• =?UTF-8?Q?Convenience_=C3=BCber_alles=21?=

    From Ricky@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 29 06:19:48 2022
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of
    London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known about
    smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 29 15:51:37 2022
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
    poisoned.

    Not true.

    The Victorians also used lead piping for drinking water and were not
    poisoned by doing that at all. Only the most acidic soft water off
    peatlands will dissolve any lead from water pipes. Most ordinary tap
    water has enough dissolved salts in it that the inside of the pipe furs
    up within the first year of use and no lead then escapes. The very name "plumber" comes from the usage of lead pipes until very recently.

    The Romans were poisoned by using sugar of lead (aka lead acetate) as an artificial sweetener. Sweet things were very rare in antiquity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener

    Lots of other food adulteration was going on though since antiquity with everything from brick dust to arsenic and white lead being used to bulk
    up or colour foodstuffs. This was at its worst in the Victorian era.

    200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and
    suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without
    regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly poisoned. Now,
    all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society
    and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth
    and waste.

    Whilst things have improved a lot in the past half century I am not sure
    that they will continue to do so. It is cheaper to ignore the problem.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic
    auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the
    planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in,
    not so different from the poisonous fogs of London. Yet, so many of
    us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with
    autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    Auto emissions are a part of the problem but aircraft and power plant
    emissions are also major contributors to global CO2 rise.

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam
    the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most
    poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the existing
    regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very
    importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this
    century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can
    resolve much of the impact of our transport plight, the battery
    electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because
    it is different, with different advantages and different
    liabilities.

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
    various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants. Out
    of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no
    downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also
    end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

    The main one from my point of view is severe lack of EV range even from
    new, an absence of decent charging points outside of major cities and of
    spare electricity in the UK with which to charge them. That charging hub
    at York still isn't open! They are claiming just a few more days now.
    (It is almost a year late, insanely over budget and cannot meet any of
    its originally claimed pricing - you cannot buy electricity today at the
    price that they were intending to sell it for)

    https://yorkmix.com/yorks-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-set-to-open-nearly-a-year-late/

    I'll let you know when/if it actually opens (and if it actually works).

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept
    aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of
    land transportation. We would have never known about smog or the
    disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of
    coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the
    convenience of battery powered cars.

    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
    car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Sun May 29 09:12:34 2022
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of
    entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
    poisoned.

    Not true.

    The Victorians also used lead piping for drinking water and were not
    poisoned by doing that at all. Only the most acidic soft water off
    peatlands will dissolve any lead from water pipes. Most ordinary tap
    water has enough dissolved salts in it that the inside of the pipe furs
    up within the first year of use and no lead then escapes. The very name >"plumber" comes from the usage of lead pipes until very recently.

    The Romans were poisoned by using sugar of lead (aka lead acetate) as an >artificial sweetener. Sweet things were very rare in antiquity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener

    Lots of other food adulteration was going on though since antiquity with >everything from brick dust to arsenic and white lead being used to bulk
    up or colour foodstuffs. This was at its worst in the Victorian era.

    200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and
    suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without
    regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly poisoned. Now,
    all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society
    and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we
    recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth
    and waste.

    Whilst things have improved a lot in the past half century I am not sure
    that they will continue to do so. It is cheaper to ignore the problem.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic
    auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the
    planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in,
    not so different from the poisonous fogs of London. Yet, so many of
    us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with
    autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal
    transportation convenience is a birthright!

    Auto emissions are a part of the problem but aircraft and power plant >emissions are also major contributors to global CO2 rise.

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam
    the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most
    poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the existing
    regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very
    importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this
    century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can
    resolve much of the impact of our transport plight, the battery
    electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because
    it is different, with different advantages and different
    liabilities.

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
    various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants. Out
    of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no
    downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also
    end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

    The main one from my point of view is severe lack of EV range even from
    new, an absence of decent charging points outside of major cities and of >spare electricity in the UK with which to charge them. That charging hub
    at York still isn't open! They are claiming just a few more days now.
    (It is almost a year late, insanely over budget and cannot meet any of
    its originally claimed pricing - you cannot buy electricity today at the >price that they were intending to sell it for)

    https://yorkmix.com/yorks-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-set-to-open-nearly-a-year-late/

    I'll let you know when/if it actually opens (and if it actually works).

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of
    transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept
    aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of
    land transportation. We would have never known about smog or the
    disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of
    coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the
    convenience of battery powered cars.

    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been >available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
    car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience ber alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(

    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    To appreciate how bad things were, read this:

    https://tinyurl.com/563rtw9d



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon May 30 04:36:59 2022
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

    <snip>

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling >various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

    It can be be. It doesn't have to be.

    Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is entirely independent.

    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been >available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a >car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    Battery cars were popular early on. There weren't many of them so they were just as expensive as petrol cars.

    EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.

    Twaddle.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(

    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available>

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney (though in Nijmegen in the Netherlands at the moment).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 30 16:05:43 2022
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling >various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.
    Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).
    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/
    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been >available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a >car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys. >EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.
    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!

    Rick, your point about personal convenience reminded me of
    the New Scientist article, "33 reasons why we cant think clearly
    about climate change", and its theory of "dragons of inaction" https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730290-300-33-reasons-why-we-cant-think-clearly-about-climate-change/
    (mostly behind a paywall)
    Basically, we all tend to be subject to cognitive fallacies,
    weak logic, short-term-time dominance. And (as many other articles have explained) these weaknesses are exploited by political groups and big business. We really need "inoculation" at a young age to be
    critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
    regards, rs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon May 30 21:13:30 2022
    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of
    London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    For someone espousing some kind of green revolution you sure know how to
    give lots of people who might otherwise be interested the big fuck you
    from the window of ya luxury car..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon May 30 21:14:15 2022
    On 5/30/2022 9:13 PM, bitrex wrote:


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor

    In favor of the personal vehicle, rather

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon May 30 22:09:10 2022
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 9:13:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of
    London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk." Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    For someone espousing some kind of green revolution you sure know how to give lots of people who might otherwise be interested the big fuck you
    from the window of ya luxury car..

    Well, how about a big "fuck you" here, instead? Is that what you think when you see someone driving a BEV, they are saying "fuck you"? What was I saying when I drove the same pickup truck for 20 years?

    I don't really have a reason to say "fuck you" to you, personally. But I am happy to say "fuck you" to Google, who keeps making the usenet experience worse every time they change things. Not entirely unlike Tesla fixing things in the UI which aren't
    broken.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue May 31 10:09:10 2022
    On 5/31/2022 1:09 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 9:13:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of
    London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk."
    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    For someone espousing some kind of green revolution you sure know how to
    give lots of people who might otherwise be interested the big fuck you
    from the window of ya luxury car..

    Well, how about a big "fuck you" here, instead? Is that what you think when you see someone driving a BEV, they are saying "fuck you"? What was I saying when I drove the same pickup truck for 20 years?

    I don't really have a reason to say "fuck you" to you, personally. But I am happy to say "fuck you" to Google, who keeps making the usenet experience worse every time they change things. Not entirely unlike Tesla fixing things in the UI which aren't
    broken.


    I think there should be a birthright to a lot of things in the so-called "Greatest Country" in the world. Right to nutritious food to eat, a
    place to live, affordable healthcare, an education, the right to not be
    gunned down by some whack job while trying to get said education, the
    list goes on.

    And if transportation is required to get any of those other things then
    yeah there should be a right to affordable transportation, also.

    But, far from being the "Greatest Country" (more like a shithole
    country) people will tell you its the greatest country while meanwhile
    saying that as citizen of said greatest country you don't have a right
    to shit. Might be funny, if it weren't so sad..

    "if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass,
    we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation."

    Who's "we"? If a gas-burner is what someone is currently using to
    approximate their right-to-transportation such that they can afford it
    what should they do differently. Buy a BEV they can't afford? You gonna
    pay for it? Elon Musk gonna pay for it?

    Elon Musk doesn't give a fuck if any particular person can get to the
    grocery store or not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Rich S on Tue May 31 16:52:23 2022
    On 2022-05-31 01:05, Rich S wrote:
    [...] We really need "inoculation" at a young age to be
    critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
    regards, rs


    Disagree. Ideas drilled into you at a young age are
    uncritically accepted as beliefs. Critical thinking
    comes later. Weak logic and cognitive fallacies are
    of all ages, but advanced education helps, even if
    it's no panacea.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue May 31 08:05:23 2022
    On Mon, 30 May 2022 21:13:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of
    London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience ber alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    Bicycles, trains, steamboats, tractors, busses, cars, airplanes, and
    electric unicycles just followed the trend.

    Here we have more public transport infrastructure than ever and are
    planning more. Some people do fine without cars.

    There is no conspiracy to shape our transportation systems. Companies
    and (sometimes) governments do what people want.

    --

    John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc trk

    The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
    "Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue May 31 08:34:27 2022
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:09:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 1:09 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 9:13:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs
    of London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk." >> Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    For someone espousing some kind of green revolution you sure know how to >> give lots of people who might otherwise be interested the big fuck you
    from the window of ya luxury car..

    Well, how about a big "fuck you" here, instead? Is that what you think when you see someone driving a BEV, they are saying "fuck you"? What was I saying when I drove the same pickup truck for 20 years?

    I don't really have a reason to say "fuck you" to you, personally. But I am happy to say "fuck you" to Google, who keeps making the usenet experience worse every time they change things. Not entirely unlike Tesla fixing things in the UI which aren't
    broken.

    I think there should be a birthright to a lot of things in the so-called "Greatest Country" in the world. Right to nutritious food to eat, a
    place to live, affordable healthcare, an education, the right to not be gunned down by some whack job while trying to get said education, the
    list goes on.

    And if transportation is required to get any of those other things then
    yeah there should be a right to affordable transportation, also.

    But, far from being the "Greatest Country" (more like a shithole
    country) people will tell you its the greatest country while meanwhile saying that as citizen of said greatest country you don't have a right
    to shit. Might be funny, if it weren't so sad..
    "if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass,
    we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation."
    Who's "we"? If a gas-burner is what someone is currently using to approximate their right-to-transportation such that they can afford it
    what should they do differently. Buy a BEV they can't afford? You gonna
    pay for it? Elon Musk gonna pay for it?

    Elon Musk doesn't give a fuck if any particular person can get to the grocery store or not.

    Sorry that you are not able to understand what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about prying cold, dead hands off steering wheels. I guess you have an ICE reaction like some people have when trying to discuss gun control. No one is trying to take
    your guns, but we want to have more controls over who can buy them.

    Likewise, with BEVs, no one is going to be forced to give up any vehicles. But we can't continue to keep making the same nasty, pollution machines that we've driven for the last hundred years. So, at this time, everyone has full choices. Buy and
    drive what you want. In 15 or so years, some jurisdictions will, in the interest of the greater good (as is not at all uncommon), there will be restrictions on what is sold, but none on what is driven. I don't personally see a reason to restrict what
    is driven, other than the typical safety based restrictions. ICE will surely fade out once the number of gas stations is a small fraction of today. You can't drive what you can't fuel.

    I think most of your rationale comes from the fact that we *have* been driving gas burners for over 100 years, and in spite of what the courts say about it being a "privilege", people like you seem to feel it is a "right". The only difference between
    guns and cars is that cars were not mentioned in the Constitution. Other countries don't have that particular legal precedent, so they are not so fundamental in their objection to restrictions on things that are already restricted.

    Try driving a wood burning car. You won't get far before being pulled over and towed off the highways.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue May 31 09:28:54 2022
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:12:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of
    entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
    poisoned.

    Not true.

    The Victorians also used lead piping for drinking water and were not >poisoned by doing that at all. Only the most acidic soft water off >peatlands will dissolve any lead from water pipes. Most ordinary tap
    water has enough dissolved salts in it that the inside of the pipe furs
    up within the first year of use and no lead then escapes. The very name >"plumber" comes from the usage of lead pipes until very recently.

    The Romans were poisoned by using sugar of lead (aka lead acetate) as an >artificial sweetener. Sweet things were very rare in antiquity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener

    Lots of other food adulteration was going on though since antiquity with >everything from brick dust to arsenic and white lead being used to bulk
    up or colour foodstuffs. This was at its worst in the Victorian era.

    200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and
    suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without
    regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly poisoned. Now,
    all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society
    and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we
    recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth
    and waste.

    Whilst things have improved a lot in the past half century I am not sure >that they will continue to do so. It is cheaper to ignore the problem.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic
    auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the
    planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in,
    not so different from the poisonous fogs of London. Yet, so many of
    us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with
    autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal
    transportation convenience is a birthright!

    Auto emissions are a part of the problem but aircraft and power plant >emissions are also major contributors to global CO2 rise.

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam
    the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most
    poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the existing
    regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very
    importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this
    century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can
    resolve much of the impact of our transport plight, the battery
    electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because
    it is different, with different advantages and different
    liabilities.

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling >various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants. Out
    of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no >downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also >end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

    The main one from my point of view is severe lack of EV range even from >new, an absence of decent charging points outside of major cities and of >spare electricity in the UK with which to charge them. That charging hub >at York still isn't open! They are claiming just a few more days now.
    (It is almost a year late, insanely over budget and cannot meet any of
    its originally claimed pricing - you cannot buy electricity today at the >price that they were intending to sell it for)

    https://yorkmix.com/yorks-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-set-to-open-nearly-a-year-late/

    I'll let you know when/if it actually opens (and if it actually works).

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of
    transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept
    aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of
    land transportation. We would have never known about smog or the
    disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of
    coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the
    convenience of battery powered cars.

    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been >available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a >car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(
    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Absolutely, oil and gas are too valuable to be burnt in cars. Better to save them for other industrial uses. EVs are only half of the solution, but better than none.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Tue May 31 10:14:05 2022
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 2:52:31 PM UTC, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-31 01:05, Rich S wrote:
    [...] We really need "inoculation" at a young age to be
    critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
    regards, rs

    Disagree. Ideas drilled into you at a young age are
    uncritically accepted as beliefs. Critical thinking
    comes later. Weak logic and cognitive fallacies are
    of all ages, but advanced education helps, even if
    it's no panacea.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I agree, partially, Jeroen. To me "young" is as "old" as 18 y.o.
    :-) Anyway, I hypothesize, we (educators in U.S., in particular)
    generally underestimate the age at which the brain
    can begin to think critically. True, you don't want the
    students to be disruptive, and begin challenging everything
    being taught. But if we (in U.S.) are treating 18 y.o. as an
    adult, legally, with some serious responsibilities and decisions
    (that affect them, me, and everyone around them)
    then we better prepare them accordingly. Unfortunately
    the source for this preparation is increasingly dependent
    of the public schools.
    regards, RS

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue May 31 14:00:41 2022
    On 5/31/2022 11:05 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 30 May 2022 21:13:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of
    London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    Bicycles, trains, steamboats, tractors, busses, cars, airplanes, and
    electric unicycles just followed the trend.

    Here we have more public transport infrastructure than ever and are
    planning more. Some people do fine without cars.

    Trolleys and light rail used to be an integral part of urban life, now
    they tend to be amenities. That is to say planners tend not to build out
    light rail to make bad neighborhoods better, but good neighborhoods
    amazing; once there's a rail connection you can charge $3400 for a
    two-bedroom apartment in this neighborhood instead of $1800.

    There is no conspiracy to shape our transportation systems. Companies
    and (sometimes) governments do what people want.

    Urban planners wanted to build an inner beltway called 695 in Boston
    that would've sliced through and cut up by eminent domain a number of
    the kind of classy old neighborhoods hipsters like to pay a premium to
    live in these days, and also extend I-95 right up to the city center
    through the same kind of 'hoods, instead of terminating it in the 128
    beltway about 20 miles south of the city center as does now.

    And it would've happened if there hadn't been a massive outcry about it
    at the time to knock it off. The people got a compromised highway system
    but it was more in a bottom-up kind of screaming at government &
    corporate interests to stop kind of way, than any kind of top-down sense
    of planning for the common good.

    That is to say in the US companies and governments tend do what "the
    people" want if you define "the people" as "the people with the most money."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue May 31 13:37:01 2022
    On 5/31/2022 11:34 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:09:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 1:09 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 9:13:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs
    of London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk." >>>> Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    For someone espousing some kind of green revolution you sure know how to >>>> give lots of people who might otherwise be interested the big fuck you >>>> from the window of ya luxury car..

    Well, how about a big "fuck you" here, instead? Is that what you think when you see someone driving a BEV, they are saying "fuck you"? What was I saying when I drove the same pickup truck for 20 years?

    I don't really have a reason to say "fuck you" to you, personally. But I am happy to say "fuck you" to Google, who keeps making the usenet experience worse every time they change things. Not entirely unlike Tesla fixing things in the UI which aren't
    broken.

    I think there should be a birthright to a lot of things in the so-called
    "Greatest Country" in the world. Right to nutritious food to eat, a
    place to live, affordable healthcare, an education, the right to not be
    gunned down by some whack job while trying to get said education, the
    list goes on.

    And if transportation is required to get any of those other things then
    yeah there should be a right to affordable transportation, also.

    But, far from being the "Greatest Country" (more like a shithole
    country) people will tell you its the greatest country while meanwhile
    saying that as citizen of said greatest country you don't have a right
    to shit. Might be funny, if it weren't so sad..
    "if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass,
    we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation."
    Who's "we"? If a gas-burner is what someone is currently using to
    approximate their right-to-transportation such that they can afford it
    what should they do differently. Buy a BEV they can't afford? You gonna
    pay for it? Elon Musk gonna pay for it?

    Elon Musk doesn't give a fuck if any particular person can get to the
    grocery store or not.

    Sorry that you are not able to understand what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about prying cold, dead hands off steering wheels. I guess you have an ICE reaction like some people have when trying to discuss gun control. No one is trying to take
    your guns, but we want to have more controls over who can buy them.

    I don't own any guns. But the gun control hoopla is something both
    factions in the US tend to get wrapped up in while ignoring the entirely
    more relevant point that the US has a peculiarly violent culture made up
    of large numbers of peculiarly violent and self-centered people, and
    that can't be changed in a day by legislation or the Supreme Court.

    Most intelligent people can see that with estimated 400 million guns
    already in circulation whether there are 300 or 500 or what the number
    is precisely probably doesn't matter too much once you're into the nine figures.

    It's just something people like to squabble about & accomplishes nothing
    but it feels good to squabble about after every mass shooting because it
    feels like _some_ kind of song and dance needs to occur instead of
    nothing, "mission accomplished."

    Likewise, with BEVs, no one is going to be forced to give up any vehicles. But we can't continue to keep making the same nasty, pollution machines that we've driven for the last hundred years. So, at this time, everyone has full choices. Buy and
    drive what you want. In 15 or so years, some jurisdictions will, in the interest of the greater good (as is not at all uncommon), there will be restrictions on what is sold, but none on what is driven. I don't personally see a reason to restrict what
    is driven, other than the typical safety based restrictions. ICE will surely fade out once the number of gas stations is a small fraction of today. You can't drive what you can't fuel.

    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd
    offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    But the US government whether Democrat or Republican cares about
    neither. Joe Biden has even been known to exclaim "When in God's name
    will we stand up to the gun lobby?" like he forgets who the leader of
    the so-called Free World is, sometimes. He probably does.

    I think most of your rationale comes from the fact that we *have* been driving gas burners for over 100 years, and in spite of what the courts say about it being a "privilege", people like you seem to feel it is a "right". The only difference between
    guns and cars is that cars were not mentioned in the Constitution. Other countries don't have that particular legal precedent, so they are not so fundamental in their objection to restrictions on things that are already restricted.

    For most of US history a 2nd Amendment interpreted to mean "a personal
    right to bear arms" was never codified, and that the "shall not be
    infringed" part applied to anyone but the Federal government was not
    clear either, these things were only clarified by the Supreme Court very recently (and with a lot of work put in by the NRA etc. cajoling them in
    that direction.)

    That is to say that firearms were regularly restricted and this was
    understood to be entirely congruent with the Constitution throughout the
    bulk of US history is no big deal to these "strict textualists" and you
    can rewrite that but that abortion was restricted for the bulk of US
    history is somehow a matter of great importance that has to be respected
    from a historical perspective. /shrug

    Personally I think Supreme Court justices tend to be paid hoes, prove me
    wrong.

    Try driving a wood burning car. You won't get far before being pulled over and towed off the highways.


    Cars are a pretty poor solution to getting large numbers of people where
    they need to be in general, and the electrified self-driving kind are a typically American over-complicated solution-looking-for-a-problem.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Tue May 31 14:13:59 2022
    On 5/31/2022 7:52 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-31 01:05, Rich S wrote:
    [...] We really need "inoculation" at a young age to be
    critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
    regards, rs

    Disagree. Ideas drilled into you at a young age are
    uncritically accepted as beliefs. Critical thinking
    comes later.

    Much of that depends on the exposure the individual
    is given to "alternative ideas" as well as their inherent
    personality; some folks don't *like* re-examining
    their "beliefs" (and, for those folks, this often
    persists through adulthood to death)

    Weak logic and cognitive fallacies are
    of all ages, but advanced education helps, even if
    it's no panacea.

    Being *in* an environment where you are exposed to alternatives
    goes a long way, even if that exposure isn't via "structured
    learning".

    But, again, if your mind is closed to other possibilities,
    you'll find a way of dismissing even those alternatives.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue May 31 14:30:51 2022
    On Tue, 31 May 2022 14:00:41 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 11:05 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 30 May 2022 21:13:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly
    poisoned. Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs
    of London. Yet, so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the
    existing regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can resolve much of the impact of our transport
    plight, the battery electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply because it is different, with different advantages and different liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of land transportation. We would have never known
    about smog or the disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount! Convenience ber alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to walk." >>>
    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    San Francisco is a nightmare. In some neighborhoods the streers follow
    the contours of the hills. Some places are brutally rectangular,
    topography be damned. Some streets just change name for no reason,
    some look like dotted lines, come and go at random.

    This is fun, St Mary's Park.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mhmlrn456unoto/St_Marys_Park.jpg?raw=1

    It's amazing that all the houses were built on hillsides, streets with
    30% grades, using horses and people to haul wood and bricks.


    Bicycles, trains, steamboats, tractors, busses, cars, airplanes, and
    electric unicycles just followed the trend.

    Here we have more public transport infrastructure than ever and are
    planning more. Some people do fine without cars.

    Trolleys and light rail used to be an integral part of urban life, now
    they tend to be amenities. That is to say planners tend not to build out >light rail to make bad neighborhoods better, but good neighborhoods
    amazing; once there's a rail connection you can charge $3400 for a >two-bedroom apartment in this neighborhood instead of $1800.

    There is no conspiracy to shape our transportation systems. Companies
    and (sometimes) governments do what people want.

    Urban planners wanted to build an inner beltway called 695 in Boston
    that would've sliced through and cut up by eminent domain a number of
    the kind of classy old neighborhoods hipsters like to pay a premium to
    live in these days, and also extend I-95 right up to the city center
    through the same kind of 'hoods, instead of terminating it in the 128
    beltway about 20 miles south of the city center as does now.

    And it would've happened if there hadn't been a massive outcry about it
    at the time to knock it off. The people got a compromised highway system
    but it was more in a bottom-up kind of screaming at government &
    corporate interests to stop kind of way, than any kind of top-down sense
    of planning for the common good.

    That is to say in the US companies and governments tend do what "the
    people" want if you define "the people" as "the people with the most money."




    300 million people have the most money.

    --

    John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc trk

    The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
    "Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Rich S on Tue May 31 14:26:14 2022
    On 5/31/2022 10:14 AM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 2:52:31 PM UTC, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-31 01:05, Rich S wrote:
    [...] We really need "inoculation" at a young age to be
    critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
    regards, rs

    Disagree. Ideas drilled into you at a young age are
    uncritically accepted as beliefs. Critical thinking
    comes later. Weak logic and cognitive fallacies are
    of all ages, but advanced education helps, even if
    it's no panacea.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I agree, partially, Jeroen. To me "young" is as "old" as 18 y.o.
    :-) Anyway, I hypothesize, we (educators in U.S., in particular)
    generally underestimate the age at which the brain
    can begin to think critically. True, you don't want the
    students to be disruptive, and begin challenging everything
    being taught.

    You can encourage "free thought" without inviting outright
    challenges to (ahem) "dogma".

    Even activities like "choosing a science fair project"
    require some initiative on the part of the student;
    what do you want to do and what do you expect to show, etc.

    But if we (in U.S.) are treating 18 y.o. as an
    adult, legally, with some serious responsibilities and decisions
    (that affect them, me, and everyone around them)
    then we better prepare them accordingly. Unfortunately
    the source for this preparation is increasingly dependent
    of the public schools.

    And, "know-better" legislators want to lay a heavy hand on WHAT
    they can be exposed to and, by extension, be able to "think for
    themselves" about.

    Imagine a whole class of people terrified of certain *books*
    (likely because you can't SHOOT a book!) or *concepts*...

    Gotta pity the poor children so constrained in their thoughts.
    Wonder what life will be like when they are LATER, exposed to
    people (in positions of power/influence) who espouse DIFFERENT
    "beliefs"?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com on Tue May 31 19:02:49 2022
    On Tue, 31 May 2022 14:30:51 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    ...
    This is fun, St Mary's Park.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mhmlrn456unoto/St_Marys_Park.jpg?raw=1

    It's amazing that all the houses were built on hillsides, streets with
    30% grades, using horses and people to haul wood and bricks.

    I just came back from Portugal. Here is a historical example of just
    that:

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto#/media/File:Ribera_area_along_the_river_Duoro,_Porto,_Portugal,_2019.jpg>


    The whole Douro River is like that, only vineyards not buildings. Lots
    of olive and almond trees as well. The slopes often exceed 30%, and
    it's mostly to all hand work.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Rio_Douro_-_Portugal_(32615481975)_(cropped).jpg>

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Douro_Valley_Regua.jpg>


    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Tue May 31 19:09:39 2022
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 12:28:59 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
    Absolutely, oil and gas are too valuable to be burnt in cars. Better to save them for other industrial uses. EVs are only half of the solution, but better than none.

    Yes, it's much more important to save oil and gas so we can make the shrink wrap for all the things we buy in Costco!

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue May 31 20:57:55 2022
    On 05/31/2022 11:37 AM, bitrex wrote:
    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    Cash for Clunkers? That worked so well. It was a windfall for people who
    could afford a new car which they probably would have bought anyway. It
    raised the price of used cars screwing the people who couldn't afford
    going up-market and hurt the charitable donation programs. At the end of
    the day there was a very minor increase in fuel economy.

    As irony, my '86 pickup which has a very rudimentary ECU and couldn't
    pass a CA smog test on a bet wasn't eligible -- it was too old.

    Would the firearms program mean I could trade in my 80 year old bolt
    action rifle for a shiny new AR?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue May 31 19:20:32 2022
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 1:37:10 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:34 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:09:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

    Elon Musk doesn't give a fuck if any particular person can get to the
    grocery store or not.

    Sorry that you are not able to understand what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about prying cold, dead hands off steering wheels. I guess you have an ICE reaction like some people have when trying to discuss gun control. No one is trying to take
    your guns, but we want to have more controls over who can buy them.
    I don't own any guns. But the gun control hoopla is something both
    factions in the US tend to get wrapped up in while ignoring the entirely more relevant point that the US has a peculiarly violent culture made up
    of large numbers of peculiarly violent and self-centered people, and
    that can't be changed in a day by legislation or the Supreme Court.

    Most intelligent people can see that with estimated 400 million guns
    already in circulation whether there are 300 or 500 or what the number
    is precisely probably doesn't matter too much once you're into the nine figures.

    It's just something people like to squabble about & accomplishes nothing
    but it feels good to squabble about after every mass shooting because it feels like _some_ kind of song and dance needs to occur instead of
    nothing, "mission accomplished."

    It is a bit humorous that you think there is no value to restricting the sale of guns. If it really does not matter if we restrict guns since there are multiple weapons for every man, woman and child in the US, then why do so many shooters buy the gun
    they shoot with rather than using one of the many, many already out there? Why do guns continue to be bought? Clearly, someone is hoarding all the guns and not letting everyone have their fair share! That's the cause of all the trouble. People aren't
    willing to share. Selfish bastards!


    Likewise, with BEVs, no one is going to be forced to give up any vehicles. But we can't continue to keep making the same nasty, pollution machines that we've driven for the last hundred years. So, at this time, everyone has full choices. Buy and
    drive what you want. In 15 or so years, some jurisdictions will, in the interest of the greater good (as is not at all uncommon), there will be restrictions on what is sold, but none on what is driven. I don't personally see a reason to restrict what is
    driven, other than the typical safety based restrictions. ICE will surely fade out once the number of gas stations is a small fraction of today. You can't drive what you can't fuel.
    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    There's no need to buy them back. They will be scrapped soon enough. Beside, there aren't enough guns... I mean BEVs available for everyone to scrap their ICE right now. We can exchange ICE for BEVs 17,000,000 a year. But then, you know that. You
    just like being silly. A person would think you were on a late night talk show. Or maybe you've bought Merv Griffin's set and are trying to boost ratings?


    But the US government whether Democrat or Republican cares about
    neither. Joe Biden has even been known to exclaim "When in God's name
    will we stand up to the gun lobby?" like he forgets who the leader of
    the so-called Free World is, sometimes. He probably does.
    I think most of your rationale comes from the fact that we *have* been driving gas burners for over 100 years, and in spite of what the courts say about it being a "privilege", people like you seem to feel it is a "right". The only difference between
    guns and cars is that cars were not mentioned in the Constitution. Other countries don't have that particular legal precedent, so they are not so fundamental in their objection to restrictions on things that are already restricted.
    For most of US history a 2nd Amendment interpreted to mean "a personal
    right to bear arms" was never codified, and that the "shall not be infringed" part applied to anyone but the Federal government was not
    clear either, these things were only clarified by the Supreme Court very recently (and with a lot of work put in by the NRA etc. cajoling them in that direction.)

    That is to say that firearms were regularly restricted and this was understood to be entirely congruent with the Constitution throughout the bulk of US history is no big deal to these "strict textualists" and you
    can rewrite that but that abortion was restricted for the bulk of US
    history is somehow a matter of great importance that has to be respected from a historical perspective. /shrug

    Personally I think Supreme Court justices tend to be paid hoes, prove me wrong.

    Yeah, whatever.


    Try driving a wood burning car. You won't get far before being pulled over and towed off the highways.

    Cars are a pretty poor solution to getting large numbers of people where they need to be in general, and the electrified self-driving kind are a typically American over-complicated solution-looking-for-a-problem.

    Nothing that can be shoved into a cell phone sized computer can be called "complicated", unless you are talking about virtually every appliance known to man. But BEVs don't need to be self driving. They just need to be BEVs.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue May 31 20:40:55 2022
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:05 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 30 May 2022 21:13:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of
    entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
    poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and
    suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without
    regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly poisoned.
    Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our
    society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even
    money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an
    environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of
    toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature
    of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we
    live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of London. Yet,
    so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In
    particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for
    our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam
    the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most
    poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the existing
    regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very
    importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this
    century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can
    resolve much of the impact of our transport plight, the battery
    electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply
    because it is different, with different advantages and different
    liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of
    transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept
    aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of
    land transportation. We would have never known about smog or the
    disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of
    coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the
    convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue May 31 20:27:32 2022
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay really was a bay
    and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night and park the
    car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit
    *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 03:58:06 2022
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    That is to say that firearms were regularly restricted and this was understood to be entirely congruent with the Constitution throughout the
    bulk of US history

    Nope. One of the fake arguments like that is about concealed carry being restricted. What they don't tell you is that open carry was allowed at those times.

    Just like every other government, power is gradually taken away from the people. That includes ever-increasing restrictions on firearms.

    that abortion was restricted for the bulk of US
    history is somehow a matter of great importance that has to be respected
    from a historical perspective.

    That's propaganda. The Supreme Court's recent decision does NOTHING to
    restrict abortion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue May 31 23:00:07 2022
    On 05/31/2022 09:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    https://globecharting.com/borders/rose-park-missoula-behind-the-slant-street-neighborhood/

    The full story is even juicier. Bickford and Stephens, two lawyers,
    platted 'South Missoula' parallel to the wagon road. Judge Knowles, who
    had no love for either lawyer owned the land between their holding and
    the river. In the west the land is divided into sections of 640 acres
    and the Judge made the argument that it was more appropriate to lay out
    the streets parallel to the section lines. The Higgins Ave. bridge, now
    to be called the Bearpaws Bridge if they ever finish the project, needed replacing. Higgins, another prime mover, sided with the judge so the
    bridge connects directly to South Higgins, which is parallel to the
    section line and is the eastern edge of the slants.


    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    If you're patient... The evening hours have sparse service. One company
    I worked for was on Memorial Dr. near Western and I had an apartment in Allston. Walking was faster than messing with public transportation.
    Another time I lived in Somerville on Winter Hill and if I did anything
    in the evening in Boston or Cambridge walking was much faster. I guess
    the Green Line finally got there. Ditto when I lived on Beacon Hill and
    was working at the old Schrafft factory in Sullivan Square.

    Sometimes I'd go exploring and take the Green Line out to Cleveland
    Circle or another terminus and walk back but I never depended on it for transportation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 1 02:47:00 2022
    On 5/31/2022 10:20 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 1:37:10 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:34 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:09:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

    Elon Musk doesn't give a fuck if any particular person can get to the
    grocery store or not.

    Sorry that you are not able to understand what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about prying cold, dead hands off steering wheels. I guess you have an ICE reaction like some people have when trying to discuss gun control. No one is trying to take
    your guns, but we want to have more controls over who can buy them.
    I don't own any guns. But the gun control hoopla is something both
    factions in the US tend to get wrapped up in while ignoring the entirely
    more relevant point that the US has a peculiarly violent culture made up
    of large numbers of peculiarly violent and self-centered people, and
    that can't be changed in a day by legislation or the Supreme Court.

    Most intelligent people can see that with estimated 400 million guns
    already in circulation whether there are 300 or 500 or what the number
    is precisely probably doesn't matter too much once you're into the nine
    figures.

    It's just something people like to squabble about & accomplishes nothing
    but it feels good to squabble about after every mass shooting because it
    feels like _some_ kind of song and dance needs to occur instead of
    nothing, "mission accomplished."

    It is a bit humorous that you think there is no value to restricting the sale of guns. If it really does not matter if we restrict guns since there are multiple weapons for every man, woman and child in the US, then why do so many shooters buy the gun
    they shoot with rather than using one of the many, many already out there? Why do guns continue to be bought? Clearly, someone is hoarding all the guns and not letting everyone have their fair share! That's the cause of all the trouble. People aren't
    willing to share. Selfish bastards!
    I didn't say there was no value. Gun sales are already restricted to
    some degree or another everywhere in the US, but in many of those places
    the laws that are on the books aren't enforced that well to begin with.
    Gun owners seem to be pretty much universally in favor of universal
    background checks and restricting sale to felons, people considered
    dangerously mentally ill, etc.

    But as for singling out certain guns for special treatment, with 400
    million of all types in circulation, yeah, I think it's a bit late to
    hope turning off a small part of the tap will help much.

    And the mass shooter who buys their guns only a few days before their
    shooting is somewhat uncommon, most have already owned guns or had them available for months or years. These people aren't mass shooters until
    they pull the trigger, if they acquired their guns legally they're just
    "legal gun owners" before that, same as any other, and the guns they own
    are just part of the set of "the many out there" same as anyone else's.

    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd
    offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    There's no need to buy them back. They will be scrapped soon enough. Beside, there aren't enough guns... I mean BEVs available for everyone to scrap their ICE right now. We can exchange ICE for BEVs 17,000,000 a year. But then, you know that. You
    just like being silly. A person would think you were on a late night talk show. Or maybe you've bought Merv Griffin's set and are trying to boost ratings?

    Last I checked new cars are only getting more expensive and BEVs tend to
    be more expensive than most. Is this a trend you foresee as changing? I
    can't say I'm confident this will change anytime soon. Meanwhile 50% of
    the population is dead broke, 25% is afraid of ending up that way and
    the other 25% doesn't have a big problem with paying for $5 gas.

    <https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134702_americans-dont-want-ev-yet-half-wont-pay-extra-for-electrified>

    5% saw their next vehicle being an EV, the financial incentives to pull
    the trigger aren't that great.

    Like being silly? No I think there's been a concerted effort by
    government and industry to push climate change off on the individual and
    make it one more bullshit Puritan personal-responsibility kind of thing,
    like you'd better go buy one now or you're a bad person, while those
    guys fuck around like business-as-usual and the US military dumps more
    CO2 into the atmosphere each year than all personal cars combined, and
    we send $50 billion for guns to Ukraine for a war that can't be won,
    like that's good for the planet.

    So yeah a big "fuck you" from Joe Consumer in response to some guilt
    trip about his personal car-buying choices is totally understandable.
    Let some of the fat cats get off their fat asses and do something if
    they care so much (they don't.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 03:06:10 2022
    On 6/1/2022 2:47 AM, bitrex wrote:

    5% saw their next vehicle being an EV, the financial incentives to pull
    the trigger aren't that great.

    Like being silly? No I think there's been a concerted effort by
    government and industry to push climate change off on the individual and
    make it one more bullshit Puritan personal-responsibility kind of thing,
    like you'd better go buy one now or you're a bad person, while those
    guys fuck around like business-as-usual and the US military dumps more
    CO2 into the atmosphere each year than all personal cars combined

    Correction, that's too high. About 100 million metric tons for the
    military vs 600 million metric tons for all _passenger_ vehicles
    including light trucks and SUVs, IDK what it is if you exclude light
    trucks and SUVs.

    I bet the military does give just personal "cars" like all sedans in the
    US a run for their money, though..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 00:29:53 2022
    On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 2:47:10 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:20 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 1:37:10 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:34 AM, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:09:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

    Elon Musk doesn't give a fuck if any particular person can get to the >>>> grocery store or not.

    Sorry that you are not able to understand what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about prying cold, dead hands off steering wheels. I guess you have an ICE reaction like some people have when trying to discuss gun control. No one is trying to
    take your guns, but we want to have more controls over who can buy them.
    I don't own any guns. But the gun control hoopla is something both
    factions in the US tend to get wrapped up in while ignoring the entirely >> more relevant point that the US has a peculiarly violent culture made up >> of large numbers of peculiarly violent and self-centered people, and
    that can't be changed in a day by legislation or the Supreme Court.

    Most intelligent people can see that with estimated 400 million guns
    already in circulation whether there are 300 or 500 or what the number
    is precisely probably doesn't matter too much once you're into the nine >> figures.

    It's just something people like to squabble about & accomplishes nothing >> but it feels good to squabble about after every mass shooting because it >> feels like _some_ kind of song and dance needs to occur instead of
    nothing, "mission accomplished."

    It is a bit humorous that you think there is no value to restricting the sale of guns. If it really does not matter if we restrict guns since there are multiple weapons for every man, woman and child in the US, then why do so many shooters buy the
    gun they shoot with rather than using one of the many, many already out there? Why do guns continue to be bought? Clearly, someone is hoarding all the guns and not letting everyone have their fair share! That's the cause of all the trouble. People aren't
    willing to share. Selfish bastards!
    I didn't say there was no value. Gun sales are already restricted to
    some degree or another everywhere in the US, but in many of those places
    the laws that are on the books aren't enforced that well to begin with.
    Gun owners seem to be pretty much universally in favor of universal background checks and restricting sale to felons, people considered dangerously mentally ill, etc.

    But as for singling out certain guns for special treatment, with 400
    million of all types in circulation, yeah, I think it's a bit late to
    hope turning off a small part of the tap will help much.

    And the mass shooter who buys their guns only a few days before their shooting is somewhat uncommon, most have already owned guns or had them available for months or years. These people aren't mass shooters until
    they pull the trigger, if they acquired their guns legally they're just "legal gun owners" before that, same as any other, and the guns they own
    are just part of the set of "the many out there" same as anyone else's.

    No one is a mass shooter until the pull the trigger. You miss the point. They did not have any weapons until they bought them. So clearly, the point of purchasing a gun is a great opportunity to prevent potentially dangerous people from getting their
    hands on them. In many cases, these guys would set off alarm bells easily.

    As an analogy, there are 250 million cars in the US, yet you can't get a drivers license without passing a test or below a certain age, having training. Is that too much to impose on people for having guns? Hell, in the waters of Washington, D.C. I can'
    t paddle a kayak without a license.

    You can throw up your hands and say "we can't do it", but that's just pure bullshit defeatism. We can have an impact and there's zero reason to not do it.

    The idea of people "buying their guns legally" is the whole point. We need to be more strict about who can buy weapons. I think anyone of age to be in high school is too young.


    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd >> offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    There's no need to buy them back. They will be scrapped soon enough. Beside, there aren't enough guns... I mean BEVs available for everyone to scrap their ICE right now. We can exchange ICE for BEVs 17,000,000 a year. But then, you know that. You
    just like being silly. A person would think you were on a late night talk show. Or maybe you've bought Merv Griffin's set and are trying to boost ratings?
    Last I checked new cars are only getting more expensive and BEVs tend to
    be more expensive than most. Is this a trend you foresee as changing? I can't say I'm confident this will change anytime soon. Meanwhile 50% of
    the population is dead broke, 25% is afraid of ending up that way and
    the other 25% doesn't have a big problem with paying for $5 gas.

    I've heard that 87.4% of all statistics are made up! Yeah, when you make up your own statistics, you can prove anything you want.


    <https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134702_americans-dont-want-ev-yet-half-wont-pay-extra-for-electrified>

    5% saw their next vehicle being an EV, the financial incentives to pull
    the trigger aren't that great.

    You are ignorant of the facts. BEVs are selling, limited only by how fast they can make them, literally! Tesla has a months long waiting list. Instead of trying to promote BEVs by selling a lower end model, they've dropped all the cheaper versions,
    yet people are pounding on their doors with cash in hand! There's nothing you can say about people not wanting to drive BEVs.


    Like being silly? No I think there's been a concerted effort by
    government and industry to push climate change off on the individual and make it one more bullshit Puritan personal-responsibility kind of thing, like you'd better go buy one now or you're a bad person, while those
    guys fuck around like business-as-usual and the US military dumps more
    CO2 into the atmosphere each year than all personal cars combined, and
    we send $50 billion for guns to Ukraine for a war that can't be won,
    like that's good for the planet.

    Funny you put it that way. That's not really thinking in any sense of the word. That's just you creating your own fantasy.


    So yeah a big "fuck you" from Joe Consumer in response to some guilt
    trip about his personal car-buying choices is totally understandable.
    Let some of the fat cats get off their fat asses and do something if
    they care so much (they don't.)

    Nobody is laying a guilt trip on anyone else. Drive what you want. Give it a bit of time and your only choice will be BEV or drive 10 miles to find a gas station. Not too long after that, your gasoline will have a $5 a gallon tax, like in the EU. So
    it will be selling for $15 a gal. Drive all you want! I don't give a damn. You will be 1 in 100 and will be purely irrelevant.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 1 03:26:59 2022
    On 5/31/2022 10:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 11:37 AM, bitrex wrote:
    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd
    offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    Cash for Clunkers? That worked so well. It was a windfall for people who could afford a new car which they probably would have bought anyway. It raised the price of used cars screwing the people who couldn't afford
    going up-market and hurt the charitable donation programs. At the end of
    the day there was a very minor increase in fuel economy.

    It was to stimulate the economy by pulling ahead spending, not start
    some green revolution. Obama the "Droner-in-Chief" was too busy blowing
    up peasant families in the Middle East for much of his tenure to really
    do much of substance on the environmental front:

    <https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/4/28/15472508/obama-climate-change-legacy-overrated-clean-power>


    As irony, my '86 pickup which has a very rudimentary ECU and couldn't
    pass a CA smog test on a bet wasn't eligible -- it was too old.

    Would the firearms program mean I could trade in my 80 year old bolt
    action rifle for a shiny new AR?


    If you have an 80 year old rifle and an '86 pickup you're not the type
    to trade them in anyway, you are likely an old-junk hoarder like Sanford
    & Son, saving rusty screws in a jar too.

    <https://youtu.be/FUjWYm8bh8U>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 03:29:24 2022
    On 6/1/2022 3:26 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 11:37 AM, bitrex wrote:
    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd >>> offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    Cash for Clunkers? That worked so well. It was a windfall for people
    who could afford a new car which they probably would have bought
    anyway. It raised the price of used cars screwing the people who
    couldn't afford going up-market and hurt the charitable donation
    programs. At the end of the day there was a very minor increase in
    fuel economy.

    It was to stimulate the economy by pulling ahead spending, not start
    some green revolution. Obama the "Droner-in-Chief" was too busy blowing
    up peasant families in the Middle East for much of his tenure to really
    do much of substance on the environmental front:

    <https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/4/28/15472508/obama-climate-change-legacy-overrated-clean-power>

    They gave him the Nobel Peace prize and then he went on to blow up
    several thousand innocent peasants. "Mission Accomplished!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 1 04:08:50 2022
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
    the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday
    night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other livery services abound.  Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense.  E.g., the core metro area would fit *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
    nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 02:11:22 2022
    On 6/1/2022 1:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide >> that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay really >>> was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone when they >>> dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night and >>> park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit
    *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a nightmare
    when the system isn't having a good day

    I don't think you understand how "nightmarish" public transit can be ALL
    of the time!

    E.g., my most common drive is to my volunteer gig. It's about 20 minnutes
    in a private vehicle.

    If I had to rely on public transit (busses, here), it would mean a 1.25 mile walk to the bus stop -- hopefully timed to arrive just before a bus departs
    on the route in which I'm interested.

    Then, a 22 minute (per their schedule) drive to another stop -- where I'd
    wait ~20 minutes (assuming all is going well!) for my connection. Then, a
    5 minute drive to the final stop. And a half mile walk to the destination.

    At my 4MPH walking pace, that's ~25 minutes on foot plus 27 minutes on wheels. Almost three times longer than my "drive WHEN it is convenient for me to do so" approach. And, having to deal with *sharing* the vehicle with "others"...

    [And, who knows how I would drag any rescued kit home via the busline!]

    Of course, I have no idea what the MTA is like, now as it's been decades
    since I've been there. And, I've not a clue as to how Big Dig is mucking
    with surface transportation...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 1 01:37:56 2022
    On 5/31/2022 10:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 09:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    https://globecharting.com/borders/rose-park-missoula-behind-the-slant-street-neighborhood/

    The full story is even juicier. Bickford and Stephens, two lawyers, platted 'South Missoula' parallel to the wagon road. Judge Knowles, who had no love for
    either lawyer owned the land between their holding and the river. In the west the land is divided into sections of 640 acres and the Judge made the argument
    that it was more appropriate to lay out the streets parallel to the section lines. The Higgins Ave. bridge, now to be called the Bearpaws Bridge if they ever finish the project, needed replacing. Higgins, another prime mover, sided
    with the judge so the bridge connects directly to South Higgins, which is parallel to the section line and is the eastern edge of the slants.

    Roads in the west (and to a lesser extent, the midwest) at least tend to be laid out to *some* sort of plan. And, often have *some* sort of naming convention that can assist the driver/navigator.

    [Of course, you have roads like Wacker Dr that exists with N, S, E & W addresses. As well as "upper", "lower" and "lower lower" modifiers :-/ ]

    And, tend to be considerably *longer* within a given domain (e.g., Western
    Ave is ~30 miles *in* the city's limits).

    OTOH, it was nice (East) to be able to get on TownB Rd, in TownA,
    and know that it would get you *to* TownB (at which point, the road
    would be renamed TownA Rd, curiously :> )

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    If you're patient... The evening hours have sparse service.

    Patience is relative. Here (AZ), many routes run *hourly*. Heaven help
    the fool who misses a connection! I'm sure there's nothing after 11P
    (which kinda puts a damper in using it after a night on the town!)

    And, stops are relatively far apart and outside the residential
    neighborhoods. So, a fair bit of walking to get *to* a stop
    and then a fair bit to get *from* the stop.

    One company I
    worked for was on Memorial Dr. near Western and I had an apartment in Allston.
    Walking was faster than messing with public transportation. Another time I lived in Somerville on Winter Hill and if I did anything in the evening in Boston or Cambridge walking was much faster. I guess the Green Line finally got
    there. Ditto when I lived on Beacon Hill and was working at the old Schrafft factory in Sullivan Square.

    But the distances are relatively short. E.g., I could walk from The Zone to Park St or Charles St stations in almost the same amount of time -- considering a T at Park St would end up bringing me *to* Charles St whereas walking would get me there directly. :<

    Or, Central Sq to CSDL in about the same time as from Kendall Sq.

    Sometimes I'd go exploring and take the Green Line out to Cleveland Circle or another terminus and walk back but I never depended on it for transportation.

    I only found a car "useful" when driving out of the metro area... work in Westwood, trips out to Maynard, Methuen, etc. Visiting a cousin at BC was considerably less effort by car vs. T.

    OTOH, *storing* a car was always tedious -- esp if you didn't have a driveway or parking area set aside for your use (on both ends of the trip).

    [I recall stashing the car in Stark Raving's garage the evening before the `78 blizzard; a truly fortuitous decision! :> ]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 10:05:51 2022
    On 6/1/2022 10:03 AM, bitrex wrote:

    Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to
    South Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or
    taxi at all my adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop,
    then a 50 minute bus ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.

    Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and longer train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up suggesting a trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the
    same trip would take me 45 minutes tops

    At the absolute peak of weekday rush hour it might take an hour.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 06:30:35 2022
    On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 4:09:00 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
    the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday
    night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit *in* the city limits of Chicago.
    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    Isn't that true for all transportation in cities? I know DC traffic has no upper limit for ETA.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 1 10:03:43 2022
    On 6/1/2022 5:11 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 1:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
    pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
    Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
    got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
    fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
    the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH
    Sunday night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home
    Friday afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound.  Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense.  E.g., the core metro area would
    fit
    *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
    nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    I don't think you understand how "nightmarish" public transit can be ALL
    of the time!

    E.g., my most common drive is to my volunteer gig.  It's about 20 minnutes in a private vehicle.

    If I had to rely on public transit (busses, here), it would mean a 1.25
    mile
    walk to the bus stop -- hopefully timed to arrive just before a bus departs on the route in which I'm interested.

    Then, a 22 minute (per their schedule) drive to another stop -- where I'd wait ~20 minutes (assuming all is going well!) for my connection.  Then, a
    5 minute drive to the final stop.  And a half mile walk to the destination.

    At my 4MPH walking pace, that's ~25 minutes on foot plus 27 minutes on wheels.
    Almost three times longer than my "drive WHEN it is convenient for me to
    do so"
    approach.  And, having to deal with *sharing* the vehicle with "others"...

    [And, who knows how I would drag any rescued kit home via the busline!]

    Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to
    South Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or
    taxi at all my adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop,
    then a 50 minute bus ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.

    Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and
    longer train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up suggesting a trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the
    same trip would take me 45 minutes tops, it's only about 25 miles away I
    don't live _that_ far outside the city.

    But housing closer in within easy striking distance of a light rail
    station tends to command a premium price tag.


    Of course, I have no idea what the MTA is like, now as it's been decades since I've been there.  And, I've not a clue as to how Big Dig is mucking with surface transportation...

    The Big Dig has been done for pushing 20 years and made getting in and
    out of town by car a _lot_ better, but mucked with public transit in
    Boston a lot. A large amount of the debt for that got shoveled off onto
    the MBTA, circa 2010 a quarter of the MBTA's operating budget was spent
    on Big Dig debt service.

    The system was running really threadbare for many years and it came to a
    head in 2014-2015 when the exceptional snowfall of that winter regularly
    ground the subway system to a halt, stuff was massively breaking down
    every week. The average age of a trainset a decade ago was like 32 years
    old or something.

    The joke was the MBTA's general manager Beverly Scott had announced her resignation "before the snow had even stopped falling" which wasn't far
    from the truth.

    As of a few years back they've begun investing more money in track &
    equipment upgrades and they've got several hundred new trainsets built
    in Springfield MA by Chinese state-owned CRRC (grumble grumble), however they're having teething troubles as new trainsets tend to do:

    <https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/05/20/orange-red-line-trains-out-of-service-mbta>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Jun 1 10:24:49 2022
    On 6/1/2022 3:29 AM, Ricky wrote:

    I've heard that 87.4% of all statistics are made up! Yeah, when you make up your own statistics, you can prove anything you want.


    <https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134702_americans-dont-want-ev-yet-half-wont-pay-extra-for-electrified>

    5% saw their next vehicle being an EV, the financial incentives to pull
    the trigger aren't that great.

    You are ignorant of the facts. BEVs are selling, limited only by how fast they can make them, literally! Tesla has a months long waiting list. Instead of trying to promote BEVs by selling a lower end model, they've dropped all the cheaper versions,
    yet people are pounding on their doors with cash in hand! There's nothing you can say about people not wanting to drive BEVs.

    They're selling many other vehicles as fast as they can make them, too,
    prices for new vehicles are up across the board. 250,000 pickup trucks
    get sold every month in the US IIRC that's close to what Tesla sells in
    a year in the US.

    Difference is Tesla buyers may be pounding on Tesla's door cash-in-hand
    but the average pickup buyer doesn't have cash in hand they're taking
    out 72, 84 month loans on those and I expect the number of people who're
    going to default over that timeframe is a lot.

    It hardly seems sustainable just from a financial perspective. But simultaneously the imminent death of the ICE seems exaggerated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 08:20:28 2022
    On 06/01/2022 01:29 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 3:26 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 11:37 AM, bitrex wrote:
    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any >>>> more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation
    it'd
    offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    Cash for Clunkers? That worked so well. It was a windfall for people
    who could afford a new car which they probably would have bought
    anyway. It raised the price of used cars screwing the people who
    couldn't afford going up-market and hurt the charitable donation
    programs. At the end of the day there was a very minor increase in
    fuel economy.

    It was to stimulate the economy by pulling ahead spending, not start
    some green revolution. Obama the "Droner-in-Chief" was too busy
    blowing up peasant families in the Middle East for much of his tenure
    to really do much of substance on the environmental front:

    <https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/4/28/15472508/obama-climate-change-legacy-overrated-clean-power>


    They gave him the Nobel Peace prize and then he went on to blow up
    several thousand innocent peasants. "Mission Accomplished!"


    The was one of the most egregious examples of affirmative action in
    history. Well, maybe since they gave one to Kissinger. It chafes me that
    I finally agree with him on something.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 08:15:38 2022
    On 06/01/2022 01:26 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 11:37 AM, bitrex wrote:
    If the US government cared about getting gas-burners off the roads any
    more than it cares about reducing the number of guns in circulation it'd >>> offer an attractive buy-back/incentive program to encourage people to
    trade them in for a cleaner alternative. Hey you could bring both and
    get double the points towards your purchase.

    Cash for Clunkers? That worked so well. It was a windfall for people
    who could afford a new car which they probably would have bought
    anyway. It raised the price of used cars screwing the people who
    couldn't afford going up-market and hurt the charitable donation
    programs. At the end of the day there was a very minor increase in
    fuel economy.

    It was to stimulate the economy by pulling ahead spending, not start
    some green revolution. Obama the "Droner-in-Chief" was too busy blowing
    up peasant families in the Middle East for much of his tenure to really
    do much of substance on the environmental front:

    <https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/4/28/15472508/obama-climate-change-legacy-overrated-clean-power>


    As irony, my '86 pickup which has a very rudimentary ECU and couldn't
    pass a CA smog test on a bet wasn't eligible -- it was too old.

    Would the firearms program mean I could trade in my 80 year old bolt
    action rifle for a shiny new AR?


    If you have an 80 year old rifle and an '86 pickup you're not the type
    to trade them in anyway, you are likely an old-junk hoarder like Sanford
    & Son, saving rusty screws in a jar too.

    <https://youtu.be/FUjWYm8bh8U>

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp7HYBMee00

    Stuff that works... I still have the Gibson J-45 I bought in '63. The
    fretboard could use a little work but it sounds good. I didn't pay $3000
    for it either.

    The Mosin Nagant works too. Just ask Simo Hayha.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

    The way the Finns are prodding the bear they may need a few guys like him.

    I miss Red Green. That, Austin City Limits, and a few other programs on
    PBS are about my only TV consumption.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 08:25:05 2022
    On 06/01/2022 02:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
    pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
    Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
    got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
    fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
    the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday
    night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit
    *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/as-crews-continue-to-work-on-red-line-derailment-damage-commuters-remain-troubled/114667/

    https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/red-line-service-down-replaced-with-shuttle-bus/2428171/

    https://www.wcvb.com/article/mbta-orange-line-braking-problem-removed-from-service-may-19-2022/40050137

    They can't even buy new trains and get them to work.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 1 10:34:45 2022
    On 6/1/2022 10:25 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/01/2022 02:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
    pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
    Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
    got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
    fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
    the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday
    night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound.  Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense.  E.g., the core metro area would
    fit
    *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
    nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/as-crews-continue-to-work-on-red-line-derailment-damage-commuters-remain-troubled/114667/


    https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/red-line-service-down-replaced-with-shuttle-bus/2428171/


    https://www.wcvb.com/article/mbta-orange-line-braking-problem-removed-from-service-may-19-2022/40050137


    They can't even buy new trains and get them to work.

    The Orange Line in particular will be much improved once they get the
    bugs out, the Hawker Siddeley cars are almost as old as I am but haven't
    aged nearly as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Wed Jun 1 11:32:30 2022
    On 5/30/2022 7:36 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

    <snip>

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
    various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

    It can be be. It doesn't have to be.

    Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is entirely independent.

    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
    available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
    car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    Battery cars were popular early on. There weren't many of them so they were just as expensive as petrol cars.

    EVs have proved difficult to mass produce economically.

    Twaddle.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(

    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available>


    This is a real person with actual power in the US government:

    <https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1531024532231839744>

    “They want to know when you are eating,” she said, 'they want to know if you are eating a cheeseburger which is very bad because Bill Gates wants
    you to eat his fake meat that grows in a peach tree [sic] dish.'"

    So while we might not have to revert to the Middle Ages, there's a
    pretty good chance we will.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 1 11:23:27 2022
    On 5/31/2022 5:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:14 AM, Rich S wrote:
    On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 2:52:31 PM UTC, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-31 01:05, Rich S wrote:
    [...] We really need "inoculation" at a young age to be
    critical thinkers. What schooling & parenting should be...
    regards, rs

    Disagree. Ideas drilled into you at a young age are
    uncritically accepted as beliefs. Critical thinking
    comes later. Weak logic and cognitive fallacies are
    of all ages, but advanced education helps, even if
    it's no panacea.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I agree, partially, Jeroen. To me "young" is as "old" as 18 y.o.
    :-)  Anyway, I hypothesize, we (educators in U.S., in particular)
    generally underestimate the age at which the brain
    can begin to think critically. True, you don't want the
    students to be disruptive, and begin challenging everything
    being taught.

    You can encourage "free thought" without inviting outright
    challenges to (ahem) "dogma".

    Even activities like "choosing a science fair project"
    require some initiative on the part of the student;
    what do you want to do and what do you expect to show, etc.

    But if we (in U.S.) are treating 18 y.o. as an
    adult, legally, with some serious responsibilities and decisions
    (that affect them, me, and everyone around them)
    then we better prepare them accordingly. Unfortunately
    the source for this preparation is increasingly dependent
    of the public schools.

    And, "know-better" legislators want to lay a heavy hand on WHAT
    they can be exposed to and, by extension, be able to "think for
    themselves" about.

    Imagine a whole class of people terrified of certain *books*
    (likely because you can't SHOOT a book!) or *concepts*...

    Gotta pity the poor children so constrained in their thoughts.
    Wonder what life will be like when they are LATER, exposed to
    people (in positions of power/influence) who espouse DIFFERENT
    "beliefs"?


    No time for public education, need to ban pornography, clearly
    responsible for low birth rates and the degeneration of our precious
    American bodily fluids in general:

    <https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2022/5/31/23148731/jd-vance-ohio-senate-candidate-pornography-should-be-banned-to-save-families-birth-rate-marriage-us>

    Achtung raus! Hup! Raus mein Fuhrer jawohl! Zee good Germans is heah to
    save Ameirka.

    And public education is next on the chopping block after Roe v Wade, we
    have to ensure educators are teaching young women menstrual blood is the
    cum of a demon and the devil needs to be beaten out of them to prevent
    his cum from getting in there, as is proper, not any of that boring
    scientific or medical crap about it. It's probably all tainted with the
    CRT anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 1 10:20:15 2022
    On Tue, 31 May 2022 20:40:55 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:05 AM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 30 May 2022 21:13:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/29/2022 9:19 AM, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of
    entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
    poisoned. 200 years ago, we tossed our trash anywhere we felt and
    suffered the disease. 100 years ago we mined resources without
    regard to the damage done and lived with being slowly poisoned.
    Now, all of those things are recognized as being harmful to our
    society and none are allowed. It costs us convenience and even
    money, but we recognize that it is important to not live in an
    environment of filth and waste.

    Come the year 2000, we have despoiled our air with the fumes of
    toxic auto emissions, released enough CO2 to raise the temperature
    of the planet and are on our way to the blackening of the world we
    live in, not so different from the poisonous fogs of London. Yet,
    so many of us deny this reality and refuse solutions. In
    particular, with autos, they act as if spewing noxious emissions for >>>>> our personal transportation convenience is a birthright!

    There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk. We have reached a point where, if we want to continue to roam >>>>> the world in cages of steel and glass, we must abandon the most
    poisonous forms of transportation. Even with the existing
    regulations, fossil fuels continue to spoil our air and very
    importantly, release CO2, the most serious form of pollution in this >>>>> century. Meanwhile, we are presented with a paradigm shift that can >>>>> resolve much of the impact of our transport plight, the battery
    electric vehicle. Yet, so many refuse to consider it, simply
    because it is different, with different advantages and different
    liabilities.

    If this were 120 years ago and we were presented with this sort of
    transportation, the world would jump at it and it would have swept
    aside all the noxious gas burning autos to become the only form of
    land transportation. We would have never known about smog or the
    disasters of oil spilling into our water ways, destroying miles of
    coastline environments. But mostly, we would all be enjoying the
    convenience of battery powered cars.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience ber alles!


    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

    Lots of California towns started with random placed houses, and
    streets were declared later, so are a mess. Dutch Flat has nice
    straight streets with houses aligned to sidewalks, because every time
    it burned down it was rebuilt a little better.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 1 10:16:51 2022
    On Tue, 31 May 2022 19:02:49 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 31 May 2022 14:30:51 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    ...
    This is fun, St Mary's Park.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mhmlrn456unoto/St_Marys_Park.jpg?raw=1

    It's amazing that all the houses were built on hillsides, streets with
    30% grades, using horses and people to haul wood and bricks.

    I just came back from Portugal. Here is a historical example of just
    that:

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto#/media/File:Ribera_area_along_the_river_Duoro,_Porto,_Portugal,_2019.jpg>


    The whole Douro River is like that, only vineyards not buildings. Lots
    of olive and almond trees as well. The slopes often exceed 30%, and
    it's mostly to all hand work.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Rio_Douro_-_Portugal_(32615481975)_(cropped).jpg>

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Douro_Valley_Regua.jpg>


    Joe Gwinn

    Looks like you could tip a cow and it would roll all the way down into
    the river.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wmartin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 11:07:26 2022
    On 6/1/22 01:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then
    decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
    pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the
    Back Bay really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens
    got redone when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to
    fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in
    the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday
    night and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound.  Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense.  E.g., the core metro area would fit >> *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    Sooo, did Charlie ever get off the MTA? :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to wmartin on Wed Jun 1 11:32:50 2022
    On 6/1/2022 11:07 AM, wmartin wrote:
    On 6/1/22 01:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay really
    was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone when they >>>> dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night and
    park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other
    livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit >>> *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
    nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    Sooo, did Charlie ever get off the MTA? :-)

    No ("He'll never return") -- and, after all that, O'Brien lost!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology. on Wed Jun 1 14:34:50 2022
    On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 10:16:51 -0700, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 31 May 2022 19:02:49 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 31 May 2022 14:30:51 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

    ...
    This is fun, St Mary's Park.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mhmlrn456unoto/St_Marys_Park.jpg?raw=1

    It's amazing that all the houses were built on hillsides, streets with >>>30% grades, using horses and people to haul wood and bricks.

    I just came back from Portugal. Here is a historical example of just
    that:
    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto#/media/File:Ribera_area_along_the_river_Duoro,_Porto,_Portugal,_2019.jpg>


    The whole Douro River is like that, only vineyards not buildings. Lots
    of olive and almond trees as well. The slopes often exceed 30%, and
    it's mostly to all [done by] hand work.
    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Rio_Douro_-_Portugal_(32615481975)_(cropped).jpg>

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douro#/media/File:Douro_Valley_Regua.jpg>


    Joe Gwinn

    Looks like you could tip a cow and it would roll all the way down into
    the river.

    Yes. It's way too steep and broken for cattle. You do see sheep, and
    mountain goats would also work.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 12:55:23 2022
    On 6/1/2022 7:05 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 10:03 AM, bitrex wrote:

    Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to South >> Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or taxi at all >> my adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop, then a 50 minute bus
    ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.

    Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and
    longer train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up
    suggesting a trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the same >> trip would take me 45 minutes tops

    At the absolute peak of weekday rush hour it might take an hour.

    Driving (personal vehicle) tends to be pretty quick, here, as the
    speed limits "in town" are 45MPH (freaks visitors from NYC out!).
    But, the distances (*in* town) tend to be longer.

    And, there's no coherent thought in how the town is laid out
    so it's not like businesses are in one particular area while
    residences are in others.

    [There's at least one "community" that has tried to be self-contained.
    They're located far enough from everything else that they really have
    an incentive to be so! Just *don't* need medical care...]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Wed Jun 1 12:52:11 2022
    On 6/1/2022 7:03 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 5:11 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 1:08 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 11:27 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 7:40 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 05/31/2022 12:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    You could do like Denver -- lay out the *grid* along the Platte, then decide
    that a compass points orientation would be smarter!

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone when
    they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >>>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.

    There's really no need to drive *in* Boston as public transit and other >>>> livery services abound. Moreso than many other metro areas.

    And, the region is relatively dense. E.g., the core metro area would fit >>>> *in* the city limits of Chicago.

    The public transit in Boston is adequate-on-a-good-day at best, and a
    nightmare when the system isn't having a good day

    I don't think you understand how "nightmarish" public transit can be ALL
    of the time!

    E.g., my most common drive is to my volunteer gig. It's about 20 minnutes >> in a private vehicle.

    If I had to rely on public transit (busses, here), it would mean a 1.25 mile >> walk to the bus stop -- hopefully timed to arrive just before a bus departs >> on the route in which I'm interested.

    Then, a 22 minute (per their schedule) drive to another stop -- where I'd
    wait ~20 minutes (assuming all is going well!) for my connection. Then, a >> 5 minute drive to the final stop. And a half mile walk to the destination. >>
    At my 4MPH walking pace, that's ~25 minutes on foot plus 27 minutes on wheels.
    Almost three times longer than my "drive WHEN it is convenient for me to do so"
    approach. And, having to deal with *sharing* the vehicle with "others"... >>
    [And, who knows how I would drag any rescued kit home via the busline!]

    Yes, I live far enough from Boston proper that if I wanted to get to South Station downtown as of 10 AM this morning without using a car or taxi at all my
    adventure starts with a 20 minute walk to a bus stop, then a 50 minute bus ride, then a 35 minute heavy rail train ride.

    The trip I described is just over 9 miles -- roughly the distance from Park St station to Big Joyce Chen's (@ Fresh Pond). Note that we occupy ~230 sq mi (almost exactly the size of Chicago) while Beantown clocks in at under 50 (almost exactly the size of San Francisco). So, *practical* distances here
    are considerably larger.

    Google sometimes routes me a bit differently with a shorter bus ride and longer
    train ride depending on the time of day, but it always ends up suggesting a trip that takes over 2 hours. By car even in traffic the same trip would take me 45 minutes tops, it's only about 25 miles away I don't live _that_ far outside the city.

    Our "pilgrimage" is a regular trip to the oriental market. It's about
    15 driven miles -- 30 minutes. By bus, *90* minutes including two
    transfers. (and, of course, you're stuck with *their* schedule instead
    of your own) And, would have to carry your groceries that 1.25 miles
    from the "local" bus stop to the house.

    But housing closer in within easy striking distance of a light rail station tends to command a premium price tag.

    Our "light rail" is confined to downtown/university -- typically only used by students too lazy to use their legs...

    Of course, I have no idea what the MTA is like, now as it's been decades
    since I've been there. And, I've not a clue as to how Big Dig is mucking
    with surface transportation...

    The Big Dig has been done for pushing 20 years and made getting in and out of town by car a _lot_ better, but mucked with public transit in Boston a lot. A large amount of the debt for that got shoveled off onto the MBTA, circa 2010 a
    quarter of the MBTA's operating budget was spent on Big Dig debt service.

    The system was running really threadbare for many years and it came to a head in 2014-2015 when the exceptional snowfall of that winter regularly ground the
    subway system to a halt, stuff was massively breaking down every week. The average age of a trainset a decade ago was like 32 years old or something.

    The joke was the MBTA's general manager Beverly Scott had announced her resignation "before the snow had even stopped falling" which wasn't far from the truth.

    As of a few years back they've begun investing more money in track & equipment
    upgrades and they've got several hundred new trainsets built in Springfield MA
    by Chinese state-owned CRRC (grumble grumble), however they're having teething
    troubles as new trainsets tend to do:

    The mass transit folly, here (besides lack of light rail or other non-bus transport) is the adoption of the same sorts of vehicles that you would
    find in a "big (dense) city" where our ridership is considerably lighter
    and more geographically varied. A smarter solution would be "kiddie
    busses" running more frequently and over more routes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 1 13:17:33 2022
    On 6/1/2022 7:15 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/01/2022 01:26 AM, bitrex wrote:

    If you have an 80 year old rifle and an '86 pickup you're not the type
    to trade them in anyway, you are likely an old-junk hoarder like Sanford
    & Son, saving rusty screws in a jar too.

    <https://youtu.be/FUjWYm8bh8U>

    Or, someone who figures "if it ain't broke...".

    How long do you "keep" a love interest?

    I miss Red Green. That, Austin City Limits, and a few other programs on PBS are
    about my only TV consumption.

    Meh. A little RG goes a LONG way (how many ways can you tell the same joke?)

    We abandoned broadcast TV (and cable) many years ago. Occasionally, we will try to catch The Evening Commercials as they sometimes have a few minutes
    of news and weather interspersed.

    But, once you start *reading* the news stories (from the same broadcasters) on-line... and realize that each "story" is a mere three sentences... <shrug>

    The TV is now a giant DVD player -- our local library has ~8000 titles so
    we've usually got 20+ "on hold" along with a dozen or two at home.
    (and, if you treat it as "entertainment", then rewatching SOME films is perfectly acceptable -- esp if you "watch" with your ears while your
    eyes are busy with other things!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Wed Jun 1 21:49:20 2022
    On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

    <snip>

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
    various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

    It can be be. It doesn't have to be.

    It is pretty bad at the moment. Like a gold rush.

    Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is entirely independent.

    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/

    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been
    available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a
    car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    Battery cars were popular early on. There weren't many of them so they were just as expensive as petrol cars.

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
    always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/

    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
    lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(

    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available>

    In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

    Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Jun 1 17:08:12 2022
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
    always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
    lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
    income is 100 grand or over

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 1 17:24:08 2022
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
    limits for three times the price.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 2 09:28:04 2022
    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
    always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
    lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
    horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 1 16:53:13 2022
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
    always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
    lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
    income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
    horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 1 19:48:00 2022
    On 06/01/2022 02:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, *storing* a car was always tedious -- esp if you didn't have a
    driveway
    or parking area set aside for your use (on both ends of the trip).

    When I worked direct for a company in Cambridge and got restless we had
    the 'what would it take to keep you?' conversation. My answer was a card
    for the indoor parking garage. They had a uncontrolled lot down the
    street but I was driving a Firebird. They had a bad way of going missing
    in Boston.

    A friend went through two Healey 3000's that were stolen and got sick of
    the hassle so he bought a Volvo sedan. That got stolen too but at least
    that one was recovered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Jun 1 20:12:50 2022
    On 6/1/2022 1:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

    <snip>

    Mining the lithium for the batteries is a nasty business despoiling
    various pristine habitats with little concern for the inhabitants.

    It can be be. It doesn't have to be.

    It is pretty bad at the moment. Like a gold rush.

    Out of sight out of mind for those that want to pretend that there is no >>>> downside to electric vehicles and growth of Lithium batteries. They also >>>> end up with radioactive tailings in Peru (or uranium as a by-product).

    They can. It is a matter of choice. The fact that uranium deposits were found
    nearby is a coincidence, and the choice about what to do with them is
    entirely independent.
    https://www.mining-technology.com/analysis/cracking-lithium-triangle-will-new-legislation-open-gates-peru/


    You have a strange imagination. Chances are if this technology had been >>>> available back then only the very richest people would ever have had a >>>> car. Until mass production petrol cars were rich men's expensive toys.

    Battery cars were popular early on. There weren't many of them so they were >> just as expensive as petrol cars.

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were outpaced at
    every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were always in very real trouble
    for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until comparatively
    recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by lead acid cells when I
    was young but that was about it as far as electric vehicles went. (advantage of
    nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Instead, many of us think spoiling our environment is secondary to
    our convenience, as if we had a birthright to roaming the earth in
    ways that destroy the environment, our "convenience" is paramount!
    Convenience über alles!

    The next generation can pay for it. Politicians can't ever see any
    further than the next election and often not even that far :(

    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt
    enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are
    starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available>

    In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

    Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

    "Very?" <shrug> Energy is relatively cheap (US).

    And, there are things that manufacturers can do to increase
    energy *efficiency* (whether a response to a market demand
    or legislative action).

    I suspect the bigger problem is going to be water -- and, to
    a lesser (in terms of how widespread) extent, foodstuffs.
    There's not much that can be done to "make more" or "need less"
    (though lots of waste in the US that could be addressed).

    The populations that haven;'t had to worry about these issues
    will likely feel very "inconvenienced" by them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jun 2 14:49:59 2022
    On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were >>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by >>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
    income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
    horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
    hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
    six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

    I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
    I wonder how milk was delivered there?

    CH

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 1 22:34:33 2022
    On 6/1/2022 6:48 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/01/2022 02:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH, *storing* a car was always tedious -- esp if you didn't have a
    driveway
    or parking area set aside for your use (on both ends of the trip).

    When I worked direct for a company in Cambridge and got restless we had the 'what would it take to keep you?' conversation. My answer was a card for the indoor parking garage. They had a uncontrolled lot down the street but I was driving a Firebird. They had a bad way of going missing in Boston.

    A neighbor has hid stolen -- out of his driveway -- twice. Recovered both times but the second recovery it was trashed.

    A friend went through two Healey 3000's that were stolen and got sick of the hassle so he bought a Volvo sedan. That got stolen too but at least that one was recovered.

    Increasingly, I am annoyed with "travel". A waste of time with too many potential unexpected surprises (theft, vandalism, damage, breakdown, etc.).

    And, car *ownership* brings along its own set of issues (maintenance, theft, etc.). Plus the whole issue of shopping for replacements...

    I suspect there may be a market for a hybrid rental approach; let someone
    else own the vehicles and you choose how much you want to "cling" to one... "just for this trip across town" vs. "I want it waiting for me in the morning" Being able to walk away from any "problems" has a certain appeal!

    [But, I'm getting old and impatient with "needless wastes of time"]

    There is a scale problem with vehicles. How can you justify telling some portion of the (world) population that they can't have one? For that
    reason, I can't see electric vehicles being anything more than a transitional phase. Imagine replacing EVERY gas guzzler with an EV and having folks
    *keep* those vehicles (operational!) for 10, 20, 30 years.

    There's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
    to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
    spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
    slave to that possession)?

    A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the introduction
    of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within reason). Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven? ("drain
    the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for cash?
    A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years later!

    [I don't know any winter visitors who drive EVs to ask them how they
    "store" their vehicle for 6 months of the year. And, the few EV drivers
    that I know don't seem to be happy with any of their purchases (replacing
    them every year or two with different makes/models) to shed any light]

    "Beam me up (over), Scotty!" All I need is to be able to carry a bit
    of "stuff" for the trip! (or, send it along AFTER me...!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Wed Jun 1 23:45:20 2022
    On 06/01/2022 10:49 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were >>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/



    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by >>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median >>>> income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
    horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
    hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
    six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

    I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
    I wonder how milk was delivered there?

    CH

    The story is Hallidie started the cable car system after seeing a
    horrendous wreck when a horse slipped on wet cobblestones and the whole
    team and wagon slid down to the bottom of the hill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 2 00:49:15 2022
    On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:08:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.
    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median income is 100 grand or over

    I used to live in a house that became adjacent to commercial. The trash truck would come and BAM, BAM, BAM at the gas stations, ROAR, ROAR, ROAR as it moved to the next place, then BAM, BAM, BAM, lather, rinse, repeat. I seem to be able to sleep
    through that mostly, but if I was just getting to sleep, a half hour later I might be able to get back to sleep.

    I thought about getting a trash truck and making that sort of noise in front of the mayor's house.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 2 00:53:29 2022
    On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:24:17 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.
    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
    limits for three times the price.

    Yeah, we got both kinds of water, hot *and* cold!

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 2 11:12:48 2022
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:49:59 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were >>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by >>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median >>>> income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the
    horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
    hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A >school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
    six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming >incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

    I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
    I wonder how milk was delivered there?

    CH

    That was in New Orleans, almost optically flat.

    I'm NOT so old as to remember milk being delivered by horses.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 2 11:14:33 2022
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 23:45:20 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/01/2022 10:49 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were >>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the >>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were >>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/



    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by >>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight. >>>>>
    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median >>>>> income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the >>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
    hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
    school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
    six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
    incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

    I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
    I wonder how milk was delivered there?

    CH

    The story is Hallidie started the cable car system after seeing a
    horrendous wreck when a horse slipped on wet cobblestones and the whole
    team and wagon slid down to the bottom of the hill.

    If you are in SF make sure to ride the Hyde Street line. Don't sit,
    hang outside.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Thu Jun 2 11:20:49 2022
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jun 2 21:48:28 2022
    On 06/01/2022 11:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
    here's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
    to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
    spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
    slave to that possession)?

    A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the introduction of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within
    reason).
    Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven? ("drain the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for cash?
    A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years later!

    I do pull the battery out of the pickup and put it on a tender in the
    winter. I try to take it for a ride once a year but with gas headed
    toward $5 it might be a really short ride this year. But you're correct.
    In this state after 12 years you go to a permanent plate so the only
    cost is insurance.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jun 2 21:57:30 2022
    On 06/02/2022 12:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:49:59 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were >>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the >>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were >>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by >>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight. >>>>>
    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median >>>>> income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the >>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
    hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
    school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
    six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
    incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

    I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
    I wonder how milk was delivered there?

    CH

    That was in New Orleans, almost optically flat.

    I'm NOT so old as to remember milk being delivered by horses.


    https://www.splicetoday.com/writing/freihofer-s-bakery-wagons

    You don't have to be completely ancient to remember bread being
    delivered by horses. We lived in the country so bread and milk was
    delivered by truck but they kept the horses in the city until '62.

    There was also a greengrocer who used a horse drawn wagon where my uncle
    lived.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri Jun 3 14:07:31 2022
    On 3/6/22 04:12, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 14:49:59 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 09:53, John Larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:28:04 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>
    wrote:

    On 2/6/22 07:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were >>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the >>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were >>>>>> always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by >>>>>> lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight. >>>>>
    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median >>>>> income is 100 grand or over

    I still remember the 5:30AM clip-clop of the horse-drawn milkcart and
    the clink of glass bottles as the milkman called Whoooah or g'up to the >>>> horse to keep pace. It wasn't a noise that woke me, or an unpleasant
    sound if I was awake already.

    Clifford Heath.

    My dad was a milkman. I used to help him run his route on Saturday,
    starting about 4 AM.

    He said that he was really teaching me to work hard in school so I
    wouldn't be stuck in a job like his. It worked.

    Well done by your Dad. It clearly did you good too, it would have been a
    hard life. I respect folk that can do that kind of service work. A
    school-friend ran behind a garbage truck carrying and emptying bins for
    six months before he started his PhD in Ag Sci. As well as him becoming
    incredibly strong, it has had lifelong health benefits.

    I assume horses weren't used in the crazy-steep parts of San Francisco.
    I wonder how milk was delivered there?

    CH

    That was in New Orleans, almost optically flat.

    I'm NOT so old as to remember milk being delivered by horses.

    Well, I'm only 62. The horse kept pace without needing a driver, so the
    milk round was quicker than it could be with any one person in a truck.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 2 23:18:11 2022
    On 6/2/2022 8:48 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/01/2022 11:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
    here's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
    to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
    spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
    slave to that possession)?

    A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the introduction >> of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within
    reason).
    Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven? ("drain >> the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for cash?
    A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years
    later!

    I do pull the battery out of the pickup and put it on a tender in the winter. I

    But that's the *starter* battery (?). What would you do if you had an
    EV that you wanted to sideline for months (or longer)?

    try to take it for a ride once a year but with gas headed toward $5 it might be
    a really short ride this year. But you're correct. In this state after 12 years
    you go to a permanent plate so the only cost is insurance.

    Vehicles are treated as "property", here. So, annual registration is a function of assessed ORIGINAL value.

    E.g., a $40K vehicle would cost ~$670 to register, for the first year;
    ~$560 for the second, etc. There's a definite advantage to keeping an
    older vehicle, even if you put a lot of money into it, changing it's
    ACTUAL (resale) value.

    And, our climate means no worries of rust eating away at your frame, etc.
    So, older vehicles are sought out and restored.

    [I've a friend with a ~1920s vintage touring car in which he's "quietly" installed a custom, fully blown, ~700? HP plant, reinforced the frame,
    etc. It's just a straight-line car as it has stability problems when
    you open it up. The joke is that the *paint* holds the body together.
    Engine set him back close to $50K. (not hard to imagine as a big block
    crate can run $15K) But, it costs next to nothing to register it, due
    to it's ORIGINAL "VIN". Insurance? Now that's a different story...]

    Lots of folks who are into restoring to original state/configuration.
    That seems silly, to me; take it in a different direction and make
    something unique from it!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 3 10:54:57 2022
    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
    always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
    lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the batteries
    was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill and
    run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom.

    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
    chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until
    about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 3 06:42:10 2022
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:19:52 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>

    One of these days you'll get the education of a fifth grader.

    The German uber alles doesn't have the meaning you ignorant, uneducated people think. It was used to reinforce the idea of a nation of unified states to take precedence over regional state loyalties. It doesn't mean the Germans considered themselves as
    above the rest of the world.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Deutschlandlied

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Jun 3 06:30:50 2022
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 10:51:50 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.

    2,000 years ago, the Romans built pipes of lead and were slowly
    poisoned.
    Not true.

    The Victorians also used lead piping for drinking water and were not poisoned by doing that at all. Only the most acidic soft water off
    peatlands will dissolve any lead from water pipes. Most ordinary tap
    water has enough dissolved salts in it that the inside of the pipe furs
    up within the first year of use and no lead then escapes. The very name "plumber" comes from the usage of lead pipes until very recently.

    The 19th century Victorians used white lead for caulking things like gutters and water cisterns fed by them. Cisterns were ubiquitous in urban and rural settings. All the manufacturing centers, everywhere, were unbelievable disasters. You want acid rain?
    Just burn coal like the Victorians did, for everything. Germany was another hellacious hellhole coal burner up to fairly recently, perpetually suffocated by coal burning emissions. In places like Essen you didn't have enough visibility to see clearly
    across the street, and that was 1960s. There's no question all the heavy metal pollution and contamination made them into a nation of lunatics by the early 20th century. It's no coincidence that was the first generation completely saturated with
    contamination since they were conceived. The English were not much better, maybe being an island resulted in slightly better air circulation than the on the continent.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Fri Jun 3 06:58:31 2022
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:42:14 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:19:52 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>

    One of these days you'll get the education of a fifth grader.

    The German uber alles doesn't have the meaning you ignorant, uneducated people think. It was used to reinforce the idea of a nation of unified states to take precedence over regional state loyalties. It doesn't mean the Germans considered themselves as
    above the rest of the world.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Deutschlandlied

    Your reading skills are very impressive. You read into a post, so much that isn't there at all.

    It would be nice if you didn't bother to correct people when you have no idea what they are talking about.

    Not that it matters much. This thread has drifted far off topic, über alles.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri Jun 3 09:53:43 2022
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
    skillset.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 3 08:04:06 2022
    On 06/03/2022 12:18 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/2/2022 8:48 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/01/2022 11:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
    here's very little cost to *keeping* extra vehicles when all you have
    to do is put Stabil in the tank (or drain it). How do you keep a
    spare EV -- and ensure that it remains driveable (without becoming a
    slave to that possession)?

    A gas guzzler can sit for a decade and resume service with the
    introduction
    of fuel. The *mechanism* doesn't degrade while being stored (within
    reason).
    Do you pull the battery from your EV while it's not being driven?
    ("drain
    the tank") How do you maintain it in that state -- trade it in for
    cash?
    A gas tank doesn't need any special care (if drained) to be usable years >>> later!

    I do pull the battery out of the pickup and put it on a tender in the
    winter. I

    But that's the *starter* battery (?). What would you do if you had an
    EV that you wanted to sideline for months (or longer)?

    Not something I plan on doing. The local Triumph dealer has a line of
    electric motorcycles. Since bikes aren't feasible here from November to
    May I assume it would have to be on some sort of float charger too but I
    doubt taking the battery out isn't the 5 minute job as with the VStrom.


    Vehicles are treated as "property", here. So, annual registration is a function of assessed ORIGINAL value.

    Same here but if the vehicle is 12 years or older you can pay what
    amounts to 2 years of registrations and the plates are permanent; you
    never pay again. Bikes are a one shot registration regardless of the
    vehicle year. You pay once when you purchase it and never again.
    Trailers of all sorts are the same.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Jun 3 07:09:00 2022
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:58:35 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:42:14 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:19:52 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>

    One of these days you'll get the education of a fifth grader.

    The German uber alles doesn't have the meaning you ignorant, uneducated people think. It was used to reinforce the idea of a nation of unified states to take precedence over regional state loyalties. It doesn't mean the Germans considered themselves
    as above the rest of the world.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Deutschlandlied
    Your reading skills are very impressive. You read into a post, so much that isn't there at all.

    It would be nice if you didn't bother to correct people when you have no idea what they are talking about.

    Not that it matters much. This thread has drifted far off topic, über alles.

    I notice you just love telling people they don't know what they're talking about. Which is kind of a joke since you're one of the most ignorant people on usenet.


    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jun 3 07:56:48 2022
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that >>>>>>> was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >>>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.

    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.


    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >skillset.

    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Fri Jun 3 07:59:36 2022
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:09:05 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:58:35 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 9:42:14 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:19:52 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>

    One of these days you'll get the education of a fifth grader.

    The German uber alles doesn't have the meaning you ignorant, uneducated people think. It was used to reinforce the idea of a nation of unified states to take precedence over regional state loyalties. It doesn't mean the Germans considered
    themselves as above the rest of the world.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Deutschlandlied
    Your reading skills are very impressive. You read into a post, so much that isn't there at all.

    It would be nice if you didn't bother to correct people when you have no idea what they are talking about.

    Not that it matters much. This thread has drifted far off topic, über alles.
    I notice you just love telling people they don't know what they're talking about. Which is kind of a joke since you're one of the most ignorant people on usenet.

    Ok, it''s clear this guy is a troll, with nothing to contribute to even a drifted conversation. Very unusual in s.e.d.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 3 09:03:30 2022
    On 6/3/2022 7:04 AM, rbowman wrote:

    Vehicles are treated as "property", here. So, annual registration is a
    function of assessed ORIGINAL value.

    Same here but if the vehicle is 12 years or older you can pay what amounts to 2
    years of registrations and the plates are permanent; you never pay again. Bikes
    are a one shot registration regardless of the vehicle year. You pay once when you purchase it and never again. Trailers of all sorts are the same.

    You need an emission test in order to get your registration, here.
    Results must be submitted with registration renewal.

    (some vehicles it's just checking the OBD; others take a trip on the dyno).

    The registration cost drops to something trivial over time -- though
    the emissions test is a constant cost regardless of how tested (IIRC).

    OTOH, *licenses* are issued once and not renewed until 65th birthday.
    That's a change from other places I've lived (with ~4 year renewal cycles)

    [I can't recall CDL requirements; likely renewed pretty regularly]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Jun 3 10:37:44 2022
    On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 12:56:59 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >skillset.

    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    One conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    It doesn't say anything of the sort. It talks about how genes work, and points out that while the genes that influence intelligence are very numerous none of them have much effect on their own. John Larkin seems to have conflated it with "The Bell Curve"
    which wasn't nearly as well researched.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_by_Design

    was much better researched, and explained how going to Harvard was always better than going to some cheap state college - all the rich creep whose parents paid through the nose to get them into Harvard know all kinds of people who have good jobs to
    offer to friends of their kids.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Jun 3 10:17:08 2022
    On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 6:49:29 AM UTC+10, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:

    <snip>

    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available

    In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

    Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.

    In Australia it is quite a lot cheaper to generate electricity with solar cells or windmills that it is to generate by burning coal, gas or oil in in old-fashioned generating plants. Electric cars production is a factor of ten smaller than internal
    combustion car production, so each one costs roughly twice as much to make.

    They are selling largely because they are more efficient and thus cheaper to run per mile travelled.

    When economy of scale kicks in harder, they will be quite a lot cheaper. "In practice" usually means "my outdated idea of what used to be true".

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Fri Jun 3 10:47:13 2022
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:17:13 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 6:49:29 AM UTC+10, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>
    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available

    In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

    Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.
    In Australia it is quite a lot cheaper to generate electricity with solar cells or windmills that it is to generate by burning coal, gas or oil in in old-fashioned generating plants. Electric cars production is a factor of ten smaller than internal
    combustion car production, so each one costs roughly twice as much to make.

    They are selling largely because they are more efficient and thus cheaper to run per mile travelled.

    When economy of scale kicks in harder, they will be quite a lot cheaper. "In practice" usually means "my outdated idea of what used to be true".

    There are some who have a gut instinct that when something is bought more, the price must go up. They ignore the matter of economy of scale, but also, that the increase in sales is partly due to the low price continuing to drop. With the rapid adoption
    of new technologies, energy costs can continue to drop, just as modern electronics brought down the cost of many items such as TVs (compare a color tube set from the 60s to a flat panel now).

    I don't think the economy of scale applies to the entire auto market in the way you seem to be describing. Much of a BEV car is the same as an ICE. It is only the motor and battery that has a premium cost. So there's no additional economy of scale for
    the common parts. Even with larger quantities, it will be a while before much savings is had, because of the cost of ramping up material production. New lithium, and other raw material sources cost money to develop. That requires sustainable higher
    prices to continue the process of ramping up. Once the cost stabilizes at a higher price the sources will be developed and prices can creep down again. So in the short term, handful of years, we are not likely to see lower BEV prices, but beyond that,
    they will resume to seek a bottom.

    As the outlier, GM has announced lower prices for the Bolt. $26,000 for their lowest priced model. We'll see if they can keep selling them at that price.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Fri Jun 3 13:54:07 2022
    On 6/3/2022 1:37 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 12:56:59 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
    skillset.

    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    One conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    It doesn't say anything of the sort. It talks about how genes work, and points out that while the genes that influence intelligence are very numerous none of them have much effect on their own. John Larkin seems to have conflated it with "The Bell
    Curve" which wasn't nearly as well researched.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_by_Design

    was much better researched, and explained how going to Harvard was always better than going to some cheap state college - all the rich creep whose parents paid through the nose to get them into Harvard know all kinds of people who have good jobs to
    offer to friends of their kids.


    There was only one kid at my fairly affluent public high school who
    seemed like a "natural" genius. He hardly had to study very hard and was
    at Princeton IAS by about age 25 or something.

    There were no shortage of kids who ended up at other quality schools
    including MIT that scored 1600s SATs though, but I recall to get there
    their parents shoveled money into after-school tutoring and other such extra-curriculars for many months to get a leg up to pull those scores.

    There were some recent Soviet expats living in the area who were a bit perplexed as to why these public schools they'd heard had such an
    excellent reputation seemed mediocre in practice; they didn't see them
    as being much better at educating their kids than what the parents had experienced back in Estonia.

    They didn't "get" (at least not immediately, anyway, there are a number
    of Russian-owned private tutoring services in the area now particularly
    in math) there was an unwritten-kinda rule in wealthy New England that
    you were supposed to be shoveling money at your kids for a concurrent
    private education and that this then translated into reviews of
    "excellent public school system" for the area.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Jun 3 11:05:45 2022
    On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 3:47:18 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:17:13 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 6:49:29 AM UTC+10, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>
    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available

    In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

    Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.
    In Australia it is quite a lot cheaper to generate electricity with solar cells or windmills that it is to generate by burning coal, gas or oil in in old-fashioned generating plants. Electric cars production is a factor of ten smaller than internal
    combustion car production, so each one costs roughly twice as much to make.

    They are selling largely because they are more efficient and thus cheaper to run per mile travelled.

    When economy of scale kicks in harder, they will be quite a lot cheaper. "In practice" usually means "my outdated idea of what used to be true".

    There are some who have a gut instinct that when something is bought more, the price must go up. They ignore the matter of economy of scale, but also, that the increase in sales is partly due to the low price continuing to drop. With the rapid adoption
    of new technologies, energy costs can continue to drop, just as modern electronics brought down the cost of many items such as TVs (compare a color tube set from the 60s to a flat panel now).

    I don't think the economy of scale applies to the entire auto market in the way you seem to be describing. Much of a BEV car is the same as an ICE. It is only the motor and battery that has a premium cost. So there's no additional economy of scale for
    the common parts. Even with larger quantities, it will be a while before much savings is had, because of the cost of ramping up material production. New lithium, and other raw material sources cost money to develop.

    Obviously, but a much bigger mine has it own built in economies of scale. Australian iron ore mines are huge, and each one comes with anew railway to get the ore to a new port. A new lithium mine is likely to be just as big, and offer the same kind of
    economy of scale,

    That requires sustainable higher prices to continue the process of ramping up.

    Not really. When the Chinese bumped up solar cell production volume by a factor of ten, the price went down, not up.

    Once the cost stabilizes at a higher price the sources will be developed and prices can creep down again.

    If you bump up production volume a lot you have sell a lot more product to pay the interest on the capital you invested. You make lots of product as soonas you can and price it to move.

    So in the short term, handful of years, we are not likely to see lower BEV prices, but beyond that, they will resume to seek a bottom.

    Probably not.

    As the outlier, GM has announced lower prices for the Bolt. $26,000 for their lowest priced model. We'll see if they can keep selling them at that price.

    They wouldn't have dropped the price if they didn't need to sell more of them.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Fri Jun 3 11:12:16 2022
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 10:54:57 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they were
    always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered by
    lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the batteries
    was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill and
    run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom.

    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
    chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's median
    income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until >about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.

    Our serious noise source is un-muffled motorcycles. The morons love to
    blip! blip! just to wake up more people.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Jun 3 12:04:13 2022
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >>>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of people
    in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.





    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com on Fri Jun 3 12:50:18 2022
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >> >>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public
    transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >> >>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >> >>>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >> >>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >> >>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >> >>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >> >>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >> >>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >> >>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >> >>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >> >>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying
    several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
    skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of people
    in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 3 21:33:08 2022
    On 06/03/2022 10:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 7:04 AM, rbowman wrote:

    Vehicles are treated as "property", here. So, annual registration is a
    function of assessed ORIGINAL value.

    Same here but if the vehicle is 12 years or older you can pay what
    amounts to 2 years of registrations and the plates are permanent; you
    never pay again. Bikes are a one shot registration regardless of the
    vehicle year. You pay once when you purchase it and never again.
    Trailers of all sorts are the same.

    You need an emission test in order to get your registration, here.
    Results must be submitted with registration renewal.

    No emissions tests in this state.

    OTOH, *licenses* are issued once and not renewed until 65th birthday.
    That's a change from other places I've lived (with ~4 year renewal cycles)

    [I can't recall CDL requirements; likely renewed pretty regularly]

    I think it was 5 years like the DL. I dropped my CDL when you had to go through DHS screening for a HazMat endorsement. I once thought I'd drive summers after I retired but I never got around to retiring and realized
    my enthusiasm for living in a truck had waned. Quite a few married
    couples do that; it's like RVing with someone else buying the gas and
    paying you to boot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri Jun 3 22:29:58 2022
    On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 5:50:30 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >> >>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.

    His point is the genes dominate.

    True. But his metric was "years in education" which is pretty unspecific. His data-base is places like "23 and me" which offer a lot of genomes but aren't set up to collect much data from even people who - like me - who are willing to provide the data.

    Harvard is very selective. Harvard grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Harvard is very selective, but the students whose parents want their kids to get into Harvard pay a lot for extra instruction to make their kids look good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    But it doesn't say what John Larkin likes to think it says. He's got Flyguy's kind of reading comprehension - he can always understand text in a way that suits what he wants it to say.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 3 23:24:36 2022
    On 6/3/2022 8:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
    OTOH, *licenses* are issued once and not renewed until 65th birthday.
    That's a change from other places I've lived (with ~4 year renewal cycles) >>
    [I can't recall CDL requirements; likely renewed pretty regularly]

    I think it was 5 years like the DL. I dropped my CDL when you had to go through DHS screening for a HazMat endorsement.

    One of the non-profits I'm affiliated with has asked me to get forklift certified so I could "cover" for those times when no one else was on-hand
    to operate.

    Fine. I can OCCASIONALLY schlep pallets around the Yard (gravel-over-earth
    so a pallet jack doesn't cut it) for 15-20 minutes. Or, help load the
    truck (someone with a pallet jack inside to receive pallets I'd load on
    the lift gate with fork lift).

    But, when they asked me to get my CDL (their expense) for similar reasons,
    it was easy to see how I'd spend my one-day-per-week, there, schlepping
    stuff around *town* (loading/driving/unloading is not my idea of a fun
    way to spend a day -- largely outdoors in 100F heat!). So, I conveniently forgot to go for the medical... and that ended that! :>

    I once thought I'd drive
    summers after I retired but I never got around to retiring and realized my enthusiasm for living in a truck had waned. Quite a few married couples do that; it's like RVing with someone else buying the gas and paying you to boot.

    RVing wouldn't be my idea of fun, either. I dislike traveling (in all forms). I'm waiting for the first commercial teleporters...

    [Colleagues from around the country get together a few times annually for
    an offsite where we can discuss our projects, catch up, etc. The dilemma
    is always: "Do I want to HOST (which means no need to travel but a fair
    effort to coordinate the event) or do I want to BE hosted (which means traveling but few other responsibilities)?" As folks tend to be eager
    to "visit", here, it's pretty easy to "win" a bid to host...]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 4 10:45:44 2022
    On 06/04/2022 12:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
    But, when they asked me to get my CDL (their expense) for similar reasons,
    it was easy to see how I'd spend my one-day-per-week, there, schlepping
    stuff around *town* (loading/driving/unloading is not my idea of a fun
    way to spend a day -- largely outdoors in 100F heat!). So, I conveniently forgot to go for the medical... and that ended that! :>

    The company I worked for had local drivers but I was OTR. Loading carpet
    at the LA terminal and delivering it to Dalton GA, then loading more
    carpet and going back to LV or LA was not uncommon. We rarely had to
    touch the carpet. Furniture was the other money maker that usually was warehouse to warehouse.

    I wanted to be a truck driver when I was a kid and when I needed a break
    from the tech world I finally got around to it. It was fun for a while
    but it gets old after a few hundred thousand miles. The best part was I
    could quit in November, spend the winter in AZ, then go back north in
    April or May, climb in a truck and take up where I left off. Now my boss
    gets a little sweaty if I'm out of town for a long weekend and even if
    I'm on vacation I'm watching email and Slack.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Sat Jun 4 11:57:00 2022
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 2:05:50 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 3:47:18 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 1:17:13 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 6:49:29 AM UTC+10, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 30/05/2022 12:36, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 2:12:54 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 29 May 2022 15:51:37 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 29/05/2022 14:19, Ricky wrote:
    <snip>
    Oil and gas were major contributors to human well-being. Now that we've burnt enough of them to generate appreciable global warming, the downsides are starting to become more obvious (not that John Larkin wants to know).

    <snip - reversion to the Middle Ages isn't the only choice available

    In practice it might well be at least for all but the richest people.

    Energy is going to be very expensive now and for the foreseeable future.
    In Australia it is quite a lot cheaper to generate electricity with solar cells or windmills that it is to generate by burning coal, gas or oil in in old-fashioned generating plants. Electric cars production is a factor of ten smaller than internal
    combustion car production, so each one costs roughly twice as much to make.

    They are selling largely because they are more efficient and thus cheaper to run per mile travelled.

    When economy of scale kicks in harder, they will be quite a lot cheaper. "In practice" usually means "my outdated idea of what used to be true".

    There are some who have a gut instinct that when something is bought more, the price must go up. They ignore the matter of economy of scale, but also, that the increase in sales is partly due to the low price continuing to drop. With the rapid
    adoption of new technologies, energy costs can continue to drop, just as modern electronics brought down the cost of many items such as TVs (compare a color tube set from the 60s to a flat panel now).

    I don't think the economy of scale applies to the entire auto market in the way you seem to be describing. Much of a BEV car is the same as an ICE. It is only the motor and battery that has a premium cost. So there's no additional economy of scale
    for the common parts. Even with larger quantities, it will be a while before much savings is had, because of the cost of ramping up material production. New lithium, and other raw material sources cost money to develop.
    Obviously, but a much bigger mine has it own built in economies of scale. Australian iron ore mines are huge, and each one comes with anew railway to get the ore to a new port. A new lithium mine is likely to be just as big, and offer the same kind of
    economy of scale,
    That requires sustainable higher prices to continue the process of ramping up.
    Not really. When the Chinese bumped up solar cell production volume by a factor of ten, the price went down, not up.

    You are confusing the free market with government subsidized industry growth. I'm talking about the natural order of business economics. A good example is shale oil production. Oil prices were high and the industry was created. Oil prices dropped to
    a point where it was no longer affordable and production stopped. Now that oil prices are high again, shale oil won't resume unless there is an indication the high prices will last long enough for the investment to be recovered with profit. That said,
    it would seem the forecasts do indicate continued high prices, so there are efforts to increase oil production, including shale oil.

    In the case of battery materials, very large investments are required. The gain in efficiency won't be seen, until these investments are made *and paid for*. Companies are not altruistic, they will have to recoup their investments. So they won't
    expand production unless they know they will be able to sell at a clear profit for the near future. I.e. higher prices for a few more years.


    Once the cost stabilizes at a higher price the sources will be developed and prices can creep down again.
    If you bump up production volume a lot you have sell a lot more product to pay the interest on the capital you invested. You make lots of product as soonas you can and price it to move.

    You sell a lot more when the demand exists. At this point going forward, the demand for battery materials is not very flexible. Automakers are betting the farm on the rapid expansion of BEV production and need more materials. They will pay what the
    market can offer. That cost will be passed on to the consumer who is currently happy to pay premium prices to get the BEVs they want. In another 3 to 5 years, there will be more competition and buyers will want to shop price more, but the market will
    be what it is. The number of BEVs won't increase 50% by lowering the cost by $1,000 or $2,000. Although, it seems that's what GM is counting on. They've dropped the price of the 2023 Bolts by $3,000, clearly in an attempt to regain market share after
    their battery fiasco. We'll see how well that works for them. Meanwhile Tesla has increases the minimum prices for the model 3 and Y and continue to sell everything they can produce with months long waiting lists.


    So in the short term, handful of years, we are not likely to see lower BEV prices, but beyond that, they will resume to seek a bottom.
    Probably not.
    As the outlier, GM has announced lower prices for the Bolt. $26,000 for their lowest priced model. We'll see if they can keep selling them at that price.
    They wouldn't have dropped the price if they didn't need to sell more of them.

    Duh! That wasn't the question. The question is are they losing money on every BEV they sell? That's not uncommon to gain market share. Like a pilot giving up altitude for airspeed.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jun 4 12:44:50 2022
    On 6/4/2022 9:45 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/04/2022 12:24 AM, Don Y wrote:
    But, when they asked me to get my CDL (their expense) for similar reasons, >> it was easy to see how I'd spend my one-day-per-week, there, schlepping
    stuff around *town* (loading/driving/unloading is not my idea of a fun
    way to spend a day -- largely outdoors in 100F heat!). So, I conveniently >> forgot to go for the medical... and that ended that! :>

    The company I worked for had local drivers but I was OTR. Loading carpet at the
    LA terminal and delivering it to Dalton GA, then loading more carpet and going
    back to LV or LA was not uncommon. We rarely had to touch the carpet. Furniture
    was the other money maker that usually was warehouse to warehouse.

    Yeah, we had a national chain that used to bring all of their electronic
    kit to us for refurbishment/recycling. An 18 wheeler would show up every month. Driver would just "stand around" waiting for us to unload.

    Times I had to unload the truck by myself! Climb in, move pallet to rear
    of truck. Jump down. Get in forklift. Pull pallet off back of truck
    and drop it <somewhere>. Climb back in truck, move next pallet to rear
    of truck... lather, rinse, repeat.

    I used to wonder why the driver wouldn't offer to help. Then, realized
    he's probably getting paid to *wait* for me! <frown>

    I wanted to be a truck driver when I was a kid and when I needed a break from the tech world I finally got around to it. It was fun for a while but it gets old after a few hundred thousand miles.

    Yeah, I had that feeling before my first cross country driving trip; I'll
    see all of the states FROM THE GROUND (previously had visited almost all
    of the states but by air -- so very selective "pinhole" views). I recall driving into Kansas (or maybe it was Nebraska). "Gee, this is interesting.
    A totally featureless landscape!" Thirty minutes later, "OK, I'm ready to
    move on to something NEW..." (Hours later, still more of the same!)

    The best part was I could quit in
    November, spend the winter in AZ, then go back north in April or May, climb in
    a truck and take up where I left off. Now my boss gets a little sweaty if I'm out of town for a long weekend and even if I'm on vacation I'm watching email and Slack.

    My solution was to work for myself. As it's relatively easy to make far more money than I can (realistically) spend, I could trade that surplus for "free time". Standing joke is that I retired 40 years ago! :>

    Keeping weird hours/calendar means no one knows *when* to expect a reply.
    (I quickly learned to give up the business line and force everyone to use email. I'm not real keen on having to drop what I'm doing just because YOU want something!)

    This has a strong impact on cutting down the number of "what if" conversations to those that really matter! (don't waste my time expecting me to tell you
    why your idea has problems; figure it out for yourself -- THEN run it past me. Keeping in mind that we've already written the contract for THIS project...)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 4 15:08:26 2022
    On 06/04/2022 01:44 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Yeah, we had a national chain that used to bring all of their electronic
    kit to us for refurbishment/recycling. An 18 wheeler would show up every month. Driver would just "stand around" waiting for us to unload.

    Times I had to unload the truck by myself! Climb in, move pallet to rear
    of truck. Jump down. Get in forklift. Pull pallet off back of truck
    and drop it <somewhere>. Climb back in truck, move next pallet to rear
    of truck... lather, rinse, repeat.

    I picked up a load of those annoying newspaper inserts in Boulder,CO
    that were going to Baltimore. Let's just say when I finally contacted
    the receiver I wasn't impressed when the instructions included 'turn
    left at the burned out van.' When I finally got there it was a store
    front operation. The 'staff' consisted of the owner walking up and down
    the block trying to recruit people sitting on the stoops drinking Mad Dog.

    The inserts were on pallets, probably 800 pounds each. The equipment
    consisted of one two-wheeled hand truck. The technique was to roll the
    pallets end over end until they fell off the truck when they would be
    wrestled onto the two wheeler. The tires looked like they were about to
    blow. I pitched in to help, hoping to get out of the neighborhood while
    I still had 18 wheels. I overheard one of the recruits muttering 'never
    seen mf'ing truck driver work before'.

    That also illustrates one of the problems of cheap (relatively)
    transportation. Print inserts in CO to go into the Baltimore Sunday
    paper? Nobody in say, Maryland, can print advertisements that will wind
    up in the trash?


    I used to wonder why the driver wouldn't offer to help. Then, realized
    he's probably getting paid to *wait* for me! <frown>

    We got paid a minimal flat rate for a stop but were getting paid by the
    mile, so no. Some union drivers get paid by the hour but most OTR
    drivers are by the mile. Doing the necessary paperwork, waiting for the
    next load, and hanging around while the truck is loaded or unloaded is
    on your own time. While the yearly income isn't bad realistically you're
    lucky to make the minimum hourly wage.


    My solution was to work for myself. As it's relatively easy to make far
    more
    money than I can (realistically) spend, I could trade that surplus for
    "free
    time". Standing joke is that I retired 40 years ago! :>

    That's what I did back east. I had all the work I wanted from
    established clients and word of mouth so I didn't have to go out and
    sell myself. That's not one of my skills.

    I did 'retire' when I was 40, got rid of most of my stuff, and hit the
    road west. I mostly traveled around the west for a year, then
    volunteered on a Forest Service mule ranch for a year, then had a fling
    with trucking. Not having any contacts in Montana I went back to direct employment. I've enjoyed it and still do but am currently negotiating a
    part time status. I'm not ready for real retirement but don't need 40
    hour weeks either mentally or financially.

    Keeping weird hours/calendar means no one knows *when* to expect a reply.
    (I quickly learned to give up the business line and force everyone to use email. I'm not real keen on having to drop what I'm doing just because YOU want something!)

    Yes, the weird hours. I lived in a small NH town that mostly shut down
    at 9 PM except Dunkin Donuts and one convenience store. I'd take a break
    at Zero Dark Thirty, go to the store, play a few games of Asteroids, and
    wander around town for a while.

    Email wasn't much of a thing in the '80s. I did come home once to find a meeting request thumb tacked to the door. Never liked phones. About 9
    years ago the company redid our end of the building. Through an
    oversight the phones were never replaced in engineering or QA. Nobody
    has complained.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jun 4 19:26:10 2022
    On 6/4/2022 2:08 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/04/2022 01:44 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Yeah, we had a national chain that used to bring all of their electronic
    kit to us for refurbishment/recycling. An 18 wheeler would show up every
    month. Driver would just "stand around" waiting for us to unload.

    Times I had to unload the truck by myself! Climb in, move pallet to rear
    of truck. Jump down. Get in forklift. Pull pallet off back of truck
    and drop it <somewhere>. Climb back in truck, move next pallet to rear
    of truck... lather, rinse, repeat.

    I picked up a load of those annoying newspaper inserts in Boulder,CO that were
    going to Baltimore.

    ?!

    Let's just say when I finally contacted the receiver I
    wasn't impressed when the instructions included 'turn left at the burned out van.' When I finally got there it was a store front operation. The 'staff' consisted of the owner walking up and down the block trying to recruit people sitting on the stoops drinking Mad Dog.

    The inserts were on pallets, probably 800 pounds each. The equipment consisted
    of one two-wheeled hand truck.

    First order of business was to lift a pallet jack onto the truck (hoping it wasn't packed all the way to the back door!)

    Folks experienced with a pallet jack can move a pallet in the space the
    pallet occupies -- plus a smidgen. (Folks INexperienced will prove to
    be mildly entertaining... for the first 10 minutes!)

    [I always dreaded having to spin a pallet *on* the liftgate... they always
    felt like they were "sloped downhill" and far too easy for the pallet to
    get away from you if not vigilant]

    The technique was to roll the pallets end over
    end until they fell off the truck when they would be wrestled onto the two wheeler.

    Hmmm... I guess *paper* wouldn't mind.

    The tires looked like they were about to blow. I pitched in to help,
    hoping to get out of the neighborhood while I still had 18 wheels. I overheard
    one of the recruits muttering 'never seen mf'ing truck driver work before'.

    That also illustrates one of the problems of cheap (relatively) transportation.
    Print inserts in CO to go into the Baltimore Sunday paper? Nobody in say, Maryland, can print advertisements that will wind up in the trash?

    I always used to wonder why this national chain would ship ALL of their kit
    to us; surely there must be folks who could process it "locally"?

    But, I think they owned their trucking fleet (thousands of stores, nationwide, that would need to be restocked regularly). So, after dropping off the
    latest load of merchandise, I suspect anything that had to go back to
    corporate was loaded on the empty truck as it returned to the distribution center. Repeat from "regional" to "national".

    And, wherever "corporate/national" happened to be, they could obviously
    push kit to the closest regional center near us (or any other destination).

    I used to wonder why the driver wouldn't offer to help. Then, realized
    he's probably getting paid to *wait* for me! <frown>

    We got paid a minimal flat rate for a stop but were getting paid by the mile, so no.

    I assumed he was an employee of the company giving us the donations.
    Never asked but others had offered suggestions ranging from "he's a lazy f*ck" to "liability insurance" (if he was injured doing something that technically wasn't his job).

    <shrug> Dunno. Don't know how that industry works nor how the corporation
    was structured.

    With a helper (one on pallet jack, other on forklift), it doesn't take
    long to empty a truck -- as you can just pile stuff up <wherever> and
    move it to its intended destination(s), later.

    Without? It gets old REAL fast!

    Some union drivers get paid by the hour but most OTR drivers are by the
    mile. Doing the necessary paperwork, waiting for the next load, and hanging around while the truck is loaded or unloaded is on your own time. While the yearly income isn't bad realistically you're lucky to make the minimum hourly wage.

    My solution was to work for myself. As it's relatively easy to make far
    more
    money than I can (realistically) spend, I could trade that surplus for
    "free
    time". Standing joke is that I retired 40 years ago! :>

    That's what I did back east. I had all the work I wanted from established clients and word of mouth so I didn't have to go out and sell myself. That's not one of my skills.

    I let friends/colleagues point clients to me with projects in which they thought I might have an interest (I'm not the sort that wants to solve
    a problem *twice*... move on to learn something new!). They also tended
    to know when I was getting off a project and not likely to want to start
    on another, any time soon.

    I did 'retire' when I was 40, got rid of most of my stuff, and hit the road west. I mostly traveled around the west for a year, then volunteered on a Forest Service mule ranch for a year, then had a fling with trucking. Not

    No family? Makes it a LOT easier (and more affordable) to call your own shots. Real estate is another boat anchor.

    OTOH, it's easy to accumulate lots of "stuff" which makes moves tedious
    (and costly). I filled an entire moving van, once.

    Getting *rid* of stuff is a tough discipline to learn. SWMBO claims I
    have to live another 20 years as it will take that long for me to shed
    all the stuff I've accumulated! <frown>

    [Presently working on figuring out how much stuff I can "store" *inside*
    other things (e.g., drives/memory/boards *in* workstations, paperwork
    *on* disks, etc.). While I've yearned for a basement, I can only imagine
    how much *worse* the volume of my "collection" would be! :< ]

    having any contacts in Montana I went back to direct employment. I've enjoyed it and still do but am currently negotiating a part time status. I'm not ready
    for real retirement but don't need 40 hour weeks either mentally or financially.

    Yeah, I've become far too "unsynchronized" with much of the world around me.
    I sleep when I'm tired and work when motivated. The position of the sun and day on calendar are largely immaterial (I try to "visit" my other half at least once each day). The idea of being "somewhere" at a particular time hasn't been a part of my routine for ~40 years, barring doctors' appointments, etc.

    I've found that I can't work "part time" -- on some schedule. E.g., "20 hours a week". Rather, I prefer taking on a job and working on it how and when I think best -- knowing what commitments I've made to its completion. So, if
    I feel like doing "something else" for a week, I don't feel like I owe
    someone 20 hours. I think that would require a lot of discipline ("OK,
    I put in my 20 hours for this week, now I can do something else...")

    Keeping weird hours/calendar means no one knows *when* to expect a reply.
    (I quickly learned to give up the business line and force everyone to use
    email. I'm not real keen on having to drop what I'm doing just because YOU >> want something!)

    Yes, the weird hours. I lived in a small NH town that mostly shut down at 9 PM
    except Dunkin Donuts and one convenience store. I'd take a break at Zero Dark Thirty, go to the store, play a few games of Asteroids, and wander around town
    for a while.

    I would do my grocery shopping in the wee hours while staff was restocking shelves. No hassles with traffic, parking, other customers, etc. Fresh produce was a problem but there are ways around that.

    Email wasn't much of a thing in the '80s.

    I would log in (modem) to client "bulletin boards" and check my mailbox for anything of interest. Not quite as anonymous as today's email (e.g., their sysop could tell when/if I had checked my mail) but still allowed me to decouple from "their schedule".

    I did come home once to find a
    meeting request thumb tacked to the door. Never liked phones.

    When I started on my own, I *assumed* it made sense to set up a business line (so I could ignore calls after hours AND keep my home phone private).

    But, I learned clients and potential clients would want to "shoot the shit"... ON MY DIME! ("Hey, I'm not getting paid to talk to you. All this time is coming out of my pocket!")

    And, too often, would posit "what ifs", looking for off the cuff estimates ("I'm not going to hold you to it" Yeah, sure!) for changes, other work, etc. "Look, I'm not your engineering department. Bounce your ideas off THEM
    during YOUR work hours"

    Email was a huge win as it cut all the chitter-chatter out of the
    interaction. An, it forced them to think about what they wanted to
    ask instead of trying to refine their questions interactively.

    (If you want me to help you develop a product concept, we can do that
    under a contract, but we're not "friends" who can bandy about ideas
    "for free")

    And, any technical issues were self-documenting. Including any disclaimers that were introduced in the discussion. (More than once, I'd refer to something that we'd previously discussed/agreed IN WRITING to "refresh"
    a defective/opportunistic memory)

    About 9 years ago
    the company redid our end of the building. Through an oversight the phones were
    never replaced in engineering or QA. Nobody has complained.

    Phones exist for the convenience of the *caller*. If you keep that in mind,
    it makes your "phone discipline" a lot easier to codify: "Do I want to
    field this call *FOR* this caller? Or, can he wait until it's convenient
    for ME?"

    [I have an "automated attendant" that screens our calls, here. So, we only hear it ring when it is someone that we want/need to talk with *NOW*. All others can be dealt with at our convenience (if that annoys the caller, then they can imagine how annoyed we are with their thinking that we should
    respond to *their* wishes!]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 4 23:33:31 2022
    On 06/04/2022 08:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
    No family? Makes it a LOT easier (and more affordable) to call your own shots.
    Real estate is another boat anchor.

    Definitely. I should have bought property here thirty years ago but I
    wasn't sure I was done roaming.

    OTOH, it's easy to accumulate lots of "stuff" which makes moves tedious
    (and costly). I filled an entire moving van, once.

    The move from NH was easy -- if it didn't fit in the pickup it didn't
    go. A guy was trying to flesh out a high school computer lab so he got
    all the hardware and books. Other books went to the library. A few
    hundred pounds of vinyl records may still be in a basement in Concord
    MA. I gave a friend the Sprite and a rowing dinghy I'd built was left on
    the beach above the high tide line. Other stuff went on the sidewalk.

    I've lived here for over thirty years and have collected too much stuff
    but I'm not planning to move again.


    I've found that I can't work "part time" -- on some schedule. E.g., "20 hours
    a week". Rather, I prefer taking on a job and working on it how and when I think best -- knowing what commitments I've made to its completion. So, if
    I feel like doing "something else" for a week, I don't feel like I owe someone 20 hours. I think that would require a lot of discipline ("OK,
    I put in my 20 hours for this week, now I can do something else...")

    That's part of the ongoing negotiation that will resume Monday. It might
    be 5 hours, it might be 50 depending on what needs doing and my
    enthusiasm, with a day or two where I will be available, if not
    necessarily working. Unless something is burning down they can save
    their issues up until Wednesday between 9 and 4 or something like that.

    I fell on the ice and broke my hip the end of January and was in a rehab facility for seven weeks and was putting in about 20 hours. The
    therapists were amused when they'd come for me and I'd say 'Wait a
    minute until I punch out.' If nothing else it was wonderful for my
    mental health. I'd been thinking about cutting down for a while and that
    showed it was feasible to work remotely on an irregular schedule.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jun 5 02:45:24 2022
    On 6/4/2022 10:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/04/2022 08:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
    No family? Makes it a LOT easier (and more affordable) to call your own
    shots.
    Real estate is another boat anchor.

    Definitely. I should have bought property here thirty years ago but I wasn't sure I was done roaming.

    I don't see it as "roaming" but, rather, "not having ties" (despite
    having ties "left behind" in many of the places I've lived). I used
    to love the lushness of New England. Now, find it confining and prefer
    the open spaces (and black skies).

    OTOH, it's easy to accumulate lots of "stuff" which makes moves tedious
    (and costly). I filled an entire moving van, once.

    The move from NH was easy -- if it didn't fit in the pickup it didn't go.

    My first move out of school cost the employer $15K. He wasn't prepared
    for THAT! :> (probably figured he was moving some kid out of a tiny
    dorm room)

    A guy
    was trying to flesh out a high school computer lab so he got all the hardware and books. Other books went to the library.

    I moved 80 "Xerox boxes" (10 ream paper) of *paperbacks*, here (I read A LOT!). Not counting my reference texts, paperwork (back when it WAS paper), etc.

    A friend had a son who was into science fiction. I offered them to him.
    The Dad was chagrined when he saw that it overfilled the back of his
    pickup truck! (make sure you understand what you're "accepting"
    before you accept it!) I had culled the ones I wanted to cherish
    down to about 4 boxes by that time.

    I've probably got 50 or 60 boxes of reference texts, still. But, have switched to epubs for my "recreational" reading as I can store thousands on an ereader that I can then store in a desk drawer! :>

    A few hundred pounds of vinyl
    records may still be in a basement in Concord MA.

    I have probably a comparable amount (plus laser video discs). And, a
    Beogram 8000 stored in a box for the day I think I need to digitize
    them (most being boots). Who knows, they may be worth money, at that time! (what's old is new)

    I gave a friend the Sprite
    and a rowing dinghy I'd built was left on the beach above the high tide line. Other stuff went on the sidewalk.

    I worked for Stanley for a while so have a boatload of handtools (a couple thousand pounds). It's next to impossible for me to discard/giveaway tools
    so that "collection" just keeps growing. (I can fill two of the 6 ft tall rolling toolchests, easily -- without putting anything that is powered
    in the mix!)

    I'm interested in assistive technology so have quite a collection of
    such appliances/tools -- including a pair of electric wheelchairs,
    braillers, etc. <https://www.easechair.com/sites/default/files/gallery/permobil-m300_46.jpg>

    [You *really* don't want to ever NEED such a device! Aside from the
    initial novelty of "personal-scale motorized transport", it is a dreadful
    way to exist!]

    Lots of "bigger" bits of kit for my automation system (e.g., 5KVA UPS w/battery boxes).

    And, my "recreation" is fixing things that are otherwise headed to the tip. Recent additions are a power washer and (today) a little 42cc chain saw
    (clean carb, fix oiler, "make pretty" and then set aside)

    But, by far, electronic things consume the most space. As I have ready
    access to lots of discarded kit, I can't help but pull select items to
    tinker with (as "distractions"). And, once fixed, put them on a shelf.
    (I've some 20 spare monitors -- plus another 10 deployed; several LCD
    TVs -- discarded the plasma as it throws off too much heat; 6 workstations;
    a dozen UPSs; a few servers; hundreds of disks; etc.) In my line of
    work, much of these things become "references" (e.g., I have half a dozen different commercial speech synthesizers against which to evaluate my own; different development systems to check for code portability; etc.)

    [Presently working to convince myself that I *don't* want the three
    10ft wide motorized projection screens I've been offered! ("Shirley,
    there MUST be a use for them??")]

    And, that's after discarding (donating) most of my test/prototyping equipment (I kept a Leister, a couple of DSOs, a couple of logic analyzers and a programmable power supply)

    [Amusingly, there never seems to be an "empty" space after going on a
    discard binge! <frown> ]

    I've lived here for over thirty years and have collected too much stuff but I'm
    not planning to move again.

    In my case, its consideration for my other half; she lives in fear that
    I'll drop dead, some day, leaving her with all this "stuff" to sort out.

    "Throw it all away; I'll be dead, what will *I* care?"
    "Then why can't we throw it out NOW?!"
    "I'm not dead, yet!" <grin>

    I've found that I can't work "part time" -- on some schedule. E.g., "20
    hours
    a week". Rather, I prefer taking on a job and working on it how and when I >> think best -- knowing what commitments I've made to its completion. So, if >> I feel like doing "something else" for a week, I don't feel like I owe
    someone 20 hours. I think that would require a lot of discipline ("OK,
    I put in my 20 hours for this week, now I can do something else...")

    That's part of the ongoing negotiation that will resume Monday. It might be 5 hours, it might be 50 depending on what needs doing and my enthusiasm, with a day or two where I will be available, if not necessarily working. Unless something is burning down they can save their issues up until Wednesday between
    9 and 4 or something like that.

    I'm usually involved in a design (or specification) process. So, it's hard
    to just "turn off" those thought processes. And, not fair to any other projects that are running concurrently if they have to compete for gray matter.

    So, I prefer to do fixed-cost quotes ("Sorry, no changes!") where all I have
    to do is ensure I finish *that* work before the agreed upon deadline (and discipline myself not to get too "creative" exploring odd design options)

    I fell on the ice

    "Ice"? What's that?

    and broke my hip the end of January and was in a rehab
    facility for seven weeks

    Bummer. I'm told hips are a real pisser.

    I was laid up for several months -- couldn't even use a laptop as
    that would require sitting up. I dug out a tablet and did my
    work with that. Tedious (stylus without keyboard) but at least gave
    me an "outlet"!

    and was putting in about 20 hours. The therapists were
    amused when they'd come for me and I'd say 'Wait a minute until I punch out.' If nothing else it was wonderful for my mental health. I'd been thinking about
    cutting down for a while and that showed it was feasible to work remotely on an
    irregular schedule.

    PHBs are often the biggest impediment to such work. I guess they must
    feel that if they can't *see* the folks "under" them, then what purpose
    do THEY fill?

    But, personal discipline also plays a big role. I've known folks who
    couldn't cut it "solo" because they couldn't focus on the problems
    they'd contracted to solve -- always finding distractions, instead.

    Others never knew when to "settle" ("shoot the engineer") on a design.

    Still others never "challenged" themselves... settling for the
    same ol', same ol', over and over (never trying anything revolutionary
    or that has a significant probability of failing!) until they were
    just rehashing old designs and of little value.

    [Doing fixed cost jobs means I can cut the client out of the decision
    making loop. If *I* want to take a risk and explore some new approach,
    the risk falls entirely on me, without his potential to veto!]

    Good luck with your negotiations. And, more importantly, finding
    a way to then make any such arrangement work for *you*!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 5 13:29:02 2022
    On 06/05/2022 03:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/4/2022 10:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/04/2022 08:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
    No family? Makes it a LOT easier (and more affordable) to call your own >>> shots.
    Real estate is another boat anchor.

    Definitely. I should have bought property here thirty years ago but I
    wasn't sure I was done roaming.

    I don't see it as "roaming" but, rather, "not having ties" (despite
    having ties "left behind" in many of the places I've lived). I used
    to love the lushness of New England. Now, find it confining and prefer
    the open spaces (and black skies).

    I do get nostalgic for forests with other species than Ponderosa pine
    and Douglas fir. This last time I was back to the area was 2004. It had
    been an exceptionally wet summer to start with but the humidity was
    oppressive. I was looking for information about a historical gas house
    in Troy NY when I clicked on a Zillow link out of curiosity. Of course
    you'd have to see the houses but there was a good selection for under
    100K. That confirmed by 2004 observation that everybody had left and
    never came back.

    Tell me about black skies... Sun has been optional for a while. 'We
    need the water' is partially true Lush undergrowth in June tends to lead
    to hellish fires in August.



    I've probably got 50 or 60 boxes of reference texts, still. But, have switched
    to epubs for my "recreational" reading as I can store thousands on an
    ereader
    that I can then store in a desk drawer! :>

    You've got me outclassed completely. I seldom buy a hardcopy book
    anymore. I've used about 2GB of 4GB on my main Kindle and I have no idea
    how many books that represents other than 'a lot'.

    I've even stopped buying hardcopy references. In the software field,
    except for the basics, they're obsolete before the ink is dry.


    I'm interested in assistive technology so have quite a collection of
    such appliances/tools -- including a pair of electric wheelchairs,
    braillers, etc. <https://www.easechair.com/sites/default/files/gallery/permobil-m300_46.jpg>


    [You *really* don't want to ever NEED such a device! Aside from the
    initial novelty of "personal-scale motorized transport", it is a dreadful
    way to exist!]

    A friend is quadriplegic and while it's in no way optimal it's better
    than the alternative. He has enough mobility that he can drive a
    converted van with the chair latched into place and type using pencils
    in custom splits. Still it sucks. I've often made little repairs to the
    van's ramp or latching mechanism. He knows what needs to be done but
    can't. Of course there is the frustration of depending on PA's for
    transfers, shopping, meal preparation, and so forth.

    The irony is he would be economically better off vegetating than
    choosing to remain productive.

    In my case, its consideration for my other half; she lives in fear that
    I'll drop dead, some day, leaving her with all this "stuff" to sort out.

    "Throw it all away; I'll be dead, what will *I* care?"
    "Then why can't we throw it out NOW?!"
    "I'm not dead, yet!" <grin>

    One thing that saves me is limited square feet. If I had unlimited area
    I would be screwed. At one point I contemplated buying an old filling
    station, the sort with a couple of bays and a life. I'm a minimalist so converting the office and storage to living space wouldn't be a problem
    and I'd have plenty of work space. The fly in that ointment is they have
    EPA time bombs with the underground storage tanks that gets passed to
    the current owner.


    Bummer. I'm told hips are a real pisser.

    My grandmother broke her hip in the '50s. Back then they might as well
    have taken her out back and shot her. Now they nail you back together.

    https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html

    There are two small incisions, each about 1" long. I asked the surgeon
    how he pulled that off and he started talking about jigs and reamers.
    The whole deal looks and sounds like something I might do to fix a break
    on one of the bikes.

    I had to accept that I realistically couldn't return home without being
    a burden on friends so I went into a rehab facility. Fortunately I could
    get around with a walker. The surgeon restricted me to 25% weight
    bearing, which the PTs reminded me of whenever I started getting around
    too well. When he moved me to full weight bearing as tolerated I
    switched to a cane and was out in a week. Not long after I discarded the
    cane although I do bring my trekking poles when I'm out on trails just
    in case.

    The rehab was a wing of a nursing home so I got to see that side of
    life. I watched 'Wild Horses' with Robert Duvall last night and there
    was a trailed for another one of his movies on the DVD, 'A Night in Old Mexico'. One of his lines was "I'm more afraid of winding up with
    somebody spoon feeding me oatmeal than dying". Yeah and hell yeah.

    I was laid up for several months -- couldn't even use a laptop as
    that would require sitting up. I dug out a tablet and did my
    work with that. Tedious (stylus without keyboard) but at least gave
    me an "outlet"!

    Fortunately I could get up and sit in a chair, using the overbed table
    for a desk. I had a Dell laptop and the rehab had a solid WiFi
    connection so I was good to go.

    PHBs are often the biggest impediment to such work. I guess they must
    feel that if they can't *see* the folks "under" them, then what purpose
    do THEY fill?

    Even before covid we had some people working remotely. That would come
    up in the conversation frequently -- what exactly is xxxx doing. When
    most people went remote for covid they had to submit daily reports of
    what they were working on. When they were physically on site it was
    always assumed as long as everything was going smoothly people were
    doing what they were supposed to be doing.

    But, personal discipline also plays a big role. I've known folks who couldn't cut it "solo" because they couldn't focus on the problems
    they'd contracted to solve -- always finding distractions, instead.

    That can be a problem. One person I hired was going to move and be on
    site but because of covid remained in Boise. Things were getting done
    and we cut him loose. That happens when people are physically in the
    office too. The rule of thumb is you're lucky to get 6 hours of
    productive work in an 8 hour day.


    [Doing fixed cost jobs means I can cut the client out of the decision
    making loop. If *I* want to take a risk and explore some new approach,
    the risk falls entirely on me, without his potential to veto!]

    That works better with hardware projects with a stated, quantifiable
    goal. There have been a lot of fancy project management schemes over the
    years but with software the real process is:

    1. Client tells you what they want
    2. You prepare a proposal and submit it
    3. Client signs off without reading it
    4. You proceed to implement the agreed on design
    5. You deliver the product
    6. Client realizes that wasn't what they really wanted
    7. rinse and repeat

    Agile gets a lot of hype and often becomes a mantra for management
    rather than being practiced but it does recognize the design process as
    being highly iterative.

    In the classic waterfall process the requirements and design phases tend
    to be so protracted and bloody that the delivery phase happens
    regardless (q.v. F-35, Zumwalt, ...)

    Admittedly prototyping battleships isn't as feasible as prototyping
    software systems.

    Good luck with your negotiations. And, more importantly, finding
    a way to then make any such arrangement work for *you*!

    Thanks. I've reached that point in life where stuff has to work for me.
    It's not being a curmudgeon, just realizing compromises for long term
    goals are a moot point when there ain't no long term statistically.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jun 5 16:54:19 2022
    On 6/5/2022 12:29 PM, rbowman wrote:

    I don't see it as "roaming" but, rather, "not having ties" (despite
    having ties "left behind" in many of the places I've lived). I used
    to love the lushness of New England. Now, find it confining and prefer
    the open spaces (and black skies).

    I do get nostalgic for forests with other species than Ponderosa pine and Douglas fir. This last time I was back to the area was 2004. It had been an exceptionally wet summer to start with but the humidity was oppressive. I was looking for information about a historical gas house in Troy NY when I clicked
    on a Zillow link out of curiosity. Of course you'd have to see the houses but there was a good selection for under 100K. That confirmed by 2004 observation
    that everybody had left and never came back.

    I miss the variety of thought that was common back east. Many ethnicities, cultures, etc. The West is more homogeneous. Too much group think -- or, lack of desire to express alternative opinions. Or, maybe lack of "drive"? <shrug>

    But, my early career was in Cambridge and, later, the 128 beltway so that's probably several sigma above the mean.

    Tell me about black skies... Sun has been optional for a while. 'We need the water' is partially true Lush undergrowth in June tends to lead to hellish fires in August.

    The saying here is "Nothing grows... except the stuff that DOES and it
    grows REALLY FAST!" But, never fast enough to survive a good fire. So,
    while you want the rain, you also fear its consequences.

    I've probably got 50 or 60 boxes of reference texts, still. But, have
    switched
    to epubs for my "recreational" reading as I can store thousands on an
    ereader
    that I can then store in a desk drawer! :>

    You've got me outclassed completely. I seldom buy a hardcopy book anymore. I've
    used about 2GB of 4GB on my main Kindle and I have no idea how many books that
    represents other than 'a lot'.

    I've several Nooks, each with a 32G microSD (cuz things won't fit on a single nook). But, it's a lousy interface designed for folks who have small libraries and want to see a dozen titles at a time. OTOH, I much prefer reading
    (for entertainment) via this form instead of "paper". It's nice to just
    be able to set it down and resume from where you left off, even in a darkened room, car, etc!

    I've not purchased a "print" book in years -- save for a few classic references (_Mechanisms for Reliable Distributed Real-Time Operating Systems_, _Applied Cryptography_, etc.) or oddball references for specific projects (_Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker_, _From Text to Speech: The MITtalk System_, etc.). While I can find ebook versions of them, I prefer a "real" book when I need
    to *study* something. Likewise, I will print PDFs of research papers to read and annotate, storing just the electronic version for the long haul (discarding the print copy once "consumed").

    I've even stopped buying hardcopy references. In the software field, except for
    the basics, they're obsolete before the ink is dry.

    Last hardcopy reference/standard I bought was a SCSI document (decades ago). Too much is available on-line to clutter up shelves with this stuff.

    And, much easier to search an electronic document than a print one.

    I'm interested in assistive technology so have quite a collection of
    such appliances/tools -- including a pair of electric wheelchairs,
    braillers, etc.
    <https://www.easechair.com/sites/default/files/gallery/permobil-m300_46.jpg> >>
    [You *really* don't want to ever NEED such a device! Aside from the
    initial novelty of "personal-scale motorized transport", it is a dreadful
    way to exist!]

    A friend is quadriplegic and while it's in no way optimal it's better than the
    alternative. He has enough mobility that he can drive a converted van with the
    chair latched into place and type using pencils in custom splits. Still it sucks.

    It's not much better even for folks who are "merely" disabled. I take one of the chairs out for a quick run around the neighborhood, from time to time, to give the batteries some "exercise". Despite the suspension and ROHO seat cushion, I always feel like I've been brutalized by the process. Maybe
    driving indoors is less demanding?

    I've often made little repairs to the van's ramp or latching mechanism.
    He knows what needs to be done but can't. Of course there is the frustration of
    depending on PA's for transfers, shopping, meal preparation, and so forth.

    And, the inherent reliance on the chair itself. If it doesn't want to run, NOW, what choice do you have? A second chair?? What if you've motored to
    a spot a mile from home when the chair shits the bed? (and, why can't the chair tell you how many "miles" are left in the "tank"? Every coulomb in
    and out of the battery was observable by the chair's controller, why wasn't
    it keeping track??)

    And, the chairs aren't designed to make maintenance easy for ABLE-BODIED folks, let alone folks with particular mobility constraints. E.g., to replace the batteries on mine, you have to run the elevator *up* to get the seat off of
    the top of the battery compartment. Then, remove the shroud. Then, each of the 50 pound batteries.

    If the batteries are *dead*, then the elevator won't function! So, you have to remove the seat cushion and seating plate. Then, thread a long rod through
    a hole in the seat frame to manually engage the elevator mechanism, crank the seat up and continue from that point.

    Clearly designed by someone who expected NEVER to have to service his own chair! Which is why they quote $1100 for a battery change. <rolls eyes>

    [But, then again, it's likely INSURANCE money paying the bill... so, the
    market is distorted]

    The irony is he would be economically better off vegetating than choosing to remain productive.

    In my case, its consideration for my other half; she lives in fear that
    I'll drop dead, some day, leaving her with all this "stuff" to sort out.

    "Throw it all away; I'll be dead, what will *I* care?"
    "Then why can't we throw it out NOW?!"
    "I'm not dead, yet!" <grin>

    One thing that saves me is limited square feet. If I had unlimited area I would
    be screwed.

    You'd be amazed at how many places you can find to stash things! :>
    I've stuff under the beds, on top of bookcases, under workbenches/desks,
    etc. As I only wear T-shirts (save for the odd wedding/funeral), my
    closets aren't wasted on storing clothing. :> If we had a basement,
    I'd be sunk!

    The temperature extremes in the garage limit what I'd be willing to
    store out there so anything of value (and "perishable") has to find
    a spot in the house in which to hide.

    At one point I contemplated buying an old filling station, the sort
    with a couple of bays and a life.

    Ha! I'd always thought of an old "elementary school" -- the kind
    that has long halls and all the rooms on one level. You could set up
    each classroom for a particular use instead of having to set-up, use,
    tear-down *between* uses.

    I'm a minimalist so converting the office and
    storage to living space wouldn't be a problem and I'd have plenty of work space. The fly in that ointment is they have EPA time bombs with the underground storage tanks that gets passed to the current owner.

    Yup. A friend "solved" that problem on his commercial property
    by building over the areas that were once exposed soil. Amusing
    to think of how cavalier we used to be with disposing of used motor
    oil, industrial solvents, etc.

    Bummer. I'm told hips are a real pisser.

    My grandmother broke her hip in the '50s. Back then they might as well have taken her out back and shot her. Now they nail you back together.

    https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html

    There are two small incisions, each about 1" long. I asked the surgeon how he pulled that off and he started talking about jigs and reamers. The whole deal looks and sounds like something I might do to fix a break on one of the bikes.

    Yeah, a friend had a hip done recently. The positions in which they put his limbs didn't seem physically possible. But, I guess with the hip joint out
    of the equation (temporarily), a lot is possible!

    I had to accept that I realistically couldn't return home without being a burden on friends so I went into a rehab facility. Fortunately I could get around with a walker. The surgeon restricted me to 25% weight bearing, which the PTs reminded me of whenever I started getting around too well. When he moved me to full weight bearing as tolerated I switched to a cane and was out in a week. Not long after I discarded the cane although I do bring my trekking
    poles when I'm out on trails just in case.

    I limit my walking to indoor areas and neighborhood sidewalks/streets.
    I'm not keen on turning an ankle by stepping on a stone that dislodges
    beneath me. Or, tripping over a log. Or, encountering a bobcat, bear, javelina, etc.

    And, in my case, it's just exercise -- there's nothing "enjoyable"
    about it (save for any neighbors I encounter along the way) -- so get
    it done as quickly as possible!

    The rehab was a wing of a nursing home so I got to see that side of life. I watched 'Wild Horses' with Robert Duvall last night and there was a trailed for
    another one of his movies on the DVD, 'A Night in Old Mexico'. One of his lines was "I'm more afraid of winding up with somebody spoon feeding me oatmeal
    than dying". Yeah and hell yeah.

    Sadly, there's little one can do to avoid that -- save dying young!

    I am always amused by folks who go to such great lengths to (have the
    illusion of) exert control over their environment -- and, by extension,
    the hazards they might face -- when there are so many other things
    that can screw you over that you can't control, nor predict (e.g.,
    all the money in the world isn't going to prevent a stroke, heart
    attack, drunk driver, etc.)

    So, I take the attitude of making the most of the time that I *think*
    I (likely) have. Spending it making money ("for a sense of security")
    is pretty far down the list! :>

    I was laid up for several months -- couldn't even use a laptop as
    that would require sitting up. I dug out a tablet and did my
    work with that. Tedious (stylus without keyboard) but at least gave
    me an "outlet"!

    Fortunately I could get up and sit in a chair, using the overbed table for a desk. I had a Dell laptop and the rehab had a solid WiFi connection so I was good to go.

    In my case, getting out of bed was a chore. So, reserved for the essentials (bathroom breaks). The rest of the time, get into a tolerable position
    and position the tablet someplace where I can access it.

    PHBs are often the biggest impediment to such work. I guess they must
    feel that if they can't *see* the folks "under" them, then what purpose
    do THEY fill?

    Even before covid we had some people working remotely. That would come up in the conversation frequently -- what exactly is xxxx doing. When most people went remote for covid they had to submit daily reports of what they were working on. When they were physically on site it was always assumed as long as
    everything was going smoothly people were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

    If you don't trust your employees, then why did you hire them?

    When I've been in managerial positions, my attitude (to my charges)
    was always: "Let me know what you need and I'll deal with the organization/personalities to get it for you". What was unsaid was
    "and I expect you to meet your responsibilities". The idea of
    having to play nanny with "professionals" is anathema to me!

    But, personal discipline also plays a big role. I've known folks who
    couldn't cut it "solo" because they couldn't focus on the problems
    they'd contracted to solve -- always finding distractions, instead.

    That can be a problem. One person I hired was going to move and be on site but
    because of covid remained in Boise. Things were getting done and we cut him loose. That happens when people are physically in the office too. The rule of thumb is you're lucky to get 6 hours of productive work in an 8 hour day.

    My B-in-L works for a firm that actively cuts staff until things "stop working". Then, they incrementally add staff back until things are working, again. Seems a bit Draconian but I guess it works -- in the long run.

    A colleague used to say "you can't do anything in 8 hours". Which, is somewhat true. But, the extension (2*8, 3*8, etc.) isn't.

    Working on my own is incredibly more effective as you get rid of all
    the silly meetings, distractions, etc. And, only have to work when
    you feel productive (instead of some silly schedule imposed by bankers)

    [Doing fixed cost jobs means I can cut the client out of the decision
    making loop. If *I* want to take a risk and explore some new approach,
    the risk falls entirely on me, without his potential to veto!]

    That works better with hardware projects with a stated, quantifiable goal. There have been a lot of fancy project management schemes over the years but with software the real process is:

    1. Client tells you what they want
    2. You prepare a proposal and submit it
    3. Client signs off without reading it
    4. You proceed to implement the agreed on design
    5. You deliver the product
    6. Client realizes that wasn't what they really wanted
    7. rinse and repeat

    That's only because folks LET that happen. If you don't know what the hell
    you want, then why even get started on it?

    Before I take on a project, I learn as much as I can about the application domain and application, itself. Then, interview the principles to identify their ideas as to what the goal is imagined to be.

    When it comes time to codify a spec, I ask very specific questions:
    "What do you want to happen in THIS situation?" If they respond,
    "I don't care", then I state "In situation X, the device can burst into
    flames" -- or something equally alarming. That usually is enough to
    draw their attention to the fact that they really *do* care; otherwise,
    I will implement any "don't care" scenarios in whatever manner is
    easiest for me -- in my fixed cost estimate! (if YOU don't want to
    think about it, then why should *I*?)

    People *can* make up their minds when they have to. They just don't want
    to think ahead. They'd rather tell you (later) what they DON'T want,
    after you've done it!

    [For fixed cost contracts, "after" is their problem, not mine! :>
    And, if I've done things in the design that make your subsequent
    choices difficult to implement, then who's fault is that?!]

    I've watched 6- and 7- figure projects "finished" and then *canceled*... without even trying to make a sale. Because it took a reification
    of an idea for folks to discover why it wasn't practical?? C'mon,
    what sort of imagination are you lacking?? You can imagine a product
    LIKE this... you just can't (fully) imagine THIS product! <frown>

    [To be fair, I get involved in a lot of proof of concept prototypes
    so I often know more about the actual application than the client.
    Because I've thought about it beyond the "gee, wouldn't it be nice if..." stage]

    Agile gets a lot of hype and often becomes a mantra for management rather than
    being practiced but it does recognize the design process as being highly iterative.

    I don't believe in Agile, in practice. I don't believe folks are willing to discard as much as they SHOULD (to be "safe") on each iteration. There's too much incentive to rationalize that some "finished" piece can be reused, as is. Or, "patched" instead of reengineered.

    I always think of a friend's custom home. He opted to move an exit to
    the deck. Builder complied. When house was built, the emergency escape
    from the basement window was located BELOW the decking -- due to the
    relocated doorway. Ooops! Do you cut a new escape in the cement foundation? Do you put a "hatch" in the decking above the basement window? Who's responsibility was it to notice this problem and make the necessary
    adjustments to the design to avoid the problem manifesting later?

    In the classic waterfall process the requirements and design phases tend to be
    so protracted and bloody that the delivery phase happens regardless (q.v. F-35, Zumwalt, ...)

    That's a matter of scale. Imagine iteratively designing a fighter jet's controls... and, later discovering that some assumption made on iteration N
    was no longer valid for iteration N+m -- but, no one noticed! Until the aircraft fell out of the sky.

    [Do we have to go all the way to mars before we realize there's a priority inversion problem in a design?]

    Look at the *manual* for a product as it is a reflection of the product's complexity. A great many "products" are very easy to express in that
    form, thus a reflection of their limited complexity.

    Admittedly prototyping battleships isn't as feasible as prototyping software systems.

    Good luck with your negotiations. And, more importantly, finding
    a way to then make any such arrangement work for *you*!

    Thanks. I've reached that point in life where stuff has to work for me. It's not being a curmudgeon, just realizing compromises for long term goals are a moot point when there ain't no long term statistically.

    Exactly. It's an interesting place to be (in life); you have the skills
    and resources ($) to do many things -- but not (necessarily) the *time* required to do so. It makes you think hard about where you want to spend
    your time -- and how willing you are to let someone else (PHB) dictate
    that to you!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 5 21:30:33 2022
    On 06/05/2022 05:54 PM, Don Y wrote:

    I miss the variety of thought that was common back east. Many ethnicities, cultures, etc. The West is more homogeneous. Too much group think --
    or, lack
    of desire to express alternative opinions. Or, maybe lack of "drive"? <shrug>

    But, my early career was in Cambridge and, later, the 128 beltway so that's probably several sigma above the mean.

    A little bit but I grew up near Troy NY and it had its share of
    diversity. Somehow it seemed to work better than it has lately. People
    had ethnic pride but there was more sense of humor involved.

    It's changed a little over the last 30 years I've lived here but Montana
    is pretty homogeneous and that's even within the European sector. It's
    mostly north European with Germans leading the pack. It's a local joke
    that the Sons of Norway is mostly Germans. The other 6.5% is the NA's
    but they don't have much cultural impact. There is a Hmong community for historical reasons involving General Vang and the CIA.

    A friend and I were talking about that last week with regards to
    restaurants. People like ethnic restaurants -- as long as they aren't
    too ethnic. Some recent middle Eastern arrivals have been running food
    trucks. I hope they make a go of it since I like manakish and those
    pastries that are like baklava but not as messy. My favorite Indian
    restaurant didn't last too long since it was too Indian but the dumbed
    down version run by an Anglo is going strong.



    I've several Nooks, each with a 32G microSD (cuz things won't fit on a
    single
    nook). But, it's a lousy interface designed for folks who have small libraries
    and want to see a dozen titles at a time. OTOH, I much prefer reading
    (for entertainment) via this form instead of "paper". It's nice to just
    be able to set it down and resume from where you left off, even in a
    darkened
    room, car, etc!

    I've got a Nook mostly because there is a brick & mortar B&N around the
    corner from where I work. In the early days of Amazon their ability to
    produce the books they advertised was sketchy and I preferred B&N but convenience won me over. I can download a book to my Kindle and order a
    case of cat food all at once. To get back on topic, convenience uber alles.

    Cryptography_, etc.) or oddball references for specific projects (_Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker_, _From Text to Speech: The MITtalk System_, etc.).

    Pai Gow Poker?? I'm not a card player but when I first got into Windows
    I did a poker app to familiarize myself with the Windows API. Up until
    then I'd done embedded or command line based programming and the whole
    'make it look pretty' was new to me. In the process I learned more about
    poker than I really needed to know.

    And, much easier to search an electronic document than a print one.

    I remember reading about hypertext back when it didn't really exist and thinking what a great idea it was particular with hardcopy books with appendices designed by illiterate monkeys.



    It's not much better even for folks who are "merely" disabled. I take
    one of
    the chairs out for a quick run around the neighborhood, from time to
    time, to
    give the batteries some "exercise". Despite the suspension and ROHO seat cushion, I always feel like I've been brutalized by the process. Maybe driving indoors is less demanding?

    I suppose that's an advantage of not having feeling from the neck down.
    He's never complained about the ride.

    And, the inherent reliance on the chair itself. If it doesn't want to run, NOW, what choice do you have? A second chair?? What if you've motored to
    a spot a mile from home when the chair shits the bed? (and, why can't the chair tell you how many "miles" are left in the "tank"? Every coulomb in
    and out of the battery was observable by the chair's controller, why wasn't it keeping track??)

    There is that. When he upgrades he does keep his old chair for backup.
    Being a niche product some of the components aren't available off the
    shelf. There have been a couple of times when the drive failed. Even
    after releasing the drive pushing one any distance is a workout.

    And, the chairs aren't designed to make maintenance easy for ABLE-BODIED folks,
    let alone folks with particular mobility constraints. E.g., to replace the batteries on mine, you have to run the elevator *up* to get the seat off of the top of the battery compartment. Then, remove the shroud. Then,
    each of
    the 50 pound batteries.

    If the batteries are *dead*, then the elevator won't function! So, you
    have to
    remove the seat cushion and seating plate. Then, thread a long rod through
    a hole in the seat frame to manually engage the elevator mechanism,
    crank the
    seat up and continue from that point.

    Several times the mechanic showed up to service the chair at work. The batteries were never dead but working around defective limit switches
    and so forth made most fixes a several hour project.

    Clearly designed by someone who expected NEVER to have to service his own chair! Which is why they quote $1100 for a battery change. <rolls eyes>

    [But, then again, it's likely INSURANCE money paying the bill... so, the market is distorted.

    Definitely. I think his last new chair was north of $25,000 and motor controllers, actuators and so forth are priced to match. I'm not 100%
    certain but I think it's a Permobil so many of the parts are from
    Sweden. Of course nothing is a standard part that you could order from Grainger.


    You'd be amazed at how many places you can find to stash things! :>
    I've stuff under the beds, on top of bookcases, under workbenches/desks,
    etc. As I only wear T-shirts (save for the odd wedding/funeral), my
    closets aren't wasted on storing clothing. :> If we had a basement,
    I'd be sunk!

    Not amazed at all. I built my bed so the whole 'mattress' component is
    hinged and swings up to provide easy access to the storage compartments.

    Ha! I'd always thought of an old "elementary school" -- the kind
    that has long halls and all the rooms on one level. You could set up
    each classroom for a particular use instead of having to set-up, use, tear-down *between* uses.

    That is the biggest annoyance. Currently half of my 'desk' (a hollow
    core door) is taken over by a a pile of Arduinos, wireless modules,
    motor controllers and so forth from a robotics project with unrelated
    bits and pieces mixed in.

    Yup. A friend "solved" that problem on his commercial property
    by building over the areas that were once exposed soil. Amusing
    to think of how cavalier we used to be with disposing of used motor
    oil, industrial solvents, etc.

    In the city there a stenciled markers around the storm drains reminding
    people the aquifer is about 25' down. Several of the lumber operations
    and the pulp mill left behind their legacies. The pulp mill is
    particularly problematic since the settling ponds are next to the river.

    I'm as guilty as anyone. Old motor oil is great for keeping the dust
    down in a gravel driveway.










    Bummer. I'm told hips are a real pisser.

    My grandmother broke her hip in the '50s. Back then they might as well
    have taken her out back and shot her. Now they nail you back together.

    https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html

    There are two small incisions, each about 1" long. I asked the surgeon
    how he pulled that off and he started talking about jigs and reamers.
    The whole deal looks and sounds like something I might do to fix a
    break on one of the bikes.

    Yeah, a friend had a hip done recently. The positions in which they put
    his
    limbs didn't seem physically possible. But, I guess with the hip joint out of the equation (temporarily), a lot is possible!

    I had to accept that I realistically couldn't return home without
    being a burden on friends so I went into a rehab facility. Fortunately
    I could get around with a walker. The surgeon restricted me to 25%
    weight bearing, which the PTs reminded me of whenever I started
    getting around too well. When he moved me to full weight bearing as
    tolerated I switched to a cane and was out in a week. Not long after I
    discarded the cane although I do bring my trekking poles when I'm out
    on trails just in case.

    I limit my walking to indoor areas and neighborhood sidewalks/streets.
    I'm not keen on turning an ankle by stepping on a stone that dislodges beneath me. Or, tripping over a log. Or, encountering a bobcat, bear, javelina, etc.

    And, in my case, it's just exercise -- there's nothing "enjoyable"
    about it (save for any neighbors I encounter along the way) -- so get
    it done as quickly as possible!

    The rehab was a wing of a nursing home so I got to see that side of
    life. I watched 'Wild Horses' with Robert Duvall last night and there
    was a trailed for another one of his movies on the DVD, 'A Night in
    Old Mexico'. One of his lines was "I'm more afraid of winding up with
    somebody spoon feeding me oatmeal than dying". Yeah and hell yeah.

    Sadly, there's little one can do to avoid that -- save dying young!

    I am always amused by folks who go to such great lengths to (have the illusion of) exert control over their environment -- and, by extension,
    the hazards they might face -- when there are so many other things
    that can screw you over that you can't control, nor predict (e.g.,
    all the money in the world isn't going to prevent a stroke, heart
    attack, drunk driver, etc.)

    So, I take the attitude of making the most of the time that I *think*
    I (likely) have. Spending it making money ("for a sense of security")
    is pretty far down the list! :>

    I was laid up for several months -- couldn't even use a laptop as
    that would require sitting up. I dug out a tablet and did my
    work with that. Tedious (stylus without keyboard) but at least gave
    me an "outlet"!

    Fortunately I could get up and sit in a chair, using the overbed table
    for a desk. I had a Dell laptop and the rehab had a solid WiFi
    connection so I was good to go.

    In my case, getting out of bed was a chore. So, reserved for the
    essentials
    (bathroom breaks). The rest of the time, get into a tolerable position
    and position the tablet someplace where I can access it.

    PHBs are often the biggest impediment to such work. I guess they must
    feel that if they can't *see* the folks "under" them, then what purpose
    do THEY fill?

    Even before covid we had some people working remotely. That would come
    up in the conversation frequently -- what exactly is xxxx doing. When
    most people went remote for covid they had to submit daily reports of
    what they were working on. When they were physically on site it was
    always assumed as long as everything was going smoothly people were
    doing what they were supposed to be doing.

    If you don't trust your employees, then why did you hire them?

    When I've been in managerial positions, my attitude (to my charges)
    was always: "Let me know what you need and I'll deal with the organization/personalities to get it for you". What was unsaid was
    "and I expect you to meet your responsibilities". The idea of
    having to play nanny with "professionals" is anathema to me!

    But, personal discipline also plays a big role. I've known folks who
    couldn't cut it "solo" because they couldn't focus on the problems
    they'd contracted to solve -- always finding distractions, instead.

    That can be a problem. One person I hired was going to move and be on
    site but because of covid remained in Boise. Things were getting done
    and we cut him loose. That happens when people are physically in the
    office too. The rule of thumb is you're lucky to get 6 hours of
    productive work in an 8 hour day.

    My B-in-L works for a firm that actively cuts staff until things "stop working". Then, they incrementally add staff back until things are
    working,
    again. Seems a bit Draconian but I guess it works -- in the long run.

    A colleague used to say "you can't do anything in 8 hours". Which, is somewhat
    true. But, the extension (2*8, 3*8, etc.) isn't.

    Working on my own is incredibly more effective as you get rid of all
    the silly meetings, distractions, etc. And, only have to work when
    you feel productive (instead of some silly schedule imposed by bankers)

    [Doing fixed cost jobs means I can cut the client out of the decision
    making loop. If *I* want to take a risk and explore some new approach,
    the risk falls entirely on me, without his potential to veto!]

    That works better with hardware projects with a stated, quantifiable
    goal. There have been a lot of fancy project management schemes over
    the years but with software the real process is:

    1. Client tells you what they want
    2. You prepare a proposal and submit it
    3. Client signs off without reading it
    4. You proceed to implement the agreed on design
    5. You deliver the product
    6. Client realizes that wasn't what they really wanted
    7. rinse and repeat

    That's only because folks LET that happen. If you don't know what the hell you want, then why even get started on it?

    Before I take on a project, I learn as much as I can about the application domain and application, itself. Then, interview the principles to identify their ideas as to what the goal is imagined to be.

    When it comes time to codify a spec, I ask very specific questions:
    "What do you want to happen in THIS situation?" If they respond,
    "I don't care", then I state "In situation X, the device can burst into flames" -- or something equally alarming. That usually is enough to
    draw their attention to the fact that they really *do* care; otherwise,
    I will implement any "don't care" scenarios in whatever manner is
    easiest for me -- in my fixed cost estimate! (if YOU don't want to
    think about it, then why should *I*?)

    People *can* make up their minds when they have to. They just don't want
    to think ahead. They'd rather tell you (later) what they DON'T want,
    after you've done it!

    [For fixed cost contracts, "after" is their problem, not mine! :>
    And, if I've done things in the design that make your subsequent
    choices difficult to implement, then who's fault is that?!]

    I've watched 6- and 7- figure projects "finished" and then *canceled*... without even trying to make a sale. Because it took a reification
    of an idea for folks to discover why it wasn't practical?? C'mon,
    what sort of imagination are you lacking?? You can imagine a product
    LIKE this... you just can't (fully) imagine THIS product! <frown>

    [To be fair, I get involved in a lot of proof of concept prototypes
    so I often know more about the actual application than the client.
    Because I've thought about it beyond the "gee, wouldn't it be nice if..." stage]

    Agile gets a lot of hype and often becomes a mantra for management
    rather than being practiced but it does recognize the design process
    as being highly iterative.

    I don't believe in Agile, in practice. I don't believe folks are
    willing to
    discard as much as they SHOULD (to be "safe") on each iteration.
    There's too
    much incentive to rationalize that some "finished" piece can be reused,
    as is.
    Or, "patched" instead of reengineered.

    I always think of a friend's custom home. He opted to move an exit to
    the deck. Builder complied. When house was built, the emergency escape
    from the basement window was located BELOW the decking -- due to the relocated doorway. Ooops! Do you cut a new escape in the cement
    foundation?
    Do you put a "hatch" in the decking above the basement window? Who's responsibility was it to notice this problem and make the necessary adjustments to the design to avoid the problem manifesting later?

    In the classic waterfall process the requirements and design phases
    tend to be so protracted and bloody that the delivery phase happens
    regardless (q.v. F-35, Zumwalt, ...)

    That's a matter of scale. Imagine iteratively designing a fighter jet's controls... and, later discovering that some assumption made on iteration N was no longer valid for iteration N+m -- but, no one noticed! Until the aircraft fell out of the sky.

    [Do we have to go all the way to mars before we realize there's a priority inversion problem in a design?]

    Look at the *manual* for a product as it is a reflection of the product's complexity. A great many "products" are very easy to express in that
    form, thus a reflection of their limited complexity.

    Admittedly prototyping battleships isn't as feasible as prototyping
    software systems.

    Good luck with your negotiations. And, more importantly, finding
    a way to then make any such arrangement work for *you*!

    Thanks. I've reached that point in life where stuff has to work for
    me. It's not being a curmudgeon, just realizing compromises for long
    term goals are a moot point when there ain't no long term statistically.

    Exactly. It's an interesting place to be (in life); you have the skills
    and resources ($) to do many things -- but not (necessarily) the *time* required to do so. It makes you think hard about where you want to spend your time -- and how willing you are to let someone else (PHB) dictate
    that to you!


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Jun 6 03:51:26 2022
    On 6/5/2022 8:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/05/2022 05:54 PM, Don Y wrote:

    I miss the variety of thought that was common back east. Many ethnicities, >> cultures, etc. The West is more homogeneous. Too much group think --
    or, lack
    of desire to express alternative opinions. Or, maybe lack of "drive"?
    <shrug>

    But, my early career was in Cambridge and, later, the 128 beltway so that's >> probably several sigma above the mean.

    A little bit but I grew up near Troy NY and it had its share of diversity. Somehow it seemed to work better than it has lately. People had ethnic pride but there was more sense of humor involved.

    Yup. Most jokes were ethnic, in nature. And, universally entertaining
    (even if your ethnicity was the brunt of the joke -- as you could identify
    with the stereotype being highlighted!)

    It's changed a little over the last 30 years I've lived here but Montana is pretty homogeneous and that's even within the European sector. It's mostly north European with Germans leading the pack. It's a local joke that the Sons of Norway is mostly Germans. The other 6.5% is the NA's but they don't have much cultural impact. There is a Hmong community for historical reasons involving General Vang and the CIA.

    East, there were small, highly localized clusters of individual ethnic backgrounds. This street would be irish, two blocks over, italian.
    And, local "festivals" applicable to each region. (Plus the various
    _____ Political Clubs)

    A friend and I were talking about that last week with regards to restaurants. People like ethnic restaurants -- as long as they aren't too ethnic. Some

    Unless they are of the same ethnicity as your upbringing. In which case,
    they are invariably a disappointment in their "blandness" (americanization)

    It's hard to introduce others to more authentic meals as the flavors
    are usually too "foreign" for their palates. E.g., I'll prepare
    butterflied /kielbasa/ cooked over a grill and served on a Kaiser roll
    and find it better received than *boiled*. And, won't even bother
    with /golobki/. Likewise, won't waste my time preparing /Scacciata
    Siciliana/ or /cavatelli/ made from chestnut flour as the effort would
    be lost on most palates.

    Stick to hot dogs and pizza! <frown>

    recent middle Eastern arrivals have been running food trucks. I hope they make
    a go of it since I like manakish and those pastries that are like baklava but not as messy. My favorite Indian restaurant didn't last too long since it was too Indian but the dumbed down version run by an Anglo is going strong.

    Am Israeli friend turned us onto a local Palestinian restaurant. But,
    it's fairly obvious that it will be shuttered, soon.

    OTOH, the hundreds of "taco places" seem to fare well -- despite the
    number of MX households (that you would assume can prepare more authentic varieties)

    I've several Nooks, each with a 32G microSD (cuz things won't fit on a
    single
    nook). But, it's a lousy interface designed for folks who have small
    libraries
    and want to see a dozen titles at a time. OTOH, I much prefer reading
    (for entertainment) via this form instead of "paper". It's nice to just
    be able to set it down and resume from where you left off, even in a
    darkened
    room, car, etc!

    I've got a Nook mostly because there is a brick & mortar B&N around the corner
    from where I work. In the early days of Amazon their ability to produce the books they advertised was sketchy and I preferred B&N but convenience won me over. I can download a book to my Kindle and order a case of cat food all at once. To get back on topic, convenience uber alles.

    I like the "heft" of a nook. I use the "Nook Color" model and have turned my other half on to a Nook HD (larger screen). She was resistant, at first, but
    I now see her using it nightly.

    Cryptography_, etc.) or oddball references for specific projects (_Optimal >> Strategy for Pai Gow Poker_, _From Text to Speech: The MITtalk System_,
    etc.).

    Pai Gow Poker?? I'm not a card player but when I first got into Windows I did a
    poker app to familiarize myself with the Windows API. Up until then I'd done embedded or command line based programming and the whole 'make it look pretty'
    was new to me. In the process I learned more about poker than I really needed to know.

    Pai Gow is a game played with tiles/dominoes.

    Pai Gow *Poker* is an adaption to use a deck of cards. It is fairly
    complex in that you try to make *two* poker hands from a 7-card deal
    (a 5 card and a 2 card) such that *both* cards beat the banker's
    corresponding hands.

    [There are a bunch of other rules that apply but the basics are thus]

    When you are trying to reduce this to an algorithm that a machine
    can employ (as banker) against *players*, it is critical that the
    banker (machine) have an optimal strategy -- because the company
    owning the machine wouldn't be happy if it didn't retain its edge
    against the player, over the long run!

    Note that, unlike poker where you have a *single* hand that
    plays against others, here you have a choice of how you will
    arrange your cards into TWO hands -- given that you need to
    beat *both* hands of the banker!

    E.g., if dealt AAAA---, you could arrange that as a 5 card
    hand consisting of 4 aces (which will beat the banker's
    5 card hand), but now you've got three other cards, from which
    you have to select a two card hand -- likely "<something> high"
    assuming there isn't a second pair among the seven.

    OTOH, you could present it as a 5 card "three of a kind, aces"
    hand and an "ace high" two card hand. Or, a 5 card "pair aces"
    and a 2 card "pair aces". etc. Take your pick -- BEFORE you
    see the banker's hands! And, unlike poker, you make your wager
    BEFORE the cards are dealt!

    Unlike *pure* games of "chance" (where you can set the house percentage explicitly), there's more reliance on skill (or lack thereof). And, constraints on the types of wagers that you can support (again,
    changing the expected value of the game)

    But, as you've said, at the end of the day, you end up knowing a lot
    more about the game than you really want to remember! :<

    And, much easier to search an electronic document than a print one.

    I remember reading about hypertext back when it didn't really exist and thinking what a great idea it was particular with hardcopy books with appendices designed by illiterate monkeys.

    Or, in the case of the nooks, implicit links that provide access to
    every word's definition, on the fly.

    It's not much better even for folks who are "merely" disabled. I take
    one of
    the chairs out for a quick run around the neighborhood, from time to
    time, to
    give the batteries some "exercise". Despite the suspension and ROHO seat
    cushion, I always feel like I've been brutalized by the process. Maybe
    driving indoors is less demanding?

    I suppose that's an advantage of not having feeling from the neck down. He's never complained about the ride.

    I won't say "he's lucky"... :-/

    But, it is amazing just how rough roads and sidewalks are when each bump
    is transfered to your spine!

    And, the inherent reliance on the chair itself. If it doesn't want to run, >> NOW, what choice do you have? A second chair?? What if you've motored to >> a spot a mile from home when the chair shits the bed? (and, why can't the >> chair tell you how many "miles" are left in the "tank"? Every coulomb in
    and out of the battery was observable by the chair's controller, why wasn't >> it keeping track??)

    There is that. When he upgrades he does keep his old chair for backup.

    Chairs aren't small. And, you can't really store it "out of the way"
    if you expect to be able to use it at a moment's notice.

    Being a
    niche product some of the components aren't available off the shelf. There have
    been a couple of times when the drive failed. Even after releasing the drive pushing one any distance is a workout.

    Yup. I refurbished a three-wheel scooter for a woman some years ago.
    She was delighted to be ambulatory to attend one of the larger "book fairs" that are hosted, here.

    Apparently, the batteries quit on her at some point and she had to rely
    on her friends to push her along. Sadly, she filed to disengage the
    motor before doing so (and wondered why her friends were having so much trouble!)

    [Over time, I've salvaged various add-ons to enhance my chair: handles
    that allow an attendant to more easily push it (like a more conventional wheelchair); headlights and turn signals (!); color LCD joystick controller; USB charger; Bluetooth interface; etc.]

    I can *barely* lift the CHAIR portion of mine, *if* it has been unbolted
    from the mechanism. And, the mechanized base is way too heavy to lift
    (100 pounds of batteries). It takes two people to reassemble the chair
    after transport (unless you can heft it onto a vehicle *intact*)

    We've discovered that you can't *give* these things away (!). I found
    this puzzling as mine had only 18 miles on it when I took possession
    and was in pristine shape! From the current price list, my set of
    options "list" at a bit over $40K.

    I've since realized that folks want (need!) the (customer) *support* that
    goes with the chair; we're not going to give them that. And, I imagine a
    lot of that is factored into the price of the chair and options -- as a
    "sale" often involves a lot of the vendor's time/labor (getting user measurements, configuring options, submitting claim to insurer, etc.).
    It's not like buying a process control system or a TV.

    And, if the batteries are dead, that "free" chair suddenly costs $400!

    It was suggested that we "part out" chairs and sell the subassemblies
    on eBay. But, I'm the only one qualified to do that and I have no
    desire to be a salesman! (that would be a different mission statement)

    Yet another example of how sad it is to see all the stuff that is
    discarded on a daily basis!

    And, the chairs aren't designed to make maintenance easy for ABLE-BODIED
    folks,
    let alone folks with particular mobility constraints. E.g., to replace the >> batteries on mine, you have to run the elevator *up* to get the seat off of >> the top of the battery compartment. Then, remove the shroud. Then,
    each of
    the 50 pound batteries.

    If the batteries are *dead*, then the elevator won't function! So, you
    have to
    remove the seat cushion and seating plate. Then, thread a long rod through >> a hole in the seat frame to manually engage the elevator mechanism,
    crank the
    seat up and continue from that point.

    Several times the mechanic showed up to service the chair at work. The batteries were never dead but working around defective limit switches and so forth made most fixes a several hour project.

    Yes, they aren't designed to be easy to service. I don't know if this is
    the nature of the beast, a sign of ineptitude *or* merely another way to
    ding an insurer for "support".

    A bit of common (engineering) sense enabled me to sort out an easier
    way to replace the batteries when failed:
    - open main breaker (this isolates the DEAD batteries from the chair)
    - connect chair to charger (I think this provides ~8A to the chair
    albeit through flimsy "charger" wiring)
    - sever the "inhibit" signal presented by the charger (intended to
    ensure you can't operate any of the mechanisms while the charger
    is connected; you can do this easily via a special little adapter
    that provides continuity for power and gnd from the charger but
    reroutes the inhibit signal)
    - taking care NOT to engage the drive wheels, activate the elevator
    (with no load on the seat!)
    Why isn't this codified in the service manual (which is very detailed)? Instead, one has to keep track of the special tool that is only
    occasionally used to manually elevate the seat! (idiots)

    Clearly designed by someone who expected NEVER to have to service his own
    chair! Which is why they quote $1100 for a battery change. <rolls eyes>

    [But, then again, it's likely INSURANCE money paying the bill... so, the
    market is distorted.

    Definitely. I think his last new chair was north of $25,000 and motor controllers, actuators and so forth are priced to match. I'm not 100% certain but I think it's a Permobil so many of the parts are from Sweden. Of course nothing is a standard part that you could order from Grainger.

    Maybe the fasteners... <grin>

    I converted my second chair into an electric wheelbarrow -- mounting
    the bucket from a conventional wheelbarrow in place of the seat.
    Then the motorized "tilt" function lets me *dump* the contents.

    [I will be redoing the yard, soon, and count on this to move the
    20T of crushed stone to the back of the house! No need for batteries
    as a pair of 12V 70A server power supplies act as a good "battery
    eliminator" :> ]

    I picked through the parts that I was prepared to discard, in the
    "conversion process" with an eye towards having key spares on hand
    (of course, that means more stuff to STORE!)

    Thankfully, at least they were reasonably consistent in their choice
    of fasteners so the number of tools required is few.

    You'd be amazed at how many places you can find to stash things! :>
    I've stuff under the beds, on top of bookcases, under workbenches/desks,
    etc. As I only wear T-shirts (save for the odd wedding/funeral), my
    closets aren't wasted on storing clothing. :> If we had a basement,
    I'd be sunk!

    Not amazed at all. I built my bed so the whole 'mattress' component is hinged and swings up to provide easy access to the storage compartments.

    Ah, lifting my mattress would be a chore. Instead, I get on hands and
    knees and peer under the bed in search of the easiest way to access
    <whatever> I'm looking for.

    I run video and keyboard cables out from my headless appliances/servers
    (which are typically tucked under bits of furniture) so I don't have to
    try to access their back panels -- just pick up the cables and connect
    them appropriately (when I need to interact with a device that isn't
    booting as expected).

    Ha! I'd always thought of an old "elementary school" -- the kind
    that has long halls and all the rooms on one level. You could set up
    each classroom for a particular use instead of having to set-up, use,
    tear-down *between* uses.

    That is the biggest annoyance. Currently half of my 'desk' (a hollow core door)
    is taken over by a a pile of Arduinos, wireless modules, motor controllers and
    so forth from a robotics project with unrelated bits and pieces mixed in.

    But, if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW that having 10 times the
    desk space would just result in ten times the clutter! Hence the appeal
    of an old school -- you can simply move away from a project and start fresh with a "virgin" work area. In a seemingly limitless way (for small values
    of limitless)

    Currently, I have only a few prototypes available that I am constantly repurposing to test other "modules". So, I spend very little time
    with any one module "up"; get the drivers working and then cannibalize
    the hardware to develop the *next* module. Most of my real development
    time goes to writing documentation for each module and the methods each
    exports to the rest of the system.

    [E.g., once I have *one* camera module working, there's no need to
    build a second. Or, even KEEP the first one! Move on to another
    knowing you can recreate this one as/if needed. When "done",
    build enough hardware to reify each of the modules in their
    proper numbers]

    Yup. A friend "solved" that problem on his commercial property
    by building over the areas that were once exposed soil. Amusing
    to think of how cavalier we used to be with disposing of used motor
    oil, industrial solvents, etc.

    In the city there a stenciled markers around the storm drains reminding people
    the aquifer is about 25' down. Several of the lumber operations and the pulp mill left behind their legacies. The pulp mill is particularly problematic since the settling ponds are next to the river.

    All of our domestic water is sourced from wells. *My* drinking water comes from a well ~100 yards from here (technically, it feeds the distribution network but you can safely assume that the majority of the water coming
    from my tap came from that well!).

    It gives you pause when you're spraying herbicide on weeds. Or, watching a neighbor drain a pool.

    I'm as guilty as anyone. Old motor oil is great for keeping the dust down in a
    gravel driveway.

    As a kid, motor oil either was burned in the tempering oven where my
    dad worked or poured into the storm drains -- to become someone else's
    problem.

    Here, I think more conventional household waste is the issue. Folks
    pouring (food) grease in their drains.

    I'm convinced water will be the biggest problem that we face (as a nation
    and as a people) going forward. Our abuse of it is largely ingrained.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 10:04:26 2022
    On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 6:41:42 PM UTC+2, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    It is, but John Larkin doesn't seem to have understood what it was saying.

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going to some cheap state college.

    It clearly doesn't say anything of the sort.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.

    Harvard gets to pick and choose its students, and can cream off what looks like the pick of the crop, not that any mode of testing students is all that reliable. Harvard can afford to make their courses demanding without running the risk of washing out
    too many students who can't hack it - and irritating the student's influential parents.

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the
    low end almost never rise.

    Hence, parents and students cheat. Society runs on people bending the
    rules (and sometimes using violence in addition) to "get ahead" and in America these are regularly tactics that work.

    Not all the time, and clearly not often enough to wreck the system.

    So the parents and students ask themselves why the hell am I playing the game by the book when it seems like everyone else who's getting ahead
    threw the book away a long time ago.

    Cheats and psychopaths are always free-loading, and systems evolves to become better at squeezing them out. The US seems to be evolving a bit less rapidly than it might .

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Mon Jun 6 12:48:35 2022
    On 6/4/2022 1:29 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 5:50:30 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.

    His point is the genes dominate.

    True. But his metric was "years in education" which is pretty unspecific. His data-base is places like "23 and me" which offer a lot of genomes but aren't set up to collect much data from even people who - like me - who are willing to provide the data.

    Harvard is very selective. Harvard grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Harvard is very selective, but the students whose parents want their kids to get into Harvard pay a lot for extra instruction to make their kids look good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    But it doesn't say what John Larkin likes to think it says. He's got Flyguy's kind of reading comprehension - he can always understand text in a way that suits what he wants it to say.


    JL subscribes to the "America should be ruled by the people who own it" philosophy, and tends to figure that "the people who own it" were
    destined to own it by their genetics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 6 12:46:10 2022
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >>>>>>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>>>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>>>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>>>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >>>>>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>>>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>>>>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >>>>>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >>>>>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>>>>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within >>>>> walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >>>> several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >>>> white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >>>> job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
    skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Fred Bloggs on Mon Jun 6 12:41:32 2022
    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >>>>>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >>>>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>>>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >>>>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >>>>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>>>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >>> several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
    skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the
    low end almost never rise.

    Hence, parents and students cheat. Society runs on people bending the
    rules (and sometimes using violence in addition) to "get ahead" and in
    America these are regularly tactics that work.

    So the parents and students ask themselves why the hell am I playing the
    game by the book when it seems like everyone else who's getting ahead
    threw the book away a long time ago.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 10:07:32 2022
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:46:10 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>>>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>>>>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>>>>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>>>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>>>>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>>>>>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >>>>>>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >>>>>>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>>>>>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within >>>>>> walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >>>>> several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset >>>>> worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >>>>> racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >>>>> white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >>>>> job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >>>>> skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real..


    I didn't say anything like that.

    But please don't read the book. It might disturb your prejudices.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 10:11:45 2022
    On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 6:46:18 PM UTC+2, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>> On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote: >

    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real..

    The Ivy League was never any kind of "pure meritocracy". It runs on reputation. If you have enough bright students wanting to buy into that reputation, you can select only the most promising candidates, and even a fairly unreliable selection tools will
    give you enough genuinely bright students to sustain the reputation.

    "To him that hath shall be given"

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 10:12:21 2022
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:41:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective >>>>>>>>> personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>>>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>>>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the >>>>>>> area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night >>>>>>> and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>>>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>>>>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >>>>>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >>>>>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>>>>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within >>>>> walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >>>> several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset
    worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a
    racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >>>> white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >>>> job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same
    skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the
    low end almost never rise.

    The average plumber or elevator repairperson makes more than the
    average master in sociology. And probably enjoys their job more.

    Just the other side of my wall here is the elevator repair union. They
    have wild BBQs on the sidewalk just below my window but, sniff, they
    never invite me. I like worker-guys.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 6 11:02:00 2022
    On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:12:34 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:41:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>> On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the >low end almost never rise.

    The average plumber or elevator repair-person makes more than the
    average master in sociology. And probably enjoys their job more.

    Sociology hasn't got to the point where they can redesign society in a way that works better, so they aren't going to be highly paid.
    It follows that people who do study sociology do it because they like the job, and probably do enjoy it.

    Other academic studies can generate higher incomes.

    Just the other side of my wall here is the elevator repair union. They
    have wild BBQs on the sidewalk just below my window but, sniff, they
    never invite me. I like worker-guys.

    Just so long as you don't have to spend time with them. That kind of work is satisfying, because you do give the customers what they want, but it isn't intellectually stimulating - which isn't a problem for a lot of people who - like you - don't have
    much of an intellect.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney (but stuck in Nijmegen NL at the moment)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 6 10:46:54 2022
    On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:07:45 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:46:10 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>> On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real..

    I didn't say anything like that.

    Or like to think that you didn't. Robert Plomin's book "Blueprint" didn't say what you claimed it did either, so you didn't understand what he said any more than you've understood what you said.

    But please don't read the book. It might disturb your prejudices.

    It's an informative book, but it is difficult to see it changing anybody's prejudices. I suppose the idea that intelligent parents have intelligent children because both parents have thousands of genes that all individually boost intelligence very
    slightly, so your kids are never going to be intelligent in exactly the same way as you are, may upset people who talk about having their grandfather's brain, but that doesn't look much like a prejudice.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 6 14:51:01 2022
    On 6/6/2022 1:07 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:46:10 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>>>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>>>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>>>>>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>>>>>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>>>>>>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>>>>>>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within >>>>>>> walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >>>>>> several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset >>>>>> worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to >>>>>> afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright >>>>> kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and >>>>> spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be >>>>> fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >>>>>> racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >>>>>> white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >>>>>> job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a >>>>>> person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >>>>>> skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going >>>>> to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real.. >>

    I didn't say anything like that.

    But please don't read the book. It might disturb your prejudices.


    At least the 2019 admission scandal, probably only the tip of the iceberg:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal>

    revealed about high-end universities what a lot of people already
    figured, it's pay-for-play. Though I think we weren't expecting it to be happening quite that flagrantly..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 6 14:41:33 2022
    On 6/6/2022 1:12 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:41:32 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the right to >>>>>>>>>>> walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time ago. >>>>>>>>>>
    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and their >>>>>>>>>> stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about where the >>>>>>>>> carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular pentagon >>>>>>>> things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back Bay >>>>>>>> really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got redone >>>>>>>> when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh water. >>>>>>>>
    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday afternoon. >>>>>>>

    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built in or >>>>>>> near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value for what >>>>>>> you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most expensive >>>>>>> real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston city >>>>>>> limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within >>>>>> walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s paying >>>>> several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset >>>>> worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >>>>> racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >>>>> white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >>>>> job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >>>>> skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of
    people in that relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is better than that.

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the
    low end almost never rise.

    The average plumber or elevator repairperson makes more than the
    average master in sociology. And probably enjoys their job more.

    Just the other side of my wall here is the elevator repair union. They
    have wild BBQs on the sidewalk just below my window but, sniff, they
    never invite me. I like worker-guys.

    Elevator maintenance or plumbing perhaps isn't as hard on the body as a
    number of other trades like construction, railway/power line
    maintenance, auto and truck service, etc.

    Sadly the rehab/disability centers I've seen have many guys in their
    50s, 40s, and occasionally younger who've had a serious injury or a deteriorating joint and can't do their trade anymore. They may have
    worked in construction 20 years and have only a high-school education,
    what do they do then is the question.

    Some of the trades are like an NFL player, you'd very much hope the job
    pays well because your time horizon may be significantly less than 65.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Mon Jun 6 14:45:31 2022
    On 6/6/2022 2:02 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:12:34 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:41:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>> On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the >>> low end almost never rise.

    The average plumber or elevator repair-person makes more than the
    average master in sociology. And probably enjoys their job more.

    Sociology hasn't got to the point where they can redesign society in a way that works better, so they aren't going to be highly paid.
    It follows that people who do study sociology do it because they like the job, and probably do enjoy it.

    Other academic studies can generate higher incomes.

    Just the other side of my wall here is the elevator repair union. They
    have wild BBQs on the sidewalk just below my window but, sniff, they
    never invite me. I like worker-guys.

    Just so long as you don't have to spend time with them. That kind of work is satisfying, because you do give the customers what they want, but it isn't intellectually stimulating - which isn't a problem for a lot of people who - like you - don't have
    much of an intellect.


    There isn't a necessity in the world for that many plumbers or elevator maintenance personnel. There seems to be a lot more availability for meal-servers and taxi drivers, and software engineers and managers, anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Jun 6 16:17:07 2022
    On 6/3/2022 5:54 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they
    were always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered
    by lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the batteries
    was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill and
    run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom.

    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
    chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's
    median income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.


    My girlfriend used to live down the street from a major hospital. There
    was a reason the rent was a bit low for the area I guess..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Mon Jun 6 18:10:04 2022
    On 6/6/2022 1:04 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the
    low end almost never rise.

    Hence, parents and students cheat. Society runs on people bending the
    rules (and sometimes using violence in addition) to "get ahead" and in
    America these are regularly tactics that work.

    Not all the time, and clearly not often enough to wreck the system.

    So the parents and students ask themselves why the hell am I playing the
    game by the book when it seems like everyone else who's getting ahead
    threw the book away a long time ago.

    Cheats and psychopaths are always free-loading, and systems evolves to become better at squeezing them out. The US seems to be evolving a bit less rapidly than it might .



    When poor in the US the phrase "It's better to ask forgiveness than
    permission" resonates. If your gamble whatever it is succeeds people
    tend to forgive you for any rules you bent, because it was a successful
    gamble and in the US success tends to be admired in whatever forms it takes.

    If you fail and bent the rules in the process you'll take a hard fall,
    but the US tends to let its poor take hard falls anyway, even ones who
    don't take big risks or bend the rules.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 17:08:36 2022
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 16:17:07 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 5:54 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they
    were always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered
    by lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the batteries
    was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill and
    run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom.

    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
    chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to
    try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's
    median income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until
    about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.


    My girlfriend used to live down the street from a major hospital. There
    was a reason the rent was a bit low for the area I guess..

    My office is three blocks from SF General (ie Zuckerberg) Hospital,
    the main trauma center in town. So I get all the ambulances and fire
    trucks outside my window, and for some reason packs of idiots doing
    wheelies on motorcycles. Maybe those are related somehow.

    I had a head crash a few years ago and spent a couple of days in
    intensive care there. It was very nice, actually. Mostly.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 17:16:36 2022
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:45:31 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/6/2022 2:02 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:12:34 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:41:32 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:04 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    It's not "childish" when whether a person has their ticket punched or
    not is the difference between a white-collar job that pays well, and
    only being able to find menial work the rest of their life. Wages at the >>>> low end almost never rise.

    The average plumber or elevator repair-person makes more than the
    average master in sociology. And probably enjoys their job more.

    Sociology hasn't got to the point where they can redesign society in a way that works better, so they aren't going to be highly paid.
    It follows that people who do study sociology do it because they like the job, and probably do enjoy it.

    Other academic studies can generate higher incomes.

    Just the other side of my wall here is the elevator repair union. They
    have wild BBQs on the sidewalk just below my window but, sniff, they
    never invite me. I like worker-guys.

    Just so long as you don't have to spend time with them. That kind of work is satisfying, because you do give the customers what they want, but it isn't intellectually stimulating - which isn't a problem for a lot of people who - like you - don't have
    much of an intellect.


    There isn't a necessity in the world for that many plumbers or elevator >maintenance personnel. There seems to be a lot more availability for >meal-servers and taxi drivers, and software engineers and managers, anyway.

    Around here, there is huge demand for construction guys and plumbers
    and electricians. It's even worse in Truckee; guys are booked for
    months.

    That would be fun, an electrician/ski bum. Three hours work would buy
    a season's lift ticket... and lots of drinks.



    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Jun 6 21:01:13 2022
    On 6/6/2022 8:08 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 16:17:07 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 5:54 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were
    outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the
    advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they
    were always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/


    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered
    by lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as
    electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight.

    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the batteries >>> was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill and >>> run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom.

    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
    chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's
    median income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until >>> about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.


    My girlfriend used to live down the street from a major hospital. There
    was a reason the rent was a bit low for the area I guess..

    My office is three blocks from SF General (ie Zuckerberg) Hospital,
    the main trauma center in town. So I get all the ambulances and fire
    trucks outside my window, and for some reason packs of idiots doing
    wheelies on motorcycles. Maybe those are related somehow.

    The hospital campus in Providence RI takes up about a quarter of the
    city proper, the complex is at the lower left of this pic:

    <https://imgur.com/a/iK9MhAJ>

    So "down the street" is a bit relative as in that town just about
    everything is about three blocks from everything else. She could sleep
    right through the sirens and car stereos at night, I've spent most of my
    life living in rural-ish suburbs so never really got used to it.

    I had a head crash a few years ago and spent a couple of days in
    intensive care there. It was very nice, actually. Mostly.

    Inpatient hospital rooms IME are lousy places to sleep, beeping machines
    and nurses coming in and out every 20 min to check this or that. Anyone
    resting for very long in there is likely receiving sleeping pills.
    Probably helps convince people to move on out who don't really need to
    be there.

    OTOH I've rarely had food that was that bad in a hospital in New
    England, breakfast is usually the best.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jun 6 21:51:31 2022
    On 06/06/2022 04:51 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/5/2022 8:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/05/2022 05:54 PM, Don Y wrote:

    Yup. Most jokes were ethnic, in nature. And, universally entertaining
    (even if your ethnicity was the brunt of the joke -- as you could identify with the stereotype being highlighted!)

    The only real enmity I remember were some Greek and Armenian friends who
    really hated Turks. Moot point since there were no Turks.

    East, there were small, highly localized clusters of individual ethnic backgrounds. This street would be irish, two blocks over, italian.
    And, local "festivals" applicable to each region. (Plus the various
    _____ Political Clubs)

    That applied to churches too, the Irish church, the French church, etc.
    I miss the North Boston festivals. You're not going to find scungilli
    salad around here. For that matter I doubt you could find a canolli.
    Even the vanilla offerings of Johnny Carino's only lasted about three
    years.

    Unless they are of the same ethnicity as your upbringing. In which case, they are invariably a disappointment in their "blandness" (americanization)

    Same as the Indian place Geraldo's, run by an actual Mexican, went out
    of business although Cafe Rio lives on.

    It's hard to introduce others to more authentic meals as the flavors
    are usually too "foreign" for their palates. E.g., I'll prepare
    butterflied /kielbasa/ cooked over a grill and served on a Kaiser roll
    and find it better received than *boiled*. And, won't even bother
    with /golobki/. Likewise, won't waste my time preparing /Scacciata Siciliana/ or /cavatelli/ made from chestnut flour as the effort would
    be lost on most palates.

    I suppose you could grill kielbasa but it never occurred to me. We
    always boiled it. I was going to check but I assume the markets around
    here carry it although you can't get too exotic. Blutwurst or boudin
    rouge is something I haven't seen in a long time.

    I should make a batch of golumki.At least I know I can find the makings. Dolmadakia ain't going to happen.

    Stick to hot dogs and pizza! <frown>

    At least I can get manakish until the nice ladies running the food truck starve. They're trying to start a fixed restaurant with another group
    that does kebabs and falafel. That tends to be the kiss of death. Food
    trucks have drawbacks particularly in Montana's climate but you're not
    paying rent and utilities 365 days a year either.



    Note that, unlike poker where you have a *single* hand that
    plays against others, here you have a choice of how you will
    arrange your cards into TWO hands -- given that you need to
    beat *both* hands of the banker!

    After you mentioned it I watched a video. The dealer was pretty but it
    looked too complex for me. A friend tried to teach me cribbage but she eventually gave up. Lack of interest more than anything else.


    Or, in the case of the nooks, implicit links that provide access to
    every word's definition, on the fly.

    I have a taste for Schwedenkrimi and a lot of it gets translated to
    German before it makes it to English if ever. Crime novels don't employ
    an extensive vocabulary but every now and then I run into a word I'm not familiar with and the instant definition is easier than digging out a dictionary.

    I've since realized that folks want (need!) the (customer) *support* that goes with the chair; we're not going to give them that. And, I imagine a
    lot of that is factored into the price of the chair and options -- as a "sale" often involves a lot of the vendor's time/labor (getting user measurements, configuring options, submitting claim to insurer, etc.).
    It's not like buying a process control system or a TV.

    No, it's not like buying a recliner. You're going to be in the thing for
    12 or more hours a day so it better be right.



    A bit of common (engineering) sense enabled me to sort out an easier
    way to replace the batteries when failed:
    - open main breaker (this isolates the DEAD batteries from the chair)
    - connect chair to charger (I think this provides ~8A to the chair
    albeit through flimsy "charger" wiring)
    - sever the "inhibit" signal presented by the charger (intended to
    ensure you can't operate any of the mechanisms while the charger
    is connected; you can do this easily via a special little adapter
    that provides continuity for power and gnd from the charger but
    reroutes the inhibit signal)
    - taking care NOT to engage the drive wheels, activate the elevator
    (with no load on the seat!)
    Why isn't this codified in the service manual (which is very detailed)? Instead, one has to keep track of the special tool that is only
    occasionally used to manually elevate the seat! (idiots)

    Too easy. The same friend has a UPS for his bed. It sounds weird until
    you realize if the lights go out he's stuck in whatever position he's in
    for the duration.

    Maybe the fasteners... <grin>

    I'm surprised they don't have a head pattern designed to keep meddlers
    out. When I went to replace the thermoswitch on a Mr. Coffee I found the
    screws were Tri-Wings. I suppose the American thing to do is buy a new
    $25 coffee pot when a $4 part fails but I'm stubborn. One more set of
    bits added to my collection.

    Thankfully, at least they were reasonably consistent in their choice
    of fasteners so the number of tools required is few.

    No fun. When Harley went to Torx they used a #25 on the chain inspection
    plate and a #27 on the clutch derby. A lot of Torx sets didn't include a
    #27 and using the #25 almost works until it strips the head out.

    Then there is the mixture of metric and SAE to keep you on your toes.


    But, if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW that having 10 times the
    desk space would just result in ten times the clutter! Hence the appeal
    of an old school -- you can simply move away from a project and start fresh with a "virgin" work area. In a seemingly limitless way (for small values
    of limitless)

    Yeah, I always did have a problem with my grade school report cards with
    the 'keeps desk neat' check. 'keeps busy at worthwhile activities' was
    another problem. That one was because my definition of worthwhile and a
    sixth grade teacher's weren't in the same universe.

    All of our domestic water is sourced from wells. *My* drinking water comes from a well ~100 yards from here (technically, it feeds the distribution network but you can safely assume that the majority of the water coming
    from my tap came from that well!).

    It gives you pause when you're spraying herbicide on weeds. Or, watching a neighbor drain a pool.

    The city water is all wells. I'm out in the country on a private well
    but they're all relatively shallow. I'm not a fan of string trimmers so
    I'm liberal with the Spectracide but stay away from the pump house. I
    prefer diquat to glyphosate as slightly less toxic.

    I'm as guilty as anyone. Old motor oil is great for keeping the dust
    down in a gravel driveway.

    As a kid, motor oil either was burned in the tempering oven where my
    dad worked or poured into the storm drains -- to become someone else's problem.

    We lived on a creek. The septic system of most houses along the creek
    was very simple. You learned to swim with your mouth shut. Compared to
    what the factories were pumping into the creeks and river that was nothing.

    There was one swimming hole downstream for a dye works. When the whistle
    blew you got out of the water because they were getting ready to dump
    the dye vats. Regardless of Pete Seeger's overall politics he did a lot
    to promote cleaning up the Hudson. By 2004 when I was back in the area
    Albany had a very pleasant riverside park something that would have been
    a joke in the '60s.

    I'm convinced water will be the biggest problem that we face (as a nation
    and as a people) going forward. Our abuse of it is largely ingrained.

    I think it was three years ago when I first crossed the new bridge at
    Hoover Dam. I've lost track of the years with covid. I stopped and
    played tourist, admiring the spillway that last saw water in the Reagan administration. Even then LV was getting ready to dig deeper to keep the
    water flowing. Now they seem to be literally finding out where the
    bodies were buried.

    More convenience uber alles to say nothing of stupidity. Things like
    retiring, moving from Michigan to Phoenix, and wanting a lawn just like
    back home. For that matter growing cotton under irrigation in Arizona
    while they're turning cotton fields in the Mississippi Delta into
    catfish farms. 'Cadillac Desert' is very dated and could use a new,
    revised edition.

    Maybe it's time to reread 'The Milagro Beanfield War' too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 23:07:41 2022
    On 06/06/2022 10:46 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the >>>>>>>>>>> right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the >>>>>>>>>>> USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time >>>>>>>>>>> ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes and >>>>>>>>>> sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and >>>>>>>>>> their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the >>>>>>>>>> collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about
    where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it though. >>>>>>>>
    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular
    pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back >>>>>>>> Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got >>>>>>>> redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh >>>>>>>> water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work >>>>>>>> in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH
    Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built
    in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value
    for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most
    expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston >>>>>>> city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate within >>>>>> walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s
    paying
    several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset >>>>> worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to
    afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright
    kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and
    spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be
    fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >>>>> racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and you're >>>>> white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a white-collar >>>>> job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a
    person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >>>>> skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going
    to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its
    curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no
    respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their
    ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of people in that
    relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in
    some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to
    get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is
    better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real..


    I worked for a company where the owner's son was a Harvard Business
    School graduate. His first triumph in the real world was driving a
    successful Boston runners' store into the ground. Needing a new victim
    he went t work for his father and managed that one to a chapter 11. Not impressed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Jun 6 23:22:28 2022
    On 06/06/2022 07:01 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/6/2022 8:08 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 16:17:07 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 5:54 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were >>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the >>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they
    were always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/



    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until
    comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered >>>>>> by lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as >>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight. >>>>>
    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the
    batteries
    was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill
    and
    run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom. >>>>
    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink
    chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's
    median income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village
    until
    about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.


    My girlfriend used to live down the street from a major hospital. There
    was a reason the rent was a bit low for the area I guess..

    My office is three blocks from SF General (ie Zuckerberg) Hospital,
    the main trauma center in town. So I get all the ambulances and fire
    trucks outside my window, and for some reason packs of idiots doing
    wheelies on motorcycles. Maybe those are related somehow.

    The hospital campus in Providence RI takes up about a quarter of the
    city proper, the complex is at the lower left of this pic:

    <https://imgur.com/a/iK9MhAJ>

    So "down the street" is a bit relative as in that town just about
    everything is about three blocks from everything else. She could sleep
    right through the sirens and car stereos at night, I've spent most of my
    life living in rural-ish suburbs so never really got used to it.

    I lived relative close to a firehouse and a railway track. The hotel at
    the end of the block burned down one night and I slept through the whole
    thing. The freight trains weren't a problem either. One night there was
    an earthquake and I did wake up for that. Somewhere it the deep recesses
    of my brain something was saying 'there isn't supposed to be a train at
    this time.'

    Inpatient hospital rooms IME are lousy places to sleep, beeping machines
    and nurses coming in and out every 20 min to check this or that. Anyone resting for very long in there is likely receiving sleeping pills.
    Probably helps convince people to move on out who don't really need to
    be there.

    The 3AM check on your vitals is annoying particularly when you're wired
    to an oximeter, heart rate monitor, and other shiny equipment that would presumably tell them if you were dead.

    OTOH I've rarely had food that was that bad in a hospital in New
    England, breakfast is usually the best.

    I spent some time in a rehab facility and the food was good but hardly
    what I eat at home. Oatmeal with a couple tablespoons of brown sugar,
    French toast with syrup, pancakes with more syrup, meals with plenty of
    pasta or other starches, snacks like mini-muffins, ice cream, or granola
    bars. Damn, I miss those snacks delivered to my room...

    I was only in the hospital proper for four days but they were sort of
    heavy on sugar and starches too.

    I didn't gain weight but I didn't lose any either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Jun 6 23:30:19 2022
    On Tuesday, June 7, 2022 at 7:07:50 AM UTC+2, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/06/2022 10:46 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>> On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>> On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    <snip>

    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    And John Larkin didn't understand it all that well.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get real..


    I worked for a company where the owner's son was a Harvard Business
    School graduate. His first triumph in the real world was driving a successful Boston runners' store into the ground. Needing a new victim
    he went t work for his father and managed that one to a chapter 11. Not impressed.

    The Harvard Master of Business Administration is unique in two ways (or at least it used to be).
    It did more for your starting salary than any other qualification, but once you'd had it for five years it was essentially worthless. Regular academic qualification tend to put you on a salary that keeps on getting bigger than that of your unqualified
    contemporaries, but the Harvard MBA didn't generate that sort of profile at all.

    In other areas Harvard degrees do keep on paying off, and the rest of the Ivy League will be the same, but the Harvard MBA was something else.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jun 7 01:12:33 2022
    On 6/6/2022 8:51 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/06/2022 04:51 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/5/2022 8:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/05/2022 05:54 PM, Don Y wrote:

    Yup. Most jokes were ethnic, in nature. And, universally entertaining
    (even if your ethnicity was the brunt of the joke -- as you could identify >> with the stereotype being highlighted!)

    The only real enmity I remember were some Greek and Armenian friends who really
    hated Turks. Moot point since there were no Turks.

    "Heated arguments" were a fact of life. But, there was never any
    outright animosity/grudges. You'd be red-faced, shouting at each other
    and sharing a meal/drink a few moments later.

    In many ways, it was a simpler form of interaction.

    East, there were small, highly localized clusters of individual ethnic
    backgrounds. This street would be irish, two blocks over, italian.
    And, local "festivals" applicable to each region. (Plus the various
    _____ Political Clubs)

    That applied to churches too, the Irish church, the French church, etc.

    Yup. Mass said in Italian/Polish/etc. (with the required bits of Latin
    /sotto voce/)

    I miss the North Boston festivals.

    These were common in most Italian neighborhoods. Often, a statue of some patron saint of the local church would be hauled out and paraded down the street to start a three day "festival". Always looked tacky to see money pinned/taped to the statue! But, I guess any way the church could bring
    in a few bucks was game!

    You're not going to find scungilli salad around
    here. For that matter I doubt you could find a canolli. Even the vanilla offerings of Johnny Carino's only lasted about three years.

    Part of it is the lack of vendors, but, also, lack of market.
    Canolli shells can last for a while -- esp here, where it is nice and dry.
    But, not indefinitely. Unless someone comes along and BUYS them, they
    are wasted.

    I always found it amusing to see *stuffed* cannola on display as you'd
    never do that until the sale was made! (If you have to put one in the
    display case as a *prop*, you've got the wrong customers!)

    From time to time, I make them (and inevitably burn myself on the oil).
    But, my other half *inhales* them -- and then bitches about what *I*
    am doing to her weight (funny, *I* don't recall twisting her arm!).

    [Of course, you can't win...]

    Unless they are of the same ethnicity as your upbringing. In which case,
    they are invariably a disappointment in their "blandness" (americanization)

    Same as the Indian place Geraldo's, run by an actual Mexican, went out of business although Cafe Rio lives on.

    Most of the ethnic restaurants, here, are run by mexican. And damn near
    *all* have Mexican cooks! (likely the price of labor). There's just
    some weird disconnect, there...

    It's hard to introduce others to more authentic meals as the flavors
    are usually too "foreign" for their palates. E.g., I'll prepare
    butterflied /kielbasa/ cooked over a grill and served on a Kaiser roll
    and find it better received than *boiled*. And, won't even bother
    with /golobki/. Likewise, won't waste my time preparing /Scacciata
    Siciliana/ or /cavatelli/ made from chestnut flour as the effort would
    be lost on most palates.

    I suppose you could grill kielbasa but it never occurred to me. We always boiled it.

    Ditto.

    Now, imagine all of that "stuff" (grease, spice) that would end up floating
    on the water never gets a chance to leave the meal. It tastes completely different.

    And, a 4-5 inch piece makes an ideal sandwich (on a bulky roll).

    I was going to check but I assume the markets around here carry it
    although you can't get too exotic. Blutwurst or boudin rouge is something I haven't seen in a long time.

    Chicago has a large polish/lithuanian population so relatively easy
    to find it in a ma&pa market. I've not even looked for it, here, as
    my other half would turn her nose up at it (and buying a whole kielbasa
    for one person means lots of "repeat" meals <frown>)

    I should make a batch of golumki.At least I know I can find the makings. Dolmadakia ain't going to happen.

    I most miss *good* bagels (instead of these fluffy "life savers").
    And /Siciliano Pepato/. And, a certain type of biscotti that I've
    been unable to find (or recreate!), here.

    Stick to hot dogs and pizza! <frown>

    At least I can get manakish until the nice ladies running the food truck starve. They're trying to start a fixed restaurant with another group that does
    kebabs and falafel. That tends to be the kiss of death. Food trucks have drawbacks particularly in Montana's climate but you're not paying rent and utilities 365 days a year either.

    Yup. All the whining about restaurants going out of business due to covid... c'mon, restaurants ALWAYS go out of business! (I think it's 1 in 4) So, what's the big deal? Maybe we don't need quite as many "food options"
    esp when most of them are at or below par...

    Here, it is not uncommon to see "a lady" with a grease-stained, brown grocery bag standing outside a store hawking tamales. Or burritos. I'm sure they're "authentic"... but wonder about *how* they were made!

    Note that, unlike poker where you have a *single* hand that
    plays against others, here you have a choice of how you will
    arrange your cards into TWO hands -- given that you need to
    beat *both* hands of the banker!

    After you mentioned it I watched a video. The dealer was pretty but it looked too complex for me. A friend tried to teach me cribbage but she eventually gave
    up. Lack of interest more than anything else.

    One advantage that the game has is there are lots of pushes. So, you
    can play for a long time without going through your bankroll.

    My "interest" was solely in acquiring enough knowledge of the games,
    the probabilities involved and the "right" strategy to codify in an
    algorithm. I *design* gaming devices; I don't *play* them! :>

    Or, in the case of the nooks, implicit links that provide access to
    every word's definition, on the fly.

    I have a taste for Schwedenkrimi and a lot of it gets translated to German before it makes it to English if ever. Crime novels don't employ an extensive vocabulary but every now and then I run into a word I'm not familiar with and the instant definition is easier than digging out a dictionary.

    I would find it most useful for medical texts. You can't really fault folks for using the "natural" vocabulary for their field. But, it does make it harder for "outsiders" to consume!

    I've since realized that folks want (need!) the (customer) *support* that
    goes with the chair; we're not going to give them that. And, I imagine a
    lot of that is factored into the price of the chair and options -- as a
    "sale" often involves a lot of the vendor's time/labor (getting user
    measurements, configuring options, submitting claim to insurer, etc.).
    It's not like buying a process control system or a TV.

    No, it's not like buying a recliner. You're going to be in the thing for 12 or
    more hours a day so it better be right.

    And, there's a fair bit that "experience" can bring to the table for a knowledgeable salesman. E.g., knowing how to inflate a ROHO makes
    a huge difference in comfort levels AND how your posture in the chair.
    I'm too tall for mine so often have to run with the legrests elevated
    (so they don't "bottom out"). This isn't particularly comfortable.
    And, leaves me feeling vulnerable (as my legs aren't in a convenient
    place to come to my aid if the chair tips/falls as I cross a curb)

    A bit of common (engineering) sense enabled me to sort out an easier
    way to replace the batteries when failed:
    - open main breaker (this isolates the DEAD batteries from the chair)
    - connect chair to charger (I think this provides ~8A to the chair
    albeit through flimsy "charger" wiring)
    - sever the "inhibit" signal presented by the charger (intended to
    ensure you can't operate any of the mechanisms while the charger
    is connected; you can do this easily via a special little adapter
    that provides continuity for power and gnd from the charger but
    reroutes the inhibit signal)
    - taking care NOT to engage the drive wheels, activate the elevator
    (with no load on the seat!)
    Why isn't this codified in the service manual (which is very detailed)?
    Instead, one has to keep track of the special tool that is only
    occasionally used to manually elevate the seat! (idiots)

    Too easy. The same friend has a UPS for his bed. It sounds weird until you realize if the lights go out he's stuck in whatever position he's in for the duration.

    Yup. A deaf couple had a battery (not UPS) to backup their doorbell/phone annunciators. Imagine being asleep and not knowing if the doorbell or
    phone has rung, during an outage.

    Maybe the fasteners... <grin>

    I'm surprised they don't have a head pattern designed to keep meddlers out.

    No. The load-bearing screws are all 5mm hex cap screws with a few smaller ones, where size constraints dictate. You can service the chair with just
    a few hex wrenches, no screwdrivers, etc. (IIRC, you may need an open-end wrench for the connections to the batteries)

    When I went to replace the thermoswitch on a Mr. Coffee I found the screws were
    Tri-Wings. I suppose the American thing to do is buy a new $25 coffee pot when
    a $4 part fails but I'm stubborn. One more set of bits added to my collection.

    Yup. One of the few things HF is good for -- disposable, oddball "security" bits!

    Thankfully, at least they were reasonably consistent in their choice
    of fasteners so the number of tools required is few.

    No fun. When Harley went to Torx they used a #25 on the chain inspection plate
    and a #27 on the clutch derby. A lot of Torx sets didn't include a #27 and using the #25 almost works until it strips the head out.

    Then there is the mixture of metric and SAE to keep you on your toes.

    Yeah. Fun when you have 1/2" and 12 or 13mm hardware on the same device
    ("Why doesn't this fit properly?")

    But, if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW that having 10 times the
    desk space would just result in ten times the clutter! Hence the appeal
    of an old school -- you can simply move away from a project and start fresh >> with a "virgin" work area. In a seemingly limitless way (for small values >> of limitless)

    Yeah, I always did have a problem with my grade school report cards with the 'keeps desk neat' check. 'keeps busy at worthwhile activities' was another problem. That one was because my definition of worthwhile and a sixth grade teacher's weren't in the same universe.

    Mine was penmanship. <shrug> I wonder what they'd have thought had
    they foreknowledge of how much TYPING would replace writing?

    All of our domestic water is sourced from wells. *My* drinking water comes >> from a well ~100 yards from here (technically, it feeds the distribution
    network but you can safely assume that the majority of the water coming
    from my tap came from that well!).

    It gives you pause when you're spraying herbicide on weeds. Or, watching a >> neighbor drain a pool.

    The city water is all wells. I'm out in the country on a private well but they're all relatively shallow. I'm not a fan of string trimmers so I'm liberal
    with the Spectracide but stay away from the pump house. I prefer diquat to glyphosate as slightly less toxic.

    No storm drains, here, so runoff just follows the road to the nearest
    wash... and into the soil. You *know* all of the sh*t folks spray
    on their lawns is only one rainfall from the water supply!

    A neighbor is out spraying her yard at the first sign of anything
    "green". I casually mention the water supply thinking she MIGHT
    have some concern given that she has grandkids. But, hey, if *they*
    end up with health problems down the road, *I* won't be around to
    see!

    I'm convinced water will be the biggest problem that we face (as a nation
    and as a people) going forward. Our abuse of it is largely ingrained.

    I think it was three years ago when I first crossed the new bridge at Hoover Dam. I've lost track of the years with covid. I stopped and played tourist, admiring the spillway that last saw water in the Reagan administration. Even then LV was getting ready to dig deeper to keep the water flowing. Now they seem to be literally finding out where the bodies were buried.

    More convenience uber alles to say nothing of stupidity. Things like retiring,
    moving from Michigan to Phoenix, and wanting a lawn just like back home. For that matter growing cotton

    , or pecans,

    under irrigation in Arizona while they're turning
    cotton fields in the Mississippi Delta into catfish farms. 'Cadillac Desert' is
    very dated and could use a new, revised edition.

    Maybe it's time to reread 'The Milagro Beanfield War' too.

    I suspect folks in other parts of the country will find the change
    (to reduced water consumption) considerably harder to accept. You
    never thought anything about "hosing off" the driveway. Or leaving
    the hose running while you're soaping up the car. Or *washing* the
    car instead of HAVING it washed (uses less water).

    Many years ago, I watched one of the "facilities" workers at a clients
    place using one of these. Simple design. Easy to operate. Durable.
    To me, it was an instant hit and I went out and bought a few. <https://i1.wp.com/lonn.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/products-dsc_0248-scaled.jpg>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Jun 7 07:51:54 2022
    On 06/07/2022 07:21 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    I can cook grits.

    That's a plus. My brother told me a story about another engineer working
    at Redstone in the '50s. The Bomarc project was going well and they were
    all stressed out. The guy would go to the diner every morning, order his breakfast, and say 'No grits'. Being Alabama, no grits wasn't an option.
    After about a month of this he picked the bowl up, swiveled around on
    the counter stool, and threw it through the plate glass window. 'No
    goddam grits!'

    I don't mind them but I wouldn't go out of my way for them. I do put
    hominy, not grits, in when I'm making pea soup. That might be a Quebec
    thing I picked up from my grandmother.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jun 7 06:21:19 2022
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 23:22:28 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/06/2022 07:01 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/6/2022 8:08 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 16:17:07 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/3/2022 5:54 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/06/2022 22:08, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/1/2022 4:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

    Evidence for this? They had a false dawn around 1910 but then were >>>>>>> outpaced at every turn by the internal combustion engine. Until the >>>>>>> advent of modern Nd magnetic materials and lithium batteries they >>>>>>> were always in very real trouble for power to weight ratio.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-watt-a-brief-history-of-the-electric-car-1830-to-present/



    Battery and motor technology were just not really up to it until >>>>>>> comparatively recently. UK had daily milk delivery vehicles powered >>>>>>> by lead acid cells when I was young but that was about it as far as >>>>>>> electric vehicles went. (advantage of nearly silent operation)

    Trams were OK because they could avoid carrying the battery weight. >>>>>>
    Wow, were the milk trucks run on battery so they wouldn't disturb
    residents early in the morning?

    Got it in one. They didn't have to be very quick either since it is
    entirely short bursts of stop start driving. The weight of the
    batteries
    was huge though. The odd one would have hand brake failure on a hill >>>>> and
    run away down it destroying whatever it happened to hit at the bottom. >>>>>
    They were not quite silent either since the bottles would make chink >>>>> chink noises rattling around in their metal frame carriers.

    That's different than how things are in the US where all service
    vehicles that come thru your neighborhood early in the morning seem to >>>>>> try to make as much noise as they can unless your neighborhood's
    median income is 100 grand or over

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village
    until
    about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.


    My girlfriend used to live down the street from a major hospital. There >>>> was a reason the rent was a bit low for the area I guess..

    My office is three blocks from SF General (ie Zuckerberg) Hospital,
    the main trauma center in town. So I get all the ambulances and fire
    trucks outside my window, and for some reason packs of idiots doing
    wheelies on motorcycles. Maybe those are related somehow.

    The hospital campus in Providence RI takes up about a quarter of the
    city proper, the complex is at the lower left of this pic:

    <https://imgur.com/a/iK9MhAJ>

    So "down the street" is a bit relative as in that town just about
    everything is about three blocks from everything else. She could sleep
    right through the sirens and car stereos at night, I've spent most of my
    life living in rural-ish suburbs so never really got used to it.

    I lived relative close to a firehouse and a railway track. The hotel at
    the end of the block burned down one night and I slept through the whole >thing. The freight trains weren't a problem either. One night there was
    an earthquake and I did wake up for that. Somewhere it the deep recesses
    of my brain something was saying 'there isn't supposed to be a train at
    this time.'

    Inpatient hospital rooms IME are lousy places to sleep, beeping machines
    and nurses coming in and out every 20 min to check this or that. Anyone
    resting for very long in there is likely receiving sleeping pills.
    Probably helps convince people to move on out who don't really need to
    be there.

    The 3AM check on your vitals is annoying particularly when you're wired
    to an oximeter, heart rate monitor, and other shiny equipment that would >presumably tell them if you were dead.

    OTOH I've rarely had food that was that bad in a hospital in New
    England, breakfast is usually the best.

    I spent some time in a rehab facility and the food was good but hardly
    what I eat at home. Oatmeal with a couple tablespoons of brown sugar,
    French toast with syrup, pancakes with more syrup, meals with plenty of
    pasta or other starches, snacks like mini-muffins, ice cream, or granola >bars. Damn, I miss those snacks delivered to my room...

    Mo just baked an apple-blueberry galette.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/upx43oxtdqmdgyp/AppleGalette.jpg?raw=1

    I can cook grits.


    I was only in the hospital proper for four days but they were sort of
    heavy on sugar and starches too.

    I didn't gain weight but I didn't lose any either.


    My big problem was my gay nurse. He was hilarious. I was screaming at
    him "Earl! Stop being funny! I have a broken rib!"

    I complained about the food once and he glared at me and said MY
    MOTHER COOKS HERE. Maybe that's a hospital joke.

    I also complained to a bigwig MD doing rounds. He said that the food
    was a cognitive test; if you like it, you have brain damage.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/748uepqwy0dpa8y/Brain_1.jpg?raw=1



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jun 7 07:05:26 2022
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 07:51:54 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/07/2022 07:21 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    I can cook grits.

    That's a plus. My brother told me a story about another engineer working
    at Redstone in the '50s. The Bomarc project was going well and they were
    all stressed out. The guy would go to the diner every morning, order his >breakfast, and say 'No grits'. Being Alabama, no grits wasn't an option. >After about a month of this he picked the bowl up, swiveled around on
    the counter stool, and threw it through the plate glass window. 'No
    goddam grits!'

    I don't mind them but I wouldn't go out of my way for them. I do put
    hominy, not grits, in when I'm making pea soup. That might be a Quebec
    thing I picked up from my grandmother.

    Plain grits. White grits. Yellow grits. Cheesey grits. Fried grits.
    Shrimp and grits.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncz5m2tjan2qg3x/Shrimp%2BGrits_2.JPG?raw=1

    (hey, my Spice sim has finished 2.4 milliseconds!)




    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jun 7 07:57:22 2022
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 10:35:41 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/7/2022 10:05 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 07:51:54 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/07/2022 07:21 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    I can cook grits.

    That's a plus. My brother told me a story about another engineer working >>> at Redstone in the '50s. The Bomarc project was going well and they were >>> all stressed out. The guy would go to the diner every morning, order his >>> breakfast, and say 'No grits'. Being Alabama, no grits wasn't an option. >>> After about a month of this he picked the bowl up, swiveled around on
    the counter stool, and threw it through the plate glass window. 'No
    goddam grits!'

    I don't mind them but I wouldn't go out of my way for them. I do put
    hominy, not grits, in when I'm making pea soup. That might be a Quebec
    thing I picked up from my grandmother.

    Plain grits. White grits. Yellow grits. Cheesey grits. Fried grits.
    Shrimp and grits.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncz5m2tjan2qg3x/Shrimp%2BGrits_2.JPG?raw=1

    (hey, my Spice sim has finished 2.4 milliseconds!)



    Even some Rhode Island restaurants have grits, though there aren't
    nearly as many options...I had the bacon & cheddar grits not long ago:

    <https://imgur.com/a/9HD1hAt>





    Since the Katrina diasporia, there's a lot more New Orleans food all
    around the USA. Good; it needs it.

    (Spice runs better if Firefox isn't running. FF spins up 20 or 30
    processes.)


    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Jun 7 10:35:41 2022
    On 6/7/2022 10:05 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 07:51:54 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/07/2022 07:21 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    I can cook grits.

    That's a plus. My brother told me a story about another engineer working
    at Redstone in the '50s. The Bomarc project was going well and they were
    all stressed out. The guy would go to the diner every morning, order his
    breakfast, and say 'No grits'. Being Alabama, no grits wasn't an option.
    After about a month of this he picked the bowl up, swiveled around on
    the counter stool, and threw it through the plate glass window. 'No
    goddam grits!'

    I don't mind them but I wouldn't go out of my way for them. I do put
    hominy, not grits, in when I'm making pea soup. That might be a Quebec
    thing I picked up from my grandmother.

    Plain grits. White grits. Yellow grits. Cheesey grits. Fried grits.
    Shrimp and grits.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncz5m2tjan2qg3x/Shrimp%2BGrits_2.JPG?raw=1

    (hey, my Spice sim has finished 2.4 milliseconds!)



    Even some Rhode Island restaurants have grits, though there aren't
    nearly as many options...I had the bacon & cheddar grits not long ago:

    <https://imgur.com/a/9HD1hAt>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jun 7 08:56:06 2022
    On 06/07/2022 02:12 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Now, imagine all of that "stuff" (grease, spice) that would end up floating on the water never gets a chance to leave the meal. It tastes completely different.

    Yeah, a kielbasa leaves an oil slick like a sunken submarine. Good though.

    Chicago has a large polish/lithuanian population so relatively easy
    to find it in a ma&pa market. I've not even looked for it, here, as
    my other half would turn her nose up at it (and buying a whole kielbasa
    for one person means lots of "repeat" meals <frown>)

    Troy had two pork stores, one of which was called the Troy Pork Store.
    Both had plenty of wurst varieties. While there were a lot of Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians I don't remember a store catering to meats.
    There was a bakery that I'd hit at least once a year for the paska.

    I most miss *good* bagels (instead of these fluffy "life savers").
    And /Siciliano Pepato/. And, a certain type of biscotti that I've
    been unable to find (or recreate!), here.

    Luckily we have a local source.

    https://www.bagelsonbroadway.com/our-craft

    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a
    bagel. Last week they filmed an episode of Yellowstone at the courthouse
    across the street. Other than screwing up traffic since that's the main
    street, it was a real windfall for the shop. Actors and their entourage
    have the appetite of a school of piranha.

    That's better than Ruby's Diner where another scene was filmed. People
    walk in, look around, take a video, and leave without buying a meal.
    Increased traffic doesn't always mean increased sales.


    Here, it is not uncommon to see "a lady" with a grease-stained, brown
    grocery
    bag standing outside a store hawking tamales. Or burritos. I'm sure
    they're
    "authentic"... but wonder about *how* they were made!

    You're not supposed to wonder. I was in TJ one time and a street vendor
    was selling clam cocktails. He would shuck a couple of clams into a
    paper Coke cup, squeeze in a lemon, and add a few shakes of hot sauce.
    They were great. I suppose the clams were raised on only the finest San
    Diego sewage. I followed that up with an ear of roasted corn made by an
    old woman squatting on the sidewalk at a bus stop. She wasn't the only
    food vendor there either. It's convenient to have a snack or two while
    waiting for a bus that's running on Mexican time.


    I would find it most useful for medical texts. You can't really fault
    folks
    for using the "natural" vocabulary for their field. But, it does make it harder for "outsiders" to consume!


    I bought a German dictionary in a Tucson bookstore that's great. It's a
    little different since it's all line drawings and organized by topic.
    Turn to 'Machine Tools' and there a several pages of detailed drawings
    of lathes, vertical mills, verniers, and so forth numbered.

    It's detailed. A micrometer, die Feinmessschraube, is broken down to die Messskala (scale), die Messtrommel (thimble), die Messspindel (spindle),
    and der Messbugel (frame). Poultry Farming is the same, everything from
    the egg, chicken, and brood frames spelled out with all the parts.



    Mine was penmanship. <shrug> I wonder what they'd have thought had
    they foreknowledge of how much TYPING would replace writing?

    I had a mercifully brief stint as a math and science teacher in junior
    high. (whatever made them think a fresh graduate from an engineering
    school knew squat about teaching kids escapes me). Supposedly I devoted
    a half hour during the homeroom period teaching penmanship. I've
    actually been complimented on my printing, a holdover from time on a
    drawing board, but my Palmer script is illegible. Plus, I'm left handed
    and don't get along well with chalk boards. The kids and I had a tacit understanding that they could do whatever they wanted as long as it was
    done quietly and we wouldn't discuss handwriting.


    I suspect folks in other parts of the country will find the change
    (to reduced water consumption) considerably harder to accept. You
    never thought anything about "hosing off" the driveway. Or leaving
    the hose running while you're soaping up the car. Or *washing* the
    car instead of HAVING it washed (uses less water).

    The early '60s was a drought period in upstate NY. People were irate at
    having to ask for a glass of water at a restaurant or other water saving measures. For a place where too much rain was more common it was an
    adjustment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jun 7 11:22:41 2022
    On 6/7/2022 7:56 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/07/2022 02:12 AM, Don Y wrote:

    Now, imagine all of that "stuff" (grease, spice) that would end up floating >> on the water never gets a chance to leave the meal. It tastes completely
    different.

    Yeah, a kielbasa leaves an oil slick like a sunken submarine. Good though.

    Grilling lets it sit on the surface of the sausage -- it glistens!
    Unlike a hotdog that just chars...

    If you tried a boiled piece and grilled piece side-by-side, you'd
    lament never having tried the grilled sooner!

    Chicago has a large polish/lithuanian population so relatively easy
    to find it in a ma&pa market. I've not even looked for it, here, as
    my other half would turn her nose up at it (and buying a whole kielbasa
    for one person means lots of "repeat" meals <frown>)

    Troy had two pork stores, one of which was called the Troy Pork Store. Both had
    plenty of wurst varieties. While there were a lot of Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians I don't remember a store catering to meats. There was a bakery that I'd hit at least once a year for the paska.

    Small polish deli/sandwich shop, here. But, their selection is limited; pierogi, kielbasa, kolackzki, potato pancakes... the rest is pretty
    much "american fare".

    There are 1.5 "decent" italian delis in town. The "0.5" being relatively
    close by -- but the selection is boring. The other is a fair drive from
    here and tedious to locate (it's in a maze of little streets; they've learned to fly a flag HIGH so folks can find the place!).

    But, they can't get the hard/aged version of the (grating) cheese I like.
    And, the owner makes a biscotti *similar* to the one I seek but way too
    small (like the size of a finger -- instead of ~4 oz ea) and way too much vanilla flavoring ("No, I won't share my recipe with you!" "Fine, I
    won't be buying any of your biscotti cuz they don't taste good!" Sheesh,
    does she think I'm going to go into business selling biscotti?? Big
    market, that -- NOT!)

    I most miss *good* bagels (instead of these fluffy "life savers").
    And /Siciliano Pepato/. And, a certain type of biscotti that I've
    been unable to find (or recreate!), here.

    Luckily we have a local source.

    https://www.bagelsonbroadway.com/our-craft

    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a bagel.

    I've always wanted to try baking them. But, you need to want to eat LOTS
    of them to make it worth the effort!

    Ditto donuts. I'd *love* a good fresh donut. But, how many do you have
    to make (and then EAT) to make the effort worth your time?

    I'll be baking bread in the next week. Five 2lb loaves. Eat one while
    hot. Eat the next one the following day. Give three away (cuz it doesn't "stay" long and freezing it would be sinful!). Shitload of effort for two loaves of bread!

    Ice cream, OTOH, is ALWAYS worth the effort. (would love to learn how to
    make good ices but that appears to require special kit)

    Last week they filmed an episode of Yellowstone at the courthouse across the street. Other than screwing up traffic since that's the main street, it was a real windfall for the shop. Actors and their entourage have the appetite of a school of piranha.

    But, then they leave and the business falls back to prior levels. So, an inconvenience for the locals, in the interim -- though maybe a bit to gossip about...

    That's better than Ruby's Diner where another scene was filmed. People walk in,
    look around, take a video, and leave without buying a meal. Increased traffic doesn't always mean increased sales.

    Yup. The "1.0" deli I mentioned is a little hole in the wall. Originally
    a sort of wholesale outlet (I'd buy my anise, /Prosciutto di Parma/,
    chestnut flour and /Fusilli col Buco/). Then, they started offering
    premade meals (e.g., buy a lasagna for your family). And, most recently, opened up a small seating area to cater to the local businesses for lunch.
    I think they have *three* parking spaces so don't ever show up at lunch
    hour if you're just looking to make a purchase!

    The trend is in the wrong direction from my perspective as they will undoubtedly commit more resources to less ethnic offerings (as witnessed
    by the "store" section's shrinkage). Only a matter of time before "Peanut Butter and Jelly" adorns the menu...

    Here, it is not uncommon to see "a lady" with a grease-stained, brown
    grocery
    bag standing outside a store hawking tamales. Or burritos. I'm sure
    they're
    "authentic"... but wonder about *how* they were made!

    You're not supposed to wonder. I was in TJ one time and a street vendor was selling clam cocktails. He would shuck a couple of clams into a paper Coke cup,
    squeeze in a lemon, and add a few shakes of hot sauce. They were great. I

    A common practice on the beach in MX. "Cook" shrimp in lime juice for
    a quick snack. Ceviche. Always seemed dubious but no harm, so far!

    Before we lost it (to a prolonged freeze), we had a small lime tree that would produce ~400 large fruit (not the dinky little things you see in stores) in each crop. Of course, there's very little you can DO with that many limes! (sorbet?) So, we'd bring them to the "laundry" at the local hospital (workers being almost exclusively mexican). *They* would have no trouble consuming that many limes!

    [it's a common practice to cut a wedge of lime and slip it under your
    lips, flesh to teeth. You'll see many mexicans with "acid etched" front
    teeth as a result of this practice!]

    suppose the clams were raised on only the finest San Diego sewage. I followed that up with an ear of roasted corn made by an old woman squatting on the sidewalk at a bus stop. She wasn't the only food vendor there either. It's convenient to have a snack or two while waiting for a bus that's running on Mexican time.

    Like the pretzel vendors in NYC... just don't look at their *hands* as they hand you your purchase! <ick>

    I would find it most useful for medical texts. You can't really fault
    folks
    for using the "natural" vocabulary for their field. But, it does make it
    harder for "outsiders" to consume!

    I bought a German dictionary in a Tucson bookstore that's great. It's a little
    different since it's all line drawings and organized by topic. Turn to 'Machine
    Tools' and there a several pages of detailed drawings of lathes, vertical mills, verniers, and so forth numbered.

    It's detailed. A micrometer, die Feinmessschraube, is broken down to die Messskala (scale), die Messtrommel (thimble), die Messspindel (spindle), and der Messbugel (frame). Poultry Farming is the same, everything from the egg, chicken, and brood frames spelled out with all the parts.

    Did it come with a set of crayons? :>

    Mine was penmanship. <shrug> I wonder what they'd have thought had
    they foreknowledge of how much TYPING would replace writing?

    I had a mercifully brief stint as a math and science teacher in junior high.

    I'd never have the patience. "Do you WANT to learn, or not?!" Well, for youngsters, you know what the answer to THAT question would likely be!

    OTOH, I'm good in one-on-one situations as many friends/neighbors/colleagues have asked me to "help out" their kids -- the results are usually very
    dramatic and "sudden". I suspect because they don't see me as an "adult" :>

    (whatever made them think a fresh graduate from an engineering school knew squat about teaching kids escapes me). Supposedly I devoted a half hour during
    the homeroom period teaching penmanship. I've actually been complimented on my
    printing, a holdover from time on a drawing board, but my Palmer script is illegible. Plus, I'm left handed and don't get along well with chalk boards. The kids and I had a tacit understanding that they could do whatever they wanted as long as it was done quietly and we wouldn't discuss handwriting.

    Yeah, I can recall *drawing* (what else would you call it?) letters in drafting class. And, getting hammered over how round your curves were, how balanced
    the horizontals of various glyphs, etc.

    But, in hindsight, it was a worthwhile experience. I still draw my 8s in
    four strokes!

    I suspect folks in other parts of the country will find the change
    (to reduced water consumption) considerably harder to accept. You
    never thought anything about "hosing off" the driveway. Or leaving
    the hose running while you're soaping up the car. Or *washing* the
    car instead of HAVING it washed (uses less water).

    The early '60s was a drought period in upstate NY. People were irate at having
    to ask for a glass of water at a restaurant or other water saving measures. For
    a place where too much rain was more common it was an adjustment.

    Yeah, I recall it (southern N E). And, how "odd" it felt NOT to be able to
    do things that *seemed* "natural" ("Well of course I'm going to hose down
    the driveway! How else can I get it clean?!" "Well, this is a broom...")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jun 7 20:55:00 2022
    On 06/07/2022 08:35 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 10:05 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 07:51:54 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/07/2022 07:21 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    I can cook grits.

    That's a plus. My brother told me a story about another engineer working >>> at Redstone in the '50s. The Bomarc project was going well and they were >>> all stressed out. The guy would go to the diner every morning, order his >>> breakfast, and say 'No grits'. Being Alabama, no grits wasn't an option. >>> After about a month of this he picked the bowl up, swiveled around on
    the counter stool, and threw it through the plate glass window. 'No
    goddam grits!'

    I don't mind them but I wouldn't go out of my way for them. I do put
    hominy, not grits, in when I'm making pea soup. That might be a Quebec
    thing I picked up from my grandmother.

    Plain grits. White grits. Yellow grits. Cheesey grits. Fried grits.
    Shrimp and grits.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncz5m2tjan2qg3x/Shrimp%2BGrits_2.JPG?raw=1

    (hey, my Spice sim has finished 2.4 milliseconds!)



    Even some Rhode Island restaurants have grits, though there aren't
    nearly as many options...I had the bacon & cheddar grits not long ago:

    <https://imgur.com/a/9HD1hAt>

    Like possums and armadillos the invasive species are moving north...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Jun 7 22:33:29 2022
    On 6/7/2022 1:07 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/06/2022 10:46 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>
    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the >>>>>>>>>>>> right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the >>>>>>>>>>>> USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time >>>>>>>>>>>> ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and canoes >>>>>>>>>>> and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and >>>>>>>>>>> their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the >>>>>>>>>>> collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about >>>>>>>>>> where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it >>>>>>>>>> though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular >>>>>>>>> pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back >>>>>>>>> Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got >>>>>>>>> redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh >>>>>>>>> water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work >>>>>>>>> in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH
    Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built >>>>>>>> in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value >>>>>>>> for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most
    expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston >>>>>>>> city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They
    obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate
    within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s
    paying
    several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset >>>>>> worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to >>>>>> afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright >>>>> kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and >>>>> spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be >>>>> fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >>>>>> racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and
    you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a
    white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a >>>>>> person without the credentials would not be even if they had the same >>>>>> skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going >>>>> to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its
    curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no
    respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their
    ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of people in that
    relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in
    some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to
    get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is
    better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get
    real..


    I worked for a company where the owner's son was a Harvard Business
    School graduate. His first triumph in the real world was driving a
    successful Boston runners' store into the ground. Needing a new victim
    he went t work for his father and managed that one to a chapter 11. Not impressed.

    Once upon a time there was this President who attended an Ivy League
    school who didn't know how to get a blowjob without anyone else finding
    out. To be fair I guess they don't offer a course on that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Tue Jun 7 20:53:27 2022
    On 06/07/2022 08:33 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 1:07 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/06/2022 10:46 AM, bitrex wrote:
    On 6/3/2022 3:50 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
    <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, June 3, 2022 at 10:56:59 AM UTC-4,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 09:53:43 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 6/2/2022 2:20 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:24:08 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net>
    wrote:

    On 5/31/2022 10:40 PM, rbowman wrote:

    "There is no birthright to transportation, other than the >>>>>>>>>>>>> right to
    walk."

    Then again, nobody ASKED to be born into a country called the >>>>>>>>>>>>> USA that
    was designed around the automobile and had much of its public >>>>>>>>>>>>> transportation infrastructure dismantled in favor a long time >>>>>>>>>>>>> ago.

    No. The USA was "designed around" horses and mules and >>>>>>>>>>>> canoes and
    sailing ships and wagons. People like to move themselves and >>>>>>>>>>>> their
    stuff around. If anything designed our country, it was the >>>>>>>>>>>> collective
    personal preferences.

    The roads in many areas of Boston tend to be laid out about >>>>>>>>>>> where the
    carts went, there doesn't seem to be a lot of design to it >>>>>>>>>>> though.

    When you start with a town square that really is an irregular >>>>>>>>>> pentagon
    things go to hell in a hurry. Then you have to remember the Back >>>>>>>>>> Bay
    really was a bay and the Fens a tidal marsh. Even the Fens got >>>>>>>>>> redone
    when they dammed the Charles and it went from brackish to fresh >>>>>>>>>> water.

    It adds charm. I enjoyed walking around the town when I had work >>>>>>>>>> in the
    area. 'Walking is the operant word. I'd drive down from NH >>>>>>>>>> Sunday night
    and park the car, only retrieving it to drive home Friday
    afternoon.


    The "charm" also then tends to mean nobody wants anything built >>>>>>>>> in or
    near their charming neighborhood.

    Housing in San Francisco and Boston proper is a terrible value >>>>>>>>> for what
    you get, this $448/month unit in Tokyo (also some of the most >>>>>>>>> expensive
    real estate in the world) is fantastic for the rent.

    <https://youtu.be/ooh1aoEJKZc?t=732>


    You'd be hard-pressed to find anything as nice within the Boston >>>>>>>>> city
    limits for three times the price.

    People who want to live in SF or Boston bid up the rents. They >>>>>>>> obviously think it's worth it.

    Google grossly over-pays them anyhow. Property values escalate >>>>>>>> within
    walking distance of the google bus stops.


    Yeah I will agree I've only rarely met anyone in their 20s or 30s >>>>>>> paying
    several thousand a month in rent who seemed like they had a skillset >>>>>>> worth whatever their Boston employer was paying them to be able to >>>>>>> afford that.
    Google and Apple and Facebook and those guys pay big bucks to bright >>>>>> kids. And the kids can get a tiny condo or apartment to sleep in and >>>>>> spend a lot of time outside.

    $200K income, $400K for a couple, and $2-3K per month for rent can be >>>>>> fun.

    One of the reasons the university system in the US has become such a >>>>>>> racket and they can charge anything is that if you're rich, and
    you're
    white, that degree is still a pretty reliable ticket to a
    white-collar
    job. Someone will almost surely hire you eventually in a way that a >>>>>>> person without the credentials would not be even if they had the >>>>>>> same
    skillset.
    This is interesting and very well researched:

    https://tinyurl.com/2p8sc2xp

    On conclusion is that going to Harvard is not much better than going >>>>>> to some cheap state college.

    A lot depends on the student body because the school tailors its
    curriculum for them. Most state schools are full of people with no
    respect for scholarship and they're there to party and get their
    ticket punched. And I can't believe the number of people in that
    relatively mature age group who participate in organized cheating in >>>>> some way- seems very childish to me- oh well the government has to
    get its applicants from somewhere. Even a decent community college is >>>>> better than that.


    His point is the genes dominate. Harvard is very selective. Harvard
    grads are good mostly because the entering freshmen were good.

    Good book. Lots of interesting stuff.

    Jeez, you think the Ivy League is some kind of pure meritocracy? Get
    real..


    I worked for a company where the owner's son was a Harvard Business
    School graduate. His first triumph in the real world was driving a
    successful Boston runners' store into the ground. Needing a new victim
    he went t work for his father and managed that one to a chapter 11.
    Not impressed.

    Once upon a time there was this President who attended an Ivy League
    school who didn't know how to get a blowjob without anyone else finding
    out. To be fair I guess they don't offer a course on that.


    What else is college for? Did I miss something? Drugs, sex, and
    rock'n'roll baby!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Jun 7 21:08:17 2022
    On 06/07/2022 08:57 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 10:35:41 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 6/7/2022 10:05 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 7 Jun 2022 07:51:54 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/07/2022 07:21 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    I can cook grits.

    That's a plus. My brother told me a story about another engineer working >>>> at Redstone in the '50s. The Bomarc project was going well and they were >>>> all stressed out. The guy would go to the diner every morning, order his >>>> breakfast, and say 'No grits'. Being Alabama, no grits wasn't an option. >>>> After about a month of this he picked the bowl up, swiveled around on
    the counter stool, and threw it through the plate glass window. 'No
    goddam grits!'

    I don't mind them but I wouldn't go out of my way for them. I do put
    hominy, not grits, in when I'm making pea soup. That might be a Quebec >>>> thing I picked up from my grandmother.

    Plain grits. White grits. Yellow grits. Cheesey grits. Fried grits.
    Shrimp and grits.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncz5m2tjan2qg3x/Shrimp%2BGrits_2.JPG?raw=1

    (hey, my Spice sim has finished 2.4 milliseconds!)



    Even some Rhode Island restaurants have grits, though there aren't
    nearly as many options...I had the bacon & cheddar grits not long ago:

    <https://imgur.com/a/9HD1hAt>





    Since the Katrina diasporia, there's a lot more New Orleans food all
    around the USA. Good; it needs it.

    Well the beignets aren't bad. When my work in Ft. Wayne was done I took
    the long way home to do Mardi Gras. My pickup only has a shell over the
    bed, not a full blown camper so discretely parking on the street was no problem. I made sure I was close to a supply of beignets and coffee for breakfast. It was interesting. William Shatner was Bacchus.

    I liked the efficiency of the booking buses scattered around for the convenience of the cops.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jun 7 21:31:23 2022
    On 06/07/2022 12:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 7:56 AM, rbowman wrote:


    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a
    bagel.

    I've always wanted to try baking them. But, you need to want to eat LOTS
    of them to make it worth the effort!

    They're a lot of work. You proof the dough, shape them, boil them, and
    then you get around to baking them.

    Ditto donuts. I'd *love* a good fresh donut. But, how many do you have
    to make (and then EAT) to make the effort worth your time?

    I miss Dunkin Donuts but it's probably all for the better.



    I bought a German dictionary in a Tucson bookstore that's great. It's
    a little different since it's all line drawings and organized by
    topic. Turn to 'Machine Tools' and there a several pages of detailed
    drawings of lathes, vertical mills, verniers, and so forth numbered.

    It's detailed. A micrometer, die Feinmessschraube, is broken down to
    die Messskala (scale), die Messtrommel (thimble), die Messspindel
    (spindle), and der Messbugel (frame). Poultry Farming is the same,
    everything from the egg, chicken, and brood frames spelled out with
    all the parts.

    Did it come with a set of crayons? :>

    Not hardly. Sadly I think it's out of print. All I see on Amazon is used.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/744843.The_Oxford_Duden_Pictorial_German_English_Dictionary

    I'd never have the patience. "Do you WANT to learn, or not?!" Well, for youngsters, you know what the answer to THAT question would likely be!

    The school used homogeneous groupings into 4 sections, A through D, D
    standing for dumb. The same syllabus was used for all. While a few of
    the A kids might have been interested in the Babylonian sexagesimal
    system the D kids sorely needed to know how to make change in the
    decimal system for their careers at McDonalds. That was the late '60s;
    now the computer tells them that although I swear some could use icons
    of dollar bills, quarters, and so forth rather than $3.27.


    Yeah, I can recall *drawing* (what else would you call it?) letters in drafting
    class. And, getting hammered over how round your curves were, how balanced the horizontals of various glyphs, etc.

    But, in hindsight, it was a worthwhile experience. I still draw my 8s in four strokes!

    No curves at RPI. This was straight engineering drawing any curves were
    in the exploded view of a variable pitch propeller. I considered myself
    lucky to have missed the ink on mylar phase.


    Yeah, I recall it (southern N E). And, how "odd" it felt NOT to be able to do things that *seemed* "natural" ("Well of course I'm going to hose down
    the driveway! How else can I get it clean?!" "Well, this is a broom...")

    We had a shallow dug well in the cellar. When it started to go dry there
    I was driving a sand point from Monkey Wards with a 10lb sledge. Good
    times. My mother eventually had a real well drilled. 250' and they hit
    sulfur water. More good times.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 8 05:50:53 2022
    On 6/7/2022 8:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/07/2022 12:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 7:56 AM, rbowman wrote:


    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a
    bagel.

    I've always wanted to try baking them. But, you need to want to eat LOTS
    of them to make it worth the effort!

    They're a lot of work. You proof the dough, shape them, boil them, and then you
    get around to baking them.

    Yes. I'm not afraid of the work (my cheesecake is a 5 hour stint at the stove) but, rather, consuming enough of them to justify the effort.

    Ditto donuts. I'd *love* a good fresh donut. But, how many do you have
    to make (and then EAT) to make the effort worth your time?

    I miss Dunkin Donuts but it's probably all for the better.

    We had a ma&pa place up the corner. They would make a batch of donuts in
    the morning, then CLOSE when the last ones sold. So, if you wanted a donut, you had to arrange to be there early!

    I lament not trying to get a job (volunteer!) with them just to get a
    good first-hand education on the process. But, suspect regular
    consumption of donuts ON THE JOB would not be good for my health...

    I bought a German dictionary in a Tucson bookstore that's great. It's
    a little different since it's all line drawings and organized by
    topic. Turn to 'Machine Tools' and there a several pages of detailed
    drawings of lathes, vertical mills, verniers, and so forth numbered.

    It's detailed. A micrometer, die Feinmessschraube, is broken down to
    die Messskala (scale), die Messtrommel (thimble), die Messspindel
    (spindle), and der Messbugel (frame). Poultry Farming is the same,
    everything from the egg, chicken, and brood frames spelled out with
    all the parts.

    Did it come with a set of crayons? :>

    Not hardly. Sadly I think it's out of print. All I see on Amazon is used.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/744843.The_Oxford_Duden_Pictorial_German_English_Dictionary

    Lots of interesting things go out of print pretty regularly. Two of my favorites: _Mots d'Heures: Gousses, Rames_ (you likely didn't catch the
    joke and, thus, the intent) and _The Yum Yum Book_. Both are delightfully creative!

    I'd never have the patience. "Do you WANT to learn, or not?!" Well, for
    youngsters, you know what the answer to THAT question would likely be!

    The school used homogeneous groupings into 4 sections, A through D, D standing
    for dumb. The same syllabus was used for all.

    Yes, of course... that makes sense -- NOT! It's a wonder that ANY student
    gets an effective (albeit far from ideal!) education. Thankfully, I had
    really good teachers along the way who "found stuff" with which to challenge
    me (as the "standard fare" was a big yawn)

    While a few of the A kids might
    have been interested in the Babylonian sexagesimal system the D kids sorely needed to know how to make change in the decimal system for their careers at McDonalds. That was the late '60s; now the computer tells them that although I
    swear some could use icons of dollar bills, quarters, and so forth rather than
    $3.27.

    (sigh) You'd think it would be one of the first things taught and
    stressed! Regardless of the nature of your future job, EVERYONE
    needs to be able to understand if they've been charged the correct
    amount and given the correct change!

    Yeah, I can recall *drawing* (what else would you call it?) letters in
    drafting
    class. And, getting hammered over how round your curves were, how balanced >> the horizontals of various glyphs, etc.

    But, in hindsight, it was a worthwhile experience. I still draw my 8s in
    four strokes!

    No curves at RPI.

    Didn't you letter/dimension your drawings? Or, was the font entirely
    composed of straight line segments?

    This was straight engineering drawing any curves were in the
    exploded view of a variable pitch propeller. I considered myself lucky to have
    missed the ink on mylar phase.

    I used to like writing with a Rapidograph. But, got tired of keeping them clean. It did, however, cause me to invest more time in the act of writing
    (as it made the results so much "prettier")

    Yeah, I recall it (southern N E). And, how "odd" it felt NOT to be able to >> do things that *seemed* "natural" ("Well of course I'm going to hose down
    the driveway! How else can I get it clean?!" "Well, this is a broom...")

    We had a shallow dug well in the cellar. When it started to go dry there I was
    driving a sand point from Monkey Wards with a 10lb sledge. Good times. My mother eventually had a real well drilled. 250' and they hit sulfur water. More
    good times.

    We were always on municipal water. But, lots of reservoirs around (I used
    to wonder how the water was kept *safe* from "bad actors" as there was
    nothing to prevent you from approaching any of them)

    However, the mindset was that water is "free" and limitless. Leave it running while shaving, brushing teeth, washing dishes, etc. Not so, here -- unless you're a business that feels a sense of entitlement to water a lush lawn!
    We're apologetic about our water usage but mainly for the fruit trees.
    OTOH, we harvest a few thousand pounds of fruit, annually, and *consume* it. Others let theirs rot on the tree... :<

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 8 08:40:53 2022
    On 06/08/2022 06:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 8:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/07/2022 12:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 7:56 AM, rbowman wrote:


    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a
    bagel.

    I've always wanted to try baking them. But, you need to want to eat
    LOTS
    of them to make it worth the effort!

    They're a lot of work. You proof the dough, shape them, boil them, and
    then you get around to baking them.

    Yes. I'm not afraid of the work (my cheesecake is a 5 hour stint at the stove)
    but, rather, consuming enough of them to justify the effort.

    I thought about making cheesecake once but got stopped in my tracks when
    I got to 'springform pan'. I haven't had really good cheesecake in a
    long time. My favorite espresso place had peanut butter cheesecake the
    last time I was in. Not bad but not as good as it sounded.


    Lots of interesting things go out of print pretty regularly. Two of my favorites: _Mots d'Heures: Gousses, Rames_ (you likely didn't catch the
    joke and, thus, the intent) and _The Yum Yum Book_. Both are delightfully creative!

    I volunteered at the library in NH when they were thinning the herd. One
    of the criteria for keeping a book was if it was in 'Books in Print'. I
    thought a better test would be if it was worthwhile and not in print. I
    brought home a complete set of John Burrough's essays that were in the
    discard pile.

    Yes, of course... that makes sense -- NOT! It's a wonder that ANY student gets an effective (albeit far from ideal!) education. Thankfully, I had really good teachers along the way who "found stuff" with which to
    challenge
    me (as the "standard fare" was a big yawn)

    I was fortunate. We didn't have 'junior high' or 'middle school' but the
    math and science curriculum was spiced up after the nation suffered an
    'oh shit' moment watching a Soviet beach ball orbiting. The high school
    had an EC (enriched curriculum) program that I was in. It was sort of a homegrown AP. RPI was literally across the street from the high school
    so there was talent on tap.


    Didn't you letter/dimension your drawings? Or, was the font entirely composed of straight line segments?

    http://www.behtek.com/DD/7-Alphabet.pdf

    Single-stroke gothic. We may have done inclined in the Engineering
    Drawing class but I never used it at work. Most of what I did was ladder diagram electrical schematics, nothing fancy, and I had a complete set
    of templates for limit switches, timers, control relays, and so forth.
    Same thing when we got to solid state, templates for the various gates
    and components.

    I used to like writing with a Rapidograph. But, got tired of keeping them clean. It did, however, cause me to invest more time in the act of writing (as it made the results so much "prettier")

    Never had one. It was all pencil, first with the lead holders and the whirly-gig sharpeners then with the 0.5 mm type like Pentel that didn't
    need sharpening.

    We were always on municipal water. But, lots of reservoirs around (I used
    to wonder how the water was kept *safe* from "bad actors" as there was nothing to prevent you from approaching any of them)

    Not too many bad actors back then. There were fantasies or paranoia
    depending on which side you were on like salting the Ashokan Reservoir
    with LSD but nobody had that much acid to spare. 2001 was the wake up
    call.


    However, the mindset was that water is "free" and limitless. Leave it running
    while shaving, brushing teeth, washing dishes, etc. Not so, here -- unless you're a business that feels a sense of entitlement to water a lush lawn! We're apologetic about our water usage but mainly for the fruit trees.
    OTOH, we harvest a few thousand pounds of fruit, annually, and *consume*
    it.
    Others let theirs rot on the tree... :<

    At least in the city letting the fruit rot on the tree is frowned on.
    There are enough bears wandering around looking for pet food without
    attracting them.

    There is a recreation area that includes a few old homesteads. The
    buildings are gone but some of the fruit trees remain. It amuses me in
    the fall to pass the apple trees along the trail and see the beaten
    paths around each tree where the bears have been circling around to see
    if supper is ready yet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 8 08:40:28 2022
    On Wed, 8 Jun 2022 08:40:53 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/08/2022 06:50 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 8:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/07/2022 12:22 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/7/2022 7:56 AM, rbowman wrote:


    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a >>>>> bagel.

    I've always wanted to try baking them. But, you need to want to eat
    LOTS
    of them to make it worth the effort!

    They're a lot of work. You proof the dough, shape them, boil them, and
    then you get around to baking them.

    Yes. I'm not afraid of the work (my cheesecake is a 5 hour stint at the
    stove)
    but, rather, consuming enough of them to justify the effort.

    I thought about making cheesecake once but got stopped in my tracks when
    I got to 'springform pan'. I haven't had really good cheesecake in a
    long time. My favorite espresso place had peanut butter cheesecake the
    last time I was in. Not bad but not as good as it sounded.


    Lots of interesting things go out of print pretty regularly. Two of my
    favorites: _Mots d'Heures: Gousses, Rames_ (you likely didn't catch the
    joke and, thus, the intent) and _The Yum Yum Book_. Both are delightfully >> creative!

    I volunteered at the library in NH when they were thinning the herd. One
    of the criteria for keeping a book was if it was in 'Books in Print'. I >thought a better test would be if it was worthwhile and not in print. I >brought home a complete set of John Burrough's essays that were in the >discard pile.

    Yes, of course... that makes sense -- NOT! It's a wonder that ANY student >> gets an effective (albeit far from ideal!) education. Thankfully, I had
    really good teachers along the way who "found stuff" with which to
    challenge
    me (as the "standard fare" was a big yawn)

    I was fortunate. We didn't have 'junior high' or 'middle school' but the
    math and science curriculum was spiced up after the nation suffered an
    'oh shit' moment watching a Soviet beach ball orbiting. The high school
    had an EC (enriched curriculum) program that I was in. It was sort of a >homegrown AP. RPI was literally across the street from the high school
    so there was talent on tap.


    Didn't you letter/dimension your drawings? Or, was the font entirely
    composed of straight line segments?

    http://www.behtek.com/DD/7-Alphabet.pdf

    Single-stroke gothic. We may have done inclined in the Engineering
    Drawing class but I never used it at work. Most of what I did was ladder >diagram electrical schematics, nothing fancy, and I had a complete set
    of templates for limit switches, timers, control relays, and so forth.
    Same thing when we got to solid state, templates for the various gates
    and components.

    I used to like writing with a Rapidograph. But, got tired of keeping them >> clean. It did, however, cause me to invest more time in the act of writing >> (as it made the results so much "prettier")

    Never had one. It was all pencil, first with the lead holders and the >whirly-gig sharpeners then with the 0.5 mm type like Pentel that didn't
    need sharpening.

    I still draw schematics and mechanical stuff. I have a nice old wood
    drafting table in front of a big window.

    I draw mostly freehand on D size grid paper, and then other people
    take over and CAD things and make them real. CAD entry slows me down.

    The big drawings photograph pretty well, given the right paper and
    pencils.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6jccizmw51ixg2/V377_DAC.JPG?raw=1

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv766ygplmbnzhx/P944_Sh2.jpg?raw=1

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/yn9w8mtzidfk3ig/Driver_Sh_1.JPG?raw=1


    Simpler stuff I can do on a gridded whiteboard and photograph that.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8glp2jvq4gkljb/Isrc_cascode_Ib.JPG?raw=1



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Jun 8 10:24:26 2022
    On 6/8/2022 7:40 AM, rbowman wrote:

    Sue did it right and made a pilgrimage to NYC to learn how to make a >>>>> bagel.

    I've always wanted to try baking them. But, you need to want to eat
    LOTS
    of them to make it worth the effort!

    They're a lot of work. You proof the dough, shape them, boil them, and
    then you get around to baking them.

    Yes. I'm not afraid of the work (my cheesecake is a 5 hour stint at the
    stove)
    but, rather, consuming enough of them to justify the effort.

    I thought about making cheesecake once but got stopped in my tracks when I got
    to 'springform pan'.

    I make mine (a much "lighter" variant) in a 9x13 glass baking dish (though finding ones with vertical sides is becoming increasingly difficult; any
    time I stumble across one in a second-hand shop, I buy it!)

    I haven't had really good cheesecake in a long time.

    I strongly dislike cheesecake (and am only fond of "cheese" when melted on pizza or grinders -- or sprinkled on pasta). Especially NY style (like a block of solid fat!).

    [But, then again, I don't like most of the things that I bake! :-/ This
    is interesting as it means I have to tweek my Rxs based on my interpretation
    of comments made from folks who consume them. Took me almost 30 years to "perfect" my biscotti Rx!]

    My favorite espresso place had peanut butter cheesecake the last time I was in.
    Not bad but not as good as it sounded.

    I make a pineapple variant. It takes about 90 minutes to "reduce" the pineapple to a thick paste. Almost an hour to make the crust (butter/flour/sugar/baking powder) and "tap" it into the pan in a
    very thin layer (the role of the crust is just to keep the pineapple
    from contacting the baking dish). Another large fraction of an hour to
    make the filling (must be smooth as milk as any "lumps" transfer
    directly to the final taste sensation). A bit over an hour to bake
    (and you can clean utensils while doing so). Then, a very long,
    *controlled* cooldown (to ensure it doesn't crack) before transfer
    to refrigerator.

    As most of these are eventually gifted away, the chilled cake is
    then frozen, cut into pieces and transferred to wax paper (to make
    it easier to extract from the "gift box").

    I've been told "you can trade this for sexual favors" (!) so now
    take to describing it as such. :>

    But, it is grossly unhealthy! I think something like 5500 calories
    (cut it into 250 calorie pieces so folks don't feel "too bad" eating
    them... of course, the *second* piece kind of negates that economy!)

    Lots of interesting things go out of print pretty regularly. Two of my
    favorites: _Mots d'Heures: Gousses, Rames_ (you likely didn't catch the
    joke and, thus, the intent) and _The Yum Yum Book_. Both are delightfully >> creative!

    I volunteered at the library in NH when they were thinning the herd. One of the
    criteria for keeping a book was if it was in 'Books in Print'. I thought a better test would be if it was worthwhile and not in print. I brought home a complete set of John Burrough's essays that were in the discard pile.

    The local librarians (many branches of one library) make these decisions somewhat informally. I think the biggest criteria they use is how often/recently it has been checked out. So, there is a huge churn
    in titles -- especially of "popular" titles and DVDs (when was the last
    time someone checked out _The Wizard of Oz_? Does that mean it's not
    worth keeping in the collection??)

    [Libraries have changed over the years. Now they want to be "social
    gathering places". You'd be hard-pressed to do *research* in one!
    OTOH, they have been very effective at locating particular documents
    or texts that I needed for my work efforts. (This is apparently an
    expensive undertaking. So, I reciprocate by volunteering, making
    goodies for the folks at the local branch, etc.)]

    The discards are fed to a volunteer organization that holds frequent book
    sales benefiting the library. Yet, the taxpayer foots the bill for all
    the new titles purchased (the book sales fund special programs or furniture purchases, etc.)

    SWMBO has literally hundreds of art books acquired through those sales.
    The sorts of titles you'd expect to find as, say, *references* at a place
    like, maybe, a LIBRARY... <frown>

    Yes, of course... that makes sense -- NOT! It's a wonder that ANY student >> gets an effective (albeit far from ideal!) education. Thankfully, I had
    really good teachers along the way who "found stuff" with which to
    challenge
    me (as the "standard fare" was a big yawn)

    I was fortunate. We didn't have 'junior high' or 'middle school' but the math and science curriculum was spiced up after the nation suffered an 'oh shit' moment watching a Soviet beach ball orbiting. The high school had an EC (enriched curriculum) program that I was in. It was sort of a homegrown AP. RPI
    was literally across the street from the high school so there was talent on tap.

    My public education was actually quite good. But, I tended to be assigned
    to the better/best teachers, etc. No idea how those in the "business" path fared.

    "Field trips" were pretty common (Washington DC, Philadelphia, Boston, NYC, etc.) so we saw a lot of things first hand that others likely just read about.

    The school district (well funded) also spent quite a bit on "gifted" programs. I attended a summer school program hosted by the school system for reading and science programs from about age 10. At 12, I started attending an out-of-town program on Saturdays & summers for advanced science underwritten by the school district (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talcott_Mountain_Science_Center>).
    Was pushed by my guidance counselors to start taking college classes (nights) from age 14 (because the school system had nothing comparable to offer).
    And, eventually pushed off to college when I ran out of high school courseware! (I had to return to high school, later, to "graduate" as there were basic requirements that had to be met for a high school diploma -- like 4 years of English, 4 years of PE, etc.)

    My point being that they didn't hesitate to push as much education on kids
    that could benefit from it.

    Didn't you letter/dimension your drawings? Or, was the font entirely
    composed of straight line segments?

    http://www.behtek.com/DD/7-Alphabet.pdf

    Single-stroke gothic. We may have done inclined in the Engineering Drawing class but I never used it at work. Most of what I did was ladder diagram electrical schematics, nothing fancy, and I had a complete set of templates for
    limit switches, timers, control relays, and so forth. Same thing when we got to
    solid state, templates for the various gates and components.

    Ah. My drafting class was in JrHigh -- along with metal and wood "shops".
    In business, I used a lettering guide to keep my schematics pretty.

    I used to like writing with a Rapidograph. But, got tired of keeping them >> clean. It did, however, cause me to invest more time in the act of writing >> (as it made the results so much "prettier")

    Never had one. It was all pencil, first with the lead holders and the whirly-gig sharpeners then with the 0.5 mm type like Pentel that didn't need sharpening.

    I keep lead holders by each workstation and a lead pointer that always seems
    to be somewhere *else*. But, try to do most of my drawings in electronic format as it is SO much easier to make changes when the connections "rubber band". The days of D & E size drawings are gladly behind me! (I design to
    a D size but render on B paper)

    Rapidographs are considerably classier. But, also less forgiving as they
    use india ink.

    We were always on municipal water. But, lots of reservoirs around (I used >> to wonder how the water was kept *safe* from "bad actors" as there was
    nothing to prevent you from approaching any of them)

    Not too many bad actors back then. There were fantasies or paranoia depending on which side you were on like salting the Ashokan Reservoir with LSD but nobody had that much acid to spare. 2001 was the wake up call.

    Yup. We are woefully "trusting" in our infrastructure. The local well is
    100 yards from here, "protected" by a 6' wall that could easily be scaled.
    The chlorine concentrate sits in a 55G barrel out in the open sun; drill
    a hole in it and you can introduce anything to the water supply. Is it
    assayed in real-time? Or, just periodically? Is the assay upstream or downstream from the chlorine injector? etc.

    Likewise, natural gas lines, electric substations, etc.

    Sadly, we are reactive instead of PROactive. Everyone (i.e., the powers
    that be) will be "surprised" (as in "not having foreseen that") when something new happens. And, they'll rush to put a bandaid on that without further thought as to OTHER vulnerabilities that should suggest.

    <frown>

    However, the mindset was that water is "free" and limitless. Leave it
    running
    while shaving, brushing teeth, washing dishes, etc. Not so, here -- unless >> you're a business that feels a sense of entitlement to water a lush lawn!
    We're apologetic about our water usage but mainly for the fruit trees.
    OTOH, we harvest a few thousand pounds of fruit, annually, and *consume*
    it.
    Others let theirs rot on the tree... :<

    At least in the city letting the fruit rot on the tree is frowned on. There are
    enough bears wandering around looking for pet food without attracting them.

    Ah, I'd not considered that! We're far enough INTO town that the only real wildlife are bobcat and javelina. A bear in the neighborhood once but that
    was an exception (though the image of him climbing over the wall gave new meaning to "hung like a bear"!)

    I think most folks just don't want to be bothered with the effort to grow
    good *tasting* fruit. They have one or more trees and notice that the fruit
    is small, dry, tart, etc. and dismiss it in favor of store bought. Folks
    who "know better" are equally lazy and more opportunistic

    We had a neighbor move in and, in the process of introducing ourselves to them, the wife admired our citrus trees and was *foolish* enough to add, "Oh, don't bother growing citrus! Just make sure you have a neighbor who does!" I
    wonder if she's sorted out, after all these years, that we don't gift fruit
    to neighbors (except fruit that we have in OVER-abundance -- like limes)?

    Another neighbor admired our limes and commented that he uses limes in his cooking. I quickly pointed out, "Good thing YOU have a lime tree on your property!" (i.e., you can harvest your own limes, thankyouverymuch!)

    [Always amusing when folks find something too costly or difficult for
    THEM to do -- but not too costly to expect OTHERS to do FOR them!]

    There is a recreation area that includes a few old homesteads. The buildings are gone but some of the fruit trees remain. It amuses me in the fall to pass the apple trees along the trail and see the beaten paths around each tree where
    the bears have been circling around to see if supper is ready yet.

    Ha! One of our dogs used to sit under the big Navel and sniff the scent
    from the blossoms, watch the fruit mature, etc. We'd share bits of the
    fruit with her and wondered if she had actually made the connection:
    "These are mine!"

    Sadly, no (good) apples, here. Too hot, I guess. I miss the Macouns
    from home (sweet and firm). Can't find them in markets so possibly a
    very regional variety. For a while, I enjoyed the juice of a Sanguinello orange but it got whacked in one bad winter. The juice was such a
    delightful color and sickeningly sweet!

    No fruit in my diet, presently (save tomatoes). Obviously a deficiency
    that I *should* address...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jun 8 22:00:35 2022
    On 06/08/2022 11:24 AM, Don Y wrote:

    I strongly dislike cheesecake (and am only fond of "cheese" when melted on pizza or grinders -- or sprinkled on pasta). Especially NY style (like
    a block
    of solid fat!).

    I like cheese in all it's various forms. What I don't like is that stuff
    that starts with Jello.


    SWMBO has literally hundreds of art books acquired through those sales.
    The sorts of titles you'd expect to find as, say, *references* at a place like, maybe, a LIBRARY... <frown>

    My wife was a librarian and started at the Forbes in Northampton MA
    which is also the Calvin Coolidge Presidential Library. Among the usual
    stuff they have his electric horse. She would never let me ride it...

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/86888/show-tell-calvin-coolidges-electric-exercise-horse

    Anyway while poking around in the dusty stacks she came upon an Audubon
    double elephant folio

    https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/john-james-audubon-the-double-elephant-folio

    It wasn't clear the library even knew what they had.

    My public education was actually quite good. But, I tended to be assigned
    to the better/best teachers, etc. No idea how those in the "business" path fared.

    Nor do I. The homeroom included some business or shop people but when
    the bell rang we went our separate ways. They took typing and Spanish
    among other subjects. The college entrance kids took two years of Latin followed by a modern language, French for the liberal arts bound, German
    for the engineers along with the usual courses. In later life I realized Spanish and typing would have been a lot more useful.

    "Field trips" were pretty common (Washington DC, Philadelphia, Boston, NYC, etc.) so we saw a lot of things first hand that others likely just read about.

    We did have a few field trips like to the Stratford CT for Lear at the
    American Shakespeare Theater, and a rather poorly chaperoned
    (thankfully) trip to NYC for Spoon River Anthology. A couple of friends
    and myself went to the World's Fair on GE's dime but that wasn't a
    school trip. GE was trying to lure potential engineers.

    They weren't much of a trip but RPI had a number of events to pique
    people's interest.

    I did take a summer biology class that was mostly field trips. That was
    fun. Well, maybe not the trip to the Albany sewage plant. A worked
    sidled up and asked 'You kids get extra credits for coming to this place?'

    Was pushed by my guidance counselors to start taking college classes
    (nights)
    from age 14 (because the school system had nothing comparable to offer).
    And, eventually pushed off to college when I ran out of high school courseware!

    Calculus wasn't normal high school fare but I took it after normal
    school hours. The teacher was from RPI so it was their freshmen calculus course. His name was Dis Maly and he lived up to it. The previous summer
    I'd taken a summer course in linear equations in preparation that was
    taught by his wife, a wonderful teacher.

    My point being that they didn't hesitate to push as much education on kids that could benefit from it.

    Like I said there was a bit of a panic after Sputnik for STEM education
    so the schools were on their good behavior. Being in NYS helped too. The Regents exams were state wide and schools didn't want to look
    incompetent at the end of the year.

    Ah. My drafting class was in JrHigh -- along with metal and wood "shops".
    In business, I used a lettering guide to keep my schematics pretty.

    We had a shop class. The best thing that could be said was everyone left
    at the end of the year with all the body parts they started with.

    I keep lead holders by each workstation and a lead pointer that always
    seems
    to be somewhere *else*. But, try to do most of my drawings in electronic format as it is SO much easier to make changes when the connections "rubber band". The days of D & E size drawings are gladly behind me! (I design to
    a D size but render on B paper)

    My drawing days were pretty much behind me the CAD started taking over.
    Strange to say I'm a CAD programmer -- Computer Aided Dispatch.

    https://www.dhs.gov/publication/cad-systems

    We've had a couple of very confused people at job interviews that had
    failed to do their due diligence.


    Sadly, we are reactive instead of PROactive. Everyone (i.e., the powers
    that be) will be "surprised" (as in "not having foreseen that") when something
    new happens. And, they'll rush to put a bandaid on that without further thought as to OTHER vulnerabilities that should suggest.

    <frown>

    Yeah, Yellen's 'Who'd ever thunk it?' didn't impress me. I have no
    expertise in economics, foreign affairs, etc. etc. so I wonder why I
    often can predict the outcome better than all the king's men (and women).


    At least in the city letting the fruit rot on the tree is frowned on.
    There are enough bears wandering around looking for pet food without
    attracting them.

    Ah, I'd not considered that! We're far enough INTO town that the only real wildlife are bobcat and javelina. A bear in the neighborhood once but that was an exception (though the image of him climbing over the wall gave new meaning to "hung like a bear"!)

    The city isn't that big and the edges are at open spaces. The university
    prides itself on being the only school in the country with a mountain on
    campus -- which also means wildlife on campus. The bears are no big deal
    but the cats raise more alarms particularly in the vicinity of school
    bus stops. As far as deer, there is no need to buy kitschy lawn
    ornaments. A couple of rivers run through town and there are a number of islands that aren't utilized since they flood every year. That led to a
    moose on the loose one year but that was a rarity.

    I think most folks just don't want to be bothered with the effort to grow good *tasting* fruit. They have one or more trees and notice that the
    fruit
    is small, dry, tart, etc. and dismiss it in favor of store bought. Folks
    who "know better" are equally lazy and more opportunistic

    There are some orchards down the Bitterroot but they tend to produce
    small, lumpy Macs. There are a couple of (hard) cider operations that
    absorb a lot of them. There is even a part of town called Orchard Homes.
    They were productive in the early 20th century but blight and drought
    hit them hard in the '20s and they never recovered. There were also
    problems getting the apples to the markets. It's a minor part of
    Steinbeck's 'East of Eden' but refrigeration wasn't available.

    Climate change strikes again. The start of the 20th century was
    abnormally wet in Montana and many people were sold homesteads in
    eastern Montana that promised to be productive farms. Then the climate
    went back to normal.

    [Always amusing when folks find something too costly or difficult for
    THEM to do -- but not too costly to expect OTHERS to do FOR them!]

    One company I worked for did contract electronic assembly for people
    like DEC and GTE and the workforce was mainly women. A delegation
    approached us and asked if the company would sponsor a softball team. No problem. we would but the uniforms, pay any fees for the ball fields,
    and might even occasionally pick up the tab for a post game party. So
    far so good but when we said we were NOT going to run the team the
    interest faded away.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 9 00:11:01 2022
    On 6/8/2022 9:00 PM, rbowman wrote:
    SWMBO has literally hundreds of art books acquired through those sales.
    The sorts of titles you'd expect to find as, say, *references* at a place
    like, maybe, a LIBRARY... <frown>

    My wife was a librarian and started at the Forbes in Northampton MA which is also the Calvin Coolidge Presidential Library. Among the usual stuff they have
    his electric horse. She would never let me ride it...

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/86888/show-tell-calvin-coolidges-electric-exercise-horse

    That would probably be entertaining! Though I would assume not
    as intense as the "bulls" in cowboy bars (?)

    My public education was actually quite good. But, I tended to be assigned >> to the better/best teachers, etc. No idea how those in the "business" path >> fared.

    Nor do I. The homeroom included some business or shop people but when the bell
    rang we went our separate ways.

    "Homeroom"... I'd forgotten that concept!

    They took typing and Spanish among other
    subjects. The college entrance kids took two years of Latin followed by a modern language, French for the liberal arts bound, German for the engineers along with the usual courses.

    In JrHigh, we were offered a choice of Latin, Spanish and French. None seemed particularly useful to me so I opted for two years of French. So, by the time I'd made it to High school, there wasn't much reason to start with another language (esp as the curriculum assumed you'd already had that language previously)

    In later life I realized Spanish and typing would
    have been a lot more useful.

    No need for Spanish in Lily White suburbia so it wasn't even a consideration. Everyone (?) took a year of typing in JrHigh so no option there.

    Now, of course, Spanish would have been a considerably better choice
    (living in the southwest). But, I can often get a clue as to what
    is being said based on *some* similarities to French.

    [And, SWMBO enjoys foreign language films (English subtitled) so is
    amused when I can understand the french ones]

    "Field trips" were pretty common (Washington DC, Philadelphia, Boston, NYC, >> etc.) so we saw a lot of things first hand that others likely just read
    about.

    We did have a few field trips like to the Stratford CT for Lear at the American
    Shakespeare Theater,

    I recall seeing _Carmen_, there.

    Every 5th grade class produced/acted a Shakespearean play (for my year, it was _The Merchant of Venice_).

    Most trips were tie-ins to things we were learning in classes. E.g., Boston/Concord/Lexington/Philadelphia/DC all had "American History"
    tie ins (two years of Amer History required to graduate along with
    two years of Amer Literature). NY we'd visit the UN, Empire St, etc.
    DC was monuments and museums (I still feel sorry for folks who've not
    had the opportunity to tour the many museums, there!). As nuclear
    power was "new and exciting" (?), we toured the Connecticut Yankee
    facility. I recall a tour of Pratt & Whitney. Mystic seaport. Local newspaper. etc.

    While we tended to welcome the trips (as it meant we weren't *in*
    school), they also tended to be really long days -- leaving before dawn
    and returning after nightfall. But, you knew there would be no "pop
    quizzes" on those days nor any *homework* assigned!

    and a rather poorly chaperoned (thankfully) trip to NYC
    for Spoon River Anthology. A couple of friends and myself went to the World's Fair on GE's dime but that wasn't a school trip. GE was trying to lure potential engineers.

    They weren't much of a trip but RPI had a number of events to pique people's interest.

    I did take a summer biology class that was mostly field trips. That was fun. Well, maybe not the trip to the Albany sewage plant. A worked sidled up and asked 'You kids get extra credits for coming to this place?'

    One of the most entertaining was a trip to a local bakery. Lots of
    "samples"!

    Was pushed by my guidance counselors to start taking college classes
    (nights)
    from age 14 (because the school system had nothing comparable to offer).
    And, eventually pushed off to college when I ran out of high school
    courseware!

    Calculus wasn't normal high school fare but I took it after normal school hours. The teacher was from RPI so it was their freshmen calculus course. His name was Dis Maly and he lived up to it. The previous summer I'd taken a summer
    course in linear equations in preparation that was taught by his wife, a wonderful teacher.

    Calculus was part of the college prep curriculum, senior year. As my "schedule" was accelerated, I took it as a Junior -- after having had
    two semesters at college (nights).

    So, teacher would let me do my *other* homework during class which
    usually meant I could go home without any work to do.

    My point being that they didn't hesitate to push as much education on kids >> that could benefit from it.

    Like I said there was a bit of a panic after Sputnik for STEM education so the
    schools were on their good behavior. Being in NYS helped too. The Regents exams
    were state wide and schools didn't want to look incompetent at the end of the year.

    I remember taking lots of "standardized tests" but can't recall what
    they were for (other than SATs). Being a good student meant the tests were just inconveniences for me.

    Ah. My drafting class was in JrHigh -- along with metal and wood "shops". >> In business, I used a lettering guide to keep my schematics pretty.

    We had a shop class. The best thing that could be said was everyone left at the
    end of the year with all the body parts they started with.

    I liked shop. I think I enjoyed metal more than wood as we also
    did castings, turned parts on the lathe, etc. I made a nice little
    ball-peen hammer with knurled handle that I still have, somewhere.
    And some lamps that were still hanging in my bedroom until that
    house was sold.

    I would LOVE to have a brake. And, spot-welder. But, prefer having
    the space they would otherwise occupy.

    [Local maker house doesn't have a brake else I would probably join.
    Most of the other tools they'd offer I could work-around, but not
    a brake!]

    I keep lead holders by each workstation and a lead pointer that always
    seems
    to be somewhere *else*. But, try to do most of my drawings in electronic
    format as it is SO much easier to make changes when the connections "rubber >> band". The days of D & E size drawings are gladly behind me! (I design to >> a D size but render on B paper)

    My drawing days were pretty much behind me the CAD started taking over.

    I was an early adopter; I started drawing schematics with FutureNET in ~85 (?) and still find its interface considerably more productive (for drawing) than anything that's come along since. But, it's a dead product -- along
    with most of the rest of that "suite". A shame as it meant all of the libraries I had created at that time were useless.

    I've adapted to whichever toolchain clients have used to make the
    incorporation of my documents into their "process" easier. There's
    a lot of variation in terms of quality and ease of use that most folks
    never experience (cuz they stick with ONE toolchain)

    Strange to say I'm a CAD programmer -- Computer Aided Dispatch.

    https://www.dhs.gov/publication/cad-systems

    We've had a couple of very confused people at job interviews that had failed to
    do their due diligence.

    I've had the same problem with "gaming" -- esp as I've worked in both interpretations of the term (video games and gambling).

    Sadly, we are reactive instead of PROactive. Everyone (i.e., the powers
    that be) will be "surprised" (as in "not having foreseen that") when
    something
    new happens. And, they'll rush to put a bandaid on that without further
    thought as to OTHER vulnerabilities that should suggest.

    <frown>

    Yeah, Yellen's 'Who'd ever thunk it?' didn't impress me. I have no expertise in
    economics, foreign affairs, etc. etc. so I wonder why I often can predict the outcome better than all the king's men (and women).

    It's a question of *thinking* about the situation instead of just observing it.

    I'm *really* (REALLY!) good at finding bugs in people's designs because I
    can easily think of everything that *could* happen instead of just the
    things that SHOULD happen.

    At least in the city letting the fruit rot on the tree is frowned on.
    There are enough bears wandering around looking for pet food without
    attracting them.

    Ah, I'd not considered that! We're far enough INTO town that the only real >> wildlife are bobcat and javelina. A bear in the neighborhood once but that >> was an exception (though the image of him climbing over the wall gave new
    meaning to "hung like a bear"!)

    The city isn't that big and the edges are at open spaces.

    That's similar to here; nothing much beyond the city limits for tens of miles.

    The university prides
    itself on being the only school in the country with a mountain on campus --

    We've got the southernmost ski slope! :>

    which also means wildlife on campus. The bears are no big deal but the cats raise more alarms particularly in the vicinity of school bus stops.

    There is a popular "national park" in town at which folks regularly hike recreationally. But, you're on THEIR turf while there. People tend to forget.

    I am cautious when walking the neighborhood after dark. It's not uncommon to encounter coyote, javelina or bobcat. Alarming to find them in your (walled) backyard! :<

    As far as
    deer, there is no need to buy kitschy lawn ornaments. A couple of rivers run through town and there are a number of islands that aren't utilized since they
    flood every year. That led to a moose on the loose one year but that was a rarity.

    I think most folks just don't want to be bothered with the effort to grow
    good *tasting* fruit. They have one or more trees and notice that the
    fruit
    is small, dry, tart, etc. and dismiss it in favor of store bought. Folks
    who "know better" are equally lazy and more opportunistic

    There are some orchards down the Bitterroot but they tend to produce small, lumpy Macs. There are a couple of (hard) cider operations that absorb a lot of
    them. There is even a part of town called Orchard Homes. They were productive in the early 20th century but blight and drought hit them hard in the '20s and
    they never recovered. There were also problems getting the apples to the markets. It's a minor part of Steinbeck's 'East of Eden' but refrigeration wasn't available.

    I grew up essentially surrounded by apple orchards. We would routinely
    go pick our own fruit -- fun as a kid where climbing was more recreation
    than chore. Now, I think I'd rather someone else do the picking!

    The Macouns are pretty delicate -- look at them funny and they bruise.
    While living in Denver (I think... maybe Chicago), my folks shipped me a
    bushel of them -- each one individually wrapped to survive the trip. It
    was a delightful treat.

    Climate change strikes again. The start of the 20th century was abnormally wet
    in Montana and many people were sold homesteads in eastern Montana that promised to be productive farms. Then the climate went back to normal.

    [Always amusing when folks find something too costly or difficult for
    THEM to do -- but not too costly to expect OTHERS to do FOR them!]

    One company I worked for did contract electronic assembly for people like DEC and GTE and the workforce was mainly women. A delegation approached us and asked if the company would sponsor a softball team. No problem. we would but the uniforms, pay any fees for the ball fields, and might even occasionally pick up the tab for a post game party. So far so good but when we said we were
    NOT going to run the team the interest faded away.

    It's amusing to see how quickly people want *power* -- but how strenuously
    they avoid WORK and RESPONSIBILITY.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Thu Jun 9 12:39:24 2022
    On 03/06/2022 19:12, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 10:54:57 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until
    about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.

    Our serious noise source is un-muffled motorcycles. The morons love to
    blip! blip! just to wake up more people.

    That was an interesting problem at night in Japan too but even more of a problem was the police chasing them whilst obeying the speed limit and
    using a loudhailer to ask them to stop making a noise (I kid you not!).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bōsōzoku

    Where I lived wasn't a big problem but in the expensive foreigner
    ghettos they liked to go for a ride and annoy the expats like my boss.

    In the UK anything without a silencer would be fairly quickly pulled
    over by the police. Is that not the case in the USA too?

    Some custom cars here have silencers that deliberately resonate or
    backfire under rapid acceleration but are just within the letter of the
    law. UK police seem to be getting sloppy about enforcing some laws.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Thu Jun 9 06:43:48 2022
    On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 12:39:24 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 03/06/2022 19:12, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 10:54:57 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    Par for the course these days. Our bin men don't get to my village until >>> about lunchtime so it isn't a problem for me.

    Our serious noise source is un-muffled motorcycles. The morons love to
    blip! blip! just to wake up more people.

    That was an interesting problem at night in Japan too but even more of a >problem was the police chasing them whilst obeying the speed limit and
    using a loudhailer to ask them to stop making a noise (I kid you not!).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B?s?zoku

    Where I lived wasn't a big problem but in the expensive foreigner
    ghettos they liked to go for a ride and annoy the expats like my boss.

    In the UK anything without a silencer would be fairly quickly pulled
    over by the police. Is that not the case in the USA too?

    Here in SF there has lately been no prosecution of "minor crimes" like
    vehicle violations, car break-ins, drug sales, or shoplifting. Which
    is why we just dumped the Soros-funded D.A. in a famous recall.



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jun 9 08:23:40 2022
    On 06/09/2022 01:11 AM, Don Y wrote:
    Now, of course, Spanish would have been a considerably better choice
    (living in the southwest). But, I can often get a clue as to what
    is being said based on *some* similarities to French.

    Latin theoretically would be helpful. I don't know more than a few words
    in French which led to some amusing moments while working in Quebec.


    facility. I recall a tour of Pratt & Whitney. Mystic seaport. Local newspaper. etc.

    My 'tour' of P&W lacked a lot. I was given a minder who escorted me the
    the machinery I was repair. It was surrounded by welding screens so I
    couldn't get nosy. At lunch time he gave me two choices. We could go to
    the office cafeteria where all the pretty secretaries hung out, or we
    could go to the workers cafeteria where we could get two bottles of
    beer. He was relieved when I chose the beer. Times have changed and I
    doubt that beer is on the menu anymore.

    Calculus was part of the college prep curriculum, senior year. As my "schedule" was accelerated, I took it as a Junior -- after having had
    two semesters at college (nights).

    It seems to have gotten pushed back to high school. The standard fare
    for senior year in my high school was spherical trig. I didn't take it
    because of the calc path. Again in retrospect I can't remember the last
    time I used calculus but I do a lot of GIS work where spherical trig is somewhat helpful.

    I remember taking lots of "standardized tests" but can't recall what
    they were for (other than SATs). Being a good student meant the tests were just inconveniences for me.

    We had the Regents exams, the SATs, and the National Merit Scholarship
    exams. I was a mediocre student, then came the tests. I had the highest
    score on the Regents scholarship test in the county. When that was
    announced over the PA during homeroom period the general reaction was
    'Who is that?' I wasn't one of the bright academic lights. Not only did
    that net me a scholarship but the opportunity to work for the NYS Dept.
    of Education summers. The was a runner up for the NMS, but didn't get
    that and the SAT scores were similar. All of a sudden they were adding
    another name to the National Honor Society induction ceremony.

    Because of the performance on the Regents test I also got a prize for excellence in biology. It was all of $50 but it pissed off a girl who
    thought she had it in the bag. I'd been unsuccessfully pursuing her and
    that completely put an end to that.

    In college I resumed my gentleman's C performance for most courses that
    didn't capture my imagination.

    I would LOVE to have a brake. And, spot-welder. But, prefer having
    the space they would otherwise occupy.

    I'd like a welder although I'd probably go with gas as being more
    versatile. I was semi-competent with a stick back in the day but it's
    been decades.

    [Local maker house doesn't have a brake else I would probably join.
    Most of the other tools they'd offer I could work-around, but not
    a brake!]

    The new library has a lot of nice toys, scanners, 3D printers, laser
    cutters, and so on but I don't know if they have a brake. The library
    opening was delayed because of the plague and when it finally opened
    masks were required so my exploratory tour was brief. At least so far
    they've dropped the masks. I just heard on the radio that they're now
    required for Federal buildings at Glacier NP.

    I've adapted to whichever toolchain clients have used to make the incorporation of my documents into their "process" easier. There's
    a lot of variation in terms of quality and ease of use that most folks
    never experience (cuz they stick with ONE toolchain)

    I was an early adopter of 'portable' (a 21 pound Osborne 1) computers. I
    could bring my happy little environment into a client's plant rather
    than using whatever weird lashup they had. Compared to using a cross
    compiler on an elderly PDP11 that was hogged by the bean counters it was heaven.

    I've had the same problem with "gaming" -- esp as I've worked in both interpretations of the term (video games and gambling).

    I don't know if they're still in business but there was a video poker
    company out in Bozeman that I sniffed at but I couldn't work up a lot of interest.

    I'm *really* (REALLY!) good at finding bugs in people's designs because I
    can easily think of everything that *could* happen instead of just the
    things that SHOULD happen.

    My day will probably be looking at some code that was based on optimism.
    A crash was reported by one of our ops people training at a new site
    about 1700 yesterday. I took a brief look and I think it's been a
    problem for the last 5 years but nobody ever used the 'feature' twice.

    The university prides itself on being the only school in the country
    with a mountain on campus --

    We've got the southernmost ski slope! :>

    Mt. Lemmon doesn't count...

    I am cautious when walking the neighborhood after dark. It's not
    uncommon to
    encounter coyote, javelina or bobcat. Alarming to find them in your
    (walled)
    backyard! :<

    When I wintered at Why AZ, walking in the dark was interesting. My
    favorite was the sidewinders that would run out of gas after sundown and
    curl up wherever. Even in the day it was hard to figure out exactly
    which direction they were headed in.

    I'd left some weevily rice outside that I was going to take to the dump
    the next day. While reading I heard noises outside and found a herd of
    javelina helping themselves. I treated it as a photo op and they didn't
    seem to mind. The park is called Coyote Howls and that isn't
    overselling. At the end of the season when there weren't many people
    around I'd be reading and a coyote would casually stroll by like a
    domestic dog.

    I hear them at night sometimes but they're shyer up here. When I hear
    the yipping I figure another cat done gone.

    I grew up essentially surrounded by apple orchards. We would routinely
    go pick our own fruit -- fun as a kid where climbing was more recreation
    than chore. Now, I think I'd rather someone else do the picking!

    Upstate NY was apple country so fall was a great time. There were a lot
    more cultivars available since everyone hadn't homed in on mass market favorites. My favorite for eating were the Northern Spys.

    It's amusing to see how quickly people want *power* -- but how strenuously they avoid WORK and RESPONSIBILITY.

    Power is fun! Taking responsibility is something else.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 9 09:03:12 2022
    On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 08:23:40 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 06/09/2022 01:11 AM, Don Y wrote:
    Now, of course, Spanish would have been a considerably better choice
    (living in the southwest). But, I can often get a clue as to what
    is being said based on *some* similarities to French.

    Latin theoretically would be helpful. I don't know more than a few words
    in French which led to some amusing moments while working in Quebec.


    facility. I recall a tour of Pratt & Whitney. Mystic seaport. Local
    newspaper. etc.

    My 'tour' of P&W lacked a lot. I was given a minder who escorted me the
    the machinery I was repair. It was surrounded by welding screens so I >couldn't get nosy. At lunch time he gave me two choices. We could go to
    the office cafeteria where all the pretty secretaries hung out, or we
    could go to the workers cafeteria where we could get two bottles of
    beer. He was relieved when I chose the beer. Times have changed and I
    doubt that beer is on the menu anymore.

    We visited a Fellow of United Technologies and had a working
    brainstorm session and a cool tour of Pratt in Hartford. One
    stadium-size room was a training center for visiting engine mechanics,
    and there were dozens of engines on the floor in various states of
    disassembly.

    We also walked around inside an engine test cell that could test an
    engine at full power and simulated temperature and altitude. That was
    about a city block or three, including the gigantic array of exhaust
    fans and refrigeration machinery. I think they have retired that
    facility and now strap the test engines onto a special 747 and
    actually fly them. Low presssure and temperature are free up there.





    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Jun 9 12:42:55 2022
    On 6/9/2022 7:23 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 01:11 AM, Don Y wrote:
    Now, of course, Spanish would have been a considerably better choice
    (living in the southwest). But, I can often get a clue as to what
    is being said based on *some* similarities to French.

    Latin theoretically would be helpful. I don't know more than a few words in French which led to some amusing moments while working in Quebec.

    In theory, it would help with roots of words. But, I wonder, in
    practice, how many folks actually *use* that skillset (assuming they
    took Latin AND remember enough of it).

    facility. I recall a tour of Pratt & Whitney. Mystic seaport. Local
    newspaper. etc.

    My 'tour' of P&W lacked a lot. I was given a minder who escorted me the the machinery I was repair. It was surrounded by welding screens so I couldn't get
    nosy. At lunch time he gave me two choices. We could go to the office cafeteria
    where all the pretty secretaries hung out, or we could go to the workers cafeteria where we could get two bottles of beer. He was relieved when I chose
    the beer. Times have changed and I doubt that beer is on the menu anymore.

    Local company, local kids, good for PR. Kids aren't particularly nosy
    (show them something *big* so they can say "Wow!" and that's about it).

    I recall seeing some 24" diameter bearings marked "scrap". Gotta wonder
    who's weeks pay THAT was!

    Calculus was part of the college prep curriculum, senior year. As my
    "schedule" was accelerated, I took it as a Junior -- after having had
    two semesters at college (nights).

    It seems to have gotten pushed back to high school. The standard fare for senior year in my high school was spherical trig. I didn't take it because of the calc path. Again in retrospect I can't remember the last time I used calculus but I do a lot of GIS work where spherical trig is somewhat helpful.

    Most of our high (and jrhi) curriculum was preset. E.g., if you were a freshman, you were taking geometry; a senior, calculus. Likewise for
    "science" (biology, chemistry and physics, in that order -- I forget the freshman science course as I skipped it).

    Requirements for English meant everyone got the same dosage. But, if you
    opted for only 2 years of science, you could likely pick WHICH two subjects
    (by planning which YEAR you were going to take them).

    [Oddly, I don't recall 4 years of science or math being required. But,
    *do* recall 4 years of english and PE as I had to bring proof that
    I'd taken them at college in order to graduate high school. Silly
    system!]

    I remember taking lots of "standardized tests" but can't recall what
    they were for (other than SATs). Being a good student meant the tests were >> just inconveniences for me.

    We had the Regents exams, the SATs, and the National Merit Scholarship exams. I
    was a mediocre student, then came the tests. I had the highest score on the Regents scholarship test in the county. When that was announced over the PA during homeroom period the general reaction was 'Who is that?' I wasn't one of
    the bright academic lights. Not only did that net me a scholarship but the opportunity to work for the NYS Dept. of Education summers. The was a runner up
    for the NMS, but didn't get that and the SAT scores were similar. All of a sudden they were adding another name to the National Honor Society induction ceremony.

    I was awarded a NM scholarship. Plus some dinky little ones "locally sourced". I never got to take the PSATs as my counselor essentially told me I had to leave school due to lack of remaining courses -- and rushed to get me into
    a SAT sitting Junior year. (I remember being sick when I took them, in an unheated cafeteria, wearing a winter coat -- but had no alternative for scheduling as I needed to apply for schools THAT year)

    Because of the performance on the Regents test I also got a prize for excellence in biology. It was all of $50 but it pissed off a girl who thought she had it in the bag. I'd been unsuccessfully pursuing her and that completely
    put an end to that.

    Heh heh heh... we had a group of students that would "compete" in
    math "tests" around the state (math jocks?). My teacher made the
    mistake of registering me as a Junior (which, technically, I was,
    as it was my third year of school) instead of a Senior (which could
    also be claimed as it was my LAST year of school). So, instead of
    getting a $500 scholarship as highest performer, I got some silly
    calculator (um, isn't that like giving a bicycle to a champion sprinter?)

    In college I resumed my gentleman's C performance for most courses that didn't
    capture my imagination.

    I enjoyed much of the material to which I was exposed in college.
    Not keen on the election of 8 required "humaities" courses to
    graduate -- so, I took things like American History and Amer Literature
    ("gee, I already know this stuff!")

    [Thankfully, my American History professor was an economist. So, I
    got reexposed to history without the patriotic bias but with an
    economic basis. Actually made it considerably more interesting!]

    I would LOVE to have a brake. And, spot-welder. But, prefer having
    the space they would otherwise occupy.

    I'd like a welder although I'd probably go with gas as being more versatile. I
    was semi-competent with a stick back in the day but it's been decades.

    I rely on friends for those things. As space is at a premium, I have
    to be careful which "big" things I acquire as that means lots of
    LITTLE things will have to be shed. That means lots of decisions to
    make. By contrast, shedding a big thing is a *single* decision! :>

    [Local maker house doesn't have a brake else I would probably join.
    Most of the other tools they'd offer I could work-around, but not
    a brake!]

    The new library has a lot of nice toys, scanners, 3D printers, laser cutters, and so on but I don't know if they have a brake. The library opening was delayed because of the plague and when it finally opened masks were required so
    my exploratory tour was brief. At least so far they've dropped the masks. I just heard on the radio that they're now required for Federal buildings at Glacier NP.

    Nothing beyond PCs at our libraries. Though color prints are only a dime (which makes it silly to own a color printer!)

    Maker house has laser cutter, CNCs, 3D printers -- plus metal and wood
    shop stuff. But, they've been unable to acquire a brake (relying
    largely on donated kit/money) or spot welder.

    I've adapted to whichever toolchain clients have used to make the
    incorporation of my documents into their "process" easier. There's
    a lot of variation in terms of quality and ease of use that most folks
    never experience (cuz they stick with ONE toolchain)

    I was an early adopter of 'portable' (a 21 pound Osborne 1) computers. I could

    I had an Otrona back in the day. Eventually a Compaq Portable, then Portable 386 and a Sun Voyager. I still have the latter two (Portable 386 has a 2-slot ISA "bag" that I can use for ISA add-ons)

    bring my happy little environment into a client's plant rather than using whatever weird lashup they had. Compared to using a cross compiler on an elderly PDP11 that was hogged by the bean counters it was heaven.

    First products were developed on an '11 "owned" by accounting. So,
    you learned to use a "pocket assembler" (crib sheet you kept folded in
    your wallet). But, the i4004 was such a toy that it wasn't rocket
    science to do this stuff in your head.

    First "development system" was MDS800 which was infinitely better -- and incredibly worse! (cuz now you adopted fancier development methodologies
    and were dependant on the tool chain more) We'd get two turns of the
    crank in an 8 hour shift (by the time you burned a set of EPROMS,
    erased the previous set and reassembled/linked your new image)

    I quickly learned to start designing with SRAM compatibility to
    download code images into RAM (which you could then write-protect with
    a physical switch) to get more iterations per unit time.

    [Now, I PXE boot products so it's a one-button effort!]

    It wasn't until the early/mid 80's that i was regularly using a PC for engineering. And, most of my work at the time was in hardware and
    semi-customs chips.

    I've had the same problem with "gaming" -- esp as I've worked in both
    interpretations of the term (video games and gambling).

    I don't know if they're still in business but there was a video poker company out in Bozeman that I sniffed at but I couldn't work up a lot of interest.

    The appeal of pai gow poker is the learning opportunity it presented.
    Poker is well understood. Ditto black jack, etc. Pai Gow Poker is
    something you have to really think about before developing a strategy
    to codify.

    [Interesting aside: not all "card games" have to obey the rules of
    probability embodied by a regular deck of cards. Local gaming commissions decide how "card images" can be used. E.g., the aces can be equivalent to cherries -- there's no need for there to be exactly four of them with
    a probability of 4:52 of appearing. Players who think in those terms
    can be thusly manipulated]

    I'm *really* (REALLY!) good at finding bugs in people's designs because I
    can easily think of everything that *could* happen instead of just the
    things that SHOULD happen.

    My day will probably be looking at some code that was based on optimism. A crash was reported by one of our ops people training at a new site about 1700 yesterday. I took a brief look and I think it's been a problem for the last 5 years but nobody ever used the 'feature' twice.

    What's that say about your firm's testing strategy? <grin>

    I write specs (increasingly as "manuals") and enumerate all of the "what ifs" before writing any code or designing the host hardware. This sort of top-down approach makes the subsequent efforts pretty straightforward; you KNOW how
    it has to resolve, from the user's perspective (even if the "user" is another service/device).

    It also gives folks a script for designing test suites as they can see the cases that have to be exercised and the results expected.

    The university prides itself on being the only school in the country
    with a mountain on campus --

    We've got the southernmost ski slope! :>

    Mt. Lemmon doesn't count...

    Sure it does! Snow, hill, lift... what more do you need? :>

    I am cautious when walking the neighborhood after dark. It's not
    uncommon to
    encounter coyote, javelina or bobcat. Alarming to find them in your
    (walled)
    backyard! :<

    When I wintered at Why AZ, walking in the dark was interesting. My favorite was
    the sidewinders that would run out of gas after sundown and curl up wherever. Even in the day it was hard to figure out exactly which direction they were headed in.

    I'd left some weevily rice outside that I was going to take to the dump the next day. While reading I heard noises outside and found a herd of javelina helping themselves. I treated it as a photo op and they didn't seem to mind.

    They're practically blind. As long as you aren't threatening (or they with cubs), you're safe.

    But, they're dark as the night so easy to stumble upon and STARTLE if you
    can't *see* them!

    Our front yard is covered with wildflowers (seasonally). They apparently
    like the *flowers* (blossoms) but ignore the rest of the plant. Annoying
    to come out in the morning and find all the blossoms chewed off!

    The park is called Coyote Howls and that isn't overselling. At the end of the season when there weren't many people around I'd be reading and a coyote would
    casually stroll by like a domestic dog.

    We see them in the neighborhood periodically. Have had a few "bedding down" under our citrus trees at night. Again, I want them more scared of me (and high-tailing it out of the yard when I turn on the flood lights -- rather
    than stumble over one!)

    I hear them at night sometimes but they're shyer up here. When I hear the yipping I figure another cat done gone.

    Or dog.

    I grew up essentially surrounded by apple orchards. We would routinely
    go pick our own fruit -- fun as a kid where climbing was more recreation
    than chore. Now, I think I'd rather someone else do the picking!

    Upstate NY was apple country so fall was a great time. There were a lot more cultivars available since everyone hadn't homed in on mass market favorites. My
    favorite for eating were the Northern Spys.

    The equivalent, here, is sampling fruits at the local nurseries. Figs,
    citrus, pomegranates, saguaro, etc. But, I'd much prefer apples.

    It's amusing to see how quickly people want *power* -- but how strenuously >> they avoid WORK and RESPONSIBILITY.

    Power is fun! Taking responsibility is something else.

    I don't mind responsibility -- if given AUTHORITY. The idea of being
    tasked with implementing someone else's "mistakes" just doesn't fly, with me.

    OTOH, I've no problem asserting "THIS is how it's going to be done" -- and
    then making THAT happen!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jun 9 23:36:24 2022
    On 06/09/2022 01:42 PM, Don Y wrote:


    Most of our high (and jrhi) curriculum was preset. E.g., if you were a freshman, you were taking geometry; a senior, calculus. Likewise for "science" (biology, chemistry and physics, in that order -- I forget the freshman science course as I skipped it).

    I'm drawing a blank too.

    [Oddly, I don't recall 4 years of science or math being required. But,
    *do* recall 4 years of english and PE as I had to bring proof that
    I'd taken them at college in order to graduate high school. Silly
    system!]

    English was interesting. One teacher applied her makeup with a trowel.
    Another was semi-senile and half deaf. The crueler students would
    whisper their answers until she cranked her hearing aid up. Finally the creative writing teacher, a young guy, eventually was fired for
    inappropriate relationships with female students and embezzling funds
    from a student club.

    I enjoyed much of the material to which I was exposed in college.
    Not keen on the election of 8 required "humaities" courses to
    graduate -- so, I took things like American History and Amer Literature ("gee, I already know this stuff!")

    I wasn't very interested in being in an engineering school. Like many
    blue collar families the first generation to go to college is expected
    to become engineers. If I'd had my druthers I'd have gone to Columbia. Fortunately that didn't happen. I was 16 in my freshman year and
    becoming a bit wild.


    The new library has a lot of nice toys, scanners, 3D printers, laser
    cutters, and so on but I don't know if they have a brake. The library
    opening was delayed because of the plague and when it finally opened
    masks were required so my exploratory tour was brief. At least so far
    they've dropped the masks. I just heard on the radio that they're now
    required for Federal buildings at Glacier NP.

    Nothing beyond PCs at our libraries. Though color prints are only a dime (which makes it silly to own a color printer!)

    The old one had a minimal make space but they went all out with the new
    one. I would prefer more books rather than some of the fancy areas but
    it's the way libraries go these days. The chief driving force for me to
    vote is if there is a bond or mil levy on the ballot for the library or
    open spaces. The city does well on both counts. They've acquired quite a
    bit of land to head off the developers.



    I had an Otrona back in the day. Eventually a Compaq Portable, then
    Portable
    386 and a Sun Voyager. I still have the latter two (Portable 386 has a 2-slot
    ISA "bag" that I can use for ISA add-ons)

    I don't remember the Otrona, just the Osborne and KayPro. I even bought
    a couple of Osborne Executives the Boston Globe was selling when they
    went to PCs. They worked fine for my purposes since I was targeting
    embedded microcontrollers.

    First "development system" was MDS800 which was infinitely better -- and incredibly worse! (cuz now you adopted fancier development methodologies
    and were dependant on the tool chain more) We'd get two turns of the
    crank in an 8 hour shift (by the time you burned a set of EPROMS,
    erased the previous set and reassembled/linked your new image)

    One company I worked for had a couple of Mostek development systems I
    tried to ignore. That was my day though, put the EPROMs in the cooker,
    make coffee, work on the code until the EPROMs were ready.

    I quickly learned to start designing with SRAM compatibility to
    download code images into RAM (which you could then write-protect with
    a physical switch) to get more iterations per unit time.

    I loved SRAM particularly when designing a board so I didn't have to
    jump through all the DRAM refresh hoops.


    My day will probably be looking at some code that was based on
    optimism. A crash was reported by one of our ops people training at a
    new site about 1700 yesterday. I took a brief look and I think it's
    been a problem for the last 5 years but nobody ever used the 'feature'
    twice.

    What's that say about your firm's testing strategy? <grin>

    With a 25 year tail of technological debt? We have a PM who groans when
    I start with 'Well, in 1997 Andy decided to...' The crash did turn out
    to be two separate areas of code worked on by two different people. It
    was a homegrown Motif date picker that I doubt many people knew about or
    used.

    It also gives folks a script for designing test suites as they can see the cases that have to be exercised and the results expected.

    We're trying to develop some sort of testing automation. Something like Puppeteer looks interesting but I can hear the arguments. Testers can't
    write scripts and programmers are lousy testers.

    Mt. Lemmon doesn't count...

    Sure it does! Snow, hill, lift... what more do you need? :>

    I've never been to the top. Sometimes if I was staying over in Tucson
    I'd drive out Catalina until I found a quite place to car camp in the
    pickup. The last time I had the Yaris and a tent so I went up to
    Catalina SP.



    Our front yard is covered with wildflowers (seasonally). They apparently like the *flowers* (blossoms) but ignore the rest of the plant. Annoying
    to come out in the morning and find all the blossoms chewed off!

    Every year I think about a garden but then I realize it would be a war
    all summer with the deer, skunks, raccoons, and so forth.

    The equivalent, here, is sampling fruits at the local nurseries. Figs, citrus, pomegranates, saguaro, etc. But, I'd much prefer apples.

    Fresh figs are fine. Pomegranates are a lot of work. I prefer them
    squeezed and in a bottle. Every now and then my timing was right to find
    ripe prickly pear tunas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 01:52:39 2022
    On 6/9/2022 10:36 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/09/2022 01:42 PM, Don Y wrote:
    [Oddly, I don't recall 4 years of science or math being required. But,
    *do* recall 4 years of english and PE as I had to bring proof that
    I'd taken them at college in order to graduate high school. Silly
    system!]

    English was interesting. One teacher applied her makeup with a trowel. Another
    was semi-senile and half deaf. The crueler students would whisper their answers
    until she cranked her hearing aid up. Finally the creative writing teacher, a young guy, eventually was fired for inappropriate relationships with female students and embezzling funds from a student club.

    I was not a fan of English, in any variety! I was in the orchestra pit at
    an award ceremony (played an instrument) and heard *my* name called. "For English? What idiot made THAT determination??!" (Math and Science were foregone conclusions but someone must have screwed up with English!)

    I enjoyed much of the material to which I was exposed in college.
    Not keen on the election of 8 required "humaities" courses to
    graduate -- so, I took things like American History and Amer Literature
    ("gee, I already know this stuff!")

    I wasn't very interested in being in an engineering school. Like many blue collar families the first generation to go to college is expected to become engineers. If I'd had my druthers I'd have gone to Columbia. Fortunately that didn't happen. I was 16 in my freshman year and becoming a bit wild.

    I was planning on attending UMinn as I had been doing some research with a professor, there, and they'd already accepted me as a sophomore (skip *two* years!). I was actually putting my registration letter in the mailbox
    when the acceptance letter from MIT arrived. At that point, the decision
    was out of my hands -- any attempt at logical argument fell on deaf ears...

    [It's too cold; it's too far; it's just as expensive as MIT when you
    factor in travel costs (did you think I was going to *commute* from
    here??); etc. Parents can be vain -- esp when they didn't have an education]

    <shrug> OTOH, I *truly* enjoy my career -- but, largely because I've made
    it what *I* want and not left that decision up to employers. I have to
    imagine I would similarly have "adjusted it" if I'd gone into a different field.

    And, I had a sh*tload of fun at school! So, it wasn't all that bad...

    The new library has a lot of nice toys, scanners, 3D printers, laser
    cutters, and so on but I don't know if they have a brake. The library
    opening was delayed because of the plague and when it finally opened
    masks were required so my exploratory tour was brief. At least so far
    they've dropped the masks. I just heard on the radio that they're now
    required for Federal buildings at Glacier NP.

    Nothing beyond PCs at our libraries. Though color prints are only a dime
    (which makes it silly to own a color printer!)

    The old one had a minimal make space but they went all out with the new one. I
    would prefer more books rather than some of the fancy areas but it's the way libraries go these days. The chief driving force for me to vote is if there is
    a bond or mil levy on the ballot for the library or open spaces. The city does
    well on both counts. They've acquired quite a bit of land to head off the developers.

    We have to vote on something nearly every year -- sometimes twice in
    a year. I "do my duty" and make the effort to read up on whatever
    they are proposing.

    But, I *refuse* to sign petitions to PUT things on the ballot! "You
    get the required signatures and I promise I'll study the issue and cast
    a vote when/if it's on the ballot" (but, no, I'm not going to sign
    your petition just because I was unfortunate enough to have been noticed
    as I climbed out of my vehicle...)

    I had an Otrona back in the day. Eventually a Compaq Portable, then
    Portable
    386 and a Sun Voyager. I still have the latter two (Portable 386 has a
    2-slot
    ISA "bag" that I can use for ISA add-ons)

    I don't remember the Otrona, just the Osborne and KayPro. I even bought a couple of Osborne Executives the Boston Globe was selling when they went to PCs. They worked fine for my purposes since I was targeting embedded microcontrollers.

    I had a "Mega Board" on which I could develop Z80 code (a Z80, a few DARTs/SIOs, CTCs and 512KB or DRAM that you could set up as a RAMdisk
    *or* 8 contexts for MP/M) I still have it -- and the 8" floppy drive
    that I used with it. I'd have to tip(1) into it, now, though.

    But, I never got around to putting it in an enclosure... just some ceramic standoffs along the sides.

    First "development system" was MDS800 which was infinitely better -- and
    incredibly worse! (cuz now you adopted fancier development methodologies
    and were dependant on the tool chain more) We'd get two turns of the
    crank in an 8 hour shift (by the time you burned a set of EPROMS,
    erased the previous set and reassembled/linked your new image)

    One company I worked for had a couple of Mostek development systems I tried to
    ignore. That was my day though, put the EPROMs in the cooker, make coffee, work
    on the code until the EPROMs were ready.

    Zilog ZBoxes were the bane of my existence. I actually developed a
    small development system that we manufactured for our own internal
    use. And, managed to convince employer to buying a low-end ICE
    for me to use (previously, all our debugging was done via home-grown multitasking monitors -- very effective but crude)

    I quickly learned to start designing with SRAM compatibility to
    download code images into RAM (which you could then write-protect with
    a physical switch) to get more iterations per unit time.

    I loved SRAM particularly when designing a board so I didn't have to jump through all the DRAM refresh hoops.

    I designed a board with a 16K chunk of address space that mapped onto
    a bank of "?x1" DRAMs. If you stuffed it with eight 16Kb devices, you
    had the basic 16KB of memory. But, you could replace any of the
    devices with 64Kx1 devices and the software would treat the extra 48K bits
    in that bit position as "mass storage" (serializing data into that
    area and deserializing on retrieval).

    Hardware costs were always a concern so recurring dollars had to be
    spent wisely.

    But, I learned to always design the hardware to directly support SRAM
    in place of the EPROM that was commonly used -- to make development
    easier (with our monitors, you could live-patch the code in a
    running system). In the past, I'd make SRAM modules that could plug
    into an EPROM socket and fly-wire to /WR with a test lead. But,
    these were really fragile and the last thing you wanted to be
    doing is troubleshooting your program memory!

    [It was also essential that you remember to write protect the
    SRAM as we often wrote code that wrote to ROM *relying* on the
    fact that the contents wouldn't be altered.]

    My day will probably be looking at some code that was based on
    optimism. A crash was reported by one of our ops people training at a
    new site about 1700 yesterday. I took a brief look and I think it's
    been a problem for the last 5 years but nobody ever used the 'feature'
    twice.

    What's that say about your firm's testing strategy? <grin>

    With a 25 year tail of technological debt? We have a PM who groans when I start
    with 'Well, in 1997 Andy decided to...' The crash did turn out to be two separate areas of code worked on by two different people. It was a homegrown Motif date picker that I doubt many people knew about or used.

    Can you spell "dead code"? Or, easily MADE dead? :>

    It also gives folks a script for designing test suites as they can see the >> cases that have to be exercised and the results expected.

    We're trying to develop some sort of testing automation. Something like Puppeteer looks interesting but I can hear the arguments. Testers can't write scripts and programmers are lousy testers.

    There's no glory in testing. So, the only way to encourage it is to humiliate writers of buggy code! But, this often has a long lag associated.

    Mt. Lemmon doesn't count...

    Sure it does! Snow, hill, lift... what more do you need? :>

    I've never been to the top. Sometimes if I was staying over in Tucson I'd drive
    out Catalina until I found a quite place to car camp in the pickup. The last time I had the Yaris and a tent so I went up to Catalina SP.

    Not much there besides the ski (ahem) "resort". Summer time its a great
    place to escape the heat in the valley. But, there are no conveniences
    up there (gas station, medical care, etc.) so "a nice place to VISIT
    but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!"

    [Many residents have a "summer place" either at Summerhaven or Pinetop.
    I can't see the value in maintaining TWO homes!]

    Our front yard is covered with wildflowers (seasonally). They apparently
    like the *flowers* (blossoms) but ignore the rest of the plant. Annoying
    to come out in the morning and find all the blossoms chewed off!

    Every year I think about a garden but then I realize it would be a war all summer with the deer, skunks, raccoons, and so forth.

    Most recently, the front yard was covered to a depth of ~30 inches in lupines. And, by covered, I mean you couldn't see the soil ANYWHERE!

    Very impressive to look at. But, a colossal PITA to clean up when they
    go to seed (and become eyesores).

    We're now trying to get rid of the poppies and bluebells but there's so
    much seed "stored" in the ground that it will likely be many years for us
    to win that battle! (both varieties have really tiny seeds, producing
    hundreds per plant)

    The equivalent, here, is sampling fruits at the local nurseries. Figs,
    citrus, pomegranates, saguaro, etc. But, I'd much prefer apples.

    Fresh figs are fine.

    Not a fan. Grandpa grew them in N E and put a lot of effort into
    keeping the (1) tree alive, despite the climate. I never understood
    why (as they didn't appeal to me)

    Pomegranates are a lot of work.

    As are pistachios. I think that's part of their appeal.
    OTOH, I quickly meet my fill of pomegranates but will only
    stop eating pistachios when my fingertips scream at me!

    [One year, my folks bought me *48* pounds of Zenobia pistachios.
    Finestkind! I shit red for weeks!]

    I prefer them squeezed and
    in a bottle.

    Yeah, I was in the habit of drinking a short glass of it each morning.
    Costco sells it. But, it's a rude thing to do to your mouth right
    out of bed! (my attitude towards most juices -- save the sanguinello)

    Every now and then my timing was right to find ripe prickly pear
    tunas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jun 10 18:02:33 2022
    On 06/10/2022 02:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 10:36 PM, rbowman wrote:

    I was planning on attending UMinn as I had been doing some research with a professor, there, and they'd already accepted me as a sophomore (skip *two* years!). I was actually putting my registration letter in the mailbox
    when the acceptance letter from MIT arrived. At that point, the decision
    was out of my hands -- any attempt at logical argument fell on deaf ears...

    [It's too cold; it's too far; it's just as expensive as MIT when you
    factor in travel costs (did you think I was going to *commute* from
    here??); etc. Parents can be vain -- esp when they didn't have an
    education]

    RPI was a done deal but I visited Clarkson University. My father and I
    drove up during the Christmas break and the last pavement was seen
    somewhere around Lake George. The freshmen dorms were over a mile from
    the campus and a dog sled would have come in handy. No thanks.

    The guidance counselor was a Dartmouth alum and was pushing that but I
    wasn't interested. In retrospect it might have been the better choice. I
    would have learned BASIC rather than FORTRAN IV. Dartmouth was ahead of
    the game. RPI considered the 360 as a glorified slide rule that you
    might use someday rather than an end in itself.


    <shrug> OTOH, I *truly* enjoy my career -- but, largely because I've made
    it what *I* want and not left that decision up to employers. I have to imagine I would similarly have "adjusted it" if I'd gone into a different field.

    And, I had a sh*tload of fun at school! So, it wasn't all that bad...

    The most worthwhile part was four semesters of Resnick and Halliday. A
    good grounding in physics takes you a long way. I also picked up quite a
    bit of experimental psychology -- neurophysiology and Skinner
    behaviorism, not the 'how does that make you feel?' crap. The rats
    wouldn't have answered anyway. 20 years later I would have gotten into cognitive science. I played with neural networks in the '80s but
    ultimately went in a different direction.


    We have to vote on something nearly every year -- sometimes twice in
    a year. I "do my duty" and make the effort to read up on whatever
    they are proposing.

    But, I *refuse* to sign petitions to PUT things on the ballot! "You
    get the required signatures and I promise I'll study the issue and cast
    a vote when/if it's on the ballot" (but, no, I'm not going to sign
    your petition just because I was unfortunate enough to have been noticed
    as I climbed out of my vehicle...)

    School levies come up about every six months and usually get shot down.
    Wait another six months and try again. Sooner or later... The problem
    is the voters are interested enough to ask exactly what they plan to do
    with the money and the answer seldom has anything to do with improving
    the classroom experience.



    Zilog ZBoxes were the bane of my existence. I actually developed a
    small development system that we manufactured for our own internal
    use. And, managed to convince employer to buying a low-end ICE
    for me to use (previously, all our debugging was done via home-grown multitasking monitors -- very effective but crude)

    My warped sense of humor got me into trouble. The company was Orion
    Research and a completely unrelated company named Orion made a 8048 ICE
    that I saw in a magazine. At a meeting I made a quip about with a name
    like that it must be good and they bought it. Interesting thing with a
    FORTH interface but not exactly ready for prime time. iirc ZAX made one
    that worked.


    [It was also essential that you remember to write protect the
    SRAM as we often wrote code that wrote to ROM *relying* on the
    fact that the contents wouldn't be altered.]

    /dev/nul ... AIX had a good sense of humor about trying to read or
    write 0x0000. Porting the code to Linux, which was completely humorless,
    was interesting.


    Can you spell "dead code"? Or, easily MADE dead? :>

    Some of it isn't as dead as you might think.

    There's no glory in testing. So, the only way to encourage it is to humiliate
    writers of buggy code! But, this often has a long lag associated.

    Too long... One programmer received his share of humiliation but he left
    about a year ago. Now everything is his fault. To be fair he made design decisions based on an ill-defined and moving target.

    Like most projects when I mentioned we'd all learned quite a bit and it
    was time to start fresh using our collective experience I was treated as
    a leper for a while.

    Not much there besides the ski (ahem) "resort". Summer time its a great place to escape the heat in the valley. But, there are no conveniences
    up there (gas station, medical care, etc.) so "a nice place to VISIT
    but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!"

    No, if you want a little cooler locale going to Flag makes more sense.

    Most recently, the front yard was covered to a depth of ~30 inches in lupines.
    And, by covered, I mean you couldn't see the soil ANYWHERE!

    This morning I noticed a mushroom growing in the lawn I'd mowed a couple
    of days ago. Not a good sign. June typically is high water for the river
    and the report is rain all weekend.

    As are pistachios. I think that's part of their appeal.
    OTOH, I quickly meet my fill of pomegranates but will only
    stop eating pistachios when my fingertips scream at me!

    [One year, my folks bought me *48* pounds of Zenobia pistachios.
    Finestkind! I shit red for weeks!]

    https://www.thespruceeats.com/red-pistachios-overview-1807049

    I wondered whatever happened to red pistachios. I haven't had any in the
    shell for a long time but I recall taking several passes at the low
    hanging fruit until all that were left were closed up as tight as a clam
    at low tide.

    Sunflower seeds are another thing I never mastered. They grow a lot of sunflowers around Jamestown ND and they're not all for export. I went to
    the races there and everybody in the bleachers had bags full. They
    looked like squirrels and the area around their feet looked like one of
    those stumps where a squirrel has sat shelling pine cones.

    The most creative way to handle tedious tasks was explained to me by a
    Navajo. Packrats love pinion nuts and will shell the cones and cache the
    nuts. So you find the rats cache and steal the nuts, making sure to
    leave enough corn for a fair trade. No wonder why the rats decorate
    their nests with cholla joints. I'd love to see one in the act of
    gathering the joints.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Jun 10 21:13:32 2022
    On 6/10/2022 5:02 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 02:52 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 6/9/2022 10:36 PM, rbowman wrote:

    I was planning on attending UMinn as I had been doing some research with a >> professor, there, and they'd already accepted me as a sophomore (skip *two* >> years!). I was actually putting my registration letter in the mailbox
    when the acceptance letter from MIT arrived. At that point, the decision
    was out of my hands -- any attempt at logical argument fell on deaf ears... >>
    [It's too cold; it's too far; it's just as expensive as MIT when you
    factor in travel costs (did you think I was going to *commute* from
    here??); etc. Parents can be vain -- esp when they didn't have an
    education]

    RPI was a done deal but I visited Clarkson University. My father and I drove up
    during the Christmas break and the last pavement was seen somewhere around Lake
    George. The freshmen dorms were over a mile from the campus and a dog sled would have come in handy. No thanks.

    My dorm was literally across the street from the main (practical) entrance
    to the building complex (almost all of the buildings are interconnected so
    you can get to any of them without ever going outside -- save some of
    the outliers like the magnet lab)

    We used to stand on the roof and throw snowballs at cars who ran the
    light (no intersection there... just an extremely WIDE crosswalk that
    was NYC-busy with students crossing into the complex)

    The guidance counselor was a Dartmouth alum and was pushing that but I wasn't interested. In retrospect it might have been the better choice. I would have learned BASIC rather than FORTRAN IV. Dartmouth was ahead of the game. RPI considered the 360 as a glorified slide rule that you might use someday rather
    than an end in itself.

    My first exposure to machines was with an ASR-33 and 103 modem at
    the previously mentioned science center. Interpreted BASIC on a Nova
    (located in a movie theater at the base of the mountain... no idea why
    the theater owner thought it good business to timeshare a minicomputer!)

    Night classes was FORTRAN, flowchart template, punched cards, etc.
    Somehow, that didn't seem unusual -- despite the prior/continuing
    interactive use at the science center. As the machine was
    right there, I guess I rationalized it as being bigger and, thus,
    requiring that sort of usage.

    <shrug> OTOH, I *truly* enjoy my career -- but, largely because I've made >> it what *I* want and not left that decision up to employers. I have to
    imagine I would similarly have "adjusted it" if I'd gone into a different
    field.

    And, I had a sh*tload of fun at school! So, it wasn't all that bad...

    The most worthwhile part was four semesters of Resnick and Halliday.

    Ha! I knew it as Halliday and Resnick. Took me a moment to make
    the connection.

    But, I wasn't fond of physics as it seemed like a digression from
    my primary courseware. One of those courses you had to take to
    "round out" your education (instead of being directly pertinent)

    A good
    grounding in physics takes you a long way. I also picked up quite a bit of experimental psychology -- neurophysiology and Skinner behaviorism, not the 'how does that make you feel?' crap. The rats wouldn't have answered anyway. 20 years later I would have gotten into cognitive science. I played with neural
    networks in the '80s but ultimately went in a different direction.

    I never had any of the "liberal arts" type courses. We were required
    to take 8 or 9 (?) elective courses (round out, etc.) but opted for
    things like material science, american history, etc. I treated those
    as sort of check-off requirements -- like PE in high school.

    We have to vote on something nearly every year -- sometimes twice in
    a year. I "do my duty" and make the effort to read up on whatever
    they are proposing.

    But, I *refuse* to sign petitions to PUT things on the ballot! "You
    get the required signatures and I promise I'll study the issue and cast
    a vote when/if it's on the ballot" (but, no, I'm not going to sign
    your petition just because I was unfortunate enough to have been noticed
    as I climbed out of my vehicle...)

    School levies come up about every six months and usually get shot down. Wait another six months and try again. Sooner or later... The problem is the voters
    are interested enough to ask exactly what they plan to do with the money and the answer seldom has anything to do with improving the classroom experience.

    Here, the trick is to identify which "temporary sales tax increase" is about to expire and then try to convince the voters to repurpose it (for the next 10 years) on something else -- as it "won't raise taxes". So, lots of things
    that would never pass if they required that same *increase* in sales tax
    squeak through.

    There is also a deliberate effort to find times to put it on the ballot
    when folks aren't motivated to vote (e.g., off years)

    Zilog ZBoxes were the bane of my existence. I actually developed a
    small development system that we manufactured for our own internal
    use. And, managed to convince employer to buying a low-end ICE
    for me to use (previously, all our debugging was done via home-grown
    multitasking monitors -- very effective but crude)

    My warped sense of humor got me into trouble. The company was Orion Research and a completely unrelated company named Orion made a 8048 ICE that I saw in a
    magazine. At a meeting I made a quip about with a name like that it must be good and they bought it. Interesting thing with a FORTH interface but not exactly ready for prime time. iirc ZAX made one that worked.

    ZRDOS was actually a well thought out OS, given the sort of boxes it
    was deployed on (desktop processing). But, the hardware was incredibly frugal (hard sectored 8" floppies... I think the floppy disk controller was little more than a shit register attached to the read/write head)

    By contrast, the box I designed was considerably faster and a small fraction
    of the ZBOX's size. And, of course, cheaper.

    OTOH, we had to do a fare bit of massaging of our sources as assemblers
    are notoriously not portable.

    There's no glory in testing. So, the only way to encourage it is to
    humiliate
    writers of buggy code! But, this often has a long lag associated.

    Too long... One programmer received his share of humiliation but he left about
    a year ago. Now everything is his fault. To be fair he made design decisions based on an ill-defined and moving target.

    We had a guy who regularly RE-bugged the math library. Jeez, what's your
    goal, here? A 0.3% increase in performance? Rearrange some of the conditional jumps so the default action was a few T-states faster??

    People really can get micro-focused on stuff that doesn't matter.

    At the other end of the specturm, I saw a guy use an 8Kx8 EPROM as a logic array -- that could be replaced with a NAND *gate* and an inverter (another NAND gate). Really? You want to put all of that cost AND LABOR into
    the product, just because you didn't want to think about the function
    BEFORE you laid out the board?? <rolls eyes>

    Like most projects when I mentioned we'd all learned quite a bit and it was time to start fresh using our collective experience I was treated as a leper for a while.

    One place I worked treated software "modules" as components -- and assigned part numbers to each. The thinking being that a good portion of each new design could quickly be built from previously written AND DEBUGGED "components".

    But, the idea never went far enough cuz there was always application
    specific code (that had no part number to be called up). And, invariably,
    the "premade" modules had to be tweaked in some way (cuz we were
    really sensitive to cost, size and performance)

    [I blush when I think of how many machine cycles I now throw away without blinking an eye!]

    Not much there besides the ski (ahem) "resort". Summer time its a great
    place to escape the heat in the valley. But, there are no conveniences
    up there (gas station, medical care, etc.) so "a nice place to VISIT
    but you wouldn't want to LIVE there!"

    No, if you want a little cooler locale going to Flag makes more sense.

    Too far. Even Summerhaven is an ~hour trip up the mountain.

    Most recently, the front yard was covered to a depth of ~30 inches in
    lupines.
    And, by covered, I mean you couldn't see the soil ANYWHERE!

    This morning I noticed a mushroom growing in the lawn I'd mowed a couple of days ago. Not a good sign. June typically is high water for the river and the report is rain all weekend.

    First spattering of rain, tonight. I suspected we'd see it, today, as we topped 110F and that much energy in the atmosphere has to go somewhere!

    Of course, now it's just humid, afterwards. But, nightfall keeps it
    from being steamy.

    As are pistachios. I think that's part of their appeal.
    OTOH, I quickly meet my fill of pomegranates but will only
    stop eating pistachios when my fingertips scream at me!

    [One year, my folks bought me *48* pounds of Zenobia pistachios.
    Finestkind! I shit red for weeks!]

    https://www.thespruceeats.com/red-pistachios-overview-1807049

    I wondered whatever happened to red pistachios. I haven't had any in the shell
    for a long time but I recall taking several passes at the low hanging fruit until all that were left were closed up as tight as a clam at low tide.

    No longer red but I suspect still just as good as past experiences:

    <https://www.myspicesage.com/collections/zenobia-nuts/products/zenobia-turkish-pistachios-5-pound-bags-1>

    Sunflower seeds are another thing I never mastered. They grow a lot of sunflowers around Jamestown ND and they're not all for export. I went to the races there and everybody in the bleachers had bags full. They looked like squirrels and the area around their feet looked like one of those stumps where
    a squirrel has sat shelling pine cones.

    Yeah, I never liked those nutmeats. I'll do pistachios, cashews and peanuts. Almonds and pecans in baked goods or ice cream.

    Walnuts? ick. Hazelnuts? double ick. Macademia? <frown>

    [I use a lot of sliced almonds in SWMBO's biscotti. And, a fair bit of
    walnuts in homemade "walnut bark". Brownies without walnuts just don't
    taste correct -- despite my dislike for them]

    OTOH, Italian chestnuts don't seem to register as "nuts", for me, and I'll gladly take my fill of them (which is easy as they are so big and *rich*)

    The most creative way to handle tedious tasks was explained to me by a Navajo.
    Packrats love pinion nuts and will shell the cones and cache the nuts. So you find the rats cache and steal the nuts, making sure to leave enough corn for a
    fair trade. No wonder why the rats decorate their nests with cholla joints. I'd
    love to see one in the act of gathering the joints.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 11 00:51:32 2022
    On 06/10/2022 10:13 PM, Don Y wrote:

    The most worthwhile part was four semesters of Resnick and Halliday.

    Ha! I knew it as Halliday and Resnick. Took me a moment to make
    the connection.

    I think they switched the order when it became 'Fundamentals of
    Physics'. It was a two volume set just titled 'Physics'. Robert Resnick
    was a professor at RPI so he got to come first.


    Here, the trick is to identify which "temporary sales tax increase" is
    about to
    expire and then try to convince the voters to repurpose it (for the next 10 years) on something else -- as it "won't raise taxes". So, lots of things that would never pass if they required that same *increase* in sales tax squeak through.

    Montana does not have a general sales tax. One recent ballot had two
    marijuana excise tax questions. Medical marijuana has a 4% excise tax
    and recreational is 20%.

    We had a guy who regularly RE-bugged the math library. Jeez, what's your goal, here? A 0.3% increase in performance? Rearrange some of the conditional
    jumps so the default action was a few T-states faster??

    People really can get micro-focused on stuff that doesn't matter.

    My pet peeve is people who write complex code to handle any foreseeable
    future requirements. That would be well and good but in many cases the potential future uses never happened in the last 20 years.

    One place I worked treated software "modules" as components -- and assigned part numbers to each. The thinking being that a good portion of each new design could quickly be built from previously written AND DEBUGGED "components".

    But, the idea never went far enough cuz there was always application
    specific code (that had no part number to be called up). And, invariably, the "premade" modules had to be tweaked in some way (cuz we were
    really sensitive to cost, size and performance)

    We have a rather important object id that was originally a short to save
    all those bits. Going to an unsigned short bought a little more time.
    Like the 32-bit time_t everyone is studiously ignoring bumping the size
    means pain as all the structs change. Hey, it was a good idea in 1997...


    [I blush when I think of how many machine cycles I now throw away without blinking an eye!]


    First spattering of rain, tonight. I suspected we'd see it, today, as we topped 110F and that much energy in the atmosphere has to go somewhere!

    I think we may almost make it to 70 tomorrow. 110 is a bit much even if
    it is a dry heat.

    OTOH, Italian chestnuts don't seem to register as "nuts", for me, and I'll gladly take my fill of them (which is easy as they are so big and *rich*)

    Speaking about work, peeling chestnuts is right up there. I have fond
    memories of NYC street vendors selling chestnuts they roasted over
    repurposed 55 gallon drums. Somehow the ones I cook are never as good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jun 11 01:15:38 2022
    On 6/10/2022 11:51 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/10/2022 10:13 PM, Don Y wrote:

    Here, the trick is to identify which "temporary sales tax increase" is
    about to
    expire and then try to convince the voters to repurpose it (for the next 10 >> years) on something else -- as it "won't raise taxes". So, lots of things >> that would never pass if they required that same *increase* in sales tax
    squeak through.

    Montana does not have a general sales tax. One recent ballot had two marijuana
    excise tax questions. Medical marijuana has a 4% excise tax and recreational is
    20%.

    We have a state sales tax, county sales tax and city sales tax. I think
    these total to something over 8% (if you are in the city+county+state).
    It adds up.

    E.g., we went looking at a chair, today. If we buy it at the store that
    we visited (nearby), it will cost $100 more (due to the addition of the
    2.5% city sales tax) than if we buy it at another branch of the same
    store located just outside the city limits. Buy a car, and that $100
    becomes $1000.

    Of course, the item purchased isn't any different -- just WHERE it was purchased.

    We had a guy who regularly RE-bugged the math library. Jeez, what's your
    goal, here? A 0.3% increase in performance? Rearrange some of the
    conditional
    jumps so the default action was a few T-states faster??

    People really can get micro-focused on stuff that doesn't matter.

    My pet peeve is people who write complex code to handle any foreseeable future
    requirements. That would be well and good but in many cases the potential future uses never happened in the last 20 years.

    When I designed my latest RTOS, I looked at a variety of other (microkernel) designs -- many of them from academia. It was obvious that most were
    "camels" (designed by committee) and lacked a cohesive strategy. As if
    they were collections of exceptions and not clean from the ground up.

    I was most heavily influenced by Mach but it was completely bloated.
    Function calls to do all sorts of things that seemed to be afterthoughts;
    as if they were trying to fit a particular application (e.g., hosting
    a UN*X) and kept finding blemishes in their original implementation
    that needed to be patched. IPC/RPC had argument lists that made native
    X APIs look simple!

    At the other extreme, you had offerings that tried to do as little as possible (e.g., L4) and fit their solution to specific platforms (yeah, that's always a winning strategy -- NOT!). So, to make them useful, you ended up having to build additional layers atop their primitives. (And you know there will be folks who will want to short-circuit those layers and BREAK the stuff on top)

    So, figure out what you *really* want and how to cleanly implement it
    so you don't end up with these bloated kludges that require lots of
    man pages for a developer to sort out what he wants to do and how the API expects him to do it.

    One place I worked treated software "modules" as components -- and assigned >> part numbers to each. The thinking being that a good portion of each new
    design could quickly be built from previously written AND DEBUGGED
    "components".

    But, the idea never went far enough cuz there was always application
    specific code (that had no part number to be called up). And, invariably, >> the "premade" modules had to be tweaked in some way (cuz we were
    really sensitive to cost, size and performance)

    We have a rather important object id that was originally a short to save all those bits. Going to an unsigned short bought a little more time. Like the 32-bit time_t everyone is studiously ignoring bumping the size means pain as all the structs change. Hey, it was a good idea in 1997...

    I have a relational database that tracks ALL of the files that I have,
    on all of the media (spinning rust, optical, etc.). It's a simple
    schema:
    ID bigserial
    Name text
    ContainerID big
    I.e., an ID for every file, "folder" and volume. (additionally, all "archive" file formats are treated as volumes -- so each file/folder/archive! within an archive also gets an ID)

    No question -- use "bigs" (longs).

    OTOH, I store hashes of each *file* in a RELATE-d table. Using a GUID data type is considerably more economical than trying to create a 16byte data type (due to alignment issues in the DBMS). If you're going to be storing billions of file handles, then an extra 8 bytes per handle adds up really quick!

    [I blush when I think of how many machine cycles I now throw away without
    blinking an eye!]

    First spattering of rain, tonight. I suspected we'd see it, today, as we
    topped 110F and that much energy in the atmosphere has to go somewhere!

    I think we may almost make it to 70 tomorrow. 110 is a bit much even if it is a
    dry heat.

    When folks make that comment, I reply:
    "Tell that to the turkey on Thanksgiving!"

    This is the worst time as humidity is climbing as heat is peaking.
    Worst THI possible. Once monsoon sets in, the rains should lower
    the temperature.

    OTOH, Italian chestnuts don't seem to register as "nuts", for me, and I'll >> gladly take my fill of them (which is easy as they are so big and *rich*)

    Speaking about work, peeling chestnuts is right up there. I have fond memories
    of NYC street vendors selling chestnuts they roasted over repurposed 55 gallon
    drums. Somehow the ones I cook are never as good.

    It's a matter of luck. I cut a cross (+) in each before firing.
    Then, try to peel back those (now flared) corners around the incisions. Sometimes the meat just falls out, nice and clean. Other times, the shell sticks and has to be chipped away. Or, worse, that inner "furry skin"
    clings to the meat and has to be scraped off.

    But, as with pistachios (some of which open easily), part of the appeal
    is the effort invested in eating them. Shelled chestnuts (or pistachios)
    would be boring. While peanuts in the shell are similarly fun to eat,
    shelled peanuts don't take away from that experience!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 11 12:22:03 2022
    On 06/11/2022 02:15 AM, Don Y wrote:

    We have a state sales tax, county sales tax and city sales tax. I think these total to something over 8% (if you are in the city+county+state).
    It adds up.

    E.g., we went looking at a chair, today. If we buy it at the store that
    we visited (nearby), it will cost $100 more (due to the addition of the
    2.5% city sales tax) than if we buy it at another branch of the same
    store located just outside the city limits. Buy a car, and that $100
    becomes $1000.

    30 years ago except for the basics a trip to Spokane was required. Most
    stores like REI wouldn't charge the sales tax if you produced a MT
    license. Now we have the full selection of big box stores -- and ID and
    WA license plates in the parking lots.

    It's a 400 mile round trip on I90 but if you're shopping for $3000 refrigerators or similar items it can be a profitable day trip. Or at
    least it was. Feeding $5 gas to the F150 SuperCrew can persuade you to
    shop locally.

    Whispering 'sales tax' is political death although the marijuana excise
    tax didn't have a problem passing. That says something about the
    demographic. The majority of the voters were fine with legalizing
    marijuana and equally fine with the stoners kicking into the state
    coffers. Only fair since there is an excise tax on beer and wine. The
    state runs the liquor stores so there isn't a direct excise tax just the markup.


    I was most heavily influenced by Mach but it was completely bloated.
    Function calls to do all sorts of things that seemed to be afterthoughts;
    as if they were trying to fit a particular application (e.g., hosting
    a UN*X) and kept finding blemishes in their original implementation
    that needed to be patched. IPC/RPC had argument lists that made native
    X APIs look simple!

    At the other extreme, you had offerings that tried to do as little as possible
    (e.g., L4) and fit their solution to specific platforms (yeah, that's
    always a
    winning strategy -- NOT!). So, to make them useful, you ended up having to build additional layers atop their primitives. (And you know there will be folks who will want to short-circuit those layers and BREAK the stuff on
    top)

    Liedtke might have gotten a little carried away when he took an ax to
    Mach. I remember some of the commercial 8051 RTOS offerings. 'Er, did
    you leave me any memory to use?'

    OTOH, I store hashes of each *file* in a RELATE-d table. Using a GUID data type is considerably more economical than trying to create a 16byte data
    type
    (due to alignment issues in the DBMS). If you're going to be storing billions
    of file handles, then an extra 8 bytes per handle adds up really quick!

    We have one programmer who is in love with hashes. He uses hashes
    extensively to prevent the same data from being sent again. Very
    efficient except when you want to send the same data.

    This is the worst time as humidity is climbing as heat is peaking.
    Worst THI possible. Once monsoon sets in, the rains should lower
    the temperature.

    If... There's that delicate balance between the gulf and the Pacific
    that determines if and when.

    I spent one winter, '96 I think, when the balance worked out so it
    rained most of November and December. At one point the washes were
    running so high I could neither go up to Ajo on 85 or get very far on
    86. No big deal for me. However there were people living out Tanque
    Verde that couldn't go home because of those cute little places where
    the wash that is never supposed to actually have water in it runs over
    the road. That's the year when people learned what 'rio' and 'hundred
    year flood plain' meant.

    Spring was gorgeous. Even the seldom seen wild garlic Ajo is named for
    bloomed.


    It's a matter of luck. I cut a cross (+) in each before firing.
    Then, try to peel back those (now flared) corners around the incisions. Sometimes the meat just falls out, nice and clean. Other times, the shell sticks and has to be chipped away. Or, worse, that inner "furry skin"
    clings to the meat and has to be scraped off.

    I get a high proportion of fur or even worse a meat that looks like
    roquefort cheese. Some batches are excellent but I've never found a way
    to assess the quality. Still, they're worth the hassle.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jun 11 13:26:00 2022
    On 6/11/2022 11:22 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/11/2022 02:15 AM, Don Y wrote:

    We have a state sales tax, county sales tax and city sales tax. I think
    these total to something over 8% (if you are in the city+county+state).
    It adds up.

    E.g., we went looking at a chair, today. If we buy it at the store that
    we visited (nearby), it will cost $100 more (due to the addition of the
    2.5% city sales tax) than if we buy it at another branch of the same
    store located just outside the city limits. Buy a car, and that $100
    becomes $1000.

    30 years ago except for the basics a trip to Spokane was required.

    Ouch! I gripe when I have to drive across town to buy oriental
    food supplies.

    Most stores
    like REI wouldn't charge the sales tax if you produced a MT license. Now we have the full selection of big box stores -- and ID and WA license plates in the parking lots.

    I would buy on my business (resale) license. But, that meant more record-keeping in case I ended up consuming the articles. And,
    periodic "Transaction Privilege Tax" filings. (though you only
    had to file with state/county so could save a few points on the city!)

    It's a 400 mile round trip on I90 but if you're shopping for $3000 refrigerators or similar items it can be a profitable day trip. Or at least it
    was. Feeding $5 gas to the F150 SuperCrew can persuade you to shop locally.

    Stores located just outside the city limits tout the 2.5% savings.
    Particularly effective for car dealers (though I suspect they just
    fold that into the price, elsewhere).

    Whispering 'sales tax' is political death although the marijuana excise tax didn't have a problem passing. That says something about the demographic. The majority of the voters were fine with legalizing marijuana and equally fine with the stoners kicking into the state coffers. Only fair since there is an excise tax on beer and wine. The state runs the liquor stores so there isn't a
    direct excise tax just the markup.

    They tried to pass a $1B bond issue for roads. Failed (despite the roads needing repair). OTOH, let's reappropriate 0.5% sales tax revenue -- for
    the next decade -- and it passes. Tells you how much clout homeowners
    have in avoiding property tax increases! (let the renters and winter
    visitors foot the bill for the roads!)

    I was most heavily influenced by Mach but it was completely bloated.
    Function calls to do all sorts of things that seemed to be afterthoughts;
    as if they were trying to fit a particular application (e.g., hosting
    a UN*X) and kept finding blemishes in their original implementation
    that needed to be patched. IPC/RPC had argument lists that made native
    X APIs look simple!

    At the other extreme, you had offerings that tried to do as little as
    possible
    (e.g., L4) and fit their solution to specific platforms (yeah, that's
    always a
    winning strategy -- NOT!). So, to make them useful, you ended up having to >> build additional layers atop their primitives. (And you know there will be >> folks who will want to short-circuit those layers and BREAK the stuff on
    top)

    Liedtke might have gotten a little carried away when he took an ax to Mach. I remember some of the commercial 8051 RTOS offerings. 'Er, did you leave me any
    memory to use?'

    Yup. OTOH, if you rolled your own -- with YOUR criteria in mind -- you
    can get performance and economy (if you are willing to embrace certain tradeoffs)

    It's just silly to bang your head against the wall to save a few pennies, nowadays -- esp when those savings likely come with added complexity ("trickiness") that brings along latent bugs.

    E.g., my current project relies on nodes communicating over ethernet.
    So, there's a support level required in the hardware for the NIC,
    connectors, PoE conditioning, *wiring* (labor!), etc. Once you've
    put that in the budget, the differences between a dog of a processor and something "plusher" tend to fall away.

    Likewise, Liedtke's complaints about IPC "times" is silly, in the
    absolute -- Mach *today* would perform with times better than L4 *then*
    (of course, L4 *now* would also perform better but if N usec was
    "intolerable" back then, it's clearly not the case, now!)

    And, Liedtke's design required hand tweeking each implementation
    based on the targeted processor. Yeah, that's a fun thing to do...
    folks AVOID using ASM for a reason!

    Finally, Liedtke required you (me) to add layers atop his "bare bones,
    nothing more than IPC" (what about RPC? resource accounting?
    capabilities? timing services? deadline handling? etc.) so what
    value to his "solution"? (why not skip it completely and just
    do everything on bare iron?)

    I took the opposite approach; imagine what HARDWARE features you
    would want in a processor and emulate them in software (because
    designing BIG processors is complicated and costly and obsolete
    in a year or two!).

    Once you have gobs of "surplus" horsepower, you can come up with more interesting solutions to problems! E.g., my "garage door controller"
    uses cameras to determine if anything is in the path of the door's
    closure -- not just an "electric eye" that only looks at one point in
    the door's travel. And, if anything is located in the path of the
    door's *opening* (e.g., if I've left a ladder up so I can work on the
    GDO and SWMBO happens to pull into the driveway while I'm not in the
    garage to inhibit the opening). And, anything located on the *floor*
    in the path of the incoming vehicle that could be damaged or could damage
    the vehicle.

    You can design an enable/inhibit implementation with an MC14500 (!)...
    but, trying to process live video in real time would take a metric
    buttload of them!

    [And, when there is no activity in the garage, you'd have all of that
    surplus computing power just sitting idle -- wouldn't it be nice to be
    able to EASILY use it for some other task ALREADY RUNNING ELSEWHERE?]

    OTOH, I store hashes of each *file* in a RELATE-d table. Using a GUID data >> type is considerably more economical than trying to create a 16byte data
    type
    (due to alignment issues in the DBMS). If you're going to be storing
    billions
    of file handles, then an extra 8 bytes per handle adds up really quick!

    We have one programmer who is in love with hashes. He uses hashes extensively to prevent the same data from being sent again. Very efficient except when you
    want to send the same data.

    In my case, it's a win for verifying a file's integrity (I have a daemon that periodically reads every file's contents and compares to stored hash to
    verify it is (1) accessible and (2) intact) as well as locating duplicate copies of a file (that may have been corrupted). E.g., taxes/federal/2021
    and personal/taxes/federal21 can be the exact same file -- potentially on different volumes -- without you being consciously aware of that! Until
    one gets lost (accidental erasure, volume failure) or corrupted.

    This is the worst time as humidity is climbing as heat is peaking.
    Worst THI possible. Once monsoon sets in, the rains should lower
    the temperature.

    If... There's that delicate balance between the gulf and the Pacific that determines if and when.

    I used to plan on July 4 as the practical start of Monsoon. In the past,
    there was some obscure criteria (the FIRST of three consecutive days with DP above 50?) which was *practically* useless (you don't know Monsoon has
    started UNTIL the third day??). Now, they've determined a fixed range of dates, regardless of dewpoint (imagine defining Vernal Equinox based on "observed conditions")

    I spent one winter, '96 I think, when the balance worked out so it rained most
    of November and December. At one point the washes were running so high I could
    neither go up to Ajo on 85 or get very far on 86. No big deal for me. However there were people living out Tanque Verde that couldn't go home because of those cute little places where the wash that is never supposed to actually have
    water in it runs over the road. That's the year when people learned what 'rio'
    and 'hundred year flood plain' meant.

    Yeah, we purchased flood insurance one year, back then. The 100 year
    flood plain comes JUST to the property line (we're about 200 yards from
    TV wash)

    Road flooding is pretty commonplace, even in "normal" rainfall.
    And, the inevitable "dumb motorist" rescue when some idiot thought
    6 inches of water was easy to traverse.

    Spring was gorgeous. Even the seldom seen wild garlic Ajo is named for bloomed.

    It's a matter of luck. I cut a cross (+) in each before firing.
    Then, try to peel back those (now flared) corners around the incisions.
    Sometimes the meat just falls out, nice and clean. Other times, the shell >> sticks and has to be chipped away. Or, worse, that inner "furry skin"
    clings to the meat and has to be scraped off.

    I get a high proportion of fur or even worse a meat that looks like roquefort cheese. Some batches are excellent but I've never found a way to assess the quality. Still, they're worth the hassle.

    Yeah, "pot luck". You don't know until you actually are "invested" in it.

    I used to drink a beer (/Augustiner Brau/) that was like that. Some bottles would be smooth as milk shakes. Others would have a "bite" to them. Of course, you'd drink even the "bad" ones and then roll the dice, again,
    hoping for a *good* one. This could quickly become a self-limiting process!

    <grin>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 11 16:51:37 2022
    On 06/11/2022 02:26 PM, Don Y wrote:

    30 years ago except for the basics a trip to Spokane was required.

    Ouch! I gripe when I have to drive across town to buy oriental
    food supplies.

    Spokane does have a Asian market with real fish sauce, not that brown,
    salty stuff you can get anywhere. The clerk tried to steer me away from
    it, pointing me to the brown juice.

    One place in town used to carry it but the owner went back to Thailand
    so the pickings are slim.

    When I went to Tucson I had my usual route down pat. The Co-op
    Warehouse, North 4th for laughs, Bookman's on Speedway, and then to an
    Asian market. iirc it was in a mini-mall at Grant and Stone. Ajo had
    stores for day to day essentials but when the list got too long I'd make
    a Tucson run, or sometimes Phoenix or Casa Grande. Casa was the closest
    but was limited.

    Yup. OTOH, if you rolled your own -- with YOUR criteria in mind -- you
    can get performance and economy (if you are willing to embrace certain tradeoffs)

    I did that, with a basic round robin scheduler. The trick was making
    sure each task played nice. As you say, a very specific target device
    with no attempt for a general purpose solution.

    It's just silly to bang your head against the wall to save a few pennies, nowadays -- esp when those savings likely come with added complexity ("trickiness") that brings along latent bugs.

    I miss the MCS-48 and similar uc's. It was like playing chess with every
    byte taken into account. When I interviewed for my present job one of
    the questions started with 'assume unlimited memory' and I thought 'Oh, hell...'.

    E.g., my current project relies on nodes communicating over ethernet.
    So, there's a support level required in the hardware for the NIC,
    connectors, PoE conditioning, *wiring* (labor!), etc. Once you've
    put that in the budget, the differences between a dog of a processor and something "plusher" tend to fall away.

    Network traffic has been a problem for us. It's gotten a lot better but
    in the past sites with iffy networks would complain 'your software is
    too slow' and we would answer 'your network is a pos'. Not exactly a
    productive discussion. However VM's have also gotten more prevalent.
    Sure, you can spin up 5 VMs on that server; now about that one NIC...

    [And, when there is no activity in the garage, you'd have all of that
    surplus computing power just sitting idle -- wouldn't it be nice to be
    able to EASILY use it for some other task ALREADY RUNNING ELSEWHERE?]

    Go bitcoin mining :)

    I used to drink a beer (/Augustiner Brau/) that was like that. Some
    bottles
    would be smooth as milk shakes. Others would have a "bite" to them. Of course, you'd drink even the "bad" ones and then roll the dice, again,
    hoping for a *good* one. This could quickly become a self-limiting
    process!

    Sort of like thimbleberries. They aren't a candidate for domestication
    but they do illustrate the process. 'Yech. We're not going to save the
    seeds of that one!' It doesn't seem to apply to chestnuts though. 'The
    nuts from that tree were really easy to peel. Let's plant more of them.'

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sat Jun 11 17:51:08 2022
    On 6/11/2022 3:51 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/11/2022 02:26 PM, Don Y wrote:

    30 years ago except for the basics a trip to Spokane was required.

    Ouch! I gripe when I have to drive across town to buy oriental
    food supplies.

    Spokane does have a Asian market with real fish sauce, not that brown, salty stuff you can get anywhere. The clerk tried to steer me away from it, pointing
    me to the brown juice.

    The market we frequent is a long haul but caters to many oriental/polynesian cuisines. It's set up as if it was a collection of markets; each aisle
    (or group of aisles) carrying an overhead sign indicating the cuisine
    in that aisle (thai, vietnamese, etc.). As a result, you may find the
    same product in different aisles (sometimes different prices simply because they only price the items -- with self-adhesive labels! -- when they put
    the items on the shelf... which is whenever that shipment arrives!)

    All of the products are labeled in their "native" languages so you have
    to rely on pictures to understand what you're (hopefully!) buying.

    Price isn't a good guide to quality so you have to experiment with
    different offerings to find the ones you like, best.

    There's a large produce area (two or three times what you'd find at
    a regular supermarket) full of the odd fruits and vegetables you'd
    expect at such a market. I don't think you can find *celery* :>

    There used to be a store (on 17th street) that had an excellent
    selection of teas, spices, nutmeats, etc. I'd go there to hunt for
    teas -- they had two 50 ft aisles devoted to tea -- and buy spices
    in bulk (e.g., a pound of basil or garam masala). But, they sold
    out and the new owners didn't have a clue as to how to keep the
    (successful) business going. They wanted to sell clothing, guitars,
    etc. Didn't take long for them to shut their doors.

    So, now I buy tea and spices (though in smaller lots) at the
    oriental stores in town.

    One place in town used to carry it but the owner went back to Thailand so the pickings are slim.

    There seems to be a common approach to "oriental" store management, here.
    ALL of the inventory is on the shelves. Typically with "price tags"
    instead of "unit labeling" like you'd find in a supermarket. So, if
    you see only a few pieces of a particular item, you *know* that
    there's none "in the back room".

    And, they all seem to wait until there are LOTS of items in short supply
    (or, gone, completely) before reordering. This, coupled with the distance
    to the market, means we keep a pretty good stock of the items that we
    regularly use, on hand as we're never sure what we will be able to
    "restock" on any given visit.

    When I went to Tucson I had my usual route down pat. The Co-op Warehouse, North 4th for laughs, Bookman's on Speedway, and then to an Asian market. iirc
    it was in a mini-mall at Grant and Stone. Ajo had stores for day to day essentials but when the list got too long I'd make a Tucson run, or sometimes Phoenix or Casa Grande. Casa was the closest but was limited.

    Sort of like the folks coming from south of the border! Amusing to see
    all of the "Sonora" plates in the local Costco parking lot.

    Yup. OTOH, if you rolled your own -- with YOUR criteria in mind -- you
    can get performance and economy (if you are willing to embrace certain
    tradeoffs)

    I did that, with a basic round robin scheduler. The trick was making sure each
    task played nice. As you say, a very specific target device with no attempt for
    a general purpose solution.

    You can get *really* lean! If you don't preserve *any* state (other than
    PC) for each task, then you can do task switches in a couple of microseconds. It is surprisingly easy to code under such an environment -- but, only if you're writing in ASM.

    It's just silly to bang your head against the wall to save a few pennies,
    nowadays -- esp when those savings likely come with added complexity
    ("trickiness") that brings along latent bugs.

    I miss the MCS-48 and similar uc's. It was like playing chess with every byte taken into account.

    "Ah! A byte! I can get 8 bools in that! And, if bool#1 is used in
    routineX, which NEVER runs when routineY is active, then I can effectively
    give it a second name for use in that 'other' routine!"

    An early 8085 product (when 2716s were $50) ran a few hundred bytes over
    a 2K boundary, necessitating another $50 of product cost. So, we simply tallied up the number of each subroutine invocations and assigned the
    most frequent ones to ReSTart vectors, trimming each of those 3-byte
    CALLs to 1 byte ReSTarts. Easy peasy.

    When I interviewed for my present job one of the questions
    started with 'assume unlimited memory' and I thought 'Oh, hell...'.

    It is a VERY different mindset. You focus on what you want to do instead of always trying to tweek things for efficiency.

    E.g., if you were to process video, you'd likely have <something>
    filling a frame buffer and <somethingelse> examining that buffer.
    To allow these to co-execute, you'd have several such buffers
    and play lots of pointer games to keep track of which buffer
    was "owned" by which process (to treat them as atomic objects).

    Instead of passing pointers around, I pass the entire *object*,
    regardless of size. This lets me use call-by-value semantics
    everywhere so I don't have to worry about <something> altering
    an object that it has conceptually *passed* to <somethingelse>.
    If <something> tries to change it, then the RTOS makes a copy
    of the object, on-the-fly (copy-on-write) so neither task
    sees any influence from the other.

    [Imagine when you are "passing" that object to <somethingelse>
    on some other node! Pointers just won't cut it!]

    Lack of VMM hardware on small processors makes this approach
    impractical; how do you know when <something> is trying to write
    to an object that it has already "passed"?

    [Reiterating: I cringe when I think of all the opcode fetches I
    burn for these mechanisms! But, it sure makes t easier to develop
    robust implementations!]

    E.g., my current project relies on nodes communicating over ethernet.
    So, there's a support level required in the hardware for the NIC,
    connectors, PoE conditioning, *wiring* (labor!), etc. Once you've
    put that in the budget, the differences between a dog of a processor and
    something "plusher" tend to fall away.

    Network traffic has been a problem for us. It's gotten a lot better but in the
    past sites with iffy networks would complain 'your software is too slow' and we
    would answer 'your network is a pos'. Not exactly a productive discussion. However VM's have also gotten more prevalent. Sure, you can spin up 5 VMs on that server; now about that one NIC...

    Yup. I have 4 NICs in my ESXi server just to ensure there's no network bottleneck. Likewise on the SAN that hosts the VMDKs.

    [And, when there is no activity in the garage, you'd have all of that
    surplus computing power just sitting idle -- wouldn't it be nice to be
    able to EASILY use it for some other task ALREADY RUNNING ELSEWHERE?]

    Go bitcoin mining :)

    <frown>

    I've not found any problem coming up with "work" for them to do.
    Detecting commercials in broadcast TV/radio programming, training
    speech models based on recorded phone conversations, training
    neural nets based on observations of users' actions, etc.

    I suspect the days of "dumb" devices (previously misnamed "smart"
    devices) will quickly be drawing to a close. It's just too cheap
    to buy resources, nowadays (and too many younguns are using
    these "framework" environments that aren't particularly lean)

    I used to drink a beer (/Augustiner Brau/) that was like that. Some
    bottles
    would be smooth as milk shakes. Others would have a "bite" to them. Of
    course, you'd drink even the "bad" ones and then roll the dice, again,
    hoping for a *good* one. This could quickly become a self-limiting
    process!

    Sort of like thimbleberries. They aren't a candidate for domestication but they
    do illustrate the process. 'Yech. We're not going to save the seeds of that one!' It doesn't seem to apply to chestnuts though. 'The nuts from that tree were really easy to peel. Let's plant more of them.'

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Jun 11 22:19:05 2022
    On 06/11/2022 06:51 PM, Don Y wrote:

    There's a large produce area (two or three times what you'd find at
    a regular supermarket) full of the odd fruits and vegetables you'd
    expect at such a market. I don't think you can find *celery* :>

    I've wondered about the source of the produce. Somewhere there must be
    farmers specializing in a niche market. There is a local Hmong community
    and the extended Moua family has taken over the farmer's market as far
    as produce goes but there is nothing exotic. They may grow some for
    their own consumption.

    That's another lesson in adaptation. They ran a restaurant that was
    mostly Thai, that being a safe bet. It was better than the other Thai restaurant that was run by an actual Thai but so it goes.

    They ran a food truck operation in parallel with the restaurant for a
    few years, sticking to the Thai motif. The pad thai was excellent. Then
    they went fully mobile and dumped the restaurant expanding the truck
    fleet. The Thai emphasis slowly moved to teriyaki since there was a
    vacuum in that market for fairs, concerts, and festivals. Still Asian
    although a Japanese might have burned the truck down for cultural appropriation.

    And then... Dutch funnel cakes from Sua Moua's old family recipe.

    Sort of like the folks coming from south of the border! Amusing to see
    all of the "Sonora" plates in the local Costco parking lot.

    Ajo had what may have been the last Sears catalog store and Radio Shack collocated. Tony played guitar so there was guitar stuff too. A lot of
    his business came from Sonoyta. They're a captive audience. It's on
    Federal Hwy 2 but there's a whole lot of nothing on that road until you
    get to San Luis south of Yuma. Going east you can sort of get to Nogales eventually.


    It is surprisingly easy to code under such an environment -- but, only if you're writing in ASM.

    What else is there? Okay, I'm lazy and even when I messing around with
    the Atmel chips on the Arduinos I use their version of C.


    "Ah! A byte! I can get 8 bools in that! And, if bool#1 is used in routineX, which NEVER runs when routineY is active, then I can effectively give it a second name for use in that 'other' routine!"

    Yeah, we've got a couple of places where flags are cunningly set in a
    bitmap. Why stop at 8 when there a 32 perfectly good bits in an int? To
    really ice the cake we have places where the same resource can be
    referred to as the arithmetic value or the bit position:

    foo 0x0001 1
    bar 0x0010 2
    baz 0x0100 3
    bam 0x1000 4

    Try explaining that to a support person. 'Well here bam is 8 but over
    there it's 4 and if you want both foo and bam that's 9 except when it's 5.'

    When I interviewed for my present job one of the questions started
    with 'assume unlimited memory' and I thought 'Oh, hell...'.

    It is a VERY different mindset. You focus on what you want to do
    instead of
    always trying to tweek things for efficiency.

    GUIs were another learning experience. Driving a custom LCD display is a
    bit different than building a Motif blivit.


    Network traffic has been a problem for us. It's gotten a lot better
    but in the past sites with iffy networks would complain 'your software
    is too slow' and we would answer 'your network is a pos'. Not exactly
    a productive discussion. However VM's have also gotten more prevalent.
    Sure, you can spin up 5 VMs on that server; now about that one NIC...

    Yup. I have 4 NICs in my ESXi server just to ensure there's no network bottleneck. Likewise on the SAN that hosts the VMDKs.

    The bottlenecks keep moving. Back in the day of single core processors
    I''d remind people that no matter how slick it all looked it was one
    processor running one instruction at a time. I've had to change my rant
    to 'sure it's got eight cores. That service is single threaded and only
    runs on one of them'.

    I've not found any problem coming up with "work" for them to do.
    Detecting commercials in broadcast TV/radio programming, training
    speech models based on recorded phone conversations, training
    neural nets based on observations of users' actions, etc.

    I suspect the days of "dumb" devices (previously misnamed "smart"
    devices) will quickly be drawing to a close. It's just too cheap
    to buy resources, nowadays (and too many younguns are using
    these "framework" environments that aren't particularly lean)

    No, they're not. Angular will happily eat you out of house and home.
    When I got a new machine with 16GB of ram I thought I was in tall
    cotton. Then you try to open a link in Brave and it says 'sorry I don't
    have enough memory to do that' before the box crashes.

    I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11 so I expect little
    annoyances like that but one of the testers inadvertently went to the production 11 and saw the same thing last week. A couple of people got
    11 and we're not exactly sure how but I think it was an innocuous little question during the windows update like 'do you want to destroy your
    life' that got clicked.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jun 12 03:04:32 2022
    On 6/11/2022 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/11/2022 06:51 PM, Don Y wrote:

    There's a large produce area (two or three times what you'd find at
    a regular supermarket) full of the odd fruits and vegetables you'd
    expect at such a market. I don't think you can find *celery* :>

    I've wondered about the source of the produce. Somewhere there must be farmers
    specializing in a niche market. There is a local Hmong community and the extended Moua family has taken over the farmer's market as far as produce goes
    but there is nothing exotic. They may grow some for their own consumption.

    I suspect you can buy damn near anything, if you are a produce buyer
    (and willing to pay "the going rate"). We are increasingly seeing
    more exotic items even in mainstream grocers -- dragon fruit, lychee,
    kiwi, jicama, leeks, bok choy, coconuts, etc. There was an excellent
    produce market in one of the Chicago suburbs that I used to frequent
    as they seemed to have damn near anything you could want, and at any *time*
    you wanted it (obviously drawing on suppliers from around the world
    to compensate for different growing seasons). It's not just "blueberries, lettuce and celery", anymore.

    It is surprisingly easy to code under such an environment -- but, only if
    you're writing in ASM.

    What else is there? Okay, I'm lazy and even when I messing around with the Atmel chips on the Arduinos I use their version of C.

    I strongly resist writing anything in ASM, nowadays. I'm forced to,
    of course, for some of the "locore" stuff, context save/restore, etc.
    But, even ISRs get written in HLLs. It's just too much of a PITA
    to port anything else!

    I often have to resort to using fixed point (not integer) math in
    places (e.g., Qm.n) when I can't count on having floating
    point hardware available (and when a FP library is just too damn
    slow). But, that's still tolerable. Esp if expressed in a HLL.

    When I interviewed for my present job one of the questions started
    with 'assume unlimited memory' and I thought 'Oh, hell...'.

    It is a VERY different mindset. You focus on what you want to do
    instead of
    always trying to tweek things for efficiency.

    GUIs were another learning experience. Driving a custom LCD display is a bit different than building a Motif blivit.

    IME, folks opt for OTS solutions when they are faced with "traditional" UIs (vs. "dedicated buttons"). They seem intimidated by the notion of writing a BLTer and building an image from component parts, glyphs, etc. Likewise,
    the notion of an up-down keyboard confuses; seemingly unable to think in
    terms of anything but "keystrokes".

    I've seen lots of designs that opted to be "PC-based" simply because
    the developer was hoping to leverage the user interface hardware and API... and, chose to ignore just how many hoops he'd have to jump through to
    make the code act in the way they *needed* it to act under that OS.

    Network traffic has been a problem for us. It's gotten a lot better
    but in the past sites with iffy networks would complain 'your software
    is too slow' and we would answer 'your network is a pos'. Not exactly
    a productive discussion. However VM's have also gotten more prevalent.
    Sure, you can spin up 5 VMs on that server; now about that one NIC...

    Yup. I have 4 NICs in my ESXi server just to ensure there's no network
    bottleneck. Likewise on the SAN that hosts the VMDKs.

    The bottlenecks keep moving.

    Of course. But, they are effectively of the same type. Some resource
    (memory, MIPS, time) that has to be shared and against which too many
    "leases" have been assessed. As long as you don't stop thinking
    about the details of what's under the hood, you can continue to make intelligent design/usage choices.

    My current design is "open" in much the same way that a personal computer
    is open; I have no control over *what* a user will decide to add to it.
    And, no control over how those things will behave.

    So, I have a "workload manager" on each node that admits and ejects
    processes based on its observations of how under/over-loaded the
    node's resources happen to be. A developer who is piggish can
    shoot himself in the foot by being too greedy; if the node is
    overloaded and the workload manager can't find another node to
    reduce some of the local needs, the "fat boy" can be unceremoniously
    axed to enable other, less greedy processes to continue to run.

    I.e., I can't force you to be benevolent/cooperative -- but I
    can punish you if you aren't! :>

    Back in the day of single core processors I''d
    remind people that no matter how slick it all looked it was one processor running one instruction at a time. I've had to change my rant to 'sure it's got
    eight cores. That service is single threaded and only runs on one of them'.

    I've not found any problem coming up with "work" for them to do.
    Detecting commercials in broadcast TV/radio programming, training
    speech models based on recorded phone conversations, training
    neural nets based on observations of users' actions, etc.

    I suspect the days of "dumb" devices (previously misnamed "smart"
    devices) will quickly be drawing to a close. It's just too cheap
    to buy resources, nowadays (and too many younguns are using
    these "framework" environments that aren't particularly lean)

    No, they're not. Angular will happily eat you out of house and home. When I got
    a new machine with 16GB of ram I thought I was in tall cotton. Then you try to
    open a link in Brave and it says 'sorry I don't have enough memory to do that'
    before the box crashes.

    But you don't tend to find those sorts of bloat in *appliances*. There's
    a different mindset in terms of how the hardware can be used in that it
    often can't be upgraded after the sale.

    I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11

    My condolences. :> I *tolerate* using windows but draw the line at
    developing under it! I much prefer a stationary target than one
    that (seems to) change on a whim. (I avoid Linux for similar
    reasons -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it!)

    so I expect little annoyances
    like that but one of the testers inadvertently went to the production 11 and saw the same thing last week. A couple of people got 11 and we're not exactly sure how but I think it was an innocuous little question during the windows update like 'do you want to destroy your life' that got clicked.

    I don't understand how folks can NOT have control over the software
    that they are exposed to -- whether it's on their PC (routine updates
    of OS, apps, etc.) or in their appliances (cars, TVs, etc.).

    I can much easier learn to live with a set of problems than I can
    continually have to adapt to changes (which introduce yet-to-be-seen
    problems)!

    I particularly enjoy looking back at the detailed justifications
    MS wrote for various UI/UX issues... and, how they "suddenly"
    changed, over time. ("And what makes you think THESE are the
    final verdict?")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 12 12:28:15 2022
    On 06/12/2022 04:04 AM, Don Y wrote:

    I suspect you can buy damn near anything, if you are a produce buyer
    (and willing to pay "the going rate"). We are increasingly seeing
    more exotic items even in mainstream grocers -- dragon fruit, lychee,
    kiwi, jicama, leeks, bok choy, coconuts, etc. There was an excellent
    produce market in one of the Chicago suburbs that I used to frequent
    as they seemed to have damn near anything you could want, and at any *time* you wanted it (obviously drawing on suppliers from around the world
    to compensate for different growing seasons). It's not just "blueberries, lettuce and celery", anymore.

    I wouldn't call coconuts exotic. I remember dueling with them as a kid
    and the coconut usually won. A couple of the local markets have durians.
    I knew what they were because a friend married a Thai woman whose family
    had a durian plantation. It shares the honor with surströmming as being
    a food banned on some public transportation but with durian it's
    strictly the smell not the danger of the cans exploding.

    If nothing else it keeps the supermarket checkers on their toes if the
    stuff isn't barcoded. They have enough trouble telling a butternut from
    a buttercup squash. The latter is being displaced by kabocha around here.


    I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11

    My condolences. :> I *tolerate* using windows but draw the line at developing under it! I much prefer a stationary target than one
    that (seems to) change on a whim. (I avoid Linux for similar
    reasons -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it!)

    Market forces and all that. The original target was AIX on RS6000
    systems. Y2K helped end that. The IBM patches required fairly recent
    hardware. Many sites looked at the cost of upgrading the IBM boxes,
    rolled the dice, and went to Windows. We used Linux internally for
    development but only two sites used it and that was only for the servers.

    MS possibly made the same mistake as IBM with Windows 11 and its
    hardware requirements. So far I see no compelling reason to go to 11 particularly if it means buying new hardware.

    I don't understand how folks can NOT have control over the software
    that they are exposed to -- whether it's on their PC (routine updates
    of OS, apps, etc.) or in their appliances (cars, TVs, etc.).

    The showstopper for my personal laptop is the requirement to log on to
    your Microsoft account to set up 11. When I set up the new 10 laptop it
    was not even connected to the net, and I run as a local user. It whines
    every now and then about not being connected to an account but that can
    be ignored.

    I particularly enjoy looking back at the detailed justifications
    MS wrote for various UI/UX issues... and, how they "suddenly"
    changed, over time. ("And what makes you think THESE are the
    final verdict?")

    A lot of developers are gun shy. UWP has been widely ignored. MS would
    love to get rid of WPF and WinForms but it's not happening. They could
    shoot Silverlight but that wasn't all that popular.

    MS has Apple envy but never developed the fanatical fan base that will
    jump through any hoop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jun 12 12:20:37 2022
    On 6/12/2022 11:28 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/12/2022 04:04 AM, Don Y wrote:

    I suspect you can buy damn near anything, if you are a produce buyer
    (and willing to pay "the going rate"). We are increasingly seeing
    more exotic items even in mainstream grocers -- dragon fruit, lychee,
    kiwi, jicama, leeks, bok choy, coconuts, etc. There was an excellent
    produce market in one of the Chicago suburbs that I used to frequent
    as they seemed to have damn near anything you could want, and at any *time* >> you wanted it (obviously drawing on suppliers from around the world
    to compensate for different growing seasons). It's not just "blueberries, >> lettuce and celery", anymore.

    I wouldn't call coconuts exotic. I remember dueling with them as a kid and the
    coconut usually won. A couple of the local markets have durians. I knew what they were because a friend married a Thai woman whose family had a durian plantation. It shares the honor with surströmming as being a food banned on some public transportation but with durian it's strictly the smell not the danger of the cans exploding.

    It depends on what the local population (customer base) wants to buy.
    Growing up, never any demand for coconuts, plantains, dragon fruit,
    kiwi, etc. You saw generic fruits and vegetables (tomatoes, cukes,
    various melons, turnips, radishes, romaine, etc.) nothing like arugula
    (but endive!) or napa cabbage or jicama or...

    Similarly, you wouldn't find Gouda but would find various Romanos,
    some Swiss and maybe "American". And, far more cheeses that were
    aged long enough to be used for grating. Hot dogs/sausage were
    made by local suppliers -- but ne'er a taco in sight!

    If nothing else it keeps the supermarket checkers on their toes if the stuff isn't barcoded. They have enough trouble telling a butternut from a buttercup squash. The latter is being displaced by kabocha around here.

    I'm on the Windows Insider dev channel for 11

    My condolences. :> I *tolerate* using windows but draw the line at
    developing under it! I much prefer a stationary target than one
    that (seems to) change on a whim. (I avoid Linux for similar
    reasons -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it!)

    Market forces and all that. The original target was AIX on RS6000 systems. Y2K
    helped end that. The IBM patches required fairly recent hardware. Many sites looked at the cost of upgrading the IBM boxes, rolled the dice, and went to Windows. We used Linux internally for development but only two sites used it and that was only for the servers.

    Vendors want a platform that:
    - their customers have adopted or will adopt
    - that will continue to evolve to address new technologies and hardware
    - that won't "go away" (GEM, anyone?)

    *Users* want products that don't significantly change (!)

    [SWMBO still runs Office 2K as she has no desire to rebuild all
    of her Access DBs just because MS wanted to make changes to it!]

    [[I won't move beyond W7 as I've far too many tools that I *know*
    run on it (after losing some that only ran on XP) and I've no
    desire to repurchase the capabilities that I already have, nor any
    interest in learning yet another way to do the same thing!]]

    [[[I develop SW under NetBSD largely because I can maintain the
    OS and tools. No compiler extensions/non-portable pragmas -- my
    code has to build under at least three different ecosystems
    (x86, SPARC, ARM) and I'm not keen on getting in bed with just
    a single toolchain as I can't assume folks using my codebase
    will be keen on that!]]]

    MS possibly made the same mistake as IBM with Windows 11 and its hardware requirements. So far I see no compelling reason to go to 11 particularly if it
    means buying new hardware.

    I've not seen any need (as a user) to move forward on MS's OS
    offerings. I don't develop for that platform so don't care if
    the platform evolves beyond me. And, I don't see any compelling
    *features* that it offers as a user environment nor any compelling
    APPs that are only hosted on newer versions of the OS

    [If I did, I would likely just set up a small VM and not bother moving/upgrading any of my other tools... too much inertia!]

    My workstations are older but still reasonably competent (six of
    them: dual CPU, 6-core Xeons, 144G RAM, 6T rust -- there's just
    THAT much inertia to overcome!) and I *know* the machines spend
    more time twiddling their thumbs waiting for my meatware to decide
    what to do next!

    [Also, growing up with dog slow development systems means my
    work habits are inherently multitasking -- don't sit waiting
    for a machine to finish a task, move on to some other task!]

    I don't understand how folks can NOT have control over the software
    that they are exposed to -- whether it's on their PC (routine updates
    of OS, apps, etc.) or in their appliances (cars, TVs, etc.).

    The showstopper for my personal laptop is the requirement to log on to your Microsoft account to set up 11. When I set up the new 10 laptop it was not even
    connected to the net, and I run as a local user. It whines every now and then about not being connected to an account but that can be ignored.

    My Windows machines are all HP/Dell so SLIC with a "genuine HP/Dell install DVD" gets me past the need to activate licenses, on-line. Download the
    updates of interest. Run machines air-gapped and you can largely ignore
    future updates.

    Other machines run NetBSD and don't have the need for "activation" (and
    the updates I pursue are usually major release updates, nothing incremental) E.g., I keep a little netbook to which I attach an external USB drive and periodically rsync my "distfiles" archive. Then, take the netbook and the external drive and put them back in a desk drawer. What need to update
    that "appliance"? :>

    I opted not to upgrade my Adobe suite (to "CC") for similar reasons.
    What do I *gain* from that to justify the cost, time and *risk*?

    I particularly enjoy looking back at the detailed justifications
    MS wrote for various UI/UX issues... and, how they "suddenly"
    changed, over time. ("And what makes you think THESE are the
    final verdict?")

    A lot of developers are gun shy. UWP has been widely ignored. MS would love to
    get rid of WPF and WinForms but it's not happening. They could shoot Silverlight but that wasn't all that popular.

    MS has Apple envy but never developed the fanatical fan base that will jump through any hoop.

    Windows is a Chevy; if it still runs and gets you from point A to point B,
    then there's no real NEED to replace it.

    Of course, all software vendors (and product vendors, in general) WANT you
    to think you need the latest and greatest. Otherwise, you might be happy
    with what you've *already* purchased! :-/

    Sunday lunch: oriental meal. Finestkind!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 12 19:12:03 2022
    On 06/12/2022 01:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Similarly, you wouldn't find Gouda but would find various Romanos,
    some Swiss and maybe "American". And, far more cheeses that were
    aged long enough to be used for grating. Hot dogs/sausage were
    made by local suppliers -- but ne'er a taco in sight!

    Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that I
    didn't get as a kid. For that matter pizza was something you got from
    shady looking taverns run by gangsters. We did have a variety of cheeses
    and I was adventuresome although my go-around with Sap Sago (Schabziger)
    was puzzling. Gjetost was much more satisfying. I still get that from
    time to time.

    https://wnyt.com/news/hazmat-situation-tobins-first-prize-demolition-colonie-albany-county/6418399/

    Tobin's was the major hot dog supplier although there were several
    smaller stores that made a variety of wursts. Fortunately the hazmat
    situation was only ammonia from the cooling apparatus and not a trove of
    heavy metals mixed in with the hot dogs.

    There was a bar/eatery in Kitterey ME that catered to the shipyard. We
    were working on refinishing a wooden hulled yawl at a boatyard also in
    Kittery and went there for lunch one day. 'Taco' was on the chalkboard
    and seemed a little expensive but I figured why not. The taco came in a
    bowl with the shell in the bottom layered with the lettuce and meat
    sauce. It was like they'd read a recipe but had never seen a taco and
    played it by ear.

    Not surprising for Maine. My lead tech asked me one day what you did wit
    those shiny black things that were starting to appear in the vegetable
    section. This was an intelligent woman in her 30's with a family that
    had never encountered an eggplant.

    I did eventually make it to Knotts Berry Farm in the '90s. It was
    entertaining and not as disappointing as when I made it to Haight
    Ashbury 20 years too late.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Jun 12 20:00:15 2022
    On 6/12/2022 6:12 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/12/2022 01:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Similarly, you wouldn't find Gouda but would find various Romanos,
    some Swiss and maybe "American". And, far more cheeses that were
    aged long enough to be used for grating. Hot dogs/sausage were
    made by local suppliers -- but ne'er a taco in sight!

    Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that I didn't
    get as a kid.

    I never heard the term growing up -- the "communities" were all composed
    of european descendants so lots of "ethnic" foodstuffs in THAT sense.
    I probably knew 30 different pasta shapes (and the advantages of each)
    and at least that many different pasta *dishes*, sauce styles, etc.
    Galobki, pierogi, potato pancakes, etc.

    My favorite pasta shapes being cavatelli and fusilli col buco. The
    former I make, from time to time. The latter are a technological
    wonder, to me!

    For that matter pizza was something you got from shady looking
    taverns run by gangsters.

    Pizza was either NY style (purchased) or "italian bakery style"
    (the latter being far superior and considerably less greasy).

    We did have a variety of cheeses and I was
    adventuresome although my go-around with Sap Sago (Schabziger) was puzzling. Gjetost was much more satisfying. I still get that from time to time.

    One thing I noticed, later in life, was that many dishes that we made with ricotta were, instead, made with meat, in The West. This was a delightful revelation as ricotta falls in the "I don't like cheese" category!

    My first homemade raviolis were meat made and I had three helpings.
    (By contrast, my folks had to buy meat ones "special" for me
    growing up as I wouldn't eat the cheese ones that they all ate)

    Likewise, my first "western lasagna" was made grinding up a *roast*
    to get the ground meat for the filling -- with just a nominal
    amount of ricotta as window dressing.

    Tobin's was the major hot dog supplier although there were several smaller stores that made a variety of wursts. Fortunately the hazmat situation was only
    ammonia from the cooling apparatus and not a trove of heavy metals mixed in with the hot dogs.

    Martin Rosol's was the local vendor for most "sausage-like" items. You could pick up "fresh" and eat, that evening.

    There was a bar/eatery in Kitterey ME that catered to the shipyard. We were working on refinishing a wooden hulled yawl at a boatyard also in Kittery and went there for lunch one day. 'Taco' was on the chalkboard and seemed a little
    expensive but I figured why not. The taco came in a bowl with the shell in the
    bottom layered with the lettuce and meat sauce. It was like they'd read a recipe but had never seen a taco and played it by ear.

    Too funny.

    Not surprising for Maine. My lead tech asked me one day what you did wit those
    shiny black things that were starting to appear in the vegetable section. This
    was an intelligent woman in her 30's with a family that had never encountered an eggplant.

    For me, the OhMiGosh moments have been encountering "produce" in its natural state. E.g., you KNOW citrus grows on trees but seeing them is a different story. And, more exotic varieties even moreso (e.g., the sanguinellos are actually *red* skinned, at maturity)

    "Gee, that's garlic!" "Wow, is that how artichokes grow?" (if you've ever seen one in bloom, you'd lament the fact that it was harvested before that time)

    We grow sage and rosemary (but not to harvest) and the dogs would come in
    the house *stinking* of those scents (a little bit goes a long way!). You
    had to wonder if it was deliberate, on their part!

    Pineapple is a surprise when you see it "native". As are cashews.
    Pomegranates are interesting to watch mature as you can see the vestigial flower in it's "ass".

    I did eventually make it to Knotts Berry Farm in the '90s. It was entertaining
    and not as disappointing as when I made it to Haight Ashbury 20 years too late.

    That;s about the timeframe I visited KBF. "Oh, a DisneyLand wannabe!"
    I'd been to DisneyWorld some decades earlier. And, of course,
    Riverside Park, Lake Compounce, Catskill Game Farm, etc.

    Didn't make it to CA until the early 80's (traveling for work). Recall standing in the back of a pickup -- in the rain -- driving to San Rafael
    (Guide Dogs for the Blind) singing GD songs (no room in the cab as the
    two passengers were blind and we obviously needed a sighted driver!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Jun 12 23:50:05 2022
    On 06/12/2022 09:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that
    I didn't get as a kid.

    I never heard the term growing up -- the "communities" were all composed
    of european descendants so lots of "ethnic" foodstuffs in THAT sense.
    I probably knew 30 different pasta shapes (and the advantages of each)
    and at least that many different pasta *dishes*, sauce styles, etc.
    Galobki, pierogi, potato pancakes, etc

    The tacos and KBF were from California TV programs. 'And the prize is a
    pass for two to KBF' was usually said that led me to believe it wasn't
    rated too highly.

    My favorite pasta shapes being cavatelli and fusilli col buco. The
    former I make, from time to time. The latter are a technological
    wonder, to me!

    I recall spaghetti, lasangna, maybe shells, egg noodles, and the
    ubiquitous elbow macaroni. 'Pasta' wasn't used as a descriptor with the exception of pasta fagioli, but that was said as one word 'pastafazoo'.
    When pasta became more widely used I thought it was sort of an upper
    crust word for spaghetti.

    For that matter pizza was something you got from shady looking taverns
    run by gangsters.

    Pizza was either NY style (purchased) or "italian bakery style"
    (the latter being far superior and considerably less greasy).

    It was NYS so I guess it was NY style by definition. A far as I knew it
    was just pizza. My uncle lived in the city and I liked going to his
    place. He'd phone the bar at the of the block and later I would go pick
    it up at the ladies' entrance. We never had pizza at home s it was a treat.

    That was much better than when the half in the bag adults would try to
    make a pizza from a Chef Boyardee pizza kit.


    One thing I noticed, later in life, was that many dishes that we made with ricotta were, instead, made with meat, in The West. This was a delightful revelation as ricotta falls in the "I don't like cheese" category!

    For me, ricotta falls into the 'gimme a spoon' category.

    My first homemade raviolis were meat made and I had three helpings.
    (By contrast, my folks had to buy meat ones "special" for me
    growing up as I wouldn't eat the cheese ones that they all ate)

    As far as I can remember any ravioli I've ever had came out of a Franco-American can.

    Likewise, my first "western lasagna" was made grinding up a *roast*
    to get the ground meat for the filling -- with just a nominal
    amount of ricotta as window dressing.

    I haven't dine lasagna in a long time. I think the last effort was
    spinach and a variety of cheeses.

    "Gee, that's garlic!" "Wow, is that how artichokes grow?" (if you've ever seen one in bloom, you'd lament the fact that it was harvested before that time)

    Shades of the Gilroy Garlic Festival. It's often foggy on that stretch
    but you know when you're getting close. I've planted garlic when the
    cloves were sprouting just to see what I'd get. I've never seen an
    artichoke in bloom. I've eaten pickled artichoke hearts but never did
    the field strip the thing and dip the ends in hollandaise sauce thing.
    Life is too short.

    Pineapple is a surprise when you see it "native". As are cashews. Pomegranates are interesting to watch mature as you can see the vestigial flower in it's "ass".

    Ah, cashews, a relative of poison ivy. Forget the first person to eat a lobster; who was the first person to figure out there was something
    edible in there.

    That;s about the timeframe I visited KBF. "Oh, a DisneyLand wannabe!"
    I'd been to DisneyWorld some decades earlier. And, of course,
    Riverside Park, Lake Compounce, Catskill Game Farm, etc.

    I liked the Catskill Game Farm. No Disneyland, Sherman's Amusement Park
    at Caroga Lake was the local hot spot. Averill Park was down to a
    carousel and miniature train ride when I was a kid but it was only a few
    miles away. It's claim to fame is Jerry Lewis once worked as a soda jerk
    at the drug store. Later he was just a jerk.

    A couple of summers we went to Old Orchard. It was seedy the last time I
    was there but I think it's made a comeback.

    The trucking company I worked for had a terminal near State College and
    Ball Rd, a mile from Disneyland. I was in town for the Rodney King
    riots, sitting in my truck reading, when Dizzyland had their evening
    fireworks extravaganza. Needless to say I was out of the truck locked
    and loaded before I figured out what it was.

    Never went there although I did make it to Disneyworld in the '80s.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Jun 13 00:39:37 2022
    On 6/12/2022 10:50 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 06/12/2022 09:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Tacos were some sort of Califoria in-joke like Knotts Berry Farm that
    I didn't get as a kid.

    I never heard the term growing up -- the "communities" were all composed
    of european descendants so lots of "ethnic" foodstuffs in THAT sense.
    I probably knew 30 different pasta shapes (and the advantages of each)
    and at least that many different pasta *dishes*, sauce styles, etc.
    Galobki, pierogi, potato pancakes, etc

    The tacos and KBF were from California TV programs. 'And the prize is a pass for two to KBF' was usually said that led me to believe it wasn't rated too highly.

    Ah. So you had to live there to understand the reference.

    My favorite pasta shapes being cavatelli and fusilli col buco. The
    former I make, from time to time. The latter are a technological
    wonder, to me!

    I recall spaghetti, lasangna, maybe shells, egg noodles, and the ubiquitous elbow macaroni. 'Pasta' wasn't used as a descriptor with the exception of pasta
    fagioli, but that was said as one word 'pastafazoo'. When pasta became more widely used I thought it was sort of an upper crust word for spaghetti.

    /Pasta e fagioli/ -- pasta and beans. A terrible thing to do to pasta!

    Fettuccine, Linguine, Spaghetti, Spaghettini/Vermicelli, Capellini -- different thicknesses of long, straight noodles. Bucatini is spaghetti with a *hole* through the entire length (dunno how it is done!) Fusilli col buco is
    bucatini wrapped around a ~1/8" dia form before drying (like a really long screw-shape!)

    Conchiglie (shells) tiny, small, medium, large -- too easily stuffed (with ricotta!) :<

    Penne, Ziti, Mostaccioli, Rigatoni, Tortiglioni -- tubes with or without "decorated" exterior surfaces (e.g., ribs)

    Farfalle (bow ties), Rotini/fusilli (cork screws), Rotelle (like Conestoga wagon wheels)

    Manicotti, cannelloni -- the pasta equivalent of a cannoli -- more ricotta. Ick!

    Pastina (diced spaghetti?), orzo (rice-shaped).

    Fresh made capellini is delightful! I don't think you even need to
    CHEW it! Cavatelli are nice and heavy -- but not as heavy as gnocchi.
    Fusilli col buco is just plain *fun*!

    The problem with most pastas (when it comes to hand-made) is that
    it's too hard to make extra. So, you end up eating the entire batch.

    For that matter pizza was something you got from shady looking taverns
    run by gangsters.

    Pizza was either NY style (purchased) or "italian bakery style"
    (the latter being far superior and considerably less greasy).

    It was NYS so I guess it was NY style by definition. A far as I knew it was just pizza. My uncle lived in the city and I liked going to his place. He'd phone the bar at the of the block and later I would go pick it up at the ladies' entrance. We never had pizza at home s it was a treat.

    We'd drive into the city for shopping trips. Meals at Grotta Azzurra
    on Mulberry. Sweets at Ferrara's on Grand. Not the sort of neighborhoods you'd want to get lost in... <frown> (and ignore the nice gentlemen with
    the black suits!)

    That was much better than when the half in the bag adults would try to make a pizza from a Chef Boyardee pizza kit.

    Any pasta in a can has to be pretty gross. I recall eating C-rations of spaghetti... I never knew pasta could be *fatty*! :-/

    One thing I noticed, later in life, was that many dishes that we made with >> ricotta were, instead, made with meat, in The West. This was a delightful >> revelation as ricotta falls in the "I don't like cheese" category!

    For me, ricotta falls into the 'gimme a spoon' category.

    You can make fresh ricotta with heavy cream and milk "despoiled" with lemon juice or vinegar. I'd rather see the heavy cream get used to make
    ice cream!

    My first homemade raviolis were meat made and I had three helpings.
    (By contrast, my folks had to buy meat ones "special" for me
    growing up as I wouldn't eat the cheese ones that they all ate)

    As far as I can remember any ravioli I've ever had came out of a Franco-American can.

    We'd purchase them from The Ravioli Kitchen (name sure is apropos, eh?).
    You could freeze them if not eaten "fresh".

    Likewise, my first "western lasagna" was made grinding up a *roast*
    to get the ground meat for the filling -- with just a nominal
    amount of ricotta as window dressing.

    I haven't dine lasagna in a long time. I think the last effort was spinach and
    a variety of cheeses.

    I now make a veggie lasagna as SWMBO isn't keen on meat and I'm not keen on cheese. It's surprisingly good -- mainly because of the flavorings of the sauce. But, it's a PITA to make as you have to prep the noodles, all of the veggies, etc. For that much effort, I'd rather something tastier!

    "Gee, that's garlic!" "Wow, is that how artichokes grow?" (if you've ever >> seen one in bloom, you'd lament the fact that it was harvested before that >> time)

    Shades of the Gilroy Garlic Festival. It's often foggy on that stretch but you
    know when you're getting close. I've planted garlic when the cloves were sprouting just to see what I'd get.

    The plant produces seed at the top as well as cloves at the bottom.
    The seed at top takes two years (crops) to yield good garlic.

    I've never seen an artichoke in bloom.

    <https://i.redd.it/aeft36vzsw4z.jpg>

    The plants are pretty tall -- they're a type of thistle. Of course, once
    it blooms, there's no value to eating it!

    I've
    eaten pickled artichoke hearts but never did the field strip the thing and dip
    the ends in hollandaise sauce thing. Life is too short.

    I prepare them by stuffing each leaf with a seasoned breadcrumb mixture (cheese, salt, pepper, garlic, bread crumbs) drizzled with olive oil. Then, steaming for a long time (I have special stands that support each artichoke over a water bath in a covered sauce pot). Then, baked.

    Peel leaves (from bottom up), slip in mouth, close jaw, scrape bread crumb mixture and "meat" of the leaf into your mouth. It's akin to eating pistachios with about the same level of satisfaction. Though I can't eat more than two
    as they are kinda rich.

    I always avoided the hearts. Then, late in life, realized how foolish I'd been!

    That;s about the timeframe I visited KBF. "Oh, a DisneyLand wannabe!"
    I'd been to DisneyWorld some decades earlier. And, of course,
    Riverside Park, Lake Compounce, Catskill Game Farm, etc.

    I liked the Catskill Game Farm. No Disneyland, Sherman's Amusement Park at Caroga Lake was the local hot spot. Averill Park was down to a carousel and miniature train ride when I was a kid but it was only a few miles away. It's claim to fame is Jerry Lewis once worked as a soda jerk at the drug store. Later he was just a jerk.

    Lake Compounce (poor man's disneyland) had a small train that circled the
    lake. Train was originally on the grounds of the Gillette "castle".

    A couple of summers we went to Old Orchard. It was seedy the last time I was there but I think it's made a comeback.

    The trucking company I worked for had a terminal near State College and Ball Rd, a mile from Disneyland. I was in town for the Rodney King riots, sitting in
    my truck reading, when Dizzyland had their evening fireworks extravaganza. Needless to say I was out of the truck locked and loaded before I figured out what it was.

    Visited a colleague in SoCal and was treated to a *day* at DisneyLand.
    After dark, everyone gathered at the water's edge ("What the hell are
    we doing, here?"). Delightful show on the island, fireworks and
    "Tinker Bell" rides a wire down from the top of the Castle (midnight?).

    My visits to DisneyWorld never extended past evening so this was
    quite a surprise.

    Never went there although I did make it to Disneyworld in the '80s.

    I heard COuntry Bear Jamboree had been shipped off (Japan) at one
    point. But, I've also heard it is back (in Orlando). Dunno.

    Of course, the animatronics look hokey, now. But, as a youngster,
    they were interesting.

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Jun 13 13:42:18 2022
    On May 29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Our standard of living can be measured by the number of BTU
    consumed per capita, annually.

    The reason we all live like kings, today, is due to the magnificent job
    done by the energy industry, coal --> petroleum --> gas

    --
    Rich

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Jun 13 13:59:54 2022
    On May 29, Ricky wrote:
    What is amazing in the debates over BEV adoption, is the sense of entitlement.
    Convenience über alles!

    'convenience' is a synonym for freedom.

    Try incarceration sometime, to experience inconvenience -

    --
    Rich

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  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to RichD on Tue Jun 14 04:01:07 2022
    On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:42:22 PM UTC+2, RichD wrote:
    On May 29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting
    better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Our standard of living can be measured by the number of BTU
    consumed per capita, annually.

    It used to be. Kilowatt hours of energy consumed is now a more accurate metric.

    The reason we all live like kings, today, is due to the magnificent job
    done by the energy industry, coal --> petroleum --> gas

    But burning coal oil and gas is no longer the cheapest way of getting a kilowatt hour of energy.

    Some people have noticed. Others still think that burning fossil carbon is the only way to get energy, and haven't noticed that climate change is an inevitable side effect.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to RichD on Tue Jun 14 09:16:33 2022
    On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 4:42:22 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
    On May 29, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    Lifespans, nutrition, crop yields, access to education and medical
    care, human rights, practically anything you can name keeps getting better. Oil and gas are major contributors to human well-being.

    Our standard of living can be measured by the number of BTU
    consumed per capita, annually.

    The reason we all live like kings, today, is due to the magnificent job
    done by the energy industry, coal --> petroleum --> gas

    That is very true. It is very addictive as well. That was my point. So addictive, in fact, that even in the face of altering our plant's climate, possibly permanently, some of us live in denial and choose to continue on the same path of excessive
    consumption that has pointed us in this direction. Slow down? How absurd!!! Turn back? Of course not!

    That's called, "entitlement".

    Good thing technology will deal with the issue, hopefully, in time.

    --

    Rick C.

    +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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