Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?The battery contains so much total energy in watt-seconds (Joules),
has a mass of XX grams and occupies YY liters of volume, and can
deliver power (watts) at maximum rate ZZ.
The issue is particularly acute for airplanes - one cannot fly across
the Atlantic or Pacific in a battery-powered airplane. You'll get
maybe 200 miles, then splash.
And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?For a vehicle, shipping costs are not the issue at all, but shipping kerosene (or coal) is far cheaper than electricity, which is why there
are multitudes of local power generation plants versus five or so
immense central power plants and a lot of transmission systems.
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?
And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 9:35:41?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:The battery contains so much total energy in watt-seconds (Joules),
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?
has a mass of XX grams and occupies YY liters of volume, and can
deliver power (watts) at maximum rate ZZ.
The issue is particularly acute for airplanes - one cannot fly across
the Atlantic or Pacific in a battery-powered airplane. You'll get
maybe 200 miles, then splash.
Yes, doesn't make sense for ICBM (M for Mobility), but perfect sense for short haul feeders.
And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?For a vehicle, shipping costs are not the issue at all, but shipping
kerosene (or coal) is far cheaper than electricity, which is why there
are multitudes of local power generation plants versus five or so
immense central power plants and a lot of transmission systems.
But we have to consider incremental shipping costs. If we have to use one additional gallon of gasoline, it might come from the middle east or Russia, and we are spending billions in energy costs (wars).
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:48:52 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 9:35:41?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:The battery contains so much total energy in watt-seconds (Joules),
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >> >> wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?
has a mass of XX grams and occupies YY liters of volume, and can
deliver power (watts) at maximum rate ZZ.
The issue is particularly acute for airplanes - one cannot fly across
the Atlantic or Pacific in a battery-powered airplane. You'll get
maybe 200 miles, then splash.
Yes, doesn't make sense for ICBM (M for Mobility), but perfect sense for short haul feeders.Possibly, at least as long as the taxpayer-funded subsidies last.
And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?For a vehicle, shipping costs are not the issue at all, but shipping
kerosene (or coal) is far cheaper than electricity, which is why there
are multitudes of local power generation plants versus five or so
immense central power plants and a lot of transmission systems.
But we have to consider incremental shipping costs. If we have to use one additional gallon of gasoline, it might come from the middle east or Russia, and we are spending billions in energy costs (wars).That's an acquisition cost, not a shipping cost.
We choose to outsource acquisition of oil and gas to less fussy
nations, so we don't have to do messy things like drill oil wells and
mine minerals ourselves. But there is no non-political reason why we
cannot drill and mine in the US.
Joe Gwinn
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
Joe Gwinn
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?The battery contains so much total energy in watt-seconds (Joules),
has a mass of XX grams and occupies YY liters of volume, and can
deliver power (watts) at maximum rate ZZ.
The issue is particularly acute for airplanes - one cannot fly across
the Atlantic or Pacific in a battery-powered airplane. You'll get
maybe 200 miles, then splash.
And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?
For a vehicle, shipping costs are not the issue at all, but shipping kerosene (or coal) is far cheaper than electricity, which is why there
are multitudes of local power generation plants versus five or so
immense central power plants and a lot of transmission systems.
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
With switching regulators, "voltage decay" isn't a problem.
Any technology that is novel, pivital, profound and promising is
probably also bogus.
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:30:08?PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:that's another area where Joe has his own opinions.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:48:52 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 9:35:41?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:Possibly, at least as long as the taxpayer-funded subsidies last.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee
<eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:The battery contains so much total energy in watt-seconds (Joules),
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >> >> >> wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?
has a mass of XX grams and occupies YY liters of volume, and can
deliver power (watts) at maximum rate ZZ.
The issue is particularly acute for airplanes - one cannot fly across
the Atlantic or Pacific in a battery-powered airplane. You'll get
maybe 200 miles, then splash.
Yes, doesn't make sense for ICBM (M for Mobility), but perfect sense for short haul feeders.
That's an acquisition cost, not a shipping cost.And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?For a vehicle, shipping costs are not the issue at all, but shipping
kerosene (or coal) is far cheaper than electricity, which is why there
are multitudes of local power generation plants versus five or so
immense central power plants and a lot of transmission systems.
But we have to consider incremental shipping costs. If we have to use one additional gallon of gasoline, it might come from the middle east or Russia, and we are spending billions in energy costs (wars).
We choose to outsource acquisition of oil and gas to less fussy
nations, so we don't have to do messy things like drill oil wells and
mine minerals ourselves. But there is no non-political reason why we
cannot drill and mine in the US.
Joe Gwinn
Joe knows so little about reality. Presently, the US exports more crude oil than we import. The problem is not getting it out of the ground. The problem is that we then burn most of it, which releases carbon into the atmosphere. But then, I suppose
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:30:08?PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:48:52 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 9:35:41?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT), Eddy Lee <eddy7...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13?AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
that's another area where Joe has his own opinions.We choose to outsource acquisition of oil and gas to less fussy nations, so we don't have to do messy things like drill oil wells and mine minerals ourselves. But there is no non-political reason why we cannot drill and mine in the US.
Joe knows so little about reality. Presently, the US exports more crude oil than we import. The problem is not getting it out of the ground. The problem is that we then burn most of it, which releases carbon into the atmosphere. But then, I suppose
When the argument turns ad hominem, it's a sign of lack of ammunition.
There are many more like this.
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:47:13?AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
I didn't realize kerosene was the gold standard in battery technology.
I wonder if you realize kerosene is a factor of 3 smaller than kerosene?
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
It is easy to separate the stupid people in sed from those who actually know how to read, by claims like this.
Joe Gwinn
I guess we know which group Joe falls into.
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT), Ricky ><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:47:13?AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
I didn't realize kerosene was the gold standard in battery technology.
I wonder if you realize kerosene is a factor of 3 smaller than kerosene?
Do you really mean that?
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
It is easy to separate the stupid people in sed from those who actually know how to read, by claims like this.
Joe Gwinn
I guess we know which group Joe falls into.
Ad hominem. Running low on ammo again.
What you are looking for are Ragone charts, which plot specific power
density versus specific energy density, of both weight in kg and
volume in liters, on log-log paper.
When one does this, fossil fuels and combustion engines are in the
upper right corner, and all battery stuff is down toward the lower
left corner.
But it's hard to find Ragone Charts covering both batteries and fossil
fuel. Mostly one sees only plots showing only the battery corner.
But it matters a lot for aviation. Consider this, reported by
Aviation Week:
"Eurocontrol Says Quest For A Greener Widebody Is In Vain", Thierry
Dubois, August 28, 2023, page 41 in the print issue (available at many >libraries).
.<https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/eurocontrol-says-quest-greener-widebody-vain>
Which may be behind a paywall. It summarizes the following paper from >Eurocontrol, published 22 August 2023:
EUROCONTROL Think Paper #21 - Long-haul flight decarbonisation: When
can cutting-edge energies & technologies make a difference?
.<https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-think-paper-21-long-haul-flight-decarbonisation-when-can-cutting-edge>
Joe Gwinn
On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 18:31:19 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT), Ricky >><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:47:13?AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
I didn't realize kerosene was the gold standard in battery technology.
I wonder if you realize kerosene is a factor of 3 smaller than kerosene?
Do you really mean that?
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
It is easy to separate the stupid people in sed from those who actually know how to read, by claims like this.
Joe Gwinn
I guess we know which group Joe falls into.
Ad hominem. Running low on ammo again.
He's actually Sloman, insults without intelligence. Ignore her.
What you are looking for are Ragone charts, which plot specific power >>density versus specific energy density, of both weight in kg and
volume in liters, on log-log paper.
When one does this, fossil fuels and combustion engines are in the
upper right corner, and all battery stuff is down toward the lower
left corner.
But it's hard to find Ragone Charts covering both batteries and fossil >>fuel. Mostly one sees only plots showing only the battery corner.
But it matters a lot for aviation. Consider this, reported by
Aviation Week:
"Eurocontrol Says Quest For A Greener Widebody Is In Vain", Thierry
Dubois, August 28, 2023, page 41 in the print issue (available at many >>libraries).
.<https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/eurocontrol-says-quest-greener-widebody-vain>
Which may be behind a paywall. It summarizes the following paper from >>Eurocontrol, published 22 August 2023:
EUROCONTROL Think Paper #21 - Long-haul flight decarbonisation: When
can cutting-edge energies & technologies make a difference?
.<https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-think-paper-21-long-haul-flight-decarbonisation-when-can-cutting-edge>
Joe Gwinn
Why do people keep reinventing supercaps made out of seaweed or
charcoal or whatever? Supercaps are even worse than batteries by about >1000:1. Somebody stores a millijoule and does a press release.
On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 16:23:02 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 18:31:19 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT), Ricky >>><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:47:13?AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:Do you really mean that?
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
I didn't realize kerosene was the gold standard in battery technology.
I wonder if you realize kerosene is a factor of 3 smaller than kerosene? >>>
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all >>>>> are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
It is easy to separate the stupid people in sed from those who actually know how to read, by claims like this.
Joe Gwinn
I guess we know which group Joe falls into.
Ad hominem. Running low on ammo again.
He's actually Sloman, insults without intelligence. Ignore her.
Yeah. But he is not important. The following is for the audience.
What you are looking for are Ragone charts, which plot specific power >>>density versus specific energy density, of both weight in kg and
volume in liters, on log-log paper.
When one does this, fossil fuels and combustion engines are in the
upper right corner, and all battery stuff is down toward the lower
left corner.
But it's hard to find Ragone Charts covering both batteries and fossil >>>fuel. Mostly one sees only plots showing only the battery corner.
But it matters a lot for aviation. Consider this, reported by
Aviation Week:
"Eurocontrol Says Quest For A Greener Widebody Is In Vain", Thierry >>>Dubois, August 28, 2023, page 41 in the print issue (available at many >>>libraries).
.<https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/eurocontrol-says-quest-greener-widebody-vain>
Which may be behind a paywall. It summarizes the following paper from >>>Eurocontrol, published 22 August 2023:
EUROCONTROL Think Paper #21 - Long-haul flight decarbonisation: When
can cutting-edge energies & technologies make a difference?
.<https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-think-paper-21-long-haul-flight-decarbonisation-when-can-cutting-edge>
Joe Gwinn
Why do people keep reinventing supercaps made out of seaweed or
charcoal or whatever? Supercaps are even worse than batteries by about >>1000:1. Somebody stores a millijoule and does a press release.
The basic reason is to handle pulse loads that solar cell sources
cannot. People use flywheels for the same reason.
The big breakthrough would be the invention of a far better
superconductor than what we now have. This would solve a number of
problems, including:
Energy storage, in a big super conducting toroidal inductor.
Fusion by magnetic containment. Current containment fields are far
too weak to be leak proof despite a host of small but significant
leakage processes. Having ten time the field would likely suffice.
Joe Gwinn
On Sat, 07 Oct 2023 12:05:55 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 16:23:02 -0700, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 06 Oct 2023 18:31:19 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:
On Mon, 2 Oct 2023 12:00:42 -0700 (PDT), Ricky >>>><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 10:47:13?AM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:Do you really mean that?
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power >>>>>> and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than >>>>>> that of kerosene.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
I didn't realize kerosene was the gold standard in battery technology. >>>>>
I wonder if you realize kerosene is a factor of 3 smaller than kerosene? >>>>
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all >>>>>> are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
It is easy to separate the stupid people in sed from those who actually know how to read, by claims like this.
Joe Gwinn
I guess we know which group Joe falls into.
Ad hominem. Running low on ammo again.
He's actually Sloman, insults without intelligence. Ignore her.
Yeah. But he is not important. The following is for the audience.
What you are looking for are Ragone charts, which plot specific power >>>>density versus specific energy density, of both weight in kg and
volume in liters, on log-log paper.
When one does this, fossil fuels and combustion engines are in the >>>>upper right corner, and all battery stuff is down toward the lower
left corner.
But it's hard to find Ragone Charts covering both batteries and fossil >>>>fuel. Mostly one sees only plots showing only the battery corner.
But it matters a lot for aviation. Consider this, reported by
Aviation Week:
"Eurocontrol Says Quest For A Greener Widebody Is In Vain", Thierry >>>>Dubois, August 28, 2023, page 41 in the print issue (available at many >>>>libraries).
.<https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/eurocontrol-says-quest-greener-widebody-vain>
Which may be behind a paywall. It summarizes the following paper from >>>>Eurocontrol, published 22 August 2023:
EUROCONTROL Think Paper #21 - Long-haul flight decarbonisation: When >>>>can cutting-edge energies & technologies make a difference?
.<https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication/eurocontrol-think-paper-21-long-haul-flight-decarbonisation-when-can-cutting-edge>
Joe Gwinn
Why do people keep reinventing supercaps made out of seaweed or
charcoal or whatever? Supercaps are even worse than batteries by about >>>1000:1. Somebody stores a millijoule and does a press release.
The basic reason is to handle pulse loads that solar cell sources
cannot. People use flywheels for the same reason.
The big breakthrough would be the invention of a far better
superconductor than what we now have. This would solve a number of >>problems, including:
Energy storage, in a big super conducting toroidal inductor.
Fusion by magnetic containment. Current containment fields are far
too weak to be leak proof despite a host of small but significant
leakage processes. Having ten time the field would likely suffice.
Joe Gwinn
There was a plan for a miles-diameter superconductive inductor, flat
and not a toroid, for energy storage. It would confuse birds and
compasses in all directions.
Superconductors can't make super high fields. MRIs are teasing the
edges of self-quenching.
A quench is fairly dramatic. I've seen quenches of smaller NMR
magnets, which are not dangerous in a big room.
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13 AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire atLithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the core of
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
--
Bozo Bill Slowman, Sydney
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 5:53:14?PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote: >> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13?AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>Lithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the core of
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
Yes, Bozo, lithium batteries DO catch fire at random - there are numerous examples of that happening. The latest PRIME example is that of the car carrier that caught fire off of the Netherlands, sinking the ENTIRE SHIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDj3xvGKno
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
Please detail the battery monitoring system that alerted the crew of this ship.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguyof the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
<soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 5:53:14?PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13?AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >> > wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
Lithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the core
Yes, Bozo, lithium batteries DO catch fire at random - there are numerous examples of that happening. The latest PRIME example is that of the car carrier that caught fire off of the Netherlands, sinking the ENTIRE SHIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDj3xvGKno
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
Please detail the battery monitoring system that alerted the crew of this ship.
I doubt that any battery monitoring system is going to catch a defect that expands into an inferno in seconds.
Even if something did detect a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:If you took any battery that had self-heated to about 100C - way short
Even if something did detect a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
You get a much earlier notice than that, and you just discharge the battery (not fast enough to heat it up appreciably, and the battery monitoring system will allow you to keep track of that).
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguyof the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
<soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 5:53:14?PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13?AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >> > wrote:Lithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the core
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
Yes, Bozo, lithium batteries DO catch fire at random - there are numerous examples of that happening. The latest PRIME example is that of the car carrier that caught fire off of the Netherlands, sinking the ENTIRE SHIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDj3xvGKno
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
Please detail the battery monitoring system that alerted the crew of this ship.
I doubt that any battery monitoring system is going to catch a defect
that expands into an inferno in seconds. Even if something did detect
a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack
in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:38:08?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:of the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
<soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 5:53:14?PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13?AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> >> >> > wrote:Lithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the core
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
I doubt that any battery monitoring system is going to catch a defect
Yes, Bozo, lithium batteries DO catch fire at random - there are numerous examples of that happening. The latest PRIME example is that of the car carrier that caught fire off of the Netherlands, sinking the ENTIRE SHIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDj3xvGKno
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
Please detail the battery monitoring system that alerted the crew of this ship.
that expands into an inferno in seconds. Even if something did detect
a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack
in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
So what? That "a defect that..." phrase identifies an unlikely event, like a lightning
strike. It has already been noted that insurance companies (who tally these things)
haven't found it to be a problem, in comparison with alternative technologies.
On 12/10/2023 05:13, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:If you took any battery that had self-heated to about 100C - way short
of the threshold for thermal runaway - and discharged it into a load, it wouldn't be a threat any more
Even if something did detect a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
You get a much earlier notice than that, and you just discharge the battery (not fast enough to heat it up appreciably, and the battery monitoring system will allow you to keep track of that).
Discharge it into what and for how long? According to <https://ev-database.org/uk/cheatsheet/useable-battery-capacity-electric-car>,
the average capacity of an EV battery is around 70kWh. What discharge
rate would have a measurable effect to stop the battery heating up appreciably in less than a few hours, and other than discharging it into something producing heat, what could be used, and how could it be
connected up?
Would it be possible to use the charging socket "in reverse", and take
power from the EV through that? Perhaps the simplest and safest way
would be to have a tank with a couple of cubic metres of cold water, and discharge the EV battery into it through a heating element similar to
those in electric kettles.
Any other ideas?
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 5:53:14 PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13 AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decay
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?Yes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all
are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
Lithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the core of
Lithium batteries DO catch fire at random - there are numerous examples of that happening.
The latest PRIME example is that of the car carrier that caught fire off of the Netherlands, sinking the ENTIRE SHIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDj3xvGKno
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
Please detail the battery monitoring system that alerted the crew of this ship.
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:01:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>core of the battery is warmer than it's environment is easy to monitor. Thermal runaway doesn't set in until the core of the battery gets above 125C (for electrodes that include nickel) and about 160C for those that don't.
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 8:38:08?PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
<soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 5:53:14?PM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 1:47:13?AM UTC+11, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>Lithium batteries don't catch fire at random. Like all batteries, their self-discharge rate gets higher as they get older, which heats the battery even when it isn't doing anything useful, and raises the self-discharge rate. The fact that the
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power >> >> > and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than >> >> > that of kerosene.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
And lithium batteries have the added problem of catching fire at
random, and setting any neighboring such batteries alight, until all >> >> > are consumed. Which happens way too fast for everybody to escape.
that expands into an inferno in seconds.I doubt that any battery monitoring system is going to catch a defect
Yes, Bozo, lithium batteries DO catch fire at random - there are numerous examples of that happening. The latest PRIME example is that of the car carrier that caught fire off of the Netherlands, sinking the ENTIRE SHIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDj3xvGKno
If you don't pay any attention to the warning from the battery monitoring system, you might think that this happened at random, and several of or resident right-wing lunatics (Cursitor Doom and Flyguy) do have this delusion, but it is a delusion.
Please detail the battery monitoring system that alerted the crew of this ship.
Even if something did detect a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
haven't found it to be a problem, in comparison with alternative technologies.So what? That "a defect that..." phrase identifies an unlikely event, like a lightning strike. It has already been noted that insurance companies (who tally these things)
New York City is averaging hundreds of fires a year, with dozens of deaths, started by lithium batteries in scooters and such. It's not a trivial issue.
Those fires are most likely in cheap imported bikes and scooters, but even Teslas explode now and then.
I doubt that any monitoring technology will reduce the battery hazard much.
I've seen videos of scooters exploding like a bomb.
On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 7:47:13 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 02 Oct 2023 04:21:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje <al...@comet.invalid>
wrote:
Novel battery technology with negligible voltage decayYes. But the problem with batteries in general is that their power
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230928151711.htm
Summary:
A pivotal breakthrough in battery technology that has profound implications for our energy future has been achieved.
I know every week a new battery tech is announced, but this may be more real?
and energy densities are about a factor of one hundred smaller than
that of kerosene.
How do you calculate the energy density of battery, per pound?
And how about the shipping costs of kerosene vs. electricity?
On 12/10/2023 05:13, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:If you took any battery that had self-heated to about 100C - way short
of the threshold for thermal runaway - and discharged it into a load, it wouldn't be a threat any more
Even if something did detect a short, what could anybody do about it? Dissasemble the battery pack in seconds? In a car surrounded by other cars!
You get a much earlier notice than that, and you just discharge the battery (not fast enough to heat it up appreciably, and the battery monitoring system will allow you to keep track of that).
Discharge it into what and for how long? According to
<https://ev-database.org/uk/cheatsheet/useable-battery-capacity-electric-car>,
the average capacity of an EV battery is around 70kWh. What discharge
rate would have a measurable effect to stop the battery heating up appreciably in less than a few hours, and other than discharging it into something producing heat, what could be used, and how could it be
connected up?
Would it be possible to use the charging socket "in reverse", and take
power from the EV through that? Perhaps the simplest and safest way
would be to have a tank with a couple of cubic metres of cold water, and discharge the EV battery into it through a heating element similar to
those in electric kettles.
Any other ideas?
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