• Lithium-ion Battery Degradation

    From Ricky@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 19 08:10:54 2022
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu May 19 09:50:27 2022
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
    life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
    devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

    Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have
    infinite free time.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Drive less, charge less, last longer.

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu May 19 18:41:09 2022
    On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
    life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
    devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw


    Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have
    infinite free time.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu May 19 10:20:49 2022
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:41:17 PM UTC-4, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
    life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
    devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

    Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have
    infinite free time.

    Basically he said, if you drive anything other than a Leaf, "Don't worry, be happy!"

    The useful info starts around 9 minutes in.

    https://youtu.be/IHz-Kx5h_Tw?t=536

    He does discuss that there are mechanisms that degrade a battery based on use and mechanisms that degrade a battery based on age. He talks about the age issue very little, but it would not seem to show up in the data much at all. While there may be
    some degradation with age, the guy with a 36 year old truck with 250,000 miles on it, is the only person in this group who might actually have a real concern. But if he buys a new ICE truck before they stop being made, he can probably be buried with it
    still in runnable condition... if he can find gas.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Thu May 19 18:00:43 2022
    Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
    life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
    devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

    Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have
    infinite free time.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Drive less, charge less, last longer.

    Lol, and well said. Not sure how anybody can expand that into some 25
    minute viseo.

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu May 19 18:19:05 2022
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
    life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
    devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw


    Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have
    infinite free time.

    Jeroen Belleman

    1. Set Playback Speed to 1.5

    2. Set time to 8:23 Why do Lithium Ion Batteries Lose Capacity

    3. 14:15 What Makes Degradation Worse

    4. Lots of complex variables

    5. Some battery types are better than others

    6. Batteries wear out, same as engines and other mechanical parts

    7. Batteries are getting better



    --
    MRM

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Thu May 19 12:53:24 2022
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:00:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
    life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
    devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

    Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have
    infinite free time.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Drive less, charge less, last longer.
    Lol, and well said. Not sure how anybody can expand that into some 25
    minute viseo.

    That's actually all a Leaf driver would want to know, because if you watch the video, he talks repeatedly how important operation at elevated temperatures is much worse for the battery than operation at 20°C and below. People focus on operation at cold
    temperatures since it does impact the capacity and range, but operation at elevated temperatures permanently damages the capacity and range. The Leaf has no temperature control, not even a fan, to minimize impacts on the battery. The result is a
    measurable reduction in the lifespan of the battery in the Leaf. Ask Ed, he'll tell you his Leaf has very little range left.

    If you drive a Leaf, you probably want to keep your head in the sand.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Thu May 19 16:56:58 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

    Cheers


    --


    ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

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  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Thu May 19 21:53:29 2022
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile>> devices have the lifespan
    they do.>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

    I don't think anybody misses running "portable" electronics off lead acid batteries.

    NIMh was a step up, but the energy density of the lithium stuff is ever
    better. Cordless power tools that work as good or better than corded ones
    is reality these days.

    Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years. Things we have
    now like RC drones are just not possible with lead acid or nickel cadmium batteries, unless a 3 minute flight time is long enough.

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  • From Piotr Wyderski@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Fri May 20 03:16:24 2022
    Cydrome Leader wrote:

    Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years.

    Indeed. I don't think that lead-acid batteries could do this trick:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

    Best regards, Piotr

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Fri May 20 02:06:56 2022
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
    Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded)
    of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
    in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>>
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a
    little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
    Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

    Cheers

    Fusion has fundamental roadblocks that cannot be overcome. The solution to energy is Thorium Molten Salt.

    Battery technology is constantly improving. EV performance is already much better than at the beginning, and new materials are showing good promise. A brief search of google and Youtube gives a plethora of new avenues that are starting to pan out. Examples are:

    Carbon Nanotube Electrodes
    Organosilicon electrolyte batteries
    lithium sulfur
    sodium batteries
    Graphene batteries

    The top 10 EV battery manufacturers by market share are all headquartered
    in Asia:

    Rank Company 2021 Market Share Country
    #1 CATL 32.5% China
    #2 LG Energy Solution 21.5% Korea
    #3 Panasonic 14.7% Japan
    #4 BYD 6.9% China
    #5 Samsung SDI 5.4% Korea
    #6 SK Innovation 5.1% Korea
    #7 CALB 2.7% China
    #8 AESC 2.0% Japan
    #9 Guoxuan 2.0% China
    #10 PEVE 1.3% Japan
    n/a Other 6.1%

    With ICE being phased out and the emphasis on EV, the competition to
    develop improved battery technology is fierce.

    Next-generation battery technologies are already being developed by U.S. companies, including Ionic Materials, QuantumScape, Sila Nanotechnologies,
    Sion Power, and Sionic Energy.

    The results are already apparent. CATL released its first-gen sodium-ion battery in July, 2021. Its single-cell energy density can reach 160Wh/Kg
    with very fast charge times.

    EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can expect
    to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor, integrated
    circuit, internet, etc.



    --
    MRM

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Thu May 19 19:38:47 2022
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:53:36 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile>> devices have the lifespan
    they do.>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.
    I don't think anybody misses running "portable" electronics off lead acid batteries.

    NIMh was a step up, but the energy density of the lithium stuff is ever better. Cordless power tools that work as good or better than corded ones
    is reality these days.

    Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years. Things we have now like RC drones are just not possible with lead acid or nickel cadmium batteries, unless a 3 minute flight time is long enough.

    Like most things, advancements in technology are strongly correlated to the amount of money that is involved in the marketing and sales of the items enabled by that technology. With literally trillions of dollars being at stake, you will see enormous
    advancements in EV batteries over the next five and ten years, and probably onward.

    I'm just hoping they will make some available as retrofits.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Piotr Wyderski on Fri May 20 16:15:18 2022
    Piotr Wyderski <bombald@protonmail.com> wrote:
    Cydrome Leader wrote:

    Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years.

    Indeed. I don't think that lead-acid batteries could do this trick:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

    Best regards, Piotr

    Isn't every vehicle in france on fire?

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri May 20 20:27:39 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
    Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded)
    of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
    in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>>
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a
    little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
    Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

    Cheers

    [...]

    EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can
    expect to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor,
    integrated circuit, internet, etc.

    It looks like this might be an excellent field to get into, if you
    understand electronics. Excellent growth prospects, assured future, high demand, especially if you can also program. Another field would be Thorium Molten Salt, but that needs a bit more time to mature.

    Of course, skip Fusion.




    --
    MRM

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Fri May 20 23:40:36 2022
    On 2022-05-20 18:15, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Piotr Wyderski <bombald@protonmail.com> wrote:
    Cydrome Leader wrote:

    Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years.

    Indeed. I don't think that lead-acid batteries could do this trick:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

    Best regards, Piotr

    Isn't every vehicle in france on fire?


    Nope, none that I can see,

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri May 20 14:41:45 2022
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

    Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
    Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) >>> of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
    in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>>
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a
    little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
    Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

    Cheers
    [...]
    EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can
    expect to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor, integrated circuit, internet, etc.
    It looks like this might be an excellent field to get into, if you
    understand electronics. Excellent growth prospects, assured future, high demand, especially if you can also program. Another field would be Thorium Molten Salt, but that needs a bit more time to mature.

    Of course, skip Fusion.




    --
    MRM

    Another thing you won't hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
    https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3

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  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Fri May 20 23:36:06 2022
    On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:41:49 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

    Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, >>> Ricky wrote:

    <snip>

    Another thing you won't hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
    https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3

    Bizarre. Flyguy posts link to nonsense from the woke crowd about serious environmental effects of lithium mining, then tells us that they wouldn't tell us about them.

    All kinds of mineral extraction do make some kind of mess, but the mining companies can be persuaded to spend some of the money they make from selling the useful part of what they dig up on tidying up after them. We've been mining stuff since stone age,
    and we've gotten better at making miners clean up after themselves. Flyguy is an ignorant idiot, so he hasn't noticed.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From keith@kjwdesigns.com@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Sat May 21 14:49:52 2022
    On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 14:41:49 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

    Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
    Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) >>> of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries >>> in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>>
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can't you give us a >>> little summary? We don't all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
    Belleman

    Snip
    7. Batteries are getting better

    That's sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

    Cheers
    [...]
    EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can expect to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor, integrated circuit, internet, etc.
    It looks like this might be an excellent field to get into, if you understand electronics. Excellent growth prospects, assured future, high demand, especially if you can also program. Another field would be Thorium Molten Salt, but that needs a bit more time to mature.

    Of course, skip Fusion.




    --
    MRM
    Another thing you won't hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
    https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3

    But so is oil production bad - and a conventional car needs to be provided with fuel for its entire life, not just once.

    kw

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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Sat May 21 17:57:34 2022
    On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:53:36 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:

    7. Batteries are getting better

    NIMh was a step up, but the energy density of the lithium stuff is ever better. Cordless power tools that work as good or better than corded ones
    is reality these days.

    Alas, us homeowner occasional users are better off with the corded ones
    for (1) always-ready without prior attention to charging, (2) availability of spares in ten years when this battery is not charging, (3) availability
    on both new and used market, (4) bench space to park chargers.

    I've got two-sub-C NiCd battery items, that probably won't ever get
    new cells (though it might be worthwhile to rebuild 'em with a Lithium 18650 socket).

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  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Sat May 21 21:04:48 2022
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:36:10 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:41:49 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

    Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, >>> Ricky wrote:
    <snip>
    Another thing you won't hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
    https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3
    Bizarre. Flyguy posts link to nonsense from the woke crowd about serious environmental effects of lithium mining, then tells us that they wouldn't tell us about them.

    All kinds of mineral extraction do make some kind of mess, but the mining companies can be persuaded to spend some of the money they make from selling the useful part of what they dig up on tidying up after them. We've been mining stuff since stone age,
    and we've gotten better at making miners clean up after themselves. Flyguy is an ignorant idiot, so he hasn't noticed.

    --
    SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

    Hey SNIPPERMAN, did you actually READ the reference? I truly doubt it, being the moron that you are. You didn't dispute a SINGLE thing in that reference, not the amount of water required or the environmental damage that is being created. Are you a TOTAL
    IDIOT? I would say so.

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  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Sun May 22 01:12:05 2022
    On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:04:53 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:36:10 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:41:49 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
    Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
    Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
    Ricky wrote:
    <snip>
    Another thing you won't hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
    https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3
    Bizarre. Flyguy posts link to nonsense from the woke crowd about serious environmental effects of lithium mining, then tells us that they wouldn't tell us about them.

    All kinds of mineral extraction do make some kind of mess, but the mining companies can be persuaded to spend some of the money they make from selling the useful part of what they dig up on tidying up after them. We've been mining stuff since stone
    age, and we've gotten better at making miners clean up after themselves. Flyguy is an ignorant idiot, so he hasn't noticed.

    Hey Sloman, did you actually READ the reference? I truly doubt it, being the moron that you are. You didn't dispute a SINGLE thing in that reference, not the amount of water required or the environmental damage that is being created. Are you a TOTAL
    IDIOT? I would say so.

    Of course you would. I characterised it as nonsense from the woke crowd after I read enough of it to work out what it was.

    There's not a lot of point criticising environmentalist propaganda from the woke crowd. Their numbers never mean what they think they mean, and they are just as wedded to their idiotic misconceptions as you are.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From John S@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 29 20:16:18 2022
    On 5/19/2022 10:10 AM, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw


    Get a Tesla.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to John S on Mon May 30 07:30:17 2022
    On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:16:27 PM UTC-4, John S wrote:
    On 5/19/2022 10:10 AM, Ricky wrote:
    Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile devices have the lifespan they do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

    Get a Tesla.

    Kinda slow on the uptake, no?

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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