their core temperature gets above 125C if they have nickel in the electrode mix or 160C if they don't. If you monitor the battery core temperature
The highly flammable electrolyte just makes lithium batteries the perfect firebomb: the pressurized gasses inside the battery along with the self-generated oxygen turn them into the perfect flame torch.But the slow progression through increasing self-charge towards thermal runaway gives you plenty of time to anticipate and avoid that particular problem.
You are much too stupid to get your head around this point, no matter how often you get told about it.
--
Bozo Bill Slowman, Sydney
On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 11:39:44 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:electrodes burn too. Electric vehicle batteries do have a failure mode that can make it appear that they burst into flame spontaneously, but any kind of battery monitoring system can give you early warning of that in plenty of time to let you discharge
On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 4:18:15 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 6:31:50 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:<snip>
On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 12:01:23 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 9:32:33?PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
Which you can't actually list. EV's burn because they use an organic electroyte inside the cells, and if the cells got hot enough they burst and the electrolyte catches on fire just like petrol and diesel fuel. The lithium and graphite in the
temperature as any sensible battery monitoring system will, you will know that it is showing dangerously high self-discharge if it gets up to 100C and can discharge the battery (making it safe) long before it can get to thermal runaway.They can't cover it up nowadays and the truth will out eventually. YOU MARK MY WORDS......You get the usual mark - "f" for fatuous.
Do try to learn a bit more about the subjects you pontificate on. You did try to become more expert about global warming, but you are dim twit, so it didn't help.
Your fiction of an "early warning system" is EXACTLY that: PURE FICTION!
Far from it. Sewage Sweeper doesn't known anything about the subject, so he doesn't know anything about battery condition monitoring or what it involves, and our efforts to educate him fall down on the fact that the senile brain can't learn anything.
Once a lithium battery pack goes into thermal runaway you don't need an "early warning system" - the smoke and flames will tell you all you need to know.The point that you can't get into your head is that lithium batteries can't go into thermal runaway until their core temperature gets above 125C if they have nickel in the electrode mix or 160C if they don't. If you monitor the battery core
The highly flammable electrolyte just makes lithium batteries the perfect firebomb: the pressurized gasses inside the battery along with the self-generated oxygen turn them into the perfect flame torch.But the slow progression through increasing self-charge towards thermal runaway gives you plenty of time to anticipate and avoid that particular problem.
You are much too stupid to get your head around this point, no matter how often you get told about it.
Your battery management "ideas" make as much sense as NUKING and FIREBOMBING YOUR OWN COUNTRY and putting in a super charger in your garage. Two car transport ships have been SUNK by EV fires and NO "early warning" was sent by any of these cars.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Flyguy <soar2morrow@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:28:16 -0700 (PDT), Flyguyto keeping the piece of junk together, obviously.
<soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 5:20:08?PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 12:49:54?PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote: >>> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:02:14 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
wrote:Looks like a flimsy steel beam structure barely suited for the task. Fire chief said belief is fire started in a diesel vehicle. An all-EV load would probably collapse that flimsy thing, no fire necessary. The heat must have melted something critical
I bet there were many BEVs in that garage.EVs. EVs are the cause of all this damage. 40,000 passengers' flights
.<https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
Reminds me of Stavanger Airport in Norway a few years ago.
lost, over a THOUSAND cars destroyed and the car park itself turned to >>> > rubble.
When EVs blow, they REALLY do blow! And you only need a few EV 'seeds' >>> > within a cluster of other cars to ensure the whole lot goes up in
smoke. And of course, the increased load due to the heavy weight of
EVs causes structural collapse of these buildings in addition. God
help anyone trapped under the collapsed floors. :(
Why don't you publish you civil engineering credentials and the exact engineering deficiencies of this structure so we can appropriately evaluate your comment.
I don't need to see his credentials to evaluate his comment. ;->
He seems to be unaware that no petrol/diesel fire has ever collapsed a steel-framed building.
He also seems to be unaware that at the same
time as the fire chief's remarks were being quoted by the BBC and the Guardian as attributing the fire to a diesel vehicle, he was speaking
live on the radio stating that to find the cause of the blaze could
take weeks. Operation EV Damage Limitation was already underway,
clearly.
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
[...]
...At least we're now starting to see eye witness
testimony start to come out - as it will in this age of mass
communication.
The eye witness accounts of the start of the Stavanger fire said it was
an electric car that caught fire. They reported this when they rang the
fire brigade, so presumably the call was recorded - but the official
record still shows it was caused by a diesel car.
It seems strange to me that suddenly diesel cars have started causing
fires when previously they didn't.
It also seems strange that diesel cars caused such a rapid spread of
the fire when all around them were petrol and electric cars that were completely innocent of such disastrous behaviour.
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
will eventually appear in an official report at some time in the future?I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire as starting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they report. In particular, *facts* that
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have everyone believe, I'm afraid.
The official report will no doubt cite the fact that it was a hybrid vehicle's battery which was the cause of this conflagration,
but by then no one will remember the BBC's original lie.
In addition to that, the eventual report will never receive the extent of publicity that the fire itself generated. In the minds of the public, EVs will still be regarded as blameless.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Meanwhile, the Stavanger fire was clearly started from a diesel car.
I don't think we can accept that at face value any more. 'They' tried to claim that it was a diesel car which started the fire at Luton and we now know that to be false,
and that vehicle had a substantial ithium battery under the passenger seat.
But they never mentioned that.
I'd wager the same thing happened at Stavanger.
Nothing must be allowed to impede the changeover to EVs, even if catastrophic damage ensues from a lithium fire. Hence the rush to cover-up the real cause.
On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 3:50:59 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: >
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz
Tuddenham wrote: > >> Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote: > >> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire asstarting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that
as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they >report. In particular, *facts* that will eventually appear in an official >report at some time in the future?
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have
everyone believe, I'm afraid.
This is one more of Cursitor Doom's fatuous conspiracy theories
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 3:50:59 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: >
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> >> wrote: > >On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz
Tuddenham wrote: > >> Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote: > >> > On >> Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com>
wrote: > >> > >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz
Tuddenham wrote: > >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire asstarting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that >>> as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they >>> report. In particular, *facts* that will eventually appear in an official >>> report at some time in the future?
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have
everyone believe, I'm afraid.
This is one more of Cursitor Doom's fatuous conspiracy theories
You may regret that, the BBC is no longer a reliable source of news
like it once was.
The BBC's report appeared to be quoting the fire officer as saying the vehicle was diesel, but closer examination of the punctuation shows that
the assertion was not made by the fire officer and we don't know where
the BBC got it from. The Stavanger fire was reported by several eye-witnesses to be started by an electric car on fire but the audio log
of the reports was not available to the investigators. Both reports
stink of a cover-up.
They may both turn out to be accurate, but as they stand they are at
pains to appear to be giving unbiassed facts but actually offer no
evidence to back up their assertions. You are condemning Cursitor Doom
for mentioning something that is fairly obvious to most people with sufficient knowledge and is quite likely to be exposed as the truth once
the fog of misinformation has cleared.
There is a lot of hype around electric vehicles - if they were that wonderful, why would various UK authorities need to give incentives to
buy them and force people with other vehicles to scrap them prematurely? That's not a conspiracy theory, it is based on watching what is actually happening and thinking soberly about the possible reasons behind it.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire Organization: JJ's own news server
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From: liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 15:46:48 +0100
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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:24:02 +0100
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Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 3:50:59 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: > On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote: > >> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire asstarting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that >as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they >report. In particular, *facts* that will eventually appear in an official >report at some time in the future?
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have
everyone believe, I'm afraid.
This is one more of Cursitor Doom's fatuous conspiracy theoriesYou may regret that, the BBC is no longer a reliable source of news
like it once was.
The BBC's report appeared to be quoting the fire officer as saying the vehicle was diesel, but closer examination of the punctuation shows that
the assertion was not made by the fire officer and we don't know where
the BBC got it from. The Stavanger fire was reported by several eye-witnesses to be started by an electric car on fire but the audio log
of the reports was not available to the investigators. Both reports
stink of a cover-up.
They may both turn out to be accurate, but as they stand they are at pains to appear to be giving unbiassed facts but actually offer no evidence to back up their assertions. You are condemning Cursitor Doom for mentioning something that is fairlyobvious to most people with sufficient knowledge and is quite likely to be exposed as the truth once the fog of misinformation has cleared.
There is a lot of hype around electric vehicles - if they were that wonderful, why would various UK authorities need to give incentives to buy them and force people with other vehicles to scrap them prematurely?
That's not a conspiracy theory, it is based on watching what is actually happening and thinking soberly about the possible reasons behind it.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 1:48:50 AM UTC+11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 3:50:59 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: >
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote: > >> > On
Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire asstarting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that >as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they >report. In particular, *facts* that will eventually appear in an official
report at some time in the future?
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have
everyone believe, I'm afraid.
This is one more of Cursitor Doom's fatuous conspiracy theoriesYou may regret that, the BBC is no longer a reliable source of news
like it once was.
Compared with what?
The BBC's report appeared to be quoting the fire officer as saying the vehicle was diesel, but closer examination of the punctuation shows that the assertion was not made by the fire officer and we don't know where
the BBC got it from. The Stavanger fire was reported by several eye-witnesses to be started by an electric car on fire but the audio log
of the reports was not available to the investigators. Both reports
stink of a cover-up.
Not to anybody sane,
They may both turn out to be accurate, but as they stand they are atpains to appear to be giving unbiassed facts but actually offer no
evidence to back up their assertions. You are condemning Cursitor Doom
for mentioning something that is fairly obvious to most people with sufficient knowledge and is quite likely to be exposed as the truth once
the fog of misinformation has cleared.
It may look fairly obvious to somebody who shares Cursitor Doom's taste
for fatuous conspiracy theories, but I don't have that problem.
There is a lot of hype around electric vehicles - if they were thatwonderful, why would various UK authorities need to give incentives to
buy them and force people with other vehicles to scrap them prematurely?
It's not hype. They are cheaper to run, and if we are to get anthropogenic global warming reigned in we do have to switch over to electric cars.
That's not a conspiracy theory, it is based on watching what is actuallyhappening and thinking soberly about the possible reasons behind it.
Then you need to think harder.
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 1:48:50 AM UTC+11, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 3:50:59 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote: >
On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com>
wrote: > >On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 10:15:11?AM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> Cursitor Doom <c...@notformail.com> wrote: > >> > On
Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:25:40?PM UTC-4, Liz Tuddenham wrote: > >> > >> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
I'm confused. You are saying, a "fire officer" reported the fire asstarting in a diesel fueled vehicle, but you appear to be rejecting that
as a lie by the BBC??? Really? You think the BBC lies about *facts* they
report. In particular, *facts* that will eventually appear in an official
report at some time in the future?
Yes, the BBC lied. They are not the bastion of Truth they would have
everyone believe, I'm afraid.
This is one more of Cursitor Doom's fatuous conspiracy theories.
You may regret that, the BBC is no longer a reliable source of news
like it once was.
Compared with what?
The BBC's report appeared to be quoting the fire officer as saying the vehicle was diesel, but closer examination of the punctuation shows that the assertion was not made by the fire officer and we don't know where the BBC got it from. The Stavanger fire was reported by several eye-witnesses to be started by an electric car on fire but the audio log of the reports was not available to the investigators. Both reports stink of a cover-up.
Not to anybody sane,
They may both turn out to be accurate, but as they stand they are at pains to appear to be giving unbiassed facts but actually offer no evidence to back up their assertions.
You are condemning Cursitor Doom for mentioning something that is fairly obvious to most people with sufficient knowledge and is quite likely to be exposed as the truth once the fog of misinformation has cleared.
intentionally or congenitally obtuse or you are deliberately provoking futile personal argument so as to avoid reasoned discussion.It may look fairly obvious to somebody who shares Cursitor Doom's taste for fatuous conspiracy theories, but I don't have that problem.
There is a lot of hype around electric vehicles - if they were that wonderful, why would various UK authorities need to give incentives tobuy them and force people with other vehicles to scrap them prematurely?
It's not hype. They are cheaper to run, and if we are to get anthropogenic global warming reigned in we do have to switch over to electric cars.
That's not a conspiracy theory, it is based on watching what is actually happening and thinking soberly about the possible reasons behind it.
Then you need to think harder.
I had a fairly open mind about you when I posted on this subject but I have come to a similar conclusion to some of the others. Either you are
Either way, I shan't be reading any of your posts from now on as your aggressive attitude obscures any useful information you may be able to contribute.
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Subject: Re: Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
From: Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
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