• Re: Two GPUs, one way more power efficient? How?

    From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Paul on Wed Apr 20 10:27:48 2022
    On 20/04/2022 00:31, Paul wrote:
    On 4/19/2022 4:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-280x.c2398
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-nano.c2735

    Both the same process size.
    Second one double pretty much everything. Yet way less power
    consumption? How is this possible?

    TSMC has more than one 28nm process.

    https://www.techinsights.com/blog/review-tsmc-28-nm-process-technology

        HP    HPM   HPL   LP
        0.85  0.9   1.0   1.05V

    TechInsight is the company that used to dip chips in
    acid, remove the outer layers, and use an electron microscope
    on what is inside. They would sometimes provide tech data
    for patent enforcement cases in court ("you stole my
    ring oscillator!").

    The people who I knew doing that sort of chip reverse engineering work
    tended to be using an imaging Cameca ion probe system and plasma etch.
    It can not just image the surface but also the dopants all the way down.

    Limited field of view so you have to choose wisely or wreck several
    chips. I was never really convinced it was ethical but it was certainly profitable for the players that had perfected the technique.

    https://www.cameca.com/products/sims/nanosims

    It is interesting that the makers don't list this usage in their
    application notes although it isn't dissimilar to geological specimens.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Apr 20 13:50:44 2022
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:27:48 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 20/04/2022 00:31, Paul wrote:
    On 4/19/2022 4:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-280x.c2398
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-nano.c2735

    Both the same process size.
    Second one double pretty much everything. Yet way less power
    consumption? How is this possible?

    TSMC has more than one 28nm process.

    https://www.techinsights.com/blog/review-tsmc-28-nm-process-technology

    HP HPM HPL LP
    0.85 0.9 1.0 1.05V

    TechInsight is the company that used to dip chips in
    acid, remove the outer layers, and use an electron microscope
    on what is inside. They would sometimes provide tech data
    for patent enforcement cases in court ("you stole my
    ring oscillator!").

    The people who I knew doing that sort of chip reverse engineering work
    tended to be using an imaging Cameca ion probe system and plasma etch.
    It can not just image the surface but also the dopants all the way down.

    Limited field of view so you have to choose wisely or wreck several
    chips. I was never really convinced it was ethical but it was certainly profitable for the players that had perfected the technique.

    https://www.cameca.com/products/sims/nanosims

    It is interesting that the makers don't list this usage in their
    application notes although it isn't dissimilar to geological specimens.

    Fuck ethics, do good for all and make better stuff.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Apr 20 06:41:13 2022
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 6:59:43 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-280x.c2398 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r9-nano.c2735

    Both the same process size.
    Second one double pretty much everything. Yet way less power consumption? How is this possible?

    The first one dates from 2013 and has half the silicon area and half the number of transistors.

    It is clearly a different design from the second one dated 2015. If you've got more transistors to play with you can do more complicated stuff, and some of that was presumably devoted to reducing the power consumption. Guessing exactly what anybody
    might be doing with a couple of billion transistors would be rather like trying to work out how a human being works by looking at the three billion discrete elements in the human genome.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Sat Apr 30 11:36:23 2022
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.

    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle
    such a large file. After messing around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions, I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries, which I had to find myself. Then I
    wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Joel on Sat Apr 30 03:31:56 2022
    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 06:53:56 2022
    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?

    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Sat Apr 30 23:13:06 2022
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?

    Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.

    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either.

    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 1 00:34:10 2022
    Am 01.05.22 um 00:13 schrieb Commander Kinsey:

    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places
    of work, I have never ever broken a windows update.  You just click yes
    and it installs it.  How you managed to do  that wrong I have no idea.

    Yes, and when it decides it is the time to reboot at 4 am
    it kills my QuestaSim run with the regression tests.
    15 hours of simulation time gone.

    I limit a Windows machine to a virtual VMware thing.
    No internet access, no reboot. No more begging to
    postpone a reboot.
    Just a few hours, please, pretty please?

    Gerhard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Gerhard Hoffmann on Sun May 1 00:03:32 2022
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:34:10 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:

    Am 01.05.22 um 00:13 schrieb Commander Kinsey:

    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places
    of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes
    and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    Yes, and when it decides it is the time to reboot at 4 am
    it kills my QuestaSim run with the regression tests.
    15 hours of simulation time gone.

    I limit a Windows machine to a virtual VMware thing.
    No internet access, no reboot. No more begging to
    postpone a reboot.
    Just a few hours, please, pretty please?

    This is a thing millions of people complain about. It has cost people money. It doesn't even save open documents. Nobody knows why MS is so forceful with updates, it doesn't benefit them whatsoever. But I just switched them off. I check manually
    every few months.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 15:37:23 2022
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?
    Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.
    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either.
    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 1 00:04:49 2022
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:37:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set? >> Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.
    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either.
    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.

    If it's broken 0 of my 3000 machines, it's either very rare, or it something stupid you're doing. 3000 is a big enough data set to call the problem insignificant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 16:36:16 2022
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:05:00 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:37:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?
    Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.
    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either.
    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.
    If it's broken 0 of my 3000 machines, it's either very rare, or it something stupid you're doing. 3000 is a big enough data set to call the problem insignificant.

    Yes, other people's problems are always insignificant. I think we understand you pretty well now.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 1 01:48:59 2022
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 00:36:16 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:05:00 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:37:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?
    Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.
    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either.
    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.
    If it's broken 0 of my 3000 machines, it's either very rare, or it something stupid you're doing. 3000 is a big enough data set to call the problem insignificant.
    Yes, other people's problems are always insignificant. I think we understand you pretty well now.

    I see you have a poor grasp of English comprehension. If 3000 machines in my care had no problems, 0 machines in my care had problems, and there's no reason to believe anyone else is more likely to have problems than me, that's a bloody small number of
    people who will have problems. Nothing to do with selfishness.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 20:19:51 2022
    On 04/30/2022 05:03 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:34:10 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
    wrote:

    Am 01.05.22 um 00:13 schrieb Commander Kinsey:

    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places
    of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes
    and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    Yes, and when it decides it is the time to reboot at 4 am
    it kills my QuestaSim run with the regression tests.
    15 hours of simulation time gone.

    I limit a Windows machine to a virtual VMware thing.
    No internet access, no reboot. No more begging to
    postpone a reboot.
    Just a few hours, please, pretty please?

    This is a thing millions of people complain about. It has cost people
    money. It doesn't even save open documents. Nobody knows why MS is so forceful with updates, it doesn't benefit them whatsoever. But I just switched them off. I check manually every few months.

    We had a client who complained about our system crashing at around 2 AM.
    It was Windows Server rebooting for updates. You can easily turn
    automatic updates off (at least with that generation of Server) but why
    MS though the default should be automatic is beyond me.

    The downside is many of our clients NEVER update server. When push comes
    to shove and the last few years of updates have to be applied there may
    be an hour of two of downtime.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 19:20:37 2022
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 8:49:11 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 00:36:16 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:05:00 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:37:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?
    Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.
    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either. >> >> Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.
    If it's broken 0 of my 3000 machines, it's either very rare, or it something stupid you're doing. 3000 is a big enough data set to call the problem insignificant.
    Yes, other people's problems are always insignificant. I think we understand you pretty well now.
    I see you have a poor grasp of English comprehension. If 3000 machines in my care had no problems, 0 machines in my care had problems, and there's no reason to believe anyone else is more likely to have problems than me, that's a bloody small number of
    people who will have problems. Nothing to do with selfishness.

    I see you have a poor grasp of reality. I won't debate this with you further. You are the sort of intransigent non-thinker this group seems to have in excess. The world does not revolve around you and your personal experiences. 1 in 3,000 is not a
    small number when dealing with many millions or billions of machines.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 19:43:39 2022
    On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 10:49:11 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 00:36:16 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:05:00 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:37:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    <snip>

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.

    If it's broken 0 of my 3000 machines, it's either very rare, or it something stupid you're doing. 3000 is a big enough data set to call the problem insignificant.
    Yes, other people's problems are always insignificant. I think we understand you pretty well now.

    There's no problems so large on somebody else's computer that Commander Kinsey can't ignore it.

    I see you have a poor grasp of English comprehension. If 3000 machines in my care had no problems, 0 machines in my care had problems, and there's no reason to believe anyone else is more likely to have problems than me, that's a bloody small number of
    people who will have problems. Nothing to do with selfishness.

    It depends how you define "problem". Commander Kinsey clearly thinks that anything that doesn't inconvenience him, personally, isn't a problem.

    Other people can bleat as much as they like, but he doesn't see their - doubtless imaginary - "problems" as something he has to worry about.

    Being as thick as a brick does have its advantages, if only for the thicko himself.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun May 1 07:58:41 2022
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 03:19:51 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/30/2022 05:03 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:34:10 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
    wrote:

    Am 01.05.22 um 00:13 schrieb Commander Kinsey:

    Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places >>>> of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes >>>> and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    Yes, and when it decides it is the time to reboot at 4 am
    it kills my QuestaSim run with the regression tests.
    15 hours of simulation time gone.

    I limit a Windows machine to a virtual VMware thing.
    No internet access, no reboot. No more begging to
    postpone a reboot.
    Just a few hours, please, pretty please?

    This is a thing millions of people complain about. It has cost people
    money. It doesn't even save open documents. Nobody knows why MS is so
    forceful with updates, it doesn't benefit them whatsoever. But I just
    switched them off. I check manually every few months.

    We had a client who complained about our system crashing at around 2 AM.
    It was Windows Server rebooting for updates. You can easily turn
    automatic updates off (at least with that generation of Server) but why
    MS though the default should be automatic is beyond me.

    The downside is many of our clients NEVER update server. When push comes
    to shove and the last few years of updates have to be applied there may
    be an hour of two of downtime.

    Better to have an hour or two of scheduled downtime than to do it randomly in the middle of important things going on. Imagine a Microsoft car - you're driving along the motorway at 100mph and.... just a moment, updating software, you can use the
    steering wheel again in a few minutes....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 1 07:59:52 2022
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 03:20:37 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 8:49:11 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 00:36:16 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:05:00 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:37:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 6:13:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:53:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:36:32 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 11:31:56 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, 30 April 2022 at 11:22:40 UTC+1, Joel wrote:

    If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    That would be a major improvement.
    No it wouldn't. I tried Linux twice. It took me 8 hours to install one program and fail to
    configure it. First of all it refused to run because it didn't know an executable was a program

    Do you mean a file with a .exe suffix or one with the executable bit set?
    Now you see that nonsense doesn't happen with windows. Look I just downloaded the file from the website ok? If it doesn't run as is, something is fucked.
    and thought it should open in a text editor which couldn't handle such a large file. After messing
    around, and having to resort to the command line and a google search on several occasions,
    I got it to launch, again having to use the command line. Then there were missing libraries,
    which I had to find myself. Then I wanted to change something in the program's ini file. But I'm
    not allowed to access that file, it's a system protected file. It's my own computer!!! So log on as
    root? Oh no, that's against the law. Found hundreds of people asking how to do it, but every
    response was either "don't" or "you can't". Bugger that, I'm using Windows.

    My latest fun with Windows was a recent update which failed. I couldn't do any more updates
    until this one had succeeded. I have spent hours searching for fixes, including various
    different recommendations from Microsoft, none of which work. One of the Microsoft
    recommended fixes broke it even more, so the machine is unusable at the moment. The only
    thing left is to extract the data I want from it and re-install Windows. I'll stick with Linux Mint
    (and Rocky for some servers) for as many things as possible. If a file needs to be made
    executable there is no need to use the command line - just click on an option in the file
    permissions window. I've never had a problem becoming root either. >> >> >> Strangely using 20 of my own computers and a few thousand at two places of work, I have never ever broken a windows update. You just click yes and it installs it. How you managed to do that wrong I have no idea.

    This is the problem. You have little understanding of the problem. You think updating software is the same as turning on a lightbulb because it has always worked for you. MS did an update some years ago where they were bricking computers left and
    right. They offered advice, but took no responsibility. Some people were able to recover their computers, some didn't.

    One must always be cognizant of the fact that a PC is a finite state machine with the number of states as 2**(billions of memory bits, plus the many CPU internal bits). That's a hard machine to diagnose or to modify.
    If it's broken 0 of my 3000 machines, it's either very rare, or it something stupid you're doing. 3000 is a big enough data set to call the problem insignificant.
    Yes, other people's problems are always insignificant. I think we understand you pretty well now.
    I see you have a poor grasp of English comprehension. If 3000 machines in my care had no problems, 0 machines in my care had problems, and there's no reason to believe anyone else is more likely to have problems than me, that's a bloody small number
    of people who will have problems. Nothing to do with selfishness.

    I see you have a poor grasp of reality. I won't debate this with you further. You are the sort of intransigent non-thinker this group seems to have in excess. The world does not revolve around you and your personal experiences. 1 in 3,000 is not a
    small number when dealing with many millions or billions of machines.

    It's 0 in 3000, and you've again missed the point that it's stats and not selfishness we're discussing, and you can't understand percentages. 1 in 3000 is the same as 1000 in 3 million.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun May 1 01:58:08 2022
    On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:33:45 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 12:39:49 +0100, Joel <joel...@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    You *are* depriving Microsoft of the cost of supporting your pirated
    copy of their OS. It costs money to update it.

    Did you read what I wrote? If I changed to Linux, they'd still get no money form me. So what harm is it to them if I use Windows for free?

    It's a sale they should have made. Linux isn't and wasn't developed on a commercial basis, so they don't care. All the developers want is admiration.

    My point is that you seem to think it's like a game. You think that >>>>> Microsoft is this corporate entity to be taken advantage of, because >>>>> you're the little guy, but in reality, if no one paid for software, >>>>> you'd be stuck with only free software. You're trying to have it both >>>>> ways.

    No, I know there are morons like you that will pay for me.

    And we'll shop you to Microsoft if we get half a chance.

    But that's the thing, I *didn't* pay for you, I paid for my copy. It's >>> a delusion to think Microsoft is somehow getting anything for your
    copy. The $200 I paid for Windows Pro really is the value of one
    copy, they are taking a loss when people pirate it. You may not care, >>> but it's tantamount to theft. It's not possible to support commercial >>> software without money. They have to develop updates and new
    versions. If no one bought Windows, you'd be stuck with Linux.

    If I didn't copy it, your price would have been lower, ha!

    Nope. $200 is the true retail value of Windows Pro. It is absolutely
    a good deal, for what one gets, I could've saved about $50 by getting
    the OEM version, but it was simpler to just buy the retail product key online, and make my own media to install from.

    $200 is absurd, considering it's one of a billion copies sold. So you're saying Windows cost $200 billion to write?

    Scarcely. There have been a lot of versions of Windows (going back to 3.1). and each one had to be extensively rewritten to offer the next generation of bells and whistles. Some versions were totally hopeless and may not have recovered the cost of
    writing them.

    As the existence of Linux demonstrates, the Windows commercial model isn't a good one, but it has been good enough to make a lot of money for Bill Gates, and it keeps a lot of users happy enough to avoid the extra work it takes to get Linux running on
    your computer - not a lot in my experience, but enough to be off-putting for the less skillful.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun May 1 03:21:02 2022
    On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 08:00:00 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I see you have a poor grasp of English comprehension. If 3000 machines in my care had no problems, 0 machines in my care had problems, and there's no reason to believe anyone else is more likely to have problems than me, that's a bloody small number
    of people who will have problems. Nothing to do with selfishness.

    I see you have a poor grasp of reality. I won't debate this with you further. You are the sort of intransigent non-thinker this group seems to have in excess. The world does not revolve around you and your personal experiences. 1 in 3,000 is not a
    small number when dealing with many millions or billions of machines.
    It's 0 in 3000, and you've again missed the point that it's stats and not selfishness we're discussing, and you can't understand percentages. 1 in 3000 is the same as 1000 in 3 million.

    I find it hard to believe that you personally updated 3000 machines, so you may not have got to
    hear about all the problems. The last time I worked for a company with many thousands of PCs
    they also avoided problems with Windows updates.
    All new PCs were wiped and a special corporate Windows image was installed which included
    all the usual office products and the main corporate software. Normal users were prevented
    from installing updates - or from doing anything else which required administrator permissions.
    All updates were tested for a week or so before being rolled out, usually overnight.
    If users wanted to install other software, special permission was required. The condition
    was that if there were problems the machine would be re-imaged with a clean copy of
    Windows. Nothing could be connected to the network without explicit permission.
    Notebook computers used at home could only access the internet through a VPN linked to
    the corporate network.
    Even with all these draconican measures there were still problems from time to time.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Mon May 2 04:16:56 2022
    On Sun, 01 May 2022 11:21:02 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, 1 May 2022 at 08:00:00 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I see you have a poor grasp of English comprehension. If 3000 machines in my care had no problems, 0 machines in my care had problems, and there's no reason to believe anyone else is more likely to have problems than me, that's a bloody small
    number of people who will have problems. Nothing to do with selfishness.

    I see you have a poor grasp of reality. I won't debate this with you further. You are the sort of intransigent non-thinker this group seems to have in excess. The world does not revolve around you and your personal experiences. 1 in 3,000 is not a
    small number when dealing with many millions or billions of machines.
    It's 0 in 3000, and you've again missed the point that it's stats and not selfishness we're discussing, and you can't understand percentages. 1 in 3000 is the same as 1000 in 3 million.

    I find it hard to believe that you personally updated 3000 machines, so you may not have got to
    hear about all the problems.

    They obviously weren't mine, they belonged to two places of work. Why would you find it surprising there were that many machines?

    The last time I worked for a company with many thousands of PCs
    they also avoided problems with Windows updates.
    All new PCs were wiped and a special corporate Windows image was installed which included
    all the usual office products and the main corporate software. Normal users were prevented
    from installing updates

    ARGH! I detest admins like that. I was loved for being very liberal. Anyone could do anything they wanted with their machine. Topless models on the desktop, install their own software, whatever they liked. Not fast enough? Here's a stick of RAM.
    Communism makes everything the same. In the free world, users are the ones that do the work in the company, they should be happy and efficient. Power hungry admins just piss everyone off and slow everything down.

    - or from doing anything else which required administrator permissions.

    All users were admins on their own machine where I worked. Why waste my time installing software when half of them could manage it themselves?

    All updates were tested for a week or so before being rolled out, usually overnight.

    No need, since they all just worked.

    If users wanted to install other software, special permission was required.

    Heil Hitler!

    The condition
    was that if there were problems the machine would be re-imaged with a clean copy of
    Windows. Nothing could be connected to the network without explicit permission.

    WTF?!?!

    Notebook computers used at home could only access the internet through a VPN linked to
    the corporate network.
    Even with all these draconican measures there were still problems from time to time.

    draconian

    You got that right.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Joel on Thu May 5 14:41:46 2022
    On Thursday, 5 May 2022 at 19:43:08 UTC+1, Joel wrote:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Theft deprives somebody of something. If I couldn't pirate Windows, I'd use Linux.

    You *are* depriving Microsoft of the cost of supporting your pirated >>>> copy of their OS. It costs money to update it.

    Did you read what I wrote? If I changed to Linux, they'd still get no money form me. So what harm is it to them if I use Windows for free?

    That's not the issue, the issue is that it's rationalization to think
    that piracy is a victimless crime. It's their intellectual property,
    they get to set the price.

    Of course it's victimless. Re-read what I wrote and use a calculator if necessary. "If I changed to Linux, they'd still get no money form me."
    Then put your (lack of) money where your mouth is - switch to Linux.
    But you won't do that, will you? You're just a shameless warezer.
    If I didn't copy it, your price would have been lower, ha!

    Nope. $200 is the true retail value of Windows Pro. It is absolutely >>>> a good deal, for what one gets, I could've saved about $50 by getting >>>> the OEM version, but it was simpler to just buy the retail product key >>>> online, and make my own media to install from.

    $200 is absurd, considering it's one of a billion copies sold. So you're saying Windows cost $200 billion to write?

    Nope, very few people, statistically speaking, do what I did.

    Because very few people are as stupid as you.
    And again, insulting people who do the honorable thing. Utter
    stupidity.
    Most people who assemble their own computers are buying resold product keys
    from a third party, but I wouldn't be comfortable with that, even
    though it's so cheap.

    Apparently that's a bit naughty - the place I bought 100 of those from (for building machines for others) was told by Microsoft to "please stop doing that".
    Good point, apparently I was right not to go that route.


    Its not quite that simple. In the EU it is perfectly legal to use a software license
    that is no longer being used by the original purchaser. For example, if Windows
    was supplied with a PC that has been scrapped, then that Windows license can be sold to somebody else who is entitled to use it on another machine.
    Microsoft don't like it, which is why they ask you nicely not to do it.
    In the UK it is probably still legal, because all EU law became incorporated into
    UK law after Brexit unless specifically changed.
    I have no idea about the situation in the USA.
    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Thu May 5 22:13:10 2022
    John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote in news:a7cdc579-a748-43e3-823d-c9156b34e118n@googlegroups.com:

    On Thursday, 5 May 2022 at 19:43:08 UTC+1, Joel wrote:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Theft deprives somebody of something. If I couldn't pirate
    Windows, I'd use Linux.

    You *are* depriving Microsoft of the cost of supporting your
    pirated copy of their OS. It costs money to update it.

    Did you read what I wrote? If I changed to Linux, they'd
    still get no money form me. So what harm is it to them if I
    use Windows for free?

    That's not the issue, the issue is that it's rationalization
    to think that piracy is a victimless crime. It's their
    intellectual property, they get to set the price.

    Of course it's victimless. Re-read what I wrote and use a
    calculator if necessary. "If I changed to Linux, they'd still
    get no money form me."
    Then put your (lack of) money where your mouth is - switch to
    Linux. But you won't do that, will you? You're just a shameless
    warezer.
    If I didn't copy it, your price would have been lower, ha!

    Nope. $200 is the true retail value of Windows Pro. It is
    absolutely a good deal, for what one gets, I could've saved
    about $50 by getting the OEM version, but it was simpler to
    just buy the retail product key online, and make my own
    media to install from.

    $200 is absurd, considering it's one of a billion copies
    sold. So you're saying Windows cost $200 billion to write?

    Nope, very few people, statistically speaking, do what I did.

    Because very few people are as stupid as you.
    And again, insulting people who do the honorable thing. Utter
    stupidity.
    Most people who assemble their own computers are buying resold
    product keys from a third party, but I wouldn't be comfortable
    with that, even though it's so cheap.

    Apparently that's a bit naughty - the place I bought 100 of
    those from (for building machines for others) was told by
    Microsoft to "please stop doing that".
    Good point, apparently I was right not to go that route.


    Its not quite that simple. In the EU it is perfectly legal to use
    a software license that is no longer being used by the original
    purchaser. For example, if Windows was supplied with a PC that
    has been scrapped, then that Windows license can be sold to
    somebody else who is entitled to use it on another machine.
    Microsoft don't like it, which is why they ask you nicely not to
    do it. In the UK it is probably still legal, because all EU law
    became incorporated into UK law after Brexit unless specifically
    changed. I have no idea about the situation in the USA.
    John


    Very doubtful. Windows license is tied to the machine it is sold
    with. AND it will not operate on other hardware without illegal
    manipulations. You may not like it, but you are not correct.What you
    have no idea about is how an OS can be tied to the serialization of
    the machine it is installed onto.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Mon May 9 17:51:36 2022
    On Thu, 05 May 2022 22:41:46 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, 5 May 2022 at 19:43:08 UTC+1, Joel wrote:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Theft deprives somebody of something. If I couldn't pirate Windows, I'd use Linux.

    You *are* depriving Microsoft of the cost of supporting your pirated
    copy of their OS. It costs money to update it.

    Did you read what I wrote? If I changed to Linux, they'd still get no money form me. So what harm is it to them if I use Windows for free?

    That's not the issue, the issue is that it's rationalization to think
    that piracy is a victimless crime. It's their intellectual property,
    they get to set the price.

    Of course it's victimless. Re-read what I wrote and use a calculator if necessary. "If I changed to Linux, they'd still get no money form me."
    Then put your (lack of) money where your mouth is - switch to Linux.
    But you won't do that, will you? You're just a shameless warezer.
    If I didn't copy it, your price would have been lower, ha!

    Nope. $200 is the true retail value of Windows Pro. It is absolutely
    a good deal, for what one gets, I could've saved about $50 by getting >> >>>> the OEM version, but it was simpler to just buy the retail product key >> >>>> online, and make my own media to install from.

    $200 is absurd, considering it's one of a billion copies sold. So you're saying Windows cost $200 billion to write?

    Nope, very few people, statistically speaking, do what I did.

    Because very few people are as stupid as you.
    And again, insulting people who do the honorable thing. Utter
    stupidity.
    Most people who assemble their own computers are buying resold product keys
    from a third party, but I wouldn't be comfortable with that, even
    though it's so cheap.

    Apparently that's a bit naughty - the place I bought 100 of those from (for building machines for others) was told by Microsoft to "please stop doing that".
    Good point, apparently I was right not to go that route.


    Its not quite that simple. In the EU it is perfectly legal to use a software license
    that is no longer being used by the original purchaser. For example, if Windows
    was supplied with a PC that has been scrapped, then that Windows license can be
    sold to somebody else who is entitled to use it on another machine.
    Microsoft don't like it, which is why they ask you nicely not to do it.
    In the UK it is probably still legal, because all EU law became incorporated into
    UK law after Brexit unless specifically changed.
    I have no idea about the situation in the USA.

    Why would that not be legal anywhere?!

    Ah hang on.... is this the same as Tesla getting away with saying the extra they switched on in your car, which you then sold to me, has to be paid for again? American law is fucked up.

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