On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:11:50 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.And consumer commodity bulbs don't have to be dirt cheap? These type lamps
<https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/solhetta-led-bulb-e26-450-lumen-globe-clear-10530117/>
certainly are 'enough LEDs in series' and not much else; there's no ROOM for more parts than that.
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>>some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:40:53 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:11:50 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.And consumer commodity bulbs don't have to be dirt cheap? These type lamps
<https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/solhetta-led-bulb-e26-450-lumen-globe-clear-10530117/>
certainly are 'enough LEDs in series' and not much else; there's no ROOM for more parts than that.It's probably grade F efficiency:
On 09/09/2023 15:11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>>some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb
failure that I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was bought they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
--
Martin Brown
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:10:59 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
søndag den 10. september 2023 kl. 16.44.38 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:40:53 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:11:50 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.And consumer commodity bulbs don't have to be dirt cheap? These type lamps
<https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/solhetta-led-bulb-e26-450-lumen-globe-clear-10530117/>
That's not the Edison filament bulb. I didn't find one that he did on the Solhetta.it's grade C which in the pre 2020 rating would have been better than A++certainly are 'enough LEDs in series' and not much else; there's no ROOM for more parts than that.It's probably grade F efficiency:
søndag den 10. september 2023 kl. 16.44.38 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:40:53 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:11:50 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.And consumer commodity bulbs don't have to be dirt cheap? These type lamps
<https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/solhetta-led-bulb-e26-450-lumen-globe-clear-10530117/>
it's grade C which in the pre 2020 rating would have been better than A++certainly are 'enough LEDs in series' and not much else; there's no ROOM for more parts than that.It's probably grade F efficiency:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 10:57:40 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/09/2023 15:11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
No one is interested in an example of degenerate ad hoc engineering that was completely abandoned, and for good reason.
One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb
failure that I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was
bought they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the
expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
On 10/09/2023 16:18, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 10:57:40 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/09/2023 15:11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: >>>>> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltageUh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
No one is interested in an example of degenerate ad hoc engineering that was completely abandoned, and for good reason.They were made like that presumably to be as cheap and nasty as
possible. When they worked they were fine and instant on with true rated brightness unlike the previous generation of CFLs which came on dimly
and almost never reached the brightness that their packaging claimed.
That was their undoing. I expect you can still buy them on fleaBay.One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb
failure that I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was >> bought they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the
expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
--
Martin Brown
søndag den 10. september 2023 kl. 17.21.07 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:10:59 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
søndag den 10. september 2023 kl. 16.44.38 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:40:53 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:11:50 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:
Uh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltage
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.And consumer commodity bulbs don't have to be dirt cheap? These type lamps
<https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/solhetta-led-bulb-e26-450-lumen-globe-clear-10530117/>
there is seval types of Solhetta bulbsThat's not the Edison filament bulb. I didn't find one that he did on the Solhetta.it's grade C which in the pre 2020 rating would have been better than A++certainly are 'enough LEDs in series' and not much else; there's no ROOM for more parts than that.It's probably grade F efficiency:
the filament one is (new) grade C https://www.ikea.com/dk/da/p/solhetta-led-paere-e27-470-lumen-globe-klar-00498660/
On 10/09/2023 16:18, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 10:57:40 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/09/2023 15:11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: >>>>> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltageUh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
No one is interested in an example of degenerate ad hoc engineering that was completely abandoned, and for good reason.They were made like that presumably to be as cheap and nasty as
possible. When they worked they were fine and instant on with true rated brightness unlike the previous generation of CFLs which came on dimly
and almost never reached the brightness that their packaging claimed.
One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb
failure that I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was >> bought they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the
expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
That was their undoing. I expect you can still buy them on fleaBay.
--
Martin Brown
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:28:53 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:counting on that effect. It should work pretty well or not depending upon sensitivity of light output to differential I. If they were going for max lumens, they were probably working the LEDs too hard. Apparently significant derating of the operating
On 10/09/2023 16:18, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 10:57:40 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/09/2023 15:11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: >>>>> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltageUh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
If you have a single LED I-V, then stacking them in series in effect creates a composite I-V that is the same with V-axis multiplied by the number in the stack. That could be quite a softening effect. For them to use 60 makes me think they wereNo one is interested in an example of degenerate ad hoc engineering that was completely abandoned, and for good reason.They were made like that presumably to be as cheap and nasty as
possible. When they worked they were fine and instant on with true rated brightness unlike the previous generation of CFLs which came on dimly
and almost never reached the brightness that their packaging claimed.
One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb
failure that I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was
bought they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the >> expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb failure that
I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was bought
they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
On 9/10/2023 7:57 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.I suspect that's designed with cost as the sole factor.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
Most of my LED lights have just a few (e.g., less than 10)
emitters. Hard to imagine a whopping dropping resistor
to soak up ~100V of potential!
They were made like that presumably to be as cheap and nasty as possible. When
they worked they were fine and instant on with true rated brightness unlike the
previous generation of CFLs which came on dimly and almost never reached the brightness that their packaging claimed.
søndag den 10. september 2023 kl. 17.49.22 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs:counting on that effect. It should work pretty well or not depending upon sensitivity of light output to differential I. If they were going for max lumens, they were probably working the LEDs too hard. Apparently significant derating of the operating
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:28:53 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 10/09/2023 16:18, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 10:57:40 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 09/09/2023 15:11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 9:01:28 AM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:You are wrong. I have a dead one sat in a drawer somewhere nearby.
lørdag den 9. september 2023 kl. 14.46.48 UTC+2 skrev Fred Bloggs: >>>>> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:25:43 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
some are linear, enough LEDs in series to add up to most of the rectified line voltageUh-huh. LEDs don't flicker. They're all powered by regulated switching ***current*** sources operating in the 20kHz-30kHz range. LEDs are not directly powered by voltage, and the current sources are immune to voltage fluctuation.
Maybe you have cheap flourescent-replacement tubes.
I'm pretty sure they've never used that method for the commodity lighting bulb market. Maybe for signs and indicator bulb types of applications where it has to be dirt cheap.
60 LEDs in series across rectified UK 240v mains.
If you have a single LED I-V, then stacking them in series in effect creates a composite I-V that is the same with V-axis multiplied by the number in the stack. That could be quite a softening effect. For them to use 60 makes me think they wereNo one is interested in an example of degenerate ad hoc engineering that was completely abandoned, and for good reason.They were made like that presumably to be as cheap and nasty as possible. When they worked they were fine and instant on with true rated brightness unlike the previous generation of CFLs which came on dimly and almost never reached the brightness that their packaging claimed.
One single LED in the chain has failed. It was the first LED bulb
failure that I ever saw so I dismantled it to see why.
They are the cheapest and nastiest on the market, but at the time it was
bought they sold for premium prices with exaggerated MTBF based on the
expected failure time of a single LED. True MTBF is claimed/60.
derating also significantly increases efficiency, at the cost of needing more leds for the same light output
derating also significantly increases efficiency, at the cost of
needing more leds for the same light output
In article <87d7569f-932b-4430-a34c-858307af260bn@googlegroups.com>,
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
derating also significantly increases efficiency, at the cost of
needing more leds for the same light output
No it is not, as long as efficiency means lumens/watt.
Two times as many leds cost two times as much obviously, but
the leds components are dirt cheap and vanish completely with
the price of total energy consumption.
On 11/09/2023 10:13, albert wrote:
In article <87d7569f-932b-4430...@googlegroups.com>,
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
derating also significantly increases efficiency, at the cost of
needing more leds for the same light output
No it is not, as long as efficiency means lumens/watt.Unfortunately consumers look at the headline initial price to buy and
Two times as many leds cost two times as much obviously, but
the leds components are dirt cheap and vanish completely with
the price of total energy consumption.
ignore the running costs. That means that the cheapest and nastiest ones
sell in the greatest quantities even if they are less reliable.
On 11/09/2023 10:13, albert wrote:
In article <87d7569f-932b-4430-a34c-858307af260bn@googlegroups.com>,
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
derating also significantly increases efficiency, at the cost of
needing more leds for the same light output
No it is not, as long as efficiency means lumens/watt.
Two times as many leds cost two times as much obviously, but
the leds components are dirt cheap and vanish completely with
the price of total energy consumption.
Unfortunately consumers look at the headline initial price to buy and ignore the running costs. That means that the cheapest and nastiest ones sell in the greatest quantities even if they are less reliable.
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 08:10:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTI
<spamme@not.com> wrote:
Note the 1N4007 diodes are replaced by a regular bridge rectifier with
suitable ratings. It is easier to model using 1N4007s than trying to find a >> bridge rectifier in LTspice.
The 1N4007 works more like a PIN diode, the other 1N400x diodes are
normal diodes.
piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
The model you used for 1N4007 has something very wrong - if I replace
with one of the 600V types included with LTSpice then the crazy currents
disappear and the circuit does more as you describe. Have you checked
Pdiss in R4?
piglet
VII doesn't have the 1N4007, so I got the model from LTspice IV. It shows a PIV of 1,500 v. There are no 600 V versions in IV.
I see no crazy currents in IV or VII. Can you tell me more about what you are seeing?
I tried to plot the power in R4 but had no luck in IV or VII. I tried to calculate pwr(V(x), V(a)) but got 9.65e+307 with no units. So I have to guess. I'll try a 2W wirewound.
On 2023-09-09 05:42, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 08:10:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTIIIRC it's 1N4005 and up that are PIN structures.
<spamme@not.com> wrote:
Note the 1N4007 diodes are replaced by a regular bridge rectifier with
suitable ratings. It is easier to model using 1N4007s than trying to find a >>> bridge rectifier in LTspice.
The 1N4007 works more like a PIN diode, the other 1N400x diodes are
normal diodes.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:33:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-09-09 05:42, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 08:10:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTIIIRC it's 1N4005 and up that are PIN structures.
<spamme@not.com> wrote:
Note the 1N4007 diodes are replaced by a regular bridge rectifier with >>>> suitable ratings. It is easier to model using 1N4007s than trying to find a
bridge rectifier in LTspice.
The 1N4007 works more like a PIN diode, the other 1N400x diodes are
normal diodes.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
The higher voltage rectifiers often make great drift-step-recovery
(Grehkov) diodes.
2KV negative pulse:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q82toc257fv43z8/DSRD_neg-2KV.JPG?raw=1
On 2023-09-11 14:08, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:33:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-09-09 05:42, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 08:10:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTIIIRC it's 1N4005 and up that are PIN structures.
<spamme@not.com> wrote:
Note the 1N4007 diodes are replaced by a regular bridge rectifier with >>>>> suitable ratings. It is easier to model using 1N4007s than trying to find a
bridge rectifier in LTspice.
The 1N4007 works more like a PIN diode, the other 1N400x diodes are
normal diodes.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
The higher voltage rectifiers often make great drift-step-recovery
(Grehkov) diodes.
2KV negative pulse:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q82toc257fv43z8/DSRD_neg-2KV.JPG?raw=1
I'm impressed that it survived enough pulses for a full trace. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Problem solved! During line wrap demangling I had corrupted the 1N4007
model Ibv=10u to become bv=10u so the extraordinary diode currents in my
sim were it breaking down at microvolts. Now it sims more like you saw.
piglet
I'm going to experiment with uploading ASC and PLT files directly. If I
can get Google Drive to stop using one of its editors and wrapping the
lines, then it should work.
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