• How much current to kill an insect?

    From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 13:44:03 2022
    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 16:31:25 2022
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
    swoops and bites...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Fri May 6 16:52:14 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 16:31:25 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    I'm not familiar with electrostatic voltmeters. I bought it as an antique and was surprised it works. A normal voltmeter draws current does it not?

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she swoops and bites...

    It's amusing when the spider goes to get them and gets zapped too.

    Anyway I'm going to go with power, 5W. That's enough heat to fry an insect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Fri May 6 09:06:28 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri May 6 17:40:45 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Fri May 6 11:43:52 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.

    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.


    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.




    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 12:02:11 2022
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 12:16:10 2022
    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
    power transformer.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    The human threshold has to do with heart-stoppage; the insect lethality
    is more about heating ( boiling temperature rather than fever).
    You can't bollix the circulatory system of an insect, because it's
    mainly just diffusion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Fri May 6 16:43:06 2022
    John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation. I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John


    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
    mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 21:59:43 2022
    In article <op.1lq7pcwlmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 16:31:25 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    I'm not familiar with electrostatic voltmeters. I bought it as an antique and was surprised it works. A normal voltmeter draws current does it not?

    From what I remember of the one we had in our physics department at
    college they measure the electrostatic attraction between a pair (or
    multiple pairs) of plates connected to the input. So the whole thing is
    a capacitor of variable value, because the plates move in relation to
    each other. Thus the only current flow should be that needed to charge
    up that capacitor. (Unless there is leakage.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 23:01:06 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 19:43:52 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.

    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    I used a screwdriver. It's a cap, and a tiny transformer with a transistor and some passives. I guess it discharges through the safety resistors very quickly, which means there won't be much jolt in it for the insect.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    It's a proper insectocutor (the biggest well known make). How can it be a fire hazard when it's contained?

    It's great fun to watch a wasp getting fried. It fucking stinks though.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to jrwalliker@gmail.com on Fri May 6 14:59:27 2022
    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:02:11 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
    <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the >insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation. >I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John

    I'd rather a mosquito go POP 10 feet away, than it being smooshed
    against my arm after it bit me.

    The bug zapper schematics that I can google are mostly a tiny blocking oscillator driving a step-up flyback into a capacitor. Must be
    milliwatts into the cap.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Fri May 6 23:02:40 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation. I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John

    That would be why the decent one I have fries them gently, while the cheap Chinese USB one uses a capacitor.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Fri May 6 23:05:16 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 21:59:43 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lq7pcwlmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 16:31:25 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB
    one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    I'm not familiar with electrostatic voltmeters. I bought it as an antique and was surprised it works. A normal voltmeter draws current does it not?

    From what I remember of the one we had in our physics department at
    college they measure the electrostatic attraction between a pair (or
    multiple pairs) of plates connected to the input. So the whole thing is
    a capacitor of variable value, because the plates move in relation to
    each other. Thus the only current flow should be that needed to charge
    up that capacitor. (Unless there is leakage.)

    Why are they no longer made like that? Digital ones use a fair amount of current which is annoying in some circuits.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Fri May 6 23:03:09 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 21:43:06 +0100, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the
    insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John


    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
    mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    The insect when not killed is presumably spreading that bacteria on food anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 15:07:32 2022
    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
    power transformer.


    Any 60 Hz transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
    coupling and potting make them huger.

    The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
    frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.

    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
    have weighed 20 pounds.

    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 23:54:15 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
    power transformer.

    Any 60 Hz

    50, I live in the modern world.

    transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
    coupling and potting make them huger.

    Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches.

    The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
    frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.

    The light output or the circuit looked nicer?

    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
    have weighed 20 pounds.

    How many friends did you torture with it?

    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.

    Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was
    unharmed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 23:50:52 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 22:59:27 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:02:11 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
    <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the
    insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John

    I'd rather a mosquito go POP 10 feet away, than it being smooshed
    against my arm after it bit me.

    The bug zapper schematics that I can google are mostly a tiny blocking oscillator driving a step-up flyback into a capacitor. Must be
    milliwatts into the cap.

    Mine gets warm. I'm guessing it uses a lot of the 5W rating all the time. I can send a photo of the circuit if you want.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 16:12:18 2022
    l√łrdag den 7. maj 2022 kl. 00.54.24 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
    power transformer.

    Any 60 Hz
    50, I live in the modern world.
    transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
    coupling and potting make them huger.
    Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches.
    The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.
    The light output or the circuit looked nicer?
    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must have weighed 20 pounds.
    How many friends did you torture with it?
    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.
    Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was
    unharmed.


    and ignition coil is a few 100 mJ, a defibrillator is 1000x that

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Fri May 6 16:56:42 2022
    On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the
    insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John


    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
    mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Speak for yourself. Where I grew up, the mosquitoes were as big as
    chickens.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat May 7 00:58:20 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:56:42 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the >>> insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed >>> over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John


    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
    mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Speak for yourself. Where I grew up, the mosquitoes were as big as
    chickens.

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Sat May 7 00:57:49 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:12:18 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    lÝrdag den 7. maj 2022 kl. 00.54.24 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
    power transformer.

    Any 60 Hz
    50, I live in the modern world.
    transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
    coupling and potting make them huger.
    Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches. >> > The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
    frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.
    The light output or the circuit looked nicer?
    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
    have weighed 20 pounds.
    How many friends did you torture with it?
    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.
    Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was
    unharmed.


    and ignition coil is a few 100 mJ, a defibrillator is 1000x that

    So the time counts aswell as the current? For circuit breakers, they tend to say keep it below 80mA and nobody will die.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri May 6 20:48:53 2022
    Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100,
    <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes
    2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured
    those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I
    haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm
    wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required
    to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through
    the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires
    evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a
    milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
    the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states
    1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
    unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
    1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
    voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly,
    I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected
    to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect.† This is no longer considered a good idea because if the
    insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area.† It is much better just to cook them without
    fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I
    can find it.
    John

    That would be why the decent one I have fries them gently, while the
    cheap Chinese USB one uses a capacitor.

    Mine give a nice satisfying 120-hertz-plus-harmonics bzzzaaappp. "Die,
    mozzie scum!" ;)

    They also have mushroom oil (octenol) pads on the bottom.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Fri May 6 17:29:19 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:58:20 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:56:42 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito. >>>>>
    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor >>>> into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the >>>> insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed >>>> over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John


    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
    mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Speak for yourself. Where I grew up, the mosquitoes were as big as
    chickens.

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    We hunted them with shotguns.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 20:50:55 2022
    John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the >>> insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed >>> over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John


    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
    mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    Speak for yourself. Where I grew up, the mosquitoes were as big as
    chickens.

    Yeah, but that's because the chickens weighed 5 milligrams too. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Sat May 7 01:41:08 2022
    John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote in news:e03541ea-d7d2-417a-a8af-0eef526f9432n@googlegroups.com:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100,
    <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which
    makes 200
    0V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured
    those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I
    haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and
    I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is
    required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a
    human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the
    death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could
    connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't
    want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with.
    The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives
    out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn
    it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which
    may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0
    instantly, I do
    ubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly
    connected to
    the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a
    mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a
    capacitor into the insect. This is no longer considered a good
    idea because if the insect explodes too violently the
    bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed over a wide area. It is
    much better just to cook them without fragmentation. I did once
    come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find
    it. John

    Bug zappers had no caps. They discharged into bugs because bug
    completed the path for the HV potential which was sitting on the
    rails. The zap sound is because the bug made a momentary complete
    circuit for the voltage to arc across the gap... through the bug.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat May 7 01:27:37 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:epha7h51vj4dlf31dhoui1tvt7di4qoem1@4ax.com:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes
    2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have
    measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying
    wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action
    yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much
    current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to
    kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects
    the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I
    could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I
    don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start
    with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives
    out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn
    it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which
    may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    It is the fact that an arc went through the insect. It does not
    matter how much juice. ANY amount capable of arcing through the
    'flesh' of the insect is enough to 'zap' it. If it is generated, not electrostatic,it is enough. even a static zap kills them if they are
    part of the path.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Fri May 6 19:46:05 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:54:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
    power transformer.

    Any 60 Hz

    50, I live in the modern world.

    transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
    coupling and potting make them huger.

    Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches.

    The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
    frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.

    The light output or the circuit looked nicer?

    The light in the neon tubes looked better with 60 Hz HV AC, sharper.
    The RF ones look fake and fuzzy.


    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
    have weighed 20 pounds.

    How many friends did you torture with it?

    Darn, I clean forgot to do that.


    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.

    Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was
    unharmed.

    A car spark is roughly 50 millijoules per shot. Painful but not
    deadly.



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology. on Sat May 7 05:45:13 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 06 May 2022 15:07:32 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in <sj6b7hd88904ik2u3dibpdm167o752td4g@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal >>power transformer.


    Any 60 Hz transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose >coupling and potting make them huger.

    The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
    frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.

    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
    have weighed 20 pounds.

    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.

    I have a blue light bug killer, it is just a small voltage multiplier (small value caps)
    feeding 2 parallel wires about a few mm apart wound around a blue lightbulb. The caps discharge kills the bug (you can short the wires with a screwdriver and see the sparks).
    The small value of the caps (few hundred nF) limits the current at 50 Hz.
    Very simple thing, quite effective, was cheap.
    As usual curiosity had me open it up an look at the circuit.
    Been working fine for about years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From g_wolf@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat May 7 02:05:34 2022
    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri May 6 23:16:28 2022
    John Larkin wrote:

    ================

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.



    ** But can you kill a millipede with milliamps ?

    https://a-z-animals.com/blog/giant-african-millipede-the-pros-and-cons-of-this-exotic-pet/




    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat May 7 08:57:01 2022
    On 06/05/2022 19:43, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.

    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.


    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    They are potentially. But the safety interlocks are quite good to stop
    humans whilst still allowing flies and insects free access.

    A stately home come country house hotel was seriously damaged by an accumulation of dead flies in such a device a couple of years back.

    You can smell burning insect it it gets a particularly big moth. UV
    fluoro light trap and HT bars - looks to me like a neon driver
    transformer soa couple of mA at a fairly high voltage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-29702125

    We have them in our VH. Emptying the dead fly trays was moved up the
    important routine checks list after that fire.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    It is the heavier insects that smell the worst and sometimes catch fire.
    Wings of moths seem to be the most dodgy for that.


    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 10:41:01 2022
    In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...

    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

    It's called a noble false widow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
    but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
    spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 10:36:21 2022
    In article <op.1lrt7ibcmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    I'm waiting for a Scot to invent a small dirigible modelled on a basking
    shark crossed with a Dyson vacuum. It would patrol up and down hoovering
    up the midges into a net...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John S@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat May 7 06:23:16 2022
    On 5/6/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.

    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.


    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.


    ...if the voltage is high enough.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John S@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 06:19:37 2022
    On 5/7/2022 2:05 AM, g_wolf wrote:
    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart.  I could connect a
    milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
    the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with.  The USB one states
    1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
    unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
    1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
    voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
    swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda  spider you got. :-)


    Wolf spider?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John S@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat May 7 06:21:46 2022
    On 5/6/2022 11:06 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.


    Sure. Try killing a spider with 1J at 1V.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John S@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Sat May 7 06:24:43 2022
    On 5/6/2022 2:02 PM, John Walliker wrote:
    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in
    action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
    over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation. I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
    John

    Oh, pretty please. It would be fun to read it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 14:07:52 2022
    In article <t55kki$ae$1@dont-email.me>, Sophi.2@invalid.org says...

    On 5/7/2022 2:05 AM, g_wolf wrote:
    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart.† I could connect a
    milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
    the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with.† The USB one states
    1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
    unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
    1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
    voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she >> swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda† spider you got. :-)


    Wolf spider?

    No. But in season I know where to find Wasp Spiders. But I don't take
    them home!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 07:32:27 2022
    On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>
    wrote:

    In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...

    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
    not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she >> > swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

    It's called a noble false widow >(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
    but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
    spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

    I wonder what this is:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1

    We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.




    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat May 7 17:38:13 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 01:29:19 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:58:20 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:56:42 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total >>>> mass is a few milligrams?

    Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Speak for yourself. Where I grew up, the mosquitoes were as big as
    chickens.

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    We hunted them with shotguns.

    https://youtu.be/BHBbJAIcnBI

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Sat May 7 17:39:22 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 01:48:53 +0100, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100,
    <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes
    2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured
    those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I
    haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm
    wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required
    to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through
    the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires
    evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a
    milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
    the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states
    1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
    unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
    1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
    voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly,
    I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected
    to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

    These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
    into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the >>> insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed >>> over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without
    fragmentation.
    I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I
    can find it.
    John

    That would be why the decent one I have fries them gently, while the
    cheap Chinese USB one uses a capacitor.

    Mine give a nice satisfying 120-hertz-plus-harmonics bzzzaaappp.

    Girly high frequency. We have the more masculine 100 Hz.

    "Die, mozzie scum!" ;)

    They also have mushroom oil (octenol) pads on the bottom.

    What? The mosquitoes or the zapper?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sat May 7 17:42:11 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 08:57:01 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 06/05/2022 19:43, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB
    one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.

    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.


    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    They are potentially. But the safety interlocks are quite good to stop
    humans whilst still allowing flies and insects free access.

    A stately home come country house hotel was seriously damaged by an accumulation of dead flies in such a device a couple of years back.

    You can smell burning insect it it gets a particularly big moth. UV
    fluoro light trap and HT bars - looks to me like a neon driver
    transformer soa couple of mA at a fairly high voltage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-29702125

    We have them in our VH. Emptying the dead fly trays was moved up the important routine checks list after that fire.

    I empty mine twice a year, whether it needs it or not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat May 7 17:40:58 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 03:46:05 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:54:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    [about a bug zapper]

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
    in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal >>>> power transformer.

    Any 60 Hz

    50, I live in the modern world.

    transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
    coupling and potting make them huger.

    Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches.

    The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
    frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.

    The light output or the circuit looked nicer?

    The light in the neon tubes looked better with 60 Hz HV AC, sharper.
    The RF ones look fake and fuzzy.

    I hate flicker. In the days of CRTs, I always chose 90Hz ones.

    When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
    transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
    have weighed 20 pounds.

    How many friends did you torture with it?

    Darn, I clean forgot to do that.

    How absurd.

    The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
    from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.

    Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was
    unharmed.

    A car spark is roughly 50 millijoules per shot. Painful but not
    deadly.

    What about if you grabbed it for some time?

    What if an evil friend revved the engine up?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat May 7 17:46:44 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 10:36:21 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lrt7ibcmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    I'm waiting for a Scot to invent a small dirigible modelled on a basking shark crossed with a Dyson vacuum. It would patrol up and down hoovering
    up the midges into a net...

    ROFL! Actually there have been many attempts to cull mosquitoes, or midges, can't remember which, in Scotland. Can't find a link since those sort of searches are flooded out with how to stop them getting you on holiday.

    I have the answer. Lifesystems Expedition 100+ - a spray you put on your bare flesh. Nothing will land on you. Even works on horses - I recommended it to a horser around here and she tried it! Keeps the flies off them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John S on Sat May 7 17:47:10 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 12:21:46 +0100, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

    On 5/6/2022 11:06 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.


    Sure. Try killing a spider with 1J at 1V.

    Where did 1V come from?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat May 7 17:48:34 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 15:32:27 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>
    wrote:

    In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...

    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge, >>> > not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she >>> > swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

    It's called a noble false widow
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
    but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
    spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

    I wonder what this is:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1

    We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.

    I kill the insects to starve the spiders.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat May 7 18:09:36 2022
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.

    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat May 7 11:01:35 2022
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one
    in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping
    the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to
    100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.
    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?

    So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 19:35:50 2022
    In article <ck0d7hd163ukc16cqrasdq0jnl5sqnipvd@4ax.com>, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com says...

    I wonder what this is:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1

    We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.

    Certainly a spider! The shape of many. Not that I'm an expert in any
    case...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 19:41:31 2022
    In article <op.1ls4y8e1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 15:32:27 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...

    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge, >>> > not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
    swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

    It's called a noble false widow
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
    but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
    spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

    I wonder what this is:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1

    We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.

    I kill the insects to starve the spiders.

    Did you read the wikipedia article about "my" spider and their ability
    to bite people? Better to keep them well fed, methinks...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 19:39:10 2022
    In article <op.1ls4v6yxmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 10:36:21 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lrt7ibcmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    I'm waiting for a Scot to invent a small dirigible modelled on a basking shark crossed with a Dyson vacuum. It would patrol up and down hoovering
    up the midges into a net...

    ROFL! Actually there have been many attempts to cull mosquitoes, or midges, can't remember which, in Scotland. Can't find a link since those sort of searches are flooded out with how to stop them getting you on holiday.

    I have the answer. Lifesystems Expedition 100+ - a spray you put on your bare flesh. Nothing will land on you. Even works on horses - I recommended it to a horser around here and she tried it! Keeps the flies off them.

    Oh, I thought for a moment you were referring to one of those winged
    horses...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sat May 7 19:45:00 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB
    one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.
    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?

    mA, I was obviously talking about the earth leakage variety. The 30A/50A ones are overload breakers to stop fires when you melt wires.

    So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.

    That should be able to kill you, but it has to pass through your heart, and you need a weak heart.

    What battery is 200V and 3A?!

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?

    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat May 7 19:45:45 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:39:10 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1ls4v6yxmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 10:36:21 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1lrt7ibcmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

    I'm waiting for a Scot to invent a small dirigible modelled on a basking >> > shark crossed with a Dyson vacuum. It would patrol up and down hoovering >> > up the midges into a net...

    ROFL! Actually there have been many attempts to cull mosquitoes, or midges, can't remember which, in Scotland. Can't find a link since those sort of searches are flooded out with how to stop them getting you on holiday.

    I have the answer. Lifesystems Expedition 100+ - a spray you put on your bare flesh. Nothing will land on you. Even works on horses - I recommended it to a horser around here and she tried it! Keeps the flies off them.

    Oh, I thought for a moment you were referring to one of those winged horses...

    Yes, I have a severe problem with looking very much like a horse runway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat May 7 19:46:25 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:41:31 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

    In article <op.1ls4y8e1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...

    On Sat, 07 May 2022 15:32:27 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>
    wrote:

    In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...

    On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
    requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
    continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge, >> >>> > not a current.

    BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
    offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
    swoops and bites...

    Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

    It's called a noble false widow
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
    but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
    spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

    I wonder what this is:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1

    We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.

    I kill the insects to starve the spiders.

    Did you read the wikipedia article about "my" spider and their ability
    to bite people? Better to keep them well fed, methinks...

    Shoe beats spider.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat May 7 11:56:42 2022
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB
    one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.
    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?
    mA, I was obviously talking about the earth leakage variety. The 30A/50A ones are overload breakers to stop fires when you melt wires.

    OK, GFCI.

    So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.
    That should be able to kill you, but it has to pass through your heart, and you need a weak heart.

    I try to be careful to touch it with only one hand.

    What battery is 200V and 3A?!

    Half of a 400V battery, fused to 3A. Slow charging into 400V 66Ah.

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sat May 7 22:35:15 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB
    one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.
    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?
    mA, I was obviously talking about the earth leakage variety. The 30A/50A ones are overload breakers to stop fires when you melt wires.

    OK, GFCI.

    Yeah if you want to call it that weird name. Let's change earth to ground, leakage to fault, and breaker to interrupter. It's sure to sell more to gullible folk.

    So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.
    That should be able to kill you, but it has to pass through your heart, and you need a weak heart.

    I try to be careful to touch it with only one hand.

    Then you get a warm hand, no big deal. I've done that with 240V mains (no not the pansy 120V USA shit).

    What battery is 200V and 3A?!

    Half of a 400V battery, fused to 3A. Slow charging into 400V 66Ah.

    What is this used for? I've never heard of such high voltage batteries.

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.

    Use an inverter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sat May 7 23:04:39 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 22:47:06 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the
    USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.
    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?
    mA, I was obviously talking about the earth leakage variety. The 30A/50A ones are overload breakers to stop fires when you melt wires.

    OK, GFCI.
    Yeah if you want to call it that weird name. Let's change earth to ground, leakage to fault, and breaker to interrupter. It's sure to sell more to gullible folk.

    Everybody know it by that name here.

    Yeah well America isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. You call live hot!

    So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.
    That should be able to kill you, but it has to pass through your heart, and you need a weak heart.

    I try to be careful to touch it with only one hand.
    Then you get a warm hand, no big deal. I've done that with 240V mains (no not the pansy 120V USA shit).
    What battery is 200V and 3A?!

    Half of a 400V battery, fused to 3A. Slow charging into 400V 66Ah.
    What is this used for? I've never heard of such high voltage batteries.

    It's custom build.

    For what purpose?

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.
    Use an inverter.

    It's more efficient that way. The batteries are charged off the vehicle, and load/unload in parallel with the main, without the need to charge/discharge the energy from the main. It would also keep the main batteries cooler, which is a real problem
    with repeated fast charging.

    Ah, an electric car? But could someone not steal the batteries from there?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat May 7 14:47:06 2022
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the
    USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just
    stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it
    drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).

    It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.

    The cap charging current is likely microamps.

    Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
    It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
    threshold of death.
    Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

    Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?
    mA, I was obviously talking about the earth leakage variety. The 30A/50A ones are overload breakers to stop fires when you melt wires.

    OK, GFCI.
    Yeah if you want to call it that weird name. Let's change earth to ground, leakage to fault, and breaker to interrupter. It's sure to sell more to gullible folk.

    Everybody know it by that name here.

    So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.
    That should be able to kill you, but it has to pass through your heart, and you need a weak heart.

    I try to be careful to touch it with only one hand.
    Then you get a warm hand, no big deal. I've done that with 240V mains (no not the pansy 120V USA shit).
    What battery is 200V and 3A?!

    Half of a 400V battery, fused to 3A. Slow charging into 400V 66Ah.
    What is this used for? I've never heard of such high voltage batteries.

    It's custom build.

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.
    Use an inverter.

    It's more efficient that way. The batteries are charged off the vehicle, and load/unload in parallel with the main, without the need to charge/discharge the energy from the main. It would also keep the main batteries cooler, which is a real problem
    with repeated fast charging.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sun May 8 00:24:47 2022
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 23:29:58 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 3:04:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 22:47:06 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.
    Use an inverter.

    It's more efficient that way. The batteries are charged off the vehicle, and load/unload in parallel with the main, without the need to charge/discharge the energy from the main. It would also keep the main batteries cooler, which is a real problem
    with repeated fast charging.
    Ah, an electric car? But could someone not steal the batteries from there?

    Only if they know what's inside. The doors are internally double locked. The windows are unbreakable lexan. The back (with the battery) is physically isolated from the front. I'll probably change the left rear window to metal with loading tubes.

    There were several break-in attempts, but i have not lose much stuffs except for the first time.

    Is this a car or a tank?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat May 7 17:08:19 2022
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 4:24:56 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 23:29:58 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 3:04:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 22:47:06 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.
    Use an inverter.

    It's more efficient that way. The batteries are charged off the vehicle, and load/unload in parallel with the main, without the need to charge/discharge the energy from the main. It would also keep the main batteries cooler, which is a real
    problem with repeated fast charging.
    Ah, an electric car? But could someone not steal the batteries from there?

    Only if they know what's inside. The doors are internally double locked. The windows are unbreakable lexan. The back (with the battery) is physically isolated from the front. I'll probably change the left rear window to metal with loading tubes.

    There were several break-in attempts, but i have not lose much stuffs except for the first time.
    Is this a car or a tank?

    Urban tank that looks like a car.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun May 8 02:02:49 2022
    On 5/7/2022 12:42 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected
    to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    They are potentially. But the safety interlocks are quite good to stop
    humans whilst still allowing flies and insects free access.

    A stately home come country house hotel was seriously damaged by an
    accumulation of dead flies in such a device a couple of years back.

    You can smell burning insect it it gets a particularly big moth. UV
    fluoro light trap and HT bars - looks to me like a neon driver
    transformer soa  couple of mA at a fairly high voltage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-29702125

    We have them in our VH. Emptying the dead fly trays was moved up the
    important routine checks list after that fire.

    I empty mine twice a year, whether it needs it or not.

    BTW Dr. Frankenstein most states often have animal cruelty laws that if interpreted from an "originalist" POV apply even to insects.

    That is to say you can vaporize an insect or let it go but if you hook
    USB probes up to them while administering shocks on the regular someone
    may at some point want to see a license for that, lol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sun May 8 11:55:45 2022
    On Sun, 08 May 2022 07:02:49 +0100, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 5/7/2022 12:42 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected >>>>> to the rails.

    That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

    They are potentially. But the safety interlocks are quite good to stop
    humans whilst still allowing flies and insects free access.

    A stately home come country house hotel was seriously damaged by an
    accumulation of dead flies in such a device a couple of years back.

    You can smell burning insect it it gets a particularly big moth. UV
    fluoro light trap and HT bars - looks to me like a neon driver
    transformer soa couple of mA at a fairly high voltage.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-29702125

    We have them in our VH. Emptying the dead fly trays was moved up the
    important routine checks list after that fire.

    I empty mine twice a year, whether it needs it or not.

    BTW Dr. Frankenstein most states often have animal cruelty laws that if interpreted from an "originalist" POV apply even to insects.

    That is to say you can vaporize an insect or let it go but if you hook
    USB probes up to them while administering shocks on the regular someone
    may at some point want to see a license for that, lol

    Same bullshit here in the UK. It's legal to kill mice and rats with poison that dehydrates them slowly and painfully over 3 days. But do the same by using a human trap and not letting them go, which has the same effect, gets you a visit from a moany
    animal cruelty person.

    In Australia on an episode of reality TV, they were feeding kangeroo anus to the contestants, but when one dared to kill a rat in a non-humane way, that was somehow wrong? They can't tell the difference in intelligence between a rat (disease carrying
    vermin) and a kangeroo (national emblem).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sun May 8 11:56:15 2022
    On Sun, 08 May 2022 01:08:19 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 4:24:56 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 23:29:58 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 3:04:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 22:47:06 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.
    Use an inverter.

    It's more efficient that way. The batteries are charged off the vehicle, and load/unload in parallel with the main, without the need to charge/discharge the energy from the main. It would also keep the main batteries cooler, which is a real
    problem with repeated fast charging.
    Ah, an electric car? But could someone not steal the batteries from there?

    Only if they know what's inside. The doors are internally double locked. The windows are unbreakable lexan. The back (with the battery) is physically isolated from the front. I'll probably change the left rear window to metal with loading tubes.

    There were several break-in attempts, but i have not lose much stuffs except for the first time.
    Is this a car or a tank?

    Urban tank that looks like a car.

    Ah, so what yanks call a truck. Just a car. A truck weighs 50 tonnes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun May 8 06:56:32 2022
    On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 3:56:23 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 08 May 2022 01:08:19 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 4:24:56 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 23:29:58 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 3:04:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Sat, 07 May 2022 22:47:06 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:35:26 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:56:42 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:45:21 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 07 May 2022 19:01:35 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire.

    How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?
    To stop a car theif, use kV.

    To drive the car too. 200V is much safer to carry it around.
    Use an inverter.

    It's more efficient that way. The batteries are charged off the vehicle, and load/unload in parallel with the main, without the need to charge/discharge the energy from the main. It would also keep the main batteries cooler, which is a real
    problem with repeated fast charging.
    Ah, an electric car? But could someone not steal the batteries from there?

    Only if they know what's inside. The doors are internally double locked. The windows are unbreakable lexan. The back (with the battery) is physically isolated from the front. I'll probably change the left rear window to metal with loading tubes.

    There were several break-in attempts, but i have not lose much stuffs except for the first time.
    Is this a car or a tank?

    Urban tank that looks like a car.
    Ah, so what yanks call a truck. Just a car. A truck weighs 50 tonnes.

    Yes, weight is always a concern. Currently, i am using a 3"x1/2"x28" center wood frame. Two 2"x1/8"x24" acrylic plastic for mounting the terminal sharpnels. Two pieces back to back for around 3 pounds of weight. 48x 18650s add around 6 pounds.
    Perhaps aluminium outer shell casting for 3 to 4 pounds. It's roughly half the size and shape of a Javelin.

    I haven't got to the loading unit yet, but i envision a 2 pins plug/socket with a center screw plunger/lock to retrieve/expunge the shell. So, the shell cannot be removed without the right access code. Also, the loading window will be aluminium, since
    i don't need to see through the window behind the driver seat.

    Just received the security torx bit for the OBC (On Board Charger) where i can open it up and tap into the output capacitor. Also ordered some NTC surge protectors to protect it when the main power relay turns on and off. Eventually, it might be better
    to just tie into the main behind the relay, but i would have to remove and open up the main battery. The OBC is inside the passenger cabin where the back seats were.

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