• Microwave Oven Layout

    From Ricky@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 9 10:17:56 2022
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Dean Hoffman@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Jul 9 10:45:14 2022
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 12:18:00 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    A search for combination and/or built in microwave turned up a few. Over the range with bottom
    controls exist. That doesn't really answer your question though.


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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Dean Hoffman on Sat Jul 9 15:18:10 2022
    Dean Hoffman <deanh6929@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 12:18:00 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:> I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up
    more space on the counter than needed. > > Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter? > > It seems there must be some reason for
    this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the side panel and the oven cavity can be that
    much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little. > > -- > > Rick C. > > - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging > - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209 A search for
    combination and/or built in microwave turned up a few. Over the range with bottom controls exist. That doesn't really answer your question though.

    There is a UL requirement for height above a range, so. Side
    controls would work better there.

    Cheers
    --


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  • From legg@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sat Jul 9 16:49:40 2022
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.

    The control panel isn't the culprit, it's the magnetron and fan that
    force extra real estate.

    . . . and controls have to face the operator, unless they're
    remote ( aaaagh ! another remote control ! )

    The rotator, or uwave-spreader already occupies hight.

    Probably the biggest waste of space are the rear corners,
    but they're no use to the end-user anyways, except to route
    line cordage, or avoid wall socket protrusions.

    You'll see this expressed as a 'bulge' in the back wall
    of some units, to increase rotator platten diameter.

    RL

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  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to legg on Sat Jul 9 14:01:56 2022
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 4:48:51 PM UTC-4, legg wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    The control panel isn't the culprit, it's the magnetron and fan that
    force extra real estate.

    . . . and controls have to face the operator, unless they're
    remote ( aaaagh ! another remote control ! )

    The rotator, or uwave-spreader already occupies hight.

    Rotators are going back a ways, if you mean that fan blade looking thingamajig.


    Probably the biggest waste of space are the rear corners,
    but they're no use to the end-user anyways, except to route
    line cordage, or avoid wall socket protrusions.

    You'll see this expressed as a 'bulge' in the back wall
    of some units, to increase rotator platten diameter.

    RL

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  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Jul 9 13:38:21 2022
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:18:00 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.

    There's this little thing called a magnetron that has to be routed via waveguide into the oven cavity. So unless you're willing to turn all your food upside down, it goes where it is now, the controls are just a fraction of that footprint. Hey- thanks
    for the brain teaser of the day tho...

    You should have planned for more space.


    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 01:13:58 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to
    simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same?
    I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they
    can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the side panel and the oven
    cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.

    The standard layout is fine, and works fine for making $60 microwaves.

    What's you looking for is called a "microwave drawer" and they're all rediculous to use. Its like loading and pulling food from a slide out
    trash can. Everything about them sort of sucks.

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Sat Jul 9 19:08:07 2022
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 9:14:04 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to
    simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same?
    I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they
    can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    The standard layout is fine, and works fine for making $60 microwaves.

    What's you looking for is called a "microwave drawer" and they're all rediculous to use. Its like loading and pulling food from a slide out
    trash can. Everything about them sort of sucks.

    No, I'm asking about a $60 microwave that has the controls above the door, rather than beside it. The part I don't know about, never having taken a microwave apart, is if it's a big deal to try to reposition the rest of the oven layout. Someone has
    said it's a problem, but that guy sounds like a moron. Another talked about the magnetron, but didn't say it was a problem moving it.

    The place I'm in this week has a medium size microwave, wedged diagonally in the corner of a small counter and takes up a much larger portion of the counter than is needed. But there's just no other place to put it really. Turning it parallel to either
    wall makes it less convenient and still doesn't give back any worthwhile space. But if it were four inches less wide, that would make it worthwhile to sit against the wall rather than cross ways in the corner.

    All in all this is one of the more accommodating places I've been in Puerto Rico. Nothing in particular stands out, but it doesn't have many of the many oddities you find here. There are no steps in the floor anywhere in the house or the porches. This
    may be the first place I've stayed without that oddity. One apartment I was in had a 1 inch rise to the bathroom. With the tile (nearly everywhere is ceramic tile in PR) and the grout about the same color, I stubbed my toe on it a number of times in
    the dim light. Another place had a flush threshold from patio to inside at one door, but a one inch rise at another door. I guess levels are not popular in Puerto Rico. That same place, had an 8 inch step into the bathroom (not uncommon, maybe for
    pipes) but no wall. That's right, the bathroom only had three walls, so a full view from the bedroom with a queen and a bunk bed.

    Well, that's a drift from the microwave, so I guess I should stop dragging my own thread off topic.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From John@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 03:13:51 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    Cydrome Leader wrote:

    What's you looking for is called a "microwave drawer" and they're all
    rediculous to use. Its like loading and pulling food from a slide out
    trash can. Everything about them sort of sucks.

    No, I'm asking about a $60 microwave that has the controls above the
    door, rather than beside it. The part I don't know about, never having
    taken a microwave apart, is if it's a big deal to try to reposition the
    rest of the oven layout. Someone has said it's a problem, but that guy sounds like a moron. Another talked about the magnetron, but didn't say
    it was a problem moving it.

    Wow. You sound desperate, or, too much time on your hands.

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  • From Dave Platt@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sat Jul 9 20:36:42 2022
    In article <ef621e9c-bc32-4c17-a8f6-f2030e0f964fn@googlegroups.com>,
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    No, I'm asking about a $60 microwave that has the controls above the door, rather than beside it. The part I don't know
    about, never having taken a microwave apart, is if it's a big deal to try to reposition the rest of the oven layout. Someone
    has said it's a problem, but that guy sounds like a moron. Another talked about the magnetron, but didn't say it was a
    problem moving it.

    The magnetron is in fact a fairly sizable device as things
    go... several inches on a side if I remember correctly. The
    transformer is of a similar size. In a typical counter-mounted
    microwave, these two components (and a fan) take up most of the space
    behind the control panel. The magnetron needs fan cooling.

    In the microwaves I've looked at, the RF arrangement seems to follow
    one of two patterns. In some, there's an aperture on the right side
    of the cooking chamber, and the magnetron fires through this... ovens
    like this usually have a rotating platform. In others, there's a
    metal waveguide mounted above the cooking chamber which carries the
    microwaves from the magnetron to an aperture with a rotating "fan"
    which disperses the microwaves... ovens like this often don't have a
    rotating platform.

    In principle I suppose it would be possible to rotate this arrangement
    on either axis, putting the magnetron and transformer either above the
    cooking chamber (trades width for height) or behind (trades width for
    depth). The "behind" approach wouldn't be good for countertops, I
    suspect, as it would result in a shallow cooking chamber which might
    not be able to hold an entire frozen dinner (and in that case what's
    the point? ;-)

    I wonder if anyone has ever tried to market a two-piece built-in
    microwave? (cooking chamber with thin control strip, a separate
    enclosure with transformer and magnetron, and an RF-tight
    waveguide connecting them). Seems as if it might work in theory,
    but getting consumer-safety approval would probably be hellish.

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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Jul 9 20:45:20 2022
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 10:18:00 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    Or, just putting the controls on the door; something like a four-wire USB cord could easily be routed through
    a door hinge.

    I think most of the magetrons are kinda... cubes, though. That and a mode mixer (fan) andtable rotator are always going to be space hogs.

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  • From Bertrand Sindri@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 04:12:11 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them
    are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side
    of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on
    the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes
    putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a
    smaller footprint on the counter?

    Have you ever taken apart one of the microwaves you reference (i.e., in
    another article you reference a $60 cost microwave).

    The control panel on the side is simply the front cover for the space
    which holds the transformer and capacitive doubler that drives the
    magnetron. Most of the space behind the side front panel is consumed
    by the transformer and magetron (with some extra for the cooling fan
    and enough room for airflow).

    The transformer itself is usually about as wide as the control panel,
    and often equally as deep, and about 1/2 to 3/4 the height of the
    volume behind the controll panel. The magnetron generally takes up the remaining 1/2 to 1/4 height of the control panel.

    The controls could be moved to the top, or bottom, or onto the door,
    and you still have to put that transformer volume and magnetron volumne somewhere. If you put both on top (or below) the cooking space, then
    you get a very tall unit that likely will not fit underneath normal
    cabinet spacing for normal kitchen countertops. If you put it behind
    the cooking space, you get an extra deep unit that likely sticks out
    too far from the wall and/or is too long to fit on a typical depth
    countertop.

    See "Step 7" and "Step 8" here: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microwave+Teardown/56516
    for photos of what is in the volume behind the control panel. The
    transformer, magetron, and cooling fan have to go somewhere. Turns
    out, on the side, with the control panel being the front cover of the
    volume containing the working guts, is pretty close to the optimal
    layout, you get the most overall compact unit with that arrangement.

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  • From Malcolm Moore@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sun Jul 10 23:00:29 2022
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.


    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above
    the door, so it is possible.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc
    https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them
    from their range.


    --
    remove sharp objects to get a valid email address

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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 12:41:41 2022
    On 10/07/2022 03:08, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 9:14:04 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them
    are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the
    side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more
    space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes
    putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the
    oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down
    to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the
    same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so
    small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the side
    panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using
    more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in
    places that have very little.
    The standard layout is fine, and works fine for making $60
    microwaves.

    What's you looking for is called a "microwave drawer" and they're
    all rediculous to use. Its like loading and pulling food from a
    slide out trash can. Everything about them sort of sucks.

    No, I'm asking about a $60 microwave that has the controls above the
    door, rather than beside it. The part I don't know about, never
    having taken a microwave apart, is if it's a big deal to try to
    reposition the rest of the oven layout. Someone has said it's a
    problem, but that guy sounds like a moron. Another talked about the magnetron, but didn't say it was a problem moving it.

    You can have microwave (or rather combo) ovens where the controls are
    above the heating space (but they are not the $60 ones) more like $600+.

    https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/bct/cooking/microwaves/neff/combi

    They are not especially small though 600mm width. A quick scan of my
    local store found just one free standing which meets your requirements
    (apart from being 2x the price). Every other looked to be the same basic chassis design with different external cosmetic look and feel.

    https://www.currys.co.uk/products/hotpoint-curve-mwhc-1331-fw-solo-microwave-white-10235895.html

    Controls and magnetron are underneath the cooking zone.

    Cheap ones it is just so much easier to lump all the active components
    in a standardised block off to one side of the oven space.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

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  • From amdx@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 07:46:29 2022
    On 7/9/2022 9:08 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 9:14:04 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to
    simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same?
    I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they
    can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the side panel and the oven
    cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or
    alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    The standard layout is fine, and works fine for making $60 microwaves.

    What's you looking for is called a "microwave drawer" and they're all
    rediculous to use. Its like loading and pulling food from a slide out
    trash can. Everything about them sort of sucks.
    No, I'm asking about a $60 microwave that has the controls above the door, rather than beside it. The part I don't know about, never having taken a microwave apart, is if it's a big deal to try to reposition the rest of the oven layout. Someone has
    said it's a problem, but that guy sounds like a moron. Another talked about the magnetron, but didn't say it was a problem moving it.

    The place I'm in this week has a medium size microwave, wedged diagonally in the corner of a small counter and takes up a much larger portion of the counter than is needed. But there's just no other place to put it really. Turning it parallel to
    either wall makes it less convenient and still doesn't give back any worthwhile space. But if it were four inches less wide, that would make it worthwhile to sit against the wall rather than cross ways in the corner.

    All in all this is one of the more accommodating places I've been in Puerto Rico. Nothing in particular stands out, but it doesn't have many of the many oddities you find here. There are no steps in the floor anywhere in the house or the porches.
    This may be the first place I've stayed without that oddity. One apartment I was in had a 1 inch rise to the bathroom. With the tile (nearly everywhere is ceramic tile in PR) and the grout about the same color, I stubbed my toe on it a number of times
    in the dim light. Another place had a flush threshold from patio to inside at one door, but a one inch rise at another door. I guess levels are not popular in Puerto Rico. That same place, had an 8 inch step into the bathroom (not uncommon, maybe for
    pipes) but no wall. That's right, the bathroom only had three walls, so a full view from the bedroom with a queen and a bunk bed.

    Well, that's a drift from the microwave, so I guess I should stop dragging my own thread off topic.

    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the
    older heavy transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just
    seems reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add
    about 5" to the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably. It
    might be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Jul 10 13:31:45 2022
    On 10/07/2022 12:41, Martin Brown wrote:

    <snip>

    They are not especially small though 600mm width. A quick scan of my
    local store found just one free standing which meets your requirements
    (apart from being 2x the price). Every other looked to be the same basic chassis design with different external cosmetic look and feel.

    https://www.currys.co.uk/products/hotpoint-curve-mwhc-1331-fw-solo-microwave-white-10235895.html


    Controls and magnetron are underneath the cooking zone.

    Shame about the controls. A nice big dial and some Bakelite knobs would
    work well there.

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to amdx on Sun Jul 10 05:59:03 2022
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the older heavy
    transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just seems reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add about 5" to
    the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably. It might
    be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.

    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a huge factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and *left* (rarer still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for something in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers. And, with convection capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm specializing in that, many decades ago]

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Bertrand Sindri on Sun Jul 10 08:50:46 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 12:12:20 AM UTC-4, Bertrand Sindri wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them
    are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side
    of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on
    the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes
    putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?
    Have you ever taken apart one of the microwaves you reference (i.e., in another article you reference a $60 cost microwave).

    The control panel on the side is simply the front cover for the space
    which holds the transformer and capacitive doubler that drives the
    magnetron. Most of the space behind the side front panel is consumed
    by the transformer and magetron (with some extra for the cooling fan
    and enough room for airflow).

    The transformer itself is usually about as wide as the control panel,
    and often equally as deep, and about 1/2 to 3/4 the height of the
    volume behind the controll panel. The magnetron generally takes up the remaining 1/2 to 1/4 height of the control panel.

    The controls could be moved to the top, or bottom, or onto the door,
    and you still have to put that transformer volume and magnetron volumne somewhere. If you put both on top (or below) the cooking space, then
    you get a very tall unit that likely will not fit underneath normal
    cabinet spacing for normal kitchen countertops. If you put it behind
    the cooking space, you get an extra deep unit that likely sticks out
    too far from the wall and/or is too long to fit on a typical depth countertop.

    See "Step 7" and "Step 8" here: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microwave+Teardown/56516
    for photos of what is in the volume behind the control panel. The transformer, magetron, and cooling fan have to go somewhere. Turns
    out, on the side, with the control panel being the front cover of the
    volume containing the working guts, is pretty close to the optimal
    layout, you get the most overall compact unit with that arrangement.

    That big line transformer is ancient history and no longer used. For the past ten years or so the industry has gone with resonant converter switching power supplies for magnetron HV and filament power. It saves a LOT of weight and wasted energy too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 10 09:12:37 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 8:59:17 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the older heavy
    transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just seems reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add about 5" to
    the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably. It might
    be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.
    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a huge factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and *left* (rarer still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for something
    in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers. And, with convection
    capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm specializing in
    that, many decades ago]

    Whirlpool makes this for the corner situation: https://www.whirlpool.com/kitchen/cooking/microwaves/countertop/p.0.5-cu.-ft.-countertop-microwave-with-add-30-seconds-option.wmc20005yw.html

    I don't see weight listed but I doubt it's 5 lbs. So even that hag in PR can carry it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Malcolm Moore on Sun Jul 10 09:22:17 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above
    the door, so it is possible.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them
    from their range.

    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 12:14:39 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above
    the door, so it is possible.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sun Jul 10 12:28:46 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:21:49 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:14:42 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove
    the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above the door, so it is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS
    here is a typical "Small countertop" model
    PRICE $69.88 - $98.59
    Galanz GLCMKA07BER-07
    10 in. high , 18 in. wide, 14 in. deep
    We have no reliability data on this brand
    but it performed quite well for evenness and
    (low) acoustical noise, but poor for speed (I
    take that to mean low RF output power).
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085JSK3JP
    actually ALL the small countertops are poor
    for speed (:: output power) so no differentiator
    unless we step up to mid-size....

    many Small are 10 x 17 x 13 (HWD), e.g.,

    Magic Chef HMM770B
    Midea MMC07S1AWW
    Open Kitchen by Williams Sonoma Stainless-Steel Microwave
    Black+Decker EM720CPN-P

    but this one is bit shorter, only 9" tall
    Oster OGCMV207S2-07

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sun Jul 10 12:21:46 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:14:42 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove
    the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above the door, so it is possible.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS

    here is a typical "Small countertop" model
    PRICE $69.88 - $98.59
    Galanz GLCMKA07BER-07
    10 in. high , 18 in. wide, 14 in. deep
    We have no reliability data on this brand
    but it performed quite well for evenness and
    (low) acoustical noise, but poor for speed (I
    take that to mean low RF output power).
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085JSK3JP

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sun Jul 10 12:20:01 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 3:14:42 PM UTC-4, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove
    the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above the door, so it is possible.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS

    I'm not looking for a microwave. I was just pondering the possibilities of layout variations. Which model is narrowest?

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sun Jul 10 13:39:41 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 3:28:49 PM UTC-4, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:21:49 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:14:42 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn.
    Remove the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above
    the door, so it is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them
    from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS
    here is a typical "Small countertop" model
    PRICE $69.88 - $98.59
    Galanz GLCMKA07BER-07
    10 in. high , 18 in. wide, 14 in. deep
    We have no reliability data on this brand
    but it performed quite well for evenness and
    (low) acoustical noise, but poor for speed (I
    take that to mean low RF output power). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085JSK3JP
    actually ALL the small countertops are poor
    for speed (:: output power) so no differentiator
    unless we step up to mid-size....

    many Small are 10 x 17 x 13 (HWD), e.g.,

    Magic Chef HMM770B
    Midea MMC07S1AWW
    Open Kitchen by Williams Sonoma Stainless-Steel Microwave
    Black+Decker EM720CPN-P

    but this one is bit shorter, only 9" tall
    Oster OGCMV207S2-07

    Someone else posted this one, Specifications
    Height: 14-1/8”
    Width: 15-3/8”
    Depth: 13-3/4”

    Seems intended for this purpose. https://www.whirlpool.com/kitchen/cooking/microwaves/countertop/p.0.5-cu.-ft.-countertop-microwave-with-add-30-seconds-option.wmc20005yw.html

    At almost $200 it seems I was right about vendors wanting a pretty penny for the convenience.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 10 20:56:29 2022
    On 7/10/2022 8:59 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the
    older heavy transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just
    seems reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add
    about 5" to the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put
    underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably.
    It might be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.

    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a huge factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and *left*
    (rarer
    still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for something
    in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers.  And, with convection
    capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm
    specializing in
    that, many decades ago]

    We do mostly stovetop cooking in my household so the +30 button tends to
    be the most-used button and the rest rarely to never.

    You could probably market a microwave oven with just that control to the younger crowd, nobody under 30 uses the temperature probes or
    auto-defrost or the "Popcorn" button (will only burn your popcorn) or
    all that crap.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sun Jul 10 18:20:27 2022
    On 7/10/2022 5:56 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 8:59 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the older >>> heavy transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just seems >>> reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add about 5"
    to the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put
    underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably. It >>> might be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.

    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a huge >> factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and *left* (rarer
    still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for something
    in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers. And, with convection
    capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm specializing in
    that, many decades ago]

    We do mostly stovetop cooking in my household so the +30 button tends to be the
    most-used button and the rest rarely to never.

    We use:
    - beverage (to reheat tea/coffee)
    - reheat (to heat/thaw frozen marinara/bolognese sauce)
    - digits (to set timer)
    - +30 (bump the time remaining, quick-heat tea, soften butter)
    - CLOCK (to force ToD into the display when it is otherwise "timing")
    - CLEAR (to discard remaining time on the timer)

    You could probably market a microwave oven with just that control to the younger crowd, nobody under 30 uses the temperature probes or auto-defrost or the "Popcorn" button (will only burn your popcorn) or all that crap.

    Popcorn is best made in hot oil (olive or sesame, despite low smoke point).
    The "specialty" buttons (and "modes") primarily just adjust the power level and/or duty cycle. But, only save labor if something will be *in* the
    oven for a long time. It's rare the oven is "on" for more than a minute
    at a time (though often used to TIME longer intervals).

    [I think it takes 2.5 minutes to "heat to serving temperature from frozen"
    a piece of meatloaf. A bit longer to defrost a pint of red sauce to serving temperature...]

    One surprise (that shouldn't have been!) I discovered was that increasing
    a timer from 60 to 70 to 90 seconds behaves as expected. But, 90 to 100
    can catch you off guard!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 10 19:51:40 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 9:20:46 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:56 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 8:59 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the older
    heavy transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just seems
    reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add about 5"
    to the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put
    underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably. It >>> might be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.

    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a huge
    factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and *left* (rarer
    still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for something
    in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers. And, with convection
    capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm specializing in
    that, many decades ago]

    We do mostly stovetop cooking in my household so the +30 button tends to be the
    most-used button and the rest rarely to never.
    We use:
    - beverage (to reheat tea/coffee)
    - reheat (to heat/thaw frozen marinara/bolognese sauce)
    - digits (to set timer)
    - +30 (bump the time remaining, quick-heat tea, soften butter)
    - CLOCK (to force ToD into the display when it is otherwise "timing")
    - CLEAR (to discard remaining time on the timer)
    You could probably market a microwave oven with just that control to the younger crowd, nobody under 30 uses the temperature probes or auto-defrost or
    the "Popcorn" button (will only burn your popcorn) or all that crap.
    Popcorn is best made in hot oil (olive or sesame, despite low smoke point). The "specialty" buttons (and "modes") primarily just adjust the power level and/or duty cycle. But, only save labor if something will be *in* the
    oven for a long time. It's rare the oven is "on" for more than a minute
    at a time (though often used to TIME longer intervals).

    [I think it takes 2.5 minutes to "heat to serving temperature from frozen"
    a piece of meatloaf. A bit longer to defrost a pint of red sauce to serving temperature...]

    One surprise (that shouldn't have been!) I discovered was that increasing
    a timer from 60 to 70 to 90 seconds behaves as expected. But, 90 to 100
    can catch you off guard!

    I'm pretty sure they don't adjust power level, the magnetron is an on/off proposition. They do adjust duty cycle and total time. And the microwave computes total time based up your input. Defrost asks you for the weight to be defrosted, self-adjusts the
    total time, and hits it with a 33% duty, just as an example, and it works pretty well for just about everything. POTATO works pretty well for baking a medium size potato in about 8 minutes, but if it's a big one, you need to run it through twice. The
    user needs to be willing to play with and remember the performance. If they're dumb the oven is not going to be a convenience for them But I guess that's true of everything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jul 10 19:53:59 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:39:44 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 3:28:49 PM UTC-4, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:21:49 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:14:42 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn.
    Remove the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above
    the door, so it is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them
    from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS
    here is a typical "Small countertop" model
    PRICE $69.88 - $98.59
    Galanz GLCMKA07BER-07
    10 in. high , 18 in. wide, 14 in. deep
    We have no reliability data on this brand
    but it performed quite well for evenness and
    (low) acoustical noise, but poor for speed (I
    take that to mean low RF output power). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085JSK3JP
    actually ALL the small countertops are poor
    for speed (:: output power) so no differentiator
    unless we step up to mid-size....

    many Small are 10 x 17 x 13 (HWD), e.g.,

    Magic Chef HMM770B
    Midea MMC07S1AWW
    Open Kitchen by Williams Sonoma Stainless-Steel Microwave
    Black+Decker EM720CPN-P

    but this one is bit shorter, only 9" tall
    Oster OGCMV207S2-07
    Someone else posted this one, Specifications
    Height: 14-1/8”
    Width: 15-3/8”
    Depth: 13-3/4”

    Seems intended for this purpose. https://www.whirlpool.com/kitchen/cooking/microwaves/countertop/p.0.5-cu.-ft.-countertop-microwave-with-add-30-seconds-option.wmc20005yw.html

    At almost $200 it seems I was right about vendors wanting a pretty penny for the convenience.

    It's the economy of scale for the market. If the market is relatively small, the product is going to cost. As usual you're totally out to lunch.


    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sun Jul 10 19:56:45 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 3:21:49 PM UTC-4, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:14:42 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 7:00:37 AM UTC-4, Malcolm Moore wrote:
    On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:17:56 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove
    the side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    Thirty years ago Mitsubishi had several models with the controls above the door, so it is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDhgAwdGUc https://imgur.com/qQ22mNS&Wx8gnnV
    Possibly not enough purchasers wanted to buy them so they deleted them from their range.
    That's exactly what I was thinking. Not only would it be more narrow, if used in the corner still, it would sit back further, wasting less space behind it in the corner.

    Like most "new ideas", they probably wanted a premium price and small microwave are mostly budget units.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Rick, what size footprint are you looking for?
    I can look it up in our ratings database, there
    60+ current US models there.
    FWIW, the range in dimensions are:
    Height, 9 to 16"
    Width, 17 to 30"
    Depth, 13 to 26"
    regards, RS
    here is a typical "Small countertop" model
    PRICE $69.88 - $98.59
    Galanz GLCMKA07BER-07
    10 in. high , 18 in. wide, 14 in. deep
    We have no reliability data on this brand
    but it performed quite well for evenness and
    (low) acoustical noise, but poor for speed (I
    take that to mean low RF output power).
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085JSK3JP

    That's not typical at all! It's an old fashioned weakling oven.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Sun Jul 10 20:26:32 2022
    On 7/10/2022 7:51 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 9:20:46 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:56 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 8:59 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the
    older heavy transformer, that had to be set out side the cooking
    area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just seems
    reasonable to put the control panel in the expanded area made for
    the other parts. Putting it on top would add about 5" to the height, >>>>> also make it very top heavy, instead having uneven weight
    distribution. Maybe it could all be put underneath, I don't know
    enough to know if the magnetron energy could efficiently guided up
    to where it needs to be, probably. It might be niche need that a
    company could make a buck on, but they don't seem to have made that
    happen.

    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a
    huge factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and
    *left* (rarer still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for
    something in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers.
    And, with convection capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end >>>> of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm
    specializing in that, many decades ago]

    We do mostly stovetop cooking in my household so the +30 button tends to >>> be the most-used button and the rest rarely to never.
    We use: - beverage (to reheat tea/coffee) - reheat (to heat/thaw frozen
    marinara/bolognese sauce) - digits (to set timer) - +30 (bump the time
    remaining, quick-heat tea, soften butter) - CLOCK (to force ToD into the
    display when it is otherwise "timing") - CLEAR (to discard remaining time
    on the timer)
    You could probably market a microwave oven with just that control to
    the younger crowd, nobody under 30 uses the temperature probes or
    auto-defrost or the "Popcorn" button (will only burn your popcorn) or
    all that crap.
    Popcorn is best made in hot oil (olive or sesame, despite low smoke
    point). The "specialty" buttons (and "modes") primarily just adjust the
    power level and/or duty cycle. But, only save labor if something will be
    *in* the oven for a long time. It's rare the oven is "on" for more than a
    minute at a time (though often used to TIME longer intervals).

    [I think it takes 2.5 minutes to "heat to serving temperature from
    frozen" a piece of meatloaf. A bit longer to defrost a pint of red sauce
    to serving temperature...]

    One surprise (that shouldn't have been!) I discovered was that increasing
    a timer from 60 to 70 to 90 seconds behaves as expected. But, 90 to 100
    can catch you off guard!

    I'm pretty sure they don't adjust power level, the magnetron is an on/off proposition. They do adjust duty cycle and total time.

    Here, "duty cycle" exists in the macro and micro sense.

    The "power level" of the maggie is adjusted by controlling duty cycle in
    the "micro" sense.

    The "duty cycle" that the user sees is on a larger timescale -- i.e., power
    is applied (at some "power level") for some number of seconds, then removed
    for some other number of seconds, then repeated.

    The user can *hear* when power is being applied and when "resting".

    And the microwave
    computes total time based up your input. Defrost asks you for the weight to be defrosted, self-adjusts the total time, and hits it with a 33% duty, just as an example, and it works pretty well for just about everything. POTATO works pretty well for baking a medium size potato in about 8 minutes, but if it's a big one, you need to run it through twice. The user needs to be willing to play with and remember the performance. If they're dumb the oven is not going to be a convenience for them But I guess that's true of everything.

    Ours has different "modes" for different items.

    E.g., REHEAT allows you to specify:
    1 PASTA
    2 MEATS
    3 VEGS
    4 BEV
    5 SAUCE
    6 PLATE
    (these are indicated in the display in case you've forgotten
    what each numeric code implies) with an optional followup digit
    of '2' or '3' to determine the amount being reheated (servings).

    AUTO DEF expects a weight -- in tenths of pounds.

    Then, there is a TIME COOK control which allows
    a duration and optional power level, defaulting to
    '10'.

    TIME DEF also expects a duration but fixes the power
    level at '3'.

    In each "mode", the oven decides how to modulate the
    maggie to produce the expected "power level" as well
    as how to "gate" the application of power vs. "rest"
    time.

    Pressing "+30" while the oven is off acts as a shortcut
    for "TIME COOK 30 POWER LEVEL 10" with subsequent presses
    adding 30 seconds to the time remaining. So, to soften
    butter (~10 seconds), it is easier to "+30", wait until
    display has counted down to "20", press CLEAR. To thaw
    marinara sauce, "REHEAT 5 3 (servings as I freeze it in
    pint size containers)" and periodically check to see if
    it might need more time; if so, "+30" continues the cycle
    at the current power level and "duty cycle".

    Somewhere, there is a probe that lets the oven monitor
    the internal temperature of a roast. And, I think the
    POPCORN setting "listens" for the cessation of "pops"
    to determine when to stop heating the kernels.

    As bitrex said, pretty much all of these are useless
    options, for most folks.

    We use the stovetop for fried foods and parboiling/steaming
    veggies. The convection toaster oven for normal meals
    (chicken parmigiana, pizzas, etc.) as there are only two
    of us. And the big oven for baking.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 10 20:38:34 2022
    On 7/10/2022 8:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Ours has different "modes" for different items.

    E.g., REHEAT allows you to specify:
    1 PASTA
    2 MEATS
    3 VEGS
    4 BEV
    5 SAUCE
    6 PLATE
    (these are indicated in the display in case you've forgotten
    what each numeric code implies) with an optional followup digit
    of '2' or '3' to determine the amount being reheated (servings).

    There are also "SNACK" and "COOK" buttons with their own similar
    submenus (e.g., how many ounces of veggies or slices of bread, etc.)

    A typical case of some engineer designing a product as it COULD
    be designed instead of as it SHOULD be designed!

    [We bought one for my MinL, many years ago, with a big rotary KNOB!
    Ideal UI for her! "Turn to *here* to reheat a cup of coffee..."]

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  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 10 23:47:05 2022
    mandag den 11. juli 2022 kl. 05.26.51 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
    And, I think the
    POPCORN setting "listens" for the cessation of "pops"
    to determine when to stop heating the kernels.


    https://youtu.be/UiS27feX8o0?t=249

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  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Jul 12 08:05:02 2022
    On 2022-07-10, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 9:14:04 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to
    simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same?
    I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they
    can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the side panel and the oven
    cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or
    alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.
    The standard layout is fine, and works fine for making $60 microwaves.

    What's you looking for is called a "microwave drawer" and they're all
    rediculous to use. Its like loading and pulling food from a slide out
    trash can. Everything about them sort of sucks.

    No, I'm asking about a $60 microwave that has the controls above the door, rather than beside it. The part I don't know about, never having taken a microwave apart, is if it's a big deal to try to reposition the rest of the oven layout. Someone has
    said it's a problem, but that guy sounds like a moron. Another talked about the magnetron, but didn't say it was a problem moving it.

    The place I'm in this week has a medium size microwave, wedged diagonally in the corner of a small counter and takes up a much larger portion of the counter than is needed. But there's just no other place to put it really. Turning it parallel to
    either wall makes it less convenient and still doesn't give back any worthwhile space. But if it were four inches less wide, that would make it worthwhile to sit against the wall rather than cross ways in the corner.

    All in all this is one of the more accommodating places I've been in Puerto Rico. Nothing in particular stands out, but it doesn't have many of the many oddities you find here. There are no steps in the floor anywhere in the house or the porches.
    This may be the first place I've stayed without that oddity. One apartment I was in had a 1 inch rise to the bathroom. With the tile (nearly everywhere is ceramic tile in PR) and the grout about the same color, I stubbed my toe on it a number of times
    in the dim light. Another place had a flush threshold from patio to inside at one door, but a one inch rise at another door. I guess levels are not popular in Puerto Rico. That same place, had an 8 inch step into the bathroom (not uncommon, maybe for
    pipes) but no wall. That's right, the bathroom only had three walls, so a full view from the bedroom with a queen and a bunk bed.

    Well, that's a drift from the microwave, so I guess I should stop dragging my own thread off topic.

    the magnetron is about as big as half a beer can. there's room for it in a corner of the cooking box. the big part is the transformer, but you
    could do an SMSPSU and fit that behind the control strip. The magnetron
    needs forced airflow to keep it cool but there's ways to handle that.
    eg: put a fan in the opposite corner

    --
    Jasen.

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  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Tue Jul 12 08:18:20 2022
    On 2022-07-10, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 10:18:00 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    Or, just putting the controls on the door; something like a four-wire USB cord could easily be routed through
    a door hinge.

    I think most of the magetrons are kinda... cubes, though. That and a mode mixer (fan) andtable rotator are always going to be space hogs.

    the active parts are cylindrical, but there are square heatsinks
    magnetic paths, and radio proof boxes, these parts could all be
    cylindrical too.

    --
    Jasen.

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  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jul 12 08:12:48 2022
    On 2022-07-11, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 8:59 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 5:46 AM, amdx wrote:
    I haven't had a newer switching style microwave apart, but with the
    older heavy transformer, that had to be set out side
    the cooking area, along with the magnetron and control pcb, it just
    seems reasonable to put the control panel in the
    expanded area made for the other parts. Putting it on top would add
    about 5" to the height, also make it very top heavy,
    instead having uneven weight distribution. Maybe it could all be put
    underneath, I don't know enough to know if the magnetron
    energy could efficiently guided up to where it needs to be, probably.
    It might be niche need that a company could make a buck on,
    but they don't seem to have made that happen.

    You can find microwaves with the controls on right (most common, by a huge >> factor), top (common in industrial settings), bottom (rare) and *left*
    (rarer
    still!)

    There's little demand for "tiny" ovens as most folks are looking for
    something
    in which they can, at least, reheat a plate of leftovers.  And, with
    convection
    capabilities, "turkeys" are probably the high end of that size range.

    [Having turned down an offer to design said controls for a firm
    specializing in
    that, many decades ago]

    We do mostly stovetop cooking in my household so the +30 button tends to
    be the most-used button and the rest rarely to never.

    You could probably market a microwave oven with just that control to the younger crowd, nobody under 30 uses the temperature probes or
    auto-defrost or the "Popcorn" button (will only burn your popcorn) or
    all that crap.

    The one we have here has instant start buttons for 1 to 6 minutes and a +30
    or you can set the timer, and powere level etc. - if you can remember how!



    --
    Jasen.

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  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jul 12 19:28:42 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 7/10/2022 8:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Ours has different "modes" for different items.

    E.g., REHEAT allows you to specify:
    1 PASTA
    2 MEATS
    3 VEGS
    4 BEV
    5 SAUCE
    6 PLATE
    (these are indicated in the display in case you've forgotten
    what each numeric code implies) with an optional followup digit
    of '2' or '3' to determine the amount being reheated (servings).

    There are also "SNACK" and "COOK" buttons with their own similar
    submenus (e.g., how many ounces of veggies or slices of bread, etc.)

    A typical case of some engineer designing a product as it COULD
    be designed instead of as it SHOULD be designed!

    [We bought one for my MinL, many years ago, with a big rotary KNOB!
    Ideal UI for her! "Turn to *here* to reheat a cup of coffee..."]

    Those old Tappan and Litton units with the single knob and maybe
    cook/defrost were basically perfection, until the spinning carousel was standard issue. Some of the old unit had a "fan" blade to scatter the microwaves around the cavity to try to even out the cooking.

    All the other crap is feature bloat. Does anyone really look at the entree legend in the door or menus instead of just hitting the minute button a
    few times?

    I do like the weird kitchen TVCR looking Whirlpool that was posted here.

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  • From Brian Howie@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jul 13 13:07:48 2022
    On 09/07/2022 18:17, Ricky wrote:
    I've seen microwave ovens designed for small spaces. None of them are actually so good, because they put the control panel on the side of the oven door making the oven larger and taking up more space on the counter than needed.

    Is there something about the internal organization that precludes putting the controls above or below the oven door, giving the oven a smaller footprint on the counter?

    It seems there must be some reason for this. Does it come down to simple expediency on their part, keeping all oven layouts the same? I've seen no shortage of microwave ovens with openings so small, they can barely cook a bag of popcorn. Remove the
    side panel and the oven cavity can be that much larger without using more counter space, or alternately, use less counter space in places that have very little.


    I guess the oven cavity has to be a multiple of half wavelengths at
    2.4GHz , which quantises the dimensions which work.

    http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys283/lectures/three_d/hauck.pdf

    Brian

    --
    Brian

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