• 4-bit MCU Availability - Again

    From Ricky@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 11 11:12:05 2022
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Jun 11 11:23:03 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.


    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sales@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sat Jun 11 11:52:48 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU

    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using 8
    bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 11 12:14:01 2022
    lørdag den 11. juni 2022 kl. 20.52.52 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU
    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using 8
    bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.

    istm that power isn't _that_ critical in a remote control, it only needs to run when you push a button and
    then the major power consumption is the transmitter




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Sat Jun 11 16:09:03 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    lørdag den 11. juni 2022 kl. 20.52.52 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU
    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using 8
    bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.
    istm that power isn't _that_ critical in a remote control, it only needs to run when you push a button and
    then the major power consumption is the transmitter

    "Isn't *that* critical"? No, nothing about a remote control is *critical*. The lower the power, the better until you match the self current of the battery. Given the battery lasts as long as 10 years on the shelf, I've never had a remote battery last
    that long. Also, the lower the current drain, the smaller the battery can be. They tend to be AAA now.

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned off and you press a button to turn on
    the remote, then press the button you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection, so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit MCU that draws very, very little current
    when running.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Jun 11 16:22:10 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 4:09:08 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    lørdag den 11. juni 2022 kl. 20.52.52 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU
    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using
    8 bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.
    istm that power isn't _that_ critical in a remote control, it only needs to run when you push a button and
    then the major power consumption is the transmitter
    "Isn't *that* critical"? No, nothing about a remote control is *critical*. The lower the power, the better until you match the self current of the battery. Given the battery lasts as long as 10 years on the shelf, I've never had a remote battery last
    that long. Also, the lower the current drain, the smaller the battery can be. They tend to be AAA now.

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned off and you press a button to turn on
    the remote, then press the button you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection, so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit MCU that draws very, very little current
    when running.

    MCU draws very little current when sleeping, then wake up on button interrupt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to boB on Sat Jun 11 17:53:37 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 8:21:59 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:
    On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 11:12:05 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.
    Were you able to download information on these ? The product table
    has a download column on the right side but they appear to be dead,
    even looking at the source there is nothing.

    No, I got nowhere. Tritan was no better requiring a login while not allowing you to sign up

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From boB@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sat Jun 11 17:21:51 2022
    On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 11:12:05 -0700 (PDT), Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.


    Were you able to download information on these ? The product table
    has a download column on the right side but they appear to be dead,
    even looking at the source there is nothing.

    boB

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Platt@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sat Jun 11 21:45:38 2022
    In article <e71be537-a2eb-4eed-8e13-83c9e9f7b9c3n@googlegroups.com>,
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It >doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from
    only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned
    off and you press a button to turn on the remote, then press the button
    you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection,
    so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess
    they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit
    MCU that draws very, very little current when running.

    Some deep-low-power MCUs these days have specialized logic for this
    purpose. There's a static (non-clocked) pin-state-change detection
    circuit for one or more of the pins, which will operate even if the
    core of the MCU is clock-stopped. In a typical implementation,
    this circuit can trigger an interrupt which brings the MCU out of
    a clock-stopped idle state (with some amount of latency as the
    clock oscillator starts up again).

    This gets the power usage down to "static CMOS" levels of leakage.

    Fancier chips will have multiple power wells on the die, with the
    ability to turn off power to non-essential peripherals and even
    to the core itself. In those designs, only the pin-change
    circuitry may actually be powered up when the MCU is standing
    by - the core may be powered down.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jun 12 12:12:27 2022
    On 11/06/2022 19:52, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU

    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using
    8 bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.

    That is far from clear. Once you go below 1uA standing current the
    battery life might even be slightly enhanced by a tiny current flow.

    Most of them can be configured to be at least an order of magnitude less
    around 0.1uA in sleep mode and have a wake up on button pressed.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Jun 12 04:31:53 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 4:12:35 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 11/06/2022 19:52, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU

    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using 8
    bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.
    That is far from clear. Once you go below 1uA standing current the
    battery life might even be slightly enhanced by a tiny current flow.

    Most of them can be configured to be at least an order of magnitude less around 0.1uA in sleep mode and have a wake up on button pressed.

    10uA standby will last 10 years on 1000mAh battery. If the OP is willing to spend a few more cents, an 8 bit OTP MCU is far more capable (including A2D):

    https://www.holtek.com/documents/10179/116711/HT46R064B_065B_066Bv120.pdf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sun Jun 12 06:24:50 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:31:58 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 4:12:35 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 11/06/2022 19:52, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:23:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    This one at least have an email you can try:

    sa...@tritan.com.tw

    https://www.tritan.com.tw/en/Products/2/1152/4-bit-OTP-MCU

    No way to look at datasheets. They require you to login, but no way to register to get a login. So no idea what their products are like. I'm not interested enough to email them if I can't even view a data sheet. Insane!

    I recall companies (mostly Asian) who provide data sheets, where copying text is locked out! Why would anyone want to prevent me from copying details of their data sheet? It makes it very inconvenient for me to include their data in my board
    documentation and does NOTHING to prevent their competition from gaining access to it.

    The world is weird.

    Thanks for the link. At least I know of two companies who make these things. What I'd really like to know is how many they sell each year. I'm thinking it's a LOT since so many products use them. Some have suggested many of those products are using
    8 bit MCUs. There's one Chinese company that is available on LCSC with an 8-bit MCU at about $0.03 each, qty 100. That's insane!

    In addition to the cost, there's the power issue. Remote controls need to be as low power as possible.
    That is far from clear. Once you go below 1uA standing current the
    battery life might even be slightly enhanced by a tiny current flow.

    Most of them can be configured to be at least an order of magnitude less around 0.1uA in sleep mode and have a wake up on button pressed.
    10uA standby will last 10 years on 1000mAh battery. If the OP is willing to spend a few more cents, an 8 bit OTP MCU is far more capable (including A2D):

    https://www.holtek.com/documents/10179/116711/HT46R064B_065B_066Bv120.pdf

    What makes you think you can't get an ADC in a 4-bit MCU?

    You never understand the design process. At qty 1,000,000, no one cares about having "more capable" processors. They need what they need and will pay for nothing extra. I guess this doesn't surprise me, coming from you.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Dave Platt on Sun Jun 12 06:35:20 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:45:53 AM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <e71be537-a2eb-4eed...@googlegroups.com>,
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It >doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from >only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned
    off and you press a button to turn on the remote, then press the button >you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection,
    so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess
    they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit
    MCU that draws very, very little current when running.
    Some deep-low-power MCUs these days have specialized logic for this
    purpose. There's a static (non-clocked) pin-state-change detection
    circuit for one or more of the pins, which will operate even if the
    core of the MCU is clock-stopped. In a typical implementation,
    this circuit can trigger an interrupt which brings the MCU out of
    a clock-stopped idle state (with some amount of latency as the
    clock oscillator starts up again).

    This gets the power usage down to "static CMOS" levels of leakage.

    Fancier chips will have multiple power wells on the die, with the
    ability to turn off power to non-essential peripherals and even
    to the core itself. In those designs, only the pin-change
    circuitry may actually be powered up when the MCU is standing
    by - the core may be powered down.

    On many remote controls, there are enough buttons they need to be multiplexed. I suppose it is possible to connect every I/O pin to a change detector.

    "Fancier chips" is not what this is about. It is about the absolute lowest cost product. Even the pin state change detector might price the device above the competition. Not only is there die area costs, but tiny chips like these are dominated by the
    time spent on the tester.

    This is the sort of situation where you can devise all sorts of fancy fasteners that have many advantages, but a nail is going to win the contest every time.

    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU probable
    runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jun 12 07:26:00 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:35:24 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:45:53 AM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <e71be537-a2eb-4eed...@googlegroups.com>,
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It >doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from >only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned
    off and you press a button to turn on the remote, then press the button >you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection, >so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess >they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit >MCU that draws very, very little current when running.
    Some deep-low-power MCUs these days have specialized logic for this purpose. There's a static (non-clocked) pin-state-change detection
    circuit for one or more of the pins, which will operate even if the
    core of the MCU is clock-stopped. In a typical implementation,
    this circuit can trigger an interrupt which brings the MCU out of
    a clock-stopped idle state (with some amount of latency as the
    clock oscillator starts up again).

    This gets the power usage down to "static CMOS" levels of leakage.

    Fancier chips will have multiple power wells on the die, with the
    ability to turn off power to non-essential peripherals and even
    to the core itself. In those designs, only the pin-change
    circuitry may actually be powered up when the MCU is standing
    by - the core may be powered down.
    On many remote controls, there are enough buttons they need to be multiplexed. I suppose it is possible to connect every I/O pin to a change detector.

    You can still multiplex on pin change interrupt. The Holtek chip has 18 to 26 pins to multiplex.

    "Fancier chips" is not what this is about. It is about the absolute lowest cost product. Even the pin state change detector might price the device above the competition. Not only is there die area costs, but tiny chips like these are dominated by the
    time spent on the tester.

    So, not much difference between 4 bits or 8 bits. You are dealing with much smaller segment in 4 bit manufacturers, and they usually want more profit.

    This is the sort of situation where you can devise all sorts of fancy fasteners that have many advantages, but a nail is going to win the contest every time.

    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU probable
    runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    The Holtek chip can run on timer interrupt at 10uA for 10 years. Spec-ing battery for more than 10 years is just meaningless.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 12 07:40:54 2022
    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU probable
    runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    I have done pin change interrupt on 32KHz AVR. There was no perceptible lag. It takes more time to turn on the LCD than interrupt trigging.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sun Jun 12 15:57:51 2022
    On 12/06/2022 15:40, Ed Lee wrote:
    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU
    probable runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    I have done pin change interrupt on 32KHz AVR. There was no perceptible lag. It takes more time to turn on the LCD than interrupt trigging.

    Humans are pretty slow when compared to a 32kHz clock. The chips I use
    actually clock at 8kHz when used with a 32kHz watch xtal. You still
    can't notice any lag on button press.

    Once you are running on a low power watch crystal and in a decent low
    power mode it doesn't make much difference to battery life whether the
    thing draws 1uA or 0.1uA. Even as much as 10uA still gives you 10^5
    hours or >10 years per Ah of battery.

    There is a tendency to use micro button cells with lower capacities in
    tiny remotes these days but even so the 24/7 CPU drain is miniscule when compared to the transmit power of the IR or RF when sending a command.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Jun 12 08:06:22 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:57:59 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 12/06/2022 15:40, Ed Lee wrote:
    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU
    probable runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    I have done pin change interrupt on 32KHz AVR. There was no perceptible lag. It takes more time to turn on the LCD than interrupt trigging.
    Humans are pretty slow when compared to a 32kHz clock. The chips I use actually clock at 8kHz when used with a 32kHz watch xtal. You still
    can't notice any lag on button press.

    Once you are running on a low power watch crystal and in a decent low
    power mode it doesn't make much difference to battery life whether the
    thing draws 1uA or 0.1uA. Even as much as 10uA still gives you 10^5
    hours or >10 years per Ah of battery.

    There is a tendency to use micro button cells with lower capacities in
    tiny remotes these days but even so the 24/7 CPU drain is miniscule when compared to the transmit power of the IR or RF when sending a command.

    We did a project with the $1 AVR and 25c Holtek equivalent OTP chip. AVR draws more power when running, but less in sleeping. Our customer did not ask for cheaper chip (in 10k Qty) or longer battery life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Three Jeeps@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jun 12 15:33:39 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    I personally don't see the need for a 4 bit cpu. I see them as costing approximately the same as 8 bit cpus because they are a 'specialty' device. My past designs were with the TI MSP430 or the microchip. you may want to check out stmicroelectronics -
    STM32g031 @ $1.80 USD in 100's is pretty cheap. Suppose you find a 4 bit @ <$1.00 USD, I suspect the additional cost of tools and time to program will easily offset the cost.
    I don't know all your requirements so pls take these suggestions as just that. You may have already checked them out.
    J

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  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Three Jeeps on Sun Jun 12 18:58:50 2022
    On 6/12/2022 6:33 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    I personally don't see the need for a 4 bit cpu. I see them as costing approximately the same as 8 bit cpus because they are a 'specialty' device. My past designs were with the TI MSP430 or the microchip. you may want to check out stmicroelectronics
    - STM32g031 @ $1.80 USD in 100's is pretty cheap. Suppose you find a 4 bit @ <$1.00 USD, I suspect the additional cost of tools and time to program will easily offset the cost.
    I don't know all your requirements so pls take these suggestions as just that. You may have already checked them out.
    J


    I don't see much power-saving advantage to a 4 bit CPU, either, modern 8
    bit microcontrollers can be put into sub-uA sleep waiting on a pin
    change interrupt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sun Jun 12 17:56:08 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:58:57 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/12/2022 6:33 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    I personally don't see the need for a 4 bit cpu. I see them as costing approximately the same as 8 bit cpus because they are a 'specialty' device. My past designs were with the TI MSP430 or the microchip. you may want to check out stmicroelectronics -
    STM32g031 @ $1.80 USD in 100's is pretty cheap. Suppose you find a 4 bit @ <$1.00 USD, I suspect the additional cost of tools and time to program will easily offset the cost.
    I don't know all your requirements so pls take these suggestions as just that. You may have already checked them out.
    J

    I don't see much power-saving advantage to a 4 bit CPU, either, modern 8
    bit microcontrollers can be put into sub-uA sleep waiting on a pin
    change interrupt.

    Can they be put to sleep waiting for any key on the keypad to be pressed? I've just never seen a device that had that flexibility.

    I was actually hoping to hear from some people who design products that sell millions and only have a need for a very limited processor, like a 4 bit device. There was one guy in particular who used to post here and designed toys. He talked about
    design reviews removing a resistor they felt was not important enough to retain because of the cost.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Jun 12 18:50:52 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:56:13 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:58:57 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/12/2022 6:33 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    I personally don't see the need for a 4 bit cpu. I see them as costing approximately the same as 8 bit cpus because they are a 'specialty' device. My past designs were with the TI MSP430 or the microchip. you may want to check out
    stmicroelectronics - STM32g031 @ $1.80 USD in 100's is pretty cheap. Suppose you find a 4 bit @ <$1.00 USD, I suspect the additional cost of tools and time to program will easily offset the cost.
    I don't know all your requirements so pls take these suggestions as just that. You may have already checked them out.
    J

    I don't see much power-saving advantage to a 4 bit CPU, either, modern 8 bit microcontrollers can be put into sub-uA sleep waiting on a pin
    change interrupt.
    Can they be put to sleep waiting for any key on the keypad to be pressed? I've just never seen a device that had that flexibility.

    Yes, that's the point of pin change interrupt. As long as you have the trigger pins (if not all) on the rows or columns of a matrix, it will wake up on any key. This is a very common feature on almost all micros: msp430, avr, pic, etc.

    I was actually hoping to hear from some people who design products that sell millions and only have a need for a very limited processor, like a 4 bit device. There was one guy in particular who used to post here and designed toys. He talked about
    design reviews removing a resistor they felt was not important enough to retain because of the cost.

    As you said before, the price difference between 4 bits and 8 bits will be overwhelmed by setup, programming, testing and packaging costs. Unless you are ready to commit to 1M OTP parts now, you have to worry about them still available when you are
    ready for volume. When customer says they will buy hundreds of thousand, we usually go with 10k batch to start.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John S@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Mon Jun 13 15:31:08 2022
    On 6/12/2022 9:26 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:35:24 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:45:53 AM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <e71be537-a2eb-4eed...@googlegroups.com>,
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It >>>> doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from >>>> only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned
    off and you press a button to turn on the remote, then press the button >>>> you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection, >>>> so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess
    they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit
    MCU that draws very, very little current when running.
    Some deep-low-power MCUs these days have specialized logic for this
    purpose. There's a static (non-clocked) pin-state-change detection
    circuit for one or more of the pins, which will operate even if the
    core of the MCU is clock-stopped. In a typical implementation,
    this circuit can trigger an interrupt which brings the MCU out of
    a clock-stopped idle state (with some amount of latency as the
    clock oscillator starts up again).

    This gets the power usage down to "static CMOS" levels of leakage.

    Fancier chips will have multiple power wells on the die, with the
    ability to turn off power to non-essential peripherals and even
    to the core itself. In those designs, only the pin-change
    circuitry may actually be powered up when the MCU is standing
    by - the core may be powered down.
    On many remote controls, there are enough buttons they need to be multiplexed. I suppose it is possible to connect every I/O pin to a change detector.

    You can still multiplex on pin change interrupt. The Holtek chip has 18 to 26 pins to multiplex.

    "Fancier chips" is not what this is about. It is about the absolute lowest cost product. Even the pin state change detector might price the device above the competition. Not only is there die area costs, but tiny chips like these are dominated by the
    time spent on the tester.

    So, not much difference between 4 bits or 8 bits. You are dealing with much smaller segment in 4 bit manufacturers, and they usually want more profit.

    This is the sort of situation where you can devise all sorts of fancy fasteners that have many advantages, but a nail is going to win the contest every time.

    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU
    probable runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    The Holtek chip can run on timer interrupt at 10uA for 10 years. Spec-ing battery for more than 10 years is just meaningless.

    Dunno about that. 10 years at 10uA is about 876mA-hours.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to John S on Mon Jun 13 20:32:01 2022
    On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 1:31:23 PM UTC-7, John S wrote:
    On 6/12/2022 9:26 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:35:24 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:45:53 AM UTC-4, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <e71be537-a2eb-4eed...@googlegroups.com>,
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    The MCU has to run all the time to "see" that you pressed a button. It >>>> doesn't have to run 100% of the time to do that, but it's a far cry from
    only when you press the button. It's not like the MCU is just turned >>>> off and you press a button to turn on the remote, then press the button >>>> you want to send.
    I suppose they could diode OR the buttons to the MCU power connection, >>>> so the MCU is off until a button is pressed. Do they do that? I guess >>>> they want to save the cost of the diodes, so instead they use a 4-bit >>>> MCU that draws very, very little current when running.
    Some deep-low-power MCUs these days have specialized logic for this
    purpose. There's a static (non-clocked) pin-state-change detection
    circuit for one or more of the pins, which will operate even if the
    core of the MCU is clock-stopped. In a typical implementation,
    this circuit can trigger an interrupt which brings the MCU out of
    a clock-stopped idle state (with some amount of latency as the
    clock oscillator starts up again).

    This gets the power usage down to "static CMOS" levels of leakage.

    Fancier chips will have multiple power wells on the die, with the
    ability to turn off power to non-essential peripherals and even
    to the core itself. In those designs, only the pin-change
    circuitry may actually be powered up when the MCU is standing
    by - the core may be powered down.
    On many remote controls, there are enough buttons they need to be multiplexed. I suppose it is possible to connect every I/O pin to a change detector.

    You can still multiplex on pin change interrupt. The Holtek chip has 18 to 26 pins to multiplex.

    "Fancier chips" is not what this is about. It is about the absolute lowest cost product. Even the pin state change detector might price the device above the competition. Not only is there die area costs, but tiny chips like these are dominated by
    the time spent on the tester.

    So, not much difference between 4 bits or 8 bits. You are dealing with much smaller segment in 4 bit manufacturers, and they usually want more profit.

    This is the sort of situation where you can devise all sorts of fancy fasteners that have many advantages, but a nail is going to win the contest every time.

    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU
    probable runs at a similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so needs to be adequately low.

    The Holtek chip can run on timer interrupt at 10uA for 10 years. Spec-ing battery for more than 10 years is just meaningless.
    Dunno about that. 10 years at 10uA is about 876mA-hours.

    Typical alkaline AAA battery is 860 to 1,200mAhr, but you might need two or three for the voltage. Rechargeable 18650 is typically 2200mAhr at 4V, but it might be too thick for remote.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to John S on Tue Jun 14 09:22:48 2022
    On 13/06/2022 21:31, John S wrote:
    On 6/12/2022 9:26 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:35:24 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

    Keeping the entire chip in zero power state other than a low rate RC
    oscillator to wake up the device is going to win this contest every
    time. For the remote control, it has to wake up maybe 5 times a
    second to prevent perceptible lag. The CPU probable runs at a
    similarly slow clock rate, then shuts off. This is going on 24/7, so
    needs to be adequately low.

    This is nonsense - most low power MCUs today have a sleep mode
    (sometimes a deep sleep mode too) and wake up on input pin level change interrupt. Even on a cheap low power watch xtal at 32kHz the time lag
    for a button press is imperceptible to a human.

    The Holtek chip can run on timer interrupt at 10uA for 10 years.
    Spec-ing battery for more than 10 years is just meaningless.

    Dunno about that. 10 years at 10uA is about 876mA-hours.

    10 years is broadly comparable with the shelf life of most commonly
    available decent quality batteries. Working life may sometimes be
    slightly extended by a very small current flowing in an external load.
    The only snag is that some brands (Duracell I'm looking at you) corrode
    on a timescale that is shorter than their working life at very low
    currents. My favoured batteries these days are Panasonic and Eveready.

    You can get various exotic chemistry batteries for low currents with a
    ~40+ year working life for specialist applications (at a price).

    https://embeddedcomputing.com/technology/analog-and-power/low-battery-self-discharge-the-key-to-long-life-remote-wireless-sensors

    To go longer than that you are into thermal electric generators and
    radioactive decay of eg Pu238 as still powers the Voyager probes nearly
    50 years on since they were launched.

    https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/plutonium-238-production.html


    Zamboni piles are another technology that can almost last forever as
    long as you don't want them to do much work (well almost any). Mine is a
    just post WWII era night vision PSU and is still going strong. The limit
    of the work it can do is attract a piece of aluminium foil from one
    terminal to the other (until the metal work hardens and snaps off). A
    paupers version of this amazing physics demo running since 1840

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Tue Jun 14 09:04:29 2022
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 9:50:57 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:56:13 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 6:58:57 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/12/2022 6:33 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    I personally don't see the need for a 4 bit cpu. I see them as costing approximately the same as 8 bit cpus because they are a 'specialty' device. My past designs were with the TI MSP430 or the microchip. you may want to check out
    stmicroelectronics - STM32g031 @ $1.80 USD in 100's is pretty cheap. Suppose you find a 4 bit @ <$1.00 USD, I suspect the additional cost of tools and time to program will easily offset the cost.
    I don't know all your requirements so pls take these suggestions as just that. You may have already checked them out.
    J

    I don't see much power-saving advantage to a 4 bit CPU, either, modern 8 bit microcontrollers can be put into sub-uA sleep waiting on a pin change interrupt.
    Can they be put to sleep waiting for any key on the keypad to be pressed? I've just never seen a device that had that flexibility.
    Yes, that's the point of pin change interrupt. As long as you have the trigger pins (if not all) on the rows or columns of a matrix, it will wake up on any key. This is a very common feature on almost all micros: msp430, avr, pic, etc.

    Oh, you mean the higher priced parts...


    I was actually hoping to hear from some people who design products that sell millions and only have a need for a very limited processor, like a 4 bit device. There was one guy in particular who used to post here and designed toys. He talked about
    design reviews removing a resistor they felt was not important enough to retain because of the cost.
    As you said before, the price difference between 4 bits and 8 bits will be overwhelmed by setup, programming, testing and packaging costs. Unless you are ready to commit to 1M OTP parts now, you have to worry about them still available when you are
    ready for volume. When customer says they will buy hundreds of thousand, we usually go with 10k batch to start.

    Packaging? What packaging? At this quantity, they use chip on board. There's no programming. That's done at the mask level. This is why I was looking for people with specific experience with high volume, low cost devices.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Eather@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 15 10:39:34 2022
    On 12/06/2022 4:12 am, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.


    Dude, just use a low power 8 bit MCU. No appreciable difference in power consumption.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to David Eather on Tue Jun 14 21:21:45 2022
    On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 8:39:42 PM UTC-4, David Eather wrote:
    On 12/06/2022 4:12 am, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    Dude, just use a low power 8 bit MCU. No appreciable difference in power consumption.

    Dude, that isn't the question.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 15 08:18:26 2022
    On 15/06/2022 05:21, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 8:39:42 PM UTC-4, David Eather wrote:
    On 12/06/2022 4:12 am, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    Why do you expect that? They will probably tell you what you want to
    know although they might well quote a price that indicates rather
    clearly that they don't actually want your business.

    Dude, just use a low power 8 bit MCU. No appreciable difference in power
    consumption.

    Dude, that isn't the question.

    If you were likely to be one of their customers at the volumes they
    operate then you would already know how to get in touch with them and
    have done it. Equally they would likely already know about you if you
    were operating at mass market volumes they consider sufficient.

    You either have to knock on their door and convince them that you are
    looking at serious mass market volume and so worth them talking to you
    or simply do it some other way (8 bit MCU would be an obvious way).

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Jun 15 06:55:45 2022
    On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 12:18:34 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 15/06/2022 05:21, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 8:39:42 PM UTC-4, David Eather wrote:
    On 12/06/2022 4:12 am, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.
    Why do you expect that? They will probably tell you what you want to
    know although they might well quote a price that indicates rather
    clearly that they don't actually want your business.
    Dude, just use a low power 8 bit MCU. No appreciable difference in power >> consumption.

    Dude, that isn't the question.
    If you were likely to be one of their customers at the volumes they
    operate then you would already know how to get in touch with them and
    have done it. Equally they would likely already know about you if you
    were operating at mass market volumes they consider sufficient.

    You either have to knock on their door and convince them that you are looking at serious mass market volume and so worth them talking to you
    or simply do it some other way (8 bit MCU would be an obvious way).

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    OP is obviuously new to this market/design segment. His customer is buying 1M masked-rom chip for unknown 4-bit mcu from unknown supplier. They probably already have the market data, but none of the design data, and hiring a new designer for the job.
    There are two possibilities:

    1. Previous designer died with covid and took everything to his grave.

    2. New hot shot manager trying to upend existing department without touching any of the existing supply chain.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From three_jeeps@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 22 07:23:01 2022
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    FWIW, TI recently announced a BT LE Arm Cortex-M0+ 32 bit CPU with price as low as $0.79 USD, CC2340. Standby current of < 700nA, 48MHz, and quite a number of peripherals and I/O. I'd imagine with an Arm architecture, it would go a long way to
    future-proofing the product.
    J

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 22 17:10:33 2022
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:23:08 AM UTC-4, three_jeeps wrote:
    On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 2:12:10 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    So anyone have knowledge of truly low cost/low power MCU devices? I found this company.

    http://upt-ic.com/en/index.aspx

    They have a line of 4-bit MCUs. Can't find a way to get prices unless I call them. I expect that would not be very effective.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    FWIW, TI recently announced a BT LE Arm Cortex-M0+ 32 bit CPU with price as low as $0.79 USD, CC2340. Standby current of < 700nA, 48MHz, and quite a number of peripherals and I/O. I'd imagine with an Arm architecture, it would go a long way to future-
    proofing the product.
    J

    The details of the CPU part of an MCU is actually the least important part of a chip when considering "future proofing". It's much harder to deal with the peripherals and other I/O when changing chips, as they are very brand dependent.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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