• Waveform documentation

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 26 11:11:28 2022
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,
    nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.
    Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions
    (along with those expected during specific diagnostics)

    I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,
    directly, instead of in a supplementary document.

    I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make room
    to accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how to
    maintain such a document if light of potential changes to
    diagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).

    Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sun Jun 26 12:08:52 2022
    On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 11:11:28 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,
    nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.
    Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions
    (along with those expected during specific diagnostics)

    I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,
    directly, instead of in a supplementary document.

    I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make room
    to accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how to
    maintain such a document if light of potential changes to
    diagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).

    Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    We keep a separate design notes folder, that has a lot more than could
    fit on a schamatic. Personally, I don't like to clutter a schematic
    with notes. Maybe a very few strategic ones.

    If I have a rail named +60V, but it is typically 57 or something, I
    might add a small note so test people don't get upset. Maybe note a
    clock frequency in discreet small text.

    We do have a block diagram and a table of contents on sheet 1, and
    assign a name to each sheet.

    Before we release a schematic, we do a cosmetic cleanup and delete any
    layout notes or such.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/sd73vlfs7bzen2o/23S901A.pdf?dl=0

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  • From Don@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 26 19:35:57 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,
    nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.
    Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions
    (along with those expected during specific diagnostics)

    I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,
    directly, instead of in a supplementary document.

    I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make room
    to accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how to
    maintain such a document if light of potential changes to
    diagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).

    Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    Here's how Sams did it back in the day:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/sams.pdf

    Each of the black rectangles is an oscilloscope trace. The dimensional
    captions on the right side of each rectangle are easier to read off the original document. The captions say things such as 1.2 V over HORIZ.

    Sams' obvious motivation to include traces was to enable servicemen to
    fix TVs as fast as possible.

    kicad enables users to insert images into a schematic. kicad, in other
    words, can create Sams styled schematics.

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don on Mon Jun 27 09:05:57 2022
    On 6/26/2022 12:35 PM, Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,
    nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.
    Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions
    (along with those expected during specific diagnostics)

    I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,
    directly, instead of in a supplementary document.

    I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make room
    to accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how to
    maintain such a document if light of potential changes to
    diagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).

    Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    Here's how Sams did it back in the day:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/sams.pdf

    Each of the black rectangles is an oscilloscope trace. The dimensional captions on the right side of each rectangle are easier to read off the original document. The captions say things such as 1.2 V over HORIZ.

    Sams' obvious motivation to include traces was to enable servicemen to
    fix TVs as fast as possible.

    kicad enables users to insert images into a schematic. kicad, in other
    words, can create Sams styled schematics.

    But, TV's have dedicated functionality; you can say "hook color bar generator to input and these are the waveforms you will see". There's nothing comparable to hardware-software codesign, involved (where the waveform is largely controlled by the software and, thus, can be revised without altering the
    board artwork/PL).

    And, TV's don't tend to have any "sequencing" involved in their operation
    (do you show the waveforms AS channels are being changed?). By contrast,
    the sorts of things I (and many others) design inherently involve time dependencies for their proper operation (e.g., my power supplies use
    a combination of hardware signalling and out-of-band control messages
    to determine current limits, overload, sleep, etc.)

    I don't see the appeal of tying the two types of information together
    in one document -- it just saves (and RESTRICTS) having another document(s)
    on hand during test. If you had several different test procedures that
    could be invoked, you'd have to clutter the schematic with screenshots of
    the waveforms of *each* (or, here's a thought: move them into another document! :> )

    [I've seen schematics in which snippets of every previous revision were included in the document (in some "unused" whitespace). What does this
    afford anyone -- save the need to pull the schematic revision applicable
    to the board revision in front of you?! This sort of thing seems more associated with one-man shops that grew up into businesses; wanting to economize on documentation costs while small and never "maturing"!]

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  • From Don@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 27 17:05:13 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,
    nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.
    Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions
    (along with those expected during specific diagnostics)

    I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,
    directly, instead of in a supplementary document.

    I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make room
    to accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how to
    maintain such a document if light of potential changes to
    diagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).

    Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    Here's how Sams did it back in the day:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/sams.pdf

    Each of the black rectangles is an oscilloscope trace. The dimensional
    captions on the right side of each rectangle are easier to read off the
    original document. The captions say things such as 1.2 V over HORIZ.

    Sams' obvious motivation to include traces was to enable servicemen to
    fix TVs as fast as possible.

    kicad enables users to insert images into a schematic. kicad, in other
    words, can create Sams styled schematics.

    But, TV's have dedicated functionality; you can say "hook color bar generator to input and these are the waveforms you will see". There's nothing comparable
    to hardware-software codesign, involved (where the waveform is largely controlled by the software and, thus, can be revised without altering the board artwork/PL).

    And, TV's don't tend to have any "sequencing" involved in their operation
    (do you show the waveforms AS channels are being changed?). By contrast,
    the sorts of things I (and many others) design inherently involve time dependencies for their proper operation (e.g., my power supplies use
    a combination of hardware signalling and out-of-band control messages
    to determine current limits, overload, sleep, etc.)

    I don't see the appeal of tying the two types of information together
    in one document -- it just saves (and RESTRICTS) having another document(s) on hand during test. If you had several different test procedures that
    could be invoked, you'd have to clutter the schematic with screenshots of
    the waveforms of *each* (or, here's a thought: move them into another document! :> )

    [I've seen schematics in which snippets of every previous revision were included in the document (in some "unused" whitespace). What does this afford anyone -- save the need to pull the schematic revision applicable
    to the board revision in front of you?! This sort of thing seems more associated with one-man shops that grew up into businesses; wanting to economize on documentation costs while small and never "maturing"!]

    You find pack rats everywhere - even at too big organizations. And, as
    always, people believe whatever they choose to believe and act
    accordingly.

    Anyhow, the old Sams schematic linked above fired up /my/ imagination.
    My mind now cogitates on a circuit challenge. How to seamlessly combine
    this code:

    iicWrite(iiccmd); /* RS=Instruction; RW=Write; */
    nSleep (40L); /* Wait 40 ns */
    iicWrite(0x24); /* E; DB5=Function Set; DB4=4-bit */
    nSleep (230L); /* Wait 230 ns */
    iicWrite(0x20); /* !E; DB5=Function Set; DB4=4-bit */
    nSleep (270L); /* Wait 270 ns */

    with this timing diagram:

    https://crcomp.net/iic44780/timing.png


    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Mon Jun 27 11:58:49 2022
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback
    to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential
    changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.

    Cheers

    Does anyone still do that?

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 27 14:27:07 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback
    to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential
    changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.

    Cheers
    --


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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don on Mon Jun 27 14:51:24 2022
    On 6/27/2022 10:05 AM, Don wrote:
    Don Y wrote:

    [I've seen schematics in which snippets of every previous revision were
    included in the document (in some "unused" whitespace). What does this
    afford anyone -- save the need to pull the schematic revision applicable
    to the board revision in front of you?! This sort of thing seems more
    associated with one-man shops that grew up into businesses; wanting to
    economize on documentation costs while small and never "maturing"!]

    You find pack rats everywhere - even at too big organizations. And, as always, people believe whatever they choose to believe and act
    accordingly.

    Larger organizations suffer from inertial.. But, also have more opportunities for "smarter eyes" to look at the way things are being done. Small firms
    often use "re$ource$" as an excuse to convince themselves that there is no
    need to change... NOW (maybe later -- yeah, sure!)

    Anyhow, the old Sams schematic linked above fired up /my/ imagination.
    My mind now cogitates on a circuit challenge. How to seamlessly combine
    this code:

    iicWrite(iiccmd); /* RS=Instruction; RW=Write; */
    nSleep (40L); /* Wait 40 ns */
    iicWrite(0x24); /* E; DB5=Function Set; DB4=4-bit */
    nSleep (230L); /* Wait 230 ns */
    iicWrite(0x20); /* !E; DB5=Function Set; DB4=4-bit */
    nSleep (270L); /* Wait 270 ns */

    with this timing diagram:

    https://crcomp.net/iic44780/timing.png

    First, I'd express the code in more symbolic form. E.g., without
    investing much time to understand the unnamed component referenced,
    here (just guessing at the binding of value to symbols in diagram):

    // times in ns
    #define Tac (40) // setup
    #define PWeh (230) // width of E high
    #define Tah (270) // address hold

    #define E_CYCLE (0x20) // assert E
    #define BITS_4 (0x04) // 4 bit datum
    #define E_CYCLE_4_BIT (E_CYCLE | BITS_4)

    // send instruction opcode ("address")
    iicWrite(iiccmd);
    nSleep ((long) Tac);

    iicWrite(E_CYCLE_4_BIT); // assert E for 4 bit cycle
    nSleep ((long) PWeh);
    iicWrite(E_CYCLE_4_BIT & ~E_CYCLE); // release E

    nSleep ((long) Tah);

    I would pull this into a prose document that can exploit multimedia
    in its explanation of "why" things are done this way.

    N.B. You might be interested in "WaveDrom"

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Mon Jun 27 15:12:39 2022
    On 6/27/2022 11:27 AM, Martin Rid wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages,
    waveforms, timing relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under
    different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific
    diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the
    schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen
    on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these
    annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of
    potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given
    circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.

    In my case, these are "manufacturing documents"; information that
    the folks in final test (or depot repair) would consult to verify
    proper operation and/or isolate faults.

    But, that would inevitably have lots of "accompanying text" that
    would be essential to put the "drawings" in context: "Do *this*
    and expect to see *that* on some particular circuit node"

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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 27 20:49:18 2022
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships,
    etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as
    it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation
    have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
    Francis Bacon

    Medical equipment.

    Cheers
    --


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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Mon Jun 27 20:28:46 2022
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships,
    etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as
    it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation
    have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in
    certainties.Francis Bacon

    Medical equipment.

    Cheers

    Yikes. It scares me to imagine anyone doing field repairs to medical
    equipment.

    Our gear is always returned to the factory for repairs. We can replace
    any bad parts with the correct part, QC the work, then run the full
    automated test and cal and archive a test report.

    And we learn about failure rates and mechanisms.

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  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 28 16:19:23 2022
    T24gMjgvMDYvMjAyMiAxMzoyOCwgamxhcmtpbkBoaWdobGFuZHNuaXB0ZWNobm9sb2d5LmNv bSB3cm90ZToNCj4gT24gTW9uLCAyNyBKdW4gMjAyMiAyMDo0OToxOCAtMDQwMCAoRURUKSwg TWFydGluIFJpZA0KPiA8bWFydGluX3JpZGRsZUB2ZXJpc29uLm5ldD4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0K Pj4gSm9obiBMYXJraW4gPGpsYXJraW5AaGlnaGxhbmRfYXR3b3JrX3RlY2hub2xvZ3kuY29t PiBXcm90ZSBpbiBtZXNzYWdlOnINCj4+PiBPbiBNb24sIDI3IEp1biAyMDIyIDE0OjI3OjA3 IC0wNDAwIChFRFQpLCBNYXJ0aW4gUmlkPG1hcnRpbl9yaWRkbGVAdmVyaXNvbi5uZXQ+IHdy b3RlOj5Eb24gWSA8YmxvY2tlZG9mY291cnNlQGZvby5pbnZhbGlkPiBXcm90ZSBpbiBtZXNz YWdlOnI+PiBJIHVzdWFsbHkgYnVpbGQgYSBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGF0IGRlc2NyaWJlcyB0aGUg aGFyZHdhcmUsbm9taW5hbCB2b2x0YWdlcywgd2F2ZWZvcm1zLCB0aW1pbmcgcmVsYXRpb25z aGlwcywgZXRjLlBsdXMsIGNhcHR1cmVkIHdhdmVmb3JtcyB1bmRlciBkaWZmZXJlbnQgb3Bl cmF0aW5nIGNvbmRpdGlvbnMoYWxvbmcgd2l0aCB0aG9zZSBleHBlY3RlZCBkdXJpbmcgc3Bl Y2lmaWMgZGlhZ25vc3RpY3MpSSdtIGdldHRpbmcgc29tZSBwdXNoYmFjayB0byBtb3ZlIHRo ZXNlIG9udG8gdGhlIHNjaGVtYXRpY3MsZGlyZWN0bHksIGluc3RlYWQgb2YgaW4gYSBzdXBw bGVtZW50YXJ5IGRvY3VtZW50LkknbSBub3Qga2VlbiBvbiB0aGlzIGFzIGl0IG1lYW5zIHNj aGVtYXRpY3MgaGF2ZSB0byBtYWtlIHJvb210byBhY2NvbW1vZGF0ZSB0aGVzZSBhbm5vdGF0 aW9ucy4gIEFuZCwgSSBjYW4ndCBzZWUgaG93IHRvbWFpbnRhaW4gc3VjaCBhIGRvY3VtZW50 IGlmIGxpZ2h0IG9mIHBvdGVudGlhbCBjaGFuZ2VzIHRvZGlhZ25vc3RpY3MgKHdoaWNoIG1h eSBiZSBudW1lcm91cyBmb3IgYSBnaXZlbiBjaXJjdWl0KS5BbnkgZm9sa3MgcHJlcGFyaW5n IGNvbXBhcmFibGUgZG9jdW1lbnRhdGlvbiBoYXZlIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zPz4+SSB3b3VsZCBp bWFnaW5lIGEgc2VwYXJhdGUgc2VydmljZSBtYW51YWwgd291bGQgYXBwbHkuPj5DaGVlcnNE b2VzIGFueW9uZSBzdGlsbCBkbyB0aGF0Py0tIElmIGEgbWFuIHdpbGwgYmVnaW4gd2l0aCBj ZXJ0YWludGllcywgaGUgc2hhbGwgZW5kIHdpdGggZG91YnRzLCBidXQgaWYgaGUgd2lsbCBi ZSBjb250ZW50IHRvIGJlZ2luIHdpdGggZG91YnRzIGhlIHNoYWxsIGVuZCBpbg0KPj4gY2Vy dGFpbnRpZXMuRnJhbmNpcyBCYWNvbg0KPj4NCj4+IE1lZGljYWwgIGVxdWlwbWVudC4NCj4+ DQo+PiBDaGVlcnMNCj4gDQo+IFlpa2VzLiBJdCBzY2FyZXMgbWUgdG8gaW1hZ2luZSBhbnlv bmUgZG9pbmcgZmllbGQgcmVwYWlycyB0byBtZWRpY2FsDQo+IGVxdWlwbWVudC4NCg0KSXQg aXMgYWxzbyBhIGJpdCBzY2FyeSB0byBpbWFnaW5lIGJlaW5nIHRyZWF0ZWQgaW4gYSBob3Nw aXRhbCBkdXJpbmcgYW4gDQplbWVyZ2VuY3ksIGZ1bGwgb2YgZXF1aXBtZW50IHRoYXQgd2hl biBpdCBmYWlscywgY2Fubm90IGJlIHJlcGFpcmVkIGluIA0KdGhlIGZpZWxkLCBidXQgbXVz dCBpbnN0ZWFkIGJlIHNlbnQgdG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgb3ZlcnNlYXMgZmFjaWxpdHkgdGhhdCAN CmV2ZXJ5IG90aGVyIGhvc3BpdGFsIGluIHRoZSB3b3JsZCBpcyB0cnlpbmcgdG8gc2VuZCB0 aGVpciBkZWFkIHVuaXRzIHRvLCANCihlc3BlY2lhbGx5IGJlYXJpbmcgaW4gbWluZCB0aGF0 IHdoYXRldmVyIGVtZXJnZW5jeSBtYXkgd2VsbCBwdXQgYWxsIHRoZSANCmZyZWlnaHQgYWly Y3JhZnQgb3IgdGhlaXIgcGlsb3RzIG91dCBvZiBhY3Rpb24pLg0KDQpUaGVyZSBpcyBhbiBh cmd1bWVudCBmb3Igb25seSBwcm9jdXJpbmcgbWVkaWNhbCBlcXVpcG1lbnQgd2l0aCBwcm9w ZXIgDQpzZXJ2aWNlIG1hbnVhbHMsIHJlc2lzdG9ycyBiaWcgZW5vdWdoIHRvIGhhdmUgdmFs dWVzIG1hcmtlZCBvbiB0aGVtLCBhbmQgDQphIHN0b2NrIG9mIHNwYXJlcyBvZiBhbnkgcHJv Z3JhbW1hYmxlIGRldmljZXMsIG9yIHNwYXJlcyBvZiBhbnkgYm9hcmRzIA0Kd2l0aCBtYXNz aXZlIEJHQXMsIGFuZCBubyBwYXJ0cyBsb2NrZWQgdG8gZWFjaCBvdGhlciBieSBzZXJpYWwg bnVtYmVyLiANClRob3NlIGNvdW50cmllcyB3aXRoIG5hdGlvbmFsaXNlZCBoZWFsdGhjYXJl IGRvIGhhdmUgc3VmZmljaWVudCBidXlpbmcgDQpwb3dlciB0byBkaWN0YXRlIHRob3NlIHRl cm1zIGlmIHRoZXkgd2FudCB0bywgKG11Y2ggbGlrZSB0aGUgVVMgbWlsaXRhcnkgDQp0byB0 ZXN0IGVxdWlwbWVudCBtYW51ZmFjdHVyZXJzIGluIHRoZSBwYXN0KS4NCg0KDQo=

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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com on Tue Jun 28 07:16:13 2022
    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 16:19:23 +1000, Chris Jones
    <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 28/06/2022 13:28, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r >>>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships,
    etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as
    it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation
    have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in
    certainties.Francis Bacon

    Medical equipment.

    Cheers

    Yikes. It scares me to imagine anyone doing field repairs to medical
    equipment.

    It is also a bit scary to imagine being treated in a hospital during an >emergency, full of equipment that when it fails, cannot be repaired in
    the field, but must instead be sent to the same overseas facility that
    every other hospital in the world is trying to send their dead units to, >(especially bearing in mind that whatever emergency may well put all the >freight aircraft or their pilots out of action).

    There is an argument for only procuring medical equipment with proper
    service manuals, resistors big enough to have values marked on them, and
    a stock of spares of any programmable devices, or spares of any boards
    with massive BGAs, and no parts locked to each other by serial number.
    Those countries with nationalised healthcare do have sufficient buying
    power to dictate those terms if they want to, (much like the US military
    to test equipment manufacturers in the past).


    No surface-mount?

    Our FDA is absolutely fascist about quality. They pulled a pop
    inspection on one nearby outfit that made cancer-treatment gear. They discovered some new pcb's on the same bench as some repair units,
    which is against the rules. They shut down the facility for a year of re-training and re-qualification, and some of the engineers quit from
    boredom.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Jun 28 14:19:58 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don
    Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected
    during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how
    tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.>>CheersDoes anyone
    still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in>certainties.Francis Bacon>>Medical equipment. >>CheersYikes. It scares me to imagine anyone doing field
    repairs to medicalequipment.Our gear is always returned to the factory for repairs. We can replaceany bad parts with the correct part, QC the work, then run the fullautomated test and cal and archive a test report.And we learn about failure rates and
    mechanisms.

    Ok, how about automotive service manuals.
    Feel better?
    ;)
    Cheers
    --


    ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 28 13:01:19 2022
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 28 15:35:31 2022
    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 07:16:13 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 16:19:23 +1000, Chris Jones
    <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 28/06/2022 13:28, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r >>>>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships,
    etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as
    it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation
    have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in
    certainties.Francis Bacon

    Medical equipment.

    Cheers

    Yikes. It scares me to imagine anyone doing field repairs to medical
    equipment.

    It is also a bit scary to imagine being treated in a hospital during an >>emergency, full of equipment that when it fails, cannot be repaired in
    the field, but must instead be sent to the same overseas facility that >>every other hospital in the world is trying to send their dead units to, >>(especially bearing in mind that whatever emergency may well put all the >>freight aircraft or their pilots out of action).

    There is an argument for only procuring medical equipment with proper >>service manuals, resistors big enough to have values marked on them, and
    a stock of spares of any programmable devices, or spares of any boards
    with massive BGAs, and no parts locked to each other by serial number. >>Those countries with nationalised healthcare do have sufficient buying >>power to dictate those terms if they want to, (much like the US military
    to test equipment manufacturers in the past).


    No surface-mount?

    Our FDA is absolutely fascist about quality. They pulled a pop
    inspection on one nearby outfit that made cancer-treatment gear. They >discovered some new pcb's on the same bench as some repair units,
    which is against the rules. They shut down the facility for a year of >re-training and re-qualification, and some of the engineers quit from >boredom.

    Yes. Here's why:

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25>

    I read the what-happened reports from the day. What a bunch of hacks,
    even by the standards of that day.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Tue Jun 28 16:52:37 2022
    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 14:19:58 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don
    Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected
    during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how
    tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would
    apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in>certainties.Francis Bacon>>Medical equipment. >>CheersYikes. It scares me to
    imagine anyone doing field repairs to medicalequipment.Our gear is always returned to the factory for repairs. We can replaceany bad parts with the correct part, QC the work, then run the fullautomated test and cal and archive a test report.And we learn
    about failure rates and mechanisms.

    Ok, how about automotive service manuals.
    Feel better?
    ;)
    Cheers

    A lot of stuff on my car can't be fixed by owners.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 11:27:16 2022
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Three Jeeps@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Jun 28 21:21:54 2022
    On Tuesday, June 28, 2022 at 7:52:48 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 14:19:58 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin...@verison.net> wrote:>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin...@verison.net> wrote:>Don Y <
    blocked...@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during
    specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how
    tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would
    apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in>certainties.Francis Bacon>>Medical equipment. >>CheersYikes. It scares me to
    imagine anyone doing field repairs to medicalequipment.Our gear is always returned to the factory for repairs. We can replaceany bad parts with the correct part, QC the work, then run the fullautomated test and cal and archive a test report.And we learn
    about failure rates and mechanisms.

    Ok, how about automotive service manuals.
    Feel better?
    ;)
    Cheers
    A lot of stuff on my car can't be fixed by owners.
    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    Design and mfg for repairability for most consumer products went away decades ago. Throw away society and if you believe they work, electronic recycling facilities.
    Have relatives in the Boston area. Extended visits usually resulted in taking refuse to the local 'dump'...The dump had a sizable building with tables where ppl would put their (mostly electronic) stuff for recycling. Back in the day, retrieved a Apple
    power station (dead supply-easily fixed), 32" color tv ( short in HV section), Marantz 60watts am/fm receiver ( blown output transistors).
    One mans ceiling is another mans floor.
    J
    J

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Three Jeeps on Tue Jun 28 22:42:37 2022
    On 6/28/2022 9:21 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

    Design and mfg for repairability for most consumer products went away
    decades ago.

    Simple matter of labor costs. As product *price* falls, there's less
    and less room to accommodate repair/refurbishing.

    Sadly, "consumer" isn't the only market suffering from that affliction; businesses (here) routinely replace ALL of their workstations on short
    update cycles (18-36 months). Even KEYBOARDS have longer useful lives
    than that (and they experience the most wear).

    I see a lot of medical equipment (and DME), medicines, bicycles,
    scooters, wheelchairs, phones, copiers, etc. headed to the tip.

    Throw away society and if you believe they work, electronic
    recycling facilities.

    IME, all this does is get yesterday's kit into the hands of
    The Less Fortunate. E.g., a group I'm affiliated with refurbishes
    hundreds of PCs each month, distributing them for low/no cost
    ($20) to folks who are more needy.

    So, on the one hand, the item has been (temporarily) diverted
    from the land fill; on the other, we've effectively just created
    another *user* (and, there's likely no one "beneath" him when
    *he* discards the refurbished unit)

    The DME is perhaps the most disheartening because you know it
    represents a "real" need -- for someone. (yet, you often can't
    give the stuff away because what the recipient needs more than
    anything is the support that comes with a commercial sale!)

    Have relatives in the Boston area. Extended visits
    usually resulted in taking refuse to the local 'dump'...The dump had a sizable building with tables where ppl would put their (mostly electronic) stuff for recycling. Back in the day, retrieved a Apple power station
    (dead supply-easily fixed), 32" color tv ( short in HV section), Marantz 60watts am/fm receiver ( blown output transistors). One mans ceiling is another mans floor.

    I have 30 monitors (12 in use) that I've recapped or replaced blown FETs.

    Two laser printers (including several NIB toner cartridges). Discarded
    the color phasers, LaserJet 4M+ (w/duplexor), etc. cuz it was silly to
    maintain them given how little color printing I do (I can color print at
    the library -- from home! -- for $0.10/page).

    Two B-size ("Tabloid") flat bed scanners. A 40" wide format scanner.
    A couple of sheet-fed scanners.

    Half a dozen motion controllers. Box of mice and keyboards. A couple of digitizing tablets (discarded the D-size unit as it took up too much floor space). Discarded the pen plotters for similar reasons.

    Countless bits of test equipment -- usually just needing a recal cycle
    or trivial repair.

    Six laptops -- each in a carrying bag. Several servers. Six identical workstations. A dozen 1500VA sine-wave, networked UPSs. (plus several 2200-5000VA units).

    Each item "bought" for the scrap price that the "material recycler"
    would pay for them NOT broken down into their component parts (normally,
    items are disassembled so fans can be sold to one recycler, PCBs to
    another, tin/metal to a third, etc.). This because there are no
    users eager to inherit an 80 pound workstation or an oversized scanner,
    or a monitor with broken backlight PS, etc.

    [If you truly understood the magnitude of the throw-away problem, you'd approach design entirely differently!]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 10:39:57 2022
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Wed Jun 29 21:07:41 2022
    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 10:39:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 07:16:13 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 16:19:23 +1000, Chris Jones
    <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 28/06/2022 13:28, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> Wrote in message:r >>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r>> I usually build a document that describes the hardware,nominal voltages, waveforms, timing
    relationships, etc.Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions(along with those expected during specific diagnostics)I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,directly, instead of in a supplementary document.I'm not
    keen on this as it means schematics have to make roomto accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how tomaintain such a document if light of potential changes todiagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).Any folks preparing comparable
    documentation have suggestions?>>I would imagine a separate service manual would apply.>>CheersDoes anyone still do that?-- If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end
    in
    certainties.Francis Bacon

    Medical equipment.

    Cheers

    Yikes. It scares me to imagine anyone doing field repairs to medical >>>>> equipment.

    It is also a bit scary to imagine being treated in a hospital during an >>>> emergency, full of equipment that when it fails, cannot be repaired in >>>> the field, but must instead be sent to the same overseas facility that >>>> every other hospital in the world is trying to send their dead units to, >>>> (especially bearing in mind that whatever emergency may well put all the >>>> freight aircraft or their pilots out of action).

    There is an argument for only procuring medical equipment with proper
    service manuals, resistors big enough to have values marked on them, and >>>> a stock of spares of any programmable devices, or spares of any boards >>>> with massive BGAs, and no parts locked to each other by serial number. >>>> Those countries with nationalised healthcare do have sufficient buying >>>> power to dictate those terms if they want to, (much like the US military >>>> to test equipment manufacturers in the past).


    No surface-mount?

    Our FDA is absolutely fascist about quality. They pulled a pop
    inspection on one nearby outfit that made cancer-treatment gear. They
    discovered some new pcb's on the same bench as some repair units,
    which is against the rules. They shut down the facility for a year of
    re-training and re-qualification, and some of the engineers quit from
    boredom.

    Yes. Here's why:

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25>

    I read the what-happened reports from the day. What a bunch of hacks,
    even by the standards of that day.

    Joe Gwinn


    Another Crown Corporation success story. :(

    I had not heard of them before. I gather that they have an
    interesting history, maybe too interesting.

    The thing that caught my eye back then was the part where they removed
    the mechanical interlock. I've had bosses like that.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jul 2 16:17:00 2022
    On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 5:42:59 AM UTC, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:21 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

    Design and mfg for repairability for most consumer products went away decades ago.
    Simple matter of labor costs. As product *price* falls, there's less
    and less room to accommodate repair/refurbishing.

    Sadly, "consumer" isn't the only market suffering from that affliction; businesses (here) routinely replace ALL of their workstations on short
    update cycles (18-36 months). Even KEYBOARDS have longer useful lives
    than that (and they experience the most wear).

    I see a lot of medical equipment (and DME), medicines, bicycles,
    scooters, wheelchairs, phones, copiers, etc. headed to the tip.
    Throw away society and if you believe they work, electronic
    recycling facilities.
    IME, all this does is get yesterday's kit into the hands of
    The Less Fortunate. E.g., a group I'm affiliated with refurbishes
    hundreds of PCs each month, distributing them for low/no cost
    ($20) to folks who are more needy.

    So, on the one hand, the item has been (temporarily) diverted
    from the land fill; on the other, we've effectively just created
    another *user* (and, there's likely no one "beneath" him when
    *he* discards the refurbished unit)

    The DME is perhaps the most disheartening because you know it
    represents a "real" need -- for someone. (yet, you often can't
    give the stuff away because what the recipient needs more than
    anything is the support that comes with a commercial sale!)
    Have relatives in the Boston area. Extended visits
    usually resulted in taking refuse to the local 'dump'...The dump had a sizable building with tables where ppl would put their (mostly electronic) stuff for recycling. Back in the day, retrieved a Apple power station
    (dead supply-easily fixed), 32" color tv ( short in HV section), Marantz 60watts am/fm receiver ( blown output transistors). One mans ceiling is another mans floor.
    I have 30 monitors (12 in use) that I've recapped or replaced blown FETs.

    Two laser printers (including several NIB toner cartridges). Discarded
    the color phasers, LaserJet 4M+ (w/duplexor), etc. cuz it was silly to maintain them given how little color printing I do (I can color print at
    the library -- from home! -- for $0.10/page).

    Two B-size ("Tabloid") flat bed scanners. A 40" wide format scanner.
    A couple of sheet-fed scanners.

    Half a dozen motion controllers. Box of mice and keyboards. A couple of digitizing tablets (discarded the D-size unit as it took up too much floor space). Discarded the pen plotters for similar reasons.

    Countless bits of test equipment -- usually just needing a recal cycle
    or trivial repair.

    Six laptops -- each in a carrying bag. Several servers. Six identical workstations. A dozen 1500VA sine-wave, networked UPSs. (plus several 2200-5000VA units).

    Each item "bought" for the scrap price that the "material recycler"
    would pay for them NOT broken down into their component parts (normally, items are disassembled so fans can be sold to one recycler, PCBs to
    another, tin/metal to a third, etc.). This because there are no
    users eager to inherit an 80 pound workstation or an oversized scanner,
    or a monitor with broken backlight PS, etc.

    [If you truly understood the magnitude of the throw-away problem, you'd approach design entirely differently!]

    Hi Don Y,
    We drifted off original topic but this one
    is still very relevant to me.
    I would like to know, how should consumer
    product -- such as those you mentioned
    -- and its manufacturer -- be evaluated for their
    positive aspects towards sustainability and
    minimizing negative ecological impact. It is a
    whole area of study unto itself.
    Yes, my organization does
    happen to employ these people. But the devil
    is in the details -- what specifically about
    product "X" can make the most difference?
    Thanks, Rich S.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jul 2 16:54:40 2022
    On Sunday, June 26, 2022 at 2:11:41 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    I usually build a document that describes the hardware,
    nominal voltages, waveforms, timing relationships, etc.
    Plus, captured waveforms under different operating conditions
    (along with those expected during specific diagnostics)

    I'm getting some pushback to move these onto the schematics,
    directly, instead of in a supplementary document.

    I'm not keen on this as it means schematics have to make room
    to accommodate these annotations. And, I can't see how to
    maintain such a document if light of potential changes to
    diagnostics (which may be numerous for a given circuit).

    Any folks preparing comparable documentation have suggestions?

    I'm preparing a debugging guide. I was thinking of making it part of the test program, to pull up all the info needed, at the time of failure, but changed my mind. Better to separate those matters and let test proceed uninterrupted.

    In the end, I prepared an HTML document with the schematics showing the probe points (added to the PDF page) and PCB layout images showing the same along with tables of the voltages expected. Also included is text guiding through the process.

    I can't imagine this being on a schematic. While basic voltages might be useful, it's far more useful in the sort of document I provided.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sat Jul 2 19:24:12 2022
    On 7/2/2022 4:17 PM, Rich S wrote:
    [If you truly understood the magnitude of the throw-away problem, you'd
    approach design entirely differently!]

    We drifted off original topic but this one
    is still very relevant to me.
    I would like to know, how should consumer
    product -- such as those you mentioned
    -- and its manufacturer -- be evaluated for their
    positive aspects towards sustainability and
    minimizing negative ecological impact. It is a
    whole area of study unto itself.

    I think it is the nature of businesses to want for consumption.
    They need a constant revenue stream to survive. Building a "forever"
    product is one way to limit your success -- once everyone has
    purchased one, the market is exhausted!

    So, the first line of defense is to adjust customer expectations
    soas not to think they NEED a shiney new <whatever>. If you are
    a business -- and a stakeholder in said business -- then you
    can make an impact with policy. Do you really need to update
    all of your PC seats every time MS decides it needs a fresh
    injection of revenue? Or, apple? Is there something that
    application X can't do that you really REALLY need to do?
    Do you need it enough to warrant the OS (and hardware) upgrade
    that it might require??

    Is there some reason that 65 inch HD TV (i.e., the one that
    I rescued for our living room) is no longer "appropriate"
    for your conference room needs? If you are letting IT people
    make your equipment buying decisions/recommendations, perhaps
    lump IT equipment purchases into the budget *with* salaries so
    they get the message that money spent on "new toys" comes at
    a cost of "fewer raises"! It's really easy to recommend spending
    someone else's money -- esp if it gives you additional job
    security (more stuff to install/decommission/maintain!)

    Yes, my organization does
    happen to employ these people. But the devil
    is in the details -- what specifically about
    product "X" can make the most difference?

    There are lots of first-level recycling agencies. Their
    mission statements vary (ours is to divert materials
    from landfills through reuse, refurbishment or repurposing;
    resorting to "recycling" as a last resort).

    Recycling is incredibly labor intensive. If you had to
    pay folks to disassemble each bit of kit into:
    - sheet metal
    - plastics (discard)
    - valuable metals (clean aluminum, copper and gold)
    - circuit boards (from which metals could be reclaimed)
    - memory (which can often be reused, as is)
    - CPUs (for the gold on their pins)
    - fans (can be refurbished)
    - hardware (screws, etc. for their metal content)
    - disk drives (for the metal in their housings)
    etc. you find that it costs more for the labor than you can
    recover from the goods!

    [A consumer PC is "worth" about $5 if headed for the tip,
    regardless of whether there's an i7 inside or a 386; servers
    a fair bit more but largely because of the quantity and quality
    of the components]

    We rely on volunteer labor for this disassembly work. These
    are typically developmentally disabled "kids" (though they
    actually may be adults) under "adult" supervision. Their
    cognitive skills and manual dexterity are often compromised.

    So, it is easy for a mechanism (assembly structure) to be
    too complex for them to sort out. Simple, mainstream
    fasteners (phillips) of significant size and placement are
    easiest. Slotted screwdrivers are often harder to position
    in the fastener. And, often used as prybars -- which can slip
    and find their way into the flesh of a palm!

    If they have to resort to several different tools to
    disassemble something, you end up with mangled tools
    and frustrated workers (they were using a #0 phillips to
    remove a small screw and then continued to use it in an
    attempt to loosen a #2 screw! or, an 1/8" cabinet tip
    slotted screwdriver to loosen something considerably meatier!)

    Things that snap or slide together without special tools are
    best. All they have to do is be shown the proper motion
    to separate the items. Then, told which bin to place each.
    (someone has to sort through the bins after each "shift"
    to be sure stuff didn't get mixed where not intended).

    The downstream recyclers will get annoyed -- and significantly
    lower the price per pound they will pay us -- if things aren't
    properly sorted. A large copper heatsink with bits of mounting
    bracket still attached loses its value as it has to be further
    processed. Even as a nonprofit with only a couple of bodies
    "on staff", someone still has to pay the rent, lights,
    insurance, truck/forklift maintenance, etc.

    And, as prices are for BATCHES of stuff, if there are too many
    (no idea who makes that determination, nor how!) items that
    aren't "clean", then the entire batch (which is likely a
    Gaylord) is repriced at the lower rate. I.e., the value of the
    *good* work is lost in a stroke of the pen due to a few bad apples!

    The old 68K Macs were ideal in this sense; one screw and everything slid/snapped apart. But, there was a lot of plastic involved so
    that's a downside (there is NO recycle value to plastic; sheet metal
    is like $0.01/pound!)

    There's a perverse economy, here. Durable kit is likely harder
    to disassemble -- and, thus, recycle -- owing to the use
    of more plentiful fasteners and components. E.g., my workstations
    would have been recycled as "complete units" (at the much lower
    rate) simply because they require too much effort and "skill"
    to "decompose". So, don't buy durable kit unless you plan on giving
    it extra life! Or, rather, DO buy durable kit and PLAN on giving it
    extra life!

    Don't buy "toy" UPSs -- because you *won't* replace the batteries!
    Or, you will defer that activity until the batteries are hopelessly
    swollen inside the unit. A UPS is worth (recycle value) as much as
    a PC -- simply because of the weight associated with the transformer!

    [Pull the batteries and recycle them separately; you can expect about $0.20/pound for a battery whereas the UPS might be worth $0.10/pound]

    [[I've rescued large (2200VA) UPSs NIB! Complete with the shipping
    labels intact! Gotta wonder if anyone had to answer for that "needless" purchase <frown> ]]

    Finally, THINK about what you're going to do when an item has reached
    the end of its useful life FOR YOU. I tell people to think about how
    they are going to dispose of items BEFORE they purchase them. PCs tend to
    have extendable markets -- there is always some underprivileged kid or
    school district that could make use of 500 "used" PCs -- *if* someone
    has refurbished them and reinstalled OS/apps. But, the sheer number of
    such recycled items means even that "market" will quickly be saturated.

    Then, what do you do?

    We've sent entire dentist offices to Guatemala, SEMs to universities in
    MX, etc. They will likely extract every last bit of useful life out
    of those items. Much more aggressively than their donor corporations
    did!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jul 3 14:25:37 2022
    On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 2:24:26 AM UTC, Don Y wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 4:17 PM, Rich S wrote:
    [If you truly understood the magnitude of the throw-away problem, you'd
    approach design entirely differently!]

    We drifted off original topic but this one
    is still very relevant to me.
    I would like to know, how should consumer
    product -- such as those you mentioned
    -- and its manufacturer -- be evaluated for their
    positive aspects towards sustainability and
    minimizing negative ecological impact. It is a
    whole area of study unto itself.
    I think it is the nature of businesses to want for consumption.
    They need a constant revenue stream to survive. Building a "forever"
    product is one way to limit your success -- once everyone has
    purchased one, the market is exhausted!

    So, the first line of defense is to adjust customer expectations
    soas not to think they NEED a shiney new <whatever>. If you are
    a business -- and a stakeholder in said business -- then you
    can make an impact with policy. Do you really need to update
    all of your PC seats every time MS decides it needs a fresh
    injection of revenue? Or, apple? Is there something that
    application X can't do that you really REALLY need to do?
    Do you need it enough to warrant the OS (and hardware) upgrade
    that it might require??

    Is there some reason that 65 inch HD TV (i.e., the one that
    I rescued for our living room) is no longer "appropriate"
    for your conference room needs? If you are letting IT people
    make your equipment buying decisions/recommendations, perhaps
    lump IT equipment purchases into the budget *with* salaries so
    they get the message that money spent on "new toys" comes at
    a cost of "fewer raises"! It's really easy to recommend spending
    someone else's money -- esp if it gives you additional job
    security (more stuff to install/decommission/maintain!)
    Yes, my organization does
    happen to employ these people. But the devil
    is in the details -- what specifically about
    product "X" can make the most difference?
    There are lots of first-level recycling agencies. Their
    mission statements vary (ours is to divert materials
    from landfills through reuse, refurbishment or repurposing;
    resorting to "recycling" as a last resort).

    Recycling is incredibly labor intensive. If you had to
    pay folks to disassemble each bit of kit into:
    - sheet metal
    - plastics (discard)
    - valuable metals (clean aluminum, copper and gold)
    - circuit boards (from which metals could be reclaimed)
    - memory (which can often be reused, as is)
    - CPUs (for the gold on their pins)
    - fans (can be refurbished)
    - hardware (screws, etc. for their metal content)
    - disk drives (for the metal in their housings)
    etc. you find that it costs more for the labor than you can
    recover from the goods!

    [A consumer PC is "worth" about $5 if headed for the tip,
    regardless of whether there's an i7 inside or a 386; servers
    a fair bit more but largely because of the quantity and quality
    of the components]

    We rely on volunteer labor for this disassembly work. These
    are typically developmentally disabled "kids" (though they
    actually may be adults) under "adult" supervision. Their
    cognitive skills and manual dexterity are often compromised.

    So, it is easy for a mechanism (assembly structure) to be
    too complex for them to sort out. Simple, mainstream
    fasteners (phillips) of significant size and placement are
    easiest. Slotted screwdrivers are often harder to position
    in the fastener. And, often used as prybars -- which can slip
    and find their way into the flesh of a palm!

    If they have to resort to several different tools to
    disassemble something, you end up with mangled tools
    and frustrated workers (they were using a #0 phillips to
    remove a small screw and then continued to use it in an
    attempt to loosen a #2 screw! or, an 1/8" cabinet tip
    slotted screwdriver to loosen something considerably meatier!)

    Things that snap or slide together without special tools are
    best. All they have to do is be shown the proper motion
    to separate the items. Then, told which bin to place each.
    (someone has to sort through the bins after each "shift"
    to be sure stuff didn't get mixed where not intended).

    The downstream recyclers will get annoyed -- and significantly
    lower the price per pound they will pay us -- if things aren't
    properly sorted. A large copper heatsink with bits of mounting
    bracket still attached loses its value as it has to be further
    processed. Even as a nonprofit with only a couple of bodies
    "on staff", someone still has to pay the rent, lights,
    insurance, truck/forklift maintenance, etc.

    And, as prices are for BATCHES of stuff, if there are too many
    (no idea who makes that determination, nor how!) items that
    aren't "clean", then the entire batch (which is likely a
    Gaylord) is repriced at the lower rate. I.e., the value of the
    *good* work is lost in a stroke of the pen due to a few bad apples!

    The old 68K Macs were ideal in this sense; one screw and everything slid/snapped apart. But, there was a lot of plastic involved so
    that's a downside (there is NO recycle value to plastic; sheet metal
    is like $0.01/pound!)

    There's a perverse economy, here. Durable kit is likely harder
    to disassemble -- and, thus, recycle -- owing to the use
    of more plentiful fasteners and components. E.g., my workstations
    would have been recycled as "complete units" (at the much lower
    rate) simply because they require too much effort and "skill"
    to "decompose". So, don't buy durable kit unless you plan on giving
    it extra life! Or, rather, DO buy durable kit and PLAN on giving it
    extra life!

    Don't buy "toy" UPSs -- because you *won't* replace the batteries!
    Or, you will defer that activity until the batteries are hopelessly
    swollen inside the unit. A UPS is worth (recycle value) as much as
    a PC -- simply because of the weight associated with the transformer!

    [Pull the batteries and recycle them separately; you can expect about $0.20/pound for a battery whereas the UPS might be worth $0.10/pound]

    [[I've rescued large (2200VA) UPSs NIB! Complete with the shipping
    labels intact! Gotta wonder if anyone had to answer for that "needless" purchase <frown> ]]

    Finally, THINK about what you're going to do when an item has reached
    the end of its useful life FOR YOU. I tell people to think about how
    they are going to dispose of items BEFORE they purchase them. PCs tend to have extendable markets -- there is always some underprivileged kid or
    school district that could make use of 500 "used" PCs -- *if* someone
    has refurbished them and reinstalled OS/apps. But, the sheer number of
    such recycled items means even that "market" will quickly be saturated.

    Then, what do you do?

    We've sent entire dentist offices to Guatemala, SEMs to universities in
    MX, etc. They will likely extract every last bit of useful life out
    of those items. Much more aggressively than their donor corporations
    did!


    Thank you Don for the elaborate details. I expected little or none,
    you provided a wealth of ideas. Have you put these thoughts
    and experiences into a blog? SED is not quite the right place.
    I expect you have more to say ;-)
    Cheers, Rich S.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sun Jul 3 15:27:02 2022
    On 7/3/2022 2:25 PM, Rich S wrote:
    Thank you Don for the elaborate details. I expected little or none,
    you provided a wealth of ideas.

    I don't think many people actually *think* about what is required to
    "recycle" something. It's as if it magically goes from a dropoff location
    to "X% recycled content".

    Sadly, electronic items are hard to truly recycle because the technology
    is so quickly outdated. We can better recycle (refurbish) a peristaltic
    pump than a computer -- mechanisms tend not to go obsolete as quickly.

    Have you put these thoughts
    and experiences into a blog? SED is not quite the right place.
    I expect you have more to say ;-)

    No. It is actually very depressing when you see truckloads (semi's)
    full of stuff pull in and know you'll only be able to "recover" a
    small percentage of their contents.

    When I've taken friends through for "tours", they are impressed
    by the quantity of goods. Instead, they should be APPALLED!

    And, you feel like an "enabler" -- the firm donating the items likely
    thinks they are doing their part... if they truly knew how inefficient
    their efforts were, you wonder if they would:
    - stop trying
    - try harder (including reconsidering their purchases)!

    At the same time, when Ma&Pa Kettle drive in with some 20 year
    old PC that they want to donate -- thinking some needy kid will
    benefit from their donation... you can't tell them that it's just
    so much *scrap*! :<

    Look around your area. I'm sure there are some folks doing this sort
    of thing (I've managed to find groups in various parts of the country).
    A tour can be enlightening (depressing).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Allen Shieh@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 15 20:26:22 2022
    在 2022年7月4日星期一 UTC+8 06:27:22,<Don Y> 写道:
    On 7/3/2022 2:25 PM, Rich S wrote:
    Thank you Don for the elaborate details. I expected little or none,
    you provided a wealth of ideas.
    I don't think many people actually *think* about what is required to "recycle" something. It's as if it magically goes from a dropoff location
    to "X% recycled content".

    Sadly, electronic items are hard to truly recycle because the technology
    is so quickly outdated. We can better recycle (refurbish) a peristaltic
    pump than a computer -- mechanisms tend not to go obsolete as quickly.
    Have you put these thoughts
    and experiences into a blog? SED is not quite the right place.
    I expect you have more to say ;-)
    No. It is actually very depressing when you see truckloads (semi's)
    full of stuff pull in and know you'll only be able to "recover" a
    small percentage of their contents.

    When I've taken friends through for "tours", they are impressed
    by the quantity of goods. Instead, they should be APPALLED!

    And, you feel like an "enabler" -- the firm donating the items likely
    thinks they are doing their part... if they truly knew how inefficient
    their efforts were, you wonder if they would:
    - stop trying
    - try harder (including reconsidering their purchases)!

    At the same time, when Ma&Pa Kettle drive in with some 20 year
    old PC that they want to donate -- thinking some needy kid will
    benefit from their donation... you can't tell them that it's just
    so much *scrap*! :<

    Look around your area. I'm sure there are some folks doing this sort
    of thing (I've managed to find groups in various parts of the country).
    A tour can be enlightening (depressing).
    Following articles can help you have a better understand of Medical grade TPU cable and Silicone cable

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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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