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From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
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Subject: Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
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Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:12:37 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Silicon isn't a likely starter. There's only 30% as much in the universe as there is carbon, and its complex compounds fall apart more easily. There are more d-orbitals than p-orbitals. which mean a wider range of potential fragments.
On 24/09/2023 10:38, Anthony William Sloman wrote:organically-based, but is fabricated from many component parts. In that case, a creative, self-aware intelligent robot might well be silicon-based (or based any other semiconductor material).
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:12:37 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Silicon isn't a likely starter. There's only 30% as much in the universe as there is carbon, and its complex compounds fall apart more easily. There are more d-orbitals than p-orbitals. which mean a wider range of potential fragments.
Well, to misquote a well-known series, "It might be life, but not as we know it". If you believe that AI is going anywhere, then it might be well to consider that the next from of life might not be
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From: Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 12:55:34 +0100
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On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:55:44 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 24/09/2023 10:38, Anthony William Sloman wrote:organically-based, but is fabricated from many component parts. In that case, a creative, self-aware intelligent robot might well be silicon-based (or based any other semiconductor material).
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:12:37 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> >> Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Silicon isn't a likely starter. There's only 30% as much in the universe as there is carbon, and its complex compounds fall apart more easily. There are more d-orbitals than p-orbitals. which mean a wider range of potential fragments.
Well, to misquote a well-known series, "It might be life, but not as we know it". If you believe that AI is going anywhere, then it might be well to consider that the next from of life might not be
But they'd have to build a whole industrial base to replicated themselves. That's not going to arise spontaneously. which is no guarantee that the rest of the universe isn't full of it.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:55:44 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 24/09/2023 10:38, Anthony William Sloman wrote:organically-based, but is fabricated from many component parts. In that case, a creative, self-aware intelligent robot might well be silicon-based (or based any other semiconductor material).
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:12:37 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common >>>> Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Silicon isn't a likely starter. There's only 30% as much in the universe as there is carbon, and its complex compounds fall apart more easily. There are more d-orbitals than p-orbitals. which mean a wider range of potential fragments.
Well, to misquote a well-known series, "It might be life, but not as we know it". If you believe that AI is going anywhere, then it might be well to consider that the next from of life might not be
But they'd have to build a whole industrial base to replicated themselves. That's not going to arise spontaneously. which is no guarantee that the rest of the universe isn't full of it.
On 2023-09-24, Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:55:44 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 24/09/2023 10:38, Anthony William Sloman wrote:organically-based, but is fabricated from many component parts. In that case, a creative, self-aware intelligent robot might well be silicon-based (or based any other semiconductor material).
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:12:37 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common >> >> Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Silicon isn't a likely starter. There's only 30% as much in the universe as there is carbon, and its complex compounds fall apart more easily. There are more d-orbitals than p-orbitals. which mean a wider range of potential fragments.
Well, to misquote a well-known series, "It might be life, but not as we know it". If you believe that AI is going anywhere, then it might be well to consider that the next from of life might not be
But they'd have to build a whole industrial base to replicated themselves. That's not going to arise spontaneously. which is no guarantee that the rest of the universe isn't full of it.
As I understand it viruses are currently considered to be alive.
This loweres the bar somewhat.
On 24/09/2023 14:18, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 9:55:44 PM UTC+10, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 24/09/2023 10:38, Anthony William Sloman wrote:organically-based, but is fabricated from many component parts. In that case, a creative, self-aware intelligent robot might well be silicon-based (or based any other semiconductor material).
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:12:37 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common >>>> Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Silicon isn't a likely starter. There's only 30% as much in the universe as there is carbon, and its complex compounds fall apart more easily. There are more d-orbitals than p-orbitals. which mean a wider range of potential fragments.
Well, to misquote a well-known series, "It might be life, but not as we know it". If you believe that AI is going anywhere, then it might be well to consider that the next from of life might not be
But they'd have to build a whole industrial base to replicated themselves. That's not going to arise spontaneously. which is no guarantee that the rest of the universe isn't full of it.To invoke another fictional idea, I was thinking more of the Cyberdyne/Skynet situation from the "Terminator" films. In those, it is humans who create Skynet They then lose control of it, and the AI beings become the dominant form of life. As those AI beings can create more and more complex and terminators, I assume that meets the requirement of a replicating - and adapting and advancing - form of life.
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
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Subject: Re: Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
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Subject: Re: Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
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On 24/09/2023 05:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?Autocatalytic reactions are very cute as are some of the diffusion
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
limited ones which can create patterns in sedimentary rocks that could easily be mistaken for fossils. On balance I think it is far more likely that life will evolve to use the most commonly available materials which tend to be organic and carbon based since the elements CNO are available
in large amounts from supernova ejecta.
Heavier elements are all comparatively rare. One of the prettiest self catalysing reactions is the cerium ion based chemical clock first
discovered by Belousov in the Soviet Union in the 1950's where he wasn't believed and couldn't publish it because he couldn't fully explain it.
A decade later Zhabotinsky figured out the reactions and succeeded in publishing it but it wasn't until an international conference in 1968
that western chemists became aware of it. It was a huge surprise since
it was a very simple recipe with incredibly complex behaviour.
It is possible to build reaction vessels to implement a nand gate in
this liquid chemistry environment so it is formally Turing complete!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belousov–Zhabotinsky_reaction
I wouldn't rule out other life forms using chemical energy rather than photosynthesis (like at black smokers on Earth) but I think it is a bit
far fetched for them to be other than carbon, sulphur or maybe silicon based. No other elements can support a varied enough chemistry.
On 24/09/2023 05:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Autocatalytic reactions are very cute as are some of the diffusion
limited ones which can create patterns in sedimentary rocks that could
easily be mistaken for fossils. On balance I think it is far more likely
that life will evolve to use the most commonly available materials which
tend to be organic and carbon based since the elements CNO are available
in large amounts from supernova ejecta.
Heavier elements are all comparatively rare. One of the prettiest self >catalysing reactions is the cerium ion based chemical clock first
discovered by Belousov in the Soviet Union in the 1950's where he wasn't >believed and couldn't publish it because he couldn't fully explain it.
A decade later Zhabotinsky figured out the reactions and succeeded in >publishing it but it wasn't until an international conference in 1968
that western chemists became aware of it. It was a huge surprise since
it was a very simple recipe with incredibly complex behaviour.
It is possible to build reaction vessels to implement a nand gate in
this liquid chemistry environment so it is formally Turing complete!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belousov–Zhabotinsky_reaction
I wouldn't rule out other life forms using chemical energy rather than >photosynthesis (like at black smokers on Earth) but I think it is a bit
far fetched for them to be other than carbon, sulphur or maybe silicon
based. No other elements can support a varied enough chemistry.
On Monday, 25 September 2023 at 09:25:37 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 24/09/2023 05:12, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I wouldn't rule out other life forms using chemical energy rather than photosynthesis (like at black smokers on Earth) but I think it is a bit far fetched for them to be other than carbon, sulphur or maybe silicon based. No other elements can support a varied enough chemistry.Earth life is chemically complex, but minimised machines to o the essentials are less chemically complex. It seems Occam was ignored on Earth.
On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:25:27 +0100) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <uerg5p$1qoba$1@dont-email.me>:
A decade later Zhabotinsky figured out the reactions and succeeded in
publishing it but it wasn't until an international conference in 1968
that western chemists became aware of it. It was a huge surprise since
it was a very simple recipe with incredibly complex behaviour.
It is possible to build reaction vessels to implement a nand gate in
this liquid chemistry environment so it is formally Turing complete!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belousov–Zhabotinsky_reaction
I wouldn't rule out other life forms using chemical energy rather than
photosynthesis (like at black smokers on Earth) but I think it is a bit
far fetched for them to be other than carbon, sulphur or maybe silicon
based. No other elements can support a varied enough chemistry.
Thank you for the link, took a while to read it all.
On Monday, 25 September 2023 at 09:25:37 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
I wouldn't rule out other life forms using chemical energy rather than
photosynthesis (like at black smokers on Earth) but I think it is a bit
far fetched for them to be other than carbon, sulphur or maybe silicon
based. No other elements can support a varied enough chemistry.
Earth life is chemically complex, but minimised machines to o the essentials are less chemically complex. It seems Occam was ignored on Earth.
On 26/09/2023 05:27, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Sep 2023 09:25:27 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <uerg5p$1qoba$1@dont-email.me>:
A decade later Zhabotinsky figured out the reactions and succeeded in
publishing it but it wasn't until an international conference in 1968
that western chemists became aware of it. It was a huge surprise since
it was a very simple recipe with incredibly complex behaviour.
It is possible to build reaction vessels to implement a nand gate in
this liquid chemistry environment so it is formally Turing complete!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belousov–Zhabotinsky_reaction
I wouldn't rule out other life forms using chemical energy rather than
photosynthesis (like at black smokers on Earth) but I think it is a bit
far fetched for them to be other than carbon, sulphur or maybe silicon
based. No other elements can support a varied enough chemistry.
Thank you for the link, took a while to read it all.
It is a really beautiful demo reaction for schools - especially in a
petri dish on an OHP (remember them?). I first saw it when George Porter
did it at the Royal Institution Xmas lectures in 1969 - unfortuately the
BBC tapes for that are missing :( He was *very* good. The B-Z reaction
was practically unknown in the West when he first showed it apart from
to a select few who had been at the conference the previous year.
https://www.rigb.org/christmas-lectures/watch-royal-institution-christmas-lectures-archive
Provided that you use distilled water (has to be chlorine/chloride free)
the recipe is very forgiving and works in almost all reasonable
proportions of bromate/perbromate and malonic acid. It is yellow to
clear with just cerium catalyst in and red to blue if you add Ferroin >indicator. It is by far the easiest chemical clock known.
The 1921 Brey/Leibhafsky iodide/iodate one with peroxide is by
comparison incredibly tetchy and only works if the wind is in the right >direction even for an experienced chemist (they too were not believed).
More on chemical clocks here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oscillator
There are many more single shot chemical clocks aka time fuses.
On a sunny day (Tue, 26 Sep 2023 08:41:46 +0100) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ueu1vt$2dds1$1@dont-email.me>:
There are many more single shot chemical clocks aka time fuses.
Here an other one, today, now trying to use AI to discriminate between life and non-life samples:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230925153744.htm
' Did life exist on Mars? Other planets? With AI's help, we may know soon' Well, .. for what it is worth.
But maybe AI should / could be considered less biased..
OTOH 90% leaves enough space for deniers...
Alien life may not be carbon-based, new study suggests
https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-common
Intriguing 'autocatalytic' reactions appear to be far more common than scientists had thought.
Actually a search of 2 centuries of digitized documents?
Not sure how / if such old experiments will be valid.
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
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