• Analog screwed up their website

    From Uwe Bonnes@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 25 08:57:10 2022
    Hello,

    I visit webpages using firefox and noscript. Recent changes by Analog
    now display every page with a page filling "X" and "Q" on top.
    Probably the remainders of no-script hindering the webpage to open the
    "allow us to f*ck with your data" questions.

    Annoying...
    --
    Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

    Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
    --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 ---------

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.d on Mon Apr 25 09:19:56 2022
    On a sunny day (25 Apr 2022 08:57:10 GMT) it happened Uwe Bonnes <bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in <jcn636F643gU1@mid.individual.net>:

    Hello,

    I visit webpages using firefox and noscript. Recent changes by Analog
    now display every page with a page filling "X" and "Q" on top.
    Probably the remainders of no-script hindering the webpage to open the
    "allow us to f*ck with your data" questions.

    Annoying...

    Same problem here with seamonkey, either complains about old certificates
    or just gives an error on some sites, or displays nothing usable.
    I now use chromium... (on a raspberry, or on the laptop via ssh from an other raspberry).

    html used to be a nice system, once started writing a html option
    for my newsreader and started thinking about writing a web browser
    after I got some thing up and running the standard had changed, they have been changing
    standards and adding useless stuff ever since. Java did not make it any better, Not for the user, but for the advertising..
    Modern websites made by 'we make you a website developer in 3 weeks' coders with silly tools.
    User tracking..
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons.
    drums in the wild
    on the reality side sending some microSD cards with X TB data with a drone is already now faster and cheaper.
    Drones are the future :-)
    Recently however you need a license for drones here, and here I cannot fly close to the mil airport that will be nuked
    by Russia soon if I did read it right,
    https://www.rt.com/russia/554278-threat-nuclear-danger-ukraine/

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Uwe Bonnes on Mon Apr 25 09:18:06 2022
    Uwe Bonnes <bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:

    noscript

    Are you sure you want to be running noscript? How about Adblock Plus?

    https://blog.adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users

    --
    MRM

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Mon Apr 25 11:04:25 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s
    all over again.


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    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 25 12:19:11 2022
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (25 Apr 2022 08:57:10 GMT) it happened Uwe Bonnes <bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in <jcn636F643gU1@mid.individual.net>:

    Hello,

    I visit webpages using firefox and noscript. Recent changes by Analog
    now display every page with a page filling "X" and "Q" on top.
    Probably the remainders of no-script hindering the webpage to open the
    "allow us to f*ck with your data" questions.

    Annoying...

    Same problem here with seamonkey, either complains about old certificates
    or just gives an error on some sites, or displays nothing usable.
    I now use chromium... (on a raspberry, or on the laptop via ssh from an other raspberry).

    html used to be a nice system, once started writing a html option
    for my newsreader and started thinking about writing a web browser
    after I got some thing up and running the standard had changed, they have been changing
    standards and adding useless stuff ever since. Java did not make it any better,
    Not for the user, but for the advertising..
    Modern websites made by 'we make you a website developer in 3 weeks' coders with silly tools.
    User tracking..
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    What a waste. Incredible.

    Even CERN's own web sites sell our souls to Google, use loads
    of cookies and JavaScript and refuse to serve contents if you
    don't accept either. Sir Tim would be horrified.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Mon Apr 25 21:01:31 2022
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s
    all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about
    how much JS.

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Uwe Bonnes on Mon Apr 25 20:50:58 2022
    On 04/25/2022 02:57 AM, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
    Hello,

    I visit webpages using firefox and noscript. Recent changes by Analog
    now display every page with a page filling "X" and "Q" on top.
    Probably the remainders of no-script hindering the webpage to open the
    "allow us to f*ck with your data" questions.

    Annoying...


    Do yourself a favor and ditch Firefox. I used it for years but the just
    aren't keeping up. I use Brave but any of the chromium based browsers
    will do including the new Edge if you're on Windows.

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Apr 26 05:01:55 2022
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/25/2022 02:57 AM, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
    Hello,

    I visit webpages using firefox and noscript. Recent changes by Analog
    now display every page with a page filling "X" and "Q" on top.
    Probably the remainders of no-script hindering the webpage to open the
    "allow us to f*ck with your data" questions.

    Annoying...


    Do yourself a favor and ditch Firefox. I used it for years but the just aren't keeping up. I use Brave but any of the chromium based browsers
    will do including the new Edge if you're on Windows.

    Firefox is far superior to Chrome, Opera, SeaMonkey, or any other browser.
    I have tried them all.

    I only use Chrome to connect to Canadian Tire, which requires Chrome to
    view products and add them to their shopping cart.

    Other than that, Chrome is a useless browser. It screws up the fonts in Youtube, and loses synchronization between video and sound. It often runs
    into 100% CPU which garbles the playback or stops it completely. I found
    many other problems which I cannot recall, but I ended up removing it from
    my computer.

    The problem the op is having is noscript. Remove it and install AdBlock
    Plus instead. (Yes, there is a version for Chrome.)

    https://adblockplus.org/




    --
    MRM

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 25 23:24:50 2022
    On 04/25/2022 11:01 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is far superior to Chrome, Opera, SeaMonkey, or any other browser.
    I have tried them all.

    Your experience differs from mine, at least for the last several years.
    I'm running Firefox 99.0.1 on my Linux box. At least it no longer locks
    the machine up but it crashes on a couple of websites I visit and at
    other odd times.

    It's been losing market share for several years. Mozilla made several
    bad decisions and hasn't been keeping up. Your problem with Canadian
    Tire is one symptom.

    It is better than Safari though. Even if you put FF on an Apple device
    it uses webkit.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Uwe Bonnes on Mon Apr 25 22:24:42 2022
    On 4/25/2022 1:57 AM, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
    Hello,

    I visit webpages using firefox and noscript. Recent changes by Analog
    now display every page with a page filling "X" and "Q" on top.
    Probably the remainders of no-script hindering the webpage to open the
    "allow us to f*ck with your data" questions.

    Assuming you mean analog.com, I run FF w/NoScript and see no problems
    viewing the ~dozen pages I randomly visited.

    W/o "analog.com" in the whitelist, there was a prompt to "Enable Javascript" but it didn't seem to hinder viewing (N.B. gstatic.com is enabled)

    When analog.com was whitelisted, a dialog asked me to accept cookies.
    (fine, they will be purged when I close the browser).

    I don't seem to be able to reproduce your problem.

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Apr 26 08:06:10 2022
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/25/2022 11:01 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is far superior to Chrome, Opera, SeaMonkey, or any other
    browser. I have tried them all.

    Your experience differs from mine, at least for the last several years.
    I'm running Firefox 99.0.1 on my Linux box. At least it no longer locks
    the machine up but it crashes on a couple of websites I visit and at
    other odd times.

    It's been losing market share for several years. Mozilla made several
    bad decisions and hasn't been keeping up. Your problem with Canadian
    Tire is one symptom.

    It is better than Safari though. Even if you put FF on an Apple device
    it uses webkit.

    I think losing market share is more due to cellphones. Apple have their
    own browser. Android has Chrome as their default browser, and few will
    take the time to switch or even know how.

    Firefox is not the only browser with problems on Canadian Tire. Seamonkey screws up even more badly. It is completely unusable. I suspect it's not
    the browser, but the way Canadian Tire writes their HTML.

    Canadian Tire has no programming expertise - you can tell by their
    requiring a particular browser (Chrome) to access their site.

    They undoubtedly hired an outfit that has no clue what they are doing, and cannot program for a broad range of browsers like other sites. So it's not Firefox or SeaMonkey - it's Canadian Tire.

    I have FF 99.0.1 and 96.0.2 running on Win7 under virtualbox. It is an extremely stable and reliable browser. I also have Chrome, but I only use
    it when I need to order from CanTire. I also have SeaMonkey running, and
    have tried Opera, Vivaldi, Pale Moon, and many others but removed them.

    Linux is a completely different operating system and probably has far
    fewer users than Windows. So it's not surprising is is far less refined. I
    also have Firefox running on Ubuntu, but it is a very old version and I
    rarely ever use it. However, it was quite reliable in the period it was
    needed.

    I don't know what to recommend for you. Google suggests

    Brave Browser
    Falkon Browser
    Google Chrome
    Midori Browser
    Mozilla Firefox
    Opera Browser
    Pale Moon
    Vivaldi Browser

    But I have never tried these on Ubuntu.






    --
    MRM

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  • From Uwe Bonnes@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Apr 26 08:31:26 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    ...
    W/o "analog.com" in the whitelist, there was a prompt to "Enable Javascript" but it didn't seem to hinder viewing (N.B. gstatic.com is enabled)

    When analog.com was whitelisted, a dialog asked me to accept cookies.
    (fine, they will be purged when I close the browser).

    I don't seem to be able to reproduce your problem.

    Today the webbpage appears in usefull style again. Perhaps they fixed it...

    --
    Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

    Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
    --------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 ---------

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Tue Apr 26 11:54:01 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/25/2022 11:01 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is far superior to Chrome, Opera, SeaMonkey, or any other
    browser. I have tried them all.

    Your experience differs from mine, at least for the last several years.
    I'm running Firefox 99.0.1 on my Linux box. At least it no longer locks
    the machine up but it crashes on a couple of websites I visit and at
    other odd times.

    Actually, I do have a suggestion. Start with the obvious. Wiggle all the
    cables and connectors, including the memory cards. You may have a poor connection, and bad crimp, or a bad cable. Load one of the other browsers
    and see if it crashes.

    I always add a bit of vaseline to my connectors before using them. This is
    an old radio engineer's trick from the 1920's. It was taught to me by the
    staff of radio station CFRB in Toronto. They used it whenever the antenna
    feed lines showed a poor SWR.

    The vaseline removes any dirt or oxide from the metal and allows a true metal-to-metal contact.




    --
    MRM

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Apr 26 10:15:22 2022
    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s
    all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about
    how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so whatever
    cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the browser (which shuts
    down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Apr 26 14:47:12 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s
    all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about
    how much JS.

    Such a shame, isn't it?

    Oh well, The Web had a good run while it lasted. At least there's still
    the rest of The Internet. :)


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    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Tue Apr 26 09:07:17 2022
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:15:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s
    all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about
    how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so whatever >cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the browser (which shuts
    down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    I keep my bookmarks in a Dropbox folder, all sorted. Firefox lets me
    drag/drop links from the address bar into my bookmarks folder.

    The browser can die and I still have the bookmarks.



    --

    Anybody can count to one.

    - Robert Widlar

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Apr 26 12:48:30 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:15:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s >>>> all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about >>> how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so whatever
    cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the browser (which shuts
    down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    I keep my bookmarks in a Dropbox folder, all sorted. Firefox lets me drag/drop links from the address bar into my bookmarks folder.

    The browser can die and I still have the bookmarks.

    I use znail.com for holding bookmarks. Party like it's 1998.


    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Tue Apr 26 11:26:34 2022
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:48:30 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:15:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s >>>>> all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come >>>> to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of >>>> it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about >>>> how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so whatever >>> cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the browser (which shuts
    down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    I keep my bookmarks in a Dropbox folder, all sorted. Firefox lets me
    drag/drop links from the address bar into my bookmarks folder.

    The browser can die and I still have the bookmarks.

    I use znail.com for holding bookmarks. Party like it's 1998.


    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I use dropbox to share files for working at home too, so the bookmark
    thing fits right in. I have some terabytes of db space. They (actually
    amazon) must buy hard drives cheap.

    If dropbox explodes or something, all the files are still on my
    various PC's.

    Firefox is mildly annoying about dragging bookmarks out to folders.
    After version upgrades, it randomly doesn't work and I have to muck an about:config setting to fix that.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Apr 26 15:16:17 2022
    John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:48:30 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:15:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons.
    [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites
    that are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which
    then load the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real
    content, and even that only if you have the very latest
    browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s
    / early '00s all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users
    have come to expect single page applications and they take
    JavaScript -- a lot of it. We're developing an Angular app
    and I don't even want to think about how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so
    whatever cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the
    browser (which shuts down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    I keep my bookmarks in a Dropbox folder, all sorted. Firefox lets
    me drag/drop links from the address bar into my bookmarks
    folder.

    The browser can die and I still have the bookmarks.

    I use znail.com for holding bookmarks. Party like it's 1998.


    I use dropbox to share files for working at home too, so the
    bookmark thing fits right in. I have some terabytes of db space. They
    (actually amazon) must buy hard drives cheap.

    If dropbox explodes or something, all the files are still on my
    various PC's.

    Yeah, I used to use DB a fair amount too. It was the auto-delete thing
    that spooked me initially--if I deleted a file by mistake, and DB
    _hadn't_ exploded, all the 'backups' disappeared as well.

    Now of course I have a bunch of NDAs and court protective orders that
    require me to take super good care of various bits of IP, so anything
    that has to be accessible to an external party (such as DB) has to be encrypted, which is a pain because it defeats incremental updating.

    Nowadays I do it semi-manually, using SSHFS or rsync by way of a socket
    port forwarded through the main firewall, with various scripts for
    various jobs. Project files are all version-controlled using git, and replicated at several sites. That way any fat-fingeredness on my part
    doesn't lead to permanent losses.

    The super-secret sauce doesn't go on github or gitlab, even in private repositories.

    Firefox is mildly annoying about dragging bookmarks out to folders.
    After version upgrades, it randomly doesn't work and I have to muck
    an about:config setting to fix that.

    I'm sufficiently fond of the disposable-VM thing that I really want to
    start with the equivalent of a clean install every time to prevent nasty
    things such as APTs, Lazarus trackers and immortal cookies.

    One of my dispVM templates has some add-ons installed, such as Noscript, Privacy Badger, a useragent switcher, and a couple of downloaders.

    The others don't--just a clean Firefox, Chromium, or torbrowser.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Tue Apr 26 13:02:17 2022
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 15:16:17 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:48:30 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:15:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons.
    [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites
    that are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which
    then load the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real
    content, and even that only if you have the very latest
    browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s
    / early '00s all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users
    have come to expect single page applications and they take
    JavaScript -- a lot of it. We're developing an Angular app
    and I don't even want to think about how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so
    whatever cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the
    browser (which shuts down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    I keep my bookmarks in a Dropbox folder, all sorted. Firefox lets
    me drag/drop links from the address bar into my bookmarks
    folder.

    The browser can die and I still have the bookmarks.

    I use znail.com for holding bookmarks. Party like it's 1998.


    I use dropbox to share files for working at home too, so the
    bookmark thing fits right in. I have some terabytes of db space. They
    (actually amazon) must buy hard drives cheap.

    If dropbox explodes or something, all the files are still on my
    various PC's.

    Yeah, I used to use DB a fair amount too. It was the auto-delete thing
    that spooked me initially--if I deleted a file by mistake, and DB
    _hadn't_ exploded, all the 'backups' disappeared as well.

    Well, yes, but theoretically old revs can be recovered. I copy my
    entire db to a real backup drive once in a while. I'm psychotic about
    backups.

    We do an entire company backup to a usb hard drive every month or so,
    and treat it as write-once, never over-written. I scatter the drives
    all over California. I add my dropbox files and photos and whatever to
    them too.

    I also have a dropbox folder for all the pictures I take, on my phone
    or a microscope or whatever. That is somewhat organized.

    I have a db folder "Public" for files linked from sed or wherever,
    non-secret stuff.



    Now of course I have a bunch of NDAs and court protective orders that
    require me to take super good care of various bits of IP, so anything
    that has to be accessible to an external party (such as DB) has to be >encrypted, which is a pain because it defeats incremental updating.

    Nowadays I do it semi-manually, using SSHFS or rsync by way of a socket
    port forwarded through the main firewall, with various scripts for
    various jobs. Project files are all version-controlled using git, and >replicated at several sites. That way any fat-fingeredness on my part >doesn't lead to permanent losses.

    The super-secret sauce doesn't go on github or gitlab, even in private >repositories.

    Firefox is mildly annoying about dragging bookmarks out to folders.
    After version upgrades, it randomly doesn't work and I have to muck
    an about:config setting to fix that.

    I'm sufficiently fond of the disposable-VM thing that I really want to
    start with the equivalent of a clean install every time to prevent nasty >things such as APTs, Lazarus trackers and immortal cookies.


    I need a good cookie manager. I see sites that add 50 tracking
    cookies.


    One of my dispVM templates has some add-ons installed, such as Noscript, >Privacy Badger, a useragent switcher, and a couple of downloaders.

    The others don't--just a clean Firefox, Chromium, or torbrowser.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs
    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Tue Apr 26 14:09:25 2022
    On 4/26/2022 7:47 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s
    all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about
    how much JS.

    Such a shame, isn't it?

    The original vision didn't address the sort of interactions that users
    (and providers) would want. So, the Web has just become a delivery
    vehicle for virtual machine applets. In that sense, it is doing an
    admirable job adjusting to constantly evolving interface demands.

    [Imagine gopher(1) trying to do all this!]

    Witness the number of cross-linked sites that most pages access just
    to "deliver" a page's content (cuz they aren't *giving* you something
    but, rather, trying to TAKE something FROM you!)

    Oh well, The Web had a good run while it lasted. At least there's still
    the rest of The Internet. :)

    The bigger "threat" is the recognition that more folks consume content
    using phones (tiny screens, piss poor user entry). It won't be long
    before we find pages that really only make sense in a phone's aspect
    ratio! (there is some skill required to build pages that can be equally accessible in a wide range of form factors, etc.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Apr 26 21:05:34 2022
    On 04/26/2022 03:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
    The bigger "threat" is the recognition that more folks consume content
    using phones (tiny screens, piss poor user entry). It won't be long
    before we find pages that really only make sense in a phone's aspect
    ratio! (there is some skill required to build pages that can be equally accessible in a wide range of form factors, etc.)

    Even 7" tablets are a challenge.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Tue Apr 26 21:39:20 2022
    On 04/26/2022 02:06 AM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is not the only browser with problems on Canadian Tire. Seamonkey screws up even more badly. It is completely unusable. I suspect it's not
    the browser, but the way Canadian Tire writes their HTML.

    Well, yeah...

    https://www.seamonkey-project.org/

    "Under the hood, SeaMonkey uses much of the same Mozilla Firefox source
    code which powers such products as Thunderbird. "

    It's what is under the hood that counts. Even Opera dropped Presto and
    started using chromium code.

    I use Brave, another child of chromium, on most of my machines. I have
    it on this box but it is an older version. Updating is problematic since
    it's OpenSUSE 13.2 from 2014. I missed leaping to Leap so at this point
    it would be a clean install. The hardware is the same vintage. I'm
    definitely in the 'if it ain't broken' camp.

    Vivaldi is an interesting one. When Opera switched from Presto they also dropped many of Opera's distinctive features upsetting the fans. Vivaldi replicates those features despite also being a chromium derivative.

    There's a whole cottage industry in cross-browser testing. Speaking as a developer rather than a user, it's a pain. One bright development was
    when MS redid Edge to use the chromium code. If there was one browser
    that was guaranteed to break whatever you were trying to do, it was IE.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Apr 26 20:59:29 2022
    On 4/26/2022 8:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 03:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
    The bigger "threat" is the recognition that more folks consume content
    using phones (tiny screens, piss poor user entry). It won't be long
    before we find pages that really only make sense in a phone's aspect
    ratio! (there is some skill required to build pages that can be equally
    accessible in a wide range of form factors, etc.)

    Even 7" tablets are a challenge.

    Long ago, I made the decision that I wanted control over presentation
    instead of flexibility in presentation. This imposes on the viewer/user
    to have a suitable "presentation device". But, makes MY job *so* much
    easier. I can concentrate on what I want to say/show instead of having
    to anticipate how many different "compromises" will be imposed in the rendering.

    E.g., I often put animations in PDFs to better illustrate some concept
    in an interactive manner. Hoping that the user can render that animation
    on their "browser" just makes more work for me. Wanna view it on an incompatible browser? Then you get a substandard document. Too bad,
    so sad.

    Likewise adding audio to a (typically) "visual" presentation. E.g.,
    to illustrate how words like "mash" are pronounced differently in
    different regions (to say something "rhymes with bash" is ambiguous)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 27 05:03:40 2022
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/26/2022 02:06 AM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is not the only browser with problems on Canadian Tire.
    Seamonkey screws up even more badly. It is completely unusable. I
    suspect it's not the browser, but the way Canadian Tire writes their
    HTML.

    Well, yeah...

    https://www.seamonkey-project.org/

    "Under the hood, SeaMonkey uses much of the same Mozilla Firefox source
    code which powers such products as Thunderbird. "

    It's what is under the hood that counts. Even Opera dropped Presto and started using chromium code.

    I use Brave, another child of chromium, on most of my machines. I have
    it on this box but it is an older version. Updating is problematic since
    it's OpenSUSE 13.2 from 2014. I missed leaping to Leap so at this point
    it would be a clean install. The hardware is the same vintage. I'm
    definitely in the 'if it ain't broken' camp.

    Vivaldi is an interesting one. When Opera switched from Presto they also dropped many of Opera's distinctive features upsetting the fans. Vivaldi replicates those features despite also being a chromium derivative.

    There's a whole cottage industry in cross-browser testing. Speaking as a developer rather than a user, it's a pain. One bright development was
    when MS redid Edge to use the chromium code. If there was one browser
    that was guaranteed to break whatever you were trying to do, it was IE.

    LOL!

    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser wrecks Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    It also does not seem to be able to use Firefox extensions, such as
    AdBlock Plus, Audio Equalizer, I Don't Care About Cookies, and Javascript Toggle On And Off. The last one is especially useful to block logon requirements on many web pages. You just click on a small icon in the
    upper righ corner of the screen. The Seamonkey version is extremely
    cumbersome:

    "Edit -> Preferences -> Advanced -> Scripts & Plug-ins -> Enable
    JavaScript for -> Navigator"

    However, it may be blocked by NoScript

    SeaMonkey might as well be a completely different browser.

    I actually never use SeaMonkey for browsing. I only need it when receiving
    an email that I must respond to that uses HTML. My regular email client is Pimmy 3.5, which is plain ASCII text only. It does not understand HTML,
    and is immune to <IFRAME> attacks.

    It also handles an unlimited number of email addresses, which I use to eliminate spam. If a site begins sending me spam, I merely delete it from
    my list of email addresses. You can generate your own list at

    http://www.e4ward.com/

    I rarely get spam anymore. I once wrote my own spam filtering program
    using Bayesian filtering, but it was simply too much work to keep up with changes in spam messages and new techniques. The combination of Pimmy and e4ward is much simpler and permanent.




    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 27 05:22:59 2022
    Forget all my rants about SeaMonkey. I just deleted it.

    I found I have another email client that handles HTML. It is Opera Mail V1.0 and is on another VirtualBox operating system. It works very well and is easy to use.

    I love VirtualBox. I simply could not survive without it.



    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to spamme@not.com on Wed Apr 27 09:27:24 2022
    On a sunny day (Wed, 27 Apr 2022 05:03:40 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote in <XnsAE86ACBC856Didtokenpost@144.76.35.252>:

    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser wrecks >Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    It also does not seem to be able to use Firefox extensions, such as
    AdBlock Plus

    FYI
    I have been running adblock plus for 10 years or more on seamonkey
    its a great browser, but no raspi version yet I know about.

    Audio Equalizer,

    Wrote my own audio equalizer:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpequ/index.html
    standalone no need for browsers



    I Don't Care About Cookies, and Javascript
    Toggle On And Off. The last one is especially useful to block logon >requirements on many web pages. You just click on a small icon in the
    upper righ corner of the screen. The Seamonkey version is extremely >cumbersome:

    "Edit -> Preferences -> Advanced -> Scripts & Plug-ins -> Enable
    JavaScript for -> Navigator"

    However, it may be blocked by NoScript

    SeaMonkey might as well be a completely different browser.

    I actually never use SeaMonkey for browsing. I only need it when receiving
    an email that I must respond to that uses HTML. My regular email client is >Pimmy 3.5, which is plain ASCII text only. It does not understand HTML,
    and is immune to <IFRAME> attacks.

    fetchmail here to get email, been using it since 1998
    together with pine to read it.


    It also handles an unlimited number of email addresses, which I use to >eliminate spam. If a site begins sending me spam, I merely delete it from
    my list of email addresses. You can generate your own list at

    http://www.e4ward.com/

    I rarely get spam anymore. I once wrote my own spam filtering program
    using Bayesian filtering, but it was simply too much work to keep up with >changes in spam messages and new techniques. The combination of Pimmy and >e4ward is much simpler and permanent.

    I like 'spam' or rather advertizing, shows my system is still working
    I have near unlimited email addresses...
    I assign every company its own, so if 'spam' comes in I know who it was
    and either unlist or warn them they have been hacked.

    It is good in tracking the bad guys too as recently shown.

    All my editing and coding is done with 'joe' text editor.

    An this is posted with NewsFleX ported to and running on a Raspberry4 8 GB. Written the code so full control :-)
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpequ/index.html
    Do any of you guys ever publish any code>?

    Chromium works OK on this very small computah too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Apr 27 09:44:20 2022
    On a sunny day (Tue, 26 Apr 2022 14:09:25 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <t49n2e$9p3$1@dont-email.me>:

    The bigger "threat" is the recognition that more folks consume content
    using phones (tiny screens, piss poor user entry). It won't be long
    before we find pages that really only make sense in a phone's aspect
    ratio! (there is some skill required to build pages that can be equally >accessible in a wide range of form factors, etc.)

    I dunno, I prefer the phone format as info in text form is mostly all you need. examples:
    https://www.ard-text.de/mobil/101
    for the news in (German)
    or
    https://www.tvguide.co.uk/mobile/channellisting.asp?ch=1243#582517827
    for Smithsonian program listing for TV

    You can always use ctlr + or ctrl - or ctrl 0 in your browser to enlarge it etc a decent browser will remember the enlargement settings for each site/.

    No ads.
    Basic HTML.
    I build my own website with basic HTML:
    panteltje.com
    No advertising and no java.

    That stuff is not normally needed, one can always make a youtube video
    if more info is needed.
    Interactive? Download and compile my code :-)

    Have a local copy of the site running on Apache server,
    I test new entries locally first, then it goes to the site.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Wed Apr 27 09:44:32 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    [...]
    Do any of you guys ever publish any code>?

    Every once in a while, when I write something that someone might find
    useful (or fun...). Granted I've been moving away from github to a
    self-hosted gitlab in the last year or two ...


    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Wed Apr 27 08:23:49 2022
    On 04/26/2022 11:03 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser wrecks Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    There's always room for creativity. Dealing with browsers is like
    playing whack-a-mole. A long discussion during our
    Monday meeting concerned cut'n'paste and the relationship between the
    browser and the Windows clipboard. FF is different to the chromium based browsers, so how to fix a FF bug without creating a further cascade of
    bugs? It's never the big things just ongoing annoyances.

    We're developing a product that has to be presentable. Canadian Tire is
    selling tools and tires, not a web application so they can be a little
    more cavalier. Their customers grumble a little and use another browser.
    Ours grumble a lot and refuse to switch. In one case it was because
    another application didn't work except with xxxxx browser.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Apr 27 08:26:28 2022
    On 04/26/2022 09:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
    n 4/26/2022 8:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 03:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
    The bigger "threat" is the recognition that more folks consume content
    using phones (tiny screens, piss poor user entry). It won't be long
    before we find pages that really only make sense in a phone's aspect
    ratio! (there is some skill required to build pages that can be equally >>> accessible in a wide range of form factors, etc.)

    Even 7" tablets are a challenge.

    Long ago, I made the decision that I wanted control over presentation
    instead of flexibility in presentation. This imposes on the viewer/user
    to have a suitable "presentation device". But, makes MY job *so* much easier. I can concentrate on what I want to say/show instead of having
    to anticipate how many different "compromises" will be imposed in the rendering.

    I can only dream about being able to do that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 27 16:49:51 2022
    On 2022-04-27 16:23, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 11:03 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser
    wrecks Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    There's always room for creativity. Dealing with browsers is like
    playing whack-a-mole. [...]

    Come on, it isn't that hard to make something that works in any
    browser. Of course, you have to avoid using all these snazzy
    features that web development package writers are so fond of.
    That shouldn't really be a problem, because most of those features
    are irritating anyway. We don't need animations, we don't want
    complete remakes of the user interface, we don't want JavaScript
    where straight HTML will do. Simple is best.

    Jeroen (I hate spinners) Belleman

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Wed Apr 27 12:55:44 2022
    On 4/27/2022 7:49 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-27 16:23, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 11:03 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser
    wrecks Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    There's always room for creativity. Dealing with browsers is like
    playing whack-a-mole. [...]

    Come on, it isn't that hard to make something that works in any
    browser. Of course, you have to avoid using all these snazzy
    features that web development package writers are so fond of.
    That shouldn't really be a problem, because most of those features
    are irritating anyway. We don't need animations, we don't want
    complete remakes of the user interface, we don't want JavaScript
    where straight HTML will do. Simple is best.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

    The problem is when "simplest" exceeds the capabilities of "straight HTML".

    You don't want to have to take a round-trip to the server each time a user changes a field/control on a page/form. So, you push that logic to the
    client side -- script. It's nice to be able to do an INTERACTIVE
    search on Digikey's site -- instead of having to make selections and
    take another trip to the server to see how those selections affect your
    NEW choices. (I suspect you'd quickly tire of having to RESUBMIT each time
    you were unhappy with the choices left to you from some previous choice made)

    The problem is that applications are trying to use the browser FOR the UI.
    And, in order to get the responsiveness that users expect/demand/require,
    that means doing local, client-side processing.

    Sadly, the automatic code generators seem to create lots of cruft just
    to get some "basic functionality" in place. (and, you wouldn't want to
    pay someone to hand-craft these sorts of VERY VISIBLE interfaces)

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 27 12:59:38 2022
    On 4/27/2022 7:26 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 09:59 PM, Don Y wrote:
    n 4/26/2022 8:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 03:09 PM, Don Y wrote:
    The bigger "threat" is the recognition that more folks consume content >>>> using phones (tiny screens, piss poor user entry). It won't be long
    before we find pages that really only make sense in a phone's aspect
    ratio! (there is some skill required to build pages that can be equally >>>> accessible in a wide range of form factors, etc.)

    Even 7" tablets are a challenge.

    Long ago, I made the decision that I wanted control over presentation
    instead of flexibility in presentation. This imposes on the viewer/user
    to have a suitable "presentation device". But, makes MY job *so* much
    easier. I can concentrate on what I want to say/show instead of having
    to anticipate how many different "compromises" will be imposed in the
    rendering.

    I can only dream about being able to do that.

    Your current dream is likely a nightmare! :>

    My goal is to convey information to the reader/viewer. As much information
    as possible in as expressive a form as possible. Note that I'm creating references, not transient "interactions".

    I figure the reader should be willing to make an effort to *consume* that information. If he wants to be lazy and opt for some ineffective mechanism, then HE should bear the cost of that poor choice.

    Good luck reading that schematic on your iPhone! Or, perusing that long, multicolumn table. :>

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Wed Apr 27 21:10:29 2022
    On 04/27/2022 08:49 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-27 16:23, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 11:03 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser
    wrecks Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    There's always room for creativity. Dealing with browsers is like
    playing whack-a-mole. [...]

    Come on, it isn't that hard to make something that works in any
    browser. Of course, you have to avoid using all these snazzy
    features that web development package writers are so fond of.
    That shouldn't really be a problem, because most of those features
    are irritating anyway. We don't need animations, we don't want
    complete remakes of the user interface, we don't want JavaScript
    where straight HTML will do. Simple is best.

    Jeroen (I hate spinners) Belleman


    All depends on what you're doing. If you're building a browser based
    highly interactive computer aided dispatch system to parallel a legacy
    desktop suite of applications you're not going to get there with static
    html pages.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 27 20:48:05 2022
    On 4/27/2022 8:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
    All depends on what you're doing. If you're building a browser based highly interactive computer aided dispatch system to parallel a legacy desktop suite of applications you're not going to get there with static html pages.

    But what's the motivation for a browser-based solution?
    Are you trying to have a "no install" application (which
    makes it immediately available to EVERY seat)?
    Or, streamline maintenance (server-side updates)?
    Or...?

    Is this just another repeat of the centralized/distributed cycle (mainframe->workstations->server/clients-> ...)

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Apr 28 05:32:07 2022
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 08:49 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-27 16:23, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/26/2022 11:03 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Seamonkey may share some source with Thunderbird, but the browser
    wrecks Canadian Tire in a completely different way.

    There's always room for creativity. Dealing with browsers is like
    playing whack-a-mole. [...]

    Come on, it isn't that hard to make something that works in any
    browser. Of course, you have to avoid using all these snazzy
    features that web development package writers are so fond of.
    That shouldn't really be a problem, because most of those features
    are irritating anyway. We don't need animations, we don't want
    complete remakes of the user interface, we don't want JavaScript
    where straight HTML will do. Simple is best.

    Jeroen (I hate spinners) Belleman


    All depends on what you're doing. If you're building a browser based
    highly interactive computer aided dispatch system to parallel a legacy desktop suite of applications you're not going to get there with static
    html pages.

    What has that got to do with a simple parts ordering page?

    RockAuto handles millions of parts with ordinary browsers:

    https://www.rockauto.com/

    Amazon handles millions of parts with ordinary browsers:

    https://www.amazon.com

    Instacart handles lots of items with ordinary browsers:

    https://www.instacart.com

    Youtube handles billions of videos with ordinary browsers:

    https://www.youtube.com/

    A huge part of business runs with ordinary browsers.

    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?




    MRM

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Apr 27 23:28:01 2022
    On 04/27/2022 09:48 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 8:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
    All depends on what you're doing. If you're building a browser based
    highly interactive computer aided dispatch system to parallel a legacy
    desktop suite of applications you're not going to get there with
    static html pages.

    But what's the motivation for a browser-based solution?
    Are you trying to have a "no install" application (which
    makes it immediately available to EVERY seat)?
    Or, streamline maintenance (server-side updates)?
    Or...?'

    All of the above... In the last few years I've been seeing a lot of
    RFP's calling for zero footprint solutions. Some of that is justified
    paranoia about hacking. They don't advertise but an embarrassing number
    of sites have been pwned. Zero footprint means you can lock the
    workstations down tight and not let the users wander off to watch cat
    videos or whatever.

    They've backed off the cloud based fad. AWS has dumped often enough to
    take the shine off that. Losing Twitter for a couple of hours, no big
    deal. Losing your emergency response dispatch system is something else. Technically you're building a private cloud on premises and assuming the
    costs of buying and maintaining HA servers. That is the selling point of Azure/AWS etc -- let us worry about all that -- which is fine until it
    isn't. The other problem with the cloud is sensitive information. There
    are providers that offer secure installations with fully vetted
    personnel but that adds cost.

    If you've looked in a police car, fire truck, or ambulance lately they
    are fully wired. Have to physically update a couple of hundred mobile
    laptops is a problem. Even updating desktops in the dispatch center can
    be tricky. You try to pick a quiet time to take stations offline one by
    one and hope there isn't a mass casualty incident.


    Is this just another repeat of the centralized/distributed cycle (mainframe->workstations->server/clients-> ...)

    Most certainly. IBM's revenge. Money is always an issue and with a thin
    client you don't have to go overboard on the computer and can put the
    money into big 4K monitors.

    https://www.motorolasolutions.com/en_us/products/command-center-software/voice-and-computer-aided-dispatch.html

    Not our system but scroll down a little and that's a typical dispatch
    center. Those people love their monitors. The more the merrier.

    Who knows what the next iteration will bring?

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Apr 28 00:43:28 2022
    On 4/27/2022 10:28 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/27/2022 09:48 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 8:10 PM, rbowman wrote:

    But what's the motivation for a browser-based solution?
    Are you trying to have a "no install" application (which
    makes it immediately available to EVERY seat)?
    Or, streamline maintenance (server-side updates)?
    Or...?'

    All of the above... In the last few years I've been seeing a lot of RFP's calling for zero footprint solutions. Some of that is justified paranoia about
    hacking. They don't advertise but an embarrassing number of sites have been pwned. Zero footprint means you can lock the workstations down tight and not let the users wander off to watch cat videos or whatever.

    So, you're using the browser to give you the functionality of an "X Terminal"? But, you're still letting that build on a COTS OS (e.g., windows)? Does the user *need* the "generic PC" to be present IN ADDITION to the browser? I.e., why not replace the OS and browser and make a dedicated appliance (with deliberately limited functionality)?

    Or, do you want MS to deal with the "multiple vendor support" issues (so YOU don't have to develop network and video drivers for an unlimited number of potential hardware configurations)?

    They've backed off the cloud based fad. AWS has dumped often enough to take the

    Hmmmm... that's an interesting observation (the whole "cloud" idea struck me
    as seriously flawed)

    shine off that. Losing Twitter for a couple of hours, no big deal. Losing your
    emergency response dispatch system is something else. Technically you're building a private cloud on premises and assuming the costs of buying and maintaining HA servers.

    So, do you deploy the server-side code on commodity hardware? Or, "certified" (commodity) hardware -- so you have some control over that performance?

    If "local", then the trip to the server isn't as costly. So, why not move everything into the server (eliminating script altogether)? Or, does that solution not scale adequately (i.e., you're relying on the clients to effectively share some of the computational load)?

    That is the selling point of Azure/AWS etc -- let us
    worry about all that -- which is fine until it isn't. The other problem with the cloud is sensitive information. There are providers that offer secure installations with fully vetted personnel but that adds cost.

    I assume you aren't deploying personnel to each site but, rather, doing remote administration? Presumably, you've got that locked down tight so *you* aren't the attack vector? (all traffic in an encrypted tunnel?)

    If you've looked in a police car, fire truck, or ambulance lately they are fully wired. Have to physically update a couple of hundred mobile laptops is a
    problem. Even updating desktops in the dispatch center can be tricky. You try to pick a quiet time to take stations offline one by one and hope there isn't a
    mass casualty incident.

    But you're NOT updating those things, right? That's the whole point of
    pushing script into the clients "on demand"...

    Instead of something truly minimalist (like a Sun Ray), you're relying
    on the browser to give you "advanced primitives" that you can invoke,
    via script?

    But, by doing so, you are now at the mercy of the browser(s) that you
    want (?) to support.

    Is this just another repeat of the centralized/distributed cycle
    (mainframe->workstations->server/clients-> ...)

    Most certainly. IBM's revenge. Money is always an issue and with a thin client
    you don't have to go overboard on the computer and can put the money into big 4K monitors.

    Yeah, I fully embraced the thin client ideology many years ago. It made maintenance SO much easier! (By contrast, my workstations incur LOTS of maintenance). My current project relies completely on a bare bones
    client -- more like the Sun Rays than a browser or even an X Terminal
    (so, NEVER a need to update the client!)

    Not our system but scroll down a little and that's a typical dispatch center. Those people love their monitors. The more the merrier.

    Yeah, it's addictive. I run 5-6Kx2K on my workstations. The limit being how much I can take in with my eyes WITHOUT moving my head (the "tennis match" syndrome gets old, quick!)

    Who knows what the next iteration will bring?

    Someone will invariably lament that the latency is too great for games (or
    some other ENTERTAINMENT-related activity) and push to put more "programmable features" in the UI.

    Until that bloats to the point of a real workstation -- which will restart the cycle....

    Enough is never enough -- esp if you can rationalize someone ELSE paying for it!

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Thu Apr 28 07:44:02 2022
    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not doing anything fancy.

    There might be a clue with the various references to apple. It may work
    like a charm with Safari.

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  • From legg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 28 09:52:40 2022
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 23:24:50 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/25/2022 11:01 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is far superior to Chrome, Opera, SeaMonkey, or any other browser. >> I have tried them all.

    Your experience differs from mine, at least for the last several years.
    I'm running Firefox 99.0.1 on my Linux box. At least it no longer locks
    the machine up but it crashes on a couple of websites I visit and at
    other odd times.

    It's been losing market share for several years. Mozilla made several
    bad decisions and hasn't been keeping up. Your problem with Canadian
    Tire is one symptom.

    It is better than Safari though. Even if you put FF on an Apple device
    it uses webkit.

    Firefox, which started out as the web-browser component of
    Mozilla's Seamonkey, has been updated regularly. Seamonkey
    has released it's first revision in some time, only lately.
    This wasn't so much an update as a re-install.

    There was also an update of Java released lately, so there
    could be issues/bugs associated with that.

    Operating system, browser and java rev all affect the
    ability to negotiate some newer web-sites, so alternate
    browser availability is sometimes prudent and useful.

    My preference is to avoid browsers that are tied to data
    collectors/vendors and don't allow users to restrict
    specific java functions/operations.

    RL

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Thu Apr 28 07:26:55 2022
    On 4/28/2022 6:52 AM, legg wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 23:24:50 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/25/2022 11:01 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Firefox is far superior to Chrome, Opera, SeaMonkey, or any other browser. >>> I have tried them all.

    Your experience differs from mine, at least for the last several years.
    I'm running Firefox 99.0.1 on my Linux box. At least it no longer locks
    the machine up but it crashes on a couple of websites I visit and at
    other odd times.

    I've not seen a FF crash/lockup. But, it has nasty, persistent
    memory leaks. Plan on restarting it periodically. Especially
    on the consumer "8GB" machines.

    It's been losing market share for several years. Mozilla made several
    bad decisions and hasn't been keeping up. Your problem with Canadian
    Tire is one symptom.

    It is better than Safari though. Even if you put FF on an Apple device
    it uses webkit.

    Firefox, which started out as the web-browser component of
    Mozilla's Seamonkey, has been updated regularly. Seamonkey
    has released it's first revision in some time, only lately.
    This wasn't so much an update as a re-install.

    There was also an update of Java released lately, so there
    could be issues/bugs associated with that.

    Operating system, browser and java rev all affect the
    ability to negotiate some newer web-sites, so alternate
    browser availability is sometimes prudent and useful.

    My preference is to avoid browsers that are tied to data
    collectors/vendors and don't allow users to restrict
    specific java functions/operations.

    +42

    I run with damn near all script disabled. Then, selectively
    TEMPORARILY reenable domains -- avoiding those that are likely
    there just to facilitate tracking and ad pushes.

    If I can't get the site to function with a reasonable set of *enabled*
    domains, then I abandon the page (there are very few such sites that
    I would "miss" if I couldn't access them!)

    When done, I "disable all temporaries" to return to the set of
    domains that I'm comfortable leaving "on" at all times.

    I'm waiting for NoScript to *remember* the domains enabled for a specific page/webdomain so I don't have to repeat this exercise each time I
    visit a particular site.

    By far, my biggest peeve is with ecommerce sites with stupid search engines. E.g., searching for something very specific (lots of terms) ends up as a
    very GENERAL search -- as if each term was conjoined with the others with
    an "OR" operator.

    ["Yes, I'm sure you would like to get me to buy SOMETHING, hence all
    of the possibilities you're offering me. But, have you noticed that
    I don't even bother to scroll down past the first item -- as it
    clearly ISN'T the SPECIFIC item I was seeking? Let's see what
    your competitor shows for that search..."]

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Apr 28 08:27:48 2022
    On 04/28/2022 01:43 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 10:28 PM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/27/2022 09:48 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 8:10 PM, rbowman wrote:

    But what's the motivation for a browser-based solution?
    Are you trying to have a "no install" application (which
    makes it immediately available to EVERY seat)?
    Or, streamline maintenance (server-side updates)?
    Or...?'

    All of the above... In the last few years I've been seeing a lot of
    RFP's calling for zero footprint solutions. Some of that is justified
    paranoia about hacking. They don't advertise but an embarrassing
    number of sites have been pwned. Zero footprint means you can lock the
    workstations down tight and not let the users wander off to watch cat
    videos or whatever.

    So, you're using the browser to give you the functionality of an "X Terminal"?
    But, you're still letting that build on a COTS OS (e.g., windows)? Does
    the
    user *need* the "generic PC" to be present IN ADDITION to the browser?
    I.e.,
    why not replace the OS and browser and make a dedicated appliance (with deliberately limited functionality)?''

    Yes, you need a generic something with a browser. Windows XX,
    Chromebook, Apple Tablet, Android Tablet, Linux box, whatever else you
    can find... Particularly with Apple if they have the tablet, they're
    good to go. We did an app a few years ago. Android, sideload the apk.
    Apple, go through the whole Apple Store vetting hoops even for a
    proprietary app that couldn't even be used by the general public.

    A dedicated appliance would be a tough sell. They understand 'buy a
    Panasonic Toughbook'. It's the old 'nobody ever got fired for buying
    IBM'. Well, they may have. Historically our desktop suite ran on RS6000
    boxes with AIX. Then the bean counters noticed you could but Windows
    boxes a lot cheaper so we ported everything to Windows.

    Or, do you want MS to deal with the "multiple vendor support" issues (so
    YOU
    don't have to develop network and video drivers for an unlimited number of potential hardware configurations)?

    There is that too. The less we deal with hardware, the better.

    They've backed off the cloud based fad. AWS has dumped often enough to
    take the

    Hmmmm... that's an interesting observation (the whole "cloud" idea
    struck me
    as seriously flawed)

    It has issues.

    So, do you deploy the server-side code on commodity hardware? Or, "certified"
    (commodity) hardware -- so you have some control over that performance?

    Yes. Typically very healthy servers with a Stratus everRun HA setup.

    If "local", then the trip to the server isn't as costly. So, why not move everything into the server (eliminating script altogether)? Or, does that solution not scale adequately (i.e., you're relying on the clients to effectively share some of the computational load)?

    It wouldn't scale too well. We went that route a long time ago and it
    had issues. Connectivity is also a factor for mobile users. It isn't
    great but you have some usability if the network goes down or if the
    user goes out of cell coverage.

    I assume you aren't deploying personnel to each site but, rather, doing remote
    administration? Presumably, you've got that locked down tight so *you* aren't
    the attack vector? (all traffic in an encrypted tunnel?)

    There are site visits during the initial deployment to set up the system
    and train the personnel but day to day is remote. It used to be casual
    but now access to the system is locked down tight, two factor auth, the
    whole nine yards.

    If you've looked in a police car, fire truck, or ambulance lately they
    are fully wired. Have to physically update a couple of hundred mobile
    laptops is a problem. Even updating desktops in the dispatch center
    can be tricky. You try to pick a quiet time to take stations offline
    one by one and hope there isn't a mass casualty incident.

    But you're NOT updating those things, right? That's the whole point of pushing script into the clients "on demand"...

    Right. That's the incentive to go browser based rather than our legacy software.

    Instead of something truly minimalist (like a Sun Ray), you're relying
    on the browser to give you "advanced primitives" that you can invoke,
    via script?

    Yes, although we're working at a higher level of abstraction. With
    Angular you're creating the UI with the assumption something will make
    it happen.

    But, by doing so, you are now at the mercy of the browser(s) that you
    want (?) to support.

    Yes. We test on most of the popular browsers but, as this thread
    started, we do find bugs that need to be addressed because Browser X has quirks. In our experience X == Firefox. Because of the inclusion of
    tablets etc, there are further problems for rendering and layout.

    Is this just another repeat of the centralized/distributed cycle
    (mainframe->workstations->server/clients-> ...)

    Most certainly. IBM's revenge. Money is always an issue and with a
    thin client you don't have to go overboard on the computer and can put
    the money into big 4K monitors.

    Yeah, I fully embraced the thin client ideology many years ago. It made maintenance SO much easier! (By contrast, my workstations incur LOTS of maintenance). My current project relies completely on a bare bones
    client -- more like the Sun Rays than a browser or even an X Terminal
    (so, NEVER a need to update the client!)

    Left to my own devices we'd still be using ADM-3A's... My first
    exposure to Windows was 'this is going to suck sooner or later'

    Not our system but scroll down a little and that's a typical dispatch
    center. Those people love their monitors. The more the merrier.

    Yeah, it's addictive. I run 5-6Kx2K on my workstations. The limit
    being how
    much I can take in with my eyes WITHOUT moving my head (the "tennis match" syndrome gets old, quick!)

    I'm old school. I run multiple virtual desktops on one monitor. Our IT
    guy keeps asking if I want another monitor and I take a pass. I was a
    very happy camper when MS finally figured out how to do desktops.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Apr 28 10:59:05 2022
    On 4/28/2022 7:27 AM, rbowman wrote:

    So, you're using the browser to give you the functionality of an "X
    Terminal"?
    But, you're still letting that build on a COTS OS (e.g., windows)? Does
    the
    user *need* the "generic PC" to be present IN ADDITION to the browser?
    I.e.,
    why not replace the OS and browser and make a dedicated appliance (with
    deliberately limited functionality)?''

    Yes, you need a generic something with a browser. Windows XX, Chromebook, Apple
    Tablet, Android Tablet, Linux box, whatever else you can find... Particularly
    with Apple if they have the tablet, they're good to go. We did an app a few years ago. Android, sideload the apk. Apple, go through the whole Apple Store vetting hoops even for a proprietary app that couldn't even be used by the general public.

    But, then you're also opening the door for <whatever> to coexist with "you"
    on the device (?). How much grief does that cause your support staff as
    they end up having to troubleshoot "unrelated" problems caused by some
    crud Joe User opted to install on his box?

    We're developing a STEM program for local schools. Part of it is to
    provide a "development platform" to the students enrolled. The obvious solution is just to give them a laptop.

    But, then you're stuck dealing with all the cruft that will inevitably get ADDED to the laptop as the student (or, someone else in the household
    eyeing the laptop as something THEY could make use of) leverages your
    "gift". Likewise, when they want to go online (malware).

    So, we're locking down the BIOS so it won't run COTS OS's, just our own.
    I.e., it becomes a dedicated "teaching appliance" instead of a ubiquitous laptop. (as we're operating under a grant, we can't afford a big support
    staff like you might in a general educational setting; we want the grant
    monies to go towards "buying" extra seats, not extra *staff*!)

    [There are some tools -- free and otherwise -- that will let you lock down
    a box against persistent changes. But, that still lets the box be used
    for other purposes, if only transiently (if they are willing to not reboot
    for days/weeks, then the change is effectively permanent... and now a
    support problem!)]

    A dedicated appliance would be a tough sell. They understand 'buy a Panasonic Toughbook'. It's the old 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'. Well, they may have. Historically our desktop suite ran on RS6000 boxes with AIX. Then the
    bean counters noticed you could but Windows boxes a lot cheaper so we ported everything to Windows.

    But, can you have a list of "qualified" machines? Or, does that cut down
    your value-added? Perhaps even preparing a set of install images that
    you just dd(1) onto "select" machines (turn-key install)?

    If "local", then the trip to the server isn't as costly. So, why not move >> everything into the server (eliminating script altogether)? Or, does that >> solution not scale adequately (i.e., you're relying on the clients to
    effectively share some of the computational load)?

    It wouldn't scale too well. We went that route a long time ago and it had issues. Connectivity is also a factor for mobile users. It isn't great but you
    have some usability if the network goes down or if the user goes out of cell coverage.

    I've been addressing server-side scale with support to seamlessly add processors. As everything is inherently distributed, talking to another server-side processor is just as cheap as if talking to another "smart
    client" (the "smart" part residing server-side).

    Wireless bandwidth is my shortcoming (as users will typically not be
    sited at wired devices)

    If you've looked in a police car, fire truck, or ambulance lately they
    are fully wired. Have to physically update a couple of hundred mobile
    laptops is a problem. Even updating desktops in the dispatch center
    can be tricky. You try to pick a quiet time to take stations offline
    one by one and hope there isn't a mass casualty incident.

    But you're NOT updating those things, right? That's the whole point of
    pushing script into the clients "on demand"...

    Right. That's the incentive to go browser based rather than our legacy software.

    How do you address the Principle of Least Surprise when the possibility
    exists that a user may encounter a radically different "application",
    next time he "logs on"? Have you codified the types of changes that
    you will allow yourself to make/deploy to avoid this?

    [I'm sure everyone has dealt with a site that has "suddenly" -- from their personal perspective -- changed in ways that make using it, NOW, difficult (even if it is a long-term improvement)]

    This is the number one complain I see with push updates. (Imagine your CAR behaving differently, today, than it did, yesterday! Surely you wouldn't
    allow such changes to an airframe! Safety is important, there -- not so
    much with cars, eh? :> )

    Instead of something truly minimalist (like a Sun Ray), you're relying
    on the browser to give you "advanced primitives" that you can invoke,
    via script?

    Yes, although we're working at a higher level of abstraction. With Angular you're creating the UI with the assumption something will make it happen.

    OK. That's similar to my UI; apps indicate what the UI should be and the actual *device* figures out how to "render" that to the user. E.g., a
    blind user wouldn't benefit from a graphic presentation; nor would a deaf
    user benefit from an audible commentary!

    [And the last thing you want to do is force the app to decide on the presentation as they'll just concentrate on the modalities with which
    they are most familiar, at the expense of users who can't effectively
    use them!]

    But, by doing so, you are now at the mercy of the browser(s) that you
    want (?) to support.

    Yes. We test on most of the popular browsers but, as this thread started, we do
    find bugs that need to be addressed because Browser X has quirks. In our experience X == Firefox. Because of the inclusion of tablets etc, there are further problems for rendering and layout.

    But the tablet/form-factor issue is unrelated to the browser. You'd still
    have to accommodate that size/formfactor regardless of browser.

    Or, disallow those platforms.

    Is this just another repeat of the centralized/distributed cycle
    (mainframe->workstations->server/clients-> ...)

    Most certainly. IBM's revenge. Money is always an issue and with a
    thin client you don't have to go overboard on the computer and can put
    the money into big 4K monitors.

    Yeah, I fully embraced the thin client ideology many years ago. It made
    maintenance SO much easier! (By contrast, my workstations incur LOTS of
    maintenance). My current project relies completely on a bare bones
    client -- more like the Sun Rays than a browser or even an X Terminal
    (so, NEVER a need to update the client!)

    Left to my own devices we'd still be using ADM-3A's... My first exposure to Windows was 'this is going to suck sooner or later'

    I think any bit of code on which the UI relies has that "problem".
    How often do you recall firmware updates for glass TTYs?

    This is the thinking behind my "minimalist" i/f; so I can make those
    devices dirt cheap (the most commonly used one will retail for < $10)
    so you don't care if they "walk off". And, so a user can afford to
    buy many "spares" to address battery charge (if battery dies after
    12 hours of use, place on charger and pick up another FRESH unit
    for the next 12 hours!)

    Not our system but scroll down a little and that's a typical dispatch
    center. Those people love their monitors. The more the merrier.

    Yeah, it's addictive. I run 5-6Kx2K on my workstations. The limit
    being how
    much I can take in with my eyes WITHOUT moving my head (the "tennis match" >> syndrome gets old, quick!)

    I'm old school. I run multiple virtual desktops on one monitor. Our IT guy keeps asking if I want another monitor and I take a pass. I was a very happy camper when MS finally figured out how to do desktops.

    I have two workspaces (desktops) on each workstation. But, you (I) still need real estate.

    If I'm laying out a PCB, then I want to see the layout, the schematic, possibly a datasheet (or two) AND some notes. Stacking windows is a PITA -- as is swapping desktops.

    If I'm building a 3D model, then I'll want to see the wireframe AND the rendered model. And, maybe watch an animation built on it.

    Etc.

    I use the second desktop for consoles to other devices -- "System Management". E.g., if I have to mount a volume on a NAS, I'll open a console/webpage into that device on the "Alternate" desktop to interact with it, then flip back to the "Primary" desktop to continue whatever I was originally doing. It's
    a convenient distinction to keep in mind... instead of having to remember
    which *app* is where.

    Single monitor machines (e.g., my AiO's) tend to have specific roles... more like appliances than general workstations.

    [I think back to the 14", 16 color monitor I started with and shudder! :> Amusing to see how easily we can be "corrupted"! ]

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  • From boB@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 28 16:49:27 2022
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 09:07:17 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:15:22 -0400, Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    rbowman wrote:
    On 04/25/2022 05:04 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-25 11:19, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    ?? [...]
    Face it, internet is dead, back to posting pigeons. [...]

    It's getting worse by the day, indeed. I've seen sites that
    are *only* JavaScript, several Mbytes of it, which then load
    the equivalent of a mere kbyte or two of real content, and
    even that only if you have the very latest browser.

    It's like a resurgence of the flash-sites of the late '90s / early '00s >>>> all over again.

    This one may be here to stay. Angular, React, Vue, etc. Users have come
    to expect single page applications and they take JavaScript -- a lot of
    it. We're developing an Angular app and I don't even want to think about >>> how much JS.

    I run every browser instance in its own disposable Qubes VM, so whatever >>cruft they leave behind goes away when I close the browser (which shuts >>down the VM). Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    I keep my bookmarks in a Dropbox folder, all sorted. Firefox lets me >drag/drop links from the address bar into my bookmarks folder.

    The browser can die and I still have the bookmarks.


    I save my bookmarks to a file once in a while.

    For cookie and tracking mitigation, Privacy Badger takes care of that.

    I used to use FF and Noscript but it got kind of annoying to unblock
    things after a while.

    boB

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  • From Tauno Voipio@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 29 11:24:58 2022
    On 29.4.22 11.15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not doing
    anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. Firefox 96.0.2 no longer works.

    It looks like more companies are going the way of Android. They think everyone has a cellphone. Forget about desktops. They don't count.

    I wonder if posting a suggestion to Mozilla would do any good.

    First, I'll try the latest and greatest version of Firefox.

    Unfortunately, that means I have to bypass the update restriction I have in the registry.

    It also means I would be stuck with the update, even if it destroys other features that I need.

    Fortunately, I am running on VirtualBox, which means I can restore any previous version simply by reloading the .VDI file.

    Everyone should be on VirtualBox!


    Your Firefox may be obsolete, the settings work fine on 99.0.1.

    --

    -TV

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Apr 29 08:15:49 2022
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not doing anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. Firefox 96.0.2 no longer works.

    It looks like more companies are going the way of Android. They think
    everyone has a cellphone. Forget about desktops. They don't count.

    I wonder if posting a suggestion to Mozilla would do any good.

    First, I'll try the latest and greatest version of Firefox.

    Unfortunately, that means I have to bypass the update restriction I have in
    the registry.

    It also means I would be stuck with the update, even if it destroys other features that I need.

    Fortunately, I am running on VirtualBox, which means I can restore any
    previous version simply by reloading the .VDI file.

    Everyone should be on VirtualBox!




    --
    MRM

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 29 11:13:15 2022
    On 2022-04-29 10:15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not doing
    anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. [...]

    [...]

    Of course it does. There's a ferocious battle for web dominance going
    on. Every clan continually invents new tricks to render the opposition's software inoperative, influencing people to switch to /their/ version.
    They will then abuse that to pry private information out of you, and
    spray you with propaganda to manipulate you to commercial and political
    ends. With billions of subjects, the stakes are staggering and the
    tiniest details can have huge effects.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Tauno Voipio on Fri Apr 29 07:58:39 2022
    On 04/29/2022 02:24 AM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
    On 29.4.22 11.15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not doing
    anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. Firefox 96.0.2 no longer works.

    It looks like more companies are going the way of Android. They think
    everyone has a cellphone. Forget about desktops. They don't count.

    I wonder if posting a suggestion to Mozilla would do any good.

    First, I'll try the latest and greatest version of Firefox.

    Unfortunately, that means I have to bypass the update restriction I
    have in
    the registry.

    It also means I would be stuck with the update, even if it destroys other
    features that I need.

    Fortunately, I am running on VirtualBox, which means I can restore any
    previous version simply by reloading the .VDI file.

    Everyone should be on VirtualBox!


    Your Firefox may be obsolete, the settings work fine on 99.0.1.


    No problem here with 99.0.1 on OpenSUSE either. The only problem I've
    had lately is Amazon Prime video not working with Brave so I used Edge.
    I think that may be Brave's privacy enhancements and I could have worked
    around somehow.

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Apr 29 10:15:31 2022
    Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    On 2022-04-29 10:15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid.  Looking at their page source they're not doing
    anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. [...]

    [...]

    Of course it does. There's a ferocious battle for web dominance going
    on. Every clan continually invents new tricks to render the opposition's software inoperative, influencing people to switch to /their/ version.
    They will then abuse that to pry private information out of you, and
    spray you with propaganda to manipulate you to commercial and political
    ends. With billions of subjects, the stakes are staggering and the
    tiniest details can have huge effects.

    Jeroen Belleman

    "DOS isn't done till Lotus won't run."

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Apr 29 18:25:16 2022
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 2022-04-29 10:15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not doing
    anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. [...]

    [...]

    Of course it does. There's a ferocious battle for web dominance going
    on. Every clan continually invents new tricks to render the opposition's software inoperative, influencing people to switch to /their/ version.
    They will then abuse that to pry private information out of you, and
    spray you with propaganda to manipulate you to commercial and political
    ends. With billions of subjects, the stakes are staggering and the
    tiniest details can have huge effects.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Android is probably responsible for most of the shift to Chrome.

    For the rest of us, Ublock Plus is very effective at eliminating ads.

    e4ward.com and Pimmy are very effective at eliminating spam.

    Ubuntu and VirtualBox are very effective at maintaining multiple configurations (XP, Win7, Chrome, etc.)

    SysInternals is very effective at eliminating Malware and 100% CPU
    problems.

    We have much stronger defenses than the opposition.


    --
    MRM

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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to rbowman on Fri Apr 29 18:30:11 2022
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/29/2022 02:24 AM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
    On 29.4.22 11.15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not
    doing anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. Firefox 96.0.2 no longer works.

    It looks like more companies are going the way of Android. They think
    everyone has a cellphone. Forget about desktops. They don't count.

    I wonder if posting a suggestion to Mozilla would do any good.

    First, I'll try the latest and greatest version of Firefox.

    Unfortunately, that means I have to bypass the update restriction I
    have in
    the registry.

    It also means I would be stuck with the update, even if it destroys
    other features that I need.

    Fortunately, I am running on VirtualBox, which means I can restore any
    previous version simply by reloading the .VDI file.

    Everyone should be on VirtualBox!


    Your Firefox may be obsolete, the settings work fine on 99.0.1.


    No problem here with 99.0.1 on OpenSUSE either. The only problem I've
    had lately is Amazon Prime video not working with Brave so I used Edge.
    I think that may be Brave's privacy enhancements and I could have worked around somehow.

    Thanks. I have 99.0.1 but hesitated to use it since it opens a lot more
    threads than 96.0.2. Now that I have solved the 100% CPU problems on
    YouTube, it might be worth trying it again.





    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 29 19:20:13 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Your Firefox may be obsolete, the settings work fine on 99.0.1.


    No problem here with 99.0.1 on OpenSUSE either. The only problem I've
    had lately is Amazon Prime video not working with Brave so I used Edge.
    I think that may be Brave's privacy enhancements and I could have worked
    around somehow.

    Thanks. I have 99.0.1 but hesitated to use it since it opens a lot more threads than 96.0.2. Now that I have solved the 100% CPU problems on
    YouTube, it might be worth trying it again.

    OK, I upgraded to 99.0.1. It has three more threads than 96.0.2 and takes
    about 70 MB more memory.

    To eliminate 100% CPU problem on Youtube, I disabled the following:

    Start -> services.msc: disable

    Internet Connection Sharing (ICS)
    Media Center Extender Service
    Microsoft .NET Framework
    Net.Msmq Listener Adapter
    Net.Pipe Listener Adapter
    Net.Tcp Listener Adapter
    Net.Tcp Port Sharing Service
    Routing and Remote Access
    Superfetch
    Windows Defender
    Windows Firewall
    Windows Installer
    Windows Media Center Receiver Service
    Windows Media Center Scheduler Service
    Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service
    Windows Modules Installer
    Windows Remote Management
    Windows Search
    Windows Update

    Now Youtube Settings and Canadian Tire don't work:

    https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/bow-cpvc-pipe-0631902p.0631902.html

    It looks like I overdid it on disabling services. However, I won't need to change the Youtube Settings, and if I ever need to order from Canadian Tire again, I can reload the Chrome .VDI

    I will probably go back to 96.0.2 and recover the 70 MB of memory. Note
    that Firefox will not allow you to downgrade. You lose your profile. There
    are ways around it, but VirtualBox is much simpler and faster.




    --
    MRM

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to boB on Fri Apr 29 16:58:31 2022
    On 4/28/2022 4:49 PM, boB wrote:
    I save my bookmarks to a file once in a while.

    I have found that *most* of my bookmarks are rarely revisited. Or, by
    the time I decide to followup on something I "stumbled upon", the page
    has moved.

    Mortal of story, copy content as you encounter it instead of expecting
    it to be there when you later want it.

    For cookie and tracking mitigation, Privacy Badger takes care of that.

    Ghostery and AdBlock Plus with an overzealous censorship of script domains.

    I used to use FF and Noscript but it got kind of annoying to unblock
    things after a while.

    The obvious upgrade to NS will be to track settings per site so you
    don't have to manually reimpose them. Of course, there's no guarantee
    that what "works" for a site, today, will continue to work, tomorrow.
    But, that's the nature of server-side "apps"...

    When you consider the dynamic nature of the standards and the motivation
    of advertisers to "seize your eyes", it's a wonder that any of these
    mechanisms are effective, at all!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 29 20:14:19 2022
    On 04/29/2022 12:30 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/29/2022 02:24 AM, Tauno Voipio wrote:
    On 29.4.22 11.15, Mike Monett wrote:
    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/27/2022 11:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    Why does Canadian Tire require one specific browser?

    Simply put, because they don't care or the website was developed by
    someone's cousin's kid. Looking at their page source they're not
    doing anything fancy.

    Youtube settings now requires Chrome. Firefox 96.0.2 no longer works.

    It looks like more companies are going the way of Android. They think
    everyone has a cellphone. Forget about desktops. They don't count.

    I wonder if posting a suggestion to Mozilla would do any good.

    First, I'll try the latest and greatest version of Firefox.

    Unfortunately, that means I have to bypass the update restriction I
    have in
    the registry.

    It also means I would be stuck with the update, even if it destroys
    other features that I need.

    Fortunately, I am running on VirtualBox, which means I can restore any >>>> previous version simply by reloading the .VDI file.

    Everyone should be on VirtualBox!


    Your Firefox may be obsolete, the settings work fine on 99.0.1.


    No problem here with 99.0.1 on OpenSUSE either. The only problem I've
    had lately is Amazon Prime video not working with Brave so I used Edge.
    I think that may be Brave's privacy enhancements and I could have worked
    around somehow.

    Thanks. I have 99.0.1 but hesitated to use it since it opens a lot more threads than 96.0.2. Now that I have solved the 100% CPU problems on
    YouTube, it might be worth trying it again.






    99 seems a lot more civilized than previous versions as far as using
    CPU. I've seen it briefly kick up to 45% usually with a lot of 'Isolated
    Web Content' processes. Watching in top, those come and go even with the browser just sitting there. It used to be so bad that I would be lucky
    if I could get to a console to start killing it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 29 20:19:12 2022
    On 04/29/2022 01:20 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    I will probably go back to 96.0.2 and recover the 70 MB of memory. Note
    that Firefox will not allow you to downgrade. You lose your profile. There are ways around it, but VirtualBox is much simpler and faster.

    Thunderbird on Windows did that to me once. There was a major upgrade
    that did not function on my system. Getting back to what did work was
    painful. I should be used to that. At least Visual Studio warned that if
    you upgraded your solution you ain't never going back.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From boB@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sat Apr 30 00:08:17 2022
    On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:58:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/28/2022 4:49 PM, boB wrote:
    I save my bookmarks to a file once in a while.

    I have found that *most* of my bookmarks are rarely revisited. Or, by
    the time I decide to followup on something I "stumbled upon", the page
    has moved.

    Mortal of story, copy content as you encounter it instead of expecting
    it to be there when you later want it.

    I actually do this for some sites and things I do want to save. Save
    them as PDF. None of the browsers really allow you to save a file as
    shown anymore so I donated to and use FireShot which really works
    well.

    Once in a great while you can print to PDF from a browser but only
    very simple pages. Just try to "print" a web page these days.
    Last time I tried a couple years ago, none of the browsers I tried
    worked worth a darn.

    boB



    For cookie and tracking mitigation, Privacy Badger takes care of that.

    Ghostery and AdBlock Plus with an overzealous censorship of script domains.

    I used to use FF and Noscript but it got kind of annoying to unblock
    things after a while.

    The obvious upgrade to NS will be to track settings per site so you
    don't have to manually reimpose them. Of course, there's no guarantee
    that what "works" for a site, today, will continue to work, tomorrow.
    But, that's the nature of server-side "apps"...

    When you consider the dynamic nature of the standards and the motivation
    of advertisers to "seize your eyes", it's a wonder that any of these >mechanisms are effective, at all!


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to boB on Sat Apr 30 03:05:13 2022
    On 4/30/2022 12:08 AM, boB wrote:
    On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:58:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/28/2022 4:49 PM, boB wrote:
    I save my bookmarks to a file once in a while.

    I have found that *most* of my bookmarks are rarely revisited. Or, by
    the time I decide to followup on something I "stumbled upon", the page
    has moved.

    Mortal of story, copy content as you encounter it instead of expecting
    it to be there when you later want it.

    I actually do this for some sites and things I do want to save. Save
    them as PDF. None of the browsers really allow you to save a file as
    shown anymore so I donated to and use FireShot which really works
    well.

    Once in a great while you can print to PDF from a browser but only
    very simple pages. Just try to "print" a web page these days.
    Last time I tried a couple years ago, none of the browsers I tried
    worked worth a darn.

    A lot depends on what you are trying to save.

    E.g., A video *in* a page is a PITA to capture -- you typically need to
    capture it separately and reassemble the page. And, some folks go out
    of their way to make it hard to capture videos (with audio).

    Some pages you're only interested in the text (sans typefaces).

    Or, a particular image/illustration.

    If I want to get the whole page, I resort to a screen capture tool
    like SnagIt. It can capture (to varying degrees of satisfaction)
    as an image or text -- and in a variety of different file formats.

    Note that FF also has a "snapshot" capability (to PNGs, IIRC).

    I've not sorted out why capturing (rendering) to a file is any harder
    than rendering to the screen... but, clearly there is *some* issue!

    OTOH, relying on the page being there at some later date is largely folly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to boB@K7IQ.com on Sat Apr 30 11:38:53 2022
    On a sunny day (Sat, 30 Apr 2022 00:08:17 -0700) it happened boB
    <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <dtnp6hhon1aub5jllf5s0ooegdb5iqf4dq@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:58:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/28/2022 4:49 PM, boB wrote:
    I save my bookmarks to a file once in a while.

    I have found that *most* of my bookmarks are rarely revisited. Or, by
    the time I decide to followup on something I "stumbled upon", the page
    has moved.

    Mortal of story, copy content as you encounter it instead of expecting
    it to be there when you later want it.

    I actually do this for some sites and things I do want to save. Save
    them as PDF. None of the browsers really allow you to save a file as
    shown anymore so I donated to and use FireShot which really works
    well.

    I often just use
    import website_name.gif

    man import
    import(1)
    import(1)
    NAME
    import - saves any visible window on an X server and outputs it as an image file. You can capture a single window, the entire screen, or any rectangular portion of the screen.
    Linux of course.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)