• cleaner air has effectively boosted the total warming from carbon dioxi

    From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 21 08:22:25 2022
    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution kills
    people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Thu Jul 21 09:37:51 2022
    On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 17:22:28 UTC+2, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    fake

    -We all love Carbon, we all love CO2


    -CO2 is welcome
    -CO2 is Plant Food
    -Plants are Animal Food
    -Animals are Human Food

    -More CO2 more Human Food
    -to end the world hunger

    https://sci.electronics.design.narkive.com/eMVDUFoy/we-all-love-carbon-we-all-love-co2



    Water (H2O) in the gaseous state is the only greenhouse gas due to its high heat of phase shift fluid - gas
    ===

    We need condensation nuclei to turn microdroplets of water vapor into raindrops

    So we need dust from industrial chimneys to make it rain
    --

    I joined project by US EPA 40 years ago to study emissions from industrial chimneys,
    by reading data from monitoring stations and studying the wind rose to draw pollution charts and maps.

    We were highly successful to eliminate 10,000 industrial chimneys in Europe
    to make "Air Clean"

    ---
    The most abundant greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere, listed in decreasing order of average global mole fraction, are:[14][15]

    Water vapor (H
    2O)
    Carbon dioxide (CO
    2)
    Methane (CH
    4)
    Nitrous oxide (N
    2O)
    Ozone (O
    3)
    Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs and HCFCs)
    Hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs)
    Perfluorocarbons (CF
    4, C
    2F
    6, etc.), SF
    6, and NF
    3


    Role of water vapor
    Increasing water vapor in the stratosphere at Boulder, Colorado

    Water vapor accounts for the largest percentage of the greenhouse effect, between 36% and 66% for clear sky conditions and between 66% and 85% when including clouds.[21] Water vapor concentrations fluctuate regionally, but human activity does not
    directly affect water vapor concentrations except at local scales, such as near irrigated fields. Indirectly, human activity that increases global temperatures will increase water vapor concentrations, a process known as water vapor feedback.[22] T
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com on Thu Jul 21 13:42:02 2022
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isnt to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. Air pollution kills
    people. We need clean air. There is no question about that. Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming



    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jul 21 14:32:44 2022
    On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 22:42:19 UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.
    @JanCermak is completely wrong

    KIT-IPF-The IPF - Team
    https://www.ipf.kit.edu/english/staff_cermak_jan.php

    Prof. Dr. Jan Cermak. Professor; room: 20.40-024, 435-107 20.40, 435; ... Since 9/2016: Professor of Geophysical Remote Sensing at Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) 10/2011-8/2016: Professor of Climatology at Ruhr-Universität Bochum; 7 - 9/2012:
    Visiting scientist, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), Boulder, CO, USA ...

    KIT-IPF-Das IPF - Team
    Mehr Informationen auf der englisch-sprachigen Seite.. KIT – Die Forschungsuniversität in de…

    Jan CERMAK | Professor | PhD | Karlsruhe Institute of … https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Cermak-2

    Jan Cermak Karlsruhe Institute of Technology | KIT · Institute of Meteorology and Climate Research PhD Connect with experts in your field Join ResearchGate to contact this researcher and connect...

    since
    ===Water vapor accounts for the largest percentage of the greenhouse effect, between 36% and 66% for clear sky conditions and between 66% and 85% when including clouds.[21]

    and if we add water fluid > water vapor phase shift heat consuming infrared solar energy,
    so

    Water (H2O) as fluid + Water (H2O) as vapor + Water (H2O) as ice , account for 99.99% of the greenhouse effect
    ===========================================================================================

    ===
    The major non-gas contributor to Earth's greenhouse effect, clouds, also absorb and emit infrared radiation and thus have an effect on greenhouse gas radiative properties. Clouds are water droplets or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere.[25][21]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to a a on Thu Jul 21 14:50:19 2022
    On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 23:32:46 UTC+2, a a wrote:
    On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 22:42:19 UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some
    solid numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.
    @JanCermak is completely wrong

    KIT-IPF-The IPF - Team
    https://www.ipf.kit.edu/english/staff_cermak_jan.php

    Prof. Dr. Jan Cermak. Professor; room: 20.40-024, 435-107 20.40, 435; ... Since 9/2016: Professor of Geophysical Remote Sensing at Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) 10/2011-8/2016: Professor of Climatology at Ruhr-Universität Bochum; 7 - 9/2012:
    Visiting scientist, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), Boulder, CO, USA ...

    KIT-IPF-Das IPF - Team
    Mehr Informationen auf der englisch-sprachigen Seite.. KIT – Die Forschungsuniversität in de…

    Jan CERMAK | Professor | PhD | Karlsruhe Institute of … https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Cermak-2

    Jan Cermak Karlsruhe Institute of Technology | KIT · Institute of Meteorology and Climate Research PhD Connect with experts in your field Join ResearchGate to contact this researcher and connect...

    since
    ===Water vapor accounts for the largest percentage of the greenhouse effect, between 36% and 66% for clear sky conditions and between 66% and 85% when including clouds.[21]

    and if we add water fluid > water vapor phase shift heat consuming infrared solar energy,
    so

    Water (H2O) as fluid + Water (H2O) as vapor + Water (H2O) as ice , account for 99.99% of the greenhouse effect
    ===========================================================================================

    ===
    The major non-gas contributor to Earth's greenhouse effect, clouds, also absorb and emit infrared radiation and thus have an effect on greenhouse gas radiative properties. Clouds are water droplets or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere.[25][21]



    -----The major non-gas contributor to Earth's greenhouse effect, clouds, also absorb and emit infrared radiation and thus have an effect on greenhouse gas radiative properties. Clouds are water droplets or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere.[25][21]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jul 21 14:49:01 2022
    On Thursday, 21 July 2022 at 22:42:19 UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Cermak-2

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jul 21 18:31:35 2022
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 6:42:19 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    China mostly burns it's own coal. Australia does sell it some but China imports less than 10% of the coal it burns.

    If our government stopped digging it up and selling it to China we'd probably find ourselves with a new government. The US attitude to "banana republics" is pretty representative of what big economies do to smaller economies who don't feel like playing
    along.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove the stack scrubbers.

    Why? Germany isn't "ramping up" their coal plants - they are just burning more coal than natural gas, because they don't like buying natural gas from an increasingly war-like Russia. They will ramp them down again when they have installed more renewable
    energy generation (which produce cheaper power that burning fossil carbon, but takes time and capital to manufacture and install).

    Africa is getting power any way it can. Solar cells produce cheaper power than any other source, and lend themselves to local production, though you do need batteries. Setting up a nation-wide grid is an unnecessary extravagance.

    John Larkin is stuck in some kind of intellectual time warp where the only way to get energy involves burning fossil carbon - probably because he believes the climate change denial propaganda he seems to read, and post links to here from time to time.
    Maybe he has ambitions of being crowned Mr. Gullible?

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jul 21 18:52:54 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 4:42:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.

    They're going to do this once the political instability hits; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_geoengineering

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Thu Jul 21 19:11:03 2022
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 11:52:57 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 4:42:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some
    solid numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.

    They're going to do this once the political instability hits; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_geoengineering

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termination_Shock_(novel)

    It's science fiction, but more realistic than most of the genre, though the Dutch Royal family might not recognise themselves in the characters depicted.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com on Thu Jul 21 20:15:44 2022
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 18:52:54 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 4:42:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some solid
    numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isnt to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. Air pollution kills
    people. We need clean air. There is no question about that. Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.

    They're going to do this once the political instability hits; >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_geoengineering

    Just paint all the airport runways white and move the sensors farther
    from the planes and the record temps will go away. Most of the records
    are at airports.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Thu Jul 21 20:56:14 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 8:15:55 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    Just paint all the airport runways white and move the sensors farther
    from the planes and the record temps will go away. Most of the records
    are at airports.

    The sensed temperatures accurately record climate changes that affect crops and forests.
    It certainly isn't an artifact of runway proximity.

    White paint isn't a fix.

    Yeah, mainly 'the records' reported in news accounts are from well-understood weather
    monitoring available to the public, often sited at airports. A neighbor posts his weather station
    results, too (but I'm guessing the local newspaper doesn't consult that record).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Thu Jul 21 23:40:21 2022
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 1:15:55 PM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 18:52:54 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 4:42:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    Just paint all the airport runways white and move the sensors farther from the planes and the record temps will go away. Most of the records are at airports.

    Just move John Larkin away from stuff he doesn't understand. It would save him from making an ass of himself quite so often.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From a a@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Jul 22 05:19:03 2022
    On Friday, 22 July 2022 at 05:15:55 UTC+2, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 18:52:54 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 4:42:19 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    This has been made quite clear for the past 20 years, spawned by the work of an Israeli scientist looking at 50 year records of agricultural pan evaporation data. German climate researchers are finally using real satellite data and putting some
    solid numbers to it.

    "Whatever the exact contribution, it is sure to grow as air quality continues to improve around the world. The answer isn’t to keep polluting, says Jan Cermak, a remote-sensing scientist at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. “Air pollution
    kills people. We need clean air. There is no question about that.” Instead, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases need to be redoubled, he says."

    https://www.science.org/content/article/paradox-cleaner-air-now-adding-global-warming
    Of course, China and India and Africa are simultaneously ramping up
    both polluting and making gobs of CO2. Australia sells them the coal.

    As Germany ramps up their coal power plants, maybe they should remove
    the stack scrubbers.

    They're going to do this once the political instability hits; >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_geoengineering
    Just paint all the airport runways white and move the sensors farther
    from the planes and the record temps will go away. Most of the records
    are at airports.
    exactly what California did, painting roofs white

    Albedo effect matters

    ----

    Measure of the reflectivity of a surface
    Albedo is a measure of the reflectivity of a surface. The albedo effect when applied to the Earth is a measure of how much of the Sun's energy is reflected back into space. Overall, the Earth's albedo has a cooling effect. (The term ‘albedo’ is
    derived from the Latin for ‘whiteness’).
    The albedo effect and global warming skepticalscience.com/earth-albedo-effect.htm skepticalscience.com/earth-albedo-effect.htm



    What is the albedo effect on land?
    The albedo effect on land. Albedo is an expression of the ability of surfaces to reflect sunlight (heat from the sun). Light-coloured surfaces return a large part of the sunrays back to the atmosphere (high albedo). Dark surfaces absorb the rays from the
    sun (low albedo).

    Albedo effect – Norsk Polarinstitutt
    www.npolar.no/en/fact/albedo/
    :What is the albedo effect on land?
    What is the albedo of a dark object in space?
    Albedo Effect Astronomers define the reflectivity of an object in space using a term called albedo. This is the amount of electromagnetic radiation that reflects away, compared to the amount that gets absorbed. A perfectly reflective surface would get an
    albedo score of 1, while a completely dark object would have an albedo of 0.

    Albedo Effect - Universe Today
    www.universetoday.com/39937/albedo-effect/
    :What is the albedo of a dark object in space?
    What is an albedo score?
    This is the amount of electromagnetic radiation that reflects away, compared to the amount that gets absorbed. A perfectly reflective surface would get an albedo score of 1, while a completely dark object would have an albedo of 0.

    Albedo Effect - Universe Today
    www.universetoday.com/39937/albedo-effect/
    :What is an albedo score?
    What is the relationship between illumination and albedo?
    Albedo is not directly dependent on illumination because changing the amount of incoming light proportionally changes the amount of reflected light, except in circumstances where a change in illumination induces a change in the Earth's surface at that
    location (e. g. through melting of reflective ice).

    Albedo - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to a a on Fri Jul 22 19:08:38 2022
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 5:19:07 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

    [about climate change]
    exactly what California did, painting roofs white

    Albedo effect matters

    Measure of the reflectivity of a surface
    Albedo is a measure of the reflectivity of a surface. The albedo effect when applied to the Earth is a measure of how much of the Sun's energy is reflected back into space. Overall, the Earth's albedo has a cooling effect. (The term ‘albedo’ is
    derived from the Latin for ‘whiteness’).

    False assumption here is that the 'cooling effect' (really reduction of heating) during daytime is the whole story.
    During nighttime, albedo inhibits the shedding of heat by radiation into the black night sky,
    which makes a net effect of... zero, until you do a LOT more analysis and have some
    special paint that does anti-greenhouse things.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 22 19:42:28 2022
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 10:08:41 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 5:19:07 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

    [about climate change]
    exactly what California did, painting roofs white

    Albedo effect matters
    Measure of the reflectivity of a surface
    Albedo is a measure of the reflectivity of a surface. The albedo effect when applied to the Earth is a measure of how much of the Sun's energy is reflected back into space. Overall, the Earth's albedo has a cooling effect. (The term ‘albedo’ is
    derived from the Latin for ‘whiteness’).
    False assumption here is that the 'cooling effect' (really reduction of heating) during daytime is the whole story.
    During nighttime, albedo inhibits the shedding of heat by radiation into the black night sky,
    which makes a net effect of... zero, until you do a LOT more analysis and have some
    special paint that does anti-greenhouse things.

    White surfaces don't get that hot that they need to shed any heat at night...white surfaces work. You don't think so? Paint your vinyl siding black and see how long it lasts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Fri Jul 22 23:25:14 2022
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 10:08:41 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 5:19:07 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

    [about climate change]
    exactly what California did, painting roofs white

    Albedo effect matters
    Measure of the reflectivity of a surface
    Albedo is a measure of the reflectivity of a surface. The albedo effect when applied to the Earth is a measure of how much of the Sun's energy is reflected back into space. Overall, the Earth's albedo has a cooling effect. (The term ‘albedo’ is
    derived from the Latin for ‘whiteness’).
    False assumption here is that the 'cooling effect' (really reduction of heating) during daytime is the whole story.
    During nighttime, albedo inhibits the shedding of heat by radiation into the black night sky,
    which makes a net effect of... zero, until you do a LOT more analysis and have some
    special paint that does anti-greenhouse things.

    White surfaces don't get that hot that they need to shed any heat at night...white surfaces work. You don't think so? Paint your vinyl siding black and see how long it lasts.

    The error here, is you assume it was heat stored in the object, not in the ambient air bathing all
    the objects in the vicinity, that was to be 'shed' at night. The effect of an albedo
    enhancement is to reduce BOTH the emission and absorption of heat by radiation; that's why
    thermos flasks are silvered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 03:03:19 2022
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:25:17 AM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 10:08:41 PM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 5:19:07 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

    [about climate change]
    exactly what California did, painting roofs white

    Albedo effect matters
    Measure of the reflectivity of a surface
    Albedo is a measure of the reflectivity of a surface. The albedo effect when applied to the Earth is a measure of how much of the Sun's energy is reflected back into space. Overall, the Earth's albedo has a cooling effect. (The term ‘albedo’
    is derived from the Latin for ‘whiteness’).
    False assumption here is that the 'cooling effect' (really reduction of heating) during daytime is the whole story.
    During nighttime, albedo inhibits the shedding of heat by radiation into the black night sky,
    which makes a net effect of... zero, until you do a LOT more analysis and have some
    special paint that does anti-greenhouse things.

    White surfaces don't get that hot that they need to shed any heat at night...white surfaces work. You don't think so? Paint your vinyl siding black and see how long it lasts.
    The error here, is you assume it was heat stored in the object, not in the ambient air bathing all
    the objects in the vicinity, that was to be 'shed' at night. The effect of an albedo
    enhancement is to reduce BOTH the emission and absorption of heat by radiation; that's why
    thermos flasks are silvered.

    Air doesn't have much thermal capacity and doesn't have much heat to exchange with much more thermally massive materials like water and masonry.
    https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1005#:~:text=Air%20has%20a%20heat%20capacity,energy%20stored%20in%20the%20water.

    Urban Heat: Can White Roofs Help Cool World’s Warming Cities? https://e360.yale.edu/features/urban-heat-can-white-roofs-help-cool-the-worlds-warming-cities

    You are right about radiation, air isn't a very good conductor either, especially when it's not moving.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Sat Jul 23 11:37:20 2022
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:03:22 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:25:17 AM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:

    White surfaces don't get that hot that they need to shed any heat at night...white surfaces work. You don't think so? Paint your vinyl siding black and see how long it lasts.

    The error here, is you assume it was heat stored in the object, not in the ambient air bathing all
    the objects in the vicinity, that was to be 'shed' at night. The effect of an albedo
    enhancement is to reduce BOTH the emission and absorption of heat by radiation; that's why
    thermos flasks are silvered.

    Air doesn't have much thermal capacity and doesn't have much heat to exchange with much more thermally massive materials like water and masonry.
    https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1005#:~:text=Air%20has%20a%20heat%20capacity,energy%20stored%20in%20the%20water.

    Urban Heat: Can White Roofs Help Cool World’s Warming Cities? https://e360.yale.edu/features/urban-heat-can-white-roofs-help-cool-the-worlds-warming-cities

    You are right about radiation, air isn't a very good conductor either, especially when it's not moving.

    But a whole diurnal cycle (day) without breeze isn't normal. Air, 15 lbs per square inch, and soil, and other objects,
    have significant heat capacity, and readily exchange heat; it isn't surface wind that radiates to
    the sky, but objects. The breeze in my window does get cooler at night; there's plenty of movement of
    heat (by convection) and fresh bits of air adjacent to objects do pick up heat, by conduction, over
    very small distances (conductivity of air-to-air doesn't dominate the effect).

    Radiation of heat into the sky is exactly equal to insolation heat inflow, at the steady-state temperature
    we deem 'temperate'. One cannot ignore either of the two equal effects. The 'albedo-works' argument
    has that flaw.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 12:00:07 2022
    On Saturday, 23 July 2022 at 20:37:23 UTC+2, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:03:22 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:25:17 AM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:

    White surfaces don't get that hot that they need to shed any heat at night...white surfaces work. You don't think so? Paint your vinyl siding black and see how long it lasts.

    The error here, is you assume it was heat stored in the object, not in the ambient air bathing all
    the objects in the vicinity, that was to be 'shed' at night. The effect of an albedo
    enhancement is to reduce BOTH the emission and absorption of heat by radiation; that's why
    thermos flasks are silvered.

    Air doesn't have much thermal capacity and doesn't have much heat to exchange with much more thermally massive materials like water and masonry.
    https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1005#:~:text=Air%20has%20a%20heat%20capacity,energy%20stored%20in%20the%20water.

    Urban Heat: Can White Roofs Help Cool World’s Warming Cities? https://e360.yale.edu/features/urban-heat-can-white-roofs-help-cool-the-worlds-warming-cities

    You are right about radiation, air isn't a very good conductor either, especially when it's not moving.
    But a whole diurnal cycle (day) without breeze isn't normal. Air, 15 lbs per square inch, and soil, and other objects,
    have significant heat capacity, and readily exchange heat; it isn't surface wind that radiates to
    the sky, but objects. The breeze in my window does get cooler at night; there's plenty of movement of
    heat (by convection) and fresh bits of air adjacent to objects do pick up heat, by conduction, over
    very small distances (conductivity of air-to-air doesn't dominate the effect).

    Radiation of heat into the sky is exactly equal to insolation heat inflow, at the steady-state temperature
    we deem 'temperate'. One cannot ignore either of the two equal effects. The 'albedo-works' argument
    has that flaw.
    no chance to win Nobel Prize in Short-Term Climate Changes since traders in Carbon emissions control the world

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 19:21:20 2022
    On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 4:37:23 AM UTC+10, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:03:22 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:25:17 AM UTC-4, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, July 22, 2022 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:

    White surfaces don't get that hot that they need to shed any heat at night...white surfaces work. You don't think so? Paint your vinyl siding black and see how long it lasts.

    The error here, is you assume it was heat stored in the object, not in the ambient air bathing all
    the objects in the vicinity, that was to be 'shed' at night. The effect of an albedo
    enhancement is to reduce BOTH the emission and absorption of heat by radiation; that's why
    thermos flasks are silvered.

    Air doesn't have much thermal capacity and doesn't have much heat to exchange with much more thermally massive materials like water and masonry.
    https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1005#:~:text=Air%20has%20a%20heat%20capacity,energy%20stored%20in%20the%20water.

    Urban Heat: Can White Roofs Help Cool World’s Warming Cities? https://e360.yale.edu/features/urban-heat-can-white-roofs-help-cool-the-worlds-warming-cities

    You are right about radiation, air isn't a very good conductor either, especially when it's not moving.

    But a whole diurnal cycle (day) without breeze isn't normal. Air, 15 lbs per square inch, and soil, and other objects,
    have significant heat capacity, and readily exchange heat; it isn't surface wind that radiates to
    the sky, but objects. The breeze in my window does get cooler at night; there's plenty of movement of
    heat (by convection) and fresh bits of air adjacent to objects do pick up heat, by conduction, over
    very small distances (conductivity of air-to-air doesn't dominate the effect).

    Radiation of heat into the sky is exactly equal to insolation heat inflow, at the steady-state temperature
    we deem 'temperate'.

    Of course, quite a bit of the heat being radiated into the sky is being radiated from a layer of gas fairly high in the sky - the effective ration altitude for a given wavelength - where photons of that particular wavelength finally have an even chance
    to make it out into the universe, rather than being absorbed by some greenhouse gas or other and getting re-radiated in some arbitrary direction. This is how greenhouse gases warm the surface of the planet.

    One cannot ignore either of the two equal effects. The 'albedo-works' argument has that flaw.

    Albedo is frequently wavelength dependent, which further complicates the argument. Snow and ice are very reflective at visible wavelengths, less so in the near infra-red.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)