• OT: COVID experiences

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 05:52:17 2022
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jul 18 08:13:58 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 5:52:38 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    Must have been exposed to the virus, but no symptom so far. One-shot Moderna 2/21.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Mon Jul 18 08:42:01 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it
    left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year;
    that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J
    because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore
    arm.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Mon Jul 18 16:22:15 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1@dont-email.me>:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for TBC, test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 15:37:18 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 08:42:01 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it
    left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year;
    that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J
    because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore
    arm.

    I had the J+J shot in 2021 as well, but I wasn't blackmailed at all.
    Vaccines are the most powerful medical treatment ever invented, by
    orders of magnitude.

    In round numbers, the risk of modern vaccination is of order a part
    per million, comparable to commercial air travel.

    In the US, COVID has killed a million people. Sounds like a lot, but
    the population is 330 million, so the raw risk is of order 0.33%, or
    3,030 ppm. Which well exceeds 1 ppm.

    So I take all booster shots offered. So far, Pfizer and Pfizer again.
    I also had Omicron at XMAS 2021 - just a scratchy throat. The best
    protection is the combination of natural and vaccination-induced
    immunity.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 14:03:47 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:37:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 08:42:01 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it
    left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year;
    that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J >>because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore
    arm.

    I had the J+J shot in 2021 as well, but I wasn't blackmailed at all.
    Vaccines are the most powerful medical treatment ever invented, by
    orders of magnitude.

    Getting the actual infection is probably better, and I had it before a
    vaccine was available. I've been fine since then, not even a cold.

    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.


    In round numbers, the risk of modern vaccination is of order a part
    per million, comparable to commercial air travel.

    In the US, COVID has killed a million people. Sounds like a lot, but
    the population is 330 million, so the raw risk is of order 0.33%, or
    3,030 ppm. Which well exceeds 1 ppm.

    Likely over-counted. As in death by motorcycle included.


    So I take all booster shots offered. So far, Pfizer and Pfizer again.
    I also had Omicron at XMAS 2021 - just a scratchy throat. The best >protection is the combination of natural and vaccination-induced
    immunity.

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.


    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From TTman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jul 18 22:07:29 2022
    On 18/07/2022 13:52, Don Y wrote:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT).  Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases?  Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I had it , lasted 4 days. Really sore throat, bad cough and that's it.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jul 18 16:22:17 2022
    On 07/18/2022 03:03 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.

    I'd go for a can of Chef Boyardee ravioli heated over a smoldering cow
    chip first...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 16:50:01 2022
    mandag den 18. juli 2022 kl. 14.52.38 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    Had about month ago (I assume, friends I was with the week before tested positive with a home test)
    Stayed in bed feeling like crap for most of a week, with no taste. Took few weeks to feel sorta normal again

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Platt@21:1/5 to xx@yy.com on Mon Jul 18 16:31:10 2022
    In article <49ibdhp8e2vea92okbvus1se4jtrbbjpp7@4ax.com>,
    John Larkin <xx@yy.com> wrote:

    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian >restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.

    That sounds more like bribery than blackmail.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 18:59:02 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:22:17 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/18/2022 03:03 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian
    restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.

    I'd go for a can of Chef Boyardee ravioli heated over a smoldering cow
    chip first...

    GM has the best lisagna on the planet. And the veal picatta is
    amazing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Jul 18 19:04:50 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc.. Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease. UK NHS has
    determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Jul 18 19:11:36 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:42:12 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it
    left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year;
    that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J
    because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore
    arm.

    J+J is not an RNA vaccine, it is a viral vector. My recent reading is the government is on the verge of abandoning it.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/janssen.html
    This is probably because you have enough antibody response to take that monkey virus out of commission before it can infect any cells and produce antigen to any significant degree.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jul 18 19:43:09 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 5:03:57 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:


    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Vaccines can be dangerous for some people, but as long as their numbers are ppm range, it will still be administered to the general public.



    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 00:23:22 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries).

    Vaccines give you antibodies and killer-T cells. Both make it harder for the Covd-19 virus to multiply so you are likely to end up with a lower viral load for a shorter time. You are likely to feel less sick while you are infected, and probably won't
    infect as many other people. If you have a weaker than usual immune system - as does happen as you get older, the vaccine won't do as much for you as it would for younger, healthier people.

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc.. Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...

    Jan Panteltje doesn't know much, and his claims shouldn't be taken all that seriously.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease.

    It might be., but medical people tend restrict the term "asymptomatic disease" to people who have tested positive for the Covid-19 virus. Back before there were any vaccines around, about 15% of cases were asymptomatic, and they were infectious, if not
    for all that long.

    UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same.

    They aren't.

    But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    You can be, but if you haven't got symptoms you haven't got much of a viral load, and you don't stay infections for more than few days.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com on Tue Jul 19 10:51:13 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in <f4d87864-8184-4005-9b8c-05af761812c6n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..

    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for >TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. >Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via
    low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic
    disease. UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with >influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID >are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence
    of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    That is just fear mongering bull to get people to be pricked dead by bloodcloths
    No symptoms no problems no illness!!!.
    People die all around me I note! (not).
    Even if you tested positive to covid, that will go away in a week or so or you die,
    It is all about the Medical Industrial Complex and they do not give a shit how many they
    kill with their experiments.
    I got it long ago, before all this hype, when I opened a parcel from China
    from ebay, couched 2 times and that was it.
    Likely more people suffer damage from those vaccines than from covid.
    Many older ones that had a shot simply died or had severe side effects, youger ones too (heart failures).
    But must sell!!!!
    Loads of vaccines had to be destroyed here recently no longer needed and over time,
    Herd immunity..
    Maybe be a problem for China as it did not build hurd immunity and eventually it will damage their economy
    no matter what .
    Earthling!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com on Tue Jul 19 04:41:08 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease. UK NHS has
    determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    Most people get over Covid in a week or two. Nobody gets over AIDS.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 05:15:57 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries).

    Vaccines give you antibodies and killer-T cells. Both make it harder for the Covd-19 virus to multiply so you are likely to end up with a lower viral load for a shorter time. You are likely to feel less sick while you are infected, and probably won't
    infect as many other people. If you have a weaker than usual immune system - as does happen as you get older, the vaccine won't do as much for you as it would for younger, healthier people.

    Vaccines impart immune *memory* to the recipient, which speeds up the response to challenge by the real pathogen if and when it occurs. It's the enhanced speed of immune response that prevents the disease taking hold.

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    Jan Panteltje doesn't know much, and his claims shouldn't be taken all that seriously.
    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease.
    It might be., but medical people tend restrict the term "asymptomatic disease" to people who have tested positive for the Covid-19 virus. Back before there were any vaccines around, about 15% of cases were asymptomatic, and they were infectious, if not
    for all that long.
    UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same.

    Whatever...

    They aren't.
    But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."
    You can be, but if you haven't got symptoms you haven't got much of a viral load, and you don't stay infections for more than few days.

    That statement is more wishful thinking than fact.


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Jul 19 05:24:27 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:01:10 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <f4d87864-8184-4005...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc.. >>
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for >TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies.
    Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via >low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic
    disease. UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with >influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID >are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence >of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."
    That is just fear mongering bull to get people to be pricked dead by bloodcloths
    No symptoms no problems no illness!!!.
    People die all around me I note! (not).
    Even if you tested positive to covid, that will go away in a week or so or you die,
    It is all about the Medical Industrial Complex and they do not give a shit how many they
    kill with their experiments.
    I got it long ago, before all this hype, when I opened a parcel from China from ebay, couched 2 times and that was it.
    Likely more people suffer damage from those vaccines than from covid.
    Many older ones that had a shot simply died or had severe side effects, youger ones too (heart failures).
    But must sell!!!!
    Loads of vaccines had to be destroyed here recently no longer needed and over time,
    Herd immunity..
    Maybe be a problem for China as it did not build hurd immunity and eventually it will damage their economy
    no matter what .
    Earthling!!

    Believe what you want, fence post.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Jul 19 05:17:51 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:41:19 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc.. >> Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease. UK NHS has
    determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."
    Most people get over Covid in a week or two. Nobody gets over AIDS.

    The antiviral therapeutic drugs pull people out of AIDS all the time...they get "over" it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 05:53:27 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Vaccines give you antibodies and killer-T cells. Both make it harder for the Covd-19 virus to multiply so you are likely to end up with a lower viral load for a shorter time. You are likely to feel less sick while you are infected, and probably won't
    infect as many other people. If you have a weaker than usual immune system - as does happen as you get older, the vaccine won't do as much for you as it would for younger, healthier people.

    Vaccines impart immune *memory* to the recipient, which speeds up the response to challenge by the real pathogen if and when it occurs.

    And what form does this "memory" take?

    It's the enhanced speed of immune response that prevents the disease taking hold.

    So what does this "memory" consist of? And how does it "speed up the immune response" - presumably by delivering more circulating antibodies, and more killer T-cells into the blood stream?

    We can swap vague generalities until the cows come home, but you are sounding more like Flyguy than anybody who knows what he is talking about.

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...

    Jan Panteltje doesn't know much, and his claims shouldn't be taken all that seriously.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease.

    It might be., but medical people tend restrict the term "asymptomatic disease" to people who have tested positive for the Covid-19 virus. Back before there were any vaccines around, about 15% of cases were asymptomatic, and they were infectious, if
    not for all that long.

    UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same.

    Whatever...

    So you didn't know. They aren't.

    But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    You can be, but if you haven't got symptoms you haven't got much of a viral load, and you don't stay infections for more than few days.

    That statement is more wishful thinking than fact.

    Since you clearly can't be bothered to dig out the facts, the wishful thinking is all yours. We've actually been through this, but you've forgotten the details and have reverted to your original wishful thinking.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 06:05:20 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:17:55 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:41:19 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease. UK NHS
    has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    Most people get over Covid in a week or two. Nobody gets over AIDS.

    The antiviral therapeutic drugs pull people out of AIDS all the time...they get "over" it.

    The right mix of anti-viral theraputic drugs, if administer for long enough, has been known to completely cure AIDS.

    The AIDS virus is rather better at protecting itself from the immune system than the Covid-19 virus. Long Covid doesn't seem to due to persistent viral infection, but rather seems to be caused by damage done during Covid-19 infection, which persists even
    after the virus has been eliminated from the body.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 06:07:35 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    <snip>
    Vaccines give you antibodies and killer-T cells. Both make it harder for the Covd-19 virus to multiply so you are likely to end up with a lower viral load for a shorter time. You are likely to feel less sick while you are infected, and probably won'
    t infect as many other people. If you have a weaker than usual immune system - as does happen as you get older, the vaccine won't do as much for you as it would for younger, healthier people.

    Vaccines impart immune *memory* to the recipient, which speeds up the response to challenge by the real pathogen if and when it occurs.
    And what form does this "memory" take?
    It's the enhanced speed of immune response that prevents the disease taking hold.
    So what does this "memory" consist of? And how does it "speed up the immune response" - presumably by delivering more circulating antibodies, and more killer T-cells into the blood stream?

    If you don't know that by now, you're hopeless. The science is clearly established and its efficacy was obvious to even the 17th century Turkish inoculation vendors.



    We can swap vague generalities until the cows come home, but you are sounding more like Flyguy than anybody who knows what he is talking about.
    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...

    Jan Panteltje doesn't know much, and his claims shouldn't be taken all that seriously.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease.

    It might be., but medical people tend restrict the term "asymptomatic disease" to people who have tested positive for the Covid-19 virus. Back before there were any vaccines around, about 15% of cases were asymptomatic, and they were infectious, if
    not for all that long.

    UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same.

    Whatever...
    So you didn't know. They aren't.

    They most certainly are nearly identical if you look at the span of the confidence intervals associated with this near impossible to measure statistic.


    But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    You can be, but if you haven't got symptoms you haven't got much of a viral load, and you don't stay infections for more than few days.

    That statement is more wishful thinking than fact.
    Since you clearly can't be bothered to dig out the facts, the wishful thinking is all yours. We've actually been through this, but you've forgotten the details and have reverted to your original wishful thinking.

    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 06:14:25 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:05:24 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:17:55 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:41:19 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    <snip>
    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease. UK NHS
    has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    Most people get over Covid in a week or two. Nobody gets over AIDS.

    The antiviral therapeutic drugs pull people out of AIDS all the time...they get "over" it.
    The right mix of anti-viral theraputic drugs, if administer for long enough, has been known to completely cure AIDS.

    "Complete" cures by antiviral drugs are so rare as to be near nonexistent. Radiation therapy has done it but the treatment is extreme.


    The AIDS virus is rather better at protecting itself from the immune system than the Covid-19 virus. Long Covid doesn't seem to due to persistent viral infection, but rather seems to be caused by damage done during Covid-19 infection, which persists
    even after the virus has been eliminated from the body.

    HIV protects itself from the human immune response by destroying the ability of the immune system to even mount a response via the CD4 which it obliterates.


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 07:33:24 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:07:38 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    <snip>
    Vaccines give you antibodies and killer-T cells. Both make it harder for the Covd-19 virus to multiply so you are likely to end up with a lower viral load for a shorter time. You are likely to feel less sick while you are infected, and probably
    won't infect as many other people. If you have a weaker than usual immune system - as does happen as you get older, the vaccine won't do as much for you as it would for younger, healthier people.

    Vaccines impart immune *memory* to the recipient, which speeds up the response to challenge by the real pathogen if and when it occurs.
    And what form does this "memory" take?
    It's the enhanced speed of immune response that prevents the disease taking hold.
    So what does this "memory" consist of? And how does it "speed up the immune response" - presumably by delivering more circulating antibodies, and more killer T-cells into the blood stream?

    If you don't know that by now, you're hopeless. The science is clearly established and its efficacy was obvious to even the 17th century Turkish inoculation vendors.

    The efficacy is well known. The mechanisms involved have been investigated more recently, but you prefer to rely on vague generalities. I'm calling you out for posting hand-waving non-explanations, and hiding behind 17th century variolation vendors
    doesn't get you off the hook

    We can swap vague generalities until the cows come home, but you are sounding more like Flyguy than anybody who knows what he is talking about.

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...

    Jan Panteltje doesn't know much, and his claims shouldn't be taken all that seriously.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease.

    It might be., but medical people tend restrict the term "asymptomatic disease" to people who have tested positive for the Covid-19 virus. Back before there were any vaccines around, about 15% of cases were asymptomatic, and they were infectious,
    if not for all that long.

    UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same.

    Whatever...

    So you didn't know. They aren't.

    They most certainly are nearly identical if you look at the span of the confidence intervals associated with this near impossible to measure statistic.

    So cite your results. They weren't the last time we dug them out.

    But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    You can be, but if you haven't got symptoms you haven't got much of a viral load, and you don't stay infections for more than few days.

    That statement is more wishful thinking than fact.

    Since you clearly can't be bothered to dig out the facts, the wishful thinking is all yours. We've actually been through this, but you've forgotten the details and have reverted to your original wishful thinking.

    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.

    So you are happy to post vague and misleading generalisations, and hide behind more of the same when you get called on it.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 08:51:46 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:07:38 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    <snip>
    Vaccines give you antibodies and killer-T cells. Both make it harder for the Covd-19 virus to multiply so you are likely to end up with a lower viral load for a shorter time. You are likely to feel less sick while you are infected, and probably
    won't infect as many other people. If you have a weaker than usual immune system - as does happen as you get older, the vaccine won't do as much for you as it would for younger, healthier people.

    Vaccines impart immune *memory* to the recipient, which speeds up the response to challenge by the real pathogen if and when it occurs.
    And what form does this "memory" take?
    It's the enhanced speed of immune response that prevents the disease taking hold.
    So what does this "memory" consist of? And how does it "speed up the immune response" - presumably by delivering more circulating antibodies, and more killer T-cells into the blood stream?

    If you don't know that by now, you're hopeless. The science is clearly established and its efficacy was obvious to even the 17th century Turkish inoculation vendors.
    The efficacy is well known. The mechanisms involved have been investigated more recently, but you prefer to rely on vague generalities. I'm calling you out for posting hand-waving non-explanations, and hiding behind 17th century variolation vendors
    doesn't get you off the hook
    We can swap vague generalities until the cows come home, but you are sounding more like Flyguy than anybody who knows what he is talking about.

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like the flu"?

    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc..
    Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...

    Jan Panteltje doesn't know much, and his claims shouldn't be taken all that seriously.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease.

    It might be., but medical people tend restrict the term "asymptomatic disease" to people who have tested positive for the Covid-19 virus. Back before there were any vaccines around, about 15% of cases were asymptomatic, and they were infectious,
    if not for all that long.

    UK NHS has determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same.

    Whatever...

    So you didn't know. They aren't.

    They most certainly are nearly identical if you look at the span of the confidence intervals associated with this near impossible to measure statistic.
    So cite your results. They weren't the last time we dug them out.
    But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."

    You can be, but if you haven't got symptoms you haven't got much of a viral load, and you don't stay infections for more than few days.

    That statement is more wishful thinking than fact.

    Since you clearly can't be bothered to dig out the facts, the wishful thinking is all yours. We've actually been through this, but you've forgotten the details and have reverted to your original wishful thinking.

    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.
    So you are happy to post vague and misleading generalisations, and hide behind more of the same when you get called on it.

    And for what purpose, myopic idiot? Even CDC admits their infection rate statistics could be off by 300%. You're just not in the same league here. Go read something else you can't make any sense of.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Jul 19 13:27:02 2022
    On 7/18/2022 11:22 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1@dont-email.me>:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc.. Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.



     Could you teach your people to draw legible schematics?

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jul 19 13:10:43 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 6:22:26 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/18/2022 03:03 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.
    I'd go for a can of Chef Boyardee ravioli heated over a smoldering cow
    chip first...

    I think that was the idea. To filter out the rif-raf like you.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Jul 19 13:10:10 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:41:19 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:
    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?
    I dunno, never got any covid shots and am still alive and can smell etc.. >> Never had a cold or flue in the last 60 years either so...
    When I was very young I got tested in school with a scratch on the arm for TBC,
    test was positive, so they took xrays (twice), nothing found.
    Seems I have anti-bodies against many things.
    I think I know why and how...
    You earthlings are not there yet.

    Antibodies don't necessarily cure you. Everyone with AIDS has HIV antibodies. Antibodies are generally the best diagnostic to detect any infection via low cost ELISA type testing. What you think is immunity is actually asymptomatic disease. UK NHS has
    determined that a full 70% of people infected with influenza there remain asymptomatic as just one example. The stats for COVID are about the same. But guess what? You are infectious to others. Absence of symptoms does not mean "I don't have it."
    Most people get over Covid in a week or two. Nobody gets over AIDS.

    Yes, people get over Covid, except for the ones who don 't. Over 1 million dead in the US. Nothing to worry about. Many, many more with long Covid, but still, nothing to worry about.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology. on Tue Jul 19 17:15:21 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:03:47 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:37:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 08:42:01 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >>wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it
    left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year; >>>that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J >>>because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore
    arm.

    I had the J+J shot in 2021 as well, but I wasn't blackmailed at all. >>Vaccines are the most powerful medical treatment ever invented, by
    orders of magnitude.

    Getting the actual infection is probably better, and I had it before a >vaccine was available. I've been fine since then, not even a cold.

    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian >restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.


    In round numbers, the risk of modern vaccination is of order a part
    per million, comparable to commercial air travel.

    In the US, COVID has killed a million people. Sounds like a lot, but
    the population is 330 million, so the raw risk is of order 0.33%, or
    3,030 ppm. Which well exceeds 1 ppm.

    Likely over-counted. As in death by motorcycle included.


    So I take all booster shots offered. So far, Pfizer and Pfizer again.
    I also had Omicron at XMAS 2021 - just a scratchy throat. The best >>protection is the combination of natural and vaccination-induced
    immunity.

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 15:46:49 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:15:21 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:03:47 -0700, John Larkin ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:37:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 08:42:01 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >>>wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it >>>>left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year; >>>>that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J >>>>because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore >>>>arm.

    I had the J+J shot in 2021 as well, but I wasn't blackmailed at all. >>>Vaccines are the most powerful medical treatment ever invented, by
    orders of magnitude.

    Getting the actual infection is probably better, and I had it before a >>vaccine was available. I've been fine since then, not even a cold.

    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian >>restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.


    In round numbers, the risk of modern vaccination is of order a part
    per million, comparable to commercial air travel.

    In the US, COVID has killed a million people. Sounds like a lot, but
    the population is 330 million, so the raw risk is of order 0.33%, or >>>3,030 ppm. Which well exceeds 1 ppm.

    Likely over-counted. As in death by motorcycle included.


    So I take all booster shots offered. So far, Pfizer and Pfizer again.
    I also had Omicron at XMAS 2021 - just a scratchy throat. The best >>>protection is the combination of natural and vaccination-induced >>>immunity.

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    Joe Gwinn

    https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-know-about-covid-19-vaccines-linked-heart-problems-young-people

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Tue Jul 19 15:40:08 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:15:33 PM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:03:47 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:37:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 08:42:01 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com >>wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it >>>left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year; >>>that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J >>>because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore >>>arm.

    I had the J+J shot in 2021 as well, but I wasn't blackmailed at all. >>Vaccines are the most powerful medical treatment ever invented, by >>orders of magnitude.

    Getting the actual infection is probably better, and I had it before a >vaccine was available. I've been fine since then, not even a cold.

    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian >restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.


    In round numbers, the risk of modern vaccination is of order a part
    per million, comparable to commercial air travel.

    In the US, COVID has killed a million people. Sounds like a lot, but
    the population is 330 million, so the raw risk is of order 0.33%, or >>3,030 ppm. Which well exceeds 1 ppm.

    Likely over-counted. As in death by motorcycle included.


    So I take all booster shots offered. So far, Pfizer and Pfizer again.
    I also had Omicron at XMAS 2021 - just a scratchy throat. The best >>protection is the combination of natural and vaccination-induced >>immunity.

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.
    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    Joe Gwinn

    I got COVID last month. I know exactly when I was exposed because I was sharing a condo for a motorglider meet that we hold annually. My roommate tested positive after 3 days, at which point I self-isolated. He also infected 2-3 others, but not one who
    spent an evening with us. I did not show any symptoms for 3-4 days and had two negative tests. I started showing symptoms on the 5th day and tested positive on the 6th. It took a week and a half to run its course. I felt weak, dizzy, and coughed a lot,
    but never saw a doctor for it. I have had worse colds. Of course, I could not fly at all during the entire meet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Platt@21:1/5 to joegwinn@comcast.net on Tue Jul 19 15:54:00 2022
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev8q3qicfosnegaffg2@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere
    from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same
    issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart -
    and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Tue Jul 19 16:46:44 2022
    On 7/18/2022 4:50 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    Had about month ago (I assume, friends I was with the week before tested positive with a home test)
    Stayed in bed feeling like crap for most of a week, with no taste. Took few weeks to feel sorta normal again

    Age (within a decade)?

    The folks I knew who got it early in the pandemic (pre-vaccine) had significant hospital stays and longer-term recoveries -- despite being younger (40-50).

    The folks I'm seeing catch it now are seeing longer "feel like shit" but without significant symptoms to warrant hospitalization -- despite being older (60-80).

    Bottom line, neither experience seems like one you would relish!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology. on Tue Jul 19 20:00:20 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:46:49 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:15:21 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:03:47 -0700, John Larkin >><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 15:37:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 08:42:01 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >>>>wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700, Don Y >>>>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm seeing different experiences and outcomes in current
    cases vs. cases from earlier in the pandemic.

    Granted, earlier, there were no vaccines whereas every
    case I've heard of recently has been vaccinated and
    usually, at least, boosted once (some twice).

    The cases early in the pandemic seemed to be more
    intense symptoms, hospital stays and long recoveries
    (some involving a fair bit of PT). Recent cases seem
    to be milder (no hospitalizations that I've heard of)
    but of much longer duration; you feel like shit for
    a long time (but I don't hear of any 'extreme' recoveries)

    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    I had it in 2020. It was like a cold, not bad, no treatment, but it >>>>>left me fatigued for a year. Dry-eye syndrome too, during that year; >>>>>that's one rare side effect, but no big deal.

    For roughly half of the people who got it, it was asymptomatic.

    I was blackmailed into getting vaccinated in 2021. I went for the J+J >>>>>because it was one shot. No reaction to that besides a slightly sore >>>>>arm.

    I had the J+J shot in 2021 as well, but I wasn't blackmailed at all. >>>>Vaccines are the most powerful medical treatment ever invented, by >>>>orders of magnitude.

    Getting the actual infection is probably better, and I had it before a >>>vaccine was available. I've been fine since then, not even a cold.

    The blackmail was a reservation at The Gold Mirror, a superb Italian >>>restaurant, that required a vaccine card at the time. Dirty trick.


    In round numbers, the risk of modern vaccination is of order a part
    per million, comparable to commercial air travel.

    In the US, COVID has killed a million people. Sounds like a lot, but >>>>the population is 330 million, so the raw risk is of order 0.33%, or >>>>3,030 ppm. Which well exceeds 1 ppm.

    Likely over-counted. As in death by motorcycle included.


    So I take all booster shots offered. So far, Pfizer and Pfizer again. >>>>I also had Omicron at XMAS 2021 - just a scratchy throat. The best >>>>protection is the combination of natural and vaccination-induced >>>>immunity.

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    Joe Gwinn

    .<https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-know-about-covid-19-vaccines-linked-heart-problems-young-people>

    Click through to the underlying Lancet article, and look at the
    figures and tables. Table 2 is key. Even for the young folk, it's
    still parts per million.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dave Platt on Tue Jul 19 16:40:38 2022
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev8q3qicfosnegaffg2@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere
    from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart -
    and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    Not insignificantly, getting a vaccine doesn't pose any increased risk
    to those around you.

    OTOH, catching COVID puts those around you (even casually) at increased
    risk.

    [Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others, then you can
    ignore this additional downside to non-vaccination]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 17:50:39 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:51:49 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:07:38 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.

    So you are happy to post vague and misleading generalisations, and hide behind more of the same when you get called on it.

    And for what purpose, myopic idiot? Even CDC admits their infection rate statistics could be off by 300%.

    In what context?

    You're just not in the same league here. Go read something else you can't make any sense of.

    I'd reading your nonsense, which doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm complaining about it.

    I don't know what league you think you are playing in, but pretentious half-wit would be the label I'd slap on it.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Dave Platt on Tue Jul 19 17:42:45 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.
    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere
    from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart -
    and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection. A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52
    autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases. In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent.
    Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease. These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune
    response from vaccination is much, much less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 18:03:22 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:50:42 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:51:49 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:07:38 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>
    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.

    So you are happy to post vague and misleading generalisations, and hide behind more of the same when you get called on it.

    And for what purpose, myopic idiot? Even CDC admits their infection rate statistics could be off by 300%.
    In what context?
    You're just not in the same league here. Go read something else you can't make any sense of.
    I'd reading your nonsense, which doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm complaining about it.

    I don't know what league you think you are playing in, but pretentious half-wit would be the label I'd slap on it.

    Do you really think I care about your name calling? Get real. I don't post supporting links for fence posts, who can't comprehend the content anyway.



    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 18:39:27 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:03:25 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:50:42 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:51:49 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:07:38 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>
    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.

    So you are happy to post vague and misleading generalisations, and hide behind more of the same when you get called on it.

    And for what purpose, myopic idiot? Even CDC admits their infection rate statistics could be off by 300%.
    In what context?
    You're just not in the same league here. Go read something else you can't make any sense of.
    I'd reading your nonsense, which doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm complaining about it.

    I don't know what league you think you are playing in, but pretentious half-wit would be the label I'd slap on it.

    Do you really think I care about your name calling? Get real. I don't post supporting links for fence posts, who can't comprehend the content anyway.

    You don't seem to be able to comprehend the content you post, which makes you dumber than a fence post. Naturally, you won't care about my "name calling" any more than Flyguy, Jake Isks and A A do. You can't understand what it means.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 18:34:23 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over, >mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.
    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age, gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart - and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.

    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases.

    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.

    Why "probably"?

    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is much, much
    less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 19:46:14 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:34:26 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more >risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from >COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over, >mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.
    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age, gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart - and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can do to your body.

    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.
    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    Like I said- you're a complete idiot. Nobody said the vaccine produces the auto-antibodies. It is the immune response to the vaccine antigen that does that.


    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases.
    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    Why presumably? You are accidently right about one thing, the real infection involves a lot more chemistry than a vaccine, especially with enzymes and cytokines. But for some people just the presentation of the simplest antigen- like a receptor binding
    domain- is all it takes to set off a chain of events producing an autoimmune effect. If you run across an investigative report of research into how much and how little in each of those cases, let us know.


    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.
    Why "probably"?

    There is no one form of long COVID- there are several varieties.

    Altered mental state seems to be quite common , but you have shown neither a vaccine nor an infection is necessary condition for that.


    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is much, much
    less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.
    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?

    More precisely I should have said "...as can be present..."

    You're welcome to survey the literature and make a determination of diagnosed autoimmune response in vaccinated without infection versus infection without vaccination...


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Tue Jul 19 19:47:23 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:39:30 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:03:25 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:50:42 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:51:49 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:33:29 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:07:38 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:23:25 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 12:04:53 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 05:52:17 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in <tb3l2e$bk87$1...@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>
    I'm not interested in distracting and irrelevant minutia small and inappropriate in scope.

    So you are happy to post vague and misleading generalisations, and hide behind more of the same when you get called on it.

    And for what purpose, myopic idiot? Even CDC admits their infection rate statistics could be off by 300%.
    In what context?
    You're just not in the same league here. Go read something else you can't make any sense of.
    I'd reading your nonsense, which doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm complaining about it.

    I don't know what league you think you are playing in, but pretentious half-wit would be the label I'd slap on it.

    Do you really think I care about your name calling? Get real. I don't post supporting links for fence posts, who can't comprehend the content anyway.
    You don't seem to be able to comprehend the content you post, which makes you dumber than a fence post. Naturally, you won't care about my "name calling" any more than Flyguy, Jake Isks and A A do. You can't understand what it means.

    Problem with people like you is you think everyone else is just as empty headed as you are.


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jul 19 20:37:50 2022
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev8q3qicfosnegaffg2@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of
    myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere
    from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same
    issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart -
    and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    Not insignificantly, getting a vaccine doesn't pose any increased risk
    to those around you.

    OTOH, catching COVID puts those around you (even casually) at increased
    risk.

    [Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others, then you can
    ignore this additional downside to non-vaccination]


    The only people I know personally that were diagnosed with covid were
    also fully vaccinated and boosted. That also appears to be the case for
    those high profile enough to attract media attention.

    One assumes they are just as infectious as the unvaccinated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jul 19 19:49:23 2022
    On 7/19/2022 7:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev8q3qicfosnegaffg2@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males. >>>>
    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of
    myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere
    from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same
    issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart - >>> and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    Not insignificantly, getting a vaccine doesn't pose any increased risk
    to those around you.

    OTOH, catching COVID puts those around you (even casually) at increased
    risk.

    [Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others, then you can
    ignore this additional downside to non-vaccination]

    The only people I know personally that were diagnosed with covid were also fully vaccinated and boosted. That also appears to be the case for those high profile enough to attract media attention.

    Most of those that I know who were Dx'ed predate the availability
    of vaccines. The number of "vaccinated" cases that I'm aware of number
    in the handful (prevaccine were dozens!)

    One assumes they are just as infectious as the unvaccinated.

    But the vaccine didn't *increase* the risk to others around them.

    Their *behavior* may have changed -- considering themselves invulnerable
    once vaccinated -- but the vaccine didn't cause, e.g., pericarditis in
    the guy sitting next to them on the bus.

    The point of masking has always been twofold -- to protect yourself
    (OK, if you're vaccinated you may believe you don't need such
    protection) *AND* to protect those around you.

    "Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others..."

    Thankfully, most of my friends/associates care enough about others
    (me, particularly) to be very proactive in notifying others of their
    POSSIBLE exposure and/or diagnosis. Can't say that for the rest
    of the jamokes in the grocery stores, etc. (hence the value of
    my continued masking -- even for *them*!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jul 19 19:53:42 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males. >>>
    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of
    myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere
    from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same
    issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart -
    and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can
    do to your body.

    Not insignificantly, getting a vaccine doesn't pose any increased risk
    to those around you.

    OTOH, catching COVID puts those around you (even casually) at increased risk.

    [Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others, then you can
    ignore this additional downside to non-vaccination]

    The only people I know personally that were diagnosed with covid were
    also fully vaccinated and boosted. That also appears to be the case for
    those high profile enough to attract media attention.

    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease requiring hospitalization.


    One assumes they are just as infectious as the unvaccinated.

    Maybe and maybe not- if the vaccine gave them enough resistance to keep the viral load to low levels then they're less infectious- but still infectious nonetheless.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Tue Jul 19 22:55:23 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:46:17 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:34:26 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>

    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.

    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    Like I said- you're a complete idiot. Nobody said the vaccine produces the auto-antibodies. It is the immune response to the vaccine antigen that does that.

    The complete idiot here seems to be you. The is just one vaccine antigen - a version of the Covid-19 spike protein.
    The virus itself synthesises a number of other proteins when it takes over a human cell. Some are purely functional like the genome replication enzyme, but others seem mess up the human immune response, and they can all serve as antigens.

    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases.

    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    Why presumably? You are accidently right about one thing, the real infection involves a lot more chemistry than a vaccine, especially with enzymes and cytokines. But for some people just the presentation of the simplest antigen- like a receptor binding
    domain- is all it takes to set off a chain of events producing an autoimmune effect.

    This is a claim, rather than a statement of an established fact. Cite your reference

    If you run across an investigative report of research into how much and how little in each of those cases, let us know.

    You first.

    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.

    Why "probably"?

    There is no one form of long COVID- there are several varieties.

    That doesn't explain your "probably".

    Altered mental state seems to be quite common , but you have shown neither a vaccine nor an infection is necessary condition for that.

    Your own mental state - your head up own arse - is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with long Covid.

    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is much,
    much less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?

    More precisely I should have said "...as can be present..."

    Which would have made it even more vacuous than what you did post.

    You're welcome to survey the literature and make a determination of diagnosed autoimmune response in vaccinated without infection versus infection without vaccination...

    Why on earth would I bother? You wanted to pontificate about the minor risk of percardiac inflamation from vaccination against Covid-19 and you managed to get it wrong, as you have admitted

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jul 19 23:57:47 2022
    On 07/19/2022 08:49 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Most of those that I know who were Dx'ed predate the availability
    of vaccines. The number of "vaccinated" cases that I'm aware of number
    in the handful (prevaccine were dozens!)

    I don't have a wide circle of acquaintances but I'm not aware of anyone diagnosed pre-vaccine. Like most places the first wave in this state was
    in nursing homes.

    I spent 50 days in a rehab/nursing facility after breaking a hip at the
    end of January and judging from the crowd from the nursing wing it
    wouldn't take much to push them over. Oddly the staff wore masks, the
    residents didn't for the most part. I was in quarantine for a week or so
    when I arrived and theoretically should have left my room but nobody
    paid too much attention to that.

    It did hit the nursing home economically, most going down to half
    occupancy, and laying off staff. As the immediate crisis passed they had trouble restaffing, particularly the CNA's. That job sucks compared to collecting enhanced unemployment checks.

    This county mandated masks and had fairly good compliance. Masks in the adjoining counties were optional since this county is a little blue spot
    in a sea of red.

    Some people still wear masks. I'm puzzled by the pairs with one masked
    person and one unmasked. Strictly casual observation but young women
    seem to be disproportionately masked.

    At least I had a better time than my ex who lives in NYC. She is not
    vaccinated which meant she was more or less under house arrest. She
    mentioned canceling her membership at one of the museums since they
    wouldn't let her in without a card anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jul 19 22:31:13 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>

    The only people I know personally that were diagnosed with covid were
    also fully vaccinated and boosted. That also appears to be the case for those high profile enough to attract media attention.

    One assumes they are just as infectious as the unvaccinated.

    Wrongly. They initially shed the Covid-19 virus at much the same rate as as the infected unvaccinated - it seems to come from the mucus membranes which don't have high antibody levels - but they stop shedding the virus quite a bit earlier, so they don't
    stay infectious for anything like as long, and if they don't get to the coughing up their lungs stage their peak rate of virus shedding should also be lower.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Wed Jul 20 00:03:17 2022
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males. >>>>>
    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more
    risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from
    COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over,
    mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of >>>> myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others.
    If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported
    as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good
    deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall
    risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere >>>> from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age,
    gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same >>>> issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart - >>>> and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can >>>> do to your body.

    Not insignificantly, getting a vaccine doesn't pose any increased risk
    to those around you.

    OTOH, catching COVID puts those around you (even casually) at increased
    risk.

    [Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others, then you can
    ignore this additional downside to non-vaccination]

    The only people I know personally that were diagnosed with covid were
    also fully vaccinated and boosted. That also appears to be the case for
    those high profile enough to attract media attention.

    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease requiring hospitalization.

    'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't much
    of a selling point. Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion
    Correctional and found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised. The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7
    deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a recipe for
    disaster.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 00:44:58 2022
    onsdag den 20. juli 2022 kl. 01.46.56 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
    On 7/18/2022 4:50 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    How does this jibe with other first-hand accounts?
    Any recent cases? Anyone want to claim it's "just like
    the flu"?

    Had about month ago (I assume, friends I was with the week before tested positive with a home test)
    Stayed in bed feeling like crap for most of a week, with no taste. Took few weeks to feel sorta normal again
    Age (within a decade)?

    47

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to amdx@knology.net on Wed Jul 20 08:18:02 2022
    On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Jul 2022 13:27:02 -0500) it happened amdx <amdx@knology.net> wrote in <tb6t1o$15qg0$1@dont-email.me>:

     Could you teach your people to draw legible schematics?

    We don't need no schema-tics

    But what specifically did you want to know?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jul 20 01:33:40 2022
    On 7/19/2022 10:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:49 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Most of those that I know who were Dx'ed predate the availability
    of vaccines. The number of "vaccinated" cases that I'm aware of number
    in the handful (prevaccine were dozens!)

    I don't have a wide circle of acquaintances but I'm not aware of anyone diagnosed pre-vaccine. Like most places the first wave in this state was in nursing homes.

    I've a rather large list of "acquaintances" (folks whose names you know and some level of detail about their lives that allows you to maintain a sense
    of "continuity" between interactions) and "friends" (folks who can make demands on you for your time) in various places around the country (places I've
    lived, previously, or clients/staff with whom I've interacted and maintained contact with, over the years). Most aren't very "needy" in terms of "contact" (regular correspondence).

    Perhaps the biggest "cost" to me in the first year or so of COVID was *their* increased need for contact as their social interactions were significantly impacted by restrictions (whether imposed externally or from within). Had
    this resulted in just an increase in email contacts, I could have easily managed it (cuz I can address email at my leisure). But, instead, much
    of that contact came in the form of an increasing need for *voice* contact.

    I *really* discourage phone calls. So, fielding calls that weren't really
    of my choosing was a big time sink/productivity hit. But, friends can make that sort of "demand"...

    [Perhaps the biggest hit came from SWMBO being home 24/7 as all of her
    "outside activities" had been canceled. Suddenly, added pressure to
    eat "on a normal schedule" ("but I ate YESTERDAY!") and demands for
    other entertainment (I was bringing home 20 movie titles each week to
    keep her distracted) and desire to clean up around here ("Why do we
    suddenly *need* to cut down that tree??") <frown> ]

    I don't know anyone in a "nursing home" (needing continuous medical care).
    But, know many folks living in "assisted living facilities" (long term *hotels*??). They were adversely impacted by their *internal* social structures being disrupted; the restaurants in the facilities were
    closed (meals were served to you in your suite), activities canceled
    (no Wii bowling or Bingo...), excursions curtailed, etc. They ended up
    feeling like prisoners for many months, yet equally wary of the
    consequences of NOT living within those constraints! By contrast,
    folks who still maintained their own residences could get out and
    about in their neighborhoods, shop, etc.

    The folks I saw get sick early on were in high contact fields -- often
    medical or caregiving. You *knew* it was just a matter of time for
    each of them.

    Others got sick out of a fear of invincibility or not wanting to feel
    deprived of some "personal liberty"; a lady friend went out with her girlfriends... and all got sick. Her "I-NEVER-get-sick" partner
    was surprised when he found himself laid up. Etc.

    Now, I see folks thinking they are "safe" because they've been vaccinated
    *or* already had a case of COVID. So, feel like they can get back to
    life as normal -- until the two red stripes alert them to their new dilemma!

    I spent 50 days in a rehab/nursing facility after breaking a hip at the end of
    January and judging from the crowd from the nursing wing it wouldn't take much
    to push them over. Oddly the staff wore masks, the residents didn't for the most part. I was in quarantine for a week or so when I arrived and theoretically should have left my room but nobody paid too much attention to that.

    It did hit the nursing home economically, most going down to half occupancy, and laying off staff. As the immediate crisis passed they had trouble restaffing, particularly the CNA's. That job sucks compared to collecting enhanced unemployment checks.

    Businesses, here, saw a similar impact. Our red-state goobernor prevented businesses from being closed (by local decrees). But, couldn't force folks
    to USE those businesses!

    So, the restaurants sat empty -- but staffed! Ditto the nail salons, hair dressers, etc. I'm sure they were GLAD they could keep accumulating
    operating expenses when everyone else had other plans! <rolls eyes>

    This county mandated masks and had fairly good compliance. Masks in the adjoining counties were optional since this county is a little blue spot in a sea of red.

    Similar, here. *Initially*. Now, folks seem to think the danger is past
    (its no longer covered in the news cycles). I suspect they are surprised when/if they find themselves suddenly sick ("How did *I* get this?")

    Some people still wear masks. I'm puzzled by the pairs with one masked person and one unmasked. Strictly casual observation but young women seem to be disproportionately masked.

    Ah, you noticed that, too? ("And you're gonna *kiss* him, little girl??")

    Maybe it's just their way of avoiding wearing makeup?? <grin>

    At least I had a better time than my ex who lives in NYC. She is not vaccinated
    which meant she was more or less under house arrest. She mentioned canceling her membership at one of the museums since they wouldn't let her in without a card anyway.

    I don't think anyone has ever asked to see *my* proof of vaccination.
    I only carry it when I'm on my way to get a booster, etc.

    Even medical providers just *inquire* as to your status -- mainly so
    they can justify removing their masks during appointments.

    [Though masks are still required by *all* medical establishments. Gee,
    do you think they know something that the grocery stores and restaurants *don't*?]

    I've heard of friends catching it (likely) from their masseuse/masseur, hairdresser, etc. (they come to this conclusion when they are later notified that the provider in question has come down with COVID and they are being
    asked to self-monitor)

    <shrug> Gotta feel for the folks who don't have control over their
    living/work environments! As well as those lacking self-discipline!

    [Opportunity for a great social study, there -- correlate mask wearing, vaccination (and other prophylactics) with exercise routines, healthy
    diets, etc.]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jul 20 07:39:10 2022
    On 07/20/2022 02:33 AM, Don Y wrote:
    So, the restaurants sat empty -- but staffed! Ditto the nail salons, hair dressers, etc. I'm sure they were GLAD they could keep accumulating operating expenses when everyone else had other plans! <rolls eyes>

    Most of the restaurants here survived. There was a bit of irony when you
    had to be masked for the 30' from the door to the table and then off
    with the masks. Some were strictly off premises. I was annoyed when my
    favorite bakery required you to call to place your order and I didn't
    have my phone. I guess they put your brownies in a bag and pushed it out
    the door with a long stick.

    NYC was different. My ex's favorite restaurant went under as did a lot
    of others. She survived on DoorDash or the equivalent. Strictly credit
    card, the courier left your chow in the lobby, called you, and
    disappeared. You masked up, went down, and got your meal. Great life. We
    always talked several times a year but the phone calls became more
    frequent as she went stir crazy.

    Maybe it's just their way of avoiding wearing makeup?? <grin>

    One article suggested they've come to the point where they feel naked
    without a mask sort of like the last century where a woman wouldn't go
    out without some sort of head covering.

    Even medical providers just *inquire* as to your status -- mainly so
    they can justify removing their masks during appointments.

    More irony. My dentist requires a mask and the receptionist takes you temperature. Then you fill out a questionnaire even if you were there
    the day before. Then you proceed to the torture chamber and remove the
    mask obviously.

    [Though masks are still required by *all* medical establishments. Gee,
    do you think they know something that the grocery stores and restaurants *don't*?]

    It varies. I had two post-op appointments with the surgeon who nailed my
    femur. He's in a rather busy orthopedic center and a mask was required
    when I went to the first. By the time of the follow up 30 days later the
    only masks in site were a few patients who chose to wear one. None of
    the staff was masked.

    My primary physician still required masking.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Wed Jul 20 07:24:13 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:55:26 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:46:17 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:34:26 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    <snip>
    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.

    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    Like I said- you're a complete idiot. Nobody said the vaccine produces the auto-antibodies. It is the immune response to the vaccine antigen that does that.
    The complete idiot here seems to be you. The is just one vaccine antigen - a version of the Covid-19 spike protein.
    The virus itself synthesises a number of other proteins when it takes over a human cell. Some are purely functional like the genome replication enzyme, but others seem mess up the human immune response, and they can all serve as antigens.
    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases.

    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    Why presumably? You are accidently right about one thing, the real infection involves a lot more chemistry than a vaccine, especially with enzymes and cytokines. But for some people just the presentation of the simplest antigen- like a receptor
    binding domain- is all it takes to set off a chain of events producing an autoimmune effect.
    This is a claim, rather than a statement of an established fact. Cite your reference
    If you run across an investigative report of research into how much and how little in each of those cases, let us know.
    You first.
    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.

    Why "probably"?

    There is no one form of long COVID- there are several varieties.
    That doesn't explain your "probably".
    Altered mental state seems to be quite common , but you have shown neither a vaccine nor an infection is necessary condition for that.
    Your own mental state - your head up own arse - is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with long Covid.
    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is much,
    much less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?

    More precisely I should have said "...as can be present..."
    Which would have made it even more vacuous than what you did post.
    You're welcome to survey the literature and make a determination of diagnosed autoimmune response in vaccinated without infection versus infection without vaccination...
    Why on earth would I bother? You wanted to pontificate about the minor risk of percardiac inflamation from vaccination against Covid-19 and you managed to get it wrong, as you have admitted

    I admitted no such thing. You're just a stupid little A-hole with dementia with a big helping of ignorance and low IQ mixed in.

    You pretend to be such a complex and detailed thinker yet fail to demonstrate one bit of that or any other form of usefulness in your posts.

    All you can manage to understand are simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs. This excludes you entirely from understanding anything at all related to health- also explains why you're so ignorant.


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jul 20 07:39:25 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>

    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease requiring hospitalization.

    'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't much of a selling point.

    You are much less likely to end up dead puts it more accurately, and you do need to throw in the fact that you are less likely to infect other people if you do get infected after you have been vaccinated.

    Treating vaccination as something that needs to be sold to reluctant customers may fit the private enterprise mind-set, but the public health issue is all about getting as many people as possible vaccinated, and giving them as little opportunity as
    possible to express any irrational reluctance they may feel.

    Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised. The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7 deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a
    recipe for disaster.

    Why? If the inmates had been elderly and sick there would have been a lot more deaths, but 7 out of 2000 is 0.35% which is not expected for the 20 to 30 year-old age bracket.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jul 20 07:35:51 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 2:03:26 AM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    The vaccines are not risk-free themselves, especially for young males.

    Hmm. Why do you say this? I don't think that the young are at more >>>>> risk from vaccination, but they do appear to be at less risk from >>>>> COVID. This is the kind of thing that the FDA and CDC agonize over, >>>>> mainly for a well-founded fear of Congress.

    The mRNA vaccines seem to be associated with an increased incidence of >>>> myocarditis and pericarditis, affecting young males more than others. >>>> If I'm reading the report in The Lancet properly, the excess rate
    is about 20 per million doses administered. Most cases are reported >>>> as being mild, with no lasting effects on quality of life.

    So, "the vaccines are not risk-free" is an accurate description.

    However, according to a CDC study earlier this year, the risk of
    cardiac issues after a COVID infection is higher - sometimes a good >>>> deal higher.

    "Among teenage boys, the rate of myocarditis or pericarditis after
    infection was at least 50 cases per 100,000 people, compared to at
    least 22 cases per 100,000 after the second vaccine dose. The overall >>>> risk of heart conditions after Covid infection was up to 5.6 times
    higher compared to the second vaccine dose. The risk was up to 69
    times higher after infection compared to the first shot."

    "Overall, the risk of a heart issue after Covid infection was anywhere >>>> from 2 to 115 times higher compared to vaccination depending on age, >>>> gender and the dose administered."

    (both from CNBC summary of the CDC report).

    So, "not taking the vaccine" is also not risk-free (for this very same >>>> issue). In fact it appears to be significantly riskier for your heart - >>>> and that's neglecting all of the other nasty things COVID infection can >>>> do to your body.

    Not insignificantly, getting a vaccine doesn't pose any increased risk >>> to those around you.

    OTOH, catching COVID puts those around you (even casually) at increased >>> risk.

    [Of course, if you don't give a rat's ass about others, then you can
    ignore this additional downside to non-vaccination]

    The only people I know personally that were diagnosed with covid were
    also fully vaccinated and boosted. That also appears to be the case for >> those high profile enough to attract media attention.

    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease requiring hospitalization.
    'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't much
    of a selling point. Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised. The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7 deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a recipe for disaster.

    They had a big problem with this massively expensive multi-vaccine development not meeting the initial FDA effectiveness requirements for approval. Once they changed the threshold for effectiveness to prevents disease serious enough to require
    hospitalization, all the vaccines effectiveness performance shot up to 95%- except the viral vector crap like J&J and AstraZeneca.

    If Fauci was infected, anybody can be infected. He was vaccinated with Moderna. The news may have mentioned that he received a monoclonal antibody treatment- don't recall. When you head up NIAID, you have access to quite a few treatment options.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jul 20 08:13:55 2022
    On 7/20/2022 6:39 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/20/2022 02:33 AM, Don Y wrote:
    So, the restaurants sat empty -- but staffed! Ditto the nail salons, hair >> dressers, etc. I'm sure they were GLAD they could keep accumulating
    operating expenses when everyone else had other plans! <rolls eyes>

    Most of the restaurants here survived.

    I have no idea how they fared, here. But, given that ~25% of most fail,
    it wouldn't likely be seen as a real "loss". We rarely visit restaurants
    but made several trips for BBQ take out. And, based on those results,
    decided we won't be doing that again!

    There was a bit of irony when you had to
    be masked for the 30' from the door to the table and then off with the masks.

    Here, they spaced out tables and reduced occupancy. As eating outdoors is practical most of the year (save Monsoon), it's not hard to arrange for
    "safer" dining.

    Some were strictly off premises. I was annoyed when my favorite bakery required
    you to call to place your order and I didn't have my phone. I guess they put your brownies in a bag and pushed it out the door with a long stick.

    Most stores offered roadside pickup. Even the hummingbird feeder that
    we purchased was brought out to our car, for us.

    NYC was different. My ex's favorite restaurant went under as did a lot of others. She survived on DoorDash or the equivalent. Strictly credit card, the courier left your chow in the lobby, called you, and disappeared. You masked up, went down, and got your meal. Great life. We always talked several times a
    year but the phone calls became more frequent as she went stir crazy.

    Yeah, I found this amusing. The same folks who would scarcely take their
    nose out of their phone DESPITE a "live human" standing next to them
    BEFORE the pandemic suddenly *craved* that contact!

    Maybe it's just their way of avoiding wearing makeup?? <grin>

    One article suggested they've come to the point where they feel naked without a
    mask sort of like the last century where a woman wouldn't go out without some sort of head covering.

    Dunno. I suspect more concern for disease. Now, masks are reasonably scarce. OTOH, I've noticed that it helps with my "seasonal" allergies (which seem
    to occur in all five seasons!). But, I can't discipline myself to wear
    one while walking the neighborhood or working in the yard (which is how I
    see the difference in "performance")

    Even medical providers just *inquire* as to your status -- mainly so
    they can justify removing their masks during appointments.

    More irony. My dentist requires a mask and the receptionist takes you temperature. Then you fill out a questionnaire even if you were there the day before. Then you proceed to the torture chamber and remove the mask obviously.

    My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by handwork. Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.

    You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone
    came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.

    [Though masks are still required by *all* medical establishments. Gee,
    do you think they know something that the grocery stores and restaurants
    *don't*?]

    It varies. I had two post-op appointments with the surgeon who nailed my femur.
    He's in a rather busy orthopedic center and a mask was required when I went to
    the first. By the time of the follow up 30 days later the only masks in site were a few patients who chose to wear one. None of the staff was masked.

    My primary physician still required masking.

    It is only recently that ONE "family member" can accompany a pt. And, they can't wait in the waiting room; wait elsewhere and they'll fetch you when
    your pt is called in.

    In a sense, many of the offices are now operating more efficiently.
    Pts don't queue up in the waiting room ahead of time ("Do NOT arrive
    more than 15 minutes before your apppointment"). I suspect they are
    now taking a more realistic approach to appt scheduling -- leaving some
    slop in the schedule so delays don't lead to a backlog of pts waiting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Wed Jul 20 08:02:28 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 12:24:17 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:55:26 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:46:17 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:34:26 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    <snip>
    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.

    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    Like I said- you're a complete idiot. Nobody said the vaccine produces the auto-antibodies. It is the immune response to the vaccine antigen that does that.

    The complete idiot here seems to be you. The is just one vaccine antigen - a version of the Covid-19 spike protein.
    The virus itself synthesises a number of other proteins when it takes over a human cell. Some are purely functional like the genome replication enzyme, but others seem mess up the human immune response, and they can all serve as antigens.

    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases.


    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    Why presumably? You are accidently right about one thing, the real infection involves a lot more chemistry than a vaccine, especially with enzymes and cytokines. But for some people just the presentation of the simplest antigen- like a receptor
    binding domain- is all it takes to set off a chain of events producing an autoimmune effect.

    This is a claim, rather than a statement of an established fact. Cite your reference
    If you run across an investigative report of research into how much and how little in each of those cases, let us know.
    You first.
    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.

    Why "probably"?

    There is no one form of long COVID- there are several varieties.

    That doesn't explain your "probably".

    Altered mental state seems to be quite common , but you have shown neither a vaccine nor an infection is necessary condition for that.

    Your own mental state - your head up own arse - is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with long Covid.

    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is much,
    much less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?



    Which would have made it even more vacuous than what you did post.

    You're welcome to survey the literature and make a determination of diagnosed autoimmune response in vaccinated without infection versus infection without vaccination...

    Why on earth would I bother? You wanted to pontificate about the minor risk of percardiac inflamation from vaccination against Covid-19 and you managed to get it wrong, as you have admitted.

    I admitted no such thing.

    " More precisely I should have said "...as can be present..." "

    You're just a stupid little A-hole with dementia with a big helping of ignorance and low IQ mixed in.

    Funny that you - of all people - should make that claim.

    You pretend to be such a complex and detailed thinker yet fail to demonstrate one bit of that or any other form of usefulness in your posts.

    You get stuff wrong. I point this out. You don't think that this is a useful exercise. John Larkin has the same problem.

    All you can manage to understand are simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs. This excludes you entirely from understanding anything at all related to health- also explains why you're so ignorant.

    " A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases. "

    Fred seems to think that invoking elaborate complications makes his fantasies more entertaining. He likes to think that less extravagant comments are "simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs" which doesn't happen to be entirely
    accurate, but it keeps him happy

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Wed Jul 20 08:16:06 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:39:29 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    <snip>
    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease requiring hospitalization.

    'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't much of a selling point.
    You are much less likely to end up dead puts it more accurately, and you do need to throw in the fact that you are less likely to infect other people if you do get infected after you have been vaccinated.

    Treating vaccination as something that needs to be sold to reluctant customers may fit the private enterprise mind-set, but the public health issue is all about getting as many people as possible vaccinated, and giving them as little opportunity as
    possible to express any irrational reluctance they may feel.

    The public health issue was relieving the strain on a failing hospital system. Many people who ordinarily would be admitted to the hospital for other conditions were turned away, surgeries were postponed indefinitely, diagnostic testing was all but
    discontinued, standard operating procedures for treatment and triage were rewritten and became quite extreme in hard hit areas. It is estimated that excess deaths due to cancer alone in U.S. for year 2021 were 38,000. The operative word is excess. Damage
    to the health care system was enormous and quite a bit of it was undocumented because people simply did not seek care.

    Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised. The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7 deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a
    recipe for disaster.
    Why? If the inmates had been elderly and sick there would have been a lot more deaths, but 7 out of 2000 is 0.35% which is not expected for the 20 to 30 year-old age bracket.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Wed Jul 20 08:22:57 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:02:31 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 12:24:17 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:55:26 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:46:17 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:34:26 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    <snip>
    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.

    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    Like I said- you're a complete idiot. Nobody said the vaccine produces the auto-antibodies. It is the immune response to the vaccine antigen that does that.

    The complete idiot here seems to be you. The is just one vaccine antigen - a version of the Covid-19 spike protein.
    The virus itself synthesises a number of other proteins when it takes over a human cell. Some are purely functional like the genome replication enzyme, but others seem mess up the human immune response, and they can all serve as antigens.

    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune
    diseases.

    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    Why presumably? You are accidently right about one thing, the real infection involves a lot more chemistry than a vaccine, especially with enzymes and cytokines. But for some people just the presentation of the simplest antigen- like a receptor
    binding domain- is all it takes to set off a chain of events producing an autoimmune effect.

    This is a claim, rather than a statement of an established fact. Cite your reference
    If you run across an investigative report of research into how much and how little in each of those cases, let us know.
    You first.
    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.

    Why "probably"?

    There is no one form of long COVID- there are several varieties.

    That doesn't explain your "probably".

    Altered mental state seems to be quite common , but you have shown neither a vaccine nor an infection is necessary condition for that.

    Your own mental state - your head up own arse - is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with long Covid.

    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is
    much, much less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?



    Which would have made it even more vacuous than what you did post.

    You're welcome to survey the literature and make a determination of diagnosed autoimmune response in vaccinated without infection versus infection without vaccination...

    Why on earth would I bother? You wanted to pontificate about the minor risk of percardiac inflamation from vaccination against Covid-19 and you managed to get it wrong, as you have admitted.

    I admitted no such thing.
    " More precisely I should have said "...as can be present..." "
    You're just a stupid little A-hole with dementia with a big helping of ignorance and low IQ mixed in.
    Funny that you - of all people - should make that claim.

    Another of your routine pat and tired comebacks...

    You pretend to be such a complex and detailed thinker yet fail to demonstrate one bit of that or any other form of usefulness in your posts.
    You get stuff wrong. I point this out. You don't think that this is a useful exercise. John Larkin has the same problem.

    You pointed out no such thing. You're a delusional narcissist.

    All you can manage to understand are simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs. This excludes you entirely from understanding anything at all related to health- also explains why you're so ignorant.
    " A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases. "
    Fred seems to think that invoking elaborate complications makes his fantasies more entertaining. He likes to think that less extravagant comments are "simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs" which doesn't happen to be entirely
    accurate, but it keeps him happy

    If it's a complication then it's not elaborate. I notice with your crippled mental processing no mention of the adjuvant at all because you know nothing at all about it. Adjuvants are a great way to bring out autoimmunity in an individual.


    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Wed Jul 20 16:28:04 2022
    On 20/07/2022 15:39, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>, Joe Gwinn
    <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>

    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent
    infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease
    requiring hospitalization.

    'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't
    much of a selling point.

    You are much less likely to end up dead puts it more accurately, and
    you do need to throw in the fact that you are less likely to infect
    other people if you do get infected after you have been vaccinated.

    That still isn't at all clear. UK has nearly 95% first dose with at
    least one jab and a recalcitrant 5% still hardline refuseniks.

    The current wave of BA.4 and BA.5 is sufficiently infectious in
    vaccinated people that 1:18 people have Covid right *now* which is
    almost as high as in the initial Omicron wave and it is still rising
    (and that is in the middle of summer when respiratory diseases normally disappear here with warm dry summer weather).

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-variants-identified-in-the-uk-latest-updates

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

    By comparison the first wave largely faded out during the first summer
    (except in a handful of unlucky places) and the second wave also. The
    behaviour of Omicron subvariants now is qualitatively different to
    previous waves and it continues to become ever more infectious.

    It must eventually hit some limit but BA.4 has 19% faster growth than
    BA.2 and BA.5 is 35% faster so looks like it will win out (unless and
    until BA.6 or some even more infectious new Greek letter comes along).

    Treating vaccination as something that needs to be sold to reluctant customers may fit the private enterprise mind-set, but the public
    health issue is all about getting as many people as possible
    vaccinated, and giving them as little opportunity as possible to
    express any irrational reluctance they may feel.

    UK has had a pretty successful vaccine roll out but the pandemic is not
    really under control so much as no longer killing quite so many people.
    This is in part because those most susceptible to harm are already dead!

    I know people who have had two different strains in relatively quick succession. It is endemic now and community transmission is rapid.

    The vaccine buys you a factor of at least 10 protection against dying of
    Covid if you get infected which has to be worthwhile.

    It isn't if you catch Covid any more but *when* you next catch it.

    Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and
    found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised.
    The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7
    deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a recipe
    for disaster.

    Why? If the inmates had been elderly and sick there would have been a
    lot more deaths, but 7 out of 2000 is 0.35% which is not expected for
    the 20 to 30 year-old age bracket.

    Age is the single most important factor followed by the most common co-morbidities like diabetes, hypertension and obesity. Being male also
    roughly doubles your chances of coming to harm from Covid.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449622/

    Around 90% of victims had at least one co-morbidity.

    The average number of co-morbidities of those who have died is 2.5.

    The statistic that the UK science communicators used that puts it into
    context is that having Covid is roughly equivalent to taking your annual
    age related risk of dying that year in a single hit.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 20 12:09:43 2022
     My experience so far: My son came home from work sic a week ago
    Wednesday, a 3 month expired test, showed a week positive.
     Next day a new test was full on positive. His sore throat was better,
    he said 1-1/2 of 10. He has coughed a few times, but very little.
    He went back to work after 4 days, Corp. policy is 5 days off and 5 days
    with a mask. The day he went back to work several people
    were off with Covid. My son lives with mom and dad, we are 63 and 67, we
    took no precautions other than not touching him or handling what he handled.
    We have separate computers desks, 6 ft from each other and spend hours
    sitting near each other. 8 days of son with known symptoms and mom and
    dad are still fine. Wife and Son got J&J, I got
    Moderna  (2)  and  booster (1). I have been taking a multivitamin,
    Vitamin D, Zinc/vitamin C, Quercetin, Lactoferrin, L-Citrulline and
    metformin, (I'm not diabetic, it has been found to help)
    I still have my fingers crossed.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Jul 20 10:23:15 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:28:15 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 20/07/2022 15:39, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>, Joe Gwinn
    <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>

    Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent
    infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease
    requiring hospitalization.

    'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't
    much of a selling point.

    You are much less likely to end up dead puts it more accurately, and
    you do need to throw in the fact that you are less likely to infect
    other people if you do get infected after you have been vaccinated.
    That still isn't at all clear. UK has nearly 95% first dose with at
    least one jab and a recalcitrant 5% still hardline refuseniks.

    The current wave of BA.4 and BA.5 is sufficiently infectious in
    vaccinated people that 1:18 people have Covid right *now* which is
    almost as high as in the initial Omicron wave and it is still rising
    (and that is in the middle of summer when respiratory diseases normally disappear here with warm dry summer weather).

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-variants-identified-in-the-uk-latest-updates

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

    By comparison the first wave largely faded out during the first summer (except in a handful of unlucky places) and the second wave also. The behaviour of Omicron subvariants now is qualitatively different to
    previous waves and it continues to become ever more infectious.

    It must eventually hit some limit but BA.4 has 19% faster growth than
    BA.2 and BA.5 is 35% faster so looks like it will win out (unless and
    until BA.6 or some even more infectious new Greek letter comes along).

    Treating vaccination as something that needs to be sold to reluctant customers may fit the private enterprise mind-set, but the public
    health issue is all about getting as many people as possible
    vaccinated, and giving them as little opportunity as possible to
    express any irrational reluctance they may feel.
    UK has had a pretty successful vaccine roll out but the pandemic is not really under control so much as no longer killing quite so many people.
    This is in part because those most susceptible to harm are already dead!

    I know people who have had two different strains in relatively quick succession. It is endemic now and community transmission is rapid.

    The vaccine buys you a factor of at least 10 protection against dying of Covid if you get infected which has to be worthwhile.

    It isn't if you catch Covid any more but *when* you next catch it.
    Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and
    found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised.
    The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7
    deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a recipe
    for disaster.

    Why? If the inmates had been elderly and sick there would have been a
    lot more deaths, but 7 out of 2000 is 0.35% which is not expected for
    the 20 to 30 year-old age bracket.
    Age is the single most important factor followed by the most common co-morbidities like diabetes, hypertension and obesity. Being male also roughly doubles your chances of coming to harm from Covid.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449622/

    Around 90% of victims had at least one co-morbidity.

    The average number of co-morbidities of those who have died is 2.5.

    The statistic that the UK science communicators used that puts it into context is that having Covid is roughly equivalent to taking your annual
    age related risk of dying that year in a single hit.

    That's a bunch of useless macro-statistics babble.

    Very recent news release of breakthrough research on what it takes to actually keep people alive:

    https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/article-712469

    "Results
    Estimated high-shear BV (eHSBV) and estimated low-shear BV were associated with increased in-hospital mortality. One-centipoise increases in eHSBV and estimated low-shear BV were associated with a 36.0% and 7.0% increase in death, respectively (P < 0.001)
    . Compared with participants in the lowest quartile of eHSBV, those in the highest quartile of eHSBV had higher mortality (adjusted HR: 1.53; 95% CI: 1.27-1.84). The association was consistent among multiple subgroups, notably among patients without any
    comorbidities (adjusted HR: 1.69; 95% CI: 1.28-2.22)."

    https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.04.060



    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Wed Jul 20 20:48:02 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:23:00 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:02:31 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 12:24:17 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 1:55:26 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:46:17 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 9:34:26 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 10:42:48 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>,
    Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    <snip>
    Since vaccination simulates an attenuated viral infection, you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection.

    It doesn't. The Covid-19 vaccines all seem to instruct the patient's body to make a lot of the Covid-19 spike protein, and nothing else.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-22905-7

    talks about the other proteins that the Covid-19 genome can - and does - construct. Some of them seem to be positively selected, so presumably they interfere with the host in a way that helps the virus.

    Like I said- you're a complete idiot. Nobody said the vaccine produces the auto-antibodies. It is the immune response to the vaccine antigen that does that.

    The complete idiot here seems to be you. The is just one vaccine antigen - a version of the Covid-19 spike protein.
    The virus itself synthesises a number of other proteins when it takes over a human cell. Some are purely functional like the genome replication enzyme, but others seem mess up the human immune response, and they can all serve as antigens.

    A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune
    diseases.

    But presumably not all of these will be present in the reaction to the vaccine, which presents the immune system with a single antigen, as opposed to a cocktail of proteins.

    Why presumably? You are accidently right about one thing, the real infection involves a lot more chemistry than a vaccine, especially with enzymes and cytokines. But for some people just the presentation of the simplest antigen- like a receptor
    binding domain- is all it takes to set off a chain of events producing an autoimmune effect.

    This is a claim, rather than a statement of an established fact. Cite your reference.

    If you run across an investigative report of research into how much and how little in each of those cases, let us know.

    You first.

    In many cases the autoimmune response does not persist and is temporary, but in some people it's permanent. Long COVID is probably autoimmune disease.

    Why "probably"?

    There is no one form of long COVID- there are several varieties.

    That doesn't explain your "probably".

    Altered mental state seems to be quite common , but you have shown neither a vaccine nor an infection is necessary condition for that.

    Your own mental state - your head up own arse - is unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with long Covid.

    These cases of heart problems are a result of autoimmune responses. A bunch of viral infections cause reactions that attack heart tissue- it seems to be a very vulnerable organ. As the data shows, the autoimmune response from vaccination is
    much, much less than that of a real viral infection. It's better for these people to take their chances with a vaccine.

    Absolutely. so why did you start off with " you're going to have the same downsides more or less as are present with a real infection"?

    Which would have made it even more vacuous than what you did post.

    You're welcome to survey the literature and make a determination of diagnosed autoimmune response in vaccinated without infection versus infection without vaccination...

    Why on earth would I bother? You wanted to pontificate about the minor risk of percardiac inflamation from vaccination against Covid-19 and you managed to get it wrong, as you have admitted.

    I admitted no such thing.

    " More precisely I should have said "...as can be present..." "

    You're just a stupid little A-hole with dementia with a big helping of ignorance and low IQ mixed in.

    Funny that you - of all people - should make that claim.

    Another of your routine pat and tired comebacks...

    You do keep on making exactly the same mistake.

    You pretend to be such a complex and detailed thinker yet fail to demonstrate one bit of that or any other form of usefulness in your posts.

    You get stuff wrong. I point this out. You don't think that this is a useful exercise. John Larkin has the same problem.

    You pointed out no such thing. You're a delusional narcissist.

    That's what delusional narcissists like you And John Larkin do like to claim.

    All you can manage to understand are simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs. This excludes you entirely from understanding anything at all related to health- also explains why you're so ignorant.

    " A major downside for nearly all viral infections is autoimmune response. Researchers have isolated 52 autoimmune components present in the typical COVID-19 infection, and those components are present in 24 different types of autoimmune diseases. "
    Fred seems to think that invoking elaborate complications makes his fantasies more entertaining. He likes to think that less extravagant comments are "simple, single variable, one dimensional information blurbs" which doesn't happen to be entirely
    accurate, but it keeps him happy.

    If it's a complication then it's not elaborate.

    It's difficult to have a complication that isn't elaborate.

    I notice with your crippled mental processing no mention of the adjuvant at all because you know nothing at all about it. Adjuvants are a great way to bring out autoimmunity in an individual.

    Adjuvents are also a great way of bringing out the desired immunity in the individual. That's why vaccines do include them, and they have been popular for quite a while now. You own mental processing doesn't seem to be up to that kind of insight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunologic_adjuvant

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Wed Jul 20 21:00:10 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 3:23:18 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:28:15 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 20/07/2022 15:39, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>, Joe Gwinn
    <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:

    <snip>

    That's a bunch of useless macro-statistics babble.

    Fred can't follow what it was saying.

    Very recent news release of breakthrough research on what it takes to actually keep people alive:

    https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/article-712469

    "Results
    Estimated high-shear BV (eHSBV) and estimated low-shear BV were associated with increased in-hospital mortality. One-centipoise increases in eHSBV and estimated low-shear BV were associated with a 36.0% and 7.0% increase in death, respectively (P < 0.
    001). Compared with participants in the lowest quartile of eHSBV, those in the highest quartile of eHSBV had higher mortality (adjusted HR: 1.53; 95% CI: 1.27-1.84). The association was consistent among multiple subgroups, notably among patients without
    any comorbidities (adjusted HR: 1.69; 95% CI: 1.28-2.22)."

    https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.04.060

    Fred hasn't noticed that correlation doesn't indicate causation. This research shows a correlation between blood viscosity and survival, but doesn't propose any scheme to lower whole blood viscosity or demonstrate that doing this would improve patient
    survival.

    It's standard medical mindless observation. They publish and the patients keep on perishing.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jul 20 22:25:36 2022
    On 07/20/2022 09:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
    My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by
    handwork.
    Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.

    You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone
    came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.

    Mine tried to schedule so there was only one person in the waiting room,
    and don't come in until your appointment. The major problem was the lack
    of six month old magazines. I was happy to see that while Boys Life was
    more technically oriented the same old bad jokes persist but they were
    all removed.

    Polishing still goes on. I drink enough coffee that they always dip
    into the flour of pumice. It's easy to see the spread with that crap.

    She dropped the cavitrons long before covid. I never asked why since I
    don't miss them at all. I haven't had cause to have my hearing tested
    but I still have some high frequency response. Doesn't help that we used
    them for ultrasonically welding plastic shell. One doesn't forget that
    sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jul 20 22:43:13 2022
    On 7/20/2022 9:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/20/2022 09:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
    My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings
    couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by
    handwork.
    Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.

    You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone
    came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.

    Mine tried to schedule so there was only one person in the waiting room, and don't come in until your appointment. The major problem was the lack of six month old magazines. I was happy to see that while Boys Life was more technically oriented the same old bad jokes persist but they were all removed.

    Dentist is incredibly punctual. If you have a 10:00 appt, then you'll
    be seen *at* 10:00! So, the number of folks potentially waiting is
    limited to the number of hygenists + 1 (for the dentist). If you're
    smart, you'll arrange to arrive coincident with your appt.

    Doctors, OTOH, are notoriously late. So, number of practitioners at
    the site multiplied by some small factor (related to how many of them
    are "running late")

    4:20PM appt, today. Got out of there at 5:58P.

    Polishing still goes on. I drink enough coffee that they always dip into the flour of pumice. It's easy to see the spread with that crap.

    They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses
    cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
    *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
    brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
    (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")

    She dropped the cavitrons long before covid. I never asked why since I don't miss them at all. I haven't had cause to have my hearing tested but I still have some high frequency response. Doesn't help that we used them for ultrasonically welding plastic shell. One doesn't forget that sound.

    Yeah, the sound seems to originate *between* the ears. "You can hear that?" "Hell yeah! Can't *you*??!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jul 21 07:17:56 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:43:26 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/20/2022 9:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/20/2022 09:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
    My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings
    couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by
    handwork.
    Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.

    You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone >> came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.

    Mine tried to schedule so there was only one person in the waiting room, and
    don't come in until your appointment. The major problem was the lack of six month old magazines. I was happy to see that while Boys Life was more technically oriented the same old bad jokes persist but they were all removed.
    Dentist is incredibly punctual. If you have a 10:00 appt, then you'll
    be seen *at* 10:00! So, the number of folks potentially waiting is
    limited to the number of hygenists + 1 (for the dentist). If you're
    smart, you'll arrange to arrive coincident with your appt.

    Doctors, OTOH, are notoriously late. So, number of practitioners at
    the site multiplied by some small factor (related to how many of them
    are "running late")

    That's because doctors are not running an assembly line and it's impossible to predict how long is required for each patient. A late doctor is a good caregiver.


    4:20PM appt, today. Got out of there at 5:58P.
    Polishing still goes on. I drink enough coffee that they always dip into the
    flour of pumice. It's easy to see the spread with that crap.
    They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
    *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
    brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
    (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")
    She dropped the cavitrons long before covid. I never asked why since I don't
    miss them at all. I haven't had cause to have my hearing tested but I still have some high frequency response. Doesn't help that we used them for ultrasonically welding plastic shell. One doesn't forget that sound.
    Yeah, the sound seems to originate *between* the ears. "You can hear that?" "Hell yeah! Can't *you*??!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Thu Jul 21 18:31:01 2022
    On 7/21/2022 7:17 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:43:26 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

    Doctors, OTOH, are notoriously late. So, number of practitioners at
    the site multiplied by some small factor (related to how many of them
    are "running late")

    That's because doctors are not running an assembly line and it's impossible to predict how long is required for each patient. A late doctor is a good caregiver.

    "good caregiver" is a non sequitur. A doctor who manages his time poorly
    is also late and need not be "good".

    How that tardiness is *managed* is significant. Chances are, he's seeing the same set of patients day after day, year after year. He should have
    LEARNED how much time patients require, on average -- and in specifics!

    [My PCP allocates a full hour to see me. Not because my needs are greater
    than those of other pts but, rather, because he knows we'll spend a fair
    bit of time "talking shop". "Take two and call me in the morning" won't
    cut it. And, he actually enjoys having a pt that is engaged in his own
    care and eager to understand how the Dx is made, the treatment plan
    devised, etc.]

    If my dentist has to address a dental emergency, I'll be notified
    of that and my appointment rescheduled -- even if only "can you come
    in an hour later?".

    I had an outpatient surgery scheduled, many years ago. I arranged to
    adjust my lunch break to coincide with the SHORT appointment. KNOWING that "shit happens", I called the doctor's office just prior to departing for
    my appointment.

    "Is the doctor running on-time? If not, I can come a bit later..."

    "Yes, we'll see you at 1:00!" (ten minutes from now)

    I sat in the waiting room until 2:00 -- then left.

    "But you can't leave! You're next!"

    "I called an hour and ten minutes ago offering to delay my
    arrival to coincide with his slipped schedule. Did he
    suddenly find himself an hour late in the ten minutes
    it took me to drive here? Look on the bright side, the
    time he WON'T spend taking care of me will allow him to
    get back on schedule for those who follow me!"

    [Lots of doctors! I can find another to deal with this
    by week's end...]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jul 21 23:03:01 2022
    On 07/20/2022 11:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
    They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
    *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
    brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
    (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")

    Yeah. I'm not known for big toothy grins so staining isn't a big issue
    for me. I definitely don't stick a dental mirror in my mouth to examine
    the lower lingual surface she obsesses about. Still I've reached mid-70s without sleeping with my teeth in a jar so I let her do her thing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jul 21 22:56:03 2022
    On 7/21/2022 10:03 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/20/2022 11:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
    They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses
    cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
    *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
    brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
    (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")

    Yeah. I'm not known for big toothy grins so staining isn't a big issue for me.

    I've been accused of smiling too much. <shrug>

    But, the facial sides of the teeth are always pearly white. You'd
    have to look *inside* my mouth to see the stain. Despite using
    a very abrasive "whitening" toothpaste and electric brush, it's
    near impossible to keep them clean (even on a 4 month schedule).

    I definitely don't stick a dental mirror in my mouth to examine the lower lingual surface she obsesses about. Still I've reached mid-70s without sleeping
    with my teeth in a jar so I let her do her thing.

    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more, daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and flavorful. But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    Hygenist has made it abundantly clear that the degree of my "comfort" (discomfort?) while seated in her chair will be directly related to
    how much of said tea I consume.

    So, I now limit myself to green tea.

    But, even that, in the quantities that I consume, stains horribly!
    She suggests drinking *water*! Christ, how boring is that??!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jul 22 03:21:59 2022
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more, daily... EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and flavorful. But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    I never had pu-erh but lapsang souchong is no slouch for staining.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jul 22 03:07:41 2022
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more, daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and flavorful. >> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
    in any form)

    I never had pu-erh but lapsang souchong is no slouch for staining.

    All the teas stain (tannin?). The blacker, the more aggressively.

    I found the taste of pu-erh to be much more pleasant than "regular"
    tea... it's got a sort of "earthy" taste. It is left to ferment for
    a period before being packaged for sale (you buy it in "cakes")

    But, the higher caffeine content makes it a poor health choice in the
    long term (but excellent for dealing with allergies as a short-term fix)

    I think the way most (?) folks drink tea also has an effect; you
    take the fluid into your mouth and then "shotgun" it into your gut.
    So, it has longer time to linger against/between the teeth surfaces.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to amdx on Fri Jul 22 14:57:27 2022
    On 7/20/2022 12:09 PM, amdx wrote:
     My experience so far: My son came home from work sic a week ago
    Wednesday, a 3 month expired test, showed a weak positive.
     Next day a new test was full on positive. His sore throat was better,
    he said 1-1/2 of 10. He has coughed a few times, but very little.
    He went back to work after 4 days, Corp. policy is 5 days off and 5
    days with a mask. The day he went back to work several people
    were off with Covid. My son lives with mom and dad, we are 63 and 67,
    we took no precautions other than not touching him or handling what he handled.
    We have separate computers desks, 6 ft from each other and spend hours sitting near each other. 8 days of son with known symptoms and mom and
    dad are still fine. Wife and Son got J&J, I got
    Moderna  (2)  and  booster (1). I have been taking a multivitamin,
    Vitamin D, Zinc/vitamin C, Quercetin, Lactoferrin, L-Citrulline and metformin, (I'm not diabetic, it has been found to help)
    I still have my fingers crossed.


    Thursday, 8 days after coming home sick, but after questioning he said
    he felt off on Tuesday, so 9 days after first symptom son has tested
    Negative for Covid.
    Dad, (me) tested on Friday and still Negative, not sure why I dodged it
    being in close vicinity of him most of the time. His mother is fine
    also. So far so good.

    Mikek

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jul 22 14:22:32 2022
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
    in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
    please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
    shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
    summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
    cabbage.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 22 14:31:28 2022
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:22:32 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
    in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, >please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
    shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
    summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and >cabbage.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

    I'm Irish. Free corned beef and cabbage at The Dovre Club on St
    Paddy's Day. The beer isn't free but that's reasonable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri Jul 22 16:15:20 2022
    On 07/22/2022 03:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:22:32 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage >>> in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
    please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
    shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
    summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
    cabbage.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

    I'm Irish. Free corned beef and cabbage at The Dovre Club on St
    Paddy's Day. The beer isn't free but that's reasonable.

    In 1847 the Irish were damned glad to get cabbage; the beef was exported
    to Britain. I usually make colcannon. That's closer to reality although
    even the potatoes may have been a problem.

    At least Butte MT had a celebration this year. They'd missed two years
    because of the black plague or whatever.

    An Ri Ra is back too.

    https://www.mtgaelic.org/lineup

    Good lineup this year, almost as good as 2016 when they pulled out all
    stops.

    Germans and Irish have gotten along well together.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtmZtpjb4Ss

    It came to nothing and Casement was hung but they tried.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jul 22 15:18:41 2022
    On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
    in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, please.
    Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of shchi with kasha
    on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and cabbage.

    I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

    It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

    But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

    Likewise, kugelis.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

    I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
    I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
    insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
    tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

    And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
    presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Fri Jul 22 17:04:35 2022
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 15:18:41 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage >>> in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, please.
    Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of shchi with kasha
    on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the summer. You talk od
    kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and cabbage.

    I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

    It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

    But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

    Likewise, kugelis.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

    I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
    I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
    insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
    tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

    I don't like classic heavy red sauces, but Mo makes a nice light
    orangish sauce with fresh cherry tomatoes that's pretty good, doctored
    a bit with cream and garlic and parmesan.


    And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
    presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

    Try these. Seriously.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wqsw4gb0714tugr/AADrQVtSGhejmKbmfiSWkeswa?dl=0

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jul 22 21:43:08 2022
    On 07/22/2022 04:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of
    cabbage
    in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
    please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
    shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
    summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
    cabbage.

    I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

    It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

    But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

    Likewise, kugelis.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow
    thieves.

    I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
    I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
    insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
    tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

    And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
    presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

    https://www.cdacellars.com/copy-of-strawberry-rhubarb-fool

    No rhubarb there, just noodle pudding. Judging from their links every
    time that added a recipe they copied the last one and edited it.

    No way am I firing up the oven at the moment though. I'm working my way
    through a cold rotisserie chicken from CostCo to avoid even turning on
    the stove.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jul 22 21:02:33 2022
    On 7/22/2022 8:43 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of
    cabbage
    in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
    please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
    shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
    summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
    cabbage.

    I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

    It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

    But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

    Likewise, kugelis.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow
    thieves.

    I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
    I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
    insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
    tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

    And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
    presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

    https://www.cdacellars.com/copy-of-strawberry-rhubarb-fool

    No rhubarb there, just noodle pudding. Judging from their links every time that
    added a recipe they copied the last one and edited it.

    Isn't that how EVERYONE does it? <grin>

    Then, they wonder why various bits of meta-information are all wrong! :<

    I only use butter with pastina; all other pasta has some form of red sauce (marinara, bolognese, puttanesca, etc.)

    I like the fusilli because it is "toothy" (and the shape carries lots of sauce). Ditto for the cavatelli -- though not as efficient at conveying
    sauce to mouth. (also a PITA to make the dough -- and I only get one
    meal out of it... 1 pound; it *might* survive frozen but definitely not dried... eggs)

    No way am I firing up the oven at the moment though. I'm working my way through
    a cold rotisserie chicken from CostCo to avoid even turning on the stove.

    Have to bake biscotti, tonight, so no such luxury, for me. Else, SWMBO
    will make the pouty face, come morning. <frown>

    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
    mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jul 22 23:39:27 2022
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
    mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked. Accuweather
    says it's 73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air. Damned if you do,
    damned if you don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was
    wearing jackets. I think they've cycled through every HVAC company in
    town trying to find one that can smooth out the system. It's an old
    factory with high ceilings and little or no insulation. I like the
    industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all the zones regulated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sat Jul 23 06:33:12 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 22 Jul 2022 15:18:41 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <tbf7ob$3d8i3$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage >>> in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, please.
    Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of shchi with kasha
    on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the summer. You talk od
    kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and cabbage.

    I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

    It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

    But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

    Likewise, kugelis.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

    I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
    I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
    insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
    tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

    And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
    presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

    Been eating spaghetti one day and various pizzas the other day for the last year,
    all with lots of ketchup and tomatoes. Lots and lots of virgin olive oil. grapes, kiwies, bananas, other fruit, chocolate, all sort of cookies.... bread..
    cheese... And mushrooms every day.
    Heading towards 76 earth years if WW3 does not interfere..
    Stopped eating meat 48 years ago.. Of course may change my mind if WW3 makes other food scarce
    any of you still eating human beings?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jul 23 00:23:46 2022
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
    mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.

    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)

    Accuweather says it's
    73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air.

    We've debated replacing the cooler with a whole-house exhaust fan
    (as the ductwork that it feeds would make the entire volume of household
    air accessible/exhaustible). But, of two opinions on that score (I
    really like the cooler in Summer as the moist air feels good against
    the skin; SWMBO *never* likes it.)

    Damned if you do, damned if you
    don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was wearing jackets. I

    Ha! I'm lucky if I put on *pants*!

    think they've cycled through every HVAC company in town trying to find one that
    can smooth out the system. It's an old factory with high ceilings and little or
    no insulation. I like the industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all
    the zones regulated.

    Fans to move air down (or up, depending on season) so you're controlling
    the air around the *bodies* is a good start.

    I've been exploring motorized dampers to break the house into zones.
    But, open floorplan means much of the house will end up being treated as
    *one* zone so the added controls are likely of little value.

    Would really like it if they made evaporators that could be located behind vents and rely on the central blower to move air past them. Would be
    more efficient than cooling the entire house. But, marketers haven't realized this to be a large potential market (everyone with central air who wants
    to move to mini splits without the ugliness of the wall-mounted units!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 03:11:03 2022
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 21:43:08 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/22/2022 04:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
    daily...
    EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
    flavorful.
    But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

    The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
    vinegar acts as a mordant.

    <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of
    cabbage
    in any form)

    Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
    please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
    shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
    summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
    cabbage.

    I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

    It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

    But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

    Likewise, kugelis.

    What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow
    thieves.

    I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
    I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
    insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
    tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

    And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
    presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

    https://www.cdacellars.com/copy-of-strawberry-rhubarb-fool

    No rhubarb there, just noodle pudding. Judging from their links every
    time that added a recipe they copied the last one and edited it.

    No way am I firing up the oven at the moment though. I'm working my way >through a cold rotisserie chicken from CostCo to avoid even turning on
    the stove.


    We get a rotisserie chicken from Safeway every few weeks, get a meal
    and a sandwich from that, and broth the cadaver. Rich home-made
    chicken broth blows away the weak salt water that you can buy in cans.

    We freeze it into ice cubes. Drop a few into whatever.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jul 23 07:44:00 2022
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:24:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
    mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.
    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)
    Accuweather says it's
    73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air.
    We've debated replacing the cooler with a whole-house exhaust fan
    (as the ductwork that it feeds would make the entire volume of household
    air accessible/exhaustible). But, of two opinions on that score (I
    really like the cooler in Summer as the moist air feels good against
    the skin; SWMBO *never* likes it.)
    Damned if you do, damned if you
    don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was wearing jackets. I
    Ha! I'm lucky if I put on *pants*!
    think they've cycled through every HVAC company in town trying to find one that
    can smooth out the system. It's an old factory with high ceilings and little or
    no insulation. I like the industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all
    the zones regulated.
    Fans to move air down (or up, depending on season) so you're controlling
    the air around the *bodies* is a good start.

    I've been exploring motorized dampers to break the house into zones.
    But, open floorplan means much of the house will end up being treated as *one* zone so the added controls are likely of little value.

    Would really like it if they made evaporators that could be located behind vents and rely on the central blower to move air past them. Would be
    more efficient than cooling the entire house. But, marketers haven't realized this to be a large potential market (everyone with central air who wants
    to move to mini splits without the ugliness of the wall-mounted units!)

    LG has the Art Cool line:
    https://www.ecomfort.com/cooling/lg-art-cool.html

    Then there's the custom carpentry ideas: https://www.protradecraft.com/photos/9-ways-hide-minisplit

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Sat Jul 23 08:17:46 2022
    On 7/23/2022 7:44 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:24:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to >>>> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.
    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)
    Accuweather says it's
    73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air.
    We've debated replacing the cooler with a whole-house exhaust fan
    (as the ductwork that it feeds would make the entire volume of household
    air accessible/exhaustible). But, of two opinions on that score (I
    really like the cooler in Summer as the moist air feels good against
    the skin; SWMBO *never* likes it.)
    Damned if you do, damned if you
    don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was wearing jackets. I >> Ha! I'm lucky if I put on *pants*!
    think they've cycled through every HVAC company in town trying to find one that
    can smooth out the system. It's an old factory with high ceilings and little or
    no insulation. I like the industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all
    the zones regulated.
    Fans to move air down (or up, depending on season) so you're controlling
    the air around the *bodies* is a good start.

    I've been exploring motorized dampers to break the house into zones.
    But, open floorplan means much of the house will end up being treated as
    *one* zone so the added controls are likely of little value.

    Would really like it if they made evaporators that could be located behind >> vents and rely on the central blower to move air past them. Would be
    more efficient than cooling the entire house. But, marketers haven't realized
    this to be a large potential market (everyone with central air who wants
    to move to mini splits without the ugliness of the wall-mounted units!)

    LG has the Art Cool line:
    https://www.ecomfort.com/cooling/lg-art-cool.html

    Those mount ON the wall. And, contain a fan, heating element, etc.

    What I'm looking for is mounting just the evaporator coil *in* the
    existing ductwork, behind the vent grill. Let the existing HVAC plant
    move the air through the evaporator coils. I.e., there are no VISIBLE differences in the appearance of the HVAC system to the occupants.

    [And, the ductwork would allow for the refrigerant lines to be routed invisibly. No need to drill holes through the walls *at* each
    evaporator's location, run power to each location, etc.]

    Most (all?) mini splits look terribly commercial/industrial... like
    the HVAC plant you'd encounter in a hotel room. There's already an
    existing place to "hide" the coil, why not exploit that?

    Then there's the custom carpentry ideas: https://www.protradecraft.com/photos/9-ways-hide-minisplit

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jul 23 12:32:18 2022
    On 07/23/2022 01:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
    mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.

    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)

    I've never been fond of AC. I grew up in an era when it was a selling
    point for theaters and motels and seldom found in residences. However
    most of my life has been lived within 150 miles of the Canadian border.

    I've got AC in the car since it wasn't even an option. Toyota has found
    it's cheaper to standardize. I've even got vestigial lane control and
    collision control stubbed out to the point where it beeps but doesn't do anything.

    I do use the car AC. The aerodynamic design didn't anticipate a window
    being opened for anything other than dragging in a Big Mac so there is
    very unpleasant buffeting at highway speeds.

    Now that all my work is done with a keyboard I don't even have to worry
    about sweat dripping onto the schematic on the drafting table.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Jul 23 12:40:49 2022
    On 07/23/2022 04:11 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We get a rotisserie chicken from Safeway every few weeks, get a meal
    and a sandwich from that, and broth the cadaver. Rich home-made
    chicken broth blows away the weak salt water that you can buy in cans.

    I've been using 'Better Than Bullion'. It's not better than homemade
    stock but it's a lot better than the stuff in cans or cartons.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 13:58:40 2022
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 12:40:49 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/23/2022 04:11 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We get a rotisserie chicken from Safeway every few weeks, get a meal
    and a sandwich from that, and broth the cadaver. Rich home-made
    chicken broth blows away the weak salt water that you can buy in cans.

    I've been using 'Better Than Bullion'. It's not better than homemade
    stock but it's a lot better than the stuff in cans or cartons.

    Mo makes an amazing chicken picatta. It's easy: flour some pounded
    chicken and brown it. Add 6 or 8 homemade broth cubes and simmer and
    reduce some. Then capers and lemon juice. Finally some hunks of
    butter, which somehow thickens it to a nice velvet effect.

    With Yukon Gold mashed potatoes and maybe something green. I do the
    pounding and frying and mashing and wash-up and most of the eating. I
    think being an engineer gave me good instincts for time and
    temperature and general violence.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 13:48:58 2022
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 12:32:18 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/23/2022 01:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to >>>> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.

    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)

    I've never been fond of AC. I grew up in an era when it was a selling
    point for theaters and motels and seldom found in residences. However
    most of my life has been lived within 150 miles of the Canadian border.

    In New Orleans, on a night in August, you learn to love that roaring
    cycling box in the window just next to your bed.


    I've got AC in the car since it wasn't even an option. Toyota has found
    it's cheaper to standardize. I've even got vestigial lane control and >collision control stubbed out to the point where it beeps but doesn't do >anything.

    I do use the car AC. The aerodynamic design didn't anticipate a window
    being opened for anything other than dragging in a Big Mac so there is
    very unpleasant buffeting at highway speeds.

    Now that all my work is done with a keyboard I don't even have to worry
    about sweat dripping onto the schematic on the drafting table.

    I still draw big schematics on paper, but the weather is cool here.
    Or, very rarely, hot and dry.

    Our shop is near a freeway so we keep the windows closed and have a/c
    with super hepa filters to avoid particulates when the wind blows the
    wrong way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 23 14:22:03 2022
    lørdag den 23. juli 2022 kl. 20.40.57 UTC+2 skrev rbowman:
    On 07/23/2022 04:11 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We get a rotisserie chicken from Safeway every few weeks, get a meal
    and a sandwich from that, and broth the cadaver. Rich home-made
    chicken broth blows away the weak salt water that you can buy in cans.
    I've been using 'Better Than Bullion'. It's not better than homemade
    stock but it's a lot better than the stuff in cans or cartons.

    “Of course, my stocks in class always tasted far better than my classmates’. No one could figure out how I coaxed such hearty flavor out of a few chicken bones, or made such wonderful fish fumet with fish racks and shrimp shells, all in the limited
    time available. Had my instructors given me a pat-down before class they might have learned my secret: two glassine envelopes of Minor’s chicken and lobster base inside my chef’s coat, for that little extra kick. They never figured it out.”

    – Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jul 23 15:39:50 2022
    On 7/23/2022 11:32 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/23/2022 01:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to >>>> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.

    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)

    I've never been fond of AC. I grew up in an era when it was a selling point for
    theaters and motels and seldom found in residences. However most of my life has
    been lived within 150 miles of the Canadian border.

    Growing up (New England), a window unit in the kitchen was our "luxury"
    (house wasn't designed for forced air HVAC). But, Summer was relatively
    short and rarely hit 90F. Pull the moisture out of the air and everyone
    feels better -- even if the air temp doesn't fall much.

    Here, it's 80F in February and 110+ by June. Both are tolerable in any
    season other than Monsoon; stay out of direct sunlight and/or humidify.
    It's almost *cold* at 80F -- at night (extremely low RH means any perspiration cools very effectively; I *froze* when I got out of 90+ degree swimming pool into 105F air temperature -- because all of that pool water evaporated in *seconds*!) I've seen folks wearing *sweaters* at night (WTF?)

    This time of year, the ACbrrr is needed for dehumidification AND cooling.

    On average, ~66 days above 100F. Some recent years, that's been *100*
    days above 100F.

    My "record high" was 117F. Record low was -26F (WC of -83F) in Chitown.
    By far, the heat is more tolerable (3 minute exposed flesh warning at
    that low temperature). I had 20T of aggregate delivered and managed to distribute it around the yard without any problem. *BUT*, wondered
    how I could drink a gallon of water hourly and never have to pee!! :<

    I've got AC in the car since it wasn't even an option. Toyota has found it's cheaper to standardize. I've even got vestigial lane control and collision control stubbed out to the point where it beeps but doesn't do anything.

    It's possible to buy a car w/o ACbrrr, here. I'm not sure they sell very many, though! (they also sell black on black vehicles... to idiots!)

    I do use the car AC. The aerodynamic design didn't anticipate a window being opened for anything other than dragging in a Big Mac so there is very unpleasant buffeting at highway speeds.

    My car has T-top which I enjoy removing -- but not during peak sun hours.
    Makes a royal mess of hair, though.

    Now that all my work is done with a keyboard I don't even have to worry about sweat dripping onto the schematic on the drafting table.

    ACbrrr failures neighbors have had house interiors quickly exceeding 90F if they don't have if they don't also have coolers. I've debated going for a
    MUCH larger gensset to be able to backup the ACbrrr (4T) in addition to other critical loads. But, that seems foolish. We'll probably buy a room sized portable unit "for emergencies" and just create a "cool room" in the house (probably the master). Other folks have spent the day in malls or rented hotel rooms when ACbrrr failed. (*THAT* is an inconvenience! Esp with pets)

    Dehumidifaction makes it relatively easy to stay indoors. Stepping outside
    is the problem; as soon as you return indoors, you are covered in perspiration.

    Leaving a glass of ice water on counter (or bowl of popcorn, uncovered)
    is the litmus test. If glass sweats (or popcorn goes soggy), then you
    want ACbrrr.

    Baking at this time of year is a challenge because of the humidity. I have
    to pay careful attention to weather if I want to get good results!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jul 23 21:58:25 2022
    On 07/23/2022 04:39 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/23/2022 11:32 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/23/2022 01:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to >>>>> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

    No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.

    Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
    (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)

    I've never been fond of AC. I grew up in an era when it was a selling
    point for theaters and motels and seldom found in residences. However
    most of my life has been lived within 150 miles of the Canadian border.

    Growing up (New England), a window unit in the kitchen was our "luxury" (house wasn't designed for forced air HVAC). But, Summer was relatively short and rarely hit 90F. Pull the moisture out of the air and everyone feels better -- even if the air temp doesn't fall much.

    Upstate NY would get into the 90's. We had a screened patio where I
    would retreat at night. The screens were a necessity if you didn't want
    to wake up desanguinated. One of the things I miss is lightning bugs.

    Here, it's 80F in February and 110+ by June. Both are tolerable in any season other than Monsoon; stay out of direct sunlight and/or humidify.
    It's almost *cold* at 80F -- at night (extremely low RH means any perspiration
    cools very effectively; I *froze* when I got out of 90+ degree swimming
    pool

    One of the adaptations I had to make when I first started hiking in the
    desert was just because you're not dripping sweat doesn't mean you're
    not dehydrating like a piece of jerky. I figured I was getting about 6
    miles to the gallon.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jul 23 22:44:49 2022
    On 7/23/2022 10:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    It's amazing how many things we take for granted, growing up
    (and thereafter, if naive!).
    I recall one of my early experiences, here. I was visiting
    and looked down to see an artichoke at chest level. "Hey,
    that's an artichoke!"

    I'd never considered how or where they grew -- as long as I
    could buy them at the grocery store! Ditto pomegranates.
    (everyone knows oranges grow on trees so no big deal, there)

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jul 23 22:41:09 2022
    On 7/23/2022 8:58 PM, rbowman wrote:

    I've never been fond of AC. I grew up in an era when it was a selling
    point for theaters and motels and seldom found in residences. However
    most of my life has been lived within 150 miles of the Canadian border.

    Growing up (New England), a window unit in the kitchen was our "luxury"
    (house wasn't designed for forced air HVAC). But, Summer was relatively
    short and rarely hit 90F. Pull the moisture out of the air and everyone
    feels better -- even if the air temp doesn't fall much.

    Upstate NY would get into the 90's. We had a screened patio where I would retreat at night. The screens were a necessity if you didn't want to wake up desanguinated.

    Mid 80's was more of a normal high, for us. Humidity, of course, but you didn't know any other way of living so accepted it.

    And, kids are always busy with other "distractions" so less time to fret
    about personal discomfort.

    One of the things I miss is lightning bugs.

    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    It's amazing how many things we take for granted, growing up
    (and thereafter, if naive!). I was on the beach in SoCal, one day,
    with friends -- including a friend from Colorado. She was staring
    out at the ocean in a daze leading me to sarcastically ask: "Haven't
    you ever seen the ocean?!" (we would skip out of school and spend
    the day at the beach, returning just before the bus at the end of
    classes -- so our absence wasn't apparent to "outside observers")

    Her reply, "It's so BIG!" It was startling as I had *assumed* that
    EVERYONE had seen the ocean! How could you MISS it?!

    Then, watched her kids, playing in the surf, with renewed interest.
    To them, it was "water". I was waiting for the inevitable mouthful and
    the realization that it was SALTY! Didn't have long to wait...

    Here, it's 80F in February and 110+ by June. Both are tolerable in any
    season other than Monsoon; stay out of direct sunlight and/or humidify.
    It's almost *cold* at 80F -- at night (extremely low RH means any
    perspiration
    cools very effectively; I *froze* when I got out of 90+ degree swimming
    pool

    One of the adaptations I had to make when I first started hiking in the desert
    was just because you're not dripping sweat doesn't mean you're not dehydrating
    like a piece of jerky. I figured I was getting about 6 miles to the gallon.

    Yes, exactly. You get wicked headaches when you forget that fact.
    I think the norm is a pint every 20 minutes -- that's almost half a
    gallon per hour!

    AND YOU WON'T PEE! Scary!

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 24 00:18:59 2022
    On 07/23/2022 11:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    I don't know where their range peters out. A few years ago I was camping
    at the Breaks Interstate Park on the KY/VA border. It had pretty much
    been raining from South Dakota on but it was a beautiful, still evening
    as I lay in my tent watching the fireflies. Of course the storm came in
    around 3 AM and I got drenched. Spent the next night in a motel in
    Bristol TN drying stuff out. All the rain did wonders for the
    rhododendrons.

    I knew it was bad when I met a box turtle walking down the trail at
    Frozen Head TN looking for a dry spot.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jul 24 03:37:29 2022
    On 7/23/2022 11:18 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 07/23/2022 11:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    I don't know where their range peters out. A few years ago I was camping at the
    Breaks Interstate Park on the KY/VA border. It had pretty much been raining from South Dakota on but it was a beautiful, still evening as I lay in my tent
    watching the fireflies. Of course the storm came in around 3 AM and I got drenched. Spent the next night in a motel in Bristol TN drying stuff out. All the rain did wonders for the rhododendrons.

    I knew it was bad when I met a box turtle walking down the trail at Frozen Head
    TN looking for a dry spot.

    I never really consider the effects of local climate on flora/fauna.
    I figured New England was "temperate" -- summers not too hot, winters
    not too cold. And, figured the things that couldn't live there were
    because of the cold winters. (E.g., Grandpa grew *figs* in his yard,
    but it required an extraordinary effort; here, most of my neighbors grow
    them effortlessly!)

    So, snakes/reptiles had limited appeal when they had to contend with
    the cold winters. Ditto citrus, etc.

    It was only after moving here that I realized there are tings that
    *need* the cold -- or, can not tolerate the heat. Ditto elevation,
    etc.

    [Always amusing to see "Old El Paso" touting a saguaro in their logo...
    yeah, that ain't gonna happen! :> ]

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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 10:42:12 2022
    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 00:18:59 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/23/2022 11:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    I don't know where their range peters out. A few years ago I was camping
    at the Breaks Interstate Park on the KY/VA border. It had pretty much
    been raining from South Dakota on but it was a beautiful, still evening
    as I lay in my tent watching the fireflies.

    I wonder what the time profile, the waveform, is of a firefly flash.

    That would be a fun science project.

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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sun Jul 24 10:36:13 2022
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 22:44:49 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 10:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    It's amazing how many things we take for granted, growing up
    (and thereafter, if naive!).
    I recall one of my early experiences, here. I was visiting
    and looked down to see an artichoke at chest level. "Hey,
    that's an artichoke!"

    I'd never considered how or where they grew -- as long as I
    could buy them at the grocery store! Ditto pomegranates.
    (everyone knows oranges grow on trees so no big deal, there)

    My first encounter with an artichoke was at a business lunch in a
    fancy restaurant, with a crab stuffed artichoke as a shared appetizer.

    I just grabbed a leaf and tried to eat it, and it didn't want to be
    et. The proper technique wasn't at all obvious.

    We have a great farmers' market nearby, with real farmers selling
    their stuff. In their natural state, on their stems, some veggies are
    very weird.

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 14:19:42 2022
    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 10:42:12 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 00:18:59 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/23/2022 11:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    I don't know where their range peters out. A few years ago I was camping
    at the Breaks Interstate Park on the KY/VA border. It had pretty much
    been raining from South Dakota on but it was a beautiful, still evening
    as I lay in my tent watching the fireflies.

    I wonder what the time profile, the waveform, is of a firefly flash.

    That would be a fun science project.

    .<https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/nature/firefly-flash-patterns.htm>

    Joe Gwinn

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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 13:28:36 2022
    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 14:19:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 10:42:12 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 00:18:59 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/23/2022 11:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    I don't know where their range peters out. A few years ago I was camping >>>at the Breaks Interstate Park on the KY/VA border. It had pretty much >>>been raining from South Dakota on but it was a beautiful, still evening >>>as I lay in my tent watching the fireflies.

    I wonder what the time profile, the waveform, is of a firefly flash.

    That would be a fun science project.

    .<https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/nature/firefly-flash-patterns.htm>

    Joe Gwinn

    That's cartoons of flash patterns, not waveforms.

    I've seen some waveforms that look like rounded pulses, but the
    detector bandwidth wasn't clear.

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 17:12:00 2022
    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 13:28:36 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 14:19:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 10:42:12 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com >>wrote:

    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 00:18:59 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 07/23/2022 11:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I was surprised to realize these aren't widespread! I had a friend
    out visiting (midwest) from SoCal one summer. Startled, she asked,
    "What was THAT?" Clueless, I replied, "What was WHAT?" "THAT!"
    as she pointed to another firefly. "Haven't you ever seen a
    firefly?" (puzzled)

    I don't know where their range peters out. A few years ago I was camping >>>>at the Breaks Interstate Park on the KY/VA border. It had pretty much >>>>been raining from South Dakota on but it was a beautiful, still evening >>>>as I lay in my tent watching the fireflies.

    I wonder what the time profile, the waveform, is of a firefly flash.

    That would be a fun science project.

    .<https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/nature/firefly-flash-patterns.htm>

    Joe Gwinn

    That's cartoons of flash patterns, not waveforms.

    The pulses won't be super sharp, because they don't really matter.
    It's the rhythm that usually matters for getting an invitation from a
    female firefly.


    I've seen some waveforms that look like rounded pulses, but the
    detector bandwidth wasn't clear.

    Well, the biology folk will generally chose an adequate bandwidth,
    which they do over time by finding the best BW for SNR (even if they
    never heard of SNR). Bio amps usually have a max-BW knob of some
    kind, usually implemented with a variable capacitor of some kind. For
    picking nerve pulses, it was very often a rotating-element variable
    air capacitor, used to control capacitance cancellation level just
    short of oscillation.

    Joe Gwinn

    Joe Gwinn

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