• How it's made: heat sinks

    From bitrex@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 18:58:13 2022
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Apr 15 20:16:23 2022
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 18:58:13 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Most heat sinks are extruded. Some are cast, like pin fins.

    Some are machined.

    There's also a process where the fins are pressed into slots



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sat Apr 16 19:51:56 2022
    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sat Apr 16 14:05:25 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you
    can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The
    thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to presence@MUNGEpanix.com on Sat Apr 16 15:23:16 2022
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Apr 16 17:10:31 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that. Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact. Lots of surface area gives a low thermal resistance at the
    point of contact. That's the point of using them.

    It's the extruded heat sinks with much fewer fins and a lot less surface area, that require a lot more air flow to get the same thermal conductivity.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to TRicky Dickhead on Sat Apr 16 18:22:46 2022
    TRicky Dickhead wrote:

    ======================

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.
    <
    Does anyone know what he is talking about?


    ** Think so.

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity
    of the fin/air contact.

    ** How well does heat travel via a thin plate?

    It's the extruded heat sinks with much fewer fins and a lot less surface area,
    that require a lot more air flow to get the same thermal conductivity.

    ** The scived idea relies on having very many fins.
    Fewer but thicker ones, spaced widely, works just as well or better.

    Also:

    Scived heatsinks suffer the disadvantage of being limited to internal use. Extruded and cast ones are often structural parts of a case.

    Horses for courses....


    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Apr 16 20:18:57 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:10:35 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact. Lots of surface area gives a low thermal resistance at the
    point of contact. That's the point of using them.

    It's the extruded heat sinks with much fewer fins and a lot less surface area, that require a lot more air flow to get the same thermal conductivity.

    The question hangs on how much heat you have to get rid of.

    The heat capacity of air is well defined. If you need to move a lot of heat you have to heat up a lot of air and move it away as soon as it has got hot.

    Fewer fins with lots of space between them let you blast a lot more air past them than you can squeeze between the thin fins of a skived heat sink.
    If you don't need to get rid of as much heat, a slower air flow will serve, and you can get away with a less voluminous heat sink

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 12:31:52 2022
    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.


    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pallison49@gmail.com on Sun Apr 17 07:48:25 2022
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:22:46 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
    <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

    TRicky Dickhead wrote:

    ======================

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.
    <
    Does anyone know what he is talking about?


    ** Think so.

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between >> the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity
    of the fin/air contact.

    ** How well does heat travel via a thin plate?

    The sheet thermal resistance of a thin plate can be high, especially
    aluminum alloys that skive well.

    If you blow air at a thin, tall, dense array of fins, it will
    naturally prefer to go around, not through, the fins. And you'll get
    most of the air flow at the tips of the fins, not near the baseplate,
    so the thermal resistances hurt. Short skived copper fins are good if
    the air is really blasted into the fins from above, like in a CPU
    cooler.

    I've measured a lot of this stuff lately. That trumps theories.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/0kszc4nltr1q8d3/P944_HS_2.jpg?raw=1

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/iwkbuuoa4iq33a7/Mock1.jpg?raw=1

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/bz6ueadispq6ril/CPU_Cooler_Washers.jpg?raw=1




    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to robin_listas@es.invalid on Sun Apr 17 07:49:56 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 08:02:22 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:48:36 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:22:46 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
    <palli...@gmail.com> wrote:
    Rick C wrote:

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >> > a huge air blast.
    <
    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

    ** Think so.

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between
    the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity
    of the fin/air contact.

    ** How well does heat travel via a thin plate?

    More easily than through a thin layer of air - roughly a thousand times faster.

    The sheet thermal resistance of a thin plate can be high, especially aluminum alloys that skive well.

    But nowhere near as high as air.

    If you blow air at a thin, tall, dense array of fins, it will
    naturally prefer to go around, not through, the fins. And you'll get
    most of the air flow at the tips of the fins, not near the baseplate,
    so the thermal resistances hurt.

    If you have a lot of heat to shift, you need a lot of air flow. If you aren't shifting all that much heat, you don't need as much airflow.

    Short skived copper fins are good if the air is really blasted into the fins from above, like in a CPU cooler.

    If that's the kind of heat dissipation you need to deal with.

    I've measured a lot of this stuff lately. That trumps theories.

    Only if you understand what you are doing, and why you are doing it. If you don't, it is design by mindless evolution, which is time consuming.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/0kszc4nltr1q8d3/P944_HS_2.jpg?raw=1

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/iwkbuuoa4iq33a7/Mock1.jpg?raw=1

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/bz6ueadispq6ril/CPU_Cooler_Washers.jpg?raw=1

    Not a lot of information there. More preening than informing the audience.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Apr 17 15:49:41 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:87e310b7-17aa-4feb-9032-c2104f7d2fdcn@googlegroups.com:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air.

    But at that close spacing, due to boundary layer effects, it would
    have to be strongly forced air. or it would simply "walk over top
    of" the whole thing, doing less work in the end.

    People
    focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease,

    All that is needed is intimate, coplanar contact. The grease takes
    up voids. What *should be* "micro-sized voids", but voides
    nonetheless... errr without it the heat tranfer IS less. Those
    voids contain the insulative gas "air".

    when they
    often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path.

    The first series of AMD dual core CPUs back in oh... 1998 or so
    would fry the CPU AND the motherbaord almost instantly if the heat
    sink was not well coupled, and that included void filling paste.

    Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can
    attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    That is why contained flowing water was the choice for a long time.

    I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric fluid <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electronic-
    liquid-20kg/>

    But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat
    block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface.
    Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Still water is better.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance,

    Oh... I see you are aware.

    and the noisy
    bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember
    discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his
    garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The
    thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for
    the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power
    supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Apr 17 15:55:21 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and
    the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.

    It is not only about their condution from the heat source, it is
    about how well it gets transferred to a MOVING air mass. That is why
    most heats sinks had wadire fin spacing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc on Sun Apr 17 09:10:41 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and
    the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, closely
    spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it will go
    around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins, volumetric
    air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air flow
    by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.





    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Sun Apr 17 15:58:10 2022
    "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote in news:ot6tii-7un.ln1 @Telcontar.valinor:


    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.


    Silly.

    A strong air blast must have blown the only two firing neurons you
    have between your ears to a new location.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Sun Apr 17 15:39:38 2022
    Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in news:t3f6os$9d4$1@reader1.panix.com:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than
    can be extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though
    any of that.


    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7qVpWu2QYs>
    Funny it looks like the same damn machine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 09:25:41 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and
    the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >>selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High speed >>forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, closely
    spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it will go
    around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins, volumetric
    air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air flow
    by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number is
    useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to DecadentLinux...@decadence.org on Sun Apr 17 09:58:58 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:49:49 AM UTC+10, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in news:87e310b7-17aa-4feb...@googlegroups.com:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air.
    But at that close spacing, due to boundary layer effects, it would
    have to be strongly forced air. or it would simply "walk over top
    of" the whole thing, doing less work in the end.
    People
    focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease,
    All that is needed is intimate, coplanar contact. The grease takes
    up voids. What *should be* "micro-sized voids", but voides
    nonetheless... errr without it the heat tranfer IS less. Those
    voids contain the insulative gas "air".
    when they
    often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path.
    The first series of AMD dual core CPUs back in oh... 1998 or so
    would fry the CPU AND the motherbaord almost instantly if the heat
    sink was not well coupled, and that included void filling paste.
    Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can
    attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
    That is why contained flowing water was the choice for a long time.

    I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric fluid <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electronic- liquid-20kg/>

    But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

    That's where heat pipes are nice.

    What moves in heat sink is just water vapour. The water gets wicked along to the area that needs cooling, then evaporates - rapidly, because there's only water vapour inside the heat pipe, and the vapour pressure in side the heatpipe is that of the water
    at the point where it is condensing, plus the pressure drop to move it along to the point where it does condense.

    It really whistles through the heat pie on the way to the condensing end, and water vapour carries a lot more heat per gram that a noncondensable gas - the latent heat of evaporation of water is 2256 kiloJoules per kilogram. A kilogram of water is a lot
    of water - about 1250 litres of water vapour at atmospheric pressure.

    Even one gram of water is a 1.25 litres of water vapour, and the pipe work on an ordinary heat sink would be more like 0.1 litres, and you might get a tenth of an atmosphere pressure inside, so you might have 10 milligrams of water on the move, so about
    22 joules. But if that got from one end of the pipe to the other in one second that would 22 watts. It seems to move faster than that

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface.

    The heat pipe isn't bulky. The dissipating fins at the condensing end usually are pretty bulky. You are still dumping the heat into air, after all.

    Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Still water is better.

    Only if you can get it to evaporate. Liquid water as a heat transfer medium is okay, if you can dump the warm water down the sink - and I have done that for a research set-up - but it isn't practical for long term use.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance,

    Oh... I see you are aware.

    and the noisy
    bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember
    discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his
    garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The
    thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for
    the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power
    supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Not necessarily. Make the power supply physically big, and reasonably efficient, and free convection would work.

    Our 1996 millidegree thermostat started off with circulating water, but it got airlocks in the water pipes after about six months, which needed a visit from our service man to fix. So the production manager switched it to a heat pipe, after I'd moved to
    the Netherlands (in 1993) but before I'd written up the job, so it's covered in the paper I wrote, which didn't get published until 1996.

    It got his name (Douglas Stewart) onto the list of authors. The heat pipe setup was a custom part, and a pain to get designed and made but well worth the effort. I wished I'd thought of it.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 10:11:26 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 2:10:52 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in >news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and
    the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.

    Not exactly. true. Slow air would mostly bypass the gap between the fins but any pressure gradient along the length of the fins will move some air. If you haven't got much heat to dissipate, you don't need to move much air to carry it away.

    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, closely spaced fins.

    It won't stop it flowing, but it won't flow fast in the narrow gap.

    It will have to be ducted and forced, or it will go around.

    Most of it will.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins, volumetric
    air flow will approach zero.

    But it won't get there.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air flow
    by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    But there's nothing magical about getting exactly 50%.

    If you don't have to move much heat, a skived heat sink and slow moving air might be the way to go.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 17:24:30 2022
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >>DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and
    the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >>>selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High speed >>>forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, closely
    spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it will go
    around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins, volumetric
    air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air flow
    by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number is
    useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 17:45:02 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >>DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >>>selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.




    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
    again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
    means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
    get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
    moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Sun Apr 17 17:48:44 2022
    Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in news:006be91f-550a-4145-829b-2903eda74707n@googlegroups.com:

    Only if you can get it to evaporate. Liquid water as a heat
    transfer medium is okay, if you can dump the warm water down the
    sink - and I have done that for a research set-up - but it isn't
    practical for long term use.



    My decades old idea about making steam deep down in the heart of a
    slat dome (VERY hot) won't work either. However, pipes from the
    sirface taken down there to a heat exchanger that then sends the heated
    water back up would be easier to bring to a steam head than cooler
    water at the surface. So it could be used to preheat steam boiler
    water.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 17:50:59 2022
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >>>DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when
    - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like
    a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Sun Apr 17 11:00:26 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 9:22:50 PM UTC-4, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    TRicky Dickhead wrote:

    ======================

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.
    <
    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

    ** Think so.

    I know I'm wasting my time trying to explain anything to you, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.


    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between
    the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity
    of the fin/air contact.
    ** How well does heat travel via a thin plate?

    Very well compared to the interface between the plate and the air. That's the point. Even a thin plate has lots of conductivity compared to the metal-air interface unless that interface area is large.

    But you seem to have missed another aspect. The important thermal conductivity in the metal, is the *aggregate* thermal conductivity of the many plates. That would be similar to thicker fins spaced further apart.


    It's the extruded heat sinks with much fewer fins and a lot less surface area,
    that require a lot more air flow to get the same thermal conductivity.
    ** The scived idea relies on having very many fins.
    Fewer but thicker ones, spaced widely, works just as well or better.

    Zero evidence of that. The thick fins are spaced widely and much of the air flowing between them does little to cool the fins because it is not turbulent enough to come into contact with the fins.


    Also:

    Scived heatsinks suffer the disadvantage of being limited to internal use. Extruded and cast ones are often structural parts of a case.

    If you need a case, that's great, but that's not whats being discussed here.


    Horses for courses....

    That's always true in engineering.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 11:10:51 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:48:36 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:22:46 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
    <palli...@gmail.com> wrote:

    TRicky Dickhead wrote:

    ======================

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >> > a huge air blast.
    <
    Does anyone know what he is talking about?


    ** Think so.

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between
    the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity
    of the fin/air contact.

    ** How well does heat travel via a thin plate?
    The sheet thermal resistance of a thin plate can be high, especially
    aluminum alloys that skive well.

    If you blow air at a thin, tall, dense array of fins, it will
    naturally prefer to go around, not through, the fins. And you'll get
    most of the air flow at the tips of the fins, not near the baseplate,
    so the thermal resistances hurt. Short skived copper fins are good if
    the air is really blasted into the fins from above, like in a CPU
    cooler.

    I've measured a lot of this stuff lately. That trumps theories.

    Yes, but nothing relevant. I don't see any images of skived heatsinks.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Sun Apr 17 11:06:08 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:19:01 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:10:35 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact. Lots of surface area gives a low thermal resistance at the
    point of contact. That's the point of using them.

    It's the extruded heat sinks with much fewer fins and a lot less surface area, that require a lot more air flow to get the same thermal conductivity.
    The question hangs on how much heat you have to get rid of.

    The heat capacity of air is well defined. If you need to move a lot of heat you have to heat up a lot of air and move it away as soon as it has got hot.

    Fewer fins with lots of space between them let you blast a lot more air past them than you can squeeze between the thin fins of a skived heat sink.
    If you don't need to get rid of as much heat, a slower air flow will serve, and you can get away with a less voluminous heat sink

    "Blasting air" is only useful if it contacts the heat sink enough for the heat to transfer. Simply blowing between fins doesn't necessarily transfer the heat.

    All aspects of the design need to be balanced.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 11:19:30 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 1:26:23 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com>:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com >wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in >>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and
    the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >>>selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High speed >>>forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, closely >>spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it will go
    around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins, volumetric
    air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air flow
    by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number is >useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.
    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.

    Convection cooled, right? For convection you need minimal obstruction of the air flow since the pressure is very, very low. It has to be *very* large relative to other designs to provide the same heat flow.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc on Sun Apr 17 12:57:51 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in >news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >>>>DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when
    - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like
    a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between
    the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 16:49:40 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when
    - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like
    a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between
    the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.

    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling
    between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For
    small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 22:23:29 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:btro5hl6gr3pp1ph77olc2a2c8k5ihh017@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in >>news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >>>>>DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>>>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-wh
    en - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink.
    High speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or
    it will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native
    air flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal >>>>resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so >>>>restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50%
    number is useless if the air flow is restricted without
    corresponding cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid >>>>aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools
    the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More
    like a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference
    between the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be
    allowed to get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually
    minor. Inside a metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and
    reflects back.

    All of the MIDS JTRS tactical transcievers in the US and ally
    military are all populated with canned, conduction cooled cards.
    Whether it is being slid into an F-18, or an F-35 or an F-22 they all
    go on the same tray Which has the PS unit and the MIDS unit and the
    RF amplifier unit. It is the most advanced SDR there is. ALL
    conduction cooled 'cards'. All temps get homogenized throughout the
    init. The RF amp is the only part that has air passages ported
    through it.

    <https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2010/dod/2010mids. pdf?ver=2019-08-22-112846-223>

    That is a micro sized VAX but way faster than a normal VAX.
    It manages AEGIS targetting and all of the battlefield waveforms.
    Mainly the still in use, still not crypto broken Link 16 waveform.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Sun Apr 17 15:47:50 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 4:49:48 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1...@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png> >>>>>>
    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when >>>>>> - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like
    a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between
    the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.
    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For
    small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Don't forget to use absolute temperature. I remember a discussion here about inflate-gate where it took four iterations on the calculations and a large number of posts before anyone got the math right, because both the temperature and the pressure had
    to be absolute, not relative. Basically, there are two independent mistakes that could be made and all three erroneous calculations were done before the correct calculation was stumbled upon.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to DecadentLinux...@decadence.org on Sun Apr 17 15:49:31 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 6:23:37 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    news:btro5hl6gr3pp1ph7...@4ax.com:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in >>news:t3hijn$cus$1...@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC), >>>>>DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in >>>>>>news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp- >>>>>>content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-wh >>>>>>en - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink.
    High speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, >>>>>closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or
    it will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins, >>>>>volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native
    air flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal >>>>resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so >>>>restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50%
    number is useless if the air flow is restricted without
    corresponding cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid >>>>aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools
    the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More
    like a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference
    between the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be
    allowed to get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually
    minor. Inside a metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and
    reflects back.

    All of the MIDS JTRS tactical transcievers in the US and ally
    military are all populated with canned, conduction cooled cards.
    Whether it is being slid into an F-18, or an F-35 or an F-22 they all
    go on the same tray Which has the PS unit and the MIDS unit and the
    RF amplifier unit. It is the most advanced SDR there is. ALL
    conduction cooled 'cards'. All temps get homogenized throughout the
    init. The RF amp is the only part that has air passages ported
    through it.

    <https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2010/dod/2010mids. pdf?ver=2019-08-22-112846-223>

    That is a micro sized VAX but way faster than a normal VAX.
    It manages AEGIS targetting and all of the battlefield waveforms.
    Mainly the still in use, still not crypto broken Link 16 waveform.

    I wonder when it will support full self driving?

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Sun Apr 17 16:10:45 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:49:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when >>>>>>> - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like
    a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between
    the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.

    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling >between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For
    small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I wrote a little PowerBasic program to do the calc.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a70p72e9yltsj7/Radcool2.EXE?dl=0

    It uses the equation from Reference Data for Radio Engineers.

    It's still pretty small for semiconductors on heat sinks.




    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Apr 17 21:24:40 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:49:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink >>>>>>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png> >>>>>>>>
    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when >>>>>>>> - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High >>>>>>>> speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it >>>>>>> will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air >>>>>>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number >>>>>> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the
    device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like
    a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between
    the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.

    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling
    between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For
    small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I wrote a little PowerBasic program to do the calc.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a70p72e9yltsj7/Radcool2.EXE?dl=0

    It uses the equation from Reference Data for Radio Engineers.

    It's still pretty small for semiconductors on heat sinks.

    For two black bodies at 300K, the thermal impedance of radiation is
    about the same as 6 mm of air.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Mon Apr 18 07:08:33 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:24:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:49:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>
    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect >>>>>>>>>> coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink >>>>>>>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air >>>>>>>>>> contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png> >>>>>>>>>
    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when >>>>>>>>> - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High >>>>>>>>> speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced. >>>>>>>>

    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it >>>>>>>> will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air >>>>>>>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number >>>>>>> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid >>>>>>> aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the >>>>> device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like >>>>> a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and
    heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between >>>> the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.

    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling
    between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For
    small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I wrote a little PowerBasic program to do the calc.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a70p72e9yltsj7/Radcool2.EXE?dl=0

    It uses the equation from Reference Data for Radio Engineers.

    It's still pretty small for semiconductors on heat sinks.

    For two black bodies at 300K, the thermal impedance of radiation is
    about the same as 6 mm of air.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    That's a fun number. That's a lot of thermal resistance, and the
    insides of a metal box won't be a black body so things are worse in
    real life.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Apr 18 10:17:21 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:24:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:49:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>
    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect >>>>>>>>>>> coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink >>>>>>>>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air >>>>>>>>>>> contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png> >>>>>>>>>>
    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when >>>>>>>>>> - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High >>>>>>>>>> speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced. >>>>>>>>>

    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, >>>>>>>>> closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it >>>>>>>>> will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air >>>>>>>>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so >>>>>>>> restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number >>>>>>>> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding >>>>>>>> cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid >>>>>>>> aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the >>>>>> device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like >>>>>> a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and >>>>>> heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between >>>>> the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to
    get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a
    metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.

    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling >>>> between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For >>>> small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I wrote a little PowerBasic program to do the calc.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a70p72e9yltsj7/Radcool2.EXE?dl=0

    It uses the equation from Reference Data for Radio Engineers.

    It's still pretty small for semiconductors on heat sinks.

    For two black bodies at 300K, the thermal impedance of radiation is
    about the same as 6 mm of air.


    That's a fun number. That's a lot of thermal resistance, and the
    insides of a metal box won't be a black body so things are worse in
    real life.

    Until convection gets going, right. That's also the reason that foam
    and fibre-batt insulation isn't just immobilized air, as is often
    said--you need to scatter the IR radiation every few millimetres at most.

    Photon budgets are a lot easier to do when you have a bag full of
    fun-fact numbers like that: spheres scatter light into 4 pi steradians;
    if your feedback resistor drops more than 50 mV, you're in the shot
    noise limit; and so on and so forth.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Mon Apr 18 07:29:21 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:17:21 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:24:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:49:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:50:59 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:t3hijn$cus$1@dont-email.me:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:25:41 -0700) it happened
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>
    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect >>>>>>>>>>>> coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink >>>>>>>>>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air >>>>>>>>>>>> contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png> >>>>>>>>>>>
    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when >>>>>>>>>>> - selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High >>>>>>>>>>> speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced. >>>>>>>>>>

    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall, >>>>>>>>>> closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it >>>>>>>>>> will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air >>>>>>>>>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling. >>>>>>>>>
    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal >>>>>>>>> resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so >>>>>>>>> restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number >>>>>>>>> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding >>>>>>>>> cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid >>>>>>>>> aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    This works great:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/big_3kg_heatsink_IMG_3745.GIF

    BTW that is a rubidum reference on top of it.


    That is a very poor heat sink. Essentialy it conduction cools the >>>>>>> device it is mounted to, but not much gets radiated away. More like >>>>>>> a homogenizer.

    There is a reason that motorcycle air cooled cylinder jugs and >>>>>>> heads are NOT painted.

    Radiation cooling goes as the 4th power of the temp difference between >>>>>> the sink and the universe. Since semiconductors can't be allowed to >>>>>> get very hot above ambient, rad cooling is usually minor. Inside a >>>>>> metal box, a lot of the radiation is trapped and reflects back.

    The emission from a black body goes like T**4, so the thermal coupling >>>>> between two surfaces goes like the difference, i.e. T1**4 - T2**4. For >>>>> small temperature differences, that's basically 4 * T**3 * delta T.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I wrote a little PowerBasic program to do the calc.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a70p72e9yltsj7/Radcool2.EXE?dl=0

    It uses the equation from Reference Data for Radio Engineers.

    It's still pretty small for semiconductors on heat sinks.

    For two black bodies at 300K, the thermal impedance of radiation is
    about the same as 6 mm of air.


    That's a fun number. That's a lot of thermal resistance, and the
    insides of a metal box won't be a black body so things are worse in
    real life.

    Until convection gets going, right. That's also the reason that foam
    and fibre-batt insulation isn't just immobilized air, as is often
    said--you need to scatter the IR radiation every few millimetres at most.

    Photon budgets are a lot easier to do when you have a bag full of
    fun-fact numbers like that: spheres scatter light into 4 pi steradians;
    if your feedback resistor drops more than 50 mV, you're in the shot
    noise limit; and so on and so forth.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I experimented with covers over heated blocks, namely with various
    types of insulation. Given a pretty close fitting cover, the best
    insulation is none.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9v4dse1vv4vjs0w/P500_XO_Cover.jpg?raw=1



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Apr 18 23:42:17 2022
    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that. >>>
    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 22:51:44 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:10:31 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    Does anyone know what he is talking about?

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air contact. Lots of surface area gives a low thermal resistance at the
    point of contact. That's the point of using them.

    It's the extruded heat sinks with much fewer fins

    Oooooh fewer eh?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Mon Apr 18 22:52:28 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that. >>>>
    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 22:53:54 2022
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you
    can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The
    thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Mon Apr 18 14:55:39 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:44:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    You mean like aluminum foil? They don't look that thin. They seem to stand up to the blade well when it pushes them straight up. More like card stock, which in aluminum, is not all that flexible. The metal used in radiators was very thin. It stood
    up to a bit of abuse because it was metal. Now they use plastic, which amazed me they could get to work well!

    I think you are being a bit disingenuous.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 15:00:34 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you
    can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The
    thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to bitrex on Mon Apr 18 22:51:08 2022
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where it magically bends up to the vertical.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 23:20:16 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you
    can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.

    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to robin_listas@es.invalid on Mon Apr 18 15:48:55 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:42:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that. >>>>
    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    I have a skived copper heat sink, the one I posted a pic of. It got
    bashed some and some fins got bent. It took some muscle and pliers to straighten them out.

    Get one. Blow some air on it and see if the fins bend.

    The skived fins on a copper CPU cooler seem to be about 10 to 15 mils
    thick. Look to be some copper alloy, harder than pure copper. Pure
    copper and aluminum are both nasty to machine, and the alloys fix that
    but wreck the thermal and electrical conductivity.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 15:41:56 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:51:16 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner
    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where it magically bends up to the vertical.

    Yeah... "How dem do dat?"

    Last of the great thinkers. You saw the video. What do you think?

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 15:44:00 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink
    you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Mon Apr 18 15:50:48 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that. >>>>>
    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.



    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Mon Apr 18 15:53:07 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you
    can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Like a car? No point?




    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 18 23:52:56 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 23:53:58 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:41:56 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:51:16 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner
    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where it magically bends up to the vertical.

    Yeah... "How dem do dat?"

    Last of the great thinkers. You saw the video. What do you think?

    I have no idea, which is why I asked, duh.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 18 23:54:54 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:53:07 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink
    you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Like a car? No point?

    A car is nothing like a cooling system.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 23:54:30 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink
    you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.

    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Mon Apr 18 15:54:39 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 18 23:56:41 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.

    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 18 16:29:49 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:49:06 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:42:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
    I have a skived copper heat sink, the one I posted a pic of. It got
    bashed some and some fins got bent. It took some muscle and pliers to straighten them out.

    Get one. Blow some air on it and see if the fins bend.

    The skived fins on a copper CPU cooler seem to be about 10 to 15 mils
    thick. Look to be some copper alloy, harder than pure copper. Pure
    copper and aluminum are both nasty to machine, and the alloys fix that
    but wreck the thermal and electrical conductivity.

    "Wreck" is a pejorative term. The thermal conductivity is reduced compared to a heat sink that is very hard to make, and so very expensive. Did the heat sink work as advertised?

    --

    Rick C.

    ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 16:33:49 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    --

    Rick C.

    ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 16:32:29 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat
    sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?

    It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.

    --

    Rick C.

    +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc on Tue Apr 19 10:14:29 2022
    On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
    selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.




    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
    again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
    means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
    get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
    moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
    easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin
    spacing (fewer fins).

    Clifford Heath

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc on Tue Apr 19 10:20:23 2022
    On 18/4/22 1:49 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
    I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric fluid <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electronic- liquid-20kg/>

    But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

    I read that the Cray supercomputers were flooded in liquid Freon, pumped through - 100kW of cooling to remove 100kW of heating.

    Clifford Heath

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 18 20:43:23 2022
    John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink
    you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Like a car? No point?

    The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Mon Apr 18 18:21:12 2022
    Phil Hobbs wrote:
    ===============


    The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)


    ** The only genuinely water cooled engines are those fitted to boats.



    ...... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Doe@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Tue Apr 19 01:42:00 2022
    Phil Hobbs wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    "Commander Kinsey" wrote:
    Ricky wrote:
    bitrex wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus
    on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose
    far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately
    there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a
    CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat
    block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger
    fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy
    bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember
    discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage
    where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass
    of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran
    the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose
    he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to
    a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water
    tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling
    if you still have fans!

    Like a car? No point?

    The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)

    Now even medium powered motorcycles are watercooled.

    And all the big ones look like Harleys.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Mon Apr 18 19:19:36 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:14:36 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
    selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.




    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
    again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
    means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
    get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin spacing (fewer fins).

    I don't think you need to add waves to get turbulence. What is important is turbulence at the surface of the fin. The skived fins already have a rough surface that helps to disturb the boundary layer. Adding surface irregularities that are too large
    causes areas with little air flow.

    The trade off is fewer fins require thicker fins to better conduct the heat in the metal as each fin has to carry more heat. Thinner fins each carry less heat, so they don't need as much air to carry the heat off each fin, so more narrow spacing works
    well.
    Bottom line is, one limitation in the heat flow is the surface area. Rough, smooth, wavy, whatever. It needs enough surface to transfer the heat by contact. Generally, more is better since this is a point of very low conductivity, high resistance per
    unit area.

    --

    Rick C.

    ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 22:13:59 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:19:41 PM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:14:36 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when- >>>> selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid aluminum brick is pretty bad.

    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
    again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
    get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin spacing (fewer fins).

    I don't think you need to add waves to get turbulence. What is important is turbulence at the surface of the fin. The skived fins already have a rough surface that helps to disturb the boundary layer. Adding surface irregularities that are too large
    causes areas with little air flow.

    The boundary layer is the the layer in which local airflow gets faster. It gets narrower as the airspeed away from surface get faster. It's - very roughly - about 5mm thick at the sort of air velocities of interest here.

    With skived fins the airflow between the fins is never going to be fast enough to be turbulent, and the air flow is going to be smooth, slow and laminar.

    The trade off is fewer fins require thicker fins to better conduct the heat in the metal as each fin has to carry more heat. Thinner fins each carry less heat, so they don't need as much air to carry the heat off each fin, so more narrow spacing works
    well.

    Bottom line is, one limitation in the heat flow is the surface area. Rough, smooth, wavy, whatever. It needs enough surface to transfer the heat by contact. Generally, more is better since this is a point of very low conductivity, high resistance per
    unit area.

    True, but if you can't get much airflow, you can't carry off much heat. Skived fins offer more surface area than the solid aluminium block they were skived off, but it's hard to get much airflow between them. Free convention would be a lot better than it
    would be a for the original sold block, but forced convection would need high air pressure to get much extra flow.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to no.spam@please.net on Tue Apr 19 07:24:14 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 10:14:29 +1000, Clifford Heath
    <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

    On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    news:thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
    selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.




    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
    again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
    means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
    get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
    moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
    easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin >spacing (fewer fins).

    Clifford Heath

    A wavy fin would be messy to skive. The right angle at the root of
    each blade would be wavy too. I'd expect things to break.

    The process is crazy enough already!



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 17:41:56 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat
    sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?

    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.

    I refuse to answer you twice. See above.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 17:44:30 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
    https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Tue Apr 19 17:45:55 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:43:23 +0100, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink
    you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface.
    The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Like a car? No point?

    The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)

    All cars are air cooled, what do you think that fan at the front does?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Tue Apr 19 10:14:38 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
    https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

    Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 11:48:56 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat
    sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
    It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.
    I refuse to answer you twice. See above.

    If you don't want to converse, what are you after?

    --

    Rick C.

    --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 11:51:01 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat
    sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?

    --

    Rick C.

    --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Apr 19 20:24:51 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
    https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

    Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

    I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 20:30:57 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:48:56 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat
    sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
    It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.
    I refuse to answer you twice. See above.

    If you don't want to converse, what are you after?

    I did converse, did you not read the other line only two lines up? I simply objected to you repeating yourself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 20:31:58 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat
    sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?

    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 21:59:18 2022
    On 2022-04-18 23:55, Ricky wrote:
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:44:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that. >>>>>
    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    You mean like aluminum foil? They don't look that thin. They seem to stand up to the blade well when it pushes them straight up. More like card stock, which in aluminum, is not all that flexible. The metal used in radiators was very thin. It stood
    up to a bit of abuse because it was metal. Now they use plastic, which amazed me they could get to work well!

    I think you are being a bit disingenuous.

    I have seen many radiators in AC conditioners that are almost paper thin
    (or razor blade thin, if you prefer), and they are very easy to damage.
    In fact, they often were already damaged and sections of the units were
    not working because being bent against one another they blocked the air
    flow.


    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Apr 19 19:59:15 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be >>extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    They look fine to me. Assuming the use is in something like a 1U server,
    that style works fine to over 200 watts per heatsink that's less than
    3"x3"x1". Fancier heatsinks are copper, some even add a bonus heat pipe on
    the mounting surface to spread heat to the rest of the heatsink from the center, where the hot thing usually is.

    Blowing air at 90 degrees into a heatsink is some 1990s nonsense.

    Current server designs have far simple air paths than old machines, and
    even dissipate more power. The days of the pop can sized heatsinks on
    stuff like a PA-RISC processor is long over. Getting heat out of the die
    and package is part of the problem due to size these days. Certains parts
    of a processor can be hitting thermal limits while other parts nearby are
    just fine. It's sort of bizarre actually.

    The real magic seems to be in the fans that are available now. They're
    real powerful, real small and the top shelf ones last a really really long time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 21:38:12 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a
    heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing. >> >> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you. >> >> >
    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.

    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.

    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.

    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 13:32:44 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote: >> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a
    heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing. >> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you. >> >
    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.

    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.

    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 15:45:19 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a
    heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?

    I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
    You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand? >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?


    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.


    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!

    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Wed Apr 20 10:12:40 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
    https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

    Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

    I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

    Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
    tail fins and jeans had bell bottoms.



    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Apr 20 19:09:28 2022
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?

    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 20 12:20:35 2022
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 21.09.35 UTC+2 skrev Don:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?


    afair copper is almost twice as good a aluminium but expensive.

    most of the benefits of copper is probably already had by just
    using a copper heat spreader to get the from the small cpu to the larger heatsink
    and then the rest of the way aluminium work just as good

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 20 14:41:25 2022
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but
    the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Apr 20 22:00:52 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:t0sq5hdnvplvm2n7kbqigtfft5m5s4h6p4@4ax.com:

    That's a fun number. That's a lot of thermal resistance, and the
    insides of a metal box won't be a black body so things are worse in
    real life.


    That depends on what it is made from and what surface treatment it
    got.

    I made IR calibration ovens decades ago, and now they make
    calibration surfaces where the temp has to be homogenous across an
    entire surface, which is very difficult to achieve due to local air
    currents and other factors.

    Not sure if you have a full grasp of just what a black body radiator
    is. Maybe you only have a fool grasp.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Don on Wed Apr 20 14:29:21 2022
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?

    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but
    the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Apr 20 22:12:07 2022
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kucbih5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <user@example.net>
    wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where it
    magically bends up to the vertical.


    Copper "work hardens" and such a bend would create micro-fractures
    right at the bend joint.

    To my knowledge Aluminum does not, but that may not be true of all
    of the alloys in that metal's family.

    However, these thoings are done by engineers for customers, so I am
    sure that efficay was examined, determined and compared to other
    means and it would not exist at all were it not able to produce an
    effective heat sink.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Wed Apr 20 15:28:06 2022
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins,
    but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all
    that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it
    could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of
    fins, to identify the optimum?

    Or just go with water cooling. I've always liked that idea. I was going to build a water cooling system from scratch for a desktop. I ended up with a laptop before I got it ready for test. They already use heat pipes. It's hard to beat that. They
    have really tiny radiators with very, very thin fins, but lots of them. I wonder how they get any air to flow through them??? It must be magic.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 20 15:30:49 2022
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 00.12.14 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kucb...@ryzen.lan:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <us...@example.net>
    wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where it
    magically bends up to the vertical.


    Copper "work hardens" and such a bend would create micro-fractures
    right at the bend joint.

    only if you try to bend it back, annealed copper is dead soft only gets hard once you have bend it

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Apr 20 23:11:02 2022
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kudn2esmvhs6z@ryzen.lan:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
    wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People
    focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they
    often lose far more performance at other points in the heat
    path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink
    you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the
    heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air
    interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better
    performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the
    noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I
    remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a
    drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to
    absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise
    other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of
    those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the
    water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a
    huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in
    water cooling if you still have fans!

    Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU.
    Unable to even understand what you've read.

    You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:

    This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060 014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg

    Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would
    be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce
    another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.

    So er... what was I read wrong?


    Let me correct the fuck out of your utter stupidity.

    Water cooling takes internal case air and passes it through the
    radiator OUTSIDE the case, and no, the pumps do not fail and they do
    not have leaking problems. Maybe you are just so goddamned stupid
    and dismissive that you failed to note that the problems with the
    early water based "systems" were overcome over a decade ago.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Wed Apr 20 23:27:12 2022
    Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote in news:16e7243ae6ab4d09$1$1100196$26dd2c6e@news.thecubenet.com:

    On 18/4/22 1:49 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org
    wrote:
    I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric
    fluid
    <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electronic-
    liquid-20kg/>

    But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

    I read that the Cray supercomputers were flooded in liquid Freon,
    pumped through - 100kW of cooling to remove 100kW of heating.

    Clifford Heath


    And then they banned freon. I am sure the refrigerants now used
    would be good too though.

    The best thing is that transistor size reduction (node size) has
    made power consumption drop drastically as transistor count and
    fucntion increases.

    This is why I love electronics so much compared to the rest of the
    world's induxtries. It gets better and beter as it gets less and
    less expensive.

    The post I made about that science girl is one where she goes over
    the new NVidia units and they have BILLIONS of elements each.

    It is literally amazing to me how many logic toggles get made these
    days without errors. We used to worry about how many vias a PCB
    layout had as points of failure. Now even PCB manufacturing is
    amazing, as is the level of quality.

    Even the quick turn short run guys are pretty darn good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Apr 20 23:39:18 2022
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kvsutc5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:43:23 +0100, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    John Larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air.
    People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease,
    when they often lose far more performance at other points in
    the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a
    heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.

    I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.

    If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the
    heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air
    interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better
    performance.

    Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the
    noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I
    remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a
    drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air
    interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to
    absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise
    other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of
    those.

    Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the
    water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had
    a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no
    point in water cooling if you still have fans!

    Like a car? No point?

    The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone.
    ;)

    All cars are air cooled, what do you think that fan at the front
    does?


    Car engines are WATER cooled. The fan addresses a WATER Filled
    radiator, you retarded putz.

    There are a few models of air cooled engines that were used in
    cars, but not many. VW, then Porsche (VW owned) and the US had the
    Corvair, but that had a VERY short lifespan.

    Essentially you are STILL being one stupid fucking troll.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Wed Apr 20 23:22:19 2022
    Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote in news:16e723e88710fdef$7$1100196$26dd2c6e@news.thecubenet.com:

    On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org
    wrote:
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    news:thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-wh
    en- selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink.
    High speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or
    it will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native
    air flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50%
    number is useless if the air flow is restricted without
    corresponding cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.




    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little
    fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good,
    but again, the air movement over and through them is required.
    Air flow means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated
    elements to get hot and then be carried off as more air is added
    to be heated and moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you
    could easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with
    bigger fin spacing (fewer fins).

    Clifford Heath



    I agree. They are likely considering the air flow available as
    being the defining (restricting) element. A wavy design would likely
    need more flow to gain motion at the boundary layer, but should be
    far more efficient once achieved. I would even like to see the
    numbers on a system that "injected" air at the very base of the sink
    fin array with small jets in front of each one, and also, of course,
    normal air flow systems to carry it all off.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 20 16:39:50 2022
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 01.27.18 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    Clifford Heath <no....@please.net> wrote in news:16e7243ae6ab4d09$1$1100196$26dd...@news.thecubenet.com:

    On 18/4/22 1:49 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org
    wrote:
    I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric
    fluid
    <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electronic-
    liquid-20kg/>

    But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

    I read that the Cray supercomputers were flooded in liquid Freon,
    pumped through - 100kW of cooling to remove 100kW of heating.

    Clifford Heath


    And then they banned freon. I am sure the refrigerants now used
    would be good too though.


    Freon is a brandname, there is many different types

    https://www.freon.com/en/products/refrigerants

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Wed Apr 20 23:48:28 2022
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in news:50ac279e-89b5-44b5-9faf-057a89cf4296n@googlegroups.com:

    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 00.12.14 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kucb...@ryzen.lan:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <us...@example.net>
    wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where
    it magically bends up to the vertical.


    Copper "work hardens" and such a bend would create
    micro-fractures right at the bend joint.

    only if you try to bend it back, annealed copper is dead soft only
    gets hard once you have bend it


    I guess you are not very observant. The bend happens at the end of
    each skiving, and the speed of the bending is what causes the
    IMMEDIATE 'work hardening' and no, "bending it back" is not required.
    The solid matrix of copper atoms shears and micro-fractures occur
    immediately. Regardless of the fact that you are too inexperienced
    to understand the process. Your precious "full annealing" disappears
    right at the bend and does so immediately. Copper is one of the
    worst mediums for it too.

    The military are fully versed in these properties.
    They also know about things like gold inter-metallic embrittlement.

    Copper bends are properly made in a very slow motion. I have used
    large copper bars to make grounding system, etc. And slow bending is
    a priority. Very slow bending.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 20 16:54:46 2022
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 01.48.35 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in news:50ac279e-89b5-44b5...@googlegroups.com:
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 00.12.14 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kucb...@ryzen.lan:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <us...@example.net>
    wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where
    it magically bends up to the vertical.


    Copper "work hardens" and such a bend would create
    micro-fractures right at the bend joint.

    only if you try to bend it back, annealed copper is dead soft only
    gets hard once you have bend it

    I guess you are not very observant. The bend happens at the end of
    each skiving, and the speed of the bending is what causes the
    IMMEDIATE 'work hardening' and no, "bending it back" is not required.
    The solid matrix of copper atoms shears and micro-fractures occur immediately. Regardless of the fact that you are too inexperienced
    to understand the process. Your precious "full annealing" disappears
    right at the bend and does so immediately. Copper is one of the
    worst mediums for it too.

    good thing we don't use copper pipes or wires then ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Wed Apr 20 23:58:38 2022
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in news:f160e4ba-9472-4a59-909e-6ede7f9346cdn@googlegroups.com:

    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 01.27.18 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    Clifford Heath <no....@please.net> wrote in
    news:16e7243ae6ab4d09$1$1100196$26dd...@news.thecubenet.com:

    On 18/4/22 1:49 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org
    wrote:
    I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric
    fluid
    <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electroni
    c- liquid-20kg/>

    But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

    I read that the Cray supercomputers were flooded in liquid
    Freon, pumped through - 100kW of cooling to remove 100kW of
    heating.

    Clifford Heath


    And then they banned freon. I am sure the refrigerants now used
    would be good too though.


    Freon is a brandname, there is many different types

    https://www.freon.com/en/products/refrigerants

    I used to make environmental chambers. The company dumped a
    hundred pounds a day before the ban. I know what a Chemours brand
    name is and what the industry uses as a blanket term as well.
    We made table top dual stage chambers that could go to -150C and
    chambers big enough to place an entire missile into and chambers that
    had both hot and cold sides and a transition door between to thermal
    shock test PCB assemblies under power. I really don't need a primer
    on refrigerants or the transition to the new ones. Which they refer
    to as "Puron" these days. But thanks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Wed Apr 20 21:00:48 2022
    On 4/20/2022 7:54 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 01.48.35 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
    news:50ac279e-89b5-44b5...@googlegroups.com:
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 00.12.14 UTC+2 skrev
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kucb...@ryzen.lan:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex <us...@example.net>
    wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one where
    it magically bends up to the vertical.


    Copper "work hardens" and such a bend would create
    micro-fractures right at the bend joint.

    only if you try to bend it back, annealed copper is dead soft only
    gets hard once you have bend it

    I guess you are not very observant. The bend happens at the end of
    each skiving, and the speed of the bending is what causes the
    IMMEDIATE 'work hardening' and no, "bending it back" is not required.
    The solid matrix of copper atoms shears and micro-fractures occur
    immediately. Regardless of the fact that you are too inexperienced
    to understand the process. Your precious "full annealing" disappears
    right at the bend and does so immediately. Copper is one of the
    worst mediums for it too.

    good thing we don't use copper pipes or wires then ...

    They do copper sinks this way also:

    <https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Thu Apr 21 04:29:20 2022
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins >> > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's
    freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
    onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
    for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be
    so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
    to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
    is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop bi-metallic:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

    The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
    metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over-
    sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
    lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
    to a desktop motherboard instead.
    Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.

    Danke,

    --
    Don, KB7RPU, https://www.qsl.net/kb7rpu
    There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light;
    She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Clifford Heath on Wed Apr 20 22:47:31 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:14:36 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
    On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news:thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

    Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

    The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
    coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
    and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
    contact.

    The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
    content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>

    <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
    selecting-a-heat-sink/>

    Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
    speed
    forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


    Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
    closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
    will go around.

    The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
    volumetric air flow will approach zero.

    My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
    flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

    And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
    resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
    restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
    is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
    cooling.

    There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
    aluminum brick is pretty bad.




    I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
    and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
    again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
    means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
    get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and moved. It's a bucket brigade.

    I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
    easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin spacing (fewer fins).

    https://youtu.be/ghrjJ1OL6jM?t=21

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Thu Apr 21 17:03:21 2022
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in news:36df6057-1e26-47a2-90e4-501925414d3fn@googlegroups.com:

    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 01.48.35 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
    news:50ac279e-89b5-44b5...@googlegroups.com:
    torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 00.12.14 UTC+2 skrev
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
    "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kucb...@ryzen.lan:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex
    <us...@example.net> wrote:

    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one
    where it magically bends up to the vertical.


    Copper "work hardens" and such a bend would create
    micro-fractures right at the bend joint.

    only if you try to bend it back, annealed copper is dead soft
    only gets hard once you have bend it

    I guess you are not very observant. The bend happens at the end
    of each skiving, and the speed of the bending is what causes the
    IMMEDIATE 'work hardening' and no, "bending it back" is not
    required. The solid matrix of copper atoms shears and
    micro-fractures occur immediately. Regardless of the fact that
    you are too inexperienced to understand the process. Your
    precious "full annealing" disappears right at the bend and does
    so immediately. Copper is one of the worst mediums for it too.

    good thing we don't use copper pipes or wires then ...


    They too fracture and that is why copper pipe runs for plumbing are
    done with straight sections and then "elbows" and such are used to
    make turns. Soft copper comes in rolls but get straightened for
    installation and many runs And does not lend to being bent much as
    the diameter collapses and flow suffers.

    Wiring is similar inasmuch as nobody makes hard turns in wiring
    runs, and the little loops made at the ends for termination should be
    made in a slow fashion to minimize the effect of 'work hardening'.
    It is in fact taught in a proper electrical wiring / electrician's
    class.

    Sarcasm can be funny, but not so bright sarcasm, not so much.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 21 18:31:19 2022
    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    copper is a much better heat conductor than Al. It also costs more and
    weighs more. In the processor world, you have to transfer the heat from
    the relatively small surface of the procesor to the rest of the heatsink
    in addition to transferring the heat to the air. So you'll see heatsinks
    made of multiple metals. Everything is always a trade-off, somewhere.

    All copper heatsinks are surpringly heavy, and still don't conduct heat
    as well as good heat pipe, so you'll see heatpipes in some heatsinks even
    where there is no need to move the heat somewhere else due to space constraints, like in a laptop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Sun Apr 24 22:17:00 2022
    On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:31:19 +0100, Cydrome Leader <presence@mungepanix.com> wrote:

    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    copper is a much better heat conductor than Al. It also costs more and
    weighs more. In the processor world, you have to transfer the heat from
    the relatively small surface of the procesor to the rest of the heatsink
    in addition to transferring the heat to the air. So you'll see heatsinks
    made of multiple metals. Everything is always a trade-off, somewhere.

    All copper heatsinks are surpringly heavy, and still don't conduct heat
    as well as good heat pipe, so you'll see heatpipes in some heatsinks even where there is no need to move the heat somewhere else due to space constraints, like in a laptop.

    Ah! Thankyou. I thought they were just making it look pretty as a marketing gimmick, my faith has been restored in science. Makes sense - I've only ever seen dual metals on big heavy ones.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 25 00:58:00 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand? >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?

    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by

    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328

    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.

    If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90C!

    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.

    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.

    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 24 19:26:12 2022
    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the
    heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.


    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
    If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.


    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    As I expected. No point at all. You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them
    as much as possible, so they can overclock them.

    --

    Rick C.

    +--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Mon Apr 25 19:00:55 2022
    John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders. >>>>>>>>>>>
    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include >>>>>>>>> dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
    https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

    Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

    I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

    Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
    tail fins and jeans had bell bottoms.

    1957 Chevys are awesome.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Apr 28 06:14:59 2022
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:29:21 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?

    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins,
    but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    If only computers were still desktops and not towers.... Who thought it would be a good idea to have stuff hanging off things?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Don on Thu Apr 28 06:17:16 2022
    On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 05:29:20 +0100, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins >>> > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers >>> > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all >>> > aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's
    freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
    onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
    for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be
    so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
    to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
    is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop bi-metallic:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

    The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
    metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over- sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
    lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
    to a desktop motherboard instead.
    Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.

    The one on the right is shit, it lets my i5-8600K reach 100C and thermally throttle if I use all 6 cores and the onboard GPU to the max.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Apr 28 06:16:06 2022
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins >> > > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers >> > > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all >> > > aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins,
    but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all
    that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it
    could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of
    fins, to identify the optimum?

    Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

    Or just go with water cooling. I've always liked that idea. I was going to build a water cooling system from scratch for a desktop. I ended up with a laptop before I got it ready for test. They already use heat pipes. It's hard to beat that. They
    have really tiny radiators with very, very thin fins, but lots of them. I wonder how they get any air to flow through them??? It must be magic.

    Best watercooler has no fans on the radiator, or the radiator is in another room.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 28 21:22:25 2022
    On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:16:14 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is >> > > > it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the >> > > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins,
    but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all
    that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it
    could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of
    fins, to identify the optimum?

    Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

    Sometimes you just have no fucking clue! Well, for a wide range of "sometimes".

    --

    Rick C.

    +--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Apr 29 05:27:35 2022
    On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 05:22:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:16:14 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> >> onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is >> >> > > > it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the >> >> > > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins,
    but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose
    all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins,
    it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of
    fins, to identify the optimum?

    Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

    Sometimes you just have no fucking clue! Well, for a wide range of "sometimes".

    If you're going to disagree with me, to prevent yourself from looking like a wanker, explain why you believe I'm wrong. I have such a thermometer and can very quickly tell the temperature of every part of a heatsink. Having 96 CPU cores and 8 GPUs, I
    tend to analyze temperatures a lot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sat Apr 30 07:18:53 2022
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of
    the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.

    And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion. >> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90C, so there's no reason to cool further.

    I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90C!
    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    As I expected. No point at all.

    That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

    You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can
    overclock them.

    Then they are fools.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 03:54:46 2022
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:19:03 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    <snip>
    You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they
    can overclock them.

    Then they are fools.

    The fool here is Comander Kinsey. He sees the CPU at one end of the heat dissipating arrangement and the finned heat sink at the other dissipating the heat generated, and hasn't noticed that there's a thermal gradient from the CPU to the surface of the
    air-cooled heat sink.

    The copper block next to the CPU get almost as hot as the CPU. A heat pipe soldered onto that copper block can carry a lot of heat (as the latent heat of fusion of vaporised water) with very little temperature drop and dump it on to a much larger
    condensing area at the other end of the heat pipe where it can get spread across a fairly wide area under a large number of air-cooled fins, none of which have to get all that hot to transfer their little bit of heat to the passing air.

    More dissipating fin area means the CPU doesn't need to get as hot to get rid of the heat it is dissipating. This might have dumbed it all down enough to make it comprehensible to Commander Kinsey, but since he isn't all that interested in understanding
    what's going, comprehension isn't his favourite activity. Poncing around telling people that stuff doesn't really matter is more his line.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 30 06:26:07 2022
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of
    the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
    And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

    It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances. You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to
    air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere. So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same.
    There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.

    I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.


    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
    If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.
    I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

    Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;


    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk. >> >>
    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    As I expected. No point at all.
    That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

    LOL


    You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they
    can overclock them.
    Then they are fools.

    Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sun May 1 03:45:30 2022
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:12:40 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
    <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

    bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
    I thought they were extruded, but no!

    <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>

    Like carving a turkey dinner

    Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
    extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

    Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
    a huge air blast.

    I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

    That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders. >>>>>> >>>>>
    I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

    So they'd be almost destroyed.

    There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
    dimensions. You know, numbers.

    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

    Post a picture and we can discuss it.
    It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

    A picture is worth 1,000 words.

    Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
    https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

    Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

    I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

    Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
    tail fins

    Probably removed by the health and softy committee in case you reverse at high speed in to a pedestrian.

    Donald Trump's car drifting in reverse very fast: https://youtu.be/6elLDemrDls

    I was once told by the police I had to get my car reg number replaced because it was loose, so it could fly off, spin round, and chop somebody's head off. His reasoning? He'd seen it in the film Blade Runner 2. Telling him that was fictional got him
    very angry indeed. But then he did have beard.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu May 5 10:13:45 2022
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of
    the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
    And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

    It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.

    I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks,
    that's a bottleneck. It's also a resistance.

    You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.

    Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn't conduct like solid.

    So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink
    off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.

    You're adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

    I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.

    Anybody who uses the term "in denial" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.

    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
    If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90C, so there's no reason to cool further.
    I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

    Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;

    WTF? I'm pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk. >> >> >>
    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90C!
    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    As I expected. No point at all.
    That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

    LOL

    That's also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
    https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
    Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

    You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they
    can overclock them.
    Then they are fools.

    Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways.

    No it doesn't. You can't just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

    There's a reason your 4GHz CPU isn't sold at 4.4GHz. Because it's not reliable at that speed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu May 5 07:12:22 2022
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:13:56 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Then they are fools.

    Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways.

    No it doesn't. You can't just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

    It's hard to find a cliche that doesn't apply to Commander Kinsey. He is a very stereotyped wanker.

    There's a reason your 4GHz CPU isn't sold at 4.4GHz. Because it's not reliable at that speed.

    Actually its more that only some parts keep on working when clocked that fast. The specifications that manufacturers slap on a part are set by the production yield that they get when they test to that specification. They seem to want 95% yield or better,
    if they can get it, so the specifications tend to be conservative.

    Over-clockers are interested in seeing how fast they can run the part they happen to have bought, with the chip cooler they decided to put on it.

    When we put in select on test parts to compensate for production tolerances, parts from the same batch were a lot more similar to one another than parts from different batches (and we bought in batches that covered about six months production, so the
    guys doing the testing got pretty bored with putting in the same resistor for months on end). Parts that came from the same wafer might be even more similar.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu May 5 07:19:18 2022
    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 5:13:56 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design
    of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
    And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

    It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.
    I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks,
    that's a bottleneck. It's also a resistance.

    If you have a physics degree, you would understand the differences between traffic and electrical resistance. So clearly I have caught you in a lie.

    I don't need a poor analogy, because I understand resistance. Why not just work with thermal resistance, rather than talking in analogies that you clearly don't understand.


    You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.
    Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn't conduct like solid.

    Lol! So that's physicist talk, "Air doesn't conduct like a solid"? The air in this situation doesn't need to conduct heat. It accepts heat from contact with the heat sink fins, and the movement of the air transports that heat away. Conduction has
    little to do with it other than possibly the very thin layer at the air-metal surface where it does conduct just like any other material.


    So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off
    the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.
    You're adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

    Again, you can't understand that the remainder of the system does not need to be the same. You can't look at one portion of the system and talk about the entire system. You want desperately for the two systems to be otherwise identical, but there is no
    reason to believe that.


    I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.
    Anybody who uses the term "in denial" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

    Or they are discussing something with someone who is in denial.


    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C. >> >> >
    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
    If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.
    I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

    Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;
    WTF? I'm pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

    Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as low a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is
    useful. It's a hobby.


    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    As I expected. No point at all.
    That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

    LOL
    That's also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
    https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
    Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

    You are right about the eyesight. Not so right about the muscles, etc. I was captain of the wrestling team and have been very successful in life. You, meanwhile, are reduced to the pathetic presence you project in this group, completely unable to have
    a meaningful discussion, largely devoid of friends.


    You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they
    can overclock them.
    Then they are fools.

    Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways.
    No it doesn't. You can't just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

    There's a reason your 4GHz CPU isn't sold at 4.4GHz. Because it's not reliable at that speed.

    Again, you fail to understand anything at all about this thread. You are an interesting case, but I think you have been explored enough. This is pretty much a hobby, and you are getting boring.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu May 5 19:19:56 2022
    On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:19:18 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    ----a reply to my post after you claimed you weren't going to reply again, after I made a Jewish comment. So you're a liar. Or your killfile broke.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu May 5 23:06:36 2022
    On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 4:20:06 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:19:18 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    ----a reply to my post after you claimed you weren't going to reply again, after I made a Jewish comment. So you're a liar. Or your killfile broke.

    We aren't replying to you. We are jeering at you.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri May 13 02:52:25 2022
    On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:19:18 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 5:13:56 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
    Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

    It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
    It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

    You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
    I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

    I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
    Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

    Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design
    of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
    And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

    It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.
    I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks,
    that's a bottleneck. It's also a resistance.

    If you have a physics degree, you would understand the differences between traffic and electrical resistance.

    Sorry, it's too complicated for you. Imagine lots of cars going through a small road.

    So clearly I have caught you in a lie.

    And what lie is this?

    I don't need a poor analogy, because I understand resistance. Why not just work with thermal resistance, rather than talking in analogies that you clearly don't understand.

    To make it simpler for you.

    You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.
    Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn't conduct like solid.

    Lol! So that's physicist talk, "Air doesn't conduct like a solid"?

    Yip.

    The air in this situation doesn't need to conduct heat. It accepts heat from contact with the heat sink fins,

    By conduction. what do you think happens at the interface?

    So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink
    off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.
    You're adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

    Again, you can't understand that the remainder of the system does not need to be the same. You can't look at one portion of the system and talk about the entire system. You want desperately for the two systems to be otherwise identical, but there is
    no reason to believe that.

    Stop waffling and get to the point.

    I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.
    Anybody who uses the term "in denial" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

    Or they are discussing something with someone who is in denial.

    No such thing, it's just believers that can't handle people who don't. Mainly religion, or some other "religion" like climate change.

    I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
    You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C. >> >> >> >
    LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
    https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
    aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
    If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

    You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90C, so there's no reason to cool further.
    I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

    Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;
    WTF? I'm pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

    Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as low a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is
    useful. It's a hobby.

    If it could run faster, it would be sold as such. Do they really think the manufacturer doesn't know what they're doing?

    As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
    Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

    Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

    Why? The CPU is happy at 90C!
    Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
    What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
    Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

    As I expected. No point at all.
    That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

    LOL
    That's also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
    https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
    Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

    You are right about the eyesight. Not so right about the muscles, etc. I was captain of the wrestling team and have been very successful in life.

    A muscular geek, yeah right.

    You, meanwhile, are reduced to the pathetic presence you project in this group, completely unable to have a meaningful discussion, largely devoid of friends.

    I see you suck at psychology too.

    You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so
    they can overclock them.
    Then they are fools.

    Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways.
    No it doesn't. You can't just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

    There's a reason your 4GHz CPU isn't sold at 4.4GHz. Because it's not reliable at that speed.

    Again, you fail to understand anything at all about this thread. You are an interesting case, but I think you have been explored enough. This is pretty much a hobby, and you are getting boring.

    And yet again you supply no information, you just grumble when things aren't going your way. Are you a bot?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to CoLamer Trumpsey on Sun May 15 05:17:30 2022
    "CoLamer Trumpsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1l23hne3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan:

    Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as
    low
    a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a
    speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the
    goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It's a
    hobby.

    If it could run faster, it would be sold as such. Do they really
    think the manufacturer doesn't know what they're doing?


    You're a goddamned idiot with no clue what CPU makers intend.

    They are sold to last years at a given run rate. Overclockers pull
    down temps so they can increase that run speed and it has been that
    way since the 486.

    We really know what manufacturers are doing, and you decidedly do
    not. You are an abject idiot with zero physics acumen, and zero
    industry knowledge. Are you related to the Trump family of idiots?
    You sure as fuk act like someone as stupid as they are.

    You are most likely only able to command your sphincter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to DecadentLinux...@decadence.org on Sun May 15 07:34:59 2022
    On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:17:36 AM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    "CoLamer Trumpsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1l23h...@ryzen.lan:
    Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as
    low
    a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a
    speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the
    goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It's a
    hobby.

    If it could run faster, it would be sold as such. Do they really
    think the manufacturer doesn't know what they're doing?

    You're a goddamned idiot with no clue what CPU makers intend.

    Can't argue with you there. They guy is like a few others here, no interest at all in learning anything as he already knows everything.


    They are sold to last years at a given run rate. Overclockers pull
    down temps so they can increase that run speed and it has been that
    way since the 486.

    He literally doesn't understand the concept, plus, he's always afraid to admit he might be wrong and have something to learn. It would be such a blow to his world model with him at the center.

    Whatever. There's no point in responding to a number of posters here. I wish GG had a kill file.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Walliker@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 15 08:10:15 2022
    On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 15:35:04 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
    On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:17:36 AM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:


    They are sold to last years at a given run rate. Overclockers pull
    down temps so they can increase that run speed and it has been that
    way since the 486.

    Sometimes a cpu family turns out to have higher performance than is appropriate for its
    position in the marketing hierarchy. That is probably what leads to clock speeds
    being locked as the manufacturers don't want to cannibalise the market for their
    more expensive "higher performance" products.
    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Don on Sun May 15 12:00:50 2022
    On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:29:27 AM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins >> > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers >> > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all >> > aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's
    freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
    onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
    for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be
    so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
    to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
    is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop bi-metallic:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

    The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
    metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over- sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
    lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
    to a desktop motherboard instead.
    Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.

    I often get crosstalk from other threads when I try to post. I'm curious as to which thread the post will actually land in.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 15 12:03:34 2022
    On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 3:00:54 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:29:27 AM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is >> > > it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers >> > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's
    freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
    onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
    for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be
    so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
    to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
    is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop bi-metallic:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

    The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
    metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over- sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
    lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
    to a desktop motherboard instead.
    Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.
    I often get crosstalk from other threads when I try to post. I'm curious as to which thread the post will actually land in.

    Interesting, this post was made while viewing the Tesla is Fast thread.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun May 15 20:28:00 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:c2b88063-9360-45b3-9955-f73c7c4cf820n@googlegroups.com:

    He literally doesn't understand the concept, plus, he's always
    afraid to admit he might be wrong and have something to learn. It
    would be such a blow to his world model with him at the center.

    Whatever. There's no point in responding to a number of posters
    here. I wish GG had a kill file.

    --

    Rick C.

    The whole reason for downscaling is power reducetion and heay loss reducetion. These finfet etc designs conduct better as well, so all
    function improves, which should be a boon for OC folks.

    I remember my first AMD machine that fried the CPU and MOBO
    instantly from a less than interfaced heat sink.

    Then my second was a dual CPU design which was all I would own until
    now when they are multi core monsters. But even it had far better
    thermal management. ALL of my Intel i series builds never had a
    thermal problem. I am currently on a 12 core Xeon with a Quadro
    graphics card screaming out 3D designs and renderings like cake.
    Little bitty dust plugged fans still kep it cool, even those it
    exibits a bit of heat depending on what I do with it. I have to blow
    it out again soon. I don't use the little cans, I have a compressor
    tank. I use it on my laser engraver to blow the dust away as it
    'burns' a surface. I am really impresed with the quality of
    walmart's cheap tool line. I have an orbital sander that has dust
    collection and a bag built in and a dust cap on the power switch...
    really nice design, and it was $15 !!! No way! Back in the
    seventies an orbital cost you way more and those were way harder to
    get dollars then too. Amazing how electronic and electrical devices
    are about the only thing that still keeps the dream... better and
    better, and cheaper and cheaper (less pricey)life gets easier and the
    world never notices if they get raised around devices. They are
    oblivious to the path that got us here.

    You should see the technology in hospitals and even dental labs
    now... amazing stuff. As we croak, they'll have robots doing
    everything as they become fat body recliner potatoes like in
    that movie WALL-E. And the 'leaders' of the world go 'round nuking
    each other.

    I wonder if after today they are going to update the doomsday clock
    again. Jan 20 put it at 100 seconds to midnight.

    Sadly I think we are a lot closer than that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon May 16 08:18:06 2022
    On Sun, 15 May 2022 20:03:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 3:00:54 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:29:27 AM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is >> > >> > > it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
    cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the >> > >> > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's
    freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight >> > >> onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great >> > >> for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be >> > >> so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it >> > >> to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there >> > > is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop >> > bi-metallic:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

    The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
    metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over- >> > sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
    lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly >> > to a desktop motherboard instead.
    Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.
    I often get crosstalk from other threads when I try to post. I'm curious as to which thread the post will actually land in.

    Interesting, this post was made while viewing the Tesla is Fast thread.

    Are you drunk?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jaouad zarrabi@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 26 16:15:19 2022
    El lunes, 16 de mayo de 2022 a las 9:18:13 UTC+2, Commander Kinsey escribió:
    On Sun, 15 May 2022 20:03:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 3:00:54 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 12:29:27 AM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
    onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
    Commander Kinsey wrote:

    <snip>
    Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
    and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
    it just to make it look pretty?
    Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
    with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

    The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The >> > >> > cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
    aesthetic aspects.
    Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
    aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
    I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's >> > >> freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
    onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
    for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be
    so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
    to the air.

    https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

    but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
    is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

    Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop
    bi-metallic:

    https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

    The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
    metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over-
    sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
    lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
    to a desktop motherboard instead.
    Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.
    I often get crosstalk from other threads when I try to post. I'm curious as to which thread the post will actually land in.

    Interesting, this post was made while viewing the Tesla is Fast thread.
    Are you drunk?
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)