• not OT : fear

    From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 26 10:43:57 2022
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 14:11:00 2022
    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 14:18:36 2022
    John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    In lots of places, the state would very likely take your kids away for
    raising them in the formerly normal free-range style.

    If kids never get to take small risks on their own, they never learn.

    A pity.

    Phil Hobbs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jul 26 11:38:26 2022
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for

    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 15:13:27 2022
    On 7/26/2022 2:38 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for

    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.


    I've experienced bigger shocks from 12 volt batteries than this

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From boB@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology. on Tue Jul 26 13:09:02 2022
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 10:43:57 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:


    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.




    We need more expendible technicians !

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to boB on Tue Jul 26 16:12:34 2022
    On 7/26/2022 4:09 PM, boB wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 10:43:57 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:


    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.




    We need more expendible technicians !


    Fireproof paper:

    <https://youtu.be/FnblmZdTbYs>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 15:35:31 2022
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
     if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to amdx on Tue Jul 26 17:59:28 2022
    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
     if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Imagine being annoyed everyone got a ribbon in kindergarten, lol.

    You think your superior genetics made your kid such an ubermensch that
    they were already being "robbed" of proper recognition in what, the
    FINGER PAINTING COMPETITION? First place in nap time or not spilling
    their apple juice n cookies?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to amdx on Tue Jul 26 17:44:34 2022
    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
     if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Why, it was probably almost regularly illegal to give the gays an
    old-fashioned brick-bashing back then. The country has really gone to
    hell since the good ol' days..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 16:16:21 2022
    On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
    120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals.
    It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his
    '60s and hadn't killed himself...

    It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
    you didn't expect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jul 26 17:21:59 2022
    On 7/26/2022 4:59 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
      if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Imagine being annoyed everyone got a ribbon in kindergarten, lol.

    No reward for merit. Why strive. Cs are fine, don't try to do better.


    You think your superior genetics made your kid such an ubermensch
     No, it was parents that made sure they did their best, mostly an Asian mother!


    that they were already being "robbed" of proper recognition in what,
    the FINGER PAINTING COMPETITION? First place in nap time or not
    spilling their apple juice n cookies?

    Ya, probably should wait until the end of High school.



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jul 26 17:17:26 2022
    On 7/26/2022 4:44 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
      if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Why, it was probably almost regularly illegal to give the gays an old-fashioned brick-bashing back then. The country has really gone to
    hell since the good ol' days..
    That is a leap to far, just shows your hatred for conservatives. Nothing constructive here.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to amdx on Tue Jul 26 18:26:52 2022
    On 7/26/2022 6:21 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 4:59 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >>>> Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies. >>>>


    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
      if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Imagine being annoyed everyone got a ribbon in kindergarten, lol.

    No reward for merit. Why strive. Cs are fine, don't try to do better.


    You think your superior genetics made your kid such an ubermensch
     No, it was parents that made sure they did their best, mostly an Asian mother!


    that they were already being "robbed" of proper recognition in what,
    the FINGER PAINTING COMPETITION? First place in nap time or not
    spilling their apple juice n cookies?

    Ya, probably should wait until the end of High school.




    Show me the kindergarten teacher who thinks they can objectively rank
    the finger-paints of 5-6 y/os on their artistic merit.

    So they can be sent to a loony bin..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to amdx on Tue Jul 26 18:24:29 2022
    On 7/26/2022 6:17 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 4:44 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >>>> Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies. >>>>


    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
      if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Why, it was probably almost regularly illegal to give the gays an
    old-fashioned brick-bashing back then. The country has really gone to
    hell since the good ol' days..
    That is a leap to far, just shows your hatred for conservatives. Nothing constructive here.


    I was barely out of middle school about that time and that's certainly
    not the way I remember what school was like then. Which school was this?
    My middle school had hardly changed since the late fifties. A bunch of
    the staff that were hired in the late fifties were still there, in fact..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jul 26 15:27:32 2022
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.
    On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
    120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals.
    It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his
    '60s and hadn't killed himself...

    It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
    you didn't expect.

    I use my bare fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won't even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had to
    bring it to my friend to unmount it from the car.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jul 26 15:37:15 2022
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 17:44:34 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.



    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
    if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Why, it was probably almost regularly illegal to give the gays an >old-fashioned brick-bashing back then. The country has really gone to
    hell since the good ol' days..

    Really sick.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 20:55:27 2022
    On 7/26/2022 6:37 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 17:44:34 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 4:35 PM, amdx wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >>>> Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies. >>>>


    25 years ago my daughter was in kindergarten, it was already everyone
    gets a ribbon, the play grounds were already child proof,
     if you passed out birthday cards, everyone had to get one.


    Why, it was probably almost regularly illegal to give the gays an
    old-fashioned brick-bashing back then. The country has really gone to
    hell since the good ol' days..

    Really sick.


    He's definitely misremembering how the mid 90s were for most kids, if
    he'd said 2005 yeah OK maybe.

    Schools only really started in with zero-tolerance policies and
    child-proof playgrounds and such after everyone went nuts after
    Columbine and 9/11.

    No shortage of Dems and Republicans who want to install ShotSpotter crap
    and 500 cameras in schools or arm teachers, respectively, and make them
    like just like prison camps, lots of money to be made in that business.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jul 26 19:06:26 2022
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Rich S on Tue Jul 26 22:10:52 2022
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
    software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
    to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way better, too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jul 26 19:22:23 2022
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 2:10:59 AM UTC, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X

    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
    to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way better, too.

    Indeed, SW, and actually digital platforms are ginormous.
    I can relate that finding data privacy & security folks is a challenge.

    I agree with John, in a general way (but "blowing things up" without
    further explanation can be misconstrued! - but i take his meaning).
    Those early *but safe* shocks gave me courage to later build
    more dangerous stuff. And with the willingness also
    came the cautiousness.
    Regards, Rich S

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to richsulinengineer@gmail.com on Wed Jul 27 02:12:02 2022
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 19:06:26 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
    <richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    "How many other people have licked that battery today?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jul 28 10:59:10 2022
    On 26/07/2022 23:16, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
    120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals.
    It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his
    '60s and hadn't killed himself...

    It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
    you didn't expect.

    I had to administer first aid to a US service engineer who did the same
    test for live trick on UK mains. The resulting shock threw him across
    the floor turning his face ashen grey. Very much more bite at 240vac.

    Warm sweet tea did the trick but I don't think he will ever test for
    mains with a wet finger ever again. These days even using an old neon
    mains testing screwdriver (as I do) is frowned upon H&S wise.

    The anglepoise lamp in my first student room had a live chassis so that screwdriver has saved me from at least one potentially serious shock. I
    once found a telescope with a live chassis too, fortunately I was stood
    on wooden stepladders with no dew when I noticed the tingle.

    Electric shocks at height up ladders do not go well together.

    Later in research one of my friends was unlucky enough to find himself
    on the wrong end of a live Jesus lead - that caused serious damage to
    his hand from burns before someone could find and unplug the other end.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Thu Jul 28 16:58:18 2022
    Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:> On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote: > > I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 > > volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and > >
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see > > how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.> On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for > 120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the
    same hand) across the terminals. > It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his > '60s and hadn't killed himself... > > It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling > you didn't expect.I use my bare
    fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won't even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had to bring it to my
    friend to unmount it from the car.

    I had a regulator that was connected to a stack of 12v batteries
    fail. It was spectacular, I remember seeing the shadow of the
    person next to me on the wall. The arc current was under the trip
    current of the breaker.
    DC is much different than AC, never crosses zero volt.

    Cheers
    --


    ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Fri Jul 29 23:09:03 2022
    Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.
    On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
    120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals.
    It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his
    '60s and hadn't killed himself...

    It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
    you didn't expect.

    I use my bare fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won't even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had
    to bring it to my friend to unmount it from the car.

    Any what did you gain by just ignoring the gloves you probably had next
    to you? How many volts DC can you let go of? It won't take much leakage on
    a 400 volt connector to ruin your day.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sat Jul 30 11:41:33 2022
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 2:06:29 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    [Amending Myself]
    Or maybe you DO hire them, as a PCB layout
    designer, or Documentation, or anything
    but hands-on circuit work. Someone could be
    a real star but just not comfortable with
    (what they consider to be) "overt" risk.
    Questioning their risk-aversion might limit
    your possible talent pool.
    Some tech companies (used to?) try to find
    the right fit for someone, if he/she had talent.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sun Jul 31 00:09:37 2022
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset  then don't hire
      them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things  :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
    to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way better, too.


    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    Grapgh showing the trend:

    https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%
    2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Sat Jul 30 15:14:46 2022
    On Sunday, 31 July 2022 at 00:09:41 UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>
    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>>>> children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>>
    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way better, too.

    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    Grapgh showing the trend:

    https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%
    2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F
    Grapgh ???

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund on Sat Jul 30 23:37:50 2022
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>>>
    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
    software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9
    volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually
    pays way better, too.


    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is being
    used. I'll confess that with ebooks I don't physically visit the library
    often.

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a
    10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do. CAI, cat-back, overdrive
    pulley, and other minor stuff.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jul 30 23:38:22 2022
    On 7/30/2022 10:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:

    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Verilog, VHDL

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point.

    I think you're ignoring the paradigm shift.

    One could rewrite this:

    "For most of the history of electronics, there was a clear on-ramp for
    this, and an industry that didn't need to sell itself because it was
    inherently cool for geeks. Look at the biographies of the great names
    in electronics, such as Intel co-founder Robert Noyce or the father
    of the information age Claude Shannon, and you find them as teenage
    geeks pulling apart, then rebuilding, then designing radios and guitar
    amplifiers. The post-war generation tore down military surplus gear
    to teach themselves how it worked and mine components to build their
    own inventions."

    replacing references to pulling apart (DISASSEMBLing!) then rebuilding
    hardware (SOFTWARE). How many howto's cover hacking a serial console
    onto an existing COTS product and then poking around inside to enable
    features -- or even reimage the firmware.

    Sadly, "hardware types" are likely clueless as to how these things are
    done. Who do you think comes up with workarounds for the multitude of
    copy protection schemes that have been deployed? Who do you think
    uses the sources to FOSS products to modify (tinker) with them and
    add value/functionality that isn't present in the original offering?

    It's like a sculpter complaining about all the young kids taking up
    PAINTING (for "fear" of a hammer and chisel?). A fair bit of arrogance,
    there ("What *I* know is important; what I don't, isn't!")

    Sadly, "coders" probably take on the greatest risk as their efforts
    won't see success or failure for many months/years (a power supply
    likely blows pretty quick!). And, most have no control over the
    hardware that will host their code.

    [How often do you release a hardware design to manufacturing without
    having the design finished, implemented and tested? How often do you
    DELAY the product release until the same can be said of the software?
    Who takes up the slack, do you redesign the hardware to accommodate
    the FINISHED/tested software?]

    How much TEXT will the application require? DATA? Real time? What
    recourse if you exceed the resources available -- will they reengineer
    the hardware to fit your ACTUAL needs, /ex post factum/?

    What's the maximum stack penetration for THIS task? In what
    circumstances? How does that differ for each of the other tasks?
    Have you configured them as-needed? Or, adopted a one-size-fits-all
    approach? What happens to the code size if I add a single call to
    printf()? How long will XXX take to execute? What sort of latency
    will the user experience between his taking an action and the
    device responding to it -- in a meaningful way?

    If <someone> plugs your 120VAC appliance into 220VAC mains and the
    power supply blows up, catches fire, etc. IT'S THE FAULT OF THE USER!
    But, if the user enters an unusual keystroke sequence and the device
    crashes, IT'S BUGGY SOFTWARE!

    I've got hopes for the maker culture but
    I don't know how many participate.

    I actually think software makes engineering more accessible to folks.
    The problem I see is that it makes *programming* more accessible and
    sidesteps the engineering aspect of software. You *design* software
    just like you design hardware. You don't just sit down and "write code" (that's what CODERS do!)

    Our new library has a nicely equipped
    makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I'll confess that with ebooks I don't physically visit the library often.

    Damn near anyone can afford a (used) laptop. And, with it, you can learn
    a multitude of languages, programming skills, styles, etc. AND ACTUALLY
    CREATE "PRODUCTS"!

    Buying a scope doesn't eliminate the need for a signal generator. Or, freq counter. Or, soldering iron. Or, mantis. Or...

    Where do you put all these things? Maker shops attract folks who can't
    afford the equipment or the *space* for same in their own condos, appartments, dorm rooms, etc. You don't see folks scampering for space to set up a laptop!

    We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
    them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other, pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries, classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
    control their "robots" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms
    against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

    We use this as a teaching platform to introduce programming AND algorithm design to the students. It's not "in a vacuum" as you are competing with another algorithm; if you use a sloppy implementation of the same algorithm
    as your competitor, he will beat you! So, you have to manage time
    resources as well as get the logic correct. We expose different aspects
    of the problem space that the kids might not appreciate ahead of time which could cause naive algorithms to fail.

    So, while learning "how to code (syntax)", and "how to design an algorithm", they also get to see examples of how their algorithms can fail due to an inadequate understanding of the problem space. Challenge your assumptions!

    At the end of the course, the students "load" their algorithms into
    life size (5 ft) robots and watch them compete -- more interesting
    than watching a red dot and a blue dot interacting in a virtual arena
    on a laptop screen!

    Of course, we could let each kid build a robot. But, that takes a
    lot of resources, likely takes a lot of SPACE, probably can't be
    done in the student's *home*, etc. And, in relative terms, they'll
    likely not learn as much from that physical effort than from the
    intellectual effort of building an *algorithm*.

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a 10 year
    old Civic, there isn't much he can do. CAI, cat-back, overdrive pulley, and other minor stuff.

    Exactly. I'd be thrilled to have just complete schematics for a modern
    car's ECUs. How much can I push performance/efficiency by *micromanaging*
    the combustion cycle? What can I learn from watching the spark events?

    I've had discussions with a friend (who's into the pro-side of NASCAR)
    about how you could tweek the vehicle's performance "intelligently"
    (beyond "managing airflow") to give the driver one extra tool on
    the track (let his mind do the high-level tradeoffs while the ECU does
    the micromanagement under his direction).

    Obviously, car manufacturers target an "average" consumer with their
    designs. Imagine working WITH the *particular* consumer...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 31 02:43:23 2022
    On 07/31/2022 12:38 AM, Don Y wrote:
    We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
    them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other, pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries, classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
    control their "robots" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

    How much room does a robot car chassis take up?

    https://www.amazon.com/MakerFocus-Chassis-MEGA2560-MEGA1280-Microcontroller/dp/B01LYZDP9U/

    It comes with 4 independent motors? What type motors are they? Can you
    control them with a L298N H-bridge? How many? Do you want to control
    each wheel separately or pair them? What effect does that have on maneuverability? Do you want to go with PWM or a simple bang-bang? Would
    an Arduino be sufficient for the task? Does it have sufficient i/o
    capacity for other sensors? Or possibly a RPi? Or maybe multiple
    Arduinos, each handling a specific task. If so, how will they communicate?

    How are you going to communicate? Will one of the 433 Mhz transceivers
    work? Does it have enough range for the purpose? Enough data rate or do
    you want to go for one of the 2.4 Ghz versions? What sort of
    communication protocol are you going to use between the two?

    Are you going autonomous or do you want to control it with a joy stick?
    If you're going with a xy joystick module, how do you handle the analog
    input?

    And so forth and so on. Something like that introduces both software and
    design decisions. There is a lot more involved than loading an algorithm
    into a 5' tall robot that magically appears.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jul 31 03:31:12 2022
    On 7/31/2022 1:43 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:38 AM, Don Y wrote:
    We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
    them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other, >> pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries,
    classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
    control their "robots" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms
    against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their >> strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

    How much room does a robot car chassis take up?

    https://www.amazon.com/MakerFocus-Chassis-MEGA2560-MEGA1280-Microcontroller/dp/B01LYZDP9U/

    It comes with 4 independent motors? What type motors are they? Can you control
    them with a L298N H-bridge? How many? Do you want to control each wheel separately or pair them? What effect does that have on maneuverability? Do you
    want to go with PWM or a simple bang-bang? Would an Arduino be sufficient for the task? Does it have sufficient i/o capacity for other sensors? Or possibly a
    RPi? Or maybe multiple Arduinos, each handling a specific task. If so, how will
    they communicate?

    How are you going to communicate? Will one of the 433 Mhz transceivers work? Does it have enough range for the purpose? Enough data rate or do you want to go for one of the 2.4 Ghz versions? What sort of communication protocol are you
    going to use between the two?

    There is no communication. The student plugs his thumb drive into the robot and steps back. He has no need to understand how the mechanisms in the
    robot work; rather, that they nominally respond as the little red dot on the LCD screen responded to his algorithm's commands.

    The "5 ft robot" is there simply to make a spectacle out of the (end of
    course) tournament. You use that to drum up excitement (and community support) for the effort. You rely on students WANTING to participate (because it is
    an "off hours" activity... they give up some of their spare time OUT of school in order to take on this activity). You want to ENCOURAGE students to
    think of this (STEM) as fun/exciting, not just "yet another math test".

    You want to have something that a local news station can cover to help solicit donations from prominent community leaders/groups (because you aren't CHARGING the students to participate as that would just be a deterrent).

    Are you going autonomous or do you want to control it with a joy stick? If you're going with a xy joystick module, how do you handle the analog input?

    The whole point is to test *algorithms*, not "cognitive skills of 'operators'". So, you want to let the algorithm compete without any additional input
    from the student.

    There are groups that design robots for competition. *A* group designs
    (and fabricates) *a* robot. And, operates it in the arena (to meet some particular set of tasks). These groups rely heavily on the "educator"
    for guidance in the design and fabrication. And, on having access to
    a "shop" with sufficient tools to actually construct the robot.

    Yay *team*!

    But, the contributions and learning for each individual is hard to
    codify. How do you *measure* the impact you've had on the students
    in the program? How do you correlate their performance in the
    program with any changes in their performance in the "general
    curriculum"?

    [You have to be able to MEASURE the impact of your program in order
    to be able to justify the expense -- to the grantor or, ultimately,
    to the school district. Just because it's "fun" doesn't mean it
    is worthy of dollars!]

    And so forth and so on. Something like that introduces both software and design
    decisions. There is a lot more involved than loading an algorithm into a 5' tall robot that magically appears.

    The thumb drive is the sole means of exchanging information between
    "host systems". E.g., if you go visit your friend and want to try
    your latest robot algorithm against his, you carry your thumb drive
    to his house (and plug it -- and his -- into your laptop or his laptop).

    [We don't want the laptops to be "general purpose laptops". We keep
    them locked down so they only have value as "robot simulation platforms".
    This cuts the cost of supporting them down (no risk of malware, disks
    being erased, additional software installed, etc.). It's the equivalent
    of an interactive *book* -- it serves ONE purpose.]

    It is a logical extension (in the minds of the students) to plug the
    thumb drive into the "robot controller" located in the base of the
    robot -- and expect the commands to control the motors instead of
    the "X,Y display cursor".

    For students with no prior coding experience, burdening them with all
    these ancillary engineering issues just makes it intimidating.

    "First year" students just learn enough about writing code to navigate
    a (*randomly* generated) maze. This is an activity that they can
    personally relate to -- even if just dragging a pencil through a
    print copy of a maze ("keep the wall on the left of your pencil and
    just keep moving; notice the path it traverses?").

    This also takes the "stress" of a one-on-one competition out of the
    equation -- you just TIME their performance (assuming they are able to
    complete the maze as you would obviously include structures that defeat/complicate common algorithms).

    "Second year" students learn to interact with a *dynamic* environment
    (a maze is static) -- "where is my opponent? why is he shooting at me?
    how should I respond?"

    "Third year" students have a finer-grained set of "opcodes" that they
    can execute so have more control over how they spend resources. E.g., computing the distance and angle to an opponent takes longer than
    moving out of the way -- so, an opponent can leverage that liability
    on your part to move out of the way before you can get a fix on him.
    MEMORY gives you some compensating leverage as you can make educated
    guesses as to where he MIGHT have moved, given that making a turn
    (in place) costs more than moving forward.

    They also deal with non-ideal mechanisms. E.g., why didn't the
    robot move EXACTLY one unit to the west? How do we compensate
    for this? How do we determine the NEED for compensation?

    [earlier classes relied on the "robot operating system" and
    "arena dynamics" to ensure "MOVE WEST 1" gave exactly one
    unit of displacement so the students don't have to address
    those real-world issues. We always deal with discrete time
    operations -- my turn, your turn -- instead of a continuous
    process. This helps minimize any effects of physical robot
    performance from biasing the results (if your mechanism is
    slower, then it will just take a little bit longer for your
    robot to complete its move -- but your opponent won't be
    able to benefit from this "deficiency")]

    If there is some sign of "success" (increased interest in STEM,
    improved academic performance, increased DEMAND for the program,
    etc.) then there is a chance for followup grants (or public
    funding) to perpetuate/enhance/expand the program.

    Our goal isn't to teach them any specific "language" (ROBOL?).
    but, rather, to get them thinking analytically about the sorts
    of problems that they might encounter if they pursued a career
    in STEM (how do you determine the range to an adversary? how
    do you determine the proper angle of elevation of gun turret
    to target that adversary? how...)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to klauskvik@hotmail.com on Sun Jul 31 08:09:16 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 00:09:37 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>>>
    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
    software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
    to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way
    better, too.


    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    Grapgh showing the trend:

    https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%
    2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F


    Nice links. I've noticed that increasing trend, kids with ee degrees
    who know basically nothing about electricity, except they are afraid
    of it.

    So a good product line would have difficult analog i/o circuits,
    usuallly backed up with digital signal processing in an FPGA an/or a
    uP. SOC chips do both.

    The people who architect the digital parts of a product still need to understand signals-and-systems and control theory, even if they don't
    code it themselves.

    A good product needs good packaging and thermals and a clean human
    interface too, more stuff the kids can't do.

    I took two semisters of thermo in college, some time ago, and it was
    all about enthalopy and steam tables and such nonsense. No discussion
    about cooling electronics.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sun Jul 31 08:29:22 2022
    On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 23:38:22 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/30/2022 10:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:

    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Verilog, VHDL

    Still typing, not drawing.




    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point.

    I think you're ignoring the paradigm shift.

    One could rewrite this:

    "For most of the history of electronics, there was a clear on-ramp for
    this, and an industry that didn't need to sell itself because it was
    inherently cool for geeks. Look at the biographies of the great names
    in electronics, such as Intel co-founder Robert Noyce or the father
    of the information age Claude Shannon, and you find them as teenage
    geeks pulling apart, then rebuilding, then designing radios and guitar
    amplifiers. The post-war generation tore down military surplus gear
    to teach themselves how it worked and mine components to build their
    own inventions."

    replacing references to pulling apart (DISASSEMBLing!) then rebuilding >hardware (SOFTWARE). How many howto's cover hacking a serial console
    onto an existing COTS product and then poking around inside to enable >features -- or even reimage the firmware.

    Sadly, "hardware types" are likely clueless as to how these things are
    done. Who do you think comes up with workarounds for the multitude of
    copy protection schemes that have been deployed? Who do you think
    uses the sources to FOSS products to modify (tinker) with them and
    add value/functionality that isn't present in the original offering?

    It's like a sculpter complaining about all the young kids taking up
    PAINTING (for "fear" of a hammer and chisel?). A fair bit of arrogance, >there ("What *I* know is important; what I don't, isn't!")

    Sadly, "coders" probably take on the greatest risk as their efforts
    won't see success or failure for many months/years (a power supply
    likely blows pretty quick!). And, most have no control over the
    hardware that will host their code.

    [How often do you release a hardware design to manufacturing without
    having the design finished, implemented and tested?

    Never. Released products are supposed to work. First time.



    How often do you
    DELAY the product release until the same can be said of the software?
    Who takes up the slack, do you redesign the hardware to accommodate
    the FINISHED/tested software?]

    Design the hardware and software together. Of course, the software is
    finished last, but by weeks, not years.




    How much TEXT will the application require? DATA? Real time? What
    recourse if you exceed the resources available -- will they reengineer
    the hardware to fit your ACTUAL needs, /ex post factum/?

    What's the maximum stack penetration for THIS task? In what
    circumstances? How does that differ for each of the other tasks?
    Have you configured them as-needed? Or, adopted a one-size-fits-all >approach? What happens to the code size if I add a single call to
    printf()? How long will XXX take to execute? What sort of latency
    will the user experience between his taking an action and the
    device responding to it -- in a meaningful way?

    If <someone> plugs your 120VAC appliance into 220VAC mains and the
    power supply blows up, catches fire, etc. IT'S THE FAULT OF THE USER!
    But, if the user enters an unusual keystroke sequence and the device
    crashes, IT'S BUGGY SOFTWARE!

    I've got hopes for the maker culture but
    I don't know how many participate.

    A lot of maker stuff is robotics, which starts with an Arduino or
    something so is mostly a coding project.




    I actually think software makes engineering more accessible to folks.
    The problem I see is that it makes *programming* more accessible and >sidesteps the engineering aspect of software. You *design* software
    just like you design hardware. You don't just sit down and "write code" >(that's what CODERS do!)

    Our new library has a nicely equipped
    makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser cutters and so forth. I
    should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I'll confess that with
    ebooks I don't physically visit the library often.

    Damn near anyone can afford a (used) laptop. And, with it, you can learn
    a multitude of languages, programming skills, styles, etc. AND ACTUALLY >CREATE "PRODUCTS"!

    Buying a scope doesn't eliminate the need for a signal generator. Or, freq >counter. Or, soldering iron. Or, mantis. Or...

    Nowadays one can set up a decent electronics bench for way under
    $1000. A good scope used to cost more than a Chevrolet.




    Where do you put all these things? Maker shops attract folks who can't >afford the equipment or the *space* for same in their own condos, appartments, >dorm rooms, etc. You don't see folks scampering for space to set up a laptop!

    We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
    them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other, >pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries, >classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
    control their "robots" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms >against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their >strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

    We use this as a teaching platform to introduce programming AND algorithm >design to the students. It's not "in a vacuum" as you are competing with >another algorithm; if you use a sloppy implementation of the same algorithm >as your competitor, he will beat you! So, you have to manage time
    resources as well as get the logic correct. We expose different aspects
    of the problem space that the kids might not appreciate ahead of time which >could cause naive algorithms to fail.

    Few coders know what a state machine is. They write hairballs, like
    people used to design asynchronous logic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 31 12:27:10 2022
    On 07/31/2022 04:31 AM, Don Y wrote:
    If there is some sign of "success" (increased interest in STEM,
    improved academic performance, increased DEMAND for the program,
    etc.) then there is a chance for followup grants (or public
    funding) to perpetuate/enhance/expand the program.

    Perhaps. What age group is this aimed at? I still think a kid that
    cobbled together a semi-autonomous robot/drone to annoy the family cat
    would have an edge if (s)he showed up at Boston Dynamics someday looking
    for a job. Extra points for a camera feed into FPV googles.

    Somebody has to understand the Nuts & Volts aspects of real world
    mechanisms and you won't get there with programming alone. Perhaps I'm nostalgic. The first half of my career involved making real world stuff
    happen. The second half has mostly been pixel pushing with the exception
    of the occasional need to read from a GPS receiver stream to determine
    where the ambulance or firetruck is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 12:35:10 2022
    On 07/31/2022 09:09 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Nice links. I've noticed that increasing trend, kids with ee degrees
    who know basically nothing about electricity, except they are afraid
    of it.

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jul 31 11:51:16 2022
    On 7/31/2022 11:27 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 04:31 AM, Don Y wrote:
    If there is some sign of "success" (increased interest in STEM,
    improved academic performance, increased DEMAND for the program,
    etc.) then there is a chance for followup grants (or public
    funding) to perpetuate/enhance/expand the program.

    Perhaps. What age group is this aimed at? I still think a kid that cobbled together a semi-autonomous robot/drone to annoy the family cat would have an edge if (s)he showed up at Boston Dynamics someday looking for a job. Extra points for a camera feed into FPV googles.

    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being
    that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to choose a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    Somebody has to understand the Nuts & Volts aspects of real world mechanisms and you won't get there with programming alone.

    I'm building the mechanisms, compilers, virtual arena, curriculum, etc. As well as setting up mechanisms to "mass produce" the "per student" items (only need a couple of "5 ft robots" as they are only used in the tournaments).

    If a *real*, supported program arises from these efforts, it will acquire administrative bloat, as expected. But, my involvement will be over long before that (I'm not fond of "long term relationships" with projects :> )

    Perhaps I'm nostalgic. The
    first half of my career involved making real world stuff happen. The second half has mostly been pixel pushing with the exception of the occasional need to
    read from a GPS receiver stream to determine where the ambulance or firetruck is.

    For me, it has been similar. Deeply embedded devices throughout. But,
    slowly moving up the complexity (cost) scale and into higher volume devices
    (I currently price in 100K quantities).

    Early designs ran on 4 and 8 bit hardware with scores of BYTES of RAM available, cycle times on the order of a microsecond or slower. Presently,
    a couple hundred 64b quad core GHz processors (Cortex A53) each with half
    a gig of RAM, internetworked to work as a composite unit.

    [This will likely change before I finish all of the software; why *settle* on hardware before the software is done? Hardware is considerably cheaper than software so why skimp?!]

    E.g., my current RTOS does things that "big machines" can't do -- and at bargain basement prices! But, is still "appliance" oriented (though the appliances are now "system components" instead of dumb little islands).
    No "graphic workstation" aspect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 12:42:55 2022
    On 07/31/2022 09:29 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    A lot of maker stuff is robotics, which starts with an Arduino or
    something so is mostly a coding project.



    True, but it still has a link to the real world, even if it's only
    adapting ArduPilot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ralph Mowery@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 31 15:58:25 2022
    In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 31 13:02:38 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 12:42:55 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/31/2022 09:29 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    A lot of maker stuff is robotics, which starts with an Arduino or
    something so is mostly a coding project.



    True, but it still has a link to the real world, even if it's only
    adapting ArduPilot.

    But seldom real electronic design. Maybe copy a relay driver or
    something.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Ralph Mowery on Sun Jul 31 13:09:50 2022
    On 7/31/2022 12:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff
    happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.

    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    Many people are afraid of what they don't know. They'd prefer
    to do the same thing over and over again (possibly even becoming
    expert at it) than to RISK trying something new. (OhMiGosh!
    I may *fail*!! Or, *look* inept!)

    I've seen businesses crippled by "sticks-in-the-mud" in positions
    of power/influence who are dead set on letting the company move away
    from the things *they* know ("knew" being a better word for it!).
    By the time they are forced out of those positions, the firm
    is often sadly behind in a market that they may have previously
    *led*! And, now has a tougher battle to prove to their market
    that they can, once again, be relevant!

    Personally, I have no desire to "dig another hole" -- I learned
    most of what I'm going to learn about "digging holes" from the
    first one, thankyouverymuch! Let's try something different, now...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon S Aysdie@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sun Jul 31 13:58:38 2022
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.

    PUT YOUR MASK ON, JOHN!!!!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to rmowery42@charter.net on Sun Jul 31 13:18:18 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff
    happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    Transistors, then ICs, then uPs, were game changers. What's the next
    one?

    Programmable analog chips keep getting invented and keep dying. That's interesting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 31 13:32:54 2022
    søndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the >vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My >first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.
    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after
    designing it all with free tools

    that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to langwadt@fonz.dk on Sun Jul 31 14:28:59 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    sndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >> >> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >> >> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.
    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs >professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after
    designing it all with free tools

    that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago

    Yes. I wonder how many do.

    My mom set up a revolving credit line with Allied Electronics when I
    was a kid. I could order anything, with a modest monthly average,
    maybe $15 I recall.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to gwhite@ti.com on Sun Jul 31 14:32:42 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT), Simon S Aysdie
    <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.

    PUT YOUR MASK ON, JOHN!!!!!

    I only masked for a couple of very good restaurants, which was silly
    because as soon as they served water everyone took their masks off.

    Some people are still masking, even outdoors. I guess they will for
    the rest of their lives.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 09:02:36 2022
    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:
    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything.

    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use
    a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want
    to customize drones.

    Sad really.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Ralph Mowery on Sun Jul 31 17:04:48 2022
    On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 5:58:34 AM UTC+10, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they were afraid of them.



    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    The problem isn't the age difference, but the attitude difference. I'm 79, and I happily use my computer to fill out my tax information.

    My father wouldn't have a computer in the house, but as soon as he died, I got my mother to buy one. It took her a while to get to use it. For about a year my nephews - her grandchildren - pulled my e-mails off her computer every week and typed in her
    responses, but she watched them do and could eventually do it for herself and compose her own replies, and we swapped e-mails every day for about a decade until senile dementia hit her.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Ralph Mowery on Sun Jul 31 18:12:03 2022
    On 07/31/2022 01:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff
    happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.


    It's not only 10 years. A friend that I went to high school and college
    with went on to get his doctorate. He'd been on a work/study program
    with IBM and immediately went to work for them at their Vermont
    semiconductor operation. When I visited him in the '80s he had just
    bought a PCjr. and was trying to figure out what to do with it. Actually
    just buying a PCjr was indicative of cluelessness.

    My brother was quite a bit older than I and was an aeronautical engineer
    who'd worked for GE, Boeing, and Thiokol retiring as a VP. He had no
    interest in computers whatsoever. His wife had one that was mainly used
    to look up recipes and email her children.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ralph Mowery@21:1/5 to compose her own on Sun Jul 31 20:28:08 2022
    In article <4e05ee3b-9e69-4f3d-8fa6-371be61fcf7bn@googlegroups.com>, bill.sloman@ieee.org says...

    The problem isn't the age difference, but the attitude difference. I'm 79, and I happily use my computer to fill out my tax information.

    My father wouldn't have a computer in the house, but as soon as he died, I got my mother to buy one. It took her a while to get to use it. For about a year my nephews - her grandchildren - pulled my e-mails off her computer every week and typed in her
    responses, but she watched them do and could eventually do it for herself and compose her own replies, and we swapped e-mails every day for about a decade until senile dementia hit her.




    Yes, I do have to agree with that. Mostly attitude.Just seems that many
    older people are too set in their ways. We also have a friend that is
    80 and those two grew up as friends. The other was a math high school
    teacher and uses his computers all the time.

    Sort of like my mother. She was an execellent cook especially with
    cakes and cookies. Took her many years after most people had one to get
    a microwave and a while before she would use it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Sun Jul 31 18:21:48 2022
    On 07/31/2022 02:32 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    søndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>> were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.
    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after
    designing it all with free tools

    that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago


    Hell yeah! If I never see another bottle of ferric chloride it will be
    too soon. That whole process with silkscreens and photo emulsion will
    come in handy if I want to go into the Christmas card business.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 31 18:15:51 2022
    On 07/31/2022 02:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/31/2022 12:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.

    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    Many people are afraid of what they don't know. They'd prefer
    to do the same thing over and over again (possibly even becoming
    expert at it) than to RISK trying something new. (OhMiGosh!
    I may *fail*!! Or, *look* inept!)

    Sort of like the Public Service engineers I knew through the IEEE. For
    my money when you've seen one HV transmission line you've seen them all
    but they were happy with the same old same old.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 18:33:46 2022
    On 07/31/2022 03:28 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    sndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was >>>>> almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>>> were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >>>> and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax >>>> by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now >>>> I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.
    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs
    professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after
    designing it all with free tools

    that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago

    Yes. I wonder how many do.

    My mom set up a revolving credit line with Allied Electronics when I
    was a kid. I could order anything, with a modest monthly average,
    maybe $15 I recall.


    I sort of had a credit line with Les Couch... He might have been one of
    the original electronic recyclers. His technique was a little crude;
    heat a circuit board over a barbecue grill until the solder flowed, turn
    it over, and slam it on the table to see what fell out. The salvage went
    into labeled but uncatalogued Mason jars stored on shelves in the cellar.

    At one time I wanted to build a CDI. I needed some ferrite toroids that
    didn't exactly grow on trees. With the help of a cousin I tracked down
    one on the many IBM spinoff cottage industries in Kingston that handled
    ferrite stuff. I drove down, found the guy working out of his garage,
    and explained what I wanted. Actually selling them would have been a
    mountain of paperwork so he gave me a bag of 'samples' and wished me luck.

    I hate to admit it but RatShack was a major source of components. It got
    a little better when Tandy bought Allied.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jul 31 17:35:48 2022
    On 7/31/2022 5:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 02:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/31/2022 12:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>> were afraid of them.

    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >>> and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    Many people are afraid of what they don't know. They'd prefer
    to do the same thing over and over again (possibly even becoming
    expert at it) than to RISK trying something new. (OhMiGosh!
    I may *fail*!! Or, *look* inept!)

    Sort of like the Public Service engineers I knew through the IEEE. For my money
    when you've seen one HV transmission line you've seen them all but they were happy with the same old same old.

    I suspect it is a reflection on the level of risk-taking, self-confidence
    or *need* for perceived "security".

    I noticed many of the engineers working at Charles Stark Raving were
    sad sacks -- they had reasonable job security and decent pay... but,
    virtually no variety/challenge in their work. Their chances of trying something "new" or radically unconventional were exactly *zero*!

    Similarly for the folks who work at the local DoD subcontractor. They've
    gotta know that their technical skills are not very portable (nor likely "current" given the military's conservativism). What do you do when
    you've got 10, 20, 40 years of that behind you? (Ans: look forward to
    even more of it ahead!)

    I always want something that lies just beyond my "100% confident of
    success" level of complexity/novelty... "Let's make it INTERESTING!"
    It makes the resulting success all the more savory!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 31 18:37:12 2022
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the
    bulk stumble along.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 18:39:49 2022
    On 07/31/2022 03:32 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT), Simon S Aysdie
    <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max.
    Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.

    PUT YOUR MASK ON, JOHN!!!!!

    I only masked for a couple of very good restaurants, which was silly
    because as soon as they served water everyone took their masks off.

    Some people are still masking, even outdoors. I guess they will for
    the rest of their lives.


    I went to an Irish festival in the park yesterday and there were only a
    few maskers. Some of them lost the masks as the day went on. The 100
    degree weather might have been a factor. I can't imagine...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jul 31 17:43:10 2022
    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being
    that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to
    choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to >> that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Sun Jul 31 18:43:57 2022
    On 07/31/2022 05:02 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:
    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything.

    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use
    a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want
    to customize drones.

    Sad really.

    I've gotten the impression from Make Magazine that many are Gen
    Whatever, not kids.

    It's probably like the old R/C magazines with detailed plans for models constructed from balsa and tissue. I think the ratio of magazines sold
    versus models constructed would be high.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sun Jul 31 19:25:44 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start >>> their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to >>> that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk >> stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 31 19:34:18 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:33:46 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/31/2022 03:28 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
    <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    sndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was >>>>>> almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>>>> were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72 >>>>> and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree >>>>> and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the >>>>> vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax >>>>> by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My >>>>> first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now >>>>> I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.
    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs >>> professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after
    designing it all with free tools

    that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago

    Yes. I wonder how many do.

    My mom set up a revolving credit line with Allied Electronics when I
    was a kid. I could order anything, with a modest monthly average,
    maybe $15 I recall.


    I sort of had a credit line with Les Couch... He might have been one of
    the original electronic recyclers. His technique was a little crude;
    heat a circuit board over a barbecue grill until the solder flowed, turn
    it over, and slam it on the table to see what fell out. The salvage went
    into labeled but uncatalogued Mason jars stored on shelves in the cellar.

    At one time I wanted to build a CDI. I needed some ferrite toroids that >didn't exactly grow on trees. With the help of a cousin I tracked down
    one on the many IBM spinoff cottage industries in Kingston that handled >ferrite stuff. I drove down, found the guy working out of his garage,
    and explained what I wanted. Actually selling them would have been a
    mountain of paperwork so he gave me a bag of 'samples' and wished me luck.

    I hate to admit it but RatShack was a major source of components. It got
    a little better when Tandy bought Allied.

    Ratshack used to have a lot of components, but I guess the world
    passed them by.

    We called them RusskyShack because they all seemed to be run by
    Russians. Sort of like Cambodians and donuts or Indians and motels.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 31 19:29:26 2022
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:02:36 +1000, Clifford Heath <no_spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:
    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves >dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything.

    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use
    a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want
    to customize drones.

    Sad really.


    A manual mill is better to learn on. You can feel the forces.

    We donated our old milling machine to a local maker shop. Now we have
    a classic Bridgeport and a new Tormach.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 31 19:39:39 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:39:49 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/31/2022 03:32 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT), Simon S Aysdie
    <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >>>> Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies.

    PUT YOUR MASK ON, JOHN!!!!!

    I only masked for a couple of very good restaurants, which was silly
    because as soon as they served water everyone took their masks off.

    Some people are still masking, even outdoors. I guess they will for
    the rest of their lives.


    I went to an Irish festival in the park yesterday and there were only a
    few maskers. Some of them lost the masks as the day went on. The 100
    degree weather might have been a factor. I can't imagine...

    Masking is rare now here in San Francisco. People got bored with covid
    and all the news now is monkeypox.

    I know how to stop the monkey pox epidemic in a week.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Aug 1 13:31:24 2022
    On 1/8/22 12:29, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:02:36 +1000, Clifford Heath <no_spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:
    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >>>
    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves
    dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything. >>
    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use
    a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want
    to customize drones.

    Sad really.


    A manual mill is better to learn on. You can feel the forces.

    A plain bastard file or a hacksaw is better still. If you don't
    understand cutting, you have no business using a cutting machine, let
    alone an automated one.

    When my uncle (retired watchmaker) started his apprenticeship in the
    1950s, one of the first tasks was to cut two rough 2" cubes, and using
    only files and scrapers, to make them into identical cubes such that any
    pair of faces would align perfectly on all four edges, and be flat
    enough that you could pick up the other block by stiction alone. That
    took four months of work.

    Without understanding the processes that can turn two rough blocks of
    mild steel into perfectly cubic gauge blocks, the rest of the
    apprenticeship would have been wasted. As are the efforts of most `makers`.

    CH

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 31 21:52:07 2022
    On 07/31/2022 06:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking
    being
    that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they
    start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum --
    prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the
    bulk stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I entered college at
    16. Today I'd go for cognitive science but neither that or computer
    science existed at the time. FORTRAN IV and punchcards didn't light my
    fire either. It was years later when I could wirewrap a 8080 board on
    the kitchen table and make it do tricks that I started easing into software.

    I never did really have a plan. Shit happened and I adapted. The closest
    I came to a plan was an attempt to remain in the dying US machine tool business.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 21:41:35 2022
    On 07/31/2022 08:34 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Ratshack used to have a lot of components, but I guess the world
    passed them by.

    We called them RusskyShack because they all seemed to be run by
    Russians. Sort of like Cambodians and donuts or Indians and motels.

    I think the component side suffered from a lack of demand and their
    attempt to get into consumer goods never gelled. When the one here went
    out I picked up some Arduino related stuff cheap.

    My favorite was a Radio Shack in a small Maine town. It was in the era
    when Tandy was almost respectable in the business world and they were
    sourcing many of the systems for local businesses.

    It was also one stop shopping. You could pick up a .357, ammunition, a
    bottle of booze, cigs, your mail, and some essential grocery items.

    There was one in Ajo AZ that doubled as a Sears catalog outlet and did a
    brisk business in appliances headed south of the border. The owner also
    played a guitar so there were music odds and ends. Fortunately Tony, the
    owner, also had the town laundromat in his holdings. The last time I was
    there he still had some NOS RadioShack components.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 21:56:52 2022
    On 07/31/2022 08:25 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start >>>> their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk >>> stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.


    My family pushed that but I wasn't so sure. It's a first generation to
    go to college thing. Blue collar workers in manufacturing plants see the engineers as top dogs. It takes a couple of generations before doctors, lawyers, architects, and so forth become options let alone gender
    studies and English literature.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 22:10:57 2022
    On 07/31/2022 08:29 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We donated our old milling machine to a local maker shop. Now we have
    a classic Bridgeport and a new Tormach.

    J-head?

    http://obscurevermont.com/the-jones-and-lamson-factory/

    That's specifically about Jones and Lamsom but it's sad to have watched
    the Connecticut Valley go from the machine tool capitol of the world to
    a place where the major good is meth in my lifetime.

    China is taking the heat currently but the us has been pissing it all
    away for 50 years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Sun Jul 31 20:57:05 2022
    On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 1:31:34 PM UTC+10, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 1/8/22 12:29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:02:36 +1000, Clifford Heath <no_...@please.net> wrote:

    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: >>>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >>>
    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves
    dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything.

    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use >> a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want >> to customize drones.

    Sad really.


    A manual mill is better to learn on. You can feel the forces.
    A plain bastard file or a hacksaw is better still. If you don't
    understand cutting, you have no business using a cutting machine, let
    alone an automated one.

    When my uncle (retired watchmaker) started his apprenticeship in the
    1950s, one of the first tasks was to cut two rough 2" cubes, and using
    only files and scrapers, to make them into identical cubes such that any pair of faces would align perfectly on all four edges, and be flat
    enough that you could pick up the other block by stiction alone. That
    took four months of work.

    Without understanding the processes that can turn two rough blocks of
    mild steel into perfectly cubic gauge blocks, the rest of the
    apprenticeship would have been wasted. As are the efforts of most `makers`.

    Johansson blocks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block

    Never did it, but when I was a graduate student, I told my supervisor that I was going to need two circular optical window in UV-transparent silica glass.

    So he gave me a thin slab of cast silica, and I spent a a couple of weeks cutting out two circular disks (copper wire stretched in a hacksaw frame loaded with carborundum - silicon carbide - paste) then polishing them flat. They didn't end up optically
    flat, but rather very slightly domed, which I could have fixed but didn't need to.

    I though it was a complete waste of time, but knew how apprentice-ships worked. The electronics came later.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Jul 31 21:59:21 2022
    On 07/31/2022 08:39 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:39:49 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/31/2022 03:32 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:58:38 -0700 (PDT), Simon S Aysdie
    <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:44:08 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
    children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see >>>>> how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>>>
    People are terrified of abs max. That's an interesting topic, abs max. >>>>> Especially for RF parts.

    Half of young things are afraid to ride Lyft!

    I wonder if all this social media and constant texting creates fear
    circles, tribes of wusses, just as it aggregates political tendencies. >>>>
    PUT YOUR MASK ON, JOHN!!!!!

    I only masked for a couple of very good restaurants, which was silly
    because as soon as they served water everyone took their masks off.

    Some people are still masking, even outdoors. I guess they will for
    the rest of their lives.


    I went to an Irish festival in the park yesterday and there were only a
    few maskers. Some of them lost the masks as the day went on. The 100
    degree weather might have been a factor. I can't imagine...

    Masking is rare now here in San Francisco. People got bored with covid
    and all the news now is monkeypox.

    I know how to stop the monkey pox epidemic in a week.


    Would it be insensitive to predict a monkeypox spike in SF after the
    Dore Alley event?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Mon Aug 1 00:05:22 2022
    On 07/31/2022 09:31 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 1/8/22 12:29, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:02:36 +1000, Clifford Heath <no_spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: >>>>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >>>>>

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves
    dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them
    anything.

    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use >>> a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want >>> to customize drones.

    Sad really.


    A manual mill is better to learn on. You can feel the forces.

    A plain bastard file or a hacksaw is better still. If you don't
    understand cutting, you have no business using a cutting machine, let
    alone an automated one.

    When my uncle (retired watchmaker) started his apprenticeship in the
    1950s, one of the first tasks was to cut two rough 2" cubes, and using
    only files and scrapers, to make them into identical cubes such that any
    pair of faces would align perfectly on all four edges, and be flat
    enough that you could pick up the other block by stiction alone. That
    took four months of work.

    Making Jo blocks without lapping would be difficult. Making a metal
    lathe with hand tools is another challenge. Given a lathe you can make
    almost anything including a better lathe.

    If you're hardcore:

    http://gingerybooks.com/

    Gingery's series started with bootstrapping your way up by building a
    simple foundry for either aluminum or zamac. Zamac has a much lower
    melting point and gives you something to do with those otherwise useless pennies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 01:51:04 2022
    On 7/31/2022 8:52 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 06:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking
    being
    that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they
    start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum --
    prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the
    bulk stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I entered college at 16.

    I'd already been accepted at another university; I was doing medical research with a professor, there, and had plans to continue along that path.

    I'd applied to MIT on a whim -- a fellow student had an extra application so
    I filled it out sitting in Fysics class that day.

    I was mailing my acceptance letter to the first school the day the acceptance from MIT arrived. Once my folks saw that, the decision was effectively out
    of my hands. <frown> I was a bit annoyed but, what can you do?

    You have to "declare" a "course" (their name for a "major") in your
    freshman year. Prior to that, everyone is taking the standard engineering
    fare of physics, calculus, difeqs, etc. But, at year 2, you need to have focused on the requirements established for your "course".

    I wanted to design computers (hardware). The EE department had three courses:
    6.1 -- traditional EE
    6.2 -- something like "bioelectronic engineering"? no idea, no one took it!
    6.3 -- computer science
    There is a core set of classwork / curriculum for all EE's (just like there
    is a core set of classwork for any student, there) but specialized courses geared towards the specific course within that department. So, every EE got
    a smattering of programming, analog design, digital design, etc. But,
    the balance shifted based on which of the three courses you elected.

    OBVIOUSLY, the 6.3 tract would teach me how to design computers, right?

    <frown> After a year, I realized much of what I was taking was regarding software engineering; AI, compiler/language design, advanced algorithms, probabilistic systems analysis, etc. So, scurried to find suitable specific courses that focused more on hardware -- digital labs, etc.

    I suspect I ended up with the better education than if I'd gone the 6.1
    route (or, the mystery that was 6.2). Definitely more and better job prospects. The regular EE's could "program" but didn't know shit about designing clever algorithms, human interface issues, etc. Ask them to build
    an AI and they'd look at you askance. Or, select a programming language
    or OS environment under which to develop ("You mean there's more than Windows?")

    And, there's a very small -- shrinking -- market for designing processors.
    I caught the tail end of that and managed to get some satisfaction with
    the few that I designed. But, now, it's more effective to build a
    virtual processor, in software, than to actually fabricate one in hardware!

    I am excited to be able to FINALLY use some of the fancier technologies that
    I was taught decades back in a real product. "Multitasking" was a big yawn (doing that in products back in the late 70's -- without ANY hardware resources to support it!). Ditto for RT. But, to design a VMM system, build AI's, hot-swap software (and hardware) components, cyptography, DSM, robust security, human factors engineering, capabilities based ACL, etc. in a *big* way is something most designs -- let alone EMBEDDED designs -- can't even think about!

    It's nice to see my education was prescient and not obsolete the day the degree was awarded! (pity the folks taught about *today's* technology and wonder how they'll forever be playing catch-up)

    Today I'd go for cognitive science but neither that or computer science existed
    at the time. FORTRAN IV and punchcards didn't light my fire either. It was

    I have a fond memory of punch cards. My first courses used batch submitted Hollerith cards for job submission. "Shit! ABENDed on a bad JCL card?"

    And, they were excellent "note paper"! <grin>

    But, it's much more rewarding to see something DO something as a result of the instructions you've encoded -- not just Blinkenlites.

    years later when I could wirewrap a 8080 board on the kitchen table and make it
    do tricks that I started easing into software.

    Almost every one of my software projects ran on hardware that I'd designed. But, you quickly realize that you can design hardware in a few manweeks that can take manYEARS to "finish" the associated software. Especially if you
    are cost-conscious in your design. (the idea of writing desktop code just doesn't appeal to me; I like being able to make hardware that is NOT
    sufficient for the job *do* the job!)

    And, if you're creative and have a broad base of application technology
    behind you, you can come up with some really interesting/fun solutions to problems!

    I never did really have a plan. Shit happened and I adapted. The closest I came
    to a plan was an attempt to remain in the dying US machine tool business.

    When I left the 9-to-5, it was because of the "we don't have time to do it right but we'll have time to do it OVER" mindset that was so common. Rush
    a product out and worry about fixing it, later.

    Do you REALLY think I want to repeat this design, AGAIN? Especially
    after I've told you why your approach is so wrong?? Why don't *you*
    repeat it -- without me! :>

    After that, I set out a pretty deliberate path to acquire the skills
    and experience that I wanted on other clients' dimes. (I don't believe
    you can truly learn a technology without actually solving real problems
    in/with it so let others present the problems that I can *learn* with!)

    /Pro bono/ work is another great opportunity to explore new solution
    spaces as they've never got the money nor expertise to apply technology
    in a meaningful way. When I was interested in learning about RDBMSs,
    I developed a "donation tracking" system for a non-profit. I used
    a distributed set of thin clients to provide "user/sensor interfaces"
    to a single server running the app -- and hosting the DBMS. A relation
    to track donors. A relation to track locations in the facility.
    A relation to track volunteers/staff (folks who act on donations and inventory). A relation to track the various sensory inputs (barcode
    readers, scales, cameras, etc.). And, a relation to track the
    actual donations/dispositions.

    And, a simple query to tell me what SHOULD be "in inventory" at any
    given time -- so you could *audit* yourself (we hired accountants to
    do that to lend extra credibility to their results). As such, you
    could tell your donors how their donations were used as well as
    how much "inventory shrinkage".

    [A material donation was tagged with a barcode and placed in a location.
    The barcode label associated with that location let the system keep track
    of what was where. No need to constantly be reshuffling product to
    ensure all of the Dell computers are in one area, HP in another,
    monitors over here, printers over there, etc. Let the RDBMS tell you
    where everything is located and free yourself from anal-retentive
    behavior!

    Some years later, I was visiting a furniture warehouse. Shelving units
    30 feet tall! And absolutely no order to how items were stored -- there
    were end tables and lamps sharing one space, lamps and couches in another, couches and matresses in yet another, etc.

    When I asked the forklift operator how he found things: "I've got a pick ticket. It tells me where to go and what to take from that location in
    order to satisfy this order."

    "But, how do you decide where to PUT things when new stock arrives?"

    "Wherever it fits! I tell the computer where I put each item and,
    if everyone does their job properly, that's where it will be when
    it is eventually needed!"

    Amusing to see that *the* logical solution was so evident -- in each
    such application!]

    [[I operate similarly, at home. Files on hundreds (literally) of disks.
    Why waste time "organizing" them by some arbitrary criteria? Just let
    a DBMS track each file's location and issue a query when you're looking
    for "Project X" related stuff -- or, a particular ISO, etc.]]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Aug 1 02:06:41 2022
    On 8/1/2022 1:51 AM, Don Y wrote:

    You have to "declare" a "course" (their name for a "major") in your
    freshman year. Prior to that, everyone is taking the standard engineering

    s.b. "END of freshman year"

    fare of physics, calculus, difeqs, etc. But, at year 2, you need to have focused on the requirements established for your "course".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 1 06:24:15 2022
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 21:56:52 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/31/2022 08:25 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>>>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start >>>>> their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk
    stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.


    My family pushed that but I wasn't so sure. It's a first generation to
    go to college thing. Blue collar workers in manufacturing plants see the >engineers as top dogs. It takes a couple of generations before doctors, >lawyers, architects, and so forth become options let alone gender
    studies and English literature.

    My dad delivered milk. My mom worked in a cafeteria. I was the first
    in the family to go to college. But I had a source of dead tube TV
    sets and neon sign transformers and WWII surplus radars and flashtubes
    so played with them. There's not much a kid can do now with a dead
    cell phone.

    Hey, I'm having troubles with Dropbox and don't trust it to get files
    from home to work. So, use a memory stick? I just realized that my
    cell phone can work as a memory stick. Duh.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 1 06:30:46 2022
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 01:51:04 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 8:52 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 06:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking
    being
    that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they
    start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum --
    prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the >>>> bulk stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life when I entered college at 16.

    I'd already been accepted at another university; I was doing medical research >with a professor, there, and had plans to continue along that path.

    I'd applied to MIT on a whim -- a fellow student had an extra application so >I filled it out sitting in Fysics class that day.

    I was mailing my acceptance letter to the first school the day the acceptance >from MIT arrived. Once my folks saw that, the decision was effectively out >of my hands. <frown> I was a bit annoyed but, what can you do?

    You have to "declare" a "course" (their name for a "major") in your
    freshman year. Prior to that, everyone is taking the standard engineering >fare of physics, calculus, difeqs, etc. But, at year 2, you need to have >focused on the requirements established for your "course".

    I wanted to design computers (hardware). The EE department had three courses:
    6.1 -- traditional EE
    6.2 -- something like "bioelectronic engineering"? no idea, no one took it!
    6.3 -- computer science
    There is a core set of classwork / curriculum for all EE's (just like there >is a core set of classwork for any student, there) but specialized courses >geared towards the specific course within that department. So, every EE got >a smattering of programming, analog design, digital design, etc. But,
    the balance shifted based on which of the three courses you elected.

    OBVIOUSLY, the 6.3 tract would teach me how to design computers, right?

    <frown> After a year, I realized much of what I was taking was regarding >software engineering; AI, compiler/language design, advanced algorithms, >probabilistic systems analysis, etc. So, scurried to find suitable specific >courses that focused more on hardware -- digital labs, etc.

    Computer Science seems to have little to do with computers.



    I suspect I ended up with the better education than if I'd gone the 6.1
    route (or, the mystery that was 6.2). Definitely more and better job >prospects. The regular EE's could "program" but didn't know shit about >designing clever algorithms, human interface issues, etc. Ask them to build >an AI and they'd look at you askance. Or, select a programming language
    or OS environment under which to develop ("You mean there's more than >Windows?")

    And, there's a very small -- shrinking -- market for designing processors.
    I caught the tail end of that and managed to get some satisfaction with
    the few that I designed. But, now, it's more effective to build a
    virtual processor, in software, than to actually fabricate one in hardware!

    I am excited to be able to FINALLY use some of the fancier technologies that >I was taught decades back in a real product. "Multitasking" was a big yawn >(doing that in products back in the late 70's -- without ANY hardware resources
    to support it!). Ditto for RT. But, to design a VMM system, build AI's, >hot-swap software (and hardware) components, cyptography, DSM, robust security,
    human factors engineering, capabilities based ACL, etc. in a *big* way is >something most designs -- let alone EMBEDDED designs -- can't even think about!

    It's nice to see my education was prescient and not obsolete the day the degree
    was awarded! (pity the folks taught about *today's* technology and wonder how >they'll forever be playing catch-up)

    Today I'd go for cognitive science but neither that or computer science existed
    at the time. FORTRAN IV and punchcards didn't light my fire either. It was

    I have a fond memory of punch cards. My first courses used batch submitted >Hollerith cards for job submission. "Shit! ABENDed on a bad JCL card?"

    Cards were a huge improvement over paper tape. I hacked the PDP-11
    assembler and Focal-11 to both read cards, and interfaced an IBM 029
    card punch to a PDP-11 to convert paper tape programs to cards.

    Disk drives were expensive and unreliable at first.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 1 07:54:00 2022
    mandag den 1. august 2022 kl. 05.31.34 UTC+2 skrev Clifford Heath:
    On 1/8/22 12:29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:02:36 +1000, Clifford Heath <no_...@please.net> wrote:

    On 31/7/22 15:37, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems: >>>> https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >>>
    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth.

    The maker movement is mostly made of regret. Teen years wasted playing
    video games, didn't learn any construction skills, but find themselves
    dependent on stuff that other folk have made. Get the urge to know how
    to make stuff, but have no-one (but other ignorami) to teach them anything.

    Don't know how to use a saw or a chisel, but they try to build and use
    CNC mills and laser cutters. No idea how to choose the right glue or use >> a welder, so they make things in CAD and use a 3D printer. Have never
    fixed their bicycle, but they want to build android robots. Don't
    understand aerodynamics enough to build a good paper dart, but they want >> to customize drones.

    Sad really.


    A manual mill is better to learn on. You can feel the forces.
    A plain bastard file or a hacksaw is better still. If you don't
    understand cutting, you have no business using a cutting machine, let
    alone an automated one.

    When my uncle (retired watchmaker) started his apprenticeship in the
    1950s, one of the first tasks was to cut two rough 2" cubes, and using
    only files and scrapers, to make them into identical cubes such that any
    pair of faces would align perfectly on all four edges, and be flat
    enough that you could pick up the other block by stiction alone. That
    took four months of work.

    I get the point but today that would a total waste of time, learning to to do it with a mill and surface grinder would be much better use of time

    Without understanding the processes that can turn two rough blocks of
    mild steel into perfectly cubic gauge blocks, the rest of the
    apprenticeship would have been wasted. As are the efforts of most `makers`.

    nonsense

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Aug 1 10:12:35 2022
    On 08/01/2022 02:51 AM, Don Y wrote:
    It's nice to see my education was prescient and not obsolete the day the degree
    was awarded! (pity the folks taught about *today's* technology and
    wonder how
    they'll forever be playing catch-up)

    One of my senior projects was a thought experiment to design an
    automated library retrieval system. We were thinking in terms of
    microfiche in concrete terms but the media was TBD. About 40 years later
    when the library installed their new system to spit out your desired DVD
    it was somehow familiar.

    Like aircraft designers waiting for lightweight IC engines the seeds
    were there waiting for the technology to develop. There were dead-ends
    like bit slice processors or bubble memory but eventually we got there.

    The art of thinking was the important takeaway. Otherwise you're looking
    at a glorified trade school turning out Maytag repairmen. That's not to
    say we don't need repairmen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Aug 1 10:26:24 2022
    On 08/01/2022 03:06 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/1/2022 1:51 AM, Don Y wrote:

    You have to "declare" a "course" (their name for a "major") in your
    freshman year. Prior to that, everyone is taking the standard
    engineering

    s.b. "END of freshman year"

    RPI's core was two years. For example we used Resnick & Halliday for
    physics (Not that Robert Resnick being a RPI professor had anything to
    do with it). By the spring of the sophomore year you got to the juicy
    stuff, quantum. The final two years often revisited the core curriculum
    in more depth. Thermodynamics, electromagnetic theory, strength of
    materials, and so forth weren't strangers, although they did tend to
    separate the sheep from the goats.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Aug 1 10:35:35 2022
    On 08/01/2022 07:30 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Computer Science seems to have little to do with computers.

    Nor does it have much to do with practical coding in its pure form.

    Disk drives were expensive and unreliable at first.

    What, you didn't like the 2311, 7.5 MB in a package the size of a
    washing machine? Removable media, how cool is that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Aug 1 10:52:52 2022
    On 08/01/2022 07:24 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    My dad delivered milk. My mom worked in a cafeteria. I was the first
    in the family to go to college. But I had a source of dead tube TV
    sets and neon sign transformers and WWII surplus radars and flashtubes
    so played with them. There's not much a kid can do now with a dead
    cell phone.

    My uncle had a radio and eventually a TV store so there was an entire
    backroom full of dead chassis, plus a big box of questionable tubes that
    needed testing. He'd started the store with a guy he'd sort of adopted.
    Joe, the guy, would make house calls to repair TVs, with a station wagon
    full of parts. The dreaded words were 'I have to take it back to the
    shop' where my uncle would dig into the guts.

    Hey, I'm having troubles with Dropbox and don't trust it to get files
    from home to work. So, use a memory stick? I just realized that my
    cell phone can work as a memory stick. Duh.

    One of the MS things I've come to like is One Drive. We have a corporate
    one plus the personal. I used to put files on our ftp server but now I
    copy them to One Drive. It's also handy for work in progress.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Aug 1 13:59:43 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start >>>> their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk >>> stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.


    Age five for me, courtesy of a post-Sputnik kid's science program called "Discovery 64". They were interviewing some character in a lab coat who
    said something along the lines of, "Scientific knowledge is growing so
    fast that in the future, we'll need people who can bring together
    several fields--'synthesists'." (I remember that last coinage quite
    vividly.)

    The show went off the air the following year, IIRC, so I know when it
    was to pretty good accuracy. We chronically underestimate bright
    youngsters.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 1 11:18:42 2022
    mandag den 1. august 2022 kl. 19.59.55 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk
    stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.

    Age five for me, courtesy of a post-Sputnik kid's science program called "Discovery 64". They were interviewing some character in a lab coat who
    said something along the lines of, "Scientific knowledge is growing so
    fast that in the future, we'll need people who can bring together
    several fields--'synthesists'." (I remember that last coinage quite
    vividly.)

    The show went off the air the following year, IIRC, so I know when it
    was to pretty good accuracy. We chronically underestimate bright
    youngsters.

    if it is this one it say it ran from 1962 to 1971 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(American_TV_series)
    quite a few on youtube, https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDBnbzk6gA0j2HtXlW5sQF7ap56kWqztY

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 12:02:12 2022
    On 8/1/2022 9:26 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 03:06 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/1/2022 1:51 AM, Don Y wrote:

    You have to "declare" a "course" (their name for a "major") in your
    freshman year. Prior to that, everyone is taking the standard
    engineering

    s.b. "END of freshman year"

    RPI's core was two years. For example we used Resnick & Halliday for physics (Not that Robert Resnick being a RPI professor had anything to do with it). By
    the spring of the sophomore year you got to the juicy stuff, quantum. The final
    two years often revisited the core curriculum in more depth. Thermodynamics, electromagnetic theory, strength of materials, and so forth weren't strangers,
    although they did tend to separate the sheep from the goats.

    Too many years ago for me to remember which *classes* ("courses" meaning something else) were:
    - required for all
    - required for EE
    - required for specific "subflavor" of EE

    But, I recall a normal load was ~60 units -- a "real" class being typically
    12 (unit = hour of work per week) or roughly 5 classes/semester. I recall
    72 units of "humanities" req'd to graduate (though no real constraints on
    what you took). So, that's a bit over a semester of "required fluff" (non-engineering courses). And, some number of phys ed classes (I can still feel the pain in my feet from Maggie's class -- Christ!).

    I know two semesters of Calculus (Thomas), two of Fyzix (H&R), some common
    EE classes (for the EE core), abstract algebra, diffeq's, probabilistic
    systems analysis, some sort of material science class, AI (Winston),
    digital lab (Lee), advanced algorithms, compiler design, etc. There were
    also requirements for "labs" (I recall designing/building a CDI and a two-player version of BreakOut, among other things)

    Not much leeway in terms of what you could take that wasn't somehow tied
    to a requirement (school-wide, department-wide or course-wide).

    Except, of course, for the humanities and phys ed stuff. (actually, one of
    my most memorable classes was an Amer Hist class taught by an economics professor -- put an entirely different spin on all of the Amer Hist I'd
    learned in primary school! Another was something like "The social and
    economic consequences of computers" -- not something you'd typically expect engineering to be concerned with!)

    What you took, and when, was something that you sorted out based on
    what you'd personally got behind you and *when* they were offered
    (some weren't offered in Fall; some not offered in Spring).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 12:18:52 2022
    On 8/1/2022 9:12 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 02:51 AM, Don Y wrote:
    It's nice to see my education was prescient and not obsolete the day the
    degree
    was awarded! (pity the folks taught about *today's* technology and
    wonder how
    they'll forever be playing catch-up)

    One of my senior projects was a thought experiment to design an automated library retrieval system. We were thinking in terms of microfiche in concrete terms but the media was TBD. About 40 years later when the library installed their new system to spit out your desired DVD it was somehow familiar.

    Like aircraft designers waiting for lightweight IC engines the seeds were there
    waiting for the technology to develop. There were dead-ends like bit slice processors or bubble memory but eventually we got there.

    Bubble was a foregone conclusion -- too many advances in semiconductor
    memory already appearing on the market by that time (core being the
    established medium).

    Bit slice imposed too much of a structure on the processor you were implementing. I used many of those concepts in my designs (Mick&Brick)
    but so many application specific instructions that didn't lend themselves easily to that sort of architecture (e.g., serial multipliers, etc.)

    What I most lament is the loss of variety in processor designs of that
    era. In 6.3, you studied different processor architectures and implementations with an eye towards the advantages they afforded to the hosted code. You'd need to understand the role of a TLB in order to write code to *use* it!

    "With VMM we can offer these features to the runtime..."
    "With CoW we can offer these features..."
    "With DSM we can offer..."
    "Instruction pipelining gives us..."
    "I/D caches give us..."
    "Tagged memory gives us..."
    "Segments give us..."
    "Protection domains give us..."
    "Capabilities gives us..."

    The B5000 line would have been exciting to watch flourish (instead of
    flounder)

    And, I would have thought that the *variety* would have TAUGHT developers the value of writing portable code (in HLLs), *sooner*. MULTICS certainly learned that lesson painfully -- IIRC the estimate was 30 man years to port the code from the 36bit architecture to a more commodity-oriented 32b platform
    (no wonder it exists no longer!)

    The same can be said about early MPUs. Now we've got just a handful of offerings to address a variety of applications, markets and preferences.
    But, with the "coder mentality" that's now commonplace, this is probably
    a "business win" (finding people that can fluidly move from architecture
    to architecture poses a bit of a hiring hassle).

    OTOH, now I can *easily* have the power and capability of a hundred VAXen
    for a couple of dollars and a couple of watts! (someday, folks will
    actually start using these capabilities)

    The art of thinking was the important takeaway. Otherwise you're looking at a glorified trade school turning out Maytag repairmen. That's not to say we don't
    need repairmen.

    Yes. An early employer once commented that he hired Northeastern (Univ)
    grads if he was looking for someone to address a TODAY need; an MIT grad
    for TOMORROW! (there were several of us on staff).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 12:35:57 2022
    On 8/1/2022 9:35 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 07:30 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Computer Science seems to have little to do with computers.

    Nor does it have much to do with practical coding in its pure form.

    CS *now* likely has very little to do with engineering.
    That's why we have "programmers" and "coders" -- instead of
    "software engineers". Business wants to dumb down their
    needs (why so many COTS "hardware modules"? what's so hard
    about those designs/fabs that you need to rely on someone
    else to design them -- plus the support firmware -- instead
    of rolling your own?)

    It's also why productivity varies so much between application
    level, system level, OS level and RT -- because of the relative
    lacks of specific skills to address those ever demanding
    "markets".

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any formal documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against
    which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>

    I'd enjoy watching a "programmer" design a VMM system with
    what he likely DOESN'T know about the machine hardware. Or,
    tell him he has to treat all of his RT requirements as SRT
    (unless he can claim "it can't be done" -- and substantiate
    that!)

    Wanna bet few even consider the value of cache wrt
    the design of their data structures and code layout?

    [I spend a shitload of time thinking about how to design
    these to maximize cache and TLB hits -- otherwise, why
    *pay* for that hardware?]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 12:59:18 2022
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 10:35:35 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 08/01/2022 07:30 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Computer Science seems to have little to do with computers.

    Nor does it have much to do with practical coding in its pure form.

    Disk drives were expensive and unreliable at first.

    What, you didn't like the 2311, 7.5 MB in a package the size of a
    washing machine? Removable media, how cool is that?

    I had a 64 Kword fixed-head swapping drive on my PDP-11.

    And later an 8" floppy drive that cost $4K. Neither was reliable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Mon Aug 1 15:50:22 2022
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    mandag den 1. august 2022 kl. 19.59.55 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being >>>>>> that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to >>>>>> choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while the bulk
    stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.

    Age five for me, courtesy of a post-Sputnik kid's science program called
    "Discovery 64". They were interviewing some character in a lab coat who
    said something along the lines of, "Scientific knowledge is growing so
    fast that in the future, we'll need people who can bring together
    several fields--'synthesists'." (I remember that last coinage quite
    vividly.)

    The show went off the air the following year, IIRC, so I know when it
    was to pretty good accuracy. We chronically underestimate bright
    youngsters.

    if it is this one it say it ran from 1962 to 1971 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(American_TV_series)
    quite a few on youtube, https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDBnbzk6gA0j2HtXlW5sQF7ap56kWqztY



    They changed the name every year. It was Discovery 64 or possibly '65,
    but not later than that.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Aug 1 16:41:01 2022
    On 08/01/2022 01:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
    CS *now* likely has very little to do with engineering.
    That's why we have "programmers" and "coders" -- instead of
    "software engineers". Business wants to dumb down their
    needs (why so many COTS "hardware modules"? what's so hard
    about those designs/fabs that you need to rely on someone
    else to design them -- plus the support firmware -- instead
    of rolling your own?)

    I never did figure out all those fine distinctions although at various
    times I have identified as 'software engineer' etc depending on whatever
    the person I was talking to wanted to here or which business card I had presented. I've always worked for smaller companies where the
    organizational chart was flexible.

    That happens even in larger companies. My brother was a VP at Thiokol or whatever it was known as at the time. He said it was nothing special but
    NASA types preferred talking to VPs.

    Then there was the model where programmers were the peasants laboring in
    the field and analysts were their overseers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Mon Aug 1 17:02:37 2022
    On 08/01/2022 11:59 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:43:10 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/31/2022 5:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/31/2022 12:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
    We're targeting the "junior high" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking
    being
    that you want to get them "pointed" in a STEM direction before they
    start
    their high school education (which, in many places, requires
    students to
    choose
    a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum --
    prior to
    that, everyone is largely treated the same)

    That makes sense. I assume some slurp it up and ask for more while
    the bulk
    stumble along.

    We have "magnet schools" here that "specialize" in particular subject
    areas. Students can freely attend *if* accepted. You'd not want a
    kid to get interested in STEM in his final year in the school system
    and have missed out on those years when he *could* have received a
    more targeted education (if his interest had been developed sooner).

    The goal of the education system should be to provide the best
    education appropriate to the needs/desires of the student.

    Did *you* know what you wanted to do with your life when you were 14?

    I did when I was 10. Electrical engineer.


    Age five for me, courtesy of a post-Sputnik kid's science program called "Discovery 64". They were interviewing some character in a lab coat who
    said something along the lines of, "Scientific knowledge is growing so
    fast that in the future, we'll need people who can bring together
    several fields--'synthesists'." (I remember that last coinage quite vividly.)

    The show went off the air the following year, IIRC, so I know when it
    was to pretty good accuracy. We chronically underestimate bright
    youngsters.

    I don't remember that one. I was in 6th grade in '57 and they definitely
    ramped up the science and math components for 7th and 8th grades. (no
    junior high / middle school at least in that school).

    High school had 'enriched curriculum' program that dug a little deeper
    than the standard classes. RPI was more or less across the street and
    they had frequent open houses in the various disciplines to lure in
    students.

    My impression is the educational system went back to the same old stuff
    after a brief spurt until it suddenly became fashionable to talk about
    STEM again. It may be another buzzword but STEAM sounds promising:

    https://educatingengineers.com/resources/steam-education#history

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Aug 1 19:11:01 2022
    On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 10:52:52 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 08/01/2022 07:24 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    My dad delivered milk. My mom worked in a cafeteria. I was the first
    in the family to go to college. But I had a source of dead tube TV
    sets and neon sign transformers and WWII surplus radars and flashtubes
    so played with them. There's not much a kid can do now with a dead
    cell phone.

    My uncle had a radio and eventually a TV store so there was an entire >backroom full of dead chassis, plus a big box of questionable tubes that >needed testing. He'd started the store with a guy he'd sort of adopted.
    Joe, the guy, would make house calls to repair TVs, with a station wagon
    full of parts. The dreaded words were 'I have to take it back to the
    shop' where my uncle would dig into the guts.

    My uncle Sheldon had a tv repair shop and liked to baby-sit me. He
    couldn't solder because he always had a cigarette in one hand and a
    beer in the other, so I'd sit in his lap and solder for him.

    And I had an infinite source of dead TVs. He also had a shed full of
    surplus stuff that he stole from the Army.

    He had some guys that made houlse calls and brought the sets back to
    the shop. Sometimes he'd Windex the screen and charge for a new
    picture tube. Rascal.




    Hey, I'm having troubles with Dropbox and don't trust it to get files
    from home to work. So, use a memory stick? I just realized that my
    cell phone can work as a memory stick. Duh.

    One of the MS things I've come to like is One Drive. We have a corporate
    one plus the personal. I used to put files on our ftp server but now I
    copy them to One Drive. It's also handy for work in progress.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Aug 2 00:16:58 2022
    On 08/01/2022 08:11 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    My uncle Sheldon had a tv repair shop and liked to baby-sit me. He
    couldn't solder because he always had a cigarette in one hand and a
    beer in the other, so I'd sit in his lap and solder for him.

    I don't remember my uncle smoking but the beer was definitely there. He
    had a stroke which left his right arm useless. He would have to chase a
    can of beer around with the church key before he got it corralled but he
    got good at it.

    He had some guys that made houlse calls and brought the sets back to
    the shop. Sometimes he'd Windex the screen and charge for a new
    picture tube. Rascal.

    Color TV was his waterloo. Most people couldn't adjust the colors for
    shit and he was one of them. Then there was explaining the facts of life
    to the suckers. There were mail order ads offering a cheap conversion
    from B&W to color:

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/358317714078297150/

    Er, lady. you've been took. There's no adjusting that. Just get used to
    the Lone Ranger having a blue face.


    There was a similar scam during the cutover to digital TV, and 'digital' antennas. I'm still using a rabbit ear antenna meant to be clamped to
    the rain gutter that I bought at a truckstop in the '90s. There's only
    5 OTA stations left, not counting the subchannels and they all come in
    fine. Sometimes after a windstorm I have to rotate it, which means going
    out and twisting the 2" PVC mast it's clamped to.

    I won't go into the BestBuy solid gold HDMI cables etc. As Barnum said...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Aug 2 06:01:01 2022
    On 8/1/2022 3:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 01:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
    CS *now* likely has very little to do with engineering.
    That's why we have "programmers" and "coders" -- instead of
    "software engineers". Business wants to dumb down their
    needs (why so many COTS "hardware modules"? what's so hard
    about those designs/fabs that you need to rely on someone
    else to design them -- plus the support firmware -- instead
    of rolling your own?)

    I never did figure out all those fine distinctions although at various times I
    have identified as 'software engineer' etc depending on whatever the person I was talking to wanted to here or which business card I had presented. I've always worked for smaller companies where the organizational chart was flexible.

    What the organization labels you typically bears no relationship to your
    actual role or skillset.

    I use the terms to describe role AND skillset.

    ANYONE can (learn to) code. I expect end users to "write script" for
    my current product. It's *my* job to make sure that they can do that
    and have a high degree of success in achieving their goals. That by
    the choice/design of the scripting language, the tedium of its syntax, etc.

    But, in general, a coder is typically someone (often "self taught" -- or
    poorly taught!) who is familiar enough with the process and syntax of
    writing code in one (or more) applications to get something resembling a "correct output" -- where "correct" is loosely defined.

    E.g., I've seen folks compute the size of a file by reading a byte
    and incrementing a counter (initialized to 0) until the read() fails.
    Whether or not he's chosen an appropriate sized accumulator is a
    different story, entirely.

    One can argue that this is "correct output". However, it is likely
    NOT what the solution space expected (among other things, it
    scales for shit!). This is a coder solution. He likely won't
    see the flaws in the design until given a 35K, 67K, 3G, 5G, etc.
    file to "size" and "discovers" (!!!) that it is a lengthy process
    and his accumulator may silently overflow. Ooops!

    His "testing" will occur in fits and spurts while writing the
    code -- mainly to reassure himself that he's got the correct
    syntax for his intent. He'll expect someone else to tell him
    when his code fails -- and be defensive about it "Well, you never
    TOLD me there could be 2TB files!"

    A "programmer" will likely have some explicit questions that he
    *needs* (not "wants") answered before he will begin: the
    characteristics of the file store (maximum file sizes, file API,
    etc.), how he accesses it (does his code run on the same platform
    that hosts the file store), the sort of resources he can use,
    time constraints, how read/access errors should be handled
    (retry? abort?), how he communicates with the "client"
    (user or application), whether sparse files are supported
    (and how their sizes should be reported), etc.

    He'll also have a test plan in mind before starting out writing
    line 1 of code so he can refer to the exceptions that he will
    likely encounter in that test suite *as* he's writing the code.

    And, if he's a GOOD programmer, will set aside a significant
    amount of time for *final* test AFTER he's put his pen down!

    A software engineer will look upstream of the "file size"
    requirement to understand the actual intent behind the requirement.
    If you want to know the size of a file because you're trying to
    determine the freespace on a medium and plan on iterating over
    the files currently residing on it, that's:
    - inefficient
    - likely to produce a wrong result (because disk allocation
    units force the SPACE occupied by a file to be greater than
    the actual size of the file)
    He'll look at other aspects of the implementation to see if the
    information sought can be obtained more efficiently or reliably.

    [Notice how du(1) takes *ages* to return results while df(1)
    returns almost instantly? Yet, their results are more-or-less
    related!]

    There's also a different level of sophistication in the code written.

    reverse(list items) {
    if (list == nil) return
    reverse(tail items)
    print(head items)
    }

    is considerably more elegant and intuitive than:

    reverse(list items) {
    list spare_copy

    while (items != nil) {
    spare_copy = head items : spare_copy
    items = tail items
    }

    print(spare_copy)
    }

    [Of course, each has resource issues that need to be addressed in the
    function specification]

    Finally, there is the choice of idioms and how they map to the thinking embodied in the code. If, tasked with parsing a list of your friends' birthdays so you can "remember" to recognize their birthdays in a timely manner, a coder would (barring detailed specification of how the
    task should be handled) likely store birthdates in a flat database:
    4 digits of year followed by two digits of month and two digits of day.
    This followed by the person's name and/or contact information (as the
    scope of the problem hasn't been specified, who's to say?)

    How those data got there is a separate issue for him to address
    (*another* utility?)

    So, when his application runs, he'd have to open() the file (gee, what
    happens if someone has deleted the file? or, moved it? Or, the user
    specified the wrong filename on the command line??), then read a
    record and parse it to extract the information of interest.

    He'll probably just "read 4 characters" and convert them to an
    integer (what if there is a non-numeric in there? what if there are
    only THREE characters? maybe the file was tampered with (someone
    manually trying to enter data via a text editor and screwing up!)
    or it's just not in the proper format (it's not even text!).
    Likewise for the month (2 chars -- make sure you've *forced* two
    characters even if the month is 1-9!) and day (2 chars).

    Hope to hell no one decided to add field separators ('/') or
    altered the form of the date (MMDDYYYY) when they modified
    or created the file ("Cripes, EVERYONE knows you put a delimiter
    between each field! Why did you pick this stupid format??")

    Will he remember to verify the date actually is meaningful?
    20220132 doesn't exist. Nor does 20221301 or 20220229. And,
    while 20000229 *does* exist, 21000229 does NOT!

    His code will likely look like:

    check_valid_date() {
    if (month < 1)
    return(ERROR)
    if (month > 12)
    return(ERROR)

    if (day < 1)
    return(ERROR)
    if ((month != 2) && (day > days_per_month[month]))
    return(ERROR)
    if ((month == 2) && (year % 4 != 0) && (day > 28))
    return(ERROR)
    if ((month == 2) && (year % 400 == 0) && (day > 28))
    return(ERROR)

    ...

    return(SUCCESS)
    }

    [Apologies if I miscoded the leapday calculation; my point is the structure
    of the code. This a trivial example of how there are often many tests that need to be applied and how their results are handled has an impact on
    the comprehension and maintainability of the code. Imagine you had to
    *do* something for each ERROR return before exiting the function. Ditto SUCCESS. Will you remember to do it at EVERY return point?]

    A programmer would likely write:

    check_valid_date() {
    do {
    if (month < 1)
    break
    if (month > 12)
    break

    if (day < 1)
    break
    if ((month != 2) && (day > days_per_month[month]))
    break
    if ((month == 2) && (year % 4 != 0) && (day > 28))
    break
    if ((month == 2) && (year % 400 == 0) && (day > 28))
    break

    ...
    return(SUCCESS)
    } while (ONCE)

    return(ERROR)
    }

    The enclosing loop acts to support a lengthier conditional that would
    otherwise be impractical (and impossible!) to express in a single conditional. See how many times you DON'T encounter it! <frown>

    Note, also, the differences between do{}while(), while{}, for(,,){}, etc.
    A coder will likely pick one and use it universally, massaging the preconditions, as necessary (which could otherwise be UNnecessary!) to fit.

    A programmer would likely also know of the existence of a ready-made ftn
    that does this directly -- or as a side effect. Or, at least use ftns
    to better parse the character stream -- perhaps going as far as defining
    a grammar to parse an XML file structure using a DFA that a parser
    generator wrote FOR HIM!

    [A coder, esp one with a hardware background, might understand the notion
    of an FSM but likely never make the leap to how such broader mechanisms can
    be used to generate RELIABLE code, automatically! "Grammar? Isn't that the old lady who married Gramper?"]

    But, each implementation suffers from the fact that the "data" can be
    altered, improperly, outside of the control of the codebase!

    A software/system engineer would seek to store the data in a form that eliminates bad data from ever getting *into* the system. Maybe something as simple as using Julian dates with write protected files? And, prevents
    it from being altered to what could be "bad values". E.g., store
    the data in a database that allows constraints to be placed -- and
    enforced -- on the data: "this field must be a valid date"
    This eliminates the need to recheck the data's validity at time of
    use (what if 10 different applications want to use that data? Does
    each have to SEPARATELY verify the data's integrity before use?
    Will *each* implement those checks correctly and consistently?

    [Ever notice how file sizes in Windows are inconsistently reported?
    Something that claims to be 3K in one place may be shown as 4K in
    another? Couldn't someone come up with a consistent rounding algorithm
    and make it available to all apps??]

    That happens even in larger companies. My brother was a VP at Thiokol or whatever it was known as at the time. He said it was nothing special but NASA types preferred talking to VPs.

    Exactly.

    In non-profits, you have to be very careful about handing out titles willy-nilly (in lieu of better wages). Call someone an IT director
    and he is now 100% overhead! Instead, call him "Program manager,
    free computers" and his salary is chargeable to the "free computers"
    program as a "program expense", just like the supplies you may need
    to clean the cases of those free computers!. Suddenly, you look
    like a more efficient user of monetary donations!

    [Does the guy *really* care if he's called IT director?? Seriously??!]

    Then there was the model where programmers were the peasants laboring in the field and analysts were their overseers.

    There's a cute little summary of software titles somewhere in my collection.
    It lists titles and "plain talk" descriptions. Among them:
    ...
    ... talks to God
    ... *is* God!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Aug 2 10:22:13 2022
    On 08/02/2022 07:01 AM, Don Y wrote:
    ANYONE can (learn to) code. I expect end users to "write script" for
    my current product. It's *my* job to make sure that they can do that
    and have a high degree of success in achieving their goals. That by
    the choice/design of the scripting language, the tedium of its syntax, etc.

    We have a number of canned reports but users often want a specialized
    report of some type. I was tasked with looking at third party solutions
    like Crystal Reports, Jasper Reports, BiRT, Power BI, and so forth. My conclusion was there was no way in hell a typical client was going to
    put in the days, if not weeks, to learn them.

    I did find Power BI to be the friendliest for the pie charts, bar
    charts, and other eye candy loved by top management but most of our
    clients want a traditional printed report.

    His "testing" will occur in fits and spurts while writing the
    code -- mainly to reassure himself that he's got the correct
    syntax for his intent. He'll expect someone else to tell him
    when his code fails -- and be defensive about it "Well, you never
    TOLD me there could be 2TB files!"

    We had one program that did a quick and dirty free space check. The
    programmer in question had been dead for 15 years but would have said
    'Well, you never TOLD me there would be 2TB drives!'

    I read yesterday that the Earth's rotation is slowing to the point where
    they may introduce a negative leap second and anticipate that will cause
    a bit of havoc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Aug 2 09:43:17 2022
    On 8/2/2022 9:22 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 07:01 AM, Don Y wrote:
    ANYONE can (learn to) code. I expect end users to "write script" for
    my current product. It's *my* job to make sure that they can do that
    and have a high degree of success in achieving their goals. That by
    the choice/design of the scripting language, the tedium of its syntax, etc.

    We have a number of canned reports but users often want a specialized report of
    some type. I was tasked with looking at third party solutions like Crystal Reports, Jasper Reports, BiRT, Power BI, and so forth. My conclusion was there
    was no way in hell a typical client was going to put in the days, if not weeks,
    to learn them.

    Yup. You have to make things straight forward and let the "language/runtime" sort out what the user likely wants.

    In my case, it's not likely that the user wants to determine the optimal launch date for a Jupiter mission! Rather, "did it rain, yesterday? if so, don't water the roses today!"

    Folks are used to WYSIWYG which often makes them *expect* every task to
    be easier than it ends up being. So, if you're going that route, make
    sure you have "blocks" that represent all of the choices the user is
    likely to make (so all he has to do is "pick one" and place it)

    I did find Power BI to be the friendliest for the pie charts, bar charts, and other eye candy loved by top management but most of our clients want a traditional printed report.

    His "testing" will occur in fits and spurts while writing the
    code -- mainly to reassure himself that he's got the correct
    syntax for his intent. He'll expect someone else to tell him
    when his code fails -- and be defensive about it "Well, you never
    TOLD me there could be 2TB files!"

    We had one program that did a quick and dirty free space check. The programmer
    in question had been dead for 15 years but would have said 'Well, you never TOLD me there would be 2TB drives!'

    I do fixed cost projects. It helps me ward off changes from clients
    who can't make up their mind -- until it's on *my* dime! ("Sorry,
    I realize that might be a good change to make but we already agreed
    on the project's scope, delivery and cost; you'll have to make a
    note of that for the next version...")

    A good spec is essential -- if you don't know what you're designing, then
    how the hell will you know when you've DESIGNED it??!

    And, as contracts say I will meet the established spec -- for the agreed
    upon price -- if they find a bug/flaw in my implementation at a later
    date (ANY date!), I'm obligated to fix it, "for free". Again, *they* need
    to be able to point to a document and say that it clearly states X and my implementation doesn't do X; else I'm off the hook.

    [I.e., if you are a savvy client, you will nail down as many issues as
    possible in the specification as anything left unspecified is non-binding!]

    I read yesterday that the Earth's rotation is slowing to the point where they may introduce a negative leap second and anticipate that will cause a bit of havoc.

    We're going to coat the Cesium electrons with just a bit of *taffy* until
    we've got them suitably "disciplined"! :>

    Now, to write a grammar for SWMBOs "remote control" for media player.
    She is finally letting me discard her "personal stereos" in favor of
    my media player -- but, only if the media player will respond to
    her commands the same way the stereos would! Attention to detail,
    again, so she ("client") can't complain that my implementation isn't
    as she expected! :-/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Aug 2 16:24:30 2022
    On 08/02/2022 10:43 AM, Don Y wrote:
    In my case, it's not likely that the user wants to determine the optimal launch
    date for a Jupiter mission! Rather, "did it rain, yesterday? if so, don't water the roses today!"

    Our users have perfectly logical report requests. For example they would
    like to see a simple matrix of calls for service per hour per day of
    week per agencies.

    It's simple in code. What I found in the report generators were they
    were oriented to BI. Sales per regional office, sales per product, sales
    per sales rep, no problem but when you started stacking 'pers' on the
    join returned from a SQL query there wasn't a good way to accumulate
    counts in separate buckets and print them out in a pleasing manner.


    Now, to write a grammar for SWMBOs "remote control" for media player.
    She is finally letting me discard her "personal stereos" in favor of
    my media player -- but, only if the media player will respond to
    her commands the same way the stereos would! Attention to detail,
    again, so she ("client") can't complain that my implementation isn't
    as she expected! :-/

    Good luck with that. I've never had a client glaring at me over the
    breakfast table because what she said she wanted wasn't what she really
    wanted and you should have known that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Aug 2 19:48:10 2022
    On 8/2/2022 3:24 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 10:43 AM, Don Y wrote:
    In my case, it's not likely that the user wants to determine the optimal
    launch
    date for a Jupiter mission! Rather, "did it rain, yesterday? if so, don't >> water the roses today!"

    Our users have perfectly logical report requests. For example they would like to see a simple matrix of calls for service per hour per day of week per agencies.

    Can't you predefine these -- with some possible "optional filters" -- and just let them choose from a list/menu of offerings? *Internally* (corporate)
    use a mechanism that makes it easy for YOU to create new "menu entries"
    but free them from that hassle? I don't imagine they want a new (style)
    report every day...

    It's simple in code. What I found in the report generators were they were oriented to BI. Sales per regional office, sales per product, sales per sales rep, no problem but when you started stacking 'pers' on the join returned from
    a SQL query there wasn't a good way to accumulate counts in separate buckets and print them out in a pleasing manner.

    Now, to write a grammar for SWMBOs "remote control" for media player.
    She is finally letting me discard her "personal stereos" in favor of
    my media player -- but, only if the media player will respond to
    her commands the same way the stereos would! Attention to detail,
    again, so she ("client") can't complain that my implementation isn't
    as she expected! :-/

    Good luck with that. I've never had a client glaring at me over the breakfast table because what she said she wanted wasn't what she really wanted and you should have known that.

    She's happy with the way the "little stereos" operate. So, if I *exactly* mimic the behavior of the controls -- using the exact same remote -- she
    won't know that I've scrapped her stereos in favor of a media player.

    [These things are 30+ years old and the mechanisms *regularly* break down.
    I am then called upon to fix the unit in question -- ASAP (lest she not
    be able to listen to *her* music while falling asleep or having morning
    coffee. My move to a media server is just a proactive response to The Inevitable (irreparable breakdown)]

    I've built the grammar and just have to come up with the actions to associate with each "valid sentence". The (dual) cassette player/recorder is one issue that I will have to fudge (she's never used either function). I'm thinking
    of creating virtual cassettes -- write enabled! So, if she wanted to capture something that was playing (think "radio source"), she could do so and
    replay it later (as long as she didn't overwrite the recording)

    I have to finish up the FM/FMHD radio design as she uses that periodically.

    And, I will have to think about how to drive the display; I don't think
    she'll want it "animated" when trying to sleep (blue VFD vs. the yellow
    display on the stereo). THAT is something that will surely draw a comment!

    I'll think on it for a few nights; it's waited this long so it can wait
    a bit longer (assuming the mechanism is accommodating!).

    Back to scanning books/manuals "on the side"...

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Aug 2 21:52:30 2022
    On 08/02/2022 08:48 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Can't you predefine these -- with some possible "optional filters" --
    and just
    let them choose from a list/menu of offerings? *Internally* (corporate)
    use a mechanism that makes it easy for YOU to create new "menu entries"
    but free them from that hassle? I don't imagine they want a new (style) report every day...

    That was my recommendation. We have a number of canned reports that
    accept a limited number of parameters, date range, agency, geographical
    area and so forth. There is an 'ad hoc' interface that allows more
    flexibility but it is clumsy, particularly the output format
    specification. Figure out what the people using those are really doing
    and add those to the canned reports.

    If a site wants a specialized report we can tool it up in a couple of
    hours. Not my area but whether it is billable depends on how useful it
    seems for all sites and if we're in the mood to toss them a fish.
    Realizing something is trivial and giving it to a site overnight and
    gratis has never hurt word of mouth advertising.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Wed Aug 3 08:23:09 2022
    On 31/07/2022 22.32, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    søndag den 31. juli 2022 kl. 22.18.30 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 15:58:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
    <rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >>>> happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >>>> power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >>>> were afraid of them.




    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.
    Seems to me that not a lot has changed in the last 30 years or so. We
    had uPs, opamps, FPGAs, memory chips, ADCs, DACs, multilayer boards.
    Things have just got a bit denser.

    Designing with SOCs, single chips with uPs and FPGAs on common
    silicon, isn't much different from when they were on separate chips.

    and now kids can gets all the parts they imagine and decent quality PCBs professionally made (and even assembled) for pocket money after
    designing it all with free tools

    that's a big difference from, say, 20 years ago
    Plus that you can get a development kit for 5 bucks, and very cheap instruments.

    I started when I was 7 ish, but could not afford instruments. My dad
    should have chipped in, but he didn't so I did not do much experimenting
    before I got 10 years older when I could buy it myself

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Aug 3 01:46:51 2022
    On 8/2/2022 8:52 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 08:48 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Can't you predefine these -- with some possible "optional filters" --
    and just
    let them choose from a list/menu of offerings? *Internally* (corporate)
    use a mechanism that makes it easy for YOU to create new "menu entries"
    but free them from that hassle? I don't imagine they want a new (style)
    report every day...

    That was my recommendation. We have a number of canned reports that accept a limited number of parameters, date range, agency, geographical area and so forth. There is an 'ad hoc' interface that allows more flexibility but it is clumsy, particularly the output format specification. Figure out what the people using those are really doing and add those to the canned reports.

    If a site wants a specialized report we can tool it up in a couple of hours. Not my area but whether it is billable depends on how useful it seems for all sites and if we're in the mood to toss them a fish. Realizing something is trivial and giving it to a site overnight and gratis has never hurt word of mouth advertising.

    We designed a LORAN-C position plotter based on the i4004 many decades ago.
    The i4004 isn't even as capable as a calculator! <frown> So, dealing with families of hyperbolic curves in real time (getting position fixes from the receiver every few seconds (10GRI) meant it was struggling just to keep
    moving the *pen*.

    So, there was lots of processing that it simply couldn't do "in real time".

    As a result, we would "tune" the algorithm to the exact region (of the
    globe) where the user was operating so the processor had a head start
    with precomputed lines-of-position geometries.

    A user (typically a fisherman/lobsterman) would submit information about
    where he was planning on operating ("fishing") and we'd run the numbers
    through the accounting departments '11 and give him a bunch of magic numbers
    to type into his plotter.

    Clumsy but there was nothing else on the market that could even do *that*!
    (our second plotter was i8085-based and did all of the stuff that the '11
    did as well so the user didn't have to do anything special for the plotter
    to know how to deal with the chain geometries where he was operating)

    If the alternative is for the (your) user to spend a day(s) dicking
    around trying to get the reports they want/need -- and, convincing themselves that the reports really *are* accurate (are they going to manually
    review a log and *count* the items that they are expecting the report
    to tabulate so they can verify THEIR reports are producing valid data??),
    then waiting a day or three may not be a problem -- esp if they can take snapshots of the data to feed to the report when it becomes available.

    And, can reuse that "report configuration" repeatedly.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Aug 3 08:17:36 2022
    On 08/03/2022 02:46 AM, Don Y wrote:

    And, can reuse that "report configuration" repeatedly.

    That's another area where the BI report packages seem to fall short
    although an expert could coax it out. Many sites have reports they run automatically every night (what happened yesterday) and email/fax (yes,
    fax still exists) to the various departments, or a monthly report. The
    only change is the date range. How to parameterize say a Crystal Reports template and have it autogenerate reports isn't obvious.

    As I dug into the packages the 'managers can easily generate the reports
    they want without bothering IT' come on in reality became 'there's a
    company wizard who does that stuff' or 'we use XXXX to design the
    reports.' There is a whole cottage industry built up around reports,
    sort of like web page design.

    Not much has changed since the green bar days.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Aug 3 08:33:48 2022
    On 8/3/2022 7:17 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/03/2022 02:46 AM, Don Y wrote:

    And, can reuse that "report configuration" repeatedly.

    That's another area where the BI report packages seem to fall short although an
    expert could coax it out. Many sites have reports they run automatically every
    night (what happened yesterday) and email/fax (yes, fax still exists) to the various departments, or a monthly report. The only change is the date range. How to parameterize say a Crystal Reports template and have it autogenerate reports isn't obvious.

    I have no idea what sorts of "general purpose" tools exist nor the sorts
    of things "users" would want to see in reports as none of the devices I've designed have ever had such a need (beyond diagnostic logs).

    I have some large DBs, here, but never generate reports from them.
    Rather, use them to find things or count things, etc.

    My current design collects boatloads of data into numerous relations
    that *could* be used in reports. But, it is actually intended for
    use by the various AI's in the system to help them better understand
    how the system is being used and its response to demands (to make
    better decisions in the future). Any reports generated would really
    only have value to a developer to determine if his algorithms are
    responding properly. (what value for the user to know the average time
    spent on the ready queue or the average number of page faults a process/app incurred?)

    SWMBO tracks all of our finances (a side-effect of her last job wherein
    she tracked all of the facilities expenditures -- construction, repair, service, etc. -- at one of the local hospitals). But, the reports
    she has built (MSAccess) serve only her (our?) needs.

    OTOH, when she needs a report, it never seems like it is too difficult to create (she has no technical education). So, that may be a place to start?

    [Note that she has stuck to an older version of MSAccess as newer versions emphasized web-based services -- she had no desire to redesign what was
    already working just for the sake of claiming to be using a "new and
    improved?" version of MSAccess!]

    As I dug into the packages the 'managers can easily generate the reports they want without bothering IT' come on in reality became 'there's a company wizard
    who does that stuff' or 'we use XXXX to design the reports.' There is a whole
    cottage industry built up around reports, sort of like web page design.

    I think this is one reason why folks like spreadsheets. They can (tediously) get a feel for the data of interest without having to know how to *ask* for it (in report form). It seems to scare people when they see summaries and have
    to *trust* that they accurately represent the data!

    [Then why not go back to 5x8 index cards and pen-and-ink record keeping?]

    SWMBO's boss (VP) was tickled that he could get any information he wanted in minutes from her -- she'd just throw together a query and pretty-print the results. That ability helped him win many battles with "Finance" -- who
    SHOULD have had that capability but didn't!

    Not much has changed since the green bar days.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From amdx@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Aug 3 11:01:43 2022
    On 7/26/2022 5:16 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
    volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
    masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

    On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
    120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the
    terminals. It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he
    was in his '60s and hadn't killed himself...

    It's not a big deal. The 'shock' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
    you didn't expect.
     Yep, the surprise! I worked on one particular brand of VCR, it had
    open 120 volt connections on the top PCB,
    I'd be working on the mechanics and set my forearm down on them, surprise!

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Aug 12 19:40:36 2022
    rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>>>>>> children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear >>>>>>> warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>>>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>>>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply to >>>>>>> see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating. >>>>>>
    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset  then don't hire
      them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things  :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
    software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9
    volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually
    pays way better, too.


    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I'll confess that with ebooks I don't physically visit the library often.

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a
    10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do.

    They do ever so much, though. Check out the Regular Cars channel on
    YouTube. People will add boost, redo the suspension, lots of stuff. Even replace the ECM or "tune" them. It's no longer "add a Cherry Bomb and spoilers."

    If you get a chance, find current prices for 1994 Toyota Supra MK IV.
    Because of the association with a film franchise, they run to stupendous amounts of money.


    CAI, cat-back, overdrive
    pulley, and other minor stuff.


    --
    Les Cargill

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  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 12 19:52:08 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/1/2022 9:35 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 07:30 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Computer Science seems to have little to do with computers.

    Nor does it have much to do with practical coding in its pure form.

    CS *now* likely has very little to do with engineering.

    "CS" CS is math. Computer engineering is different. It's
    library science plus EE plus computation theory. Throw in
    project management.

    That's why we have "programmers" and "coders" -- instead of
    "software engineers".

    We have those, too. But the call of the Web means not many
    will be all that interested.

    Business wants to dumb down their
    needs (why so many COTS "hardware modules"? what's so hard
    about those designs/fabs that you need to rely on someone
    else to design them -- plus the support firmware -- instead
    of rolling your own?)


    Lots of reasons. These days it's harder to find people who
    can spin boards for one. Never mind you can do it by mail.

    It's also why productivity varies so much between application
    level, system level, OS level and RT -- because of the relative
    lacks of specific skills to address those ever demanding
    "markets".


    I think more is made of this than there really should be. It's
    all one big thing. But there's money to be made in C# and those
    guys aren't gonna be comfortable writing drivers after a while.

    But people like things they can see, even if that's an illusion.
    The best computer is the one you don't even know is there until it
    stops working.

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any formal documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against
    which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>


    If you start with the test harness you get more done. Once you have the prototype up, then write the documents. You'll simply know more that
    way.

    I'd enjoy watching a "programmer" design a VMM system with
    what he likely DOESN'T know about the machine hardware. Or,
    tell him he has to treat all of his RT requirements as SRT
    (unless he can claim "it can't be done" -- and substantiate
    that!)

    Wanna bet few even consider the value of cache wrt
    the design of their data structures and code layout?

    [I spend a shitload of time thinking about how to design
    these to maximize cache and TLB hits -- otherwise, why
    *pay* for that hardware?]

    These days? It all comes out in the wash. I haven't been compute bound
    in a couple decades.

    --
    Les Cargill

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  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Aug 12 20:02:39 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    <snip>

    Transistors, then ICs, then uPs, were game changers. What's the next
    one?



    Way too much compute power is now way too cheap. You can do realtime
    nonlinear simulation in the audio range with just about any PC. The
    software costs are minimal. Not much is out of range in terms of
    capability.

    It's to the point now that the UI is the point of differentiation.

    Programmable analog chips keep getting invented and keep dying. That's interesting.


    They get themselves cornered and end up on the price decline curve.
    Besides, who really knows what they're used for these days? If it
    goes in a phone, it lasts as long as that phone. Otherwise it's
    customer by customer.

    I know of one guy who used a digital pot and a micro to make a
    software-driven audio compressor ( the FMR 1175 ) and SFAIK, he's sold
    that out and retired.

    He did the marketing very well.

    --
    Les Cargill

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Fri Aug 12 19:24:06 2022
    On 8/12/2022 5:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/1/2022 9:35 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 07:30 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Computer Science seems to have little to do with computers.

    Nor does it have much to do with practical coding in its pure form.

    CS *now* likely has very little to do with engineering.

    "CS" CS is math. Computer engineering is different. It's
    library science plus EE plus computation theory. Throw in
    project management.

    When I went to school, an EE(CS) was expected to be able to design
    a computer ("CPU"), design a language, write a compiler for the
    language and design/implement an OS using some or all of the above.

    Each *class* had its own home-grown computer system, OS, etc.
    That's why you have grad students! :>

    The folks I've seen/interviewed in the decades since seem only
    to know how to write code in the /langue du jour/. The underlying
    hardware, the translation of their statements into instruction
    sequences, etc. are just some ephemeral concepts to them.

    That's why we have "programmers" and "coders" -- instead of
    "software engineers".

    We have those, too. But the call of the Web means not many
    will be all that interested.

    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    Business wants to dumb down their
    needs (why so many COTS "hardware modules"? what's so hard
    about those designs/fabs that you need to rely on someone
    else to design them -- plus the support firmware -- instead
    of rolling your own?)

    Lots of reasons. These days it's harder to find people who
    can spin boards for one. Never mind you can do it by mail.

    But, they will likely have to develop (design, layout, fabricate, test)
    a daughter-board of some sort to bridge the gap between COTS module and
    their particular needs. Or, piece (kludge) together a bunch of modules
    in the hope that they can get close to what they need.

    It's also why productivity varies so much between application
    level, system level, OS level and RT -- because of the relative
    lacks of specific skills to address those ever demanding
    "markets".

    I think more is made of this than there really should be. It's
    all one big thing. But there's money to be made in C# and those
    guys aren't gonna be comfortable writing drivers after a while.

    There's a huge difference between writing an application, an OS,
    drivers, etc. Real-time constraints act as a *multiplier* on that.
    And, safety/reliability a further multiplier.

    When you look at big projects, productivity falls dramatically
    as the complexity increases (app->driver->os, etc.)

    But people like things they can see, even if that's an illusion.
    The best computer is the one you don't even know is there until it
    stops working.

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any formal
    documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against
    which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>

    If you start with the test harness you get more done. Once you have the prototype up, then write the documents. You'll simply know more that
    way.

    I approach it from the top, down. Figure out what the *requirements*
    are (how can you design a test harness if you don't know what you'll be
    testing or the criteria that will be important?).

    Once you know the requirements, a "programmer" can do the implementation
    (all of the design is codified in the requirements document).

    If you write an actual *manual* as your requirements document, then you
    already know all of the operating conditions, error conditions, messages,
    etc. There's no significant thinking required thereafter.

    I allocate ~40% of my time for requirements, 20% for coding and 40% for testing/verification. I may not write a line of code for many months at
    a time! But, when I start, I know exactly what the code will do and
    how it will do it, the hazards that it will have to navigate, etc.

    So, I don't end up "discovering" that some early implementation decision
    has left me with a foundation for a summer cottage while I'm trying to
    erect a 35 room mansion atop it!

    I'd enjoy watching a "programmer" design a VMM system with
    what he likely DOESN'T know about the machine hardware. Or,
    tell him he has to treat all of his RT requirements as SRT
    (unless he can claim "it can't be done" -- and substantiate
    that!)

    Wanna bet few even consider the value of cache wrt
    the design of their data structures and code layout?

    [I spend a shitload of time thinking about how to design
    these to maximize cache and TLB hits -- otherwise, why
    *pay* for that hardware?]

    These days? It all comes out in the wash. I haven't been compute bound in a couple decades.

    You've been blessed. My career has consisted of designing hardware
    that can just barely meet the needs of the product and having to
    squeeze every bit of performance from it. (because we're trying to
    keep product cost/complexity to a minimum)

    I had an argument with an employer years ago because I put a dozen
    16bit counters in my design when *he* thought I could just implement
    the high-order byte (for 8 of them) in software (IRQ, highbyte++, RETI).

    Because that's what would be the norm in the markets in which we operated.

    Without batting an eyelash, I told him that it would require 15% of
    real-time just to process those IRQ's. CONTINUOUSLY (as the counters
    had to be running in order to detect events of interest based on
    changes in frequencies) 15% of the product "spent" to save eight 8-bit counters.

    [of *course* I had already done the math, that's called engineering!
    a "programmer" would have just written the code and wondered why
    the system couldn't meet it's performance goals]

    The final product often ran at 100% of real-time as it had to react to the actions of the user; you can't limit how quickly a user drags a barcode
    label across a photodiode (no, you can't put a "barcode reader" in the
    design as that costs recurring dollars!)

    In my first commercial product, we counted the number of discrete subroutine invocations (CALL <foo>) and sorted by target address. Then, replaced the
    *8* (magic!) most frequent ones with one byte opcodes that redirected through
    a set of 8 specific locations in memory. This added a small delay to each
    of those subroutine invocations. But, saved 2 bytes for each "CALL". This
    let us reduce the size of the binary enough to remove a 2Kx8 EPROM from the
    BoM (at the time, 2716's were on allocation AND selling for $50/each).

    My present project has gobs of resources. And I am generously consuming them to make the operating environment more robust and reliable. Approaching the issue from the other side: how much can I "waste" to make the *application* better without significantly impacting performance?

    At the same time, supporting dynamic system reconfiguration that allows hardware to be shed to conserve power, etc. (how do you adjust the workload when you're reducing the resources available?) Or, defering jobs to times when there is less demand for resources ("after hours").

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Fri Aug 12 19:34:03 2022
    On 8/12/2022 6:02 PM, Les Cargill wrote:

    [specialty chips]

    They get themselves cornered and end up on the price decline curve.
    Besides, who really knows what they're used for these days? If it
    goes in a phone, it lasts as long as that phone. Otherwise it's
    customer by customer.

    With a few exceptions, general purpose solutions end up winning out.

    "If you can't make a 2X increase in performance/price, just sit on
    your hands for a year and get it for free"

    Ages ago, I designed a vector processor that had an opcode that
    would apply independent scale factors to dX and dY, divide each
    of these into a MaxX, MaxY *respectively*, select the smaller of
    these two quotients and scale the *scaled* dX, dY by that amount.
    It took ~2us to do this. And, was busy fetching/decoding the next
    opcode(s) at the same time!

    Now, I can probably write a little subroutine to do it in the
    same amount of real time. Using a COTS CPU! Why design custom
    chips when you can "emulate" them and save all the risk/expense?
    (how many should you commit to purchasing? will you be able to
    use them for anything *else*??)

    I know of one guy who used a digital pot and a micro to make a software-driven audio compressor ( the FMR 1175 ) and SFAIK, he's sold that out
    and retired.

    He did the marketing very well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Fri Aug 12 21:04:21 2022
    On 08/12/2022 06:40 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>>>>>>> children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. >>>>>>>> Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>>>>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>>>>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply >>>>>>>> to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage
    rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset then don't hire
    them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into >>>> software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9
    volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually
    pays way better, too.


    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is
    being used. I'll confess that with ebooks I don't physically visit the
    library often.

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a
    10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do.

    They do ever so much, though. Check out the Regular Cars channel on
    YouTube. People will add boost, redo the suspension, lots of stuff. Even replace the ECM or "tune" them. It's no longer "add a Cherry Bomb and spoilers."

    Coilovers and remapping or a new chip are common. Adding a blower and/or nitrous , changing cams, flowing the heads and so forth may be a little
    past 'budding'. A blower means you'd better do something about fuel
    delivery too.

    A wise man once said 'The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic
    money'. Apparently some people have cubic money. I forget what the
    donor vehicle was but it started life as a FWD and was converted to RWD
    since drifting a FWD isn't too impressive.

    I was surprised to find TRD has some nice Yaris goodies. Turns out the
    Yaris (Vitz) is very popular for club racing in Japan.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 12 21:34:02 2022
    On 08/12/2022 08:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    mmm-hmmm. The covid gap has messed up my time sense but I think we're
    close to 3 years into developing what amounts to an Angular SPA. That's
    3 to 4 1/2 full time programmers and 3 to 4 testers. I count myself as
    1/2 since most of what I've done is integrating the ESRI 4.20 Javascript
    API into one of the panels and other odd tasks while doing enhancements
    and fixes in the legacy code.

    Actually it's TS (TypeScript). Once you get out of the sandbox of
    contoso* samples it gets complex.

    * contoso is a fictional corporate entity Microsoft used for tutorials
    and examples. It goes back to 1998 or so. There is a contoso.com domain
    and it's grown into a multinational (fictional) corporate entity.

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/contoso-overview?view=o365-worldwide

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Aug 12 20:39:49 2022
    On 8/12/2022 8:34 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 08:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    mmm-hmmm. The covid gap has messed up my time sense but I think we're close to
    3 years into developing what amounts to an Angular SPA. That's 3 to 4 1/2 full
    time programmers and 3 to 4 testers. I count myself as 1/2 since most of what I've done is integrating the ESRI 4.20 Javascript API into one of the panels and other odd tasks while doing enhancements and fixes in the legacy code.

    That's not an "appLET". You're developing a real application suite/system *under* a Java framework. I'd wager most JS "coders" are busy knocking
    out what could reasonably be called cookie-cutter "web sites". Not much "engineering", there! (hence the use of *coders*)

    Actually it's TS (TypeScript). Once you get out of the sandbox of contoso* samples it gets complex.

    * contoso is a fictional corporate entity Microsoft used for tutorials and examples. It goes back to 1998 or so. There is a contoso.com domain and it's grown into a multinational (fictional) corporate entity.

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/contoso-overview?view=o365-worldwide

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Fri Aug 12 21:49:51 2022
    On 08/12/2022 06:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    "CS" CS is math. Computer engineering is different. It's
    library science plus EE plus computation theory. Throw in
    project management.

    That has amused me at times. I'm not particularly good at math but like
    to think I have passable programming skills. I should say logic skills.
    I've worked with relay logic, fluidics, TTL/CMOS, and processors. The
    logic stays the same. I know about Boolean algebra, DeMorgan's theorems,
    and so forth but I've seldom made use of formal logic. It's intuitive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Aug 12 20:47:53 2022
    On 8/12/2022 8:04 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 06:40 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    rbowman wrote:

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a
    10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do.

    They do ever so much, though. Check out the Regular Cars channel on
    YouTube. People will add boost, redo the suspension, lots of stuff. Even
    replace the ECM or "tune" them. It's no longer "add a Cherry Bomb and
    spoilers."

    Coilovers and remapping or a new chip are common. Adding a blower and/or nitrous , changing cams, flowing the heads and so forth may be a little past 'budding'. A blower means you'd better do something about fuel delivery too.

    A wise man once said 'The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic money'. Apparently some people have cubic money. I forget what the donor vehicle was but it started life as a FWD and was converted to RWD since drifting a FWD isn't too impressive.

    *Lots* of people have money -- but little/no skill/desire to get their hands dirty.

    Lots of people have skill -- but no money! :>

    [This is true in many fields]

    The trick is finding the sweet-spot where you have *enough* money and *sufficient* skill to do something, impressive, yourself!

    A friend was in that (racing) industry, some years back. I tagged along
    to visit one of his customers, one day. The customer offered a service
    of "tuning" stock engines to optimize performance. This by tweeks to
    the factory firmware as well as adding and subtracting metal to improve
    airflow through the manifolds, etc.

    [Of course, there can be no visible sign that any of this has been done! :> ]

    It was a delightfully enlightening experience! It gets you thinking
    (esp in light of how folks like VW scammed the system) about how you can
    skirt the legal requirements (emissions, etc.) and still come out with a *performance* "road vehicle". Something that *really* looks "stock"...

    I was surprised to find TRD has some nice Yaris goodies. Turns out the Yaris (Vitz) is very popular for club racing in Japan.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 09:25:47 2022
    On 08/12/2022 09:47 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 8:04 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 06:40 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    rbowman wrote:

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a >>>> 10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do.

    They do ever so much, though. Check out the Regular Cars channel on
    YouTube. People will add boost, redo the suspension, lots of stuff. Even >>> replace the ECM or "tune" them. It's no longer "add a Cherry Bomb and
    spoilers."

    Coilovers and remapping or a new chip are common. Adding a blower
    and/or nitrous , changing cams, flowing the heads and so forth may be
    a little past 'budding'. A blower means you'd better do something
    about fuel delivery too.

    A wise man once said 'The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic
    money'. Apparently some people have cubic money. I forget what the
    donor vehicle was but it started life as a FWD and was converted to
    RWD since drifting a FWD isn't too impressive.

    *Lots* of people have money -- but little/no skill/desire to get their
    hands
    dirty.

    Lots of people have skill -- but no money! :>

    That's the story of my teenage years. Big ideas, empty pockets. It did
    lead to some interesting projects. I had a '60 Plymouth with an ailing TorqueFlite, so I replaced it with a manual. Of course that meant
    fabbing a hydraulic clutch and a new drive shaft. That accomplished life
    was good until a state trooper asked me to demonstrate how well the
    parking brake worked. The TorqueFlite had a drum brake on the tailshaft
    for a parking brake and that was long gone. Next project, hunt up a rear
    axle with a parking brake, slip that in, and fab an actuator.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 09:39:21 2022
    On 08/12/2022 09:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 8:34 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 08:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    mmm-hmmm. The covid gap has messed up my time sense but I think we're
    close to 3 years into developing what amounts to an Angular SPA.
    That's 3 to 4 1/2 full time programmers and 3 to 4 testers. I count
    myself as 1/2 since most of what I've done is integrating the ESRI
    4.20 Javascript API into one of the panels and other odd tasks while
    doing enhancements and fixes in the legacy code.

    That's not an "appLET". You're developing a real application suite/system *under* a Java framework. I'd wager most JS "coders" are busy knocking
    out what could reasonably be called cookie-cutter "web sites". Not much "engineering", there! (hence the use of *coders*)


    NOT Java!!! That was a very unfortunate naming. This is a replacement
    for a legacy Java app that was the original attempt at a cross platform solution. That became an albatross when the browsers dropped support for
    Java applets (and ActiveX) because of the security holes.

    It is a challenge to replace a suite of legacy programs with a browser
    based application but many of the RFP's have been specifying zero
    footprint. It certainly makes updates a lot easier, particularly for
    mobile resources.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 11:05:05 2022
    On 8/13/2022 8:39 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 09:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 8:34 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 08:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    mmm-hmmm. The covid gap has messed up my time sense but I think we're
    close to 3 years into developing what amounts to an Angular SPA.
    That's 3 to 4 1/2 full time programmers and 3 to 4 testers. I count
    myself as 1/2 since most of what I've done is integrating the ESRI
    4.20 Javascript API into one of the panels and other odd tasks while
    doing enhancements and fixes in the legacy code.

    That's not an "appLET". You're developing a real application suite/system >> *under* a Java framework. I'd wager most JS "coders" are busy knocking
    out what could reasonably be called cookie-cutter "web sites". Not much
    "engineering", there! (hence the use of *coders*)

    NOT Java!!! That was a very unfortunate naming. This is a replacement for a legacy Java app that was the original attempt at a cross platform solution. That became an albatross when the browsers dropped support for Java applets (and ActiveX) because of the security holes.

    It is a challenge to replace a suite of legacy programs with a browser based application but many of the RFP's have been specifying zero footprint. It certainly makes updates a lot easier, particularly for mobile resources.

    I don't believe you can write a portable, browser-based application with
    any guarantee of long-term (10 years?) support. Browsers are continually evolving; in three years we may be on *U*HTML 37.

    Were I charged with such a task, I'd define a virtual middleware to host
    the app. Then, have a second team responsible for keeping that middleware supported on newer browsers. This eliminates the problem of having the application developers constantly trying to adjust to shifting sand.

    You might look into Limbo to see how flexible it is in meeting your
    goals and how easily you can port the VM to a browser (there was a
    port some years back). It's a relatively small, well-defined machine
    (I host my applets with a bastardized version to more seemlessly
    support distributed processing)

    [A huge advantage is that the platform is open so you're not tied
    to a vendor's whims as to how they want to redirect its focus]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 11:12:18 2022
    On 8/13/2022 8:25 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 09:47 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 8:04 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 06:40 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    rbowman wrote:

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a >>>>> 10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do.

    They do ever so much, though. Check out the Regular Cars channel on
    YouTube. People will add boost, redo the suspension, lots of stuff. Even >>>> replace the ECM or "tune" them. It's no longer "add a Cherry Bomb and
    spoilers."

    Coilovers and remapping or a new chip are common. Adding a blower
    and/or nitrous , changing cams, flowing the heads and so forth may be
    a little past 'budding'. A blower means you'd better do something
    about fuel delivery too.

    A wise man once said 'The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic
    money'. Apparently some people have cubic money. I forget what the
    donor vehicle was but it started life as a FWD and was converted to
    RWD since drifting a FWD isn't too impressive.

    *Lots* of people have money -- but little/no skill/desire to get their
    hands
    dirty.

    Lots of people have skill -- but no money! :>

    That's the story of my teenage years. Big ideas, empty pockets.

    True of many people, even later in life. By the time you get to the
    point where you have money and "spare time", you start wondering if you
    have *enough* time (left) to make it worthwhile! :<

    It did lead to
    some interesting projects. I had a '60 Plymouth with an ailing TorqueFlite, so
    I replaced it with a manual. Of course that meant fabbing a hydraulic clutch and a new drive shaft. That accomplished life was good until a state trooper asked me to demonstrate how well the parking brake worked. The TorqueFlite had
    a drum brake on the tailshaft for a parking brake and that was long gone. Next
    project, hunt up a rear axle with a parking brake, slip that in, and fab an actuator.

    I wasn't interested in cars as a teenager. I was away from home, living in
    a city, when I achieved driving age. So, no opportunities for a vehicle.
    Nor a place to store/work on one (living in dorms/apartments).

    I built a CDI for my family's vehicle but, other than testing it, dad wasn't keen on having something between the points and coil that he didn't grok.
    (a shame as it was really well executed and packaged in a EMI/RFI-sealed
    box).

    It's only later in life that I've taken an interest in the combustion process and what you could do (electronics and algorithms) to play with that to
    suit your particular needs. And, as it's a black box, no one (gummit) would
    be the wiser to any changes you'd made that might not quite be kosher (cuz
    you surely aren't going to put a big switch on the dash that says
    "street legal" vs. "performance optimized" :> )

    It's particularly interesting when you see the folks with money just
    *buying* solutions; how original/innovative is that?? Why not just
    compare bank statements and skip all the extra effort?!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 12:09:55 2022
    On 8/13/2022 11:05 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Were I charged with such a task, I'd define a virtual middleware to host
    the app. Then, have a second team responsible for keeping that middleware supported on newer browsers. This eliminates the problem of having the application developers constantly trying to adjust to shifting sand.

    You might look into Limbo to see how flexible it is in meeting your
    goals and how easily you can port the VM to a browser (there was a
    port some years back). It's a relatively small, well-defined machine
    (I host my applets with a bastardized version to more seemlessly
    support distributed processing)

    [A huge advantage is that the platform is open so you're not tied
    to a vendor's whims as to how they want to redirect its focus]

    <https://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/>

    Apologies, Limbo is the (a) programming language supported by the
    Inferno OS.

    Note the IE plugin referenced (though this is really OLD, now)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 17:39:22 2022
    rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 06:40 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    rbowman wrote:
    On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net>
    wrote:

    On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

    What's wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected >>>>>>>>> children but are afraid of life.

    Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. >>>>>>>>> Fear
    warps prudent judgement.

    I've had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 >>>>>>>>> volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and >>>>>>>>> masks for everything. And who wouldn't crank up a power supply >>>>>>>>> to see
    how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage >>>>>>>>> rating.

    I guess you get what you pay for
    Interns are cheap and most don't last long.

    Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
    "taste" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
    or they do but get really upset  then don't hire
      them. :0)

    I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
    were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
    Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
    But in today's highly safety-conscious society we mustn't
    say such things  :-X


    Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into >>>>> software than hardware these days.

    Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9
    volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually >>>>> pays way better, too.


    The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
    Hardware is becoming extinct:

    Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

    https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/ >>>
    I think the article has a valid point. I've got hopes for the maker
    culture but I don't know how many participate. Our new library has a
    nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
    cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is
    being used. I'll confess that with ebooks I don't physically visit the
    library often.

    Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a
    10 year old Civic, there isn't much he can do.

    They do ever so much, though. Check out the Regular Cars channel on
    YouTube. People will add boost, redo the suspension, lots of stuff. Even
    replace the ECM or "tune" them. It's no longer "add a Cherry Bomb and
    spoilers."

    Coilovers and remapping or a new chip are common. Adding a blower and/or nitrous , changing cams, flowing the heads and so forth may be a little
    past 'budding'.

    Just a little :)

    A blower means you'd better do something about fuel
    delivery too.


    That doesn't get mentioned much but yeah.

    A wise man once said 'The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic
    money'.

    :)

    Although there are actually cheap versions of most of these things.

    Apparently some people have cubic money.

    Apparently.

    I forget what the
    donor vehicle was but it started life as a FWD and was converted to RWD
    since drifting a FWD isn't too impressive.

    I was surprised to find TRD has some nice Yaris goodies. Turns out the
    Yaris (Vitz) is very popular for club racing in Japan.




    --
    Les Cargill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 18:32:39 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 5:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Lots of reasons. These days it's harder to find people who
    can spin boards for one. Never mind you can do it by mail.

    But, they will likely have to develop (design, layout, fabricate, test)
    a daughter-board of some sort to bridge the gap between COTS module and
    their particular needs. Or, piece (kludge) together a bunch of modules
    in the hope that they can get close to what they need.


    That's not as true as it once was. Depends.

    It's also why productivity varies so much between application
    level, system level, OS level and RT -- because of the relative
    lacks of specific skills to address those ever demanding
    "markets".

    I think more is made of this than there really should be. It's
    all one big thing. But there's money to be made in C# and those
    guys aren't gonna be comfortable writing drivers after a while.

    There's a huge difference between writing an application, an OS,
    drivers, etc. Real-time constraints act as a *multiplier* on that.
    And, safety/reliability a further multiplier.


    I don't see it as all that different because that's my bias. An
    application is constructing some big ole data structure then writing an interpreter for said data structure. Kernels are much the same.

    When you look at big projects, productivity falls dramatically
    as the complexity increases (app->driver->os, etc.)


    But that's because human communication only goes so far.

    But people like things they can see, even if that's an illusion.
    The best computer is the one you don't even know is there until it
    stops working.

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any formal >>> documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against
    which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>

    If you start with the test harness you get more done. Once you have
    the prototype up, then write the documents. You'll simply know more that
    way.

    I approach it from the top, down. Figure out what the *requirements*
    are (how can you design a test harness if you don't know what you'll be testing or the criteria that will be important?).


    "I'm making an <x>. It uses interfaces <y,z...>." That's how you know.

    You get a prototype up to basically working, then you pretty much know
    the requirements.

    Then you go to lunch. Because it didn't take long... there will
    still be a lot of details.

    Once you know the requirements, a "programmer" can do the implementation
    (all of the design is codified in the requirements document).

    If you write an actual *manual* as your requirements document, then you already know all of the operating conditions, error conditions, messages, etc. There's no significant thinking required thereafter.


    Another great approach.
    <snip>

    These days? It all comes out in the wash. I haven't been compute bound
    in a couple decades.

    You've been blessed. My career has consisted of designing hardware
    that can just barely meet the needs of the product and having to
    squeeze every bit of performance from it. (because we're trying to
    keep product cost/complexity to a minimum)


    That's a dangerous place.

    I had an argument with an employer years ago because I put a dozen
    16bit counters in my design when *he* thought I could just implement
    the high-order byte (for 8 of them) in software (IRQ, highbyte++, RETI).

    Because that's what would be the norm in the markets in which we operated.

    Without batting an eyelash, I told him that it would require 15% of
    real-time just to process those IRQ's. CONTINUOUSLY (as the counters
    had to be running in order to detect events of interest based on
    changes in frequencies) 15% of the product "spent" to save eight 8-bit counters.


    Nicely put - at least you could quantify the costs.

    [of *course* I had already done the math, that's called engineering!
    a "programmer" would have just written the code and wondered why
    the system couldn't meet it's performance goals]

    The final product often ran at 100% of real-time as it had to react to the actions of the user; you can't limit how quickly a user drags a barcode
    label across a photodiode (no, you can't put a "barcode reader" in the
    design as that costs recurring dollars!)


    I'm familiar.

    <snip>

    --
    Les Cargill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 18:36:38 2022
    rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 06:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    "CS" CS is math. Computer engineering is different. It's
    library science plus EE plus computation theory. Throw in
    project management.

    That has amused me at times. I'm not particularly good at math but like
    to think I have passable programming skills. I should say logic skills.
    I've worked with relay logic, fluidics, TTL/CMOS, and processors. The
    logic stays the same. I know about Boolean algebra, DeMorgan's theorems,
    and so forth but I've seldom made use of formal logic. It's intuitive.




    CS math isn't particularly "math" math. It's a few theorems and
    then complexity analysis ( big O ).

    It's all but disjoint from programming, which is really mainly
    avoiding the nasty sharp edges.

    --
    Les Cargill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Sat Aug 13 17:13:51 2022
    On 8/13/2022 4:32 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 5:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Lots of reasons. These days it's harder to find people who
    can spin boards for one. Never mind you can do it by mail.

    But, they will likely have to develop (design, layout, fabricate, test)
    a daughter-board of some sort to bridge the gap between COTS module and
    their particular needs. Or, piece (kludge) together a bunch of modules
    in the hope that they can get close to what they need.

    That's not as true as it once was. Depends.

    If you get into the "let's add a module for..." mode, then your
    costs goes up pretty quick. Only makes sense for small
    quantities. And, you are now dependant on lots of other
    vendors (with well-chosen *components*, you can find alternates
    with drop-in replacements; not so as you add value -- firmware -- in
    those components)

    It's also why productivity varies so much between application
    level, system level, OS level and RT -- because of the relative
    lacks of specific skills to address those ever demanding
    "markets".

    I think more is made of this than there really should be. It's
    all one big thing. But there's money to be made in C# and those
    guys aren't gonna be comfortable writing drivers after a while.

    There's a huge difference between writing an application, an OS,
    drivers, etc. Real-time constraints act as a *multiplier* on that.
    And, safety/reliability a further multiplier.

    I don't see it as all that different because that's my bias. An
    application is constructing some big ole data structure then writing an interpreter for said data structure. Kernels are much the same.

    Performance of a kernel affects every job running on the machine.
    You write a sloppy app? <shrug> YOUR app sucks -- but no one
    else's.

    If you have a simple kernel, then it need not be efficient as it
    doesn't "do much". But, the more you do, the more your implementation
    affects overall performance. If faulting in a page is expensive,
    then apps won't want to incur that cost and will try to wire-down
    everything at the start. Of course, not possible for everyone to
    do so without running out of resources. And, the poor folks who
    either didn't know they *could* do that (or, felt responsible enough
    NOT to impose their greed on others) end up taking the bigger hits.

    When you look at big projects, productivity falls dramatically
    as the complexity increases (app->driver->os, etc.)

    But that's because human communication only goes so far.

    Communication also happens *in* the "system". What happens if THIS
    ftn invocation doesn't happen (client/server is offline, crashed,
    busy, etc.)? How do we handle that case locally? Is there a way
    to recover? Or, do we just abend?

    But people like things they can see, even if that's an illusion.
    The best computer is the one you don't even know is there until it
    stops working.

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any formal >>>> documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against
    which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>

    If you start with the test harness you get more done. Once you have the
    prototype up, then write the documents. You'll simply know more that
    way.

    I approach it from the top, down. Figure out what the *requirements*
    are (how can you design a test harness if you don't know what you'll be
    testing or the criteria that will be important?).

    "I'm making an <x>. It uses interfaces <y,z...>." That's how you know.

    How do you know it will use those i/fs? What if there are no existing
    APIs to draw upon (you're making a motor controller and have never made one before; you're measuring positions of an LVDT instrumented actuator; you're...)

    When you'r3e making *things*, you are often dealing with sensors and mechanisms that are novel to a particular application...

    You get a prototype up to basically working, then you pretty much know the requirements.

    Then you go to lunch. Because it didn't take long... there will
    still be a lot of details.

    Once you know the requirements, a "programmer" can do the implementation
    (all of the design is codified in the requirements document).

    If you write an actual *manual* as your requirements document, then you
    already know all of the operating conditions, error conditions, messages,
    etc. There's no significant thinking required thereafter.

    Another great approach.
    <snip>

    These days? It all comes out in the wash. I haven't been compute bound in a >>> couple decades.

    You've been blessed. My career has consisted of designing hardware
    that can just barely meet the needs of the product and having to
    squeeze every bit of performance from it. (because we're trying to
    keep product cost/complexity to a minimum)

    That's a dangerous place.

    It's a THRILLING place! It forces you to really put forth your best effort. And, causes you to think of what you *really* want to do -- instead of just hammering out a schematic and a bunch of code.

    I suspect most "programmers" can't tell you how much stack is allocated
    for their code. And, if multi-threaded, how much for EACH thread? And,
    is there any reason why it's the same for each??

    I, OTOH, can tell you the exact circumstances that will cause each thread to reach it's peak stack penetration -- why allocate a byte more than that?!

    In older designs, it was not uncommon to share the memory used by individual "variables". I.e., if two "consumers" will never execute simultaneously,
    then the memory/variables that each uses to be reused by the other.

    Or, make hackish optimizations (24b floats).

    I had an argument with an employer years ago because I put a dozen
    16bit counters in my design when *he* thought I could just implement
    the high-order byte (for 8 of them) in software (IRQ, highbyte++, RETI).

    Because that's what would be the norm in the markets in which we operated. >>
    Without batting an eyelash, I told him that it would require 15% of
    real-time just to process those IRQ's. CONTINUOUSLY (as the counters
    had to be running in order to detect events of interest based on
    changes in frequencies) 15% of the product "spent" to save eight 8-bit
    counters.

    Nicely put - at least you could quantify the costs.

    Don't you quantify the load you're going to put on a power supply before
    you design the power supply? It's called *design* not "hacking".

    [of *course* I had already done the math, that's called engineering!
    a "programmer" would have just written the code and wondered why
    the system couldn't meet it's performance goals]

    The final product often ran at 100% of real-time as it had to react to the >> actions of the user; you can't limit how quickly a user drags a barcode
    label across a photodiode (no, you can't put a "barcode reader" in the
    design as that costs recurring dollars!)

    I'm familiar.

    It got to be a favorite exercise to see how quickly and *continuously* you could swipe a barcode label across the sensor to see if the code would crash, misread, etc. The specification was for 100 inches per second (which really isn't that fast if you are deliberately trying to *be* fast) which would generate edges/events at ~15KHz. When an opcode fetch takes O(1us), you quickly run out of instructions between events!

    [Of course, everything ground to a halt during such abuse -- but, picked up where it left off as soon as your arm got tired! :> ]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 18:03:36 2022
    On 8/12/2022 8:49 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 06:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    "CS" CS is math. Computer engineering is different. It's
    library science plus EE plus computation theory. Throw in
    project management.

    That has amused me at times. I'm not particularly good at math but like to think I have passable programming skills. I should say logic skills. I've worked with relay logic, fluidics, TTL/CMOS, and processors. The logic stays the same. I know about Boolean algebra, DeMorgan's theorems, and so forth but I've seldom made use of formal logic. It's intuitive.

    People are easily confused by faulty logic. Exercises like nonsense
    syllogisms are a great way to refine how you see logical deduction
    without the "assumptions" that you may have baked into certain
    "truths".

    Likewise, understanding how you can "mechanically" transform between implication, converse, inverse, contrapositive, etc. and what those
    transforms do to the logic represented.

    If you are pregnant, then you are a female. (implication)
    If you are a female, then you are pregnant. (converse)
    If you are not pregnant, then you are not a female. (inverse)
    If you are not female, then you are not pregnant. (contrapositive)

    Clearly, the contrapositive and implication are logically equivalent.
    Knowing this can help you express ideas in better forms.

    [One of my TA's was working on "smart DB queries"; rewriting them
    in ways that exploited knowledge that the data embodied but that the
    querant hadn't leveraged (e.g., if looking for pregnant people in
    the data, then don't bother looking at the non-females!)]

    When you teach software engineering alongside a traditionally hardware curriculum ("classic EE"), it's a lot easier to see the parallels
    (duality) between the two. And, understand their root causes, etc.

    E.g., implication tables need not be the sole use of hardware design.
    Ditto Karnaugh maps, DFA, etc. Hazards, deadlock, metastability, etc.
    all have software equivalents. The same design techniques can be
    applied in each application domain.

    [VHDL/Verilog make this painfully obvious!]

    Once you start seeing things in this way, a lot of the things that
    happen "under the hood" become intuitive. E.g., write a logical
    expression in the form that is most easy for a human to understand;
    don't try to "optimize" it -- because a compiler can apply the above
    techniques to MECHANICALLY and RELIABLY optimize it for you! Why
    are you wasting your time HOPING to do it "better" and obscuring the
    intent in the process?

    You wouldn't ALWAYS draw a NAND gate as an AND with inverted output,
    would you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 20:38:29 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 4:32 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    <snip>

    Performance of a kernel affects every job running on the machine.
    You write a sloppy app? <shrug> YOUR app sucks -- but no one
    else's.

    If you have a simple kernel, then it need not be efficient as it
    doesn't "do much".

    A kernel is "swap()" ( register exchange ) plus libraries. swap()
    is irreducible; libraries less so.

    Looks like big voodoo but it's not. Now, throw in a MMU and life
    gets interesting...

    But, the more you do, the more your implementation
    affects overall performance. If faulting in a page is expensive,
    then apps won't want to incur that cost and will try to wire-down
    everything at the start. Of course, not possible for everyone to
    do so without running out of resources. And, the poor folks who
    either didn't know they *could* do that (or, felt responsible enough
    NOT to impose their greed on others) end up taking the bigger hits.

    When you look at big projects, productivity falls dramatically
    as the complexity increases (app->driver->os, etc.)

    But that's because human communication only goes so far.

    Communication also happens *in* the "system". What happens if THIS
    ftn invocation doesn't happen (client/server is offline, crashed,
    busy, etc.)? How do we handle that case locally? Is there a way
    to recover? Or, do we just abend?

    But people like things they can see, even if that's an illusion.
    The best computer is the one you don't even know is there until it
    stops working.

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any
    formal
    documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against >>>>> which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>

    If you start with the test harness you get more done. Once you have
    the prototype up, then write the documents. You'll simply know more
    that
    way.

    I approach it from the top, down. Figure out what the *requirements*
    are (how can you design a test harness if you don't know what you'll be
    testing or the criteria that will be important?).

    "I'm making an <x>. It uses interfaces <y,z...>." That's how you know.

    How do you know it will use those i/fs? What if there are no existing
    APIs to draw upon (you're making a motor controller and have never made one before; you're measuring positions of an LVDT instrumented actuator; you're...)



    For a motor controller, chances are reeally good it'll be PWM. etc, etc.

    The rest is serialization.

    When you'r3e making *things*, you are often dealing with sensors and mechanisms
    that are novel to a particular application...


    But you can usually sketch that out in one paragraph. Not always. IMO,
    when you use "big process", chances are you'll over do it because your
    risk perception is not well calibrated. Plus you have to break
    things up...


    Maybe you need message sequence charts for use cases. No problem.

    <snip>

    That's a dangerous place.

    It's a THRILLING place! It forces you to really put forth your best
    effort.
    And, causes you to think of what you *really* want to do -- instead of just hammering out a schematic and a bunch of code.


    It is fun but not the good sort of fun :)

    <snip>
    Nicely put - at least you could quantify the costs.

    Don't you quantify the load you're going to put on a power supply before
    you design the power supply? It's called *design* not "hacking".


    Well of course. Might be off but you do what you can. Or you use a
    bench supply and measure it.

    And hacking can be quite legit.

    [of *course* I had already done the math, that's called engineering!
    a "programmer" would have just written the code and wondered why
    the system couldn't meet it's performance goals]

    The final product often ran at 100% of real-time as it had to react
    to the
    actions of the user; you can't limit how quickly a user drags a barcode
    label across a photodiode (no, you can't put a "barcode reader" in the
    design as that costs recurring dollars!)

    I'm familiar.

    It got to be a favorite exercise to see how quickly and *continuously* you could swipe a barcode label across the sensor to see if the code would
    crash, misread, etc. The specification was for 100 inches per second
    (which really
    isn't that fast if you are deliberately trying to *be* fast) which would generate edges/events at ~15KHz. When an opcode fetch takes O(1us), you quickly run out of instructions between events!


    Seems like a peripheral might have been in order. Of course, if you're
    the peripheral...

    [Of course, everything ground to a halt during such abuse -- but, picked up where it left off as soon as your arm got tired! :> ]

    --
    Les Cargill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Sat Aug 13 20:42:43 2022
    On 8/13/2022 6:38 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 4:32 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    <snip>

    Performance of a kernel affects every job running on the machine.
    You write a sloppy app? <shrug> YOUR app sucks -- but no one
    else's.

    If you have a simple kernel, then it need not be efficient as it
    doesn't "do much".

    A kernel is "swap()" ( register exchange ) plus libraries. swap()
    is irreducible; libraries less so.

    Looks like big voodoo but it's not. Now, throw in a MMU and life
    gets interesting...

    A kernel (OS) is responsible for managing the hardware resources of
    a machine/system for its users (applications). The extent that this
    is done -- and the number of "users" (which may be *one* -- think DOS)
    involved is part of the requirements document.

    [FWIW, the Linux *kernel* is now ~30MSLOC -- a wee bit more than
    "swapping registers"]

    In the case of multiple "users" (apps/clients), it has to act as a referee doling out resources (memory, MIPS, time) between those competing users
    as well as isolating them from each other and facilitating communication between them in an orderly fashion.

    It also strives to maintain the illusion (to the clients) that each is
    the sole user of the machine -- that each new user effectively has their
    own machine. And, provide abstractions for the resources that hide implementation details, reliability, etc.

    For toy kernels, this can be little more than "programmer discipline" -- the developer imposes these policies by his coding style. An ideal programmer
    (in a non-malevolent environment) can provide these features at compile
    time and, if the binary never changes, forever thereafter.

    As the environment becomes less hospitable -- either malicious actors or non-ideal developers -- the OS has to take deliberate steps to *impose*
    these constraints. You'd likely *not* want a rogue/buggy task to be
    able to twiddle some I/O that it has no purpose accessing just as you'd
    not want it to be able to twiddle data that doesn't "belong" to it. Or,
    fork an unlimited number of copies of itself, each consuming "modest"
    resources but, exhausting all available resources due to their multiplicity
    of number.

    [We're not even addressing the non-malevolent application that just tries to game the system to access more resources than it would otherwise be allowed.]

    For this reason, *monolithic* kernels (even multithreaded) get very large
    and complex; damn near *everything* has to reside under the control of the kernel -- device drivers, communication systems, memory management and allocation, timing services, etc. And, all of the APIs to access and manipulate them.

    And, because these components have to cooperate with each other, they
    have implicit trust between themselves -- implicit EXPOSURE to each
    other's shortcomings (bugs).

    If you decompose the kernel into smaller cooperating ISOLATED services, then the efficiency of communication (and data sharing) between them becomes important. X can't just peek at something of interest in Y, even though both are conceptually part of the same kernel.

    But, the more you do, the more your implementation
    affects overall performance. If faulting in a page is expensive,
    then apps won't want to incur that cost and will try to wire-down
    everything at the start. Of course, not possible for everyone to
    do so without running out of resources. And, the poor folks who
    either didn't know they *could* do that (or, felt responsible enough
    NOT to impose their greed on others) end up taking the bigger hits.

    When you look at big projects, productivity falls dramatically
    as the complexity increases (app->driver->os, etc.)

    But that's because human communication only goes so far.

    Communication also happens *in* the "system". What happens if THIS
    ftn invocation doesn't happen (client/server is offline, crashed,
    busy, etc.)? How do we handle that case locally? Is there a way
    to recover? Or, do we just abend?

    But people like things they can see, even if that's an illusion.
    The best computer is the one you don't even know is there until it
    stops working.

    And, why so many folks sit down and write code without having any formal >>>>>> documents to describe WHAT the code must do and the criteria against >>>>>> which it will be tested/qualified! <rolls eyes>

    If you start with the test harness you get more done. Once you have the >>>>> prototype up, then write the documents. You'll simply know more that >>>>> way.

    I approach it from the top, down. Figure out what the *requirements*
    are (how can you design a test harness if you don't know what you'll be >>>> testing or the criteria that will be important?).

    "I'm making an <x>. It uses interfaces <y,z...>." That's how you know.

    How do you know it will use those i/fs? What if there are no existing
    APIs to draw upon (you're making a motor controller and have never made one >> before; you're measuring positions of an LVDT instrumented actuator; you're...)

    For a motor controller, chances are reeally good it'll be PWM. etc, etc.

    It may be a DC servo motor driven with DC or PWM. The position of the
    rotor may be monitored and controlled. Or, just its angular velocity.
    A stepper motor may be driven with "DC" or PWM. The position of the rotor
    may be deduced with an encoder, monitoring back EMF, etc. Or, this may be indicated indirectly as thru a gearbox (in which case, you'll have to understand backlash in the gears). As you are directly commutating the
    stator field, you have to be aware of the maximum acceleration profile
    that the motor and mechanism can support, etc.

    Each of these approaches has different hardware requirements and control algorithms.

    The rest is serialization.

    When you'r3e making *things*, you are often dealing with sensors and mechanisms
    that are novel to a particular application...

    But you can usually sketch that out in one paragraph. Not always. IMO,
    when you use "big process", chances are you'll over do it because your
    risk perception is not well calibrated. Plus you have to break
    things up...

    Many problems aren't simple. Many actuators control multiple parameters and sensors respond to multiple factors. Yet, your requirements document won't (likely) speak in terms of composites but, rather, independent variables.

    For a given type of granulation ("powdered pills"), the mass of the resulting compressed tablet is proportional to the force experienced at a given
    dimension (thickness).

    But, so is the hardness.

    And, so is the likeliness to "capping" (the top of the tablet "popping off" because air was trapped in the granulation as it was compressed too quickly
    or too deep in the die).

    How to fix? We can change the rate of tablet production to give more
    time for entrapped air to escape. Or, longer dwell times to get a better "weld". Or, move the position in the die at which the tablet is
    formed *up* (as long as we don't constrain the amount of "fill" that
    this new position can support). Or, change the speed of the feeder.
    Or, indicate that the granulation should be reformulated. Or, ...

    What's the optimal strategy given that the manufacturer wants:
    - maximize profit
    - minimize risk/exposure/loss

    Maybe you need message sequence charts for use cases. No problem.

    <snip>

    That's a dangerous place.

    It's a THRILLING place! It forces you to really put forth your best effort. >> And, causes you to think of what you *really* want to do -- instead of just >> hammering out a schematic and a bunch of code.

    It is fun but not the good sort of fun :)

    I disagree. Some of the most exciting projects I've worked on are those
    that have had the most insane constraints.

    Too often, people are lazy thinkers and don't push themselves to find better/smarter solutions -- unless they MUST.

    Given: Three soda bottles. Three chopsticks.

    Problem: Place the chopsticks on the bottles in such a way that they
    don't touch the ground.

    There are a variety of trivial solutions -- the most obvious is to
    arrange the bottles in an equilateral triangle formation and span
    each pair of bottles with a chopstick.

    Problem2: Same as above but with just *two* bottles.

    Again, a variety of trivial solutions -- span the two with a chopstick and balance the remaining two on this one (may be tricky if the chopsticks are round instead of square cross section).

    Problem3: Same as above but with just *one* bottle.

    ...

    Note that solutions 2 and 3 apply equally well to problem 1 -- yet likely weren't presented because there were simpler solutions (were they really
    any simpler?)

    Why not lay the bottle(s) on their sides and balance the chopsticks
    on them THAT way? Or, try to stuff all of them in the necks of the
    bottle(s)?

    There are lots of similar examples but each goes to point out how
    "lazy" most solvers are.


    <snip>
    Nicely put - at least you could quantify the costs.

    Don't you quantify the load you're going to put on a power supply before
    you design the power supply? It's called *design* not "hacking".

    Well of course. Might be off but you do what you can. Or you use a
    bench supply and measure it.

    And hacking can be quite legit.

    [of *course* I had already done the math, that's called engineering!
    a "programmer" would have just written the code and wondered why
    the system couldn't meet it's performance goals]

    The final product often ran at 100% of real-time as it had to react to the >>>> actions of the user; you can't limit how quickly a user drags a barcode >>>> label across a photodiode (no, you can't put a "barcode reader" in the >>>> design as that costs recurring dollars!)

    I'm familiar.

    It got to be a favorite exercise to see how quickly and *continuously* you >> could swipe a barcode label across the sensor to see if the code would crash,
    misread, etc. The specification was for 100 inches per second (which really >> isn't that fast if you are deliberately trying to *be* fast) which would
    generate edges/events at ~15KHz. When an opcode fetch takes O(1us), you
    quickly run out of instructions between events!

    Seems like a peripheral might have been in order. Of course, if you're
    the peripheral...

    Peripheral adds cost. Why not a peripheral to manage the battery charging?
    And another for the serial comms? And another to run the display? Scan the keypad?

    I.e., what role should be "left" for THE processor?

    If a user (not something that you can control) engages in a behavior
    that could result in a fault, data corruption, etc. then all you
    can reasonably be expected to do is NOT fault! You can't reach out and
    slap him upside the head! (and *crashing* is always in bad form!)

    [Of course, everything ground to a halt during such abuse -- but, picked up >> where it left off as soon as your arm got tired! :> ]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Sat Aug 13 23:53:33 2022
    On 08/13/2022 04:39 PM, Les Cargill wrote:

    A blower means you'd better do something about fuel delivery too.


    That doesn't get mentioned much but yeah.

    Always the problem with shade tree engineering. 'That shiny new Carter
    4-barrel is impressive. Is that tired old mechanical fuel pump going to
    be able to feed it?'


    Many variations. 'That high lift Edelbrock cam is really something. Now
    about the rest of the gear.'

    Dyno runs get pricey.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 23:49:06 2022
    On 08/13/2022 12:12 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I built a CDI for my family's vehicle but, other than testing it, dad
    wasn't
    keen on having something between the points and coil that he didn't grok.
    (a shame as it was really well executed and packaged in a EMI/RFI-sealed box).

    I built one, which let to an interesting search for ferrite cores. I
    finally tracked down one of IBM's many spinoffs in Kingston. The
    paperwork was too much of a hassle so he gifted me with a bag of 'samples'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Aug 14 00:00:10 2022
    On 08/13/2022 07:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
    If you are pregnant, then you are a female. (implication)
    If you are a female, then you are pregnant. (converse)
    If you are not pregnant, then you are not a female. (inverse)
    If you are not female, then you are not pregnant. (contrapositive)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetralemma

    Old Nagarjuna tends to gum up the works. The Mūlamadhyamikakārikā isn't
    very light reading.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 13 23:44:47 2022
    On 08/13/2022 12:05 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Were I charged with such a task, I'd define a virtual middleware to host
    the app. Then, have a second team responsible for keeping that middleware supported on newer browsers. This eliminates the problem of having the application developers constantly trying to adjust to shifting sand.

    That tends to be part of the framework. Life is getting simpler since
    most browers with the exception of Firefox and its derivatives are
    chromium based. Even Microsoft finally realized they can't write
    browsers for sour owl shit. The chromium based Edge is decent.

    Then there's the Apple world. Even if you shoehorn something other that
    Safari on an Apple device it will use Apple's WebKit, which they don't
    seem to care much about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 23:05:32 2022
    On 8/13/2022 10:44 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/13/2022 12:05 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Were I charged with such a task, I'd define a virtual middleware to host
    the app. Then, have a second team responsible for keeping that middleware >> supported on newer browsers. This eliminates the problem of having the
    application developers constantly trying to adjust to shifting sand.

    That tends to be part of the framework. Life is getting simpler since most browers with the exception of Firefox and its derivatives are chromium based. Even Microsoft finally realized they can't write browsers for sour owl shit. The chromium based Edge is decent.

    Then there's the Apple world. Even if you shoehorn something other that Safari
    on an Apple device it will use Apple's WebKit, which they don't seem to care much about.

    But you're still dependent on someone else's "vision" for *their* product
    (the browser).

    We developed a pricey piece of kit (~megadollar) and one of the vendors
    of a software package that we were using opted to make significant
    changes to it.

    And, NOT let us purchase more licenses for the "old version".

    So, the codebase was essentially trashed and we had to start over.
    And Manglement still didn't learn from the experience (too much
    of a panic to get a new version of the product to market based on
    the new licensed package to worry about what we'll do *next*!)

    I'm always at the mercy of the hardware (components) I select.
    But, I can be careful in minimizing my exposure needlessly.
    And, choose sole-source components for which there are "similar"
    offerings available -- even if not "compatible".

    E.g., I check my code against three different hardware platforms:
    SPARC, x86 and ARM -- just to try to catch any non-obvious dependencies
    that I may have baked into an implementation. There's no guarantee that
    I'll catch all of those. But, it's far better than picking *one*
    platform and, later, discovering that you've got a boatload of
    ties to that of which you were unaware.

    [FWIW, when MULTICS was decommissioned, there were estimates that
    it would cost upwards of 30 man years to port the code -- for just
    the OS -- to a modern architecture. What fool would have *relied*
    on a 36b architecture? Where's the abstraction??]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Aug 13 23:07:18 2022
    On 8/13/2022 10:49 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/13/2022 12:12 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I built a CDI for my family's vehicle but, other than testing it, dad
    wasn't
    keen on having something between the points and coil that he didn't grok.
    (a shame as it was really well executed and packaged in a EMI/RFI-sealed
    box).

    I built one, which let to an interesting search for ferrite cores. I finally tracked down one of IBM's many spinoffs in Kingston. The paperwork was too much
    of a hassle so he gifted me with a bag of 'samples'.

    At the time, I was working for a company that made navigation equipment
    for boats. So, the core was easy to come by -- as was a nice shielded box
    to put everything in! (cuz you can't have a noisey power supply in the same box as a sensitive receiver!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Aug 14 12:23:59 2022
    On 08/14/2022 12:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 10:49 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/13/2022 12:12 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I built a CDI for my family's vehicle but, other than testing it, dad
    wasn't
    keen on having something between the points and coil that he didn't
    grok.
    (a shame as it was really well executed and packaged in a EMI/RFI-sealed >>> box).

    I built one, which let to an interesting search for ferrite cores. I
    finally tracked down one of IBM's many spinoffs in Kingston. The
    paperwork was too much of a hassle so he gifted me with a bag of
    'samples'.

    At the time, I was working for a company that made navigation equipment
    for boats. So, the core was easy to come by -- as was a nice shielded box
    to put everything in! (cuz you can't have a noisey power supply in the
    same
    box as a sensitive receiver!)

    Ah, for the days of Packard 440 ignition wire and non-resistor plugs.
    The neighbors didn't have to wonder when you got home as the 11 o'clock
    news on the TV went to hell.

    It kept the neighborhood hams riled up too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Aug 14 12:46:15 2022
    On 08/14/2022 12:05 AM, Don Y wrote:
    So, the codebase was essentially trashed and we had to start over.
    And Manglement still didn't learn from the experience (too much
    of a panic to get a new version of the product to market based on
    the new licensed package to worry about what we'll do *next*!)

    Our legacy codebase was developed on AIX. What used to be Mortice Kern
    Systems but was bought by PTC offered a cross platform solution similar
    to the open source Cygwin. PTC also improved the Windows X server and
    has been keeping it current. The legacy products run fine on Windows 11,
    if having a dated appearance in the Motif GUIs. We shut down the last
    RS6000 box years ago and I'm not sure it would still boot but the
    codebase builds and runs on Linux as well.


    I'm always at the mercy of the hardware (components) I select.
    But, I can be careful in minimizing my exposure needlessly.
    And, choose sole-source components for which there are "similar"
    offerings available -- even if not "compatible".

    When you are a software vendor you don't get to select the hardware. In
    the public safety field it's increasingly difficult to select a browser
    or install third party packages, hence the 'zero footprint' requirement.
    You play with the cards you're dealt.

    Browsers can present challenges but nothing to the extent of developing
    an app to run on an iPad, an Android table, and a Windows desktop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Aug 14 12:06:04 2022
    On 8/14/2022 11:46 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/14/2022 12:05 AM, Don Y wrote:
    So, the codebase was essentially trashed and we had to start over.
    And Manglement still didn't learn from the experience (too much
    of a panic to get a new version of the product to market based on
    the new licensed package to worry about what we'll do *next*!)

    Our legacy codebase was developed on AIX. What used to be Mortice Kern Systems
    but was bought by PTC offered a cross platform solution similar to the open source Cygwin. PTC also improved the Windows X server and has been keeping it current. The legacy products run fine on Windows 11, if having a dated appearance in the Motif GUIs. We shut down the last RS6000 box years ago and I'm not sure it would still boot but the codebase builds and runs on Linux as well.

    Imagine they opted not to offer additional licenses for the product line
    they bought out. Instead, coercing you to adopt some OTHER product offering that they want to "push", going forward. I.e., you no longer can purchase
    the components (platform/library) that your codebase requires to operate.

    I'm always at the mercy of the hardware (components) I select.
    But, I can be careful in minimizing my exposure needlessly.
    And, choose sole-source components for which there are "similar"
    offerings available -- even if not "compatible".

    When you are a software vendor you don't get to select the hardware. In the public safety field it's increasingly difficult to select a browser or install
    third party packages, hence the 'zero footprint' requirement. You play with the
    cards you're dealt.

    But you can adopt a design approach that isolates much of your effort
    from changes to that platform. And, gives you increased "portability" (platform independence).

    Of course, the rub is that you have to invest to create a portable platform on which to build (like a Hardware Abstraction Layer).

    Browsers can present challenges but nothing to the extent of developing an app
    to run on an iPad, an Android table, and a Windows desktop.

    In each case, someone else is controlling the underlying technology and
    can do so to suit *their* needs without concern for yours. If they are
    an 800 pound gorilla, even moreso -- you're stuck fighting to convince
    your customers to stick with an existing, working implementation when
    the gorilla is coercing them to "move forward" (AWAY from you).

    This is why apps keep getting rewritten, rebugged, etc.

    If you can define a VM on which to operate, then everything above
    that level can mature and reap the benefits of evolution, bug fixes, etc. regardless of the changes going on beneath.

    You then have a separate problem of building that platform atop the
    (changing) underlying system that others are controlling.

    E.g., my current design *requires* a PMMU -- or something that can
    be made to LOOK like one. But, it doesn't care what the page size
    is or how *many* different page sizes are supported. Those become
    efficiency issues (e.g., if page sizes were 1TB, then the value
    of the PMMU vanishes and the platform is effectively disqualified).

    But, an application needn't care; virtual memory is allocated in
    page-size multiples so if your request takes 1 page or 500, your
    code doesn't change! The API to the underlying system insulates
    you from all this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Les Cargill@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Aug 14 14:00:50 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 6:38 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 4:32 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    <snip>

    Performance of a kernel affects every job running on the machine.
    You write a sloppy app? <shrug> YOUR app sucks -- but no one
    else's.

    If you have a simple kernel, then it need not be efficient as it
    doesn't "do much".

    A kernel is "swap()" ( register exchange ) plus libraries. swap()
    is irreducible; libraries less so.

    Looks like big voodoo but it's not. Now, throw in a MMU and life
    gets interesting...

    A kernel (OS) is responsible for managing the hardware resources of
    a machine/system for its users (applications). The extent that this
    is done -- and the number of "users" (which may be *one* -- think DOS) involved is part of the requirements document.

    [FWIW, the Linux *kernel* is now ~30MSLOC -- a wee bit more than
    "swapping registers"]


    That's just mission creep. Those, by the way, are the libraries to which
    I refer. BTW, scheduler and that sort of thing goes along with swap()
    handily.

    You're conflating the deployment case with the thing itself. To be fair,
    the Linux community encourages this - with "kernel loadable
    modules are part of the OS" and being completely driven by the bundling process.

    It didn't used to be that way - pSOS could be quite minimal and used
    the much more flexible microkernel approach. It's just territorial
    imperative and conforming to the Unix method - eminently reasonable but
    clearly less manageable.

    <snip>

    For this reason, *monolithic* kernels (even multithreaded) get very large
    and complex; damn near *everything* has to reside under the control of the kernel -- device drivers, communication systems, memory management and allocation, timing services, etc. And, all of the APIs to access and manipulate them.


    That's been shown to be a tactical error for decades.

    <snip>
    For a motor controller, chances are reeally good it'll be PWM. etc, etc.

    It may be a DC servo motor driven with DC or PWM. The position of the
    rotor may be monitored and controlled. Or, just its angular velocity.
    A stepper motor may be driven with "DC" or PWM. The position of the rotor may be deduced with an encoder, monitoring back EMF, etc. Or, this may be indicated indirectly as thru a gearbox (in which case, you'll have to understand backlash in the gears). As you are directly commutating the stator field, you have to be aware of the maximum acceleration profile
    that the motor and mechanism can support, etc.

    Each of these approaches has different hardware requirements and control algorithms.


    Each can also have an equivalent API and the decision about what's where
    is a deployment decision. You write a PWM "driver", a DC "driver", use
    the same ioctl() or reasonable facsimile thereof and go.

    There should be separation of concern w.r.t peripherals and the
    actual system operation.

    The rest is serialization.

    When you'r3e making *things*, you are often dealing with sensors and
    mechanisms
    that are novel to a particular application...

    But you can usually sketch that out in one paragraph. Not always. IMO,
    when you use "big process", chances are you'll over do it because your
    risk perception is not well calibrated. Plus you have to break
    things up...

    Many problems aren't simple. Many actuators control multiple parameters
    and
    sensors respond to multiple factors. Yet, your requirements document won't (likely) speak in terms of composites but, rather, independent variables.


    Maybe. See also "separation of concern".

    <snip>


    Seems like a peripheral might have been in order. Of course, if you're
    the peripheral...

    Peripheral adds cost Why not a peripheral to manage the battery charging?
    And another for the serial comms? And another to run the display? Scan
    the
    keypad?

    I.e., what role should be "left" for THE processor?


    The role that retires the best amount of risk. How much NRE is your organization up for? There's certainly a place in the world for
    obsessively shaving cents, or hundredths of cents off cost but I
    prefer a better class of customer.

    Cycles are extremely cheap and getting cheaper.

    <snip>

    --
    Les Cargill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Les Cargill on Sun Aug 14 15:08:11 2022
    On 8/14/2022 12:00 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 6:38 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 4:32 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
    <snip>

    Performance of a kernel affects every job running on the machine.
    You write a sloppy app? <shrug> YOUR app sucks -- but no one
    else's.

    If you have a simple kernel, then it need not be efficient as it
    doesn't "do much".

    A kernel is "swap()" ( register exchange ) plus libraries. swap()
    is irreducible; libraries less so.

    Looks like big voodoo but it's not. Now, throw in a MMU and life
    gets interesting...

    A kernel (OS) is responsible for managing the hardware resources of
    a machine/system for its users (applications). The extent that this
    is done -- and the number of "users" (which may be *one* -- think DOS)
    involved is part of the requirements document.

    [FWIW, the Linux *kernel* is now ~30MSLOC -- a wee bit more than
    "swapping registers"]

    That's just mission creep. Those, by the way, are the libraries to which I refer. BTW, scheduler and that sort of thing goes along with swap()
    handily.

    Everything is arguably "mission creep". Why doesn't the application do
    it's own virtual memory management? Or, elect when to relinquish control of the processor to another task? As well as choosing WHICH task? Why not
    make all data global and let tasks pick and choose what they want to
    access -- and know what NOT to access? Why not decode your own network packets?

    You put services in the kernel to improve reliability, fairness, structure, ensure correctness, protect from abuse/misuse, etc.

    I'm sure I could expose the registers of a disk controller to the application and let *it* read bytes off the disk. And, come up with a CONVENTION by
    which it shared that hardware resource with other tasks that might have
    similar needs -- at the volume and file levels. Likewise, cooperate
    to ensure your messages out the serial port aren't intermixed with the characters from another task's messages for that same device.

    You're conflating the deployment case with the thing itself. To be fair,
    the Linux community encourages this - with "kernel loadable
    modules are part of the OS" and being completely driven by the bundling process.

    I don't run Linux and don't believe it to be a realistic solution to most
    of the designs I've created over the years. Can you spell "bloat"?

    Pick some set of kernel modules and statically link them to the kernel.
    Call that your kernel. It's the set of services you rely on to provide abstraction, sharing, protection, etc. so your application doesn't need
    to manage its own memory space, arbitrate for use of peripherals,
    protect data structures, SHARE data, etc.

    It's overhead. So, you only include the features that "add value"
    to your design. That value may take the form of reducing development
    time/cost or improving product reliability, troubleshooting, etc.
    You don't see many 1N914's with heat sinks! :>

    It didn't used to be that way - pSOS could be quite minimal and used
    the much more flexible microkernel approach. It's just territorial imperative and conforming to the Unix method - eminently reasonable but
    clearly less manageable.

    As above, you don't *need* any kernel/OS. My first product was implemented super-loop, foreground-background and worked reliably. But, it was a closed appliance and was brittle; modifications had to be aware of everything that MIGHT run in the device to ensure there were no conflicts (in time, space, etc.)

    I moved on to designing multitasking devices with "zero overhead" scheduling (literally a few instruction fetches to switch tasks, no scheduler, no synchronization primitives, a single stack, etc.). Lots of bang-for-the-buck (because there was so little "buck"). But, essentially just as brittle as
    a non-multitasking solution; you still needed to know a lot about the
    product in order to make modifications -- even small ones.

    From there, truly preemptive multitasking, separate stacks, arbitrated access to physical devices, etc. E.g., I could say:
    DEBUG("Now starting task foo at t = %d\n", time)
    in each of N tasks and be assured that complete messages would appear
    on the debug console; not parts of message 1 interleaved with message 3
    or message 8.

    And physical address spaces that exceeded the logical space seemlessly
    managed by the "runtime" (with compiler assist).

    In each case, the developer is freed from dealing with detail that is immaterial to solving the problem at hand. Imagine having to grow your own silicon before you could put a rectifier in a circuit!

    <snip>

    For this reason, *monolithic* kernels (even multithreaded) get very large
    and complex; damn near *everything* has to reside under the control of the >> kernel -- device drivers, communication systems, memory management and
    allocation, timing services, etc. And, all of the APIs to access and
    manipulate them.

    That's been shown to be a tactical error for decades.

    Yet that's still the way most are designed. It's a lot easier to design
    in a big, fat playground where you can grab anything that you want
    without thinking about *partitioning* ahead of time! (Of course, just
    as easily screw with things that haven't been partitioned!)

    My latest RTOS is "decomposed". Everything is a service (even the
    scheduler is separate from the "kernel"). Easier to design (reliably).
    But much harder to get lots of performance -- all those protection domains being crossed.

    But, the advantages outweigh the costs. And, the balance will be even more pronounced as hardware gets cheaper and faster (driving the costs down further).

    <snip>
    For a motor controller, chances are reeally good it'll be PWM. etc, etc.

    It may be a DC servo motor driven with DC or PWM. The position of the
    rotor may be monitored and controlled. Or, just its angular velocity.
    A stepper motor may be driven with "DC" or PWM. The position of the rotor >> may be deduced with an encoder, monitoring back EMF, etc. Or, this may be >> indicated indirectly as thru a gearbox (in which case, you'll have to
    understand backlash in the gears). As you are directly commutating the
    stator field, you have to be aware of the maximum acceleration profile
    that the motor and mechanism can support, etc.

    Each of these approaches has different hardware requirements and control
    algorithms.

    Each can also have an equivalent API and the decision about what's where
    is a deployment decision. You write a PWM "driver", a DC "driver", use
    the same ioctl() or reasonable facsimile thereof and go.

    So you solve ALL of the problems before solving the first? Yeah, that's
    going to be an easy sell to your client/manglement. :>

    There should be separation of concern w.r.t peripherals and the
    actual system operation.

    The rest is serialization.

    When you'r3e making *things*, you are often dealing with sensors and
    mechanisms
    that are novel to a particular application...

    But you can usually sketch that out in one paragraph. Not always. IMO,
    when you use "big process", chances are you'll over do it because your
    risk perception is not well calibrated. Plus you have to break
    things up...

    Many problems aren't simple. Many actuators control multiple parameters and >> sensors respond to multiple factors. Yet, your requirements document won't >> (likely) speak in terms of composites but, rather, independent variables.

    Maybe. See also "separation of concern".

    <snip>

    Seems like a peripheral might have been in order. Of course, if you're
    the peripheral...

    Peripheral adds cost Why not a peripheral to manage the battery charging?
    And another for the serial comms? And another to run the display? Scan the >> keypad?

    I.e., what role should be "left" for THE processor?

    The role that retires the best amount of risk. How much NRE is your organization up for? There's certainly a place in the world for
    obsessively shaving cents, or hundredths of cents off cost but I
    prefer a better class of customer.

    If your business model allows for and encourages design reuse, then
    having spent the time/money to design/develop X means you now have
    X available for use in other products "for free".

    If you purchase a peripheral that implements X, then you are forever
    paying for that vendor's development/maintenance -- which may address
    needs that aren't important to *you*! Do you really care about
    3-of-9 barcodes? Or, UPC? Or... (but the vendor has bundled all of
    that into his product X offering)

    Cycles are extremely cheap and getting cheaper.

    And problems are large and getting larger!

    In the 80's a video game was ~40KB of code and ran on an 8b processor
    at less than 1 VAX MIPS. Now, they are gigabytes and need gigahertz,
    multicore processors and video adapters that make many *processors* pale
    in comparison.

    Is the game that much more complex? Or, is it just "dressed up"
    considerably?

    For 100 (?) years, a doorbell was a simple power-button-annunciator circuit. Now, it's a camera that recognizes *who* is at the door and notifies you
    of their presence -- even if you are thousands of miles away -- in real time and provides a bidirectional audio link to allow you to interact with that visitor as he approaches your door!

    Surveillance (CCTV) cameras used to just record to 1/2" tape or display
    live video on a monitor. Now, they analyze the scene to identify active entities in the scene, ascertain threat level, do real-time reporting/notification, etc.

    Dumb little "islands" (appliances) are soon going to be a thing of the past.
    If you don't/can't talk to and integrate with other devices (likely made
    by other manufacturers), you'll find yourself with dwindling market share.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Aug 14 22:32:38 2022
    On 08/14/2022 01:06 PM, Don Y wrote:
    But you can adopt a design approach that isolates much of your effort
    from changes to that platform. And, gives you increased "portability" (platform independence).

    Of course, the rub is that you have to invest to create a portable
    platform on
    which to build (like a Hardware Abstraction Layer).

    Yes, 20 years ago we could have invested in a portable platform to solve
    a problem that never happened. The code base already contains some unnecessarily complex code that anticipated needs that were never
    needed. As Don Schlitz wrote:

    "You got to know when to hold 'em,
    Know when to fold 'em,
    Know when to walk away,
    And know when to run."

    Modern operating systems are Hardware Abstraction Layers. 40 years ago I
    was familiar with the nuances of the WD1793. Today I don't have a clue
    how data winds up on a M.2 SSD or if the box even has a M.2 for that
    matter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Aug 14 23:01:07 2022
    On 8/14/2022 9:32 PM, rbowman wrote:
    Modern operating systems are Hardware Abstraction Layers.

    That's *one* aspect. But, they often provide mechanisms that have no direct bearing on the underlying hardware. E.g., my RTOS is an object-based capability driven system. Ideally, support for protection domains lets
    me ensure the security of the capabilities but one could design similar
    with less robust guarantees in the absence of protection domains.

    40 years ago I was
    familiar with the nuances of the WD1793. Today I don't have a clue how data winds up on a M.2 SSD or if the box even has a M.2 for that matter.

    Designing deeply embedded devices means I'm often "down in the weeds" trying
    to make sense of some bit of hardware -- in *or* out of the processor.

    Processors, nowadays, are far more complex than even the most complex peripherals/support chips from years past. 1000+ pp datasheets are
    not uncommon.

    Plus, a lot of devices aren't quite as "esoterically" designed as they would have been in the past; it's more like an "80% solution" to most problems (counters/timers are a prime example) where the i's aren't always dotted
    nor t's crossed.

    And, if you're designing a non-toy OS (anything more than a simple "task switcher"), you need to survey the range of potential devices before settling on the abstractions that you want to implement, lest you make choices that aren't particularly portable.

    OTOH, what you can get for a few dollars is amazing! Definitely worth any hassles or blemishes in implementation!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Aug 16 10:27:46 2022
    On 2022-08-13, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 8:39 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 09:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 8:34 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 08:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    mmm-hmmm. The covid gap has messed up my time sense but I think we're >>>> close to 3 years into developing what amounts to an Angular SPA.
    That's 3 to 4 1/2 full time programmers and 3 to 4 testers. I count
    myself as 1/2 since most of what I've done is integrating the ESRI
    4.20 Javascript API into one of the panels and other odd tasks while
    doing enhancements and fixes in the legacy code.

    That's not an "appLET". You're developing a real application suite/system >>> *under* a Java framework. I'd wager most JS "coders" are busy knocking
    out what could reasonably be called cookie-cutter "web sites". Not much >>> "engineering", there! (hence the use of *coders*)

    NOT Java!!! That was a very unfortunate naming. This is a replacement for a >> legacy Java app that was the original attempt at a cross platform solution. >> That became an albatross when the browsers dropped support for Java applets >> (and ActiveX) because of the security holes.

    It is a challenge to replace a suite of legacy programs with a browser based >> application but many of the RFP's have been specifying zero footprint. It
    certainly makes updates a lot easier, particularly for mobile resources.

    I don't believe you can write a portable, browser-based application with
    any guarantee of long-term (10 years?) support. Browsers are continually evolving; in three years we may be on *U*HTML 37.

    https://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/

    Possibly no guarantee.... but that's 16 years.
    that would run on IE4 and whatever version Netscape was back then.
    (and still works)

    Were I charged with such a task, I'd define a virtual middleware to host
    the app. Then, have a second team responsible for keeping that middleware supported on newer browsers. This eliminates the problem of having the application developers constantly trying to adjust to shifting sand.

    So far as I know, if you read the standards and exploit them in as
    much at they are consistently implemented by browser suppliers you
    end up with high reliability scripts. if you go chasing latest browser
    features not so much.


    --
    Jasen.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Tue Aug 16 10:57:14 2022
    On 08/16/2022 04:27 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    So far as I know, if you read the standards and exploit them in as
    much at they are consistently implemented by browser suppliers you
    end up with high reliability scripts. if you go chasing latest browser features not so much.

    Counter examples are browsers removing NPAPI or Flash support for
    security reasons. 20 years ago a Java applet was a reasonable approach
    to developing a responsive web page.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Aug 16 10:28:11 2022
    On 8/16/2022 9:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/16/2022 04:27 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    So far as I know, if you read the standards and exploit them in as
    much at they are consistently implemented by browser suppliers you
    end up with high reliability scripts. if you go chasing latest browser
    features not so much.

    Counter examples are browsers removing NPAPI or Flash support for security reasons. 20 years ago a Java applet was a reasonable approach to developing a responsive web page.

    It's not just pushing client side processing to increase responsiveness.
    How would you, for example, run a virtual machine of your own design (e.g.,
    to host an application) *in* a browser? Each "tab" is an independent (isolated) VM.

    So, to build a tabbed interface, you'd have to do it *within* a single
    session -- *or*, require server-side coordination of those multiple
    sessions. Anything that "tab #1" needed to know about "tab #2" would
    require a round-trip to the server, each time tab #2 dicked with something.

    [To be truly amusing, imagine opening two different browsers on the same machine. Should they *ever* be permitted to "co-operate"?]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Tue Aug 16 10:17:11 2022
    On 8/16/2022 3:27 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-08-13, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 8/13/2022 8:39 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 09:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 8/12/2022 8:34 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 08/12/2022 08:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I've never written a JS applet but can't imagine it would be
    much more than an afternoon excercise (for most "pages"). Esp
    given the highly developed frameworks that make it a cut and
    paste sort of ordeal.

    mmm-hmmm. The covid gap has messed up my time sense but I think we're >>>>> close to 3 years into developing what amounts to an Angular SPA.
    That's 3 to 4 1/2 full time programmers and 3 to 4 testers. I count
    myself as 1/2 since most of what I've done is integrating the ESRI
    4.20 Javascript API into one of the panels and other odd tasks while >>>>> doing enhancements and fixes in the legacy code.

    That's not an "appLET". You're developing a real application suite/system >>>> *under* a Java framework. I'd wager most JS "coders" are busy knocking >>>> out what could reasonably be called cookie-cutter "web sites". Not much >>>> "engineering", there! (hence the use of *coders*)

    NOT Java!!! That was a very unfortunate naming. This is a replacement for a >>> legacy Java app that was the original attempt at a cross platform solution. >>> That became an albatross when the browsers dropped support for Java applets >>> (and ActiveX) because of the security holes.

    It is a challenge to replace a suite of legacy programs with a browser based
    application but many of the RFP's have been specifying zero footprint. It >>> certainly makes updates a lot easier, particularly for mobile resources.

    I don't believe you can write a portable, browser-based application with
    any guarantee of long-term (10 years?) support. Browsers are continually
    evolving; in three years we may be on *U*HTML 37.

    https://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/

    Possibly no guarantee.... but that's 16 years.
    that would run on IE4 and whatever version Netscape was back then.
    (and still works)

    Were I charged with such a task, I'd define a virtual middleware to host
    the app. Then, have a second team responsible for keeping that middleware >> supported on newer browsers. This eliminates the problem of having the
    application developers constantly trying to adjust to shifting sand.

    So far as I know, if you read the standards and exploit them in as
    much at they are consistently implemented by browser suppliers you
    end up with high reliability scripts. if you go chasing latest browser features not so much.

    If it "still works" then it has deliberately kept it's implementation tied
    to the past. Browsers evolve because of perceived needs. Deliberately avoiding new features limits what you can do in an application to whatever
    was possible "in ages gone by".

    Once you drink the kool-aid, you're forever stuck with the possibility
    of customer A running NewBrowser while customer B clings to OldBrowser.

    My current design has to accommodate hardware and software "additions" incrementally added to an installation (deployment) WITHOUT requiring
    all existing hardware/software to be "upgraded" (to the latest release).
    It does this by supporting multiple interface versions for each piece
    of software. So, an application/device can (late-) bind to whatever
    version of an interface it needs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Aug 16 10:58:29 2022
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:28:26 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

    [To be truly amusing, imagine opening two different browsers on the same machine. Should they *ever* be permitted to "co-operate"?]

    No need to imagine, I'm doing it. The main cooperation required, is just that I can drag an address from the browser that mangles the page, to the
    icon in the dock of the other browser, and see if that helps. Often, it does.

    Latest issue: light-grey font on white. Gotta cut-and-paste into a text editor
    to see it, multiple browsers don't help. I certainly DO miss the old 'show source'
    feature, which allowed some disentanglements in the past.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 16 11:18:26 2022
    On 8/16/2022 10:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 16, 2022 at 10:28:26 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

    [To be truly amusing, imagine opening two different browsers on the same
    machine. Should they *ever* be permitted to "co-operate"?]

    No need to imagine, I'm doing it. The main cooperation required, is just that
    I can drag an address from the browser that mangles the page, to the
    icon in the dock of the other browser, and see if that helps. Often, it does.

    Latest issue: light-grey font on white. Gotta cut-and-paste into a text editor
    to see it, multiple browsers don't help. I certainly DO miss the old 'show source'
    feature, which allowed some disentanglements in the past.

    No, I mean having two "tabs" of the same browser-based *application* running
    in different browsers.

    E.g., An application that automates preparation of a tax return. Tab 1 shows my 1040 and tab 2 shows my schedule A. Changes to schedule A in tab 2 are automatically reflected on the 1040 in tab 1.

    Now, have tab 1 be in an Edge browser and tab 2 be in Firefox.

    This is contrary to the security model the browser is supposed to
    provide; tab 1 shouldn't be able to interact with tab 2 (except
    via client-side storage/cookies). Being able to bridge the
    protection domain that a different application imposes should
    (presumably) be "impossible" -- except for super cookies?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From none) (albert@21:1/5 to bill.sloman@ieee.org on Sun Aug 28 15:25:33 2022
    In article <4e05ee3b-9e69-4f3d-8fa6-371be61fcf7bn@googlegroups.com>,
    Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
    On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 5:58:34 AM UTC+10, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >> > happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
    power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
    were afraid of them.



    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    The problem isn't the age difference, but the attitude difference. I'm 79, and I happily use my computer to fill out my
    tax information.

    My father wouldn't have a computer in the house, but as soon as he died, I got my mother to buy one. It took her a while
    to get to use it. For about a year my nephews - her grandchildren - pulled my e-mails off her computer every week and
    typed in her responses, but she watched them do and could eventually do it for herself and compose her own replies, and we
    swapped e-mails every day for about a decade until senile dementia hit her.

    This was before the IBM pc. In the Netherlands they gave presents at December 5th accompanied with a poem of sorts. (The original St. Nicolas).
    A niece caught me writing these poems on the CPM machine (Osborne).
    This was the first time she saw text processing in the flesh.
    Boy, was she upset! Blasphemy.

    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    Groetjes Albert
    --
    "in our communism country Viet Nam, people are forced to be
    alive and in the western country like US, people are free to
    die from Covid 19 lol" duc ha
    albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to none albert on Sun Aug 28 06:45:36 2022
    On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 11:25:41 PM UTC+10, none albert wrote:
    In article <4e05ee3b-9e69-4f3d...@googlegroups.com>,
    Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
    On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 5:58:34 AM UTC+10, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    In article <jko0b1...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
    says...

    Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff >> > happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
    almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the >> > power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they >> > were afraid of them.

    It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
    and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
    and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
    vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
    by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
    engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
    first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
    I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
    world and taught myself how to get around with one.

    The problem isn't the age difference, but the attitude difference. I'm 79, and I happily use my computer to fill out my
    tax information.

    My father wouldn't have a computer in the house, but as soon as he died, I got my mother to buy one. It took her a while
    to get to use it. For about a year my nephews - her grandchildren - pulled my e-mails off her computer every week and
    typed in her responses, but she watched them do and could eventually do it for herself and compose her own replies, and we
    swapped e-mails every day for about a decade until senile dementia hit her.

    This was before the IBM pc. In the Netherlands they gave presents at December 5th accompanied with a poem of sorts. (The original St. Nicolas).

    I know about it, but my wife did all our poem writing - she was much better at it than I was.

    A niece caught me writing these poems on the CPM machine (Osborne).
    This was the first time she saw text processing in the flesh.
    Boy, was she upset! Blasphemy.

    Bizzare. But the ancient Greeks used to think that writing down poems was equally dubious - you were supposed to memorise them.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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