• Keyboard Boot Virus?

    From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 18 00:55:58 2022
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
    reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
    itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
    help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
    bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
    and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
    ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
    keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
    can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
    up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
    line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.



    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Sun Apr 17 18:20:30 2022
    On 4/17/2022 5:55 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    Have you tried RE-plugging the keyboard to see if that causes the problem
    to RE-appear? Are you sure the problem wasn't transient?

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard ROM?

    Possible? Sure. Likely? I'd have a better chance of winning the lottery WITHOUT buying a ticket!

    There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
    keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.

    That's usually handled in the PC.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
    up when there was no keyboard connected!

    That's the case with any (every?) machine. It's a standing joke for those
    of us that run headless boxes... (machine won't boot? attach a monitor
    and see a complaint about CNOS battery "Press F2 to continue" -- "Crap!
    Now I've got to drag out a keyboard...")

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.

    Keep a spare *monitor* available (so when your monitor craps out,
    you'll be able to navigate an orderly shutdown)

    Configure boot order to allow network boot (assuming you have the
    skillset to make that happen) so you can get the machine "up"
    even with a bad disk.

    Keep a bootable USB and CD-ROM on hand (also good for "resetting"
    forgotten passwords)

    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Don't have valuable "stuff" on an exposed computer. So, *if* you are
    ever a victim (or suspect that to be the case), you can simply restore
    the ORIGINAL DISK IMAGE (that you took time to save when you built the computer) -- which takes just a few minutes.

    [The machine that I use as "console" for my cold archive just experienced
    a disk failure. It took longer to get it disassembled -- to remove/replace
    the hard disk -- than it took to restore the original disk image!]

    Good Luck.

    A "common" boot problem is having a USB storage device installed at
    boot time AND the boot order configured to query it as a potential
    boot source. (you can likely alter your boot order to eliminate this
    problem; ditto with optical media that happen to remain in the drive
    at boot time)

    It's possible that your keyboard was responding to the boot query with
    enough "garbage" to confuse the system (think "buggy implementation").

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 22:02:36 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 00:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
    wrote:

    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the >problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls >between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I >disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to >reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
    itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
    help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the >problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would >conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any >information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64 >bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo >and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard >ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the >keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you >can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It >completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary >component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
    up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was >using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on >line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.

    So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?

    I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
    eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

    I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
    This included motherboard and PSU.

    A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
    power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

    neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

    Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
    'went out'.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 18 01:19:33 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    [...]

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    trillions of power supplies delivered

    S and D keys are too close

    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to legg on Mon Apr 18 03:02:28 2022
    legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 00:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
    wrote:

    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This >>cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
    the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT
    firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not >>necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to >>reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot >>itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not >>help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause
    the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would >>conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would >>have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any >>information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains
    64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and
    lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the
    keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to
    map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable >>memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly.
    It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary >>component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It
    showed up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I
    was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it >>would not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get
    back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.

    So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?

    I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
    eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

    I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
    This included motherboard and PSU.

    A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
    power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

    neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

    Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
    'went out'.

    RL

    Thanks. I know how to power down my computer.

    The problems started before I rebooted. The computer behaved very
    strangely. Using the down cursor would cause an endless loop where the only solution was to power off the computer. When I powered up, it would go back into the endless loop.

    I run Win7 on VirtualBox. I have numerous backup files on a separate ssd.
    These show up as .VDI files, which I organise by date.

    Changing the motherboard and loading the most recent backup solved the
    problem and allowed me to get back online.



    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Sun Apr 17 20:21:29 2022
    On 4/17/2022 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
    So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?

    I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
    eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

    Have a look through the logs? I'm always amused that folks don't take
    the first steps to see what the *software* managed to observe (and record)
    in a problem situation! This is particularly valuable as it will often
    give you a picture into the recent past from which you might be able
    to see a failure starting to develop...

    I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
    This included motherboard and PSU.

    Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original
    disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).

    The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
    that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
    it from a fresh disk.

    [Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use
    to examine a disk before removing it]

    I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
    only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
    (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

    A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
    power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

    neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

    Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
    'went out'.

    Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
    and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
    having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 18 03:26:05 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
    itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
    help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    Sounds like a faulty keyboard.
    Perhaps that was already mentioned.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 18 03:50:08 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Changing the motherboard and loading the most recent backup solved the problem and allowed me to get back online.

    Changing the motherboard showed the problem was not with the system. Changing the keyboard solved the problem. Can you write into the keyboard prom?

    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From TTman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 18 09:29:33 2022
    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
    itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
    help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
    up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.



    are you related to Skybuck ?


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 18 10:20:03 2022
    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.

    I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
    only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.

    The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
    would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
    cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
    it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
    with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.

    Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
    been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
    are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.

    Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.

    Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
    implementation are usually hardware related.

    Bad capacitors around the memory PSU is my first suspicion for
    unexplained BSODs - at rakish angles if they are on their last legs.

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Having a spare keyboard and mouse is always handy.
    I would never rely on Windows Firewall for anything.

    Most people these days have at least one previous computer still in
    working condition and/or a portable or tablet or smartphone.

    Granted Usenet support on some of these is less than stellar.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Apr 18 11:45:01 2022
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
    the problem. None of them worked.

    This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.

    I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
    only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.

    The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
    would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
    cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
    it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
    with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.

    Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
    been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
    are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.

    Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.

    Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
    implementation are usually hardware related.

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    Bad capacitors around the memory PSU is my first suspicion for
    unexplained BSODs - at rakish angles if they are on their last legs.

    The power supply is fine. I am running on it now.

    I have the Ubuntu installation cd. I would try it except I wouldn't know
    how to interpret the results. I'd be happy to send the keyboard to anyone
    who has the tools to analyze the problem.

    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Mon Apr 18 08:52:26 2022
    Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
    itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
    help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
    up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.



    0. Use a PS2-style keyboard.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bilou@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 18 15:03:22 2022
    Le 18/04/2022 à 02:55, Mike Monett a écrit :
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
    itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
    help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
    have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
    up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
    not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.



    That is exactly the kind of problem you have when there is
    a resistive default between line and column in the keyboard matrix.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Mon Apr 18 12:03:57 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:21:29 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/17/2022 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
    So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?

    I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
    eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

    Have a look through the logs? I'm always amused that folks don't take
    the first steps to see what the *software* managed to observe (and record)
    in a problem situation! This is particularly valuable as it will often
    give you a picture into the recent past from which you might be able
    to see a failure starting to develop...

    Accessing the logs was the power-off trigger for the final two
    successful Linux re-starts. Sector errors reported on next boot
    attempt.

    I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
    This included motherboard and PSU.

    Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original >disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).

    Fairly simple matter for a single OS/disk. I'm at sea after Linux reformats/repartitions the disk for dual boot.

    The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable >carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk >that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
    it from a fresh disk.

    I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
    reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.

    [Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use >to examine a disk before removing it]
    'neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.'
    This was an option I never got around to doing while OS ran -
    the HDD was scarcely 8mo old.

    I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
    only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
    (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

    I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.

    Motherboards regularly require cap replacement (2-3yrs) in both
    Dell and ECS motherboards (symptom is 'no boot' with bulging
    caps). I've replaced those in the Dell Optiplexes two or
    three times with the best-to-be-had, as well as some inside
    their custom PSUs.

    Motherboards were replaced in three instances in various machines;
    when USB connex became unpredictable,
    when a video processor chip developed an open crater in its body,
    and in the final case - this unexplained power-off.

    I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
    predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
    case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).

    Motherboards are obviously subject to insertion wear and static
    damage on user accessible hardware.

    A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
    power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

    neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

    Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
    'went out'.

    Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
    and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
    having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

    Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
    deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
    engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
    Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Mon Apr 18 10:35:13 2022
    On 4/18/2022 9:03 AM, legg wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:21:29 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/17/2022 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
    So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?

    I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
    eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

    Have a look through the logs? I'm always amused that folks don't take
    the first steps to see what the *software* managed to observe (and record) >> in a problem situation! This is particularly valuable as it will often
    give you a picture into the recent past from which you might be able
    to see a failure starting to develop...

    Accessing the logs was the power-off trigger for the final two
    successful Linux re-starts. Sector errors reported on next boot
    attempt.

    Ah. Most (Windows) folks seem to be ignorant of the fact that they even exist! *BSD (ditto Linux) are considerably easier to access/grep/preserve/etc.

    I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
    This included motherboard and PSU.

    Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original
    disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).

    Fairly simple matter for a single OS/disk. I'm at sea after Linux reformats/repartitions the disk for dual boot.

    I don't understand why that would be the case?

    Make a literal copy (while the disk is still bootable) and
    try that, in place of the "suspect" disk. If problem goes
    away, put suspect disk back in place and verify problem
    *returns*.

    I.e., the contents of the disks are identical so any
    difference in bahavior is related to physical/mechanical
    issues.

    {reinstalling the suspect component is essential to
    verify the fault follows it. Otherwise, things may
    have "magically" improved -- because of a cable that
    got jiggled in the process, because something had a
    chance to cool down, because a different memory frame
    is hosting a particular part of the code, etc.)

    The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable >> carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
    that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
    it from a fresh disk.

    I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
    reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.

    ??? Huh? The carrier is a part of the computer -- like having the
    right "mounting rails" was decades back. The disk fits in the
    carrier and the carrier fits *inside* the computer. For my HPs:

    <https://cdn.verk.net/images/73/2_338504-1500x1046.jpeg>

    For my Sun boxen:

    <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XcYAAOSwq6VcLoFp/s-l300.jpg>

    For my Dell boxen:

    <https://allmarket.ge/u/11/28/63/FnBalhgLEk-KrOoiWc9-OA/e139435a-2bd9-4db6-9eb8-c873cfc9123d.jpg>

    Perhaps you are thinking more in terms of:

    <http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/DRW110SATBK.E.jpg>

    [Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use >> to examine a disk before removing it]
    'neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.'
    This was an option I never got around to doing while OS ran -
    the HDD was scarcely 8mo old.

    I incrementally build an image of the disk as I am building the original. Install OS, take image. Install first few aps, take image on a SECOND
    medium (so first image is still available as a fallback if you later decide
    to roll back to "just after OS install"). Install next group of apps,
    take image (overwriting/supplementing first image).

    So, if I change my mind about installing Application #46 on the machine,
    I can restore the image closest to -- but prior to -- application #46's installation (I don't like uninstalling application on a Windows box as I
    don't think it completely removes everything)

    [This works fine for reasonably small system disks. Once you get up to
    ~1TB, then the imaging process becomes time-intensive (do it while
    sleeping)]

    Once I am happy with the build, I move the image into an offline storage area and put a label on it. E.g., the machine whose disk recently died required
    me to drag out it's image disk to recreate a new disk for the machine. Then, put the failing (but not yet completely dead) disk in a USB dock and pull
    off any files that I may consider "precious" that weren't present in the
    image. Then, move the failing disk into the sanitizer before destruction.

    I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
    only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
    (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

    I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.

    Dunno. I've been running rescued Dells/HPs/Suns for about 25 years.
    I've had to recap a neighbor's IBM machine. And, an old Dell server
    with redundant power supplies ~15 years ago.

    I haven't noticed any suspect caps in any of my current herd (I open
    them up to vacuum the various active heat sinks periodically).

    I keep a pile of spare power supplies for those machines that have
    oddball power supplies as I'd rather replace than repair (at least
    in the short-run). Z800 1100W: <https://www.laptechtheitstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hp1-3-1024x768.jpg>

    Sun Blade 2000 670W: <https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-017c0/images/stencil/2560w/products/2617/67373/Sun_300-1357_670W_Power_Supply_2__01878.1628802072.JPG?c=2>

    (these are *big*/heavy)

    Keyboards regularly develop "faulty keys" and need a good cleaning. So,
    I keep a pile (literally!) of them on hand to swap out -- and arrange to
    clean the flakey one(s) at my leisure.

    Likewise, monitors (I have ~20 "spare" monitors on hand -- a consequence of having configured workstations to use 4 or 6 monitors, each, in the past).
    I remind SWMBO just how *spoiled* she is in that if she has a "problem"
    with any of her computers, it's "remedied" in a matter of minutes! (This
    is worth doing, periodically, to counter her complaints about all the shi^H^Htuff that I have! :> )

    Motherboards regularly require cap replacement (2-3yrs) in both
    Dell and ECS motherboards (symptom is 'no boot' with bulging
    caps). I've replaced those in the Dell Optiplexes two or
    three times with the best-to-be-had, as well as some inside
    their custom PSUs.

    Motherboards were replaced in three instances in various machines;
    when USB connex became unpredictable,
    when a video processor chip developed an open crater in its body,
    and in the final case - this unexplained power-off.

    I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
    predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
    case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).

    I'm not the OP complaining of a bad keyboard :> I *have* swapped out
    mice (esp wireless ones) while using them. But, usually the problem
    is "low batteries" in the mouse, leading to erratic behavior. Keyboards
    just develop bad key (groups).

    While most of my primary machines support hot swapping (of nonsystem disk), I've never been excited to *try* that! :> (OTOH, I do it all the time
    on my disk sanitizer -- but, I wrote the code for that so KNOW when the
    disk is "safe" -- and, the disk is *wiped* at that point!)

    Motherboards are obviously subject to insertion wear and static
    damage on user accessible hardware.

    The memory sockets on many motherboards are also rated for a very low number
    of insertion cycles (like "single digits")! One reason I avoid rescued
    "beige boxes" -- who knows how often the previous owner dicked with the
    memory!

    A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
    power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

    neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

    Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
    'went out'.

    Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
    and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
    having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

    Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
    deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
    engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
    Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT

    I've been moving to turn everything into a network appliance so
    all a workstation needs is a keyboard, mouse and NIC. E.g.,
    I PXE boot USFF boxes and use them as NASs, print over the wire,
    serve my SAS and SCSI drives via a SAN, etc. It's a big win when
    you have multiple machines that could want to access those resources
    (and connector/cable wear-and-tear can become a latent problem)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Mon Apr 18 14:55:02 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:35:13 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    <snip>
    Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original >>> disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).

    Fairly simple matter for a single OS/disk. I'm at sea after Linux
    reformats/repartitions the disk for dual boot.

    I don't understand why that would be the case?

    Make a literal copy (while the disk is still bootable) and
    try that, in place of the "suspect" disk. If problem goes
    away, put suspect disk back in place and verify problem
    *returns*.

    I.e., the contents of the disks are identical so any
    difference in bahavior is related to physical/mechanical
    issues.

    {reinstalling the suspect component is essential to
    verify the fault follows it. Otherwise, things may
    have "magically" improved -- because of a cable that
    got jiggled in the process, because something had a
    chance to cool down, because a different memory frame
    is hosting a particular part of the code, etc.)


    The HDD is definitely dead. Tried to probe it in a non-OS
    slot of a different machine and the bios reported 'smart'
    info at start - 'damaged-backup-replace', refusing to boot
    with the drive present.

    The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable >>> carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk >>> that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve >>> it from a fresh disk.

    I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
    reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.

    ??? Huh? The carrier is a part of the computer -- like having the
    right "mounting rails" was decades back. The disk fits in the
    carrier and the carrier fits *inside* the computer. For my HPs:

    <https://cdn.verk.net/images/73/2_338504-1500x1046.jpeg>

    For my Sun boxen:

    <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XcYAAOSwq6VcLoFp/s-l300.jpg>

    For my Dell boxen:

    <https://allmarket.ge/u/11/28/63/FnBalhgLEk-KrOoiWc9-OA/e139435a-2bd9-4db6-9eb8-c873cfc9123d.jpg>

    Perhaps you are thinking more in terms of:

    <http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/DRW110SATBK.E.jpg>

    I started with SNT brand hardware - uniformity allowing swaps between
    different brands of PC. These were the ones that accompanied most of
    my woes. I have some startech hardware now which doesn't seem
    immediately to be any better. So there may be an SNT (for IDE) and a
    startech (for SATA) in my built boxes.

    All carriers add an extra few failure modes. Airflow and fan failure
    are pretty common - case grounding another issue, but there are extra connectors and harnesses that suffer as discs are swapped into and
    out of the caddies themselves.

    After a while, I expect the MS windows Hardware Abstraction Layer
    to start complaining and misbehaving. With linux, I'm at the mercy
    of whatever advice/gui is available at the time.

    [Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use
    to examine a disk before removing it]
    'neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.'
    This was an option I never got around to doing while OS ran -
    the HDD was scarcely 8mo old.

    I incrementally build an image of the disk as I am building the original. >Install OS, take image. Install first few aps, take image on a SECOND
    medium (so first image is still available as a fallback if you later decide >to roll back to "just after OS install"). Install next group of apps,
    take image (overwriting/supplementing first image).

    So, if I change my mind about installing Application #46 on the machine,
    I can restore the image closest to -- but prior to -- application #46's >installation (I don't like uninstalling application on a Windows box as I >don't think it completely removes everything)

    [This works fine for reasonably small system disks. Once you get up to
    ~1TB, then the imaging process becomes time-intensive (do it while
    sleeping)]

    Once I am happy with the build, I move the image into an offline storage area >and put a label on it. E.g., the machine whose disk recently died required >me to drag out it's image disk to recreate a new disk for the machine. Then, >put the failing (but not yet completely dead) disk in a USB dock and pull
    off any files that I may consider "precious" that weren't present in the >image. Then, move the failing disk into the sanitizer before destruction.

    I used to use a ternary back-up system; newest cloned on top of oldest
    at regular intervals. With the carriers, I think I did more harm than
    good.

    Now I just back-up the systems regularly to an external drive, and
    replace the internal drive every so often.

    I find myself, at present, unable to locate the previous known-good
    version of the dead HDD (required to restore the back-up). There's
    no place for it to hide. Must be going senile.

    I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
    only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
    (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

    I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.

    Dunno. I've been running rescued Dells/HPs/Suns for about 25 years.
    I've had to recap a neighbor's IBM machine. And, an old Dell server
    with redundant power supplies ~15 years ago.

    I haven't noticed any suspect caps in any of my current herd (I open
    them up to vacuum the various active heat sinks periodically).


    I suspect that I own these models and brands precisely because they
    do fail for simple reasons - availability and low price aftermarket.

    I keep a pile of spare power supplies for those machines that have
    oddball power supplies as I'd rather replace than repair (at least
    in the short-run). Z800 1100W: ><https://www.laptechtheitstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hp1-3-1024x768.jpg>

    Sun Blade 2000 670W: ><https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-017c0/images/stencil/2560w/products/2617/67373/Sun_300-1357_670W_Power_Supply_2__01878.1628802072.JPG?c=2>

    (these are *big*/heavy)

    Power supplies I know, having designed and developed similar stuff
    over the years. Seldom saw anything novel or interesting in the
    off-shore stuff, for the PC market, regardless of the paint job
    or marketing.

    Keyboards regularly develop "faulty keys" and need a good cleaning. So,
    I keep a pile (literally!) of them on hand to swap out -- and arrange to >clean the flakey one(s) at my leisure.

    Likewise, monitors (I have ~20 "spare" monitors on hand -- a consequence of >having configured workstations to use 4 or 6 monitors, each, in the past).
    I remind SWMBO just how *spoiled* she is in that if she has a "problem"
    with any of her computers, it's "remedied" in a matter of minutes! (This
    is worth doing, periodically, to counter her complaints about all the >shi^H^Htuff that I have! :> )

    I've revived my acer monitors twice (dead electrolytics both times).
    It's silly.


    Motherboards regularly require cap replacement (2-3yrs) in both
    Dell and ECS motherboards (symptom is 'no boot' with bulging
    caps). I've replaced those in the Dell Optiplexes two or
    three times with the best-to-be-had, as well as some inside
    their custom PSUs.

    Motherboards were replaced in three instances in various machines;
    when USB connex became unpredictable,
    when a video processor chip developed an open crater in its body,
    and in the final case - this unexplained power-off.

    I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
    predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
    case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).

    I'm not the OP complaining of a bad keyboard :> I *have* swapped out
    mice (esp wireless ones) while using them. But, usually the problem
    is "low batteries" in the mouse, leading to erratic behavior. Keyboards
    just develop bad key (groups).

    My bad. Waiting for OP to change the frigging keyboard.


    While most of my primary machines support hot swapping (of nonsystem disk), >I've never been excited to *try* that! :> (OTOH, I do it all the time
    on my disk sanitizer -- but, I wrote the code for that so KNOW when the
    disk is "safe" -- and, the disk is *wiped* at that point!)

    Motherboards are obviously subject to insertion wear and static
    damage on user accessible hardware.

    The memory sockets on many motherboards are also rated for a very low number >of insertion cycles (like "single digits")! One reason I avoid rescued >"beige boxes" -- who knows how often the previous owner dicked with the >memory!

    A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
    power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

    neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

    Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
    'went out'.

    Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
    and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
    having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

    Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
    deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
    engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
    Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT

    I've been moving to turn everything into a network appliance so
    all a workstation needs is a keyboard, mouse and NIC. E.g.,
    I PXE boot USFF boxes and use them as NASs, print over the wire,
    serve my SAS and SCSI drives via a SAN, etc. It's a big win when
    you have multiple machines that could want to access those resources
    (and connector/cable wear-and-tear can become a latent problem)

    Cloning a previous HDD from 2016 (ouch!) in order to restore last
    back-up.

    If this boots the PC into a power-off situation, it will be a
    stickler.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Mon Apr 18 13:04:12 2022
    On 4/18/2022 11:55 AM, legg wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:35:13 -0700, Don Y

    The HDD is definitely dead. Tried to probe it in a non-OS
    slot of a different machine and the bios reported 'smart'
    info at start - 'damaged-backup-replace', refusing to boot
    with the drive present.

    Dead is good -- it limits the effort you'll have to expend on it! :>
    (and, if you can't find any backups, that limits *that* effort,
    as well!)

    The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable >>>> carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk >>>> that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve >>>> it from a fresh disk.

    I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
    reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.

    ??? Huh? The carrier is a part of the computer -- like having the
    right "mounting rails" was decades back. The disk fits in the
    carrier and the carrier fits *inside* the computer. For my HPs:

    <https://cdn.verk.net/images/73/2_338504-1500x1046.jpeg>

    For my Sun boxen:
    <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XcYAAOSwq6VcLoFp/s-l300.jpg>

    For my Dell boxen:
    <https://allmarket.ge/u/11/28/63/FnBalhgLEk-KrOoiWc9-OA/e139435a-2bd9-4db6-9eb8-c873cfc9123d.jpg>

    Perhaps you are thinking more in terms of:
    <http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/DRW110SATBK.E.jpg>

    I started with SNT brand hardware - uniformity allowing swaps between different brands of PC. These were the ones that accompanied most of
    my woes. I have some startech hardware now which doesn't seem
    immediately to be any better. So there may be an SNT (for IDE) and a
    startech (for SATA) in my built boxes.

    All carriers add an extra few failure modes. Airflow and fan failure
    are pretty common - case grounding another issue, but there are extra connectors and harnesses that suffer as discs are swapped into and
    out of the caddies themselves.

    Mine use the SATA connector on the *drive* to mate to the SATA cable
    *in* the PC. So, it's essentially like a non-removable disk installation; there's no ADDITIONAL intermediate "cable adapter/assembly". The
    carrier/sled is just a mechanical convenience (instead of using screws to fasten the drive to the chassis, you fasten the drive to the carrier/sled)

    As the PCs were designed *with* these carriers, they've taken whatever
    steps in the rest of the design to ensure adequate air flow, grounding,
    etc. -- it's not like an "aftermarket" product that has to try to be
    compatible with every PC out there.

    After a while, I expect the MS windows Hardware Abstraction Layer
    to start complaining and misbehaving. With linux, I'm at the mercy
    of whatever advice/gui is available at the time.

    The problem with MS is that it tries REALLY HARD to hide errors.
    E.g., it will retry operations far more often than *I* would tolerate;
    let me know you're having a problem BEFORE it becomes so severe that
    you're retries don't save my ass!

    I designed my disk sanitizer to monitor the performance of the DUT
    throughout the process. I.e., sectors should take *roughly* the same
    amount of time (locally) to process. If sector X takes t and sector X+1
    takes 1.5t, then I have to wonder if the disk is having a problem and
    trying to hide that from me!

    Once I am happy with the build, I move the image into an offline storage area
    and put a label on it. E.g., the machine whose disk recently died required >> me to drag out it's image disk to recreate a new disk for the machine. Then,
    put the failing (but not yet completely dead) disk in a USB dock and pull
    off any files that I may consider "precious" that weren't present in the
    image. Then, move the failing disk into the sanitizer before destruction.

    I used to use a ternary back-up system; newest cloned on top of oldest
    at regular intervals. With the carriers, I think I did more harm than
    good.

    Drives don't come out of my workstations unless they are being replaced (upgraded) or fail.

    I don't backup the workstations themselves; I can *rebuild* them from
    the images created when they were built (for the system disk) and
    then reinstall any additional "support files" on the other spindles
    (I use 1T system disks and ~4T of additional "support" spindles).
    As the support files are usually just copied from original install
    media, there is no need to image those spindles -- just "recopy" from
    the archived original media.

    Any precious "working files" I just push onto some other machine
    when the mood strikes. If there are multiple files related to <whatever>
    I happen to be working on, I wrap them in an archive (ZIP, ISO, RAR, etc.)
    and push *that*.

    I have a daemon that watches the various machines and keeps a centralized database updated so I can find copies of various files regardless of where
    they may reside (it looks *into* each archive to see what it contains
    so I can search for specific files instead of having to HOPE a particular archive contains a particular file). Having synchronized time means I can determine which copy is "most recent" just from timestamps (and, the daemon computes a hash for each so I can verify that a file/archive is intact at
    any time)

    [I don't like incremental backups and full backups are too costly
    in terms of time and space]

    Now I just back-up the systems regularly to an external drive, and
    replace the internal drive every so often.

    Similar except my "external drive" is just some other host that
    happens to be "up" when I push the copy across to it.

    I tend to be working in reasonably "focused" areas so it's usually
    one *type* of (set of) files that I'll be backing up. E.g., if I'm
    designing a board, there will be datasheets, schematics, VHDL and
    layouts that are all related. If doing an animation, then models,
    materials and scripts. etc. It's too hard to try to work in multiple disciplines simultaneously...

    OTOH, one can often get sidetracked before a task is completed so
    you need to be able to figure out where you *were* on a particular
    task...

    I find myself, at present, unable to locate the previous known-good
    version of the dead HDD (required to restore the back-up). There's
    no place for it to hide. Must be going senile.

    Welcome to the club!

    The "save ONE image" approach means I can store all of the images
    in a single place (I use a large "camera bag") and know where they are.
    And, finding specific backups of *files* relies on my "catalog"
    (which runs on my "network controller appliance" -- DNS, font server,
    PXE server, NTP, etc. -- so it is always available via TELNET)

    I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And, >>>> only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
    (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

    I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.

    Dunno. I've been running rescued Dells/HPs/Suns for about 25 years.
    I've had to recap a neighbor's IBM machine. And, an old Dell server
    with redundant power supplies ~15 years ago.

    I haven't noticed any suspect caps in any of my current herd (I open
    them up to vacuum the various active heat sinks periodically).

    I suspect that I own these models and brands precisely because they
    do fail for simple reasons - availability and low price aftermarket.

    I just rescue "discards". No one wants BIG boxes (e.g., the Z800's weigh
    60+ pounds; the SB2000 is over 70!) so they have no "market value", *locally*. While there may be an eBay value, the cost of shipping makes that awkward.
    And, I usually need big boxes for the various add-in cards that I use (SAS
    and SCSI HBAs, dual GPUs, etc.) as well as multiple spindles (the Z800s have
    4 internal plus 3 exposed bays)

    I keep a pile of spare power supplies for those machines that have
    oddball power supplies as I'd rather replace than repair (at least
    in the short-run). Z800 1100W:
    <https://www.laptechtheitstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hp1-3-1024x768.jpg>

    Sun Blade 2000 670W:
    <https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-017c0/images/stencil/2560w/products/2617/67373/Sun_300-1357_670W_Power_Supply_2__01878.1628802072.JPG?c=2>

    (these are *big*/heavy)

    Power supplies I know, having designed and developed similar stuff
    over the years. Seldom saw anything novel or interesting in the
    off-shore stuff, for the PC market, regardless of the paint job
    or marketing.

    As these are "odd" mechanical configurations, I can't run down and
    pick up a $49 special in the event of a failure. So, to keep
    MTTR short, I just plan on swapping a defective unit out and
    worry about fixing it at a later time.

    Keyboards regularly develop "faulty keys" and need a good cleaning. So,
    I keep a pile (literally!) of them on hand to swap out -- and arrange to
    clean the flakey one(s) at my leisure.

    Likewise, monitors (I have ~20 "spare" monitors on hand -- a consequence of >> having configured workstations to use 4 or 6 monitors, each, in the past). >> I remind SWMBO just how *spoiled* she is in that if she has a "problem"
    with any of her computers, it's "remedied" in a matter of minutes! (This
    is worth doing, periodically, to counter her complaints about all the
    shi^H^Htuff that I have! :> )

    I've revived my acer monitors twice (dead electrolytics both times).
    It's silly.

    Yes. I acquired mine for similar problems. And, once you've fixed ONE
    of a Model X, fixing *10* is a piece of cake (you already know how to disassemble quickly, board layout, component part numbers, etc.)
    STORING them is the bigger issue! (I've got the shelves in both of
    my closets full, the tops of my bookcases, etc. -- and, that doesn't
    include the 10 that are "in service"!)

    In the past, I've rescued monitors that were perfectly operational -- but
    had some particular quirks that made them not *obvious* to use. E.g., requiring dual link DVI and the bozo was using a single link cable or
    video card and wondering why it didn't work. Another model had a bug that required you to *reset* the monitor to restore functionality, etc.

    (sigh) Lots of stuff gets scrapped that still has considerable useful life!

    I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
    predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
    case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).

    I'm not the OP complaining of a bad keyboard :> I *have* swapped out
    mice (esp wireless ones) while using them. But, usually the problem
    is "low batteries" in the mouse, leading to erratic behavior. Keyboards
    just develop bad key (groups).

    My bad. Waiting for OP to change the frigging keyboard.

    I'm waiting for him to change it *back* (to "prove" the fault was in
    the keyboard; dubious diagnostic skills...)

    Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
    and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
    having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

    Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
    deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
    engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
    Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT

    I've been moving to turn everything into a network appliance so
    all a workstation needs is a keyboard, mouse and NIC. E.g.,
    I PXE boot USFF boxes and use them as NASs, print over the wire,
    serve my SAS and SCSI drives via a SAN, etc. It's a big win when
    you have multiple machines that could want to access those resources
    (and connector/cable wear-and-tear can become a latent problem)

    Cloning a previous HDD from 2016 (ouch!) in order to restore last
    back-up.

    If this boots the PC into a power-off situation, it will be a
    stickler.

    That;s where windows sucks big time! I can *pull* a disk from a
    *BSD box and install it in another BSD box and not have to worry
    about the "changed hardware" upsetting the kernel.

    Likewise with applications; no need to worry about apps that
    weave themselves into the system! "rm -r /app_directory"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Mon Apr 18 18:07:49 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:04:12 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    <snip>
    Cloning a previous HDD from 2016 (ouch!) in order to restore last
    back-up.

    If this boots the PC into a power-off situation, it will be a
    stickler.

    That;s where windows sucks big time! I can *pull* a disk from a
    *BSD box and install it in another BSD box and not have to worry
    about the "changed hardware" upsetting the kernel.

    Likewise with applications; no need to worry about apps that
    weave themselves into the system! "rm -r /app_directory"

    Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
    and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

    Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
    responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
    they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

    Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
    to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

    Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Mon Apr 18 15:28:12 2022
    On 4/18/2022 3:07 PM, legg wrote:
    Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
    and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

    But the MB is known good?

    Did it seem to deliberately shut itself down? Or, just "die"
    (e.g., like a power supply shutting down due to load)?
    IIRC, the "4 second shutdown" is (was?) implemented in hardware;
    that can be a low-end figure for how long you might expect the
    system to stay up, at a minimum.

    Remove all loads (disks, PCI/PCIe/etc. cards). Remove *memory*.
    EXPECT it to complain about "no memory" when it boots. If this
    doesn't happen, then the fundamentals aren't working.

    [You can also pull the CPU and some MBs will signal an error
    based on that, as well]

    Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
    responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
    they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

    If it was at 4 seconds, you could hypothesize the power button
    was "stuck"/shorted/miswired (one problem I've seen with generic
    MBs is the sheer number of connections that have to be made...
    disk activity indicator, power button, reset (sometimes), pigtails
    to USB and serial ports, etc.

    Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
    to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

    For the hell of it, try removing the processor to see if it alerts.
    Or, if the symptoms change.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

    Unplug it for the time being. Easy to check that on another machine
    (I prefer a USB enclosure so the disk is isolated from the test machines
    power, SATA controller, etc.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Tue Apr 19 07:23:50 2022
    On 2022-04-18, Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
    the problem. None of them worked.

    This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.

    I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
    only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.

    The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
    would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
    cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
    it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
    with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.

    Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
    been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
    are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.

    Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
    spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.

    Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
    implementation are usually hardware related.

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    If you have an expensive one, maybe, I think the cheap ones have a
    mask ROM.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Tue Apr 19 13:48:40 2022
    On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
    the problem. None of them worked.

    This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.

    I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
    only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.

    The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
    would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
    cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
    it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
    with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.

    Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
    been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
    are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.

    Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
    spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.

    Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
    implementation are usually hardware related.

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of
    magnitude.


    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Apr 19 12:14:58 2022
    On 4/19/2022 5:48 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
    cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
    the problem. None of them worked.

    This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.

    I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
    only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.

    The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
    would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
    cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
    it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
    with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.

    Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has >>> been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There >>> are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.

    Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
    spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.

    Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
    implementation are usually hardware related.

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of magnitude.

    Or anything else that can generate multiple/spurious events.
    I've seen USB devices disconnect and reconnect, repeatedly, without
    "human intervention". This could be a problem *in* the device
    (intermittent connection, failing power, firmware bug) *or* in the
    host (perhaps a lack of resources that cause a repeated attempt
    to reconnect after aborting the previous connection).

    [I just discarded a thumb drive that behaved in this way. I'm pretty sure
    it is a mechanical issue -- broken solder joint? -- as I can make things
    better or worse by applying pressure to the device while it is installed
    (but I have no desire to keep my finger on a drive just to use it "reliably"]

    Surely simple to test if a device *is* the source of a problem (remove, replace, verify, reinstall) -- though by no means a guarantee given the
    number of variables that can come into play in the software.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Tue Apr 19 21:17:19 2022
    In article <t3n1nr$8bf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    [I just discarded a thumb drive that behaved in this way. I'm pretty sure
    it is a mechanical issue -- broken solder joint? -- as I can make things >better or worse by applying pressure to the device while it is installed
    (but I have no desire to keep my finger on a drive just to use it "reliably"]

    Finger?

    You should be keeping a *thumb* on it. That's why it's called a thumb drive! ;)



    --
    --------------------------------------+------------------------------------ Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Wed Apr 20 08:16:57 2022
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
    Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Changing the motherboard and loading the most recent backup solved the
    problem and allowed me to get back online.

    Changing the motherboard showed the problem was not with the system. Changing the keyboard solved the problem. Can you write into the keyboard prom?

    You can "write" or send data to any USB device. reading and writing data
    is required for USB to work, period. Negotiation is required unlike
    something more passive like RS-232 where you could just start sending data
    out of the blue in 3 wire mode.

    Do keyboards have a nonvolatile memory you can write to? I haven't seen
    one you can write to, but there's nothing stopping you from making one
    that is writable. You could probably collected data on the keyboard
    with some crafty use of the scroll lock indicator, since this is set on
    the computer itself.

    Unless it has a hub or enumerates at some other device, it will still just
    be a keyboard, or any weird flavot of a HID.

    If you really want to test for a stuck key or other brokenness, boot a
    runtime linux and run the "showkey --scancodes" command. It will show what
    the keyboard is sending. Scan codes are completely different for USB than
    for PS/2 keyboards.

    FWIW, the way linux and windows handle USB keyboards is different in odd
    ways. I've written keyboard emulators that worked fine with windows, but
    needed timing adjustments to work with linux. There are also variations in
    how various keyboards send data. Windows is real tolerant so there's no effective difference unless you're really looking for it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to TTman on Wed Apr 20 21:52:14 2022
    TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:t3j7hd$h2v$1@dont-email.me:

    On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
    I recently ran into a major problem.

    I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube.
    This cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try
    to solve the problem. None of them worked.

    I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT
    firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was
    not necessary and I disabled it.

    A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I
    tried to reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and
    continually reboot itself.

    I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This
    did not help.

    I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could
    cause the problem.

    But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered,
    you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on
    signal, someone would have found it by now.

    I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since
    any information disappears when power is turned off.

    I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only
    contains 64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This
    did not help.

    The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced
    it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.

    1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the
    keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to
    map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of
    writeable memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.

    2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be
    deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the
    most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of
    the DOS days? It showed up when there was no keyboard connected!

    Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd
    drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on
    the drive and it would not boot. I replaced it with a backup and
    this enabled me to get back on line.

    Recommendations:

    1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
    2. Turn on Windows firewall.
    3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

    Good Luck.



    are you related to Skybuck ?



    Brilliant.

    And oh... that was a troll post.
    IF a "ChkDsk finds "problems" on an SSD...

    The SSD is blown. Probably from stupid use of ChkDsk way too many
    times or even an idiot "defragging" his drive. Neither of which is
    needed on an SSD. Ever.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Apr 24 06:54:53 2022
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:

    [...]

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of magnitude.

    I have had plenty of stuck keys. I tried to check by pressing all the keys to see if one was stuck on or jammed. None were.

    A fault with the Enter key is possible, but it would scroll the screen up.
    This problem is completely different. The entire screen flashes then flashes again. What key would do that?



    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Sun Apr 24 09:25:36 2022
    On 24/04/2022 07:54, Mike Monett wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:

    [...]

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of
    magnitude.

    I have had plenty of stuck keys. I tried to check by pressing all the keys to see if one was stuck on or jammed. None were.

    A fault with the Enter key is possible, but it would scroll the screen up. This problem is completely different. The entire screen flashes then flashes again. What key would do that?

    The "clear screen" key perhaps?

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Apr 24 02:03:01 2022
    On 4/24/2022 1:25 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 24/04/2022 07:54, Mike Monett wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:

    [...]

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of
    magnitude.
    I have had plenty of stuck keys. I tried to check by pressing all the keys to
    see if one was stuck on or jammed. None were.

    A fault with the Enter key is possible, but it would scroll the screen up. >> This problem is completely different. The entire screen flashes then flashes >> again. What key would do that?

    The "clear screen" key perhaps?

    Or, a keyboard malfunctioning in a way that breaks its contract with the
    BIOS (this is preboot, right?). Programmers are notoriously bad at imagining how hardware can fail and coding defensively enough to protect their systems.

    A behaving keyboard is a trivial design -- up, down, repeat. So, equally trivial expectations of what that keyboard will deliver to the PC.

    [I've got a keyboard that is often "not recognized" by it's PC -- until
    Windows starts. I.e., none of the indicators illuminate (nor does the ball-less mouse). This makes for some interesting conditions when you want
    to interrupt the boot process beyond opting for an alternate boot device
    (which the boot order will already handle)!]

    Of course, one should be able to make the problem appear and disappear,
    ON DEMAND, just by replugging the suspect keyboard. And, if the problem
    did NOT reappear, that casts suspicion on whether or not the keyboard
    *was* the source of the problem (and not a bad connection, noisy power, "gremlins", etc.).

    I had a disk drive *appear* to fail, recently. I pulled it. Recovered
    its contents. Then, put it on my "sanitizer" -- to scrub it clean AND
    give me an assessment of it's reliability (the sanitizer is intended to "qualify" drives for reuse, purging them of their contents before that).
    It passed with flying colors! It's back in the machine, waiting to see
    if the machine misbehaves, again.

    When I get a chance, I'll open the machine and check caps, supplies, pull/reseat memory, processor, etc. But, after a ~week running 24/7,
    it is still purring nicely!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Apr 24 22:54:32 2022
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 24/04/2022 07:54, Mike Monett wrote:
    Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:

    [...]

    This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

    I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of
    magnitude.

    I have had plenty of stuck keys. I tried to check by pressing all the
    keys to see if one was stuck on or jammed. None were.

    A fault with the Enter key is possible, but it would scroll the screen
    up. This problem is completely different. The entire screen flashes
    then flashes again. What key would do that?

    The "clear screen" key perhaps?

    That appears to be a hidden key on the keyboard, although it appears in DOS
    and all versions of windows starting with 95 as CLS. But it actually clears
    the screen and only leaves a prompt.



    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Tue Apr 26 20:12:48 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:28:12 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/18/2022 3:07 PM, legg wrote:
    Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
    and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

    But the MB is known good?

    Did it seem to deliberately shut itself down? Or, just "die"
    (e.g., like a power supply shutting down due to load)?
    IIRC, the "4 second shutdown" is (was?) implemented in hardware;
    that can be a low-end figure for how long you might expect the
    system to stay up, at a minimum.

    Remove all loads (disks, PCI/PCIe/etc. cards). Remove *memory*.
    EXPECT it to complain about "no memory" when it boots. If this
    doesn't happen, then the fundamentals aren't working.

    [You can also pull the CPU and some MBs will signal an error
    based on that, as well]

    Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
    responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
    they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

    If it was at 4 seconds, you could hypothesize the power button
    was "stuck"/shorted/miswired (one problem I've seen with generic
    MBs is the sheer number of connections that have to be made...
    disk activity indicator, power button, reset (sometimes), pigtails
    to USB and serial ports, etc.

    Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
    to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

    For the hell of it, try removing the processor to see if it alerts.
    Or, if the symptoms change.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

    Unplug it for the time being. Easy to check that on another machine
    (I prefer a USB enclosure so the disk is isolated from the test machines >power, SATA controller, etc.)

    Well, it's not the processor (swapped out) or bios (reflashed).
    Re-cycled PSU, in the off-chance that the new one was to blame,
    but made no difference. Optical drive has failed in the meantime.
    Rechecked harnessing. Reran memtest.

    Am at point where I'm reinstalling OS fresh with each attempt.
    Gets to the time zone and password settings, then shuts off
    in the next process (of hardware enumeration?).

    Time to shut it down for good.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Wed Apr 27 02:32:56 2022
    On 4/26/2022 5:12 PM, legg wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:28:12 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/18/2022 3:07 PM, legg wrote:
    Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
    and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

    But the MB is known good?

    Did it seem to deliberately shut itself down? Or, just "die"
    (e.g., like a power supply shutting down due to load)?
    IIRC, the "4 second shutdown" is (was?) implemented in hardware;
    that can be a low-end figure for how long you might expect the
    system to stay up, at a minimum.

    Remove all loads (disks, PCI/PCIe/etc. cards). Remove *memory*.
    EXPECT it to complain about "no memory" when it boots. If this
    doesn't happen, then the fundamentals aren't working.

    [You can also pull the CPU and some MBs will signal an error
    based on that, as well]

    Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
    responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
    they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

    If it was at 4 seconds, you could hypothesize the power button
    was "stuck"/shorted/miswired (one problem I've seen with generic
    MBs is the sheer number of connections that have to be made...
    disk activity indicator, power button, reset (sometimes), pigtails
    to USB and serial ports, etc.

    Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
    to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

    For the hell of it, try removing the processor to see if it alerts.
    Or, if the symptoms change.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

    Unplug it for the time being. Easy to check that on another machine
    (I prefer a USB enclosure so the disk is isolated from the test machines
    power, SATA controller, etc.)

    Well, it's not the processor (swapped out) or bios (reflashed).
    Re-cycled PSU, in the off-chance that the new one was to blame,
    but made no difference. Optical drive has failed in the meantime.
    Rechecked harnessing. Reran memtest.

    Could be a bad solder joint, broken trace, etc. Too much trouble
    to chase down, definitively.

    Am at point where I'm reinstalling OS fresh with each attempt.
    Gets to the time zone and password settings, then shuts off
    in the next process (of hardware enumeration?).

    Ah. If you'd been able to install it successfully *once*, then
    taking an image would save you the trouble of going through MS's
    painfully slow installer.

    Time to shut it down for good.

    Yup. Take it out back and shoot it.

    Nowadays, most machines aren't very expensive to replace. All
    the real "value" is whatever YOU have added to the disk drive...

    I've very little patience for tools that don't perform as expected.
    Hardware is usually pretty easy to identify as faulty (swap out, try
    a second instance, etc.). Software is a PITA as you tend to be
    dependent on the supplier to fix bugs. And, most suppliers' process
    is to just give you a NEWER set of bugs!

    Moral: identify quirky behavior and discover ways to work around it
    or compensate for it instead of perpetually replacing one known
    behavior with a new yet-to-be-known behavior!

    ["Update? No thank you..."]

    Take the opportunity to "treat yourself" :>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Apr 27 02:57:33 2022
    On Wednesday, 27 April 2022 at 10:33:13 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/26/2022 5:12 PM, legg wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:28:12 -0700, Don Y
    <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/18/2022 3:07 PM, legg wrote:
    Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
    and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

    But the MB is known good?

    Did it seem to deliberately shut itself down? Or, just "die"
    (e.g., like a power supply shutting down due to load)?
    IIRC, the "4 second shutdown" is (was?) implemented in hardware;
    that can be a low-end figure for how long you might expect the
    system to stay up, at a minimum.

    Remove all loads (disks, PCI/PCIe/etc. cards). Remove *memory*.
    EXPECT it to complain about "no memory" when it boots. If this
    doesn't happen, then the fundamentals aren't working.

    [You can also pull the CPU and some MBs will signal an error
    based on that, as well]

    Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
    responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
    they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

    If it was at 4 seconds, you could hypothesize the power button
    was "stuck"/shorted/miswired (one problem I've seen with generic
    MBs is the sheer number of connections that have to be made...
    disk activity indicator, power button, reset (sometimes), pigtails
    to USB and serial ports, etc.

    Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
    to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

    For the hell of it, try removing the processor to see if it alerts.
    Or, if the symptoms change.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

    Unplug it for the time being. Easy to check that on another machine
    (I prefer a USB enclosure so the disk is isolated from the test machines >> power, SATA controller, etc.)

    Well, it's not the processor (swapped out) or bios (reflashed).
    Re-cycled PSU, in the off-chance that the new one was to blame,
    but made no difference. Optical drive has failed in the meantime.
    Rechecked harnessing. Reran memtest.
    Could be a bad solder joint, broken trace, etc. Too much trouble
    to chase down, definitively.
    Am at point where I'm reinstalling OS fresh with each attempt.
    Gets to the time zone and password settings, then shuts off
    in the next process (of hardware enumeration?).
    Ah. If you'd been able to install it successfully *once*, then
    taking an image would save you the trouble of going through MS's
    painfully slow installer.
    Time to shut it down for good.
    Yup. Take it out back and shoot it.

    Nowadays, most machines aren't very expensive to replace. All
    the real "value" is whatever YOU have added to the disk drive...

    I've very little patience for tools that don't perform as expected.
    Hardware is usually pretty easy to identify as faulty (swap out, try
    a second instance, etc.). Software is a PITA as you tend to be
    dependent on the supplier to fix bugs. And, most suppliers' process
    is to just give you a NEWER set of bugs!

    Moral: identify quirky behavior and discover ways to work around it
    or compensate for it instead of perpetually replacing one known
    behavior with a new yet-to-be-known behavior!

    ["Update? No thank you..."]

    Take the opportunity to "treat yourself" :>

    One of the weirdest hardware oddities is an industrial motherboard
    (with soldered in cpu) that appears to work fine with Windows but will
    not complete the installation process for Linux (I tried several varieties). Its definitely not the memory or power supply or BIOS version or settings
    (or the keyboard).
    Needless to say I don't trust it running Windows either so its on my
    scrap pile. I have another one, bought at the same time and configured identically, which works fine with both.
    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Wed Apr 27 03:31:32 2022
    On 4/27/2022 2:57 AM, John Walliker wrote:
    One of the weirdest hardware oddities is an industrial motherboard
    (with soldered in cpu) that appears to work fine with Windows but will
    not complete the installation process for Linux (I tried several varieties). Its definitely not the memory or power supply or BIOS version or settings
    (or the keyboard).

    Windows tries very hard NOT to complain about hardware. I guess the
    thinking is that the user wouldn't be able to do much *if* it complained.
    And, would likely see *windows* as The Problem.

    Often, the only way to expose a hardware problem, in Windows, is to
    go *looking* for it (logs, etc.). Even "failures" tend to be "polite"
    (write error; your data is lost!)

    OTOH, my UN*X boxen tend to complain, more, when they encounter
    odd situations (like an intermittent SCSI cable). I suspect the
    folks coding them weren't as tolerant of "unexpected events".

    Needless to say I don't trust it running Windows either so its on my
    scrap pile. I have another one, bought at the same time and configured identically, which works fine with both.

    Yeah, if you've *seen* it screwup, how can you rationalize ignoring
    that fact?

    I've got an AiO that I use as a "console" to talk to my archive/repository.
    It misbehaved, recently. Suspecting a failing disk, I replaced that.
    But, then determined the original disk to be functioning properly
    (so, the problem lies elsewhere!)

    OTOH, as it is simply taking typed commands and passing them along
    to another node on the network, it is very unlikely that it will
    "silently" corrupt some of my SQL in a way that the other node
    won't detect as incorrect. And, simultaneously corrupt the
    reply from that node in such a way that I won't consider it
    suspect!

    (i.e., if it screws up, again, I'll be there to witness it!)

    I've always shuddered when I hear folks overclocking machines
    or using recapped motherboards; how do you know the system is
    really working as intended, now? If you rendered a 3D object,
    would you be able to tell if it messed up one of 100,000 polygons?
    Two? Five hundred??

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Apr 27 04:53:28 2022
    On Wednesday, 27 April 2022 at 11:31:52 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 2:57 AM, John Walliker wrote:

    I've always shuddered when I hear folks overclocking machines
    or using recapped motherboards; how do you know the system is
    really working as intended, now? If you rendered a 3D object,
    would you be able to tell if it messed up one of 100,000 polygons?
    Two? Five hundred??

    I once had a PC/AT clone motherboard where the supplier had changed the
    main clock oscillator for a faster one. It worked fine for nearly everything, but a multi-channel audio acquisition board I had designed did not work properly. It turned out that the setup and hold times were completely
    wrong on the DMA channels so my hardware failed. After I replaced the oscillator with one having the correct frequency everything was fine again.
    In contrast, I once needed to use a TMS320C51 DSP at a combination of
    power supply voltage and clock frequency that was not allowed in the data
    sheet rules, but which looked as if it should work reliably. It was a medical application. In those days, TI had good technical support in the UK and I was given some test code which exercised the critical timing paths that were known to be the most likely to fail under voltage or frequency stress conditions. This was built into the power-on startup code, so each device was known to be happy with its operating conditions at that point.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Apr 27 10:35:42 2022
    On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 02:32:56 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/26/2022 5:12 PM, legg wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:28:12 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/18/2022 3:07 PM, legg wrote:
    Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
    and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

    But the MB is known good?

    Did it seem to deliberately shut itself down? Or, just "die"
    (e.g., like a power supply shutting down due to load)?
    IIRC, the "4 second shutdown" is (was?) implemented in hardware;
    that can be a low-end figure for how long you might expect the
    system to stay up, at a minimum.

    Remove all loads (disks, PCI/PCIe/etc. cards). Remove *memory*.
    EXPECT it to complain about "no memory" when it boots. If this
    doesn't happen, then the fundamentals aren't working.

    [You can also pull the CPU and some MBs will signal an error
    based on that, as well]

    Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
    responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
    they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

    If it was at 4 seconds, you could hypothesize the power button
    was "stuck"/shorted/miswired (one problem I've seen with generic
    MBs is the sheer number of connections that have to be made...
    disk activity indicator, power button, reset (sometimes), pigtails
    to USB and serial ports, etc.

    Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
    to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

    For the hell of it, try removing the processor to see if it alerts.
    Or, if the symptoms change.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

    Unplug it for the time being. Easy to check that on another machine
    (I prefer a USB enclosure so the disk is isolated from the test machines >>> power, SATA controller, etc.)

    Well, it's not the processor (swapped out) or bios (reflashed).
    Re-cycled PSU, in the off-chance that the new one was to blame,
    but made no difference. Optical drive has failed in the meantime.
    Rechecked harnessing. Reran memtest.

    Could be a bad solder joint, broken trace, etc. Too much trouble
    to chase down, definitively.

    Am at point where I'm reinstalling OS fresh with each attempt.
    Gets to the time zone and password settings, then shuts off
    in the next process (of hardware enumeration?).

    Ah. If you'd been able to install it successfully *once*, then
    taking an image would save you the trouble of going through MS's
    painfully slow installer.

    Time to shut it down for good.

    Yup. Take it out back and shoot it.

    Nowadays, most machines aren't very expensive to replace. All
    the real "value" is whatever YOU have added to the disk drive...

    Just trying to get it safe enough to stick a system HDD into it.
    It already ate one. The back-up will not work in new hardware,
    but I guess there's no choice. In cat years, it's no spring
    chicken. The LXLE dual-boot was intended to nurse the thing
    into it's golden years . . .was just teaching LXLE to print.
    Brings a tear to the eye.

    A HDD is a place to stick your data, until it 'goes'. HDD rel
    has seemed to improve for me, particularly since the adoption
    of SATA. Sticking a reliable HDD into junk doesn't raise the
    reliability of the junk.

    A lot of things are built on crumbly foundations these days.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Wed Apr 27 12:30:29 2022
    On 4/27/2022 4:53 AM, John Walliker wrote:
    On Wednesday, 27 April 2022 at 11:31:52 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 2:57 AM, John Walliker wrote:

    I've always shuddered when I hear folks overclocking machines
    or using recapped motherboards; how do you know the system is
    really working as intended, now? If you rendered a 3D object,
    would you be able to tell if it messed up one of 100,000 polygons?
    Two? Five hundred??

    I once had a PC/AT clone motherboard where the supplier had changed the
    main clock oscillator for a faster one. It worked fine for nearly everything,
    but a multi-channel audio acquisition board I had designed did not work properly. It turned out that the setup and hold times were completely
    wrong on the DMA channels so my hardware failed.

    Be thankful it was a hard/observable failure! Imagine if it had been intermittent -- plaguing your product "in the field"!

    After I replaced the
    oscillator with one having the correct frequency everything was fine again. In contrast, I once needed to use a TMS320C51 DSP at a combination of
    power supply voltage and clock frequency that was not allowed in the data sheet rules, but which looked as if it should work reliably. It was a medical
    application. In those days, TI had good technical support in the UK and I was
    given some test code which exercised the critical timing paths that were known
    to be the most likely to fail under voltage or frequency stress conditions. This was built into the power-on startup code, so each device was known to be happy with its operating conditions at that point.

    You've more guts than I. I like being able to point to a document and
    prove that my design is 100% compliant so any "problems" lie in the components being used. (regardless of temperature, power supply noise, etc.)

    I like to dick with RESET on processors as it often lets me implement
    special features cheaply. But, RESET is often a poorly defined event.
    I can empirically verify that a particular design MIGHT work... but, have
    no guarantee that some mask revision won't break my solution.

    Give me something that I can hang my hat on to justify to boss/client/customer that my approach has addressed due diligence... or, I'll look for another, better documented device -- or approach.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Wed Apr 27 13:18:24 2022
    On 4/27/2022 7:35 AM, legg wrote:
    Nowadays, most machines aren't very expensive to replace. All
    the real "value" is whatever YOU have added to the disk drive...

    Just trying to get it safe enough to stick a system HDD into it.

    What is your goal AFTER that? Are you trying to recover data from
    some OTHER drive present in the system? Or, are you hoping to
    actually USE the system once the system drive is installed?

    I keep external USB drive enclosures (and/or "docks") on hand
    to let me "mount" a drive on some other system -- without
    worrying about how the drive will dick with the hardware *in*
    that system. If the drive has a problem, then the DRIVE has a
    problem, not the system that I'm using to examine it.

    It already ate one. The back-up will not work in new hardware,

    PATA vs SATA? (hence the value of keeping external USB drives
    around as "test fixtures")

    but I guess there's no choice. In cat years, it's no spring
    chicken. The LXLE dual-boot was intended to nurse the thing
    into it's golden years . . .was just teaching LXLE to print.
    Brings a tear to the eye.

    A HDD is a place to stick your data, until it 'goes'. HDD rel
    has seemed to improve for me, particularly since the adoption
    of SATA.

    I still have small (megabyte!) IDE disks that power some of my
    older (collectable) kit. But, the total PoHr stays low because
    they don't see much use. And, as they are so small, it is easy to
    keep an image of the entire system around -- on something
    as small as a CD-ROM! <frown>

    Newer drives (in my workstations) tend to run 24/7/365 so I'm
    potentially at more risk. But, most of the content on my
    machines is "applications" and "libraries" (of sorts). Which
    can be restored from their originals, if need be.

    Sticking a reliable HDD into junk doesn't raise the
    reliability of the junk.

    Consider moving the media into a NAS or SAN? The advantage being
    that you can share the media "for free".

    A lot of things are built on crumbly foundations these days.

    People want features, not reliability.

    And, developers often find improving reliability/robustness to
    be "interesting" -- compared to starting off in some NEW direction
    (on a new, half-baked feature).

    My solution has been to "settle" for something known. And, then
    replicate it so I'm not reliant on a single unit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Thu Apr 28 14:01:44 2022
    On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:18:24 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/27/2022 7:35 AM, legg wrote:
    Nowadays, most machines aren't very expensive to replace. All
    the real "value" is whatever YOU have added to the disk drive...

    Just trying to get it safe enough to stick a system HDD into it.

    What is your goal AFTER that? Are you trying to recover data from
    some OTHER drive present in the system? Or, are you hoping to
    actually USE the system once the system drive is installed?

    I keep external USB drive enclosures (and/or "docks") on hand
    to let me "mount" a drive on some other system -- without
    worrying about how the drive will dick with the hardware *in*
    that system. If the drive has a problem, then the DRIVE has a
    problem, not the system that I'm using to examine it.

    It already ate one. The back-up will not work in new hardware,

    PATA vs SATA? (hence the value of keeping external USB drives
    around as "test fixtures")

    but I guess there's no choice. In cat years, it's no spring
    chicken. The LXLE dual-boot was intended to nurse the thing
    into it's golden years . . .was just teaching LXLE to print.
    Brings a tear to the eye.

    A HDD is a place to stick your data, until it 'goes'. HDD rel
    has seemed to improve for me, particularly since the adoption
    of SATA.

    I still have small (megabyte!) IDE disks that power some of my
    older (collectable) kit. But, the total PoHr stays low because
    they don't see much use. And, as they are so small, it is easy to
    keep an image of the entire system around -- on something
    as small as a CD-ROM! <frown>


    I'm developing an aversion to attempting an LXLE dual boot system
    (with an MS OS). I'm looking at my HDD morgue and now see 4 dead
    HDD associated with such an endeavor.

    Two were in Dell refurbs - now both still running with non-dual
    boot clones (WXP)in 2020, The other two are from this attempt
    in the PC Chips A13G+ v3.0 home-brew (W2K). This is now officially
    junk.

    There are only two things in common; LXLE and me.

    A Ubuntu single or dual boot (it doesn't seem to care -
    on separate hard drives) is still in progress.

    Meanwhile, other obligations call.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Thu Apr 28 11:27:08 2022
    On 4/28/2022 11:01 AM, legg wrote:
    I'm developing an aversion to attempting an LXLE dual boot system
    (with an MS OS). I'm looking at my HDD morgue and now see 4 dead
    HDD associated with such an endeavor.

    I'm having a hard time thinking that they are truly *dead* (as in
    "scrap"). Have you tried:
    dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/r<drivedevice> bs=1024k count=100
    just to ensure there's no cruft on it -- esp the boot/MBR area?

    Two were in Dell refurbs - now both still running with non-dual
    boot clones (WXP)in 2020, The other two are from this attempt
    in the PC Chips A13G+ v3.0 home-brew (W2K). This is now officially
    junk.

    There are only two things in common; LXLE and me.

    A Ubuntu single or dual boot (it doesn't seem to care -
    on separate hard drives) is still in progress.

    I used to run a "quad boot" tower -- {Net,Open,Free}BSD
    (not a fan of Linux, nor its license!) plus Windows -- when
    I was writing drivers. Back then, a 4G drive was $1K so
    it was easier to put 4 of them in a box than to try to
    share a single drive.

    Now, I have a clean demarcation between boxes. It's a
    Windows box or a Sun box or a *BSD box... but never more
    than one.

    You might consider running your non-windows boxen headless
    and installing an X server *under* Windows. Or, a bunch of
    VMs. I run an ESXi server for my VMs -- so any workstation
    can run any VM, served over the wire. Or, copy the VMDK onto
    the host and run it locally if A/V performance is an issue.
    (my VMs are on a big SAN)

    Bottom line: figure out how to REDUCE your sysadmin tasks
    and the time wasted on them.

    Meanwhile, other obligations call.

    Always! It's a wonder we get ANYTHING done!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Apr 28 18:51:09 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 4/28/2022 11:01 AM, legg wrote:
    I'm developing an aversion to attempting an LXLE dual boot system
    (with an MS OS). I'm looking at my HDD morgue and now see 4 dead
    HDD associated with such an endeavor.

    I'm having a hard time thinking that they are truly *dead* (as in
    "scrap"). Have you tried:
    dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/r<drivedevice> bs=1024k count=100
    just to ensure there's no cruft on it -- esp the boot/MBR area?

    Two were in Dell refurbs - now both still running with non-dual
    boot clones (WXP)in 2020, The other two are from this attempt
    in the PC Chips A13G+ v3.0 home-brew (W2K). This is now officially
    junk.

    There are only two things in common; LXLE and me.

    A Ubuntu single or dual boot (it doesn't seem to care -
    on separate hard drives) is still in progress.

    I used to run a "quad boot" tower -- {Net,Open,Free}BSD
    (not a fan of Linux, nor its license!) plus Windows -- when
    I was writing drivers. Back then, a 4G drive was $1K so
    it was easier to put 4 of them in a box than to try to
    share a single drive.

    Now, I have a clean demarcation between boxes. It's a
    Windows box or a Sun box or a *BSD box... but never more
    than one.

    You might consider running your non-windows boxen headless
    and installing an X server *under* Windows. Or, a bunch of

    No, don't run X. X is garbage, always has been, always will be.

    VMs. I run an ESXi server for my VMs -- so any workstation
    can run any VM, served over the wire. Or, copy the VMDK onto
    the host and run it locally if A/V performance is an issue.
    (my VMs are on a big SAN)

    Lol, this clown has a "big SAN", but can't quite tackle NTP yet.

    Bottom line: figure out how to REDUCE your sysadmin tasks
    and the time wasted on them.

    Say the guy running a "sun box", which is likely some 22 year old piece of
    shit with no networking enabled.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Apr 29 10:04:23 2022
    On Wednesday, 27 April 2022 at 20:33:52 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 4:53 AM, John Walliker wrote:

    In contrast, I once needed to use a TMS320C51 DSP at a combination of
    power supply voltage and clock frequency that was not allowed in the data sheet rules, but which looked as if it should work reliably. It was a medical
    application. In those days, TI had good technical support in the UK and I was
    given some test code which exercised the critical timing paths that were known
    to be the most likely to fail under voltage or frequency stress conditions. This was built into the power-on startup code, so each device was known to be
    happy with its operating conditions at that point.
    You've more guts than I. I like being able to point to a document and
    prove that my design is 100% compliant so any "problems" lie in the components
    being used. (regardless of temperature, power supply noise, etc.)

    This was a research project with less than 100 units being made and they were all under our control. There was no alternative device at that time that met our
    other constraints, so the choice was to make the best of what we had or do nothing.
    The fundamental problem was that TI had specified maximum clock frequencies
    at a couple of different supply voltages. We needed to operate at an intermediate
    voltage and intermediate clock frequency. The code was the same as TI used
    for production testing, so I don't think it was particularly risky - quite the opposite.
    ...
    Give me something that I can hang my hat on to justify to boss/client/customer
    that my approach has addressed due diligence... or, I'll look for another, better documented device -- or approach.

    In an ideal world, yes, definitely.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to presence@MUNGEpanix.com on Fri Apr 29 15:50:10 2022
    On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:51:09 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 4/28/2022 11:01 AM, legg wrote:
    I'm developing an aversion to attempting an LXLE dual boot system
    (with an MS OS). I'm looking at my HDD morgue and now see 4 dead
    HDD associated with such an endeavor.

    I'm having a hard time thinking that they are truly *dead* (as in
    "scrap"). Have you tried:
    dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/r<drivedevice> bs=1024k count=100
    just to ensure there's no cruft on it -- esp the boot/MBR area?

    Two were in Dell refurbs - now both still running with non-dual
    boot clones (WXP)in 2020, The other two are from this attempt
    in the PC Chips A13G+ v3.0 home-brew (W2K). This is now officially
    junk.

    There are only two things in common; LXLE and me.

    A Ubuntu single or dual boot (it doesn't seem to care -
    on separate hard drives) is still in progress.

    I used to run a "quad boot" tower -- {Net,Open,Free}BSD
    (not a fan of Linux, nor its license!) plus Windows -- when
    I was writing drivers. Back then, a 4G drive was $1K so
    it was easier to put 4 of them in a box than to try to
    share a single drive.

    Now, I have a clean demarcation between boxes. It's a
    Windows box or a Sun box or a *BSD box... but never more
    than one.

    You might consider running your non-windows boxen headless
    and installing an X server *under* Windows. Or, a bunch of

    No, don't run X. X is garbage, always has been, always will be.

    VMs. I run an ESXi server for my VMs -- so any workstation
    can run any VM, served over the wire. Or, copy the VMDK onto
    the host and run it locally if A/V performance is an issue.
    (my VMs are on a big SAN)

    Lol, this clown has a "big SAN", but can't quite tackle NTP yet.

    Bottom line: figure out how to REDUCE your sysadmin tasks
    and the time wasted on them.

    Say the guy running a "sun box", which is likely some 22 year old piece of >shit with no networking enabled.


    I have not been following this thread very closely, but I will add one
    details: The source code for NTP is publicly available at NTP.org, is
    about 70,000 lines of plain C code, and have become a bit convoluted
    over the years. It would take a solid year to become reasonable
    familiar with that bit of code.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to John Walliker on Fri Apr 29 13:38:38 2022
    On 4/29/2022 10:04 AM, John Walliker wrote:
    On Wednesday, 27 April 2022 at 20:33:52 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/27/2022 4:53 AM, John Walliker wrote:

    You've more guts than I. I like being able to point to a document and
    prove that my design is 100% compliant so any "problems" lie in the components
    being used. (regardless of temperature, power supply noise, etc.)

    This was a research project with less than 100 units being made and they were all under our control. There was no alternative device at that time that met our
    other constraints, so the choice was to make the best of what we had or do nothing.

    Ah. I often have had to make "proof of concept" prototypes -- but, the approach that I took had to be able to move into manufacturing without significant redesign. So, I had to be able to defend the design as
    ready for manufacturing.

    Other designs were intended for manufacture so not a good strategy to
    "hope" for something that isn't published (my contracts provide "free"
    fixes, indefinitely -- but, only for things that I have control over!)

    The fundamental problem was that TI had specified maximum clock frequencies at a couple of different supply voltages. We needed to operate at an intermediate
    voltage and intermediate clock frequency. The code was the same as TI used for production testing, so I don't think it was particularly risky - quite the opposite.

    OK, so you just wanted another point on an already bounded curve.
    You weren't trying to look beyond the horizon...

    Give me something that I can hang my hat on to justify to boss/client/customer
    that my approach has addressed due diligence... or, I'll look for another, >> better documented device -- or approach.

    In an ideal world, yes, definitely.

    It needn't be an "ideal" world -- just one in which I am comfortable dotting i's and crossing t's. Warts are fine -- as long as they are visible and acknowledged.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Thu May 5 15:57:47 2022
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:51:09 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 4/28/2022 11:01 AM, legg wrote:
    I'm developing an aversion to attempting an LXLE dual boot system
    (with an MS OS). I'm looking at my HDD morgue and now see 4 dead
    HDD associated with such an endeavor.

    I'm having a hard time thinking that they are truly *dead* (as in
    "scrap"). Have you tried:
    dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/r<drivedevice> bs=1024k count=100
    just to ensure there's no cruft on it -- esp the boot/MBR area?

    Two were in Dell refurbs - now both still running with non-dual
    boot clones (WXP)in 2020, The other two are from this attempt
    in the PC Chips A13G+ v3.0 home-brew (W2K). This is now officially
    junk.

    There are only two things in common; LXLE and me.

    A Ubuntu single or dual boot (it doesn't seem to care -
    on separate hard drives) is still in progress.

    I used to run a "quad boot" tower -- {Net,Open,Free}BSD
    (not a fan of Linux, nor its license!) plus Windows -- when
    I was writing drivers. Back then, a 4G drive was $1K so
    it was easier to put 4 of them in a box than to try to
    share a single drive.

    Now, I have a clean demarcation between boxes. It's a
    Windows box or a Sun box or a *BSD box... but never more
    than one.

    You might consider running your non-windows boxen headless
    and installing an X server *under* Windows. Or, a bunch of

    No, don't run X. X is garbage, always has been, always will be.

    VMs. I run an ESXi server for my VMs -- so any workstation
    can run any VM, served over the wire. Or, copy the VMDK onto
    the host and run it locally if A/V performance is an issue.
    (my VMs are on a big SAN)

    Lol, this clown has a "big SAN", but can't quite tackle NTP yet.

    Bottom line: figure out how to REDUCE your sysadmin tasks
    and the time wasted on them.

    Say the guy running a "sun box", which is likely some 22 year old piece of >>shit with no networking enabled.


    I have not been following this thread very closely, but I will add one details: The source code for NTP is publicly available at NTP.org, is
    about 70,000 lines of plain C code, and have become a bit convoluted
    over the years. It would take a solid year to become reasonable
    familiar with that bit of code.

    Joe Gwinn

    You're using forte agent for your post. How many lines of code is it? Are
    you able to use the program without reading all the code?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)