• The reality of driving an EV cross-country

    From Flyguy@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 7 22:28:21 2022
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than half
    of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    The PlugShare app—a user-generated map of public chargers—showed thousands of charging options between New Orleans and Chicago. But most were classified as Level 2, requiring around 8 hours for a full charge.

    While we’d be fine overnight, we required fast chargers during the days. ChargePoint Holdings Inc., which manufactures and maintains many fast-charging stations, promises an 80% charge in 20 to 30 minutes. Longer than stopping for gas—but good for a
    bite or bathroom break.

    The government is spending $5 billion to build a nationwide network of fast chargers, which means thousands more should soon dot major highways. For now, though, fast chargers tend to be located in parking lots of suburban shopping malls, or tethered to
    gas stations or car dealerships.

    Cost varies widely based on factors such as local electricity prices and charger brands. Charging at home tends to be cheaper than using a public charger, though some businesses offer free juice as a perk to existing customers or to entice drivers to
    come inside while they wait.

    Over four days, we spent $175 on charging. We estimated the equivalent cost for gas in a Kia Forte would have been $275, based on the AAA average national gas price for May 19. That $100 savings cost us many hours in waiting time.

    But that’s not the whole story.

    New Orleans, our starting point, has exactly zero fast chargers, according to PlugShare. As we set out, one of the closest is at a Harley-Davidson dealership in Slidell, La., about 40 minutes away. So we use our Monday-morning breakfast stop to top off
    there on the way out of town.

    But when we tick down 15% over 35 miles? Disconcerting. And the estimated charging time after plugging in? Even more so. This “quick charge” should take 5 minutes, based on our calculations. So why does the dashboard tell us it will take an hour?

    “Maybe it’s just warming up,” I say to Mack. “Maybe it’s broken?” she says.

    Over Egg McMuffins at McDonald’s, we check Google. Chargers slow down when the battery is 80% full, the State of Charge YouTube channel tells us.

    Worried about time, we decide to unplug once we return to the car, despite gaining a measly 13% in 40 minutes.

    Our real troubles begin when we can’t find the wall-mounted charger at the Kia dealership in Meridian, Miss., the state’s seventh-largest city and hometown of country-music legend Jimmie Rodgers.

    When I ask a mechanic working on an SUV a few feet away for help, he says he doesn’t know anything about the machine and points us inside. At the front desk, the receptionist asks if we’ve checked with a technician and sends us back outside.

    Not many people use the charger, the mechanic tells us when we return. We soon see why. Once up and running, our dashboard tells us a full charge, from 18% to 100%, will take 3-plus hours.

    It turns out not all “fast chargers” live up to the name. The biggest variable, according to State of Charge, is how many kilowatts a unit can churn out in an hour. To be considered “fast,” a charger must be capable of about 24 kW. The fastest
    chargers can pump out up to 350. Our charger in Meridian claims to meet that standard, but it has trouble cracking 20.

    “Even among DC fast chargers, there are different level chargers with different charging speeds,” a ChargePoint spokeswoman says.

    Worse, it is a 30-minute walk to downtown restaurants. We set off on foot, passing warehouses with shattered windows and an overgrown lot filled with rusted fuel pumps and gas-station signs. Clambering over a flatcar of a stalled freight train, we half-
    wish we could hop a boxcar to Chicago.

    By the time we reach our next station, at a Mercedes-Benz dealership outside Birmingham, Ala., we’ve already missed our dinner reservations in Nashville—still 200 miles away.

    Here, at least, the estimated charging time is only an hour—and we get to make use of two automatic massage chairs while we wait.

    Salesman Kurt Long tells us the dealership upgraded its chargers to 54-kW models a few weeks earlier when the 2022 Mercedes EQS-Class arrived.

    “Everyone’s concern is how far can the cars go on a charge,” he says. He adds that he would trade in his car for an EV tomorrow if he could afford the $102,000 price tag. “Just because it would be convenient for me because I work here,” he says.
    “Otherwise, I don’t know if I would just yet.”

    A customer who has just bought a new BMW says he’d consider an EV one day—if the price drops.

    “You remember when the microwave came out? Or DVD players?” says Dennis Boatwright, a 58-year-old tree surgeon. “When you first get them the prices were real high, but the older they are, the cheaper they get.”

    When we tell him about our trip, he asks if we’ll make it to Chicago.

    “We’re hoping,” I say.

    “I’m hoping, too,” he says.

    After the Birmingham suburbs, our journey takes us along nightmarish, dark mountain roads. We stop for snacks at a gas station featuring a giant chicken in a chef’s costume. We lean heavily on cruise control, which helps conserve battery life by
    reducing inadvertent acceleration and deceleration. We are beat when we finally stumble into our Nashville hotel at 12:30 a.m.

    To get back on schedule, we are up and out early, amid pouring rain, writing the previous day off as a warm-up, an electric-car hazing.

    For the most part, we are right. Thanks to vastly better charging infrastructure on this leg, all our stops last less than an hour.

    It isn’t all smooth sailing, though. At one point we find ourselves wandering through a Kroger, sopping wet, in search of coffee after wrestling with a particularly finicky charger in the rain. By this point, not once have we managed to back in close
    enough to reach the pump, or gotten the stiff cord hooked around the right way on the first try.

    In the parking lot of a Clarksville, Ind., Walmart, we barely have time for lunch, as the Electrify America charging station fills up our battery in about 25 minutes, as advertised.

    The woman charging next to us describes a harrowing recent trip in her Volkswagen ID.4. Deborah Carrico, 65, had to be towed twice while driving between her Louisville, Ky., apartment and Boulder, Colo., where her daughter was getting married.

    “My daughter was like, ‘You’ve lost it mom; just fly,’ ” the retired hairdresser says. She says she felt safer in a car during the pandemic—but also vulnerable when waiting at remote charging stations alone late at night. “But if someone is
    going to get me, they’re going to have to really fight me,” she says, wielding her key between her fingers like a weapon.

    While she loves embracing the future, she says, her family has been giving her so much pushback that she is considering trading the car in and going back to gas.

    At another Walmart, in Indianapolis, we meet Bill Stempowski as he waits for his Ford Mustang Mach-E to charge. A medical-equipment operations manager, 45, he drives all over the Midwest from his home in LaGrange, Ohio, for work.

    In nine months, he says, he’s put 30,000 miles on the car and figures he’s saved thousands on gas. “I smile as the gas-sign prices tick up,” he says. That day, his charge comes to about $15, similar to what we are paying to fill up.

    We pull into Chicago at 9 p.m., having made the planned 7½-hour trip in 12 hours. Not bad, we agree.

    ‘What if we just risk it?’
    Leaving Chicago after a full night of sleep, I tell Mack I might write only about the journey’s first half. “The rest will just be the same,” I predict, as thunder claps ominously overhead.

    “Don’t say that!” she says. “We’re at the mercy of this goddamn spaceship.” She still hasn’t mastered the lie-flat door handles after three days.

    As intense wind and rain whip around us, the car cautions, “Conditions have not been met” for its cruise-control system. Soon the battery starts bleeding life. What began as a 100-mile cushion between Chicago and our planned first stop in Effingham,
    Ill., has fallen to 30.

    “If it gets down to 10, we’re stopping at a Level 2,” Mack says as she frantically searches PlugShare.

    We feel defeated pulling into a Nissan Mazda dealership in Mattoon, Ill. “How long could it possibly take to charge the 30 miles we need to make it to the next fast station?” I wonder.

    Three hours. It takes 3 hours.

    I begin to lose my mind as I set out in search of gas-station doughnuts, the wind driving sheets of rain into my face.

    Seated atop a pyramid of Smirnoff Ice 12-packs, Little Debbie powdered sugar sprinkled down the pajama shirt I haven’t removed in three days, I phone Mack. “What if we just risk it?” I say. “Maybe we’ll make it there on electrical fumes.”

    “That’s a terrible idea!” she says, before asking me to bring back a bag of nuts.

    ‘Charge, Urgently!’
    Back on the road, we can’t even make it 200 miles on a full charge en route to Miner, Mo. Clearly, tornado warnings and electric cars don’t mix. The car’s highway range actually seems worse than its range in cities.

    Indeed, highway driving doesn’t benefit as much from the car’s regenerative-braking technology—which uses energy generated in slowing down to help a car recharge its battery—Kia spokesman James Bell tells me later. He suspects our car is the less-
    expensive EV6 model with a range not of 310 miles, as listed on Turo, but 250. He says he can’t be sure what model we were driving without physically inspecting the car.

    “As we have all learned over many years of experience with internal combustion engine vehicles, factors such as average highway speed, altitude changes, and total cargo weight can all impact range, whether derived from a tank of gasoline or a fully
    charged battery,” he says.

    To save power, we turn off the car’s cooling system and the radio, unplug our phones and lower the windshield wipers to the lowest possible setting while still being able to see. Three miles away from the station, we have one mile of estimated range.

    “Charge, Urgently!” the dashboard urges. “We know!” we respond.

    At zero miles, we fly screeching into a gas-station parking lot. A trash can goes flying and lands with a clatter to greet us. Dinner is beef jerky, our plans to dine at a kitschy beauty shop-turned-restaurant in Memphis long gone.

    Then we start to argue. Mack reminds me she needs to be back in time for her shift the next day. There’s no way we’ll make it, I tell her.

    “Should we just drive straight through to New Orleans?” I finally ask desperately, even as I realize I’ve failed to map out the last 400 miles of our route.

    To scout our options, Mack calls a McDonald’s in Winona, Miss., that is home to one of the few fast chargers along our route back to New Orleans. PlugShare tells us the last user has reported the charger broken. An employee who picks up reasonably
    responds that given the rain, she’ll pass on checking to see if an error message is flashing across the charger’s screen.

    Home, sweet $4-a-gallon home
    At our hotel, we decide 4 hours of sleep is better than none, and set our alarms for 4 a.m.

    We figure 11 hours should be plenty for a trip that would normally take half as long. That is, if absolutely everything goes right.

    Miraculously, it does. At the McDonald’s where we stop for our first charge at 6 a.m., the charger zaps to life. The body shop and parts department director at Rogers-Dabbs Chevrolet in Brandon, Miss., comes out to unlock the charger for us with a
    keycard at 10 a.m. We’re thrilled we waited for business hours, realizing we can only charge while he’s there.

    We pull into New Orleans 30 minutes before Mack’s shift starts—exhausted and grumpy.

    The following week, I fill up my Jetta at a local Shell station. Gas is up to $4.08 a gallon.

    I inhale deeply. Fumes never smelled so sweet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Wed Jun 8 05:33:30 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:28:25 AM UTC+2, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1)

    Flyguy is clearly plugged into a network of incompetent idiots. Why he should think that we'd be interested in the details of their incompetence escapes me. Then again I can't imagine what motivates him to post all his other moronic misapprehensions here
    either.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Wed Jun 8 14:57:38 2022
    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a a@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Wed Jun 8 06:05:29 2022
    On Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 14:57:48 UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.
    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not counting that you could charge during sleep)
    EV is fake for not smart guys

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Wed Jun 8 06:37:07 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 8:57:48 AM UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.
    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not counting that you could charge during sleep)

    In the world of BEVs, Tesla has only two features that stand out from the crowd. One is the vast network of Superchargers, with convenient access to rapid charging being essential. The other is the large map display which will show the location of all
    such chargers.

    Well, I guess it's actually three things, as the third is the fact that you don't really need to know anything about the first two because the Tesla trip planner will point you to appropriate charging along your path, as required by your state of charge.


    I haven't studied the other BEVs, but I don't know of any that have this level of charging support in the car.

    I recently had an opportunity to utilize this. My driving the last two days required some optimized charging combined with dining (mostly because I was hungry and it was a good point to eat). The last charge was at a 250 kW charger after the car had
    been driven for two hours. The charge rate reached 174 kW or in my car, around 522 mph! I barely had time to eat at a Chinese buffet (really not worth the money no matter how cheap). All the other restaurants in that location are gone, but not
    forgotten by all the durn map software. I had other choices of where to charge, but stopped there for the food choices. Too bad it didn't work out. The buffet had steamed shrimp which they somehow managed to make tasteless. How do you do that??? In
    fact, that was the theme. All the food was in harmony with the glass of water I was served, totally without taste!

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to klauskvik@hotmail.com on Wed Jun 8 07:07:42 2022
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:57:38 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    Thats what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    Id made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 Id rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldnt be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than half
    of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporters four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleepand less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Ohand we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7-hours each. Wed need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    Or maybe sleeping in the car (or a tent) solves the problem.



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Jun 8 10:16:41 2022
    On 6/8/2022 10:07 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:57:38 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    Or maybe sleeping in the car (or a tent) solves the problem.


    Oh shit, everybody's gonna die. I've owned an EV for five years all it
    did was pay for itself in fuel savings. The worst!

    Anyway. if you need to get your friend back in under four days for their restaurant shift it's probably the wrong vehicle to use for
    cross-country trips at this time, though. But the question "Who gives a
    rat's ass" comes to mind. It's usually best to use the correct tool for
    a job; I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who use screwdrivers to
    pound nails.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Wed Jun 8 10:09:09 2022
    On 6/8/2022 1:28 AM, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    Lol

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    But why did they assume any such thing? They sound like fuckin' idiot or
    are writing for that audience.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    They invented jet aircraft a long time ago. With they money they saved
    on gas if they driven it all year they could've afforded to rent a gas
    car to do the trip if they'd wanted instead.

    It's such a fucking old-man-yells-at-cloud issue. Who gives a shit if
    retirees (or WSJ reporters paid to emulate them) have enough chargers
    out there for their regular thousand-mile road trips.

    Everyone else is too busy working for this and takes a plane if they
    need to go cross country. Like a normal person...

    The following week, I fill up my Jetta at a local Shell station. Gas is up to $4.08 a gallon.

    I inhale deeply. Fumes never smelled so sweet.

    Owning a car for how well it does something you almost never do with it
    and spending thousands extra for the _possibility_ is dumb. See e.g.
    Jeep Wrangler drivers who never take their pristine Jeep offroad - the
    task it was designed for.

    The car sucks at just about everything else but that and making you look
    like you drive a tough Jeep that _could_ be used for off-roading, it
    doesn't stop anyone from buying them.

    Nothing like buying a trail-truck then fretting if the paint gets
    scratched. /eyeroll

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to soar2morrow@yahoo.com on Wed Jun 8 07:35:54 2022
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Jun 8 07:36:23 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 10:07:58 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:57:38 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klau...@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take
    your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV
    worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 8 09:10:45 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 10:16:49 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:07 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:57:38 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klau...@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    That’s what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    I’d made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 I’d rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldn’t be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866—over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than
    half of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporter’s four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleep—and less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Oh—and we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7½-hours each. We’d need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles >> on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    Or maybe sleeping in the car (or a tent) solves the problem.

    Oh shit, everybody's gonna die. I've owned an EV for five years all it
    did was pay for itself in fuel savings. The worst!

    Anyway. if you need to get your friend back in under four days for their restaurant shift it's probably the wrong vehicle to use for
    cross-country trips at this time, though. But the question "Who gives a rat's ass" comes to mind. It's usually best to use the correct tool for
    a job; I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who use screwdrivers to pound nails.

    This article was just that, an article. It clearly is not well documented. It is full of self contradictions like "having made the planned 7½-hour trip in 12 hours". Even at 70 mph, 7.5 hours is only 525 miles. That should only require a single
    charge if placed optimally, but most likely two, shorter charges. So how does it take 4.5 hours to charge 525 miles of range?

    A hint is in the article previously. "a full charge, from 18% to 100%, will take 3-plus hours." It would appear this was done for the article. They deliberately picked a slow charger just to show that not all chargers are equal. Plugshare is about as
    close as a non-Tesla BEV driver will get to Tesla charging support. With Tesla they tell you the charger capability which is one of three... 75 kW Urban chargers (not so many around), 150 kW type II (older units) and 250 kW type III units which are all
    that is being installed now. Plugshare depends on users or owners entering info on the specific charging units, but many are done. Otherwise, there are lots of comments on each station and you can learn from that.

    Only someone like Larkin, or the various haters in this group would think this article is remotely realistic. With comments like, "Soon the battery starts bleeding life", it is clear drama was added because... it's an article. Taking 3 hours to charge
    30 miles is slow, even for a level 2 charger. Clearly, they didn't read the notes in Plugshare. In Mattoon, Ill, there are two other chargers than the one they used, both claiming at least 6 kW or 24 miles per hour. The reality is, they should have
    seen this coming early enough to charge in Champaign, about 50 miles earlier.

    Here is a comment that shows how poorly prepared they were, "The car’s highway range actually seems worse than its range in cities." Freakin' DUH!!! That's BEV 101 material. Maybe I need to set up a training class for new BEV owners. Then we can
    make it mandatory.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Jun 8 09:12:15 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Wed Jun 8 09:28:12 2022
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.

    But that becomes a hassle too, pickup and dropoff and often standing
    in lines. And if the rental agency isn't close to home, do you Uber
    too?

    OK, if you enjoy all that stuff. I don't think about my car much:
    5-minute gas stop every couple of weeks on the way to work, service at
    the dealer once a year.







    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 8 09:22:05 2022
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:16:41 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/8/2022 10:07 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:57:38 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 08/06/2022 07.28, Flyguy wrote:
    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.

    Thats what I told my friend Mack when I asked her to drive with me from New Orleans to Chicago and back in an electric car.

    Id made long road trips before, surviving popped tires, blown headlights and shredded wheel-well liners in my 2008 Volkswagen Jetta. I figured driving the brand-new Kia EV6 Id rented would be a piece of cake.

    If, that is, the public-charging infrastructure cooperated. We wouldnt be the first to test it. Sales of pure and hybrid plug-ins doubled in the U.S. last year to 656,866over 4% of the total market, according to database EV-volumes. More than half
    of car buyers say they want their next car to be an EV, according to recent Ernst & Young Global Ltd. data.

    BY THE NUMBERS
    Our reporters four-day, three-night EV road trip included many charging stops, little sleepand less junk food than you might expect

    Miles driven: 2,013
    Number of charges: 14
    Total charging cost: $175
    Hours spent waiting to charge: 18
    Hours of sleep: 16
    Calories of junk food consumed (estimated): 1,465
    Giant chicken statues passed: 1
    Ohand we aimed to make the 2,000-mile trip in just under four days so Mack could make her Thursday-afternoon shift as a restaurant server.

    Given our battery range of up to 310 miles, I plotted a meticulous route, splitting our days into four chunks of roughly 7-hours each. Wed need to charge once or twice each day and plug in near our hotel overnight.

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    Or maybe sleeping in the car (or a tent) solves the problem.


    Oh shit, everybody's gonna die. I've owned an EV for five years all it
    did was pay for itself in fuel savings. The worst!

    How much do you value your time, in dollars per hour? Did you factor
    that into the savings?

    One thing I see in some EV owners is seduction by FREE!, no matter
    what the actual cost and hassle. Lots of penny pinchers, people who
    will drive 50 miles RT to a free charger.

    And for some people, their EV is a hobby.





    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Jun 8 10:04:48 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:28:28 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.
    But that becomes a hassle too, pickup and dropoff and often standing
    in lines. And if the rental agency isn't close to home, do you Uber
    too?

    I drive my EV to the rental agency. I don't have to rent close to home.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Wed Jun 8 14:27:29 2022
    On 6/8/2022 12:12 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.


    Chicago to New Orleans is a particularly pathological route that goes
    through some of the poorest areas of the USA.

    "The PlugShare app—a user-generated map of public chargers—showed
    thousands of charging options between New Orleans and Chicago. But most
    were classified as Level 2, requiring around 8 hours for a full charge."

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Wed Jun 8 11:28:22 2022
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:04:48 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:28:28 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.
    But that becomes a hassle too, pickup and dropoff and often standing
    in lines. And if the rental agency isn't close to home, do you Uber
    too?

    I drive my EV to the rental agency. I don't have to rent close to home.

    Can you leave it there?

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 8 11:54:56 2022
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:27:29 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/8/2022 12:12 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.


    Chicago to New Orleans is a particularly pathological route that goes
    through some of the poorest areas of the USA.

    Driving near poor people is pathological? Do you study income
    demographics before going for a drive?

    There are some really nice people in Mississippi and Louisiana.

    I'd rather be stranded on the side of the roads in MS or LA than in,
    say, New Jersey.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 8 14:17:26 2022
    On 6/8/2022 12:10 PM, Ricky wrote:

    Oh shit, everybody's gonna die. I've owned an EV for five years all it
    did was pay for itself in fuel savings. The worst!

    Anyway. if you need to get your friend back in under four days for their
    restaurant shift it's probably the wrong vehicle to use for
    cross-country trips at this time, though. But the question "Who gives a
    rat's ass" comes to mind. It's usually best to use the correct tool for
    a job; I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who use screwdrivers to
    pound nails.

    This article was just that, an article. It clearly is not well documented. It is full of self contradictions like "having made the planned 7½-hour trip in 12 hours". Even at 70 mph, 7.5 hours is only 525 miles. That should only require a single
    charge if placed optimally, but most likely two, shorter charges. So how does it take 4.5 hours to charge 525 miles of range?

    A hint is in the article previously. "a full charge, from 18% to 100%, will take 3-plus hours." It would appear this was done for the article. They deliberately picked a slow charger just to show that not all chargers are equal. Plugshare is about
    as close as a non-Tesla BEV driver will get to Tesla charging support. With Tesla they tell you the charger capability which is one of three... 75 kW Urban chargers (not so many around), 150 kW type II (older units) and 250 kW type III units which are
    all that is being installed now. Plugshare depends on users or owners entering info on the specific charging units, but many are done. Otherwise, there are lots of comments on each station and you can learn from that.

    Only someone like Larkin, or the various haters in this group would think this article is remotely realistic. With comments like, "Soon the battery starts bleeding life", it is clear drama was added because... it's an article. Taking 3 hours to
    charge 30 miles is slow, even for a level 2 charger. Clearly, they didn't read the notes in Plugshare. In Mattoon, Ill, there are two other chargers than the one they used, both claiming at least 6 kW or 24 miles per hour. The reality is, they should
    have seen this coming early enough to charge in Champaign, about 50 miles earlier.

    Here is a comment that shows how poorly prepared they were, "The car’s highway range actually seems worse than its range in cities." Freakin' DUH!!! That's BEV 101 material. Maybe I need to set up a training class for new BEV owners. Then we can
    make it mandatory.


    Driving across central US states massively hostile to investing any
    money in EV infrastructure, or infrastructure in general, or having
    their elected representatives do anything but shout about the latest
    conspiracy theory & cash checks, and then complain like "Well shit sure
    sucks out here! Doing anything other than business-as-usual sure is
    hard." Uh, yeah. No shit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Wed Jun 8 12:02:23 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:28:35 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:04:48 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 9:28:28 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.
    But that becomes a hassle too, pickup and dropoff and often standing
    in lines. And if the rental agency isn't close to home, do you Uber
    too?

    I drive my EV to the rental agency. I don't have to rent close to home.
    Can you leave it there?

    Some have parking for customers. Others, airport for example, have parking near-by. Airports usually have the best rental rate, i guest parking fees are expected.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Del Rosso@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 8 15:05:35 2022
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?


    --
    Defund the Thought Police

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Tom Del Rosso on Wed Jun 8 16:09:37 2022
    On 6/8/2022 3:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the
    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?


    What's your ballpark on how much extra capacity will be required

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 8 20:39:59 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Flyguy wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60
    miles

    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your
    car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in
    the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and
    bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV
    charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people
    actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    Ricksy's arguments remind me of Linux Lunatics trying to sell Linux to
    ordinary users. Sounds good, but it's not reality.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Doe on Wed Jun 8 16:45:00 2022
    On 6/8/2022 4:39 PM, John Doe wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Flyguy wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60
    miles

    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your
    car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That
    would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in
    the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to the Supercharger and
    bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV
    charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger,
    designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people
    actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems that keep
    Larkin awake all night.

    Ricksy's arguments remind me of Linux Lunatics trying to sell Linux to ordinary users. Sounds good, but it's not reality.

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 8 16:55:16 2022
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.


    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Wed Jun 8 16:18:57 2022
    On 6/8/2022 2:54 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:27:29 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/8/2022 12:12 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 22:28:21 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
    <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV (https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day-road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654268401?page=1):

    I thought it would be fun.
    This is a good idea:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/06/08/kennedy-price-of-gas-is-so-high-that-it-would-be-cheaper-to-buy-cocaine-and-just-run-everywhere/

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/business/electric-vehicle-save-money/index.html

    EVs make sense for short distance trips. Rent ICEs for long distance.


    Chicago to New Orleans is a particularly pathological route that goes
    through some of the poorest areas of the USA.

    Driving near poor people is pathological? Do you study income
    demographics before going for a drive?

    I was just bitching at Rickety in the other thread about blame-shifting
    onto the consumer. If someone can't afford to pay the silly price most
    EVs cost right now (and Tesla's prices are particularly silly) that's
    the way it is.

    Climate change is _not_ the fault of any particular individual who can't
    afford the latest & greatest, and the left, if that's what he considers himself, does itself no favors by putting the onus on the consumer alone.

    As meanwhile Visa put a gay pride flag on their Facebook icon for the
    USA and not in the Middle East; they green wash and pink wash and all
    the wash everything, they'd love you to go into debt for a new electric
    car today, fuck them. I got a particular good offer on my purchase a
    number of years back, I would've been silly not to move on it at the
    time. The "deals" aren't so good anymore.

    There are some really nice people in Mississippi and Louisiana.

    Of course. But the article isn't about them just some fuckin' grossly
    overpaid journalists from the WSJ who should probably know enough those
    areas aren't going to have the latest in charging tech available on
    every corner, there's not a high demand for it.

    It's on just about every corner around here already but the Boston/Providence/NYC metropolitan axis isn't Mississippi.

    I'd rather be stranded on the side of the roads in MS or LA than in,
    say, New Jersey.

    Even MS and LA have cell phone service and AAA I expect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 8 21:17:23 2022
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    John Doe wrote:
    Ricky wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Flyguy wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day >>>>>> -road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-1165426 >>>>>> 8401?page=1

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60
    miles

    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging.
    (not counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you
    sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave
    your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
    minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
    cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to
    the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV
    charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
    charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that
    people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems
    that keep Larkin awake all night.

    Ricksy's arguments remind me of Linux Lunatics trying to sell Linux to
    ordinary users. Sounds good, but it's not reality.

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Similarly, I wouldn't buy an electric car for all the things a gas powered
    car is used for. It might be great for getting around town, if it doesn't
    blow up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Doe on Wed Jun 8 18:29:25 2022
    On 6/8/2022 5:17 PM, John Doe wrote:
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    John Doe wrote:
    Ricky wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Flyguy wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an EV

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-day >>>>>>> -road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-1165426 >>>>>>> 8401?page=1

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60
    miles

    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging.
    (not counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you
    sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave
    your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
    minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
    cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to
    the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV
    charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
    charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that >>>> people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome problems
    that keep Larkin awake all night.

    Ricksy's arguments remind me of Linux Lunatics trying to sell Linux to
    ordinary users. Sounds good, but it's not reality.

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Why, "mainstream PC users" don't do very much with a PC other than
    browse the Web, write emails, watch YouTube videos...distros like Ubuntu
    and Mint are fine for that stuff. It tends to just work with a very
    large amount of off-the-shelf hardware

    I can think of tasks it's not well-suited for like AV production,
    hardcore gaming, etc. largely due to lack of a big software ecosystem
    for those.

    That is to say if you're doing tasks that require diving into the
    command line on Mint or Ubuntu you're probably not a "mainstream PC user"

    Similarly, I wouldn't buy an electric car for all the things a gas powered car is used for. It might be great for getting around town, if it doesn't blow up.

    I've died like, five times driving mine. Pretty scary

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 8 20:41:49 2022
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles >>> on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >>> counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take
    your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV
    worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually had
    enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-dom on Thu Jun 9 06:57:47 2022
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 15:05:35 -0400) it happened "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote in <t7qruq$mk$1@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the
    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I think everything electric is a bad idea
    I was reading today here in the Netherlands new companies no longer
    can get connected to the 'trickety net as it is overloaded with
    chargers and other companies that now move to 'trickety for everything
    as it is cheaper than gas powered. (heating for example).

    When something happens NOTHING works anymore, no emergency services
    as those run on 'trickety too..

    Diversification is a word those green idiots have never heard of it seems.

    Last night an other power outage just past midnight for a few seconds here.
    Had to set my microwave clock and radio clock ..
    The gas powered central heating kettle went into reset mode
    and woke me up with beeping noises...
    We are sooooo dependent on 'trickety!
    Computers did keep running on the UPS...

    Still looking for a cheap RTG

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to always.look@message.header on Thu Jun 9 06:57:47 2022
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..



    Similarly, I wouldn't buy an electric car for all the things a gas powered >car is used for.

    I am personally waiting for the 'transporter', much simpler to beam down to some location.
    US has it of course, its a DOD secret.
    After scientists reported teleporting the first particles, any following publications
    were silenced ..

    It will be as common as smartphones once it leaks,



    It might be great for getting around town, if it doesn't
    blow up.

    Around town use a bike.
    Much greener.
    Many people also have electric bikes here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Jun 9 01:09:54 2022
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 3:01:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 15:05:35 -0400) it happened "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote in <t7qruq$mk$1...@dont-email.me>:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the
    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?
    I think everything electric is a bad idea
    I was reading today here in the Netherlands new companies no longer
    can get connected to the 'trickety net as it is overloaded with
    chargers and other companies that now move to 'trickety for everything
    as it is cheaper than gas powered. (heating for example).

    When something happens NOTHING works anymore, no emergency services
    as those run on 'trickety too..

    Diversification is a word those green idiots have never heard of it seems.

    Last night an other power outage just past midnight for a few seconds here. Had to set my microwave clock and radio clock ..
    The gas powered central heating kettle went into reset mode
    and woke me up with beeping noises...
    We are sooooo dependent on 'trickety!
    Computers did keep running on the UPS...

    Still looking for a cheap RTG

    I think it is funny that your world is falling apart, while everyone else's world is doing just fine for the most part. Larkin interprets concerns about the direction we are headed as a day to day fear of living. I guess that's the way he handles
    concerns.

    You, on the other hand, seem to live in a world of your own creation with everything going wrong. I guess it's good that you don't create the world the rest of us live in.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Tom Del Rosso on Thu Jun 9 01:36:31 2022
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the
    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Jun 9 10:02:46 2022
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles >>>>> on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >>>>> counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep? >>>>
    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take
    your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV
    worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?


    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned and I've owned a
    number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
    in the throttle body.

    Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
    when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
    the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
    But in actually designing anything excellent they're regularly hobbled
    by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Jun 9 10:05:05 2022
    On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
    by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jun 9 10:09:03 2022
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the
    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just
    stop subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really want
    to do the former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former
    biz starts coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Thu Jun 9 15:50:48 2022
    On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 01:09:54 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <e6d5f1eb-3078-4a5d-b32e-d60e41fed223n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 3:01:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 15:05:35 -0400) it happened "Tom Del Rosso" >>
    <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote in
    <t7qruq$mk$1...@dont-email.me>:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the

    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?
    I think everything electric is a bad idea
    I was reading today here in the Netherlands new companies no longer
    can get connected to the 'trickety net as it is overloaded with
    chargers and other companies that now move to 'trickety for everything
    as it is cheaper than gas powered. (heating for example).

    When something happens NOTHING works anymore, no emergency services
    as those run on 'trickety too..

    Diversification is a word those green idiots have never heard of it seems. >>

    Last night an other power outage just past midnight for a few seconds here.

    Had to set my microwave clock and radio clock ..
    The gas powered central heating kettle went into reset mode
    and woke me up with beeping noises...
    We are sooooo dependent on 'trickety!
    Computers did keep running on the UPS...

    Still looking for a cheap RTG

    I think it is funny that your world is falling apart, while everyone else's >world is doing just fine for the most part. Larkin interprets concerns about >the direction we are headed as a day to day fear of living. I guess that's >the way he handles concerns.

    You, on the other hand, seem to live in a world of your own creation with everything
    going wrong. I guess it's good that you don't create the world the
    rest of us live in.

    You should read your own senseless babble sometimes for fault finding in your brain.
    You drivel and attack any one opposing your 'lectric pet hobby.
    The world here where I live is functioning a lot better than where you hide out.
    :-)!!!!!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to user@example.net on Thu Jun 9 15:50:48 2022
    On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:05:05 -0400) it happened bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in <m6noK.10511$Vxw.1827@fx07.iad>:

    On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe >> <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
    by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.
    His drone may use it, his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it...
    lots of things use a version of Linux.
    My Linksys wireless access points use Linux, my Samsung TV uses Linux
    If he has a cable router chances are 90% it uses Linux.
    I did put Ubuntu as MS WIndows replacement on this now 10 years old Samsung special edition laptop in 2012
    Everything worked...
    Later I added a Slackware boot option, and then also a Debian one.
    I tried the new Ubuntu running from an USB stick :-)
    It gives you the choice of playing with it that way or install it.
    That USB stick can be put in any x86 based computer with sufficient memory.. Just bring your own OS.
    Amazing, started from that USB stick, put in my Huawei 4G USB stick and was online
    Automatic! Firefox browser..
    No scripts needed, only needed the PIN code for that stick.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Jun 9 19:38:45 2022
    On 2022-06-09 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:05:05 -0400) it happened bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in <m6noK.10511$Vxw.1827@fx07.iad>:

    On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe >>> <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called >>>>> Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell >>>> Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
    by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.
    His drone may use it, his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it... lots of things use a version of Linux.
    My Linksys wireless access points use Linux, my Samsung TV uses Linux
    If he has a cable router chances are 90% it uses Linux.
    I did put Ubuntu as MS WIndows replacement on this now 10 years old Samsung special edition laptop in 2012
    Everything worked...
    Later I added a Slackware boot option, and then also a Debian one.
    I tried the new Ubuntu running from an USB stick :-)
    It gives you the choice of playing with it that way or install it.
    That USB stick can be put in any x86 based computer with sufficient memory.. Just bring your own OS.
    Amazing, started from that USB stick, put in my Huawei 4G USB stick and was online
    Automatic! Firefox browser..
    No scripts needed, only needed the PIN code for that stick.

    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 9 10:52:40 2022
    torsdag den 9. juni 2022 kl. 19.38.54 UTC+2 skrev Jeroen Belleman:
    On 2022-06-09 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:05:05 -0400) it happened bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote in <m6noK.10511$Vxw....@fx07.iad>:

    On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe
    <alway...@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1...@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called >>>>> Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell >>>> Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
    by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.
    His drone may use it, his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it... lots of things use a version of Linux.
    My Linksys wireless access points use Linux, my Samsung TV uses Linux
    If he has a cable router chances are 90% it uses Linux.
    I did put Ubuntu as MS WIndows replacement on this now 10 years old Samsung special edition laptop in 2012
    Everything worked...
    Later I added a Slackware boot option, and then also a Debian one.
    I tried the new Ubuntu running from an USB stick :-)
    It gives you the choice of playing with it that way or install it.
    That USB stick can be put in any x86 based computer with sufficient memory..
    Just bring your own OS.
    Amazing, started from that USB stick, put in my Huawei 4G USB stick and was online
    Automatic! Firefox browser..
    No scripts needed, only needed the PIN code for that stick.
    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    lots of legacy code or developers stuck in windows?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 9 12:55:37 2022
    On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
    products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really want to do the former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.

    Most of the "subsidies" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

    How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
    Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer's parts department?
    Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
    one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the drivetrain? Plant?

    Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
    have in your vehicle's future?

    [Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
    the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

    Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that "po' foke" can afford?

    An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of "driving capacity" that
    he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
    the fuel. Can you buy a "cheaper" version of an EV that is only useful
    for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
    you do so, practically?

    E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
    at a time.

    But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling.
    And, don't have to resort to an "extended range" version of the vehicle
    to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
    of "trim level"/price point.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu Jun 9 17:01:05 2022
    On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Why "bad"? What *can't* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
    Windows platform?

    It's the same "make or buy" decision as with any component/IP in your
    product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

    You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can't
    ("value" can take the form of reduced cost).

    Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
    "component" -- cuz there's no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
    it fails to perform as expected. "Linux, Inc."?

    Folks who roll their own OS's either have trivial needs *or*
    exotic needs that can't (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
    Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 00:27:47 2022
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    John Doe wrote:
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    John Doe wrote:
    Ricky wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
    Flyguy wrote:

    This is an article about an actual cross-country road trip in an >>>>>>>> EV

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-an-electric-car-for-a-four-d >>>>>>>> ay
    -road-trip-i-spent-more-time-charging-it-than-i-did-sleeping-11654 >>>>>>>> 26 8401?page=1

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 >>>>>>> miles

    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. >>>>>>> (not counting that you could charge during sleep)

    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you
    sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave
    your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
    minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
    cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car to >>>>> the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV >>>>> charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
    charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing
    that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome
    problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    Ricksy's arguments remind me of Linux Lunatics trying to sell Linux
    to ordinary users. Sounds good, but it's not reality.

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Why, "mainstream PC users" don't do very much with a PC other than
    browse the Web, write emails, watch YouTube videos...

    I've always hung out with real PC users. Those who push the envelope at
    least from time to time. I consider them mainstream PC users.

    distros like Ubuntu and Mint are fine for that stuff. It tends to just
    work with a very large amount of off-the-shelf hardware

    No, it doesn't.

    I can think of tasks it's not well-suited for like AV production,
    hardcore gaming, etc. largely due to lack of a big software ecosystem
    for those.

    It's not just big applications and hardcore gaming. It's the fact that PC
    users need the OS to support ANY applications or games they feel like
    running.

    A lot of the stuff I run on my PC couldn't run at all under Linux. And
    anything that runs under "wine" or whatever you call it isn't a valid
    reason. Nobody wants to run their applications SLOWER than they run on
    Windows.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Jun 10 00:38:15 2022
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    John Doe wrote:
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.

    I've had a clue ever since decades ago when I observed two guys going back-and-forth about it. One of them said "Linux is the Holy Grail of
    operating systems". He was right, to this day.

    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM
    computer (Raspberry). It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the
    exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    Definitely not anybody who wants to do a lot of stuff with their PC.

    The poster knows little about PC use...

    Of course it must be hardware compatible, but hardware is determined by software. Software is determined by users. Software is the reason real
    people use a computer. I am a PC enthusiast, but I acknowledge love for an operating system has nothing to do with real world users. Real world users
    care about APPLICATIONS, not about hardware or the operating system.

    I run stuff on my Windows PC, for example speech recognition and speech activated scripting, the poster cannot run on its Linux PC.

    Linux is a server operating system. Always has been, always will be
    (except for smartphones).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 00:41:30 2022
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
    by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    The problem is applications. If I could do everything on a Linux PC that I
    can do on a Windows PC, that would be great. But that's not the case.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Jun 10 00:46:52 2022
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it. His drone may use it,
    his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it... lots of things use a version of Linux.

    Sure. I'm not a zealot like some people are. I'm not saying Linux should magically become a mainstream operating system instead of being a server
    and smartphone operating system. I have no problem using my Android
    smartphone, except for the fact Google's Linux implementation too often
    tries to force me into stuff Google wants me to do and not stuff I want to
    do. Sort of like Google search.

    The problem with Linux has nothing to do with virtue.

    I prefer open source software, but that's not an option for mainstream PC users. It's by far not an option for a PC user who pushes the envelope.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Jun 10 00:54:45 2022
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    The vast majority of *paying* PC users use Windows. Therefore, software is developed for Windows. That attracts more users. It's a feedback loop. All
    that stuff was detailed in the big Microsoft antitrust trial pre-2000.

    Software developers aren't developing software for Linux users because those users don't PAY for software, they pirate it. They can't have it both ways. They don't pay for it, so they don't influence it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to John Doe on Thu Jun 9 18:15:49 2022
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 5:38:22 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:

    Linux is a server operating system. Always has been, always will be
    (except for smartphones).

    Well, no; it's a server except for when it's a client... it is interoperable with a per-unit install cost that isn't at the whim of Microsoft, Apple,
    IBM...

    It also has a market niche where one wants a secure OS, with examinable source.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to John Doe on Fri Jun 10 01:28:49 2022
    John Doe wrote:

    But of course I didn't say "Linux runs only on servers".

    allintext:"a server operating system" (on YouTube or Google search)

    On Google...

    About 796,000 results

    That's a lot of results for a four word quote.

    Not quite as many as "to be or not to be" (17+ million) but I'm getting
    there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Fri Jun 10 01:21:59 2022
    But of course I didn't say "Linux runs only on servers".

    allintext:"a server operating system" (on YouTube or Google search)

    Maybe that will help this silly troll...



    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 5:38:22 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:

    Linux is a server operating system. Always has been, always will be
    (except for smartphones).

    Well, no; it's a server except for when it's a client... it is interoperable with a per-unit install cost that isn't at the whim of Microsoft, Apple, IBM...

    It also has a market niche where one wants a secure OS, with examinable source.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jun 9 21:05:18 2022
    On 06/09/2022 02:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the
    infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    And on even days you can buy 5 gallons of gas... Been there, done that,
    and lived through the inflation when Nixon's wage and price controls
    unraveled. Jimmy really should have stuck to peanuts rather than buying
    that pig in a poke.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 9 21:09:48 2022
    On 06/09/2022 08:02 AM, bitrex wrote:
    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    Actually I prefer the 50's or older. I go to car shows and see something
    like a meticulously restored Chevelle and wonder why bother.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Jun 9 21:02:52 2022
    On 06/09/2022 09:50 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.

    Many of out clients run Windows Server in VMs on high availability
    systems. What's spinning up all those VMs? RedHat and kvm.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 9 23:20:52 2022
    On 6/9/2022 11:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 08:02 AM, bitrex wrote:
    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    Actually I prefer the 50's or older. I go to car shows and see something
    like a meticulously restored Chevelle and wonder why bother.

    ye olde rocket 88:

    <https://youtu.be/VXrAbG92h0A?t=86>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 9 20:17:49 2022
    On 6/9/2022 8:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 02:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
    products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!

    And on even days you can buy 5 gallons of gas... Been there, done that, and lived through the inflation when Nixon's wage and price controls unraveled. Jimmy really should have stuck to peanuts rather than buying that pig in a poke.

    Yes. The point is arbitrary comparisons can be CREATED to "prove" any claim.

    If you want to look at the TRUE, total impact of a transportation methodology, then drag in ALL of the related externalities and put dollar figures on each. E.g., wait until the gas tax is replaced by a *mileage* tax payable annually
    at time of registration. And, the cost (including environmental impact) of mining materials essential to battery production, copper, etc. is factored
    in -- along with any wars concocted to secure those supplies. Costs to society/The Economy due to unaffordability of mobility tied to a particular technology, etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 9 20:56:02 2022
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >>>>> counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep? >>>>
    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV
    worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't >> resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!


    and I've owned a
    number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
    in the throttle body.

    Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
    when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
    the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
    But in actually designing anything excellent they're regularly hobbled
    by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.

    Well, it sure seems like they "want" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Jun 9 21:21:21 2022
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:07 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned
    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    and I've owned a
    number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
    in the throttle body.

    Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
    when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
    But in actually designing anything excellent they're regularly hobbled
    by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.
    Well, it sure seems like they "want" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    This was a fascinating study in human behavior; the strident true believers like SNIPPERMAN, ricky and Bitrex are in full denial mode that include such tried and true methods as blaming the victim, or ME for just posting the article which I didn't write.

    This, and other articles on the subject, have a common thread: the EV charging network is sporadic and is in disrepair. Planning cross country trips with an EV amount to a military exercise. EVs WILL NOT be accepted as a primary vehicle UNTIL these
    issues are fully resolved.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to always.look@message.header on Fri Jun 10 07:49:50 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 10 Jun 2022 00:38:15 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7u3pm$3pj$4@dont-email.me>:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    John Doe wrote:
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called
    Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell
    Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.

    I've had a clue ever since decades ago when I observed two guys going >back-and-forth about it. One of them said "Linux is the Holy Grail of >operating systems". He was right, to this day.

    well, maybe for some.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM
    computer (Raspberry). It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the
    exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    Definitely not anybody who wants to do a lot of stuff with their PC.

    You obviously never really used Linux.
    I have been writing Linux applications since 1998.
    One of the first ones was this Usenet newsreader and am still using it,
    see headers (if you can on your MSW computa).




    The poster knows little about PC use...

    I worked for a company that worked with IBM, designed ISA cards among other things
    and designed hardware and wrote code in x86 asm for many things that were used in industry.

    So I dare say I know a bit about PCs and the people who use those.

    Of course it must be hardware compatible, but hardware is determined by >software. Software is determined by users. Software is the reason real
    people use a computer. I am a PC enthusiast, but I acknowledge love for an >operating system has nothing to do with real world users. Real world users >care about APPLICATIONS, not about hardware or the operating system.

    Likely there are more Linux / Unix based application than for that MS system, mainly because of open source.
    If not you can often use something like wine (Linux windows emulator) to run MS windows stuff.
    Or just dual boot..


    I run stuff on my Windows PC, for example speech recognition and speech >activated scripting, the poster cannot run on its Linux PC.

    What a joke, my first speech recognition on Linux goes back about 20 years
    I used it to control my satellite receiver, saying 'show BBC' would show BBC, etc.
    There are MANY text to speech programs for Linux, some are not even bound by the OS but use google translate
    if there is a net connection, all open source,
    I have tested many of those and have some on my system.

    Here is a 2 line script that uses mplayer, google translate and a net connection for text to speech,
    you can modify the '=en' to='XX' for other languaages pronounciation..
    mplayer is present in most Linux distros.

    #!/bin/bash
    say() { local IFS=+;/usr/bin/mplayer -ao alsa -really-quiet -noconsolecontrols "http://translate.google.com/translate_tts?ie=UTF-8&client=tw-ob&q=$*&tl=en"; }
    say $*

    So you type
    gst2_en "Hello World"

    No need to even install anything...
    decent voice too.



    Linux is a server operating system. Always has been, always will be
    (except for smartphones).

    No way, Linux is simply a multitasking OS that was (before that Rathead clown messed up its simplicity with dbus shit) very simple.
    I wrote a multitasker myself long ago for Z80..
    Linux (or better Unix) is an internally consistent very good operating system. Maybe the old boys (or lifeforms or whatever is politically correct these days) will
    remember the days of DR DOS (Digital Research Disk Operating System) and Windows 3.1, I mean when Billy the Gates
    stated that internet was not really much...
    that old Win 3.1 could run on DR DOS!! I used it that way and had Trumpet winsock to connect to the internet!
    So basically ran on DOS, the GUI was separate
    In fear of competition (From Digital Research) Billy than integrated the underlying MS DOS into the GUI and a lot of crap mess it has ever been since.
    Linux I can still boot up to the command line and return to the command line with ALT F1 or ALT F2 and back to the X11 GUI with what was it ALT F7 or something
    That basic Linux is a cool thing.

    As to applications: Linux distros come with things like Open Office etc that do much of what many MS users use a PC for.
    And free at that

    Anyways MS is already dead, they still do not know it.

    Probably no use to try to educate those who do not want to learn
    "He who refuses to see is effectively blind"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Fri Jun 10 07:49:50 2022
    On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:38:45 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <t7tb76$nac$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

    On 2022-06-09 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:05:05 -0400) it happened bitrex
    <user@example.net> wrote in <m6noK.10511$Vxw.1827@fx07.iad>:

    On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe >>>> <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called >>>>>> Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell >>>>> Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place
    by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.
    His drone may use it, his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it...
    lots of things use a version of Linux.
    My Linksys wireless access points use Linux, my Samsung TV uses Linux
    If he has a cable router chances are 90% it uses Linux.
    I did put Ubuntu as MS WIndows replacement on this now 10 years old Samsung special edition laptop in 2012
    Everything worked...
    Later I added a Slackware boot option, and then also a Debian one.
    I tried the new Ubuntu running from an USB stick :-)
    It gives you the choice of playing with it that way or install it.
    That USB stick can be put in any x86 based computer with sufficient memory.. >> Just bring your own OS.
    Amazing, started from that USB stick, put in my Huawei 4G USB stick and was online
    Automatic! Firefox browser..
    No scripts needed, only needed the PIN code for that stick.

    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Most houses have windows.

    Linux is even used in space.

    The really weird thing is a bunch of Einstein parroting clowns shooting particles at each other
    with no practical result other than babble on a piece of paper.
    Job creation..
    Jan Panteltje once wrote:
    "If you cannot do it with those small particles on the desktop then you cannot do it with a machine the size of the universe."

    Whatever, after the stone age so many humming lifeworms did so many things... believed so many wrong theories, .. where will it go?
    WW3 may filter some crap out, or / and set us back a few thousand years or more What works will stay, if us lifeworms are part of what will stay?
    Universe is unfolding at least this bang . maybe many of those, some things look repetitive
    electrons orbiting.. planets orbiting, big bangs orbiting? Life everywhere,,, Poly Ticksians denying it..
    religious leaders afraid of it,
    Soon US back to grass huts and rain dances... ?
    Most humming population wiped out by climate changes?

    WTF do I care?
    Mars ? Go there?
    Look we need to beam up there, get on with it
    Or just pack our DNA and sent it on some Voyager type spacecraft in the hope it lands
    and then all that history will repeat itself...
    Or they are already here and I am one?
    ;-)




    Jeroen Belleman



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 10:26:16 2022
    On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Why "bad"? What *can't* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
    Windows platform?

    It's bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
    and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
    of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
    behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
    chore.

    If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
    security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.


    It's the same "make or buy" decision as with any component/IP in your
    product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

    You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can't
    ("value" can take the form of reduced cost).

    Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
    "component" -- cuz there's no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
    it fails to perform as expected. "Linux, Inc."?

    Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don't
    want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
    fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
    to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.


    Folks who roll their own OS's either have trivial needs *or*
    exotic needs that can't (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
    Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

    That's absurd.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Jun 10 02:02:46 2022
    On 6/10/2022 1:26 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Why "bad"? What *can't* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
    Windows platform?

    It's bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
    and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
    of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
    behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
    chore.

    If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
    security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.

    Why is it *exposed* to hackers? Do you leave the door to the
    building unlocked??

    Really? I guess the folks who hack cars, pacemakers,
    thermostats, babycams, etc. all must suspect Windows to reside
    at the heart of those devices! No, wait... likely a Linux
    variant! Or, something "obscure and proprietary". Ooops!

    It's the same "make or buy" decision as with any component/IP in your
    product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

    You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can't
    ("value" can take the form of reduced cost).

    Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
    "component" -- cuz there's no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
    it fails to perform as expected. "Linux, Inc."?

    Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don't
    want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
    fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
    to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.

    Who are you going to *CALL* when your Linux box shits the bed?

    "Hello, Linux community. We're a big company and are having
    problems with one of our Linux-based products; can one of you
    please help us as our PAYING customers are getting impatient
    with us?"

    Who is going to maintain a fork of THAT kernel? What
    are you going to do when some clever customer discovers he
    can root your *device* and tinker with its code -- passing
    his problems on to your support department (without mentioning
    that he's tampered with the binaries)?

    Folks who roll their own OS's either have trivial needs *or*
    exotic needs that can't (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
    Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

    That's absurd.

    Who do you have ON STAFF to maintain your Linux-based products?
    At what cost? Compare that to the licensing cost of a Windows
    (or any other COTS) OS.

    Do you have a printshop on-site to print your own manuals?
    Your own semi fab? Sheet metal & paint shops?

    Do you want to be in the OS business? Or, in the instrument
    business?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Jun 10 09:18:56 2022
    Jan Panteltje wrote:

    John Doe wrote:

    Of course it must be hardware compatible, but hardware is determined by
    software. Software is determined by users. Software is the reason real
    people use a computer. I am a PC enthusiast, but I acknowledge love for
    an operating system has nothing to do with real world users. Real world
    users care about APPLICATIONS, not about hardware or the operating
    system.

    If not you can often use something like wine (Linux windows emulator) to
    run MS windows stuff. Or just dual boot..

    Nobody wants to run programs SLOWER. Almost NOBODY wants to dual boot.

    I run stuff on my Windows PC, for example speech recognition and speech
    activated scripting, the poster cannot run on its Linux PC.

    What a joke,

    No, it's a fact.

    my first speech recognition on Linux goes back about 20 years

    Playing with it for a short while is nothing like using it. Lots of people
    play with speech recognition. Few end up using it.

    POINT TO A LINUX SPEECH RECOGNITION FORUM...

    There are none, because nobody does speech recognition on Linux.

    Maybe Google can provide to Linux the same service it provides for
    smartphones.

    But even if it did, the combination of dictation and voice activated
    scripting would be a bear when having to use two different programs. It's difficult enough configuring Windows to combine both, using the same
    Dragon NaturallySpeaking front end.

    I used it to control my satellite receiver, saying 'show BBC' would show
    BBC, etc.

    Command recognition is easy. Dictation is HARD.

    Big companies like IBM (ViaVoice) and Microsoft (WSR) have tried (and
    failed) to implement speech recognition. Nobody's paying anybody to do it
    on Linux so it's not happening.

    Everybody who wants to can have the speech recognition experience on their Android smartphones now. I wonder if Apple ever tried... The fact it's on Android is good stuff, but no doubt many people have great difficulty
    using it (after the wow effect wears off). Speak in phrases or whole
    sentences! The fewer the words, the more difficult it is to interpret
    (since were not talking about a few preprogrammed commands).

    But that smartphone implementation doesn't include voice activated
    scripting for which you need to mess with the smartphone's security crud
    (like jailbreaking). It wouldn't work anyway, because you would need to
    use two separate programs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 12:25:20 2022
    On 2022-06-10 11:02, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 1:26 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Why "bad"? What *can't* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
    Windows platform?

    It's bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
    and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
    of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
    behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
    chore.

    If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
    security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.

    Why is it *exposed* to hackers? Do you leave the door to the
    building unlocked??

    Really? I guess the folks who hack cars, pacemakers,
    thermostats, babycams, etc. all must suspect Windows to reside
    at the heart of those devices! No, wait... likely a Linux
    variant! Or, something "obscure and proprietary". Ooops!

    It's the same "make or buy" decision as with any component/IP in your
    product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

    You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can't
    ("value" can take the form of reduced cost).

    Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
    "component" -- cuz there's no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
    it fails to perform as expected. "Linux, Inc."?

    Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don't
    want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
    fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
    to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.

    Who are you going to *CALL* when your Linux box shits the bed?

    "Hello, Linux community. We're a big company and are having
    problems with one of our Linux-based products; can one of you
    please help us as our PAYING customers are getting impatient
    with us?"

    Who is going to maintain a fork of THAT kernel? What
    are you going to do when some clever customer discovers he
    can root your *device* and tinker with its code -- passing
    his problems on to your support department (without mentioning
    that he's tampered with the binaries)?

    Folks who roll their own OS's either have trivial needs *or*
    exotic needs that can't (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
    Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

    That's absurd.

    Who do you have ON STAFF to maintain your Linux-based products?
    At what cost? Compare that to the licensing cost of a Windows
    (or any other COTS) OS.

    Do you have a printshop on-site to print your own manuals?
    Your own semi fab? Sheet metal & paint shops?

    Do you want to be in the OS business? Or, in the instrument
    business?

    As it happens, in the place where I work, we *have* the support
    staff. There is a strengthening push away from Micro$oft products
    at the moment. That's fine by me. I switched to Linux a very
    long time ago.

    I won't discuss the point any further, knowing full well that
    I can't compete with your endurance regarding such matters.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 06:14:14 2022
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:55:57 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum >> products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really want to do the
    former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.
    Most of the "subsidies" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

    How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
    Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer's parts department?
    Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
    one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the drivetrain? Plant?

    Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
    have in your vehicle's future?

    [Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
    the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

    Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that "po' foke" can afford?

    An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of "driving capacity" that
    he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
    the fuel. Can you buy a "cheaper" version of an EV that is only useful
    for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
    you do so, practically?

    E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
    at a time.

    But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling. And, don't have to resort to an "extended range" version of the vehicle
    to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
    of "trim level"/price point.

    You can buy an older Leaf for $7k to $8k and restore it to 100mi for around $2k. Add optional 100mi with CCS for around $5k, perhaps with rental plan. I'll post my constructions and draw up a plan when ready.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to always.look@message.header on Fri Jun 10 13:27:05 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 10 Jun 2022 09:18:56 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe <always.look@message.header> wrote in <t7v2a0$ui7$1@dont-email.me>:

    Jan Panteltje wrote:

    John Doe wrote:

    Of course it must be hardware compatible, but hardware is determined by
    software. Software is determined by users. Software is the reason real
    people use a computer. I am a PC enthusiast, but I acknowledge love for
    an operating system has nothing to do with real world users. Real world
    users care about APPLICATIONS, not about hardware or the operating
    system.

    If not you can often use something like wine (Linux windows emulator) to
    run MS windows stuff. Or just dual boot..

    Nobody wants to run programs SLOWER. Almost NOBODY wants to dual boot.

    I run stuff on my Windows PC, for example speech recognition and speech
    activated scripting, the poster cannot run on its Linux PC.

    What a joke,

    No, it's a fact.

    my first speech recognition on Linux goes back about 20 years

    Playing with it for a short while is nothing like using it. Lots of people >play with speech recognition. Few end up using it.

    POINT TO A LINUX SPEECH RECOGNITION FORUM...

    There are none, because nobody does speech recognition on Linux.

    Maybe Google can provide to Linux the same service it provides for >smartphones.

    But even if it did, the combination of dictation and voice activated >scripting would be a bear when having to use two different programs. It's >difficult enough configuring Windows to combine both, using the same
    Dragon NaturallySpeaking front end.

    The power of Unix / Linux is pipes
    Its easy to combine programs if those are written to use pipes,
    I do it all the time.
    Combining stuff others wrote with stuff you wrote yourself gives a lot of possibilities.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Jun 10 09:48:31 2022
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles >>>>>>> on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >>>>>>> counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep? >>>>>>
    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV
    worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't >>>> resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!

    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/>

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ


    and I've owned a
    number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy
    Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
    in the throttle body.

    Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
    when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
    the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
    But in actually designing anything excellent they're regularly hobbled
    by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.

    Well, it sure seems like they "want" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Jun 10 06:50:06 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:53:28 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:38:45 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote in <t7tb76$nac$1...@gioia.aioe.org>:
    On 2022-06-09 17:50, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Thu, 9 Jun 2022 10:05:05 -0400) it happened bitrex
    <us...@example.net> wrote in <m6noK.10511$Vxw....@fx07.iad>:

    On 6/9/2022 2:57 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:17:23 -0000 (UTC)) it happened John Doe
    <alway...@message.header> wrote in <t7r3l2$jb2$1...@dont-email.me>:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    They made some Linux derivatives for "ordinary users" they're called >>>>>> Android and ChromeOS.

    Huh??? That has nothing to do with my comment. Nobody is trying to sell >>>>> Linux to smartphone users.

    You have no clue what Linux is it seems.


    Linux sucks for mainstream PC use.

    Oh boy..

    I just tried the latest Ubuntu on a x86 laptop and also on an ARM computer (Raspberry).
    It is so 'automatic' it just works with all the exotic hardware.

    Everybody can use it without knowing much about Linux..

    He's got it backwards, the world would be a nicer and more secure place >>> by far if mainstream users all used Linux. Only people who know what
    they're doing should be allowed to mess with Windows..

    Probably he uses Linux without even knowing it.
    His drone may use it, his TV may use it, his wireless stuff may use it... >> lots of things use a version of Linux.
    My Linksys wireless access points use Linux, my Samsung TV uses Linux
    If he has a cable router chances are 90% it uses Linux.
    I did put Ubuntu as MS WIndows replacement on this now 10 years old Samsung special edition laptop in 2012
    Everything worked...
    Later I added a Slackware boot option, and then also a Debian one.
    I tried the new Ubuntu running from an USB stick :-)
    It gives you the choice of playing with it that way or install it.
    That USB stick can be put in any x86 based computer with sufficient memory..
    Just bring your own OS.
    Amazing, started from that USB stick, put in my Huawei 4G USB stick and was online
    Automatic! Firefox browser..
    No scripts needed, only needed the PIN code for that stick.

    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?
    Most houses have windows.

    Linux is even used in space.

    The really weird thing is a bunch of Einstein parroting clowns shooting particles at each other
    with no practical result other than babble on a piece of paper.

    There is some irony in someone posting on the Internet about "babble on a piece of paper". The entire function of this group is babble! That includes most of what passes for "technical" discussion here, as well, certainly most of what you post.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Fri Jun 10 06:45:56 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 12:21:26 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:07 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them
    to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that
    actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter, that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early 20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned
    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    and I've owned a
    number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection in the throttle body.

    Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also. But in actually designing anything excellent they're regularly hobbled by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.
    Well, it sure seems like they "want" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    This was a fascinating study in human behavior; the strident true believers like SNIPPERMAN, ricky and Bitrex are in full denial mode that include such tried and true methods as blaming the victim, or ME for just posting the article which I didn't
    write.

    This, and other articles on the subject, have a common thread: the EV charging network is sporadic and is in disrepair. Planning cross country trips with an EV amount to a military exercise. EVs WILL NOT be accepted as a primary vehicle UNTIL these
    issues are fully resolved.

    *Four years ago*, I drove from near Washington, DC to Houston, TX in a brand new model X. I did not observe the "sporadic" and "disrepair" nature of the charging network. Since then, the network has grown several fold. I think the reports of the EV's
    death are greatly exaggerated.

    The fact that Tesla has raised the entry level price significantly, while the wait list gets longer, shows there no lack of demand for the vehicles. So obviously "EVs WILL NOT be accepted" is not an accurate description of the situation. But I suppose
    you meant, "EVs WILL NOT be accepted" by YOU. No one cares. No one is going to pry your vehicle from your cold, dead hands. You'll just have to drive 25 miles to get gasoline in 20 years. Or maybe you will make your own ethanol fuel from crops? Is
    that the sort of thing you like? Yes, I'm sure it is, looking out for the planet.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 06:56:18 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/>

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    What does WSJ have to do with this? I'm going by your experience. You've convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Fri Jun 10 06:58:29 2022
    On 6/10/2022 6:14 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:55:57 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge >>>>> them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum >>>> products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop >>> subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really want to do the
    former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts
    coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.
    Most of the "subsidies" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

    How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
    Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer's parts department?
    Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
    one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
    drivetrain? Plant?

    Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
    have in your vehicle's future?

    [Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
    the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

    Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that "po' foke" can afford?

    An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of "driving capacity" that
    he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
    the fuel. Can you buy a "cheaper" version of an EV that is only useful
    for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
    you do so, practically?

    E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
    at a time.

    But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling. >> And, don't have to resort to an "extended range" version of the vehicle
    to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
    of "trim level"/price point.

    You can buy an older Leaf for $7k to $8k and restore it to 100mi for around $2k. Add optional 100mi with CCS for around $5k, perhaps with rental plan. I'll post my constructions and draw up a plan when ready.

    So, close to $15K?

    You can *buy* an ICE vehicle for as little as a few hundred dollars.
    For $15K, you can get something that even *looks* nice.

    And, add "energy' to it for $5/gallon (presently).

    I've never known anyone to NEED to replace a gas tank!

    What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
    ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
    landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive "cheap" cars,
    likely because they can't afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Fri Jun 10 10:01:35 2022
    On 6/10/2022 12:21 AM, Flyguy wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 8:56:07 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >>>>>>>> counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep? >>>>>>>
    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't >>>>> resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned
    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    and I've owned a
    number of them over the years, starting with my hand-me-down 1990 Chevy
    Celebrity that had a pushrod mail truck engine + single point injection
    in the throttle body.

    Come a long way since then. I do think GM can produce excellent cars
    when they _want_ to and often have some of the best designers on tap in
    the business, they have money to throw around when they want to also.
    But in actually designing anything excellent they're regularly hobbled
    by an army of bean-counters and generalized corporate stupidity.
    Well, it sure seems like they "want" to design electric cars. So far, not so good.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    This was a fascinating study in human behavior; the strident true believers like SNIPPERMAN, ricky and Bitrex are in full denial mode that include such tried and true methods as blaming the victim, or ME for just posting the article which I didn't
    write.

    What a whiner. People who post OT posts should be grateful anyone
    chooses to reply and talk to them in the first place.

    This, and other articles on the subject, have a common thread: the EV charging network is sporadic and is in disrepair. Planning cross country trips with an EV amount to a military exercise. EVs WILL NOT be accepted as a primary vehicle UNTIL these
    issues are fully resolved.

    They've already been accepted by millions of people who don't care what
    the state of charging infrastructure in western Arkansas is, and don't
    care about long cross country trips through those parts of the country.

    I think Ricky can be an ass but he's right on one thing, despite prognostications like "they'll never this, they'll never that" on the
    part of guys like you, they keep selling.

    Proclaiming a product a failure that they can't keep in stock and has
    wait lists eventually just starts to look dumb

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Jun 10 07:06:27 2022
    On 6/10/2022 3:25 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-06-10 11:02, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 1:26 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-06-10 02:01, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 10:38 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    The weird thing is that high-performance electronic instrument
    makers use Windows. Look at LeCroy, Tektronix, Agilent, or whatever
    they call themselves now. Bad choices, all of them. Why?

    Why "bad"? What *can't* the kit do BECAUSE it runs on a
    Windows platform?

    It's bad because Windows is a system widely targeted by hackers,
    and which needs patches and upgrades to remain usable. Any
    of those may brick the primary purpose of the device, i.e.,
    behaving like an electronic instrument. It becomes a maintenance
    chore.

    If it runs something obscure and proprietary, even though its
    security may be lacking, it loses its interest to hackers.

    Why is it *exposed* to hackers? Do you leave the door to the
    building unlocked??

    Really? I guess the folks who hack cars, pacemakers,
    thermostats, babycams, etc. all must suspect Windows to reside
    at the heart of those devices! No, wait... likely a Linux
    variant! Or, something "obscure and proprietary". Ooops!

    It's the same "make or buy" decision as with any component/IP in your
    product (why not make your own cardboard shipping boxes?)

    You *make* when you can add value. You *buy* when you can't
    ("value" can take the form of reduced cost).

    Embrace a bit of FOSS and now you need to become expert in that
    "component" -- cuz there's no one you can CALL (or sue!) if
    it fails to perform as expected. "Linux, Inc."?

    Fair enough. You could outsource that aspect if you don't
    want to deal with. Besides, if a Windows-based instrument
    fails because of some Windows deficiency, who are you going
    to sue? Micro$oft? LMAO.

    Who are you going to *CALL* when your Linux box shits the bed?

    "Hello, Linux community. We're a big company and are having
    problems with one of our Linux-based products; can one of you
    please help us as our PAYING customers are getting impatient
    with us?"

    Who is going to maintain a fork of THAT kernel? What
    are you going to do when some clever customer discovers he
    can root your *device* and tinker with its code -- passing
    his problems on to your support department (without mentioning
    that he's tampered with the binaries)?

    Folks who roll their own OS's either have trivial needs *or*
    exotic needs that can't (economically) be met from COTS offerings.
    Building on Linux is, effectively, rolling your own OS.

    That's absurd.

    Who do you have ON STAFF to maintain your Linux-based products?
    At what cost? Compare that to the licensing cost of a Windows
    (or any other COTS) OS.

    Do you have a printshop on-site to print your own manuals?
    Your own semi fab? Sheet metal & paint shops?

    Do you want to be in the OS business? Or, in the instrument
    business?

    As it happens, in the place where I work, we *have* the support
    staff. There is a strengthening push away from Micro$oft products
    at the moment. That's fine by me. I switched to Linux a very
    long time ago.

    So, as I said, "now you need to become expert in that 'component'".

    We designed a bit of process control kit (a few hundred $K) for
    our market. The *control* system was done with entirely off-the-shelf components (PLCs and actuators/transducers) save for the actually
    "process" equipment.

    As the industry required complete documentation of the process
    and controls (wiring diagrams, ladder logic, etc.) it was easy
    for Customer X to clone the controls for their own use.

    OK, they've saved a few bucks for system #2.

    But, now they're stuck in the controls business. What costs
    did they have to assume in order to "save" those dollars?
    (they aren't buying even *hundreds* of these systems at
    a fraction of a megabuck, each).

    And, how likely were they to get good prices (from us)
    on the process equipment, going forward?

    I won't discuss the point any further, knowing full well that
    I can't compete with your endurance regarding such matters.

    You're entitled to your opinion. Obviously (by your admission),
    HP, Tek, etc. seem to share *my* opinion. As you were interested
    in "why", I thought I'd share *my* view as a hint as to how THEY
    are likely making their decisions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Jun 10 10:07:09 2022
    On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not >>>>>>>>> counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep? >>>>>>>>
    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to
    take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't >>>>>> resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that actually
    had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for >>>> the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/>

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    What does WSJ have to do with this? I'm going by your experience. You've convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.


    It's a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
    except it's quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
    well. Not sure what I "convinced" you of or why you're freaking out over
    that one thing.

    It cost 26 grand out the door when I got it, it's paid for, and my fuel
    and maintenance costs have been asymptotically zero, I like that about
    it quite a bit. It's an enjoyable car to drive for the price. It's not a $100,000 car, most cars aren't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 08:14:59 2022
    On 06/09/2022 09:20 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 08:02 AM, bitrex wrote:
    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    Actually I prefer the 50's or older. I go to car shows and see
    something like a meticulously restored Chevelle and wonder why bother.

    ye olde rocket 88:

    <https://youtu.be/VXrAbG92h0A?t=86>

    Ah, vacuum windshield wipers... My family had a '57 Chevy. The little
    dip was retained but cars were growing fins. It was downhill from
    around '53 or so. I think the '55 Chevy is overrated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 08:20:51 2022
    On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

    What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
    ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
    landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive "cheap" cars,
    likely because they can't afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

    Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don't think the
    pool cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama's Cash for Clunkers
    drove up the price of used cars but no problem; it was for the kids.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 08:23:40 2022
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average >>>>>>>> 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. >>>>>>>> (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you
    sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave >>>>>> your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
    minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
    cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car
    to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV >>>>>> charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
    charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing
    that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome
    problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not
    sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore,
    because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 >>>>>> tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I
    don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I
    liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a
    regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to
    move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for
    better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or
    was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards
    the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't
    saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had
    to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!

    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/>

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    You don't read car mags very often do you? Every car is the greatest
    thing since sliced bread. When advertising revenues pay the light bill
    you're not going to piss in anybody's Wheaties.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 07:33:14 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 6:58:52 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 6:14 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 12:55:57 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge >>>>> them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum >>>> products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other >>>> measures to control (limit) demand!


    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop
    subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really want to do the
    former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts >>> coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.
    Most of the "subsidies" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

    How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
    Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer's parts department?
    Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
    one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
    drivetrain? Plant?

    Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
    have in your vehicle's future?

    [Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
    the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

    Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that "po' foke" can afford?

    An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of "driving capacity" that
    he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
    the fuel. Can you buy a "cheaper" version of an EV that is only useful
    for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
    you do so, practically?

    E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
    at a time.

    But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling. >> And, don't have to resort to an "extended range" version of the vehicle
    to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
    of "trim level"/price point.

    You can buy an older Leaf for $7k to $8k and restore it to 100mi for around $2k. Add optional 100mi with CCS for around $5k, perhaps with rental plan. I'll post my constructions and draw up a plan when ready.
    So, close to $15K?

    More like $10k plus occasional rental of $10 to $20 per day.

    You can *buy* an ICE vehicle for as littleas a few hundred dollars.

    Not without hundreds or thousands of maintenance/repair.

    For $15K, you can get something that even *looks* nice.

    And, add "energy' to it for $5/gallon (presently).

    Local chargings are usually $0 to $2 /gal equivalent. It is only expensive for highway robbery, but only occasionally.

    I've never known anyone to NEED to replace a gas tank!

    What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
    ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
    landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive "cheap" cars,
    likely because they can't afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

    Older Leafs (Leaves?) remain very popular for this kind of people, as well as students. Most of them can live with 40 miles range.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 07:35:42 2022
    On 6/10/2022 7:20 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

    What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
    ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
    landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive "cheap" cars,
    likely because they can't afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

    Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don't think the pool cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama's Cash for Clunkers drove up the price of used cars but no problem; it was for the kids.

    I suspect many "middle class" households are similarly pressed when
    it comes to car payments. (The idea of buying a car "on time" is
    anathema to me).

    The fact that folks *can* patch up old vehicles and keep them
    driveable is what keeps them in the market. Here, most costs
    (registration, insurance) fall for older vehicles -- though
    maintenance costs can climb (but you likely "have a friend"
    who's similarly strapped for cash who has learned a bit about
    car repair).

    Japan charges a 10% surtax on older cars

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 07:45:18 2022
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    Every car is the greatest thing
    since sliced bread. When advertising revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's Wheaties.

    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition: "Best taco shop", "Best barber", "Best ...". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
    to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Best hamburger. Best CHEESEburger. Best french fries. Best ribs. Best steak. Best business on north side of street. Best business on SOUTH
    side of street. Best business with an awning out front. Best business with fewer than 5 parking spaces.

    [I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a "best"!]

    Of course, they post the results.

    And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward: "Voted 'Best' for three years running!"

    Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and results), they decided they could do it *twice* a year! (in case the best taco shop happened to change in the interim).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 10:41:06 2022
    On 6/9/2022 3:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum >>> products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just
    stop subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really
    want to do the former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the
    former biz starts coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while
    that is.

    Most of the "subsidies" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

    How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
    Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer's parts department?
    Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
    one that has failed in your EV?  What modifications can you make to the drivetrain?  Plant?

    Jeez, you think I go to the DEALER for regular service? I've been to the
    dealer like once in my plug-in's lifetime for warranty service on the
    shifter, it had a fault that affects several other GM vehicles. Probably
    80% of the car is built from the regular GM parts bin. I don't need any
    kind of special tech to do the brakes or rotate the tires or stuff like
    that.

    Actually I've never had the brakes done since I bought it, with
    regenerative braking they wear very slowly. At the last service they
    tell me it'll probably need them at 80k so probably good until winter.

    No you can't buy a 3rd party battery or motor for it at this time, and
    it's probably difficult to modify in general.

    Can you buy a 3rd party motor or transmission for a late-model Corvette?
    Is it easy to mod? Probably yes to the first question and no to the
    second, how many people in the US are there well-qualified to
    performance mod a C8 Corvette and produce anything nicer than they
    started with (beyond futzing with the ECU in software.) The modding
    market for late-model cars is so small as to be economically irrelevant.

    Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
    have in your vehicle's future?

    [Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
    the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

    Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that "po' foke" can afford?

    Ever? Ever is a long time, and used cars depreciate. Used cars in
    general are holding their value pretty well right now, but you can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well under 20k. If you're
    ok with going older and higher miles than that you can do better than that.

    Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high miles
    and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that's true for just
    about any used car affordable by the very low income, it's a crapshoot.
    I've been very low income when I was younger and know what it's like to
    gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will stay reliable
    enough to get to work in without breaking down soon, it ain't fun.


    An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of "driving capacity" that
    he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
    the fuel.  Can you buy a "cheaper" version of an EV that is only useful
    for 20 mile/day travel?  And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
    you do so, practically?

    E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average.  Rarely more than 20 miles
    at a time.

    Eh? The ICE buyer (assuming cost no object) can choose their stock fuel
    tank capacity up to about a factor of 2.5, a mid size car these days
    tends to have a fuel tank of about 15-18 gallons, a compact car maybe
    10-12, and it's difficult to find anything stock with a tank capacity
    over 30. Maybe on a few of the biggest trucks and SUVs/fuel thirsty
    high-end luxury cars like a Rolls Royce with an aux tank or something,
    don't know offhand.

    Don't know why meanwhile some hypothetical EV model should have to have
    a select able battery capacity that varies over a factor of 20

    But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling. And, don't have to resort to an "extended range" version of the vehicle
    to do so.  And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
    of "trim level"/price point.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 10:52:52 2022
    On 6/9/2022 11:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 02:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum
    products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    And on even days you can buy 5 gallons of gas... Been there, done that,
    and lived through the inflation when Nixon's wage and price controls unraveled. Jimmy really should have stuck to peanuts rather than buying
    that pig in a poke.



    Even Nixon was smart enough to initiate wage & price controls when he
    figured inflation was getting bad enough to hurt his re-election
    chances. "Communist" Biden doesn't seem interested, though.

    "In late July, 1971, Nixon reiterated his adamant opposition to wage and
    price controls calling them a scheme to socialize America. Yet, less
    than a month later, in a stunning reversal, he imposed the first and
    only peacetime wage and price controls in U.S. history."

    I guess it's true what they say, only Nixon could go to China.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 08:03:36 2022
    On 6/10/2022 7:41 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 3:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 7:09 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 4:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge >>>>> them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum >>>> products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!

    There's no need to subsidize the electric car biz when they could just stop >>> subsidizing the oil biz. But the US government doesn't really want to do the
    former or stop doing the latter, until someone in the former biz starts
    coughing up enough cash to make it worth their while that is.

    Most of the "subsidies" are in-baked, regardless of gummit involvement.

    How many NON-dealer shops can you bring your EV for service?
    Are they just (effectively) veneers over the dealer's parts department?
    Can you buy a third party battery, motor, etc. to repair/replace
    one that has failed in your EV? What modifications can you make to the
    drivetrain? Plant?

    Jeez, you think I go to the DEALER for regular service? I've been to the dealer
    like once in my plug-in's lifetime for warranty service on the shifter, it had
    a fault that affects several other GM vehicles. Probably 80% of the car is built from the regular GM parts bin.

    "Veneer over the dealer's parts department"

    What do you do for the other 20% of parts?

    I suspect I can buy every part for my ICE from the dealership/manufacturer
    or several others who make compatible parts. I've replaced starters, radiators, water pumps, etc. and never was tied to the dealer's prices
    (or labor).

    This is important for folks who want to maintain an older vehicle to
    avoid the payments and taxes on a "newer" vehicle. We tend to keep
    cars for ~15 years, replacing them at ~80K because we feel we're
    "entitled" to something new. Friends always want to purchase them
    (for their kids, etc.) because they know I've meticulously
    maintained them, no accidents, etc.

    SWMBO's current vehicle challenges that as so many of the systems
    are now electronically controlled (steering, brakes, etc.)

    I don't need any kind of special tech to
    do the brakes or rotate the tires or stuff like that.

    Actually I've never had the brakes done since I bought it, with regenerative braking they wear very slowly. At the last service they tell me it'll probably
    need them at 80k so probably good until winter.

    No you can't buy a 3rd party battery or motor for it at this time, and it's probably difficult to modify in general.

    Will your next pushed software update make assumptions about the power plant that your replacement may have invalidated?

    Can you buy a 3rd party motor or transmission for a late-model Corvette? Is it
    easy to mod? Probably yes to the first question and no to the second, how many
    people in the US are there well-qualified to performance mod a C8 Corvette and
    produce anything nicer than they started with (beyond futzing with the ECU in software.) The modding market for late-model cars is so small as to be economically irrelevant.

    You're thinking from an elitist's point of view. Not everyone modifies a vehicle for increased performance. And, not all start with vettes.
    Does every EV owner buy a high-end Tesla? By your analysis, we should
    ignore those that don't (economically irrelevant).


    Besides choosing the scent of your air freshener, what choices do you
    have in your vehicle's future?

    [Imagine all of the folks NOT employed giving you those choices and
    the pricing inflexibility that ensues]

    Will you ever be able to find a *used* EV that "po' foke" can afford?

    Ever? Ever is a long time, and used cars depreciate.

    What's the value of a battery that still has serviceable life? (i.e.,
    the value of an ENGINE that still runs). THAT will set the low end of
    the (used) EV selling price.

    Used cars in general are
    holding their value pretty well right now, but you can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well under 20k. If you're ok with going older and higher miles than that you can do better than that.

    Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high miles and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that's true for just about any used
    car affordable by the very low income, it's a crapshoot. I've been very low income when I was younger and know what it's like to gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will stay reliable enough to get to work in without
    breaking down soon, it ain't fun.

    There are people who are *stuck* in "very low income". Forcing them to
    buy a vehicle that they can't afford just further traps them, there.

    An ICE owner can *choose* the amount of "driving capacity" that
    he wants to afford -- up to the size of the metal container that holds
    the fuel. Can you buy a "cheaper" version of an EV that is only useful
    for 20 mile/day travel? And, if you wanted to drive 300 miles, could
    you do so, practically?

    E.g., we drive ~100 mi/wk, on average. Rarely more than 20 miles
    at a time.

    Eh? The ICE buyer (assuming cost no object) can choose their stock fuel tank capacity up to about a factor of 2.5, a mid size car these days tends to have a
    fuel tank of about 15-18 gallons, a compact car maybe 10-12, and it's difficult
    to find anything stock with a tank capacity over 30. Maybe on a few of the biggest trucks and SUVs/fuel thirsty high-end luxury cars like a Rolls Royce with an aux tank or something, don't know offhand.

    Don't know why meanwhile some hypothetical EV model should have to have a select able battery capacity that varies over a factor of 20

    There's no cost to a bigger tank -- your vehicle has it or it doesn't.
    If it's a smaller car, it likely gets higher gas mileage so overall
    *range* is likely close to constant.

    Once you've made your battery purchase, that's your upper range limit.
    If you drive around town, primarily, are you going to invest in
    "extra capacity" just in case you want to drive a long distance?

    But, *could* opt to drive to feenigs AND BACK (~300 mi) without refueling. >> And, don't have to resort to an "extended range" version of the vehicle
    to do so. And, this is likely true for *every* ICE in town, regardless
    of "trim level"/price point.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 11:08:11 2022
    On 6/10/2022 10:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average >>>>>>>>> 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. >>>>>>>>> (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you >>>>>>>> sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel?

    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave >>>>>>> your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per
    minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be
    cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them to take your car >>>>>>> to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV >>>>>>> charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate
    charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing
    that people actually come up with solutions to the BEV worrisome >>>>>>> problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not >>>>>>> sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore,
    because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 >>>>>>> tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS:

    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I >>>>>> don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the
    fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I
    liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a
    regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to >>>>> move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for
    better control in racing, in cars that actually had enough HP? Or
    was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards >>>>> the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for >>>> the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a
    Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter,
    that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early
    20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I
    could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL!  At least you didn't say Chrysler product.  Still, you aren't
    saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had
    to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!

    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/>

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    You don't read car mags very often do you? Every car is the greatest
    thing since sliced bread. When advertising revenues pay the light bill
    you're not going to piss in anybody's Wheaties.

    I read them plenty. Car & Driver does _not_ review everything as the
    greatest thing. They rarely give anything a 1/10 or a very low score,
    because new car quality overall is quite good these days, it's rare
    anything objectively deserves a very low score.

    But I don't think they live in fear of the manufacturers, they have too
    much clout.

    The late-model Jeep Compass just as one example got fairly ripped:

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/compass>

    "Lethargic gas powertrain, can't tow as much as the Cherokee, poor value proposition."

    Doesn't sound like the "greatest thing" to me.

    And they don't give every luxury car with a high price tag glowing
    reviews either.

    Anyway, Consumer Reports said much the same things about the Volt - they
    aren't beholden to any ads.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 11:18:37 2022
    On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the
    WSJ

    Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
    revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's
    Wheaties.

    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition:  "Best taco shop", "Best
    barber", "Best ...".  They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
    to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Best hamburger.  Best CHEESEburger.  Best french fries.  Best ribs.  Best steak.  Best business on north side of street.  Best business on SOUTH
    side of street.  Best business with an awning out front.  Best business with
    fewer than 5 parking spaces.

    [I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a "best"!]

    Of course, they post the results.

    And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward:  "Voted
    'Best' for
    three years running!"

    Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and results),
    they decided they could do it *twice* a year!  (in case the best taco shop happened to change in the interim).

    There are few objectively "bad" cars made in 2022, the market has been
    ruthless at eliminating them. There are mostly just cars that are
    overpriced for what they offer, compared to competitors in their same
    class. This Jeep Compass gets a 6/10 priced at 30k for a mid trim model:

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/compass>

    If they could somehow sell it at 15k, wow! 9/10. Obviously they can't do
    that, though, and so it gets what it gets.

    There are definitely some restaurants out there serving some objectively
    bad food and some barber shops giving objectively bad haircuts, though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 11:22:51 2022
    On 6/10/2022 11:18 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for
    the WSJ

    Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
    revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's
    Wheaties.

    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition:  "Best taco
    shop", "Best
    barber", "Best ...".  They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers >> to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Best hamburger.  Best CHEESEburger.  Best french fries.  Best ribs.  Best
    steak.  Best business on north side of street.  Best business on SOUTH
    side of street.  Best business with an awning out front.  Best
    business with
    fewer than 5 parking spaces.

    [I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a "best"!]

    Of course, they post the results.

    And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward:  "Voted
    'Best' for
    three years running!"

    Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and
    results),
    they decided they could do it *twice* a year!  (in case the best taco
    shop
    happened to change in the interim).

    There are few objectively "bad" cars made in 2022, the market has been ruthless at eliminating them

    I should qualify that by "For sale in the US market" like you can
    definitely find some cars out there in the world that if Car & Driver
    were to review them as if they were for sale in the US market they would
    get a 1/10. They're not for sale here though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 11:41:22 2022
    On 6/10/2022 11:03 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Used cars in general are holding their value pretty well right now,
    but you can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well
    under 20k. If you're ok with going older and higher miles than that
    you can do better than that.

    Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high
    miles and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that's true for
    just about any used car affordable by the very low income, it's a
    crapshoot. I've been very low income when I was younger and know what
    it's like to gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will
    stay reliable enough to get to work in without breaking down soon, it
    ain't fun.

    There are people who are *stuck* in "very low income".  Forcing them to
    buy a vehicle that they can't afford just further traps them, there.

    I don't have time to address all your points atm but I'd like to be
    clear on this point. I'm what many users here consider a "communist", I
    don't believe in forcing the poor to purchase vehicles they can't
    afford, and I've made this objection before on another thread by Ricky,
    who sometimes seems left-wing and at other times doesn't seem
    particularly left-wing at all.

    I have no ire at a low-income person who drives a gas car because that's
    what they can afford & I don't blame them for anything with respect to
    what at this time is likely the most pragmatic choice. I don't demand
    they change that.

    I believe in demanding the government to use my taxes to pay to
    subsidize housing and transportation needs of the poor. vs spending
    trillions on the defense racket and FUCKING WORTHLESS WARS!

    to put it crassly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 09:03:39 2022
    On 6/10/2022 8:41 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 11:03 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Used cars in general are holding their value pretty well right now, but you >>> can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well under 20k. If >>> you're ok with going older and higher miles than that you can do better than
    that.

    Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high miles and
    probably well out of warranty coverage, but that's true for just about any >>> used car affordable by the very low income, it's a crapshoot. I've been very
    low income when I was younger and know what it's like to gamble with what >>> cheap used car to buy, hoping it will stay reliable enough to get to work in
    without breaking down soon, it ain't fun.

    There are people who are *stuck* in "very low income". Forcing them to
    buy a vehicle that they can't afford just further traps them, there.

    I don't have time to address all your points atm but I'd like to be clear on this point. I'm what many users here consider a "communist", I don't believe in
    forcing the poor to purchase vehicles they can't afford, and I've made this objection before on another thread by Ricky, who sometimes seems left-wing and
    at other times doesn't seem particularly left-wing at all.

    But if the only *choices* they have are those that they can't afford, is there really a difference?

    One can "blame" them for their plight -- and, for some, its hard to imagine
    how they can justify "high speed internet, CATV and a fancy phone", but not decent transportation (or healthy food).

    Until we come up with a solution that scales well -- in numbers and across income/opportunity groups -- we're just spinning our wheels.

    New cars (of any technology) are increasingly difficult for low income
    folks to afford and maintain. Does that effectively solve the polution
    and global warming problems by relegating them to mass transit? But,
    then, what responsibility do we (the "privileged/taxable") have to provide effective mass transit -- even though we don't DIRECTLY benefit from it?

    What consequence if those folks can't offer their labor (to *us*!)?

    It's not uncommon to pay a few hundred dollars, monthly, to have your
    yardwork done (and lots are very small, here). What if the guy
    can't physically *get* to your yard -- would YOU have to pull your
    own weeds?? (OhMiGosh!)

    I have no ire at a low-income person who drives a gas car because that's what they can afford & I don't blame them for anything with respect to what at this
    time is likely the most pragmatic choice. I don't demand they change that.

    But if "public policy" reduces their choices, then what? Isn't it
    hypocritical to tell the developing world that they can't leverage fossil
    fuels to improve their standard of living -- after we (the developed
    world) made a mess of things in our efforts to improve ours?

    Do we have an obligation to bear deeper cuts and financially subsidize
    those regions? Doesn't every Indian and Chinaman "deserve" a vehicle?
    Air conditioning? Quality food?

    I believe in demanding the government to use my taxes to pay to subsidize housing and transportation needs of the poor. vs spending trillions on the defense racket and FUCKING WORTHLESS WARS!

    The gummit will ALWAYS be using your tax dollars to pursue ITS objectives. (_Three Days of the Condor_)

    These objectives will coincide with the desires of some. But, as we have
    a representational democracy (instead of "true") our influence over those policies is, at best, indirect.

    to put it crassly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 12:24:51 2022
    On 6/10/2022 12:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

    But if "public policy" reduces their choices, then what?  Isn't it hypocritical to tell the developing world that they can't leverage fossil fuels to improve their standard of living -- after we (the developed
    world) made a mess of things in our efforts to improve ours?

    Do we have an obligation to bear deeper cuts and financially subsidize
    those regions?  Doesn't every Indian and Chinaman "deserve" a vehicle?
    Air conditioning?  Quality food?


    <https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/gty3ge/20_years_of_development_in_shanghai_china/>

    I'd say China's well on its way to providing those things to every
    "Chinaman", long before every Americaman has them..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 12:29:04 2022
    On 6/10/2022 12:24 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 12:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

    But if "public policy" reduces their choices, then what?  Isn't it
    hypocritical to tell the developing world that they can't leverage fossil
    fuels to improve their standard of living -- after we (the developed
    world) made a mess of things in our efforts to improve ours?

    Do we have an obligation to bear deeper cuts and financially subsidize
    those regions?  Doesn't every Indian and Chinaman "deserve" a vehicle?
    Air conditioning?  Quality food?


    <https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/gty3ge/20_years_of_development_in_shanghai_china/>


    I'd say China's well on its way to providing those things to every "Chinaman", long before every Americaman has them..

    Or IOW the time the rest of the world dictates what the BRIC nations do
    is rapidly evaporating, and the time the BRIC nations dictate what the
    world does seems to be coming fast.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 10:50:11 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel? >>>>>>>
    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them
    to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS: >>>>>>
    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the >>>>>> fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that
    actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for >>>> the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a >>>> Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter, >>>> that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early >>>> 20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I >>>> could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/> >>
    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    What does WSJ have to do with this? I'm going by your experience. You've convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

    It's a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
    except it's quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
    well. Not sure what I "convinced" you of or why you're freaking out over that one thing.

    You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can't argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

    The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is
    proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 11:10:14 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 11:41:31 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 11:03 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Used cars in general are holding their value pretty well right now,
    but you can get a low-miles circa 2016 Nissan Leaf on Carmax for well
    under 20k. If you're ok with going older and higher miles than that
    you can do better than that.

    Some early Chevy Volts are selling for under 10, they will be high
    miles and probably well out of warranty coverage, but that's true for
    just about any used car affordable by the very low income, it's a
    crapshoot. I've been very low income when I was younger and know what
    it's like to gamble with what cheap used car to buy, hoping it will
    stay reliable enough to get to work in without breaking down soon, it
    ain't fun.

    There are people who are *stuck* in "very low income". Forcing them to buy a vehicle that they can't afford just further traps them, there.
    I don't have time to address all your points atm but I'd like to be
    clear on this point. I'm what many users here consider a "communist", I don't believe in forcing the poor to purchase vehicles they can't
    afford, and I've made this objection before on another thread by Ricky,
    who sometimes seems left-wing and at other times doesn't seem
    particularly left-wing at all.

    If you were able to actually read and understand what was written, you would know this is not true. But you are who you are, and nothing I say will change your mind. I'm left of left and I'm so far right even Barry Goldwater thinks I'm extreme. I want
    to oppress the working class and I want to give them all free handouts taken from the rich. I'm the alpha and the omega. Well, at least that's how you interpret what I write.


    I have no ire at a low-income person who drives a gas car because that's what they can afford & I don't blame them for anything with respect to
    what at this time is likely the most pragmatic choice. I don't demand
    they change that.

    I believe in demanding the government to use my taxes to pay to
    subsidize housing and transportation needs of the poor. vs spending trillions on the defense racket and FUCKING WORTHLESS WARS!

    to put it crassly.

    More accurately, to put it stupidly.

    War machines are essential to the security of every nation. Just ask Ukraine! If you have them, once in a while you have to show you know how to use them. Russia would like to be showing that, but they aren't doing so well.

    I would love to subsidize even more housing as required (your statement makes it sound like this is not done, but it is actually common everyplace where I live). The fact that people live in the street does not automatically mean more housing is needed,
    it is not uncommon for people to refuse any accommodations. So where it is needed, I agree, we should supply it. It has nothing to do with military spending unless those in need of housing are in the military, which does happen.

    I was in New Orleans and met people who live on the streets. I can't say if this is because of inadequate housing, or if they simply have chosen this life for whatever reasons. I'm not automatically assuming it is because there's no place for them to
    live.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 12:12:40 2022
    On 6/10/2022 8:18 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ >>>
    Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
    revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's Wheaties. >>
    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition: "Best taco shop", "Best
    barber", "Best ...". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
    to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Best hamburger. Best CHEESEburger. Best french fries. Best ribs. Best
    steak. Best business on north side of street. Best business on SOUTH
    side of street. Best business with an awning out front. Best business with >> fewer than 5 parking spaces.

    [I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a "best"!]

    Of course, they post the results.

    And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward: "Voted 'Best' for
    three years running!"

    Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and results),
    they decided they could do it *twice* a year! (in case the best taco shop >> happened to change in the interim).

    There are few objectively "bad" cars made in 2022, the market has been ruthless
    at eliminating them. There are mostly just cars that are overpriced for what they offer, compared to competitors in their same class. This Jeep Compass gets
    a 6/10 priced at 30k for a mid trim model:

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/compass>

    If they could somehow sell it at 15k, wow! 9/10. Obviously they can't do that,
    though, and so it gets what it gets.

    There are definitely some restaurants out there serving some objectively bad food and some barber shops giving objectively bad haircuts, though.

    They, eventually, close their doors.

    Note that the rag doesn't ask folks to *rate* the establishments;
    and, doesn't tabulate the number of "votes" each received.

    So, it is useless for anything more than generating ad revenue
    (as the folks who respond self-select to do so!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Jun 10 15:35:31 2022
    On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel? >>>>>>>>>
    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them
    to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to the
    BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS: >>>>>>>>
    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the >>>>>>>> fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that
    actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for >>>>>> the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a >>>>>> Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick.

    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter, >>>>>> that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early >>>>>> 20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I >>>>>> could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10"

    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/> >>>>
    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ >>>
    What does WSJ have to do with this? I'm going by your experience. You've convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

    It's a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
    except it's quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
    well. Not sure what I "convinced" you of or why you're freaking out over
    that one thing.

    You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can't argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

    The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is
    proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!


    It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the computer thinks it's appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
    - if that's what you mean. It's not entirely under manual control.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 13:24:59 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel? >>>>>>>>>
    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them
    to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged.

    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to
    the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS: >>>>>>>>
    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the >>>>>>>> fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that
    actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for
    the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a >>>>>> Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick. >>>>>>
    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter, >>>>>> that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early >>>>>> 20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I >>>>>> could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10" >>>>
    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/> >>>>
    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    What does WSJ have to do with this? I'm going by your experience. You've convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

    It's a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
    except it's quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
    well. Not sure what I "convinced" you of or why you're freaking out over >> that one thing.

    You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can't argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

    The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is
    proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

    It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the computer thinks it's appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
    - if that's what you mean. It's not entirely under manual control.

    Why would it not be completely under control of the driver, like the acceleration is? That's what you don't seem to get. It is one continuous control, accelerate, decelerate, all from the same control. It's actually one of the truly great things about
    a properly designed BEV, the smoothness and responsiveness of the "throttle".

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Jun 10 17:30:17 2022
    On 6/10/2022 4:24 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 10:07:19 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 9:56 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:56 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, June 9, 2022 at 10:02:59 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 11:41 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:55:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2022 10:36 AM, Ricky wrote:

    Supercharging is at a rate of 700miles/hour, so if you average 60 miles
    on road, you would spend 33 hours driving, and 3 hours charging. (not
    counting that you could charge during sleep)
    Can you leave your car at a supercharger for 8+ hours while you sleep?

    How do you get from the supercharger to/from a decent hotel? >>>>>>>>>>>
    A Supercharger is for rapid charging. You are not allowed to leave your car while connected after charging. You get billed $1 per minute. That would be an expensive stay in a hotel. It would be cheaper to stay in the nice hotel, then pay them
    to take your car to the Supercharger and bring it back when charged. >>>>>>>>>>>
    But wait! Someone has thought of this!!! The typical hotel has BEV charging facilities, of the level 2 type. That is a lower rate charger, designed to be plugged in overnight! Wow! It's amazing that people actually come up with solutions to
    the BEV worrisome problems that keep Larkin awake all night.

    As to getting to or from a hotel... I typically drive my BEV. Not sure what Larkin would do when he can't buy an ICE anymore, because no one sells them in hauling capacities of less than 2-1/2 tons.

    Here's the car for some of the other guys here. 1984 HURST OLDS: >>>>>>>>>>
    <https://youtu.be/YjTqjRK_SQs>

    (emphasis on OLD)

    Look at that gearshift, an automatic with extra steps. Horrible. I don't
    resent that it had a 307 V8 with 140 HP though, that was just the >>>>>>>>>> fashion at the time.

    I enjoyed that video. The commenter has a good sense of humor. I liked the HP descriptions. lol

    I'm not clear on how the Hurst shifter was any different from a regular automatic with the 2 and 1 positions, except that you had to move multiple levers. What that for real? I suppose it allowed for better control in racing, in cars that
    actually had enough HP? Or was it a complete farce as the commenter seemed to be saying towards the end?

    The boomers were entering their mid 30s in 1984 and were nostalgic for >>>>>>>> the cars of the 60s already. The 1968 Hurst/Olds made 390 HP with a >>>>>>>> Hurst Dual Gate shifter that was something other than a gimmick. >>>>>>>>
    The boomers are still nostalgic for cars of the 60s like the latter, >>>>>>>> that to this day they remember driving as teenagers or in their early >>>>>>>> 20s. I have no nostalgia for the cars of my teens and 20s, the ones I >>>>>>>> could afford were pretty bad:

    <https://youtu.be/mAKdyOUas8k>

    The Volt is 100% the nicest GM product I've ever owned

    LOL! At least you didn't say Chrysler product. Still, you aren't saying much.

    You sold me on how bad the Volt was when you talked about how you had to modulate the regenerative braking by slapping a paddle!
    Car and Driver's take was:

    "it continues to be an exceptional hybrid and an excellent car, 8/10" >>>>>>
    <https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/volt>

    Autoblog:

    "Best used car value in America"

    <https://www.autoblog.com/2021/12/23/chevy-volt-best-used-car-opinion/> >>>>>>
    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the WSJ

    What does WSJ have to do with this? I'm going by your experience. You've convinced me to never consider any sort of Chevy EV product in the future. Clearly they have very bizarre ideas of how cars should operate.

    It's a plug in hybrid and probably drives similar to the Prius Prime,
    except it's quicker. The regenerator paddle is kind of a gimmick, oh
    well. Not sure what I "convinced" you of or why you're freaking out over >>>> that one thing.

    You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can't argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

    The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is
    proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

    It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the
    computer thinks it's appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car
    - if that's what you mean. It's not entirely under manual control.

    Why would it not be completely under control of the driver, like the acceleration is? That's what you don't seem to get. It is one continuous control, accelerate, decelerate, all from the same control. It's actually one of the truly great things
    about a properly designed BEV, the smoothness and responsiveness of the "throttle".


    I don't enjoy driving a car that behaves that way personally.

    You say "properly designed" but I doubt the overall efficiency gains of
    having the accelerator behave that way are that amazing vs just letting
    the car "coast" down when you let up, and let the computer manage the
    regen, tapping off some energy as it sees fit.My guess would be it's
    maybe 5-10% at the outside worse that way, it's not gonna be like a 50% difference.

    You can drive the Bolt and Volt that way if you want, I've tried it and
    got like maybe 2 miles better range. Tesla's implementation may be
    better but what magic do they have to make it something really special.

    Also sounds like a good way to be surprised you're not stopping if the
    computer detects wheelslip and cuts out the regeneration, I don't think
    it can apply the mechanical brakes as a backup if your foots not on the
    brake pedal.

    It's known to happen in the Leaf and GM's EVs, I doubt Teslas are immune.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 18:57:13 2022
    On 06/10/2022 08:35 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:20 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

    What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
    ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
    landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive "cheap" cars,
    likely because they can't afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

    Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don't think the
    pool cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama's Cash for
    Clunkers drove up the price of used cars but no problem; it was for
    the kids.

    I suspect many "middle class" households are similarly pressed when
    it comes to car payments. (The idea of buying a car "on time" is
    anathema to me).

    I think the last one I bought like that was an '80 Camaro. $99 down and
    0% financing through GMAC. The price was right and it fleshed out my
    credit history.

    It is amusing dealing with car salesmen. They're hard wired to discuss financing and keep starting the spiel even after you've told them you're
    going to write a check.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 17:59:23 2022
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 5:30:24 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 4:24 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 10, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 1:50 PM, Ricky wrote:

    You are like Larkin. When someone is having a discussion where you can't argue the facts, you resort to characterizing them as having unreasonable objections.

    The regeneration is the major feature of battery vehicles that saves energy, second only to the high efficiency from being electric. It is why BEVs get better mileage in city driving than highway. In a properly designed car, the regeneration is
    proportional to the accelerator pedal position, a clean segue from acceleration to deceleration. Flipping paddles to PWM the regeneration is insane. It sounds like something Ed Lee would do and think as wonderful!

    It engages regeneration at other times under computer control, when the >> computer thinks it's appropriate to do so, same as any other hybrid car >> - if that's what you mean. It's not entirely under manual control.

    Why would it not be completely under control of the driver, like the acceleration is? That's what you don't seem to get. It is one continuous control, accelerate, decelerate, all from the same control. It's actually one of the truly great things
    about a properly designed BEV, the smoothness and responsiveness of the "throttle".

    I don't enjoy driving a car that behaves that way personally.

    I didn't realize you have had any cars with regeneration other than the Volt. What was it?


    You say "properly designed" but I doubt the overall efficiency gains of having the accelerator behave that way are that amazing vs just letting
    the car "coast" down when you let up, and let the computer manage the
    regen, tapping off some energy as it sees fit.My guess would be it's
    maybe 5-10% at the outside worse that way, it's not gonna be like a 50% difference.

    I have no idea what you are talking about when you say the "computer" manages the regen. How would the computer know anything about when to provide regen and how much? What inputs does it use? The Tesla lets you control it when you are driving, or it
    controls it when on autopilot. It's not that the "regen" is controlled, in that the control is how much power to put back into the battery. It is a way to brake the car. The driver can control that braking or the autopilot can control that braking.
    The return of power to the battery is the result, not the goal.

    The efficiency gains come from using the regen. I never said it had to do with the way the accelerator works.


    You can drive the Bolt and Volt that way if you want, I've tried it and
    got like maybe 2 miles better range. Tesla's implementation may be
    better but what magic do they have to make it something really special.

    Also sounds like a good way to be surprised you're not stopping if the computer detects wheelslip and cuts out the regeneration, I don't think
    it can apply the mechanical brakes as a backup if your foots not on the brake pedal.

    I've never had an issue with wheelslip, but if that is happening, it is better for the car to manage it than you stepping on the brakes. Either way, in the Tesla, the car will stop as quickly as possible given the traction. Not that I've driven a lot
    of fancy cars, but the traction control in the Tesla is amazing.


    It's known to happen in the Leaf and GM's EVs, I doubt Teslas are immune.

    No, road conditions are road conditions. The road doesn't care what car you are driving.

    You can get a surprise on a full charged car. The charging rate of the battery is limited enough that somewhere above 90% charge, the regen is limited noticeably. If you charge to 100% and you start out, you won't have regen braking until you've driven
    off a few percent. That's reason number 23 to not charge to 100%. The only time I charge to 100% is to recal the battery and I recently read that you only need to charge to 95% to do that. Much better.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 19:17:26 2022
    On 06/10/2022 08:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the
    WSJ

    Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
    revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's
    Wheaties.

    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition: "Best taco shop",
    "Best
    barber", "Best ...". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
    to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Same here. About the only rag I trusted was Motorcycle Consumer News.
    They were completely subscriber supported with no ads. The only possible leverage was they couldn't afford to buy the motorcycles they tested so
    used the ones provided to the press. That never seemed to hold them back
    from criticism. Unfortunately they suddenly went out of business in
    2020. After the January issue they mailed the subscribers and said that
    was the last one. If you wanted they would try to refund the unused subscription portion. If any of the writers knew the ax was falling they
    gave no indication.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumina_Media

    Apparently the ferret fanciers were sol too. I knew MCN was published by
    BowTie Press and assumed BowTie referred to Chevrolet not a bow tie
    wearing pet lover with some weird link to motorcycles.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 19:30:07 2022
    On 06/10/2022 09:22 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 11:18 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 10:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for
    the WSJ

    Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
    revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's
    Wheaties.

    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition: "Best taco
    shop", "Best
    barber", "Best ...". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the
    readers
    to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Best hamburger. Best CHEESEburger. Best french fries. Best ribs.
    Best
    steak. Best business on north side of street. Best business on SOUTH
    side of street. Best business with an awning out front. Best
    business with
    fewer than 5 parking spaces.

    [I.e., lets make sure EVERYONE can be a "best"!]

    Of course, they post the results.

    And, use that to drum up advertising dollars going forward: "Voted
    'Best' for
    three years running!"

    Not content with wasting a couple of issues on this (nominations and
    results),
    they decided they could do it *twice* a year! (in case the best taco
    shop
    happened to change in the interim).

    There are few objectively "bad" cars made in 2022, the market has been
    ruthless at eliminating them

    I should qualify that by "For sale in the US market" like you can
    definitely find some cars out there in the world that if Car & Driver
    were to review them as if they were for sale in the US market they would
    get a 1/10. They're not for sale here though.



    Including afaik anything made in France. My brother was fond of Peugeots
    but I don't think they've been available for decades.

    https://www.tatamotors.com/press/tata-motors-unveils-the-power-packed-punch-indias-first-sub-compact-suv/

    I do wonder how some of Tata's offerings would stack up. What's not to
    like about a car with '370 mm Water wading capability'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 19:40:58 2022
    On 06/10/2022 09:08 AM, bitrex wrote:

    Anyway, Consumer Reports said much the same things about the Volt - they aren't beholden to any ads.

    Amazing that they didn't say you were better off with a Honda Civic. I
    used to read CR for suggestions on things I know nothing about like
    digital cameras. However I noticed in the categories that I do know
    about that they played it very very safe. If you want middle of the road bourgeois selections CR is your man.

    Perhaps I'm biased since the last time I looked they loathed my ride.
    Noisy, under powered, unsafe, uncomfortable, only suitable for short
    trips around town, etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 10 20:09:06 2022
    On 06/10/2022 08:52 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 11:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 02:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/8/2022 12:05 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    They took a modern fast-charging EV along a route that didn't have the >>>>> infrastructure to support it, and discover...there wasn't the
    infrastructure to support it. News?

    When everybody has an EV and there isn't enough grid power to charge
    them will that be news to you?

    I'm sure glad there's never a shortage (real OR artificial) of petroleum >>> products (/cf/ Arab Oil Embargo) that might cause rationing or other
    measures to control (limit) demand!


    And on even days you can buy 5 gallons of gas... Been there, done
    that, and lived through the inflation when Nixon's wage and price
    controls unraveled. Jimmy really should have stuck to peanuts rather
    than buying that pig in a poke.



    Even Nixon was smart enough to initiate wage & price controls when he
    figured inflation was getting bad enough to hurt his re-election
    chances. "Communist" Biden doesn't seem interested, though.

    "In late July, 1971, Nixon reiterated his adamant opposition to wage and price controls calling them a scheme to socialize America. Yet, less
    than a month later, in a stunning reversal, he imposed the first and
    only peacetime wage and price controls in U.S. history."

    I guess it's true what they say, only Nixon could go to China.


    Yeah, Nixon instituted wage and price controls and left the office in
    disgrace. Jimmy Carter was the poor son of a bitch who got the blame
    when Nixon's chickens came home to roost. There may be a lesson from
    when Carter fired everybody and appointed Volcker. Inflation didn't go
    away. Some would argue Reagan's voodoo economics saved the day and
    Volcker was part of the problem; others argue Volcker saved Reagan
    despite himself.

    it is true Clueless Joe doesn't have a plan other than crossing his
    fingers and blaming everyone but Joe Biden. Today's report wasn't promising.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 20:10:17 2022
    On 6/10/2022 6:17 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 08:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:48 AM, bitrex wrote:

    The authors seem a bit more qualified than the person writing for the
    WSJ

    Every car is the greatest thing since sliced bread. When advertising
    revenues pay the light bill you're not going to piss in anybody's
    Wheaties.

    One of the local rags publishes a "Best of" edition: "Best taco shop",
    "Best
    barber", "Best ...". They make a big deal of it, encouraging the readers
    to VOTE for *their* favorites in each of these categories.

    Same here. About the only rag I trusted was Motorcycle Consumer News. They were
    completely subscriber supported with no ads. The only possible leverage was they couldn't afford to buy the motorcycles they tested so used the ones provided to the press. That never seemed to hold them back from criticism. Unfortunately they suddenly went out of business in 2020. After the January issue they mailed the subscribers and said that was the last one. If you wanted
    they would try to refund the unused subscription portion. If any of the writers
    knew the ax was falling they gave no indication.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumina_Media

    Apparently the ferret fanciers were sol too. I knew MCN was published by BowTie
    Press and assumed BowTie referred to Chevrolet not a bow tie wearing pet lover
    with some weird link to motorcycles.

    There are thousands (?) of different magazines published (speaking just of the US market). I suspect you could find one on any subject, regardless of how exotic/narrow. Most of them are underwritten by ads. And, most of them are short-lived!

    The moral being to think thrice before accepting anything you read
    (who's axe is being ground, here? how are they trying to manipulate my opinions?) especially if it is remotely tied to merchandise of some type.

    Money spent on ads is money NOT spent on product quality/innovation.
    And, you (as potential customer) end u0p paying for those ads.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 20:17:44 2022
    On 6/10/2022 5:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 08:35 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/10/2022 7:20 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 07:58 AM, Don Y wrote:

    What portion of the population do you want to exclude from having the
    ability to drive (to work, etc.)? The folks who clean pools, do
    landscaping, work in restaurants, etc. tend to drive "cheap" cars,
    likely because they can't afford (the payments!) on a $15K vehicle.

    Considering the market for used tires and batteries I don't think the
    pool cleaners have a lot of disposable income. Obama's Cash for
    Clunkers drove up the price of used cars but no problem; it was for
    the kids.

    I suspect many "middle class" households are similarly pressed when
    it comes to car payments. (The idea of buying a car "on time" is
    anathema to me).

    I think the last one I bought like that was an '80 Camaro. $99 down and 0% financing through GMAC. The price was right and it fleshed out my credit history.

    It is amusing dealing with car salesmen. They're hard wired to discuss financing and keep starting the spiel even after you've told them you're going
    to write a check.

    It's gotta be a shitty way to make a living; (I guess ANY type of
    salesman would fall in that category) knowing your goal is to try to screw
    the customer out of as much money as possible.

    We've been looking at furniture for the past few days (SWMBO wants a new
    chair "to eat popcorn in"). I'm stunned when I hear the salesmen
    bragging about having been at that job for 23 years, 15 years, etc.
    Christ, you'd think they'd have grown tired of it 22 and 14 years
    prior!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)