• Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

    From Jon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 11:53:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    +ACI-Commander Kinsey+ACI- +ADw-CK1+AEA-nospam.com+AD4- wrote in message news:op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z+AEA-ryzen.lan...
    +AD4- Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of +AD4- people, about a foot long pointer.

    I am sure there was one used in a willy wonka film.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Thu Apr 14 10:52:32 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Apr 14 12:13:31 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist somewhere.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 12:01:48 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's.
    There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jon on Thu Apr 14 12:14:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:53:20 +0100, Jon <jon@nospam.cn> wrote:


    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message news:op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan...
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    I am sure there was one used in a willy wonka film.

    That would give it artificially increased sentimental value. I don't want to pay over the odds.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 11:45:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Apr 14 12:27:28 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:01:48 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen.

    Doesn't look so good.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's.
    There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    I was in school in the 80s, and we had massive ones, looked like some kind of old fashioned weighscale from a fair. Very useful for the whole class to see the volts and amps in a circuit under demonstration.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to hubops@ccanoemail.ca on Thu Apr 14 12:28:19 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:12:14 +0100, <hubops@ccanoemail.ca> wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Easy to find :

    https://www.wayfair.ca/outdoor/pdp/la-crosse-technology-14-round-dial-thermometer-lct10071.html

    ps : you didn't specify what kind of "meter" ... ;-)

    Oops. Volts/amps please.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 12:22:41 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    In article <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.


    get a smaller one and a video camera.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Clive Arthur on Thu Apr 14 12:31:26 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations. Just a simple coil meter with a long lightweight pointer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 12:59:48 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 12:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:01:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen.

    Doesn't look so good.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's.
    There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    I was in school in the 80s, and we had massive ones, looked like some
    kind of old fashioned weighscale from a fair.  Very useful for the whole class to see the volts and amps in a circuit under demonstration.

    Make one yourself then. This is uk.d-i-y the clue is in the name!


    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Apr 14 13:03:55 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:59:48 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:01:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen.

    Doesn't look so good.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's.
    There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    I was in school in the 80s, and we had massive ones, looked like some
    kind of old fashioned weighscale from a fair. Very useful for the whole
    class to see the volts and amps in a circuit under demonstration.

    Make one yourself then. This is uk.d-i-y the clue is in the name!

    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 12:16:28 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From alan_m@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 12:24:10 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.


    Big screen TV with an analogue representation of a digital reading
    performed in software.

    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to charles on Thu Apr 14 12:38:43 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:22:41 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    get a smaller one and a video camera.

    It just isn't the same.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 22:45:24 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle.  They must exist
    somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters now.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Apr 14 13:57:52 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Dean Hoffman on Thu Apr 14 13:21:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:15:18 +0100, Dean Hoffman <deanh6929@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 7:04:03 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:59:48 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:01:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >> >>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen. >> >>
    Doesn't look so good.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's. >> >>> There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    I was in school in the 80s, and we had massive ones, looked like some
    kind of old fashioned weighscale from a fair. Very useful for the whole >> >> class to see the volts and amps in a circuit under demonstration.

    Make one yourself then. This is uk.d-i-y the clue is in the name!
    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them.

    Buy a few old ones on Ebay and pass them around. Depending on your budget, of course.
    It might be good for people to see the contrast in design.

    I can't find anything over 6 inches. I remember ones over a foot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to hubops@ccanoemail.ca on Thu Apr 14 14:00:34 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:00:17 +0100, <hubops@ccanoemail.ca> wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:28:19 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:12:14 +0100, <hubops@ccanoemail.ca> wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Easy to find :

    https://www.wayfair.ca/outdoor/pdp/la-crosse-technology-14-round-dial-thermometer-lct10071.html

    ps : you didn't specify what kind of "meter" ... ;-)

    Oops. Volts/amps please.

    Some vintage ones in a few of these pics :

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/design/g20681640/control-rooms/

    Oooh yeah! Where can I get something like that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 14:22:42 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 12:24, alan_m wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.


    Big screen TV with an analogue representation of a digital reading
    performed in software.

    Stepper motor and a counterbalanced pointer, and some drive electronics
    and some software.


    --
    "The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
    man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
    thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
    before him."

    - Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Apr 14 15:23:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:22:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:24, alan_m wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.


    Big screen TV with an analogue representation of a digital reading
    performed in software.

    Stepper motor and a counterbalanced pointer, and some drive electronics
    and some software.

    But they used to make them as just a normal meter, just a bigger pointer and coil.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 15:34:36 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 12:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle.  They must exist
    somewhere.


    www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175237367160?hash=item28ccf60578

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bertrand Sindri@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 15:08:05 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    In sci.electronics.design Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 14:22:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:24, alan_m wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Big screen TV with an analogue representation of a digital reading
    performed in software.

    Stepper motor and a counterbalanced pointer, and some drive
    electronics and some software.

    But they used to make them as just a normal meter, just a bigger
    pointer and coil.

    When the world went to meters with number readouts (digital meters)
    "they" saw their demand for analog needle movements crater. Over time
    "they" quit making analog needle movements all together.

    With the exception of a few niche markets (i.e., Simpson 260) you
    simply are *not* going to find a manufacturer making new product that
    meets your desires.

    Your choices are going to be: make it yourself or buy an antique (if
    you can find one, and if you are willing to pay what the current owner
    demands to part with the antique).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fredxx@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 16:30:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 12:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous
    voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations.  Just a simple coil meter
    with a long lightweight pointer.

    If it's that simple make one. This is a DIY group.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 16:55:26 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    In article <op.1kl8yqoymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor? Or just draw it digitally on a
    monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school,
    the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters
    now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 10:57:11 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/14/2022 05:31 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous
    voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations. Just a simple coil meter
    with a long lightweight pointer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aanenajtc1U

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From newshound@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 17:40:11 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 13:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:59:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:01:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a
    room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen. >>>
    Doesn't look so good.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's. >>>> There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    I was in school in the 80s, and we had massive ones, looked like some
    kind of old fashioned weighscale from a fair.  Very useful for the whole >>> class to see the volts and amps in a circuit under demonstration.

    Make one yourself then. This is uk.d-i-y the clue is in the name!

    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them.

    I can. Why would they?. As Martin says, just keep searching eBay.

    You will still be able to find large analogue pressure gauges, these are
    still used in industry.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Wade Garrett@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 13:59:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/14/22 6:45 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Something like this one?

    https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/clt/d/marietta-vintage-analog-43-range/7471256908.html

    --
    If a man says he will fix it, he will. There’s no need to remind him
    every three months.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Fri Apr 15 04:06:57 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 21:01:48 +1000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.

    It wouldn't be hard to start with a large analog clock.

    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's.
    There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Apr 14 13:18:34 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/14/2022 11:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/14/2022 05:31 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a
    room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous
    voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations.  Just a simple coil meter
    with a long lightweight pointer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aanenajtc1U


     I think using a meter to build a micro gram scale would be more fun.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta7nlkI5K5g

    Also if you extend the pointer, to make a large meter, I would suggest a
    meter that passes a milliamp
    vs 50 microamps. I think that would reduce error either side of center.
                                     Mikek


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Bennet@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 19:37:00 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 04:44:13 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:57:52 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room >>>>> of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters
    now.

    It just isn't the same.

    Yep, a big digital screen leaves it for dead and can do far
    more, show the most appropriate display, or a chart, or all
    of those at once etc etc etc. And that is why no one buys
    large analog volt and amp meters anymore and that is
    why you can't buy one anymore.

    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 18:39:48 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.


    Search Ebay for an RCA Senior Volt Ohmist. No foot long though, ya
    dope.

    Bigger than that... not likely. Your brain suffers from paralax
    error.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peeler@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 21:10:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 18:43:16 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, the absolutely brain dead, troll-feeding senile asshole, babbled again:


    Go away, fuckhead. You are worse than any of the trolls.

    As a troll's troll, you ain't all that bright, dumbfuck.

    You ARE just another troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE who INSISTS on his "right"
    to feed the dumbest, best-known, clinically insane troll and attention
    whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! It's part of your SENILITY! <BG>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sam E@21:1/5 to charles on Thu Apr 14 14:23:27 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/14/22 10:55, charles wrote:

    [snip]

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters
    now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    Battery acid per cell?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Jock on Thu Apr 14 15:45:30 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that pumping
    a tank of gas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Fri Apr 15 06:25:49 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,

    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    And the battery won't last anything like as long as a modern IC engine.
    My previous IC car lasted 45 years fine and only needed to be
    replaced because I was too stupid to fix the known windscreen leak
    with the car never garaged or car ported.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 14 14:04:28 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur <cl...@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations. Just a simple coil meter with a long lightweight pointer.

    Not so simple if you want accuracy. For one thing, the pointer ought to be counterweighted, not
    just lightweight. For another, the glass pane that protects the pointer must be grounded,
    or electrostatic charge will disrupt the reading. A d'Arsonval movement is hard to scale up
    and keep rugged; taut-band and such are improvements, but... servo is what's easily available for
    a DIY project.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Jock on Thu Apr 14 17:28:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
     I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,

    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping  a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.


    You may be right. Could be three years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peeler@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 00:10:10 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:02:15 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, an ESPECIALLY retarded, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered, yet again:


    You ARE just another troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE who INSISTS on
    his "right" to feed the dumbest, best-known, clinically insane
    troll and attention whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! It's part
    of your SENILITY! <BG>


    You inane posts "calling them out" Is FAR MORE LAME, YOU STUPID
    FUCKING TROLL BY PROXY.

    You could not be more stupid if you tried, putz!

    The truth hurts, eh, you demented senile idiot who INSISTS on his "right" to feed the very dumbest, best-known, clinically insane troll and attention
    whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! And, YES, that IS a typical SENILE
    thing, senile asshole! LOL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Peeler on Thu Apr 14 22:02:15 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    Peeler <trolltrap@valid.invalid> wrote in news:jl_5K.1457847$2c1.943632@usenetxs.com:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 18:43:16 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, the absolutely brain
    dead, troll-feeding senile asshole, babbled again:


    Go away, fuckhead. You are worse than any of the trolls.

    As a troll's troll, you ain't all that bright, dumbfuck.

    You ARE just another troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE who INSISTS on
    his "right" to feed the dumbest, best-known, clinically insane
    troll and attention whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! It's part
    of your SENILITY! <BG>


    You inane posts "calling them out" Is FAR MORE LAME, YOU STUPID
    FUCKING TROLL BY PROXY.

    You could not be more stupid if you tried, putz!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Commander Lamesey on Thu Apr 14 21:57:55 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    "Commander Lamesey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    news:op.1kl5atx8mvhs6z@ryzen.lan:


    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    get a smaller one and a video camera.

    It just isn't the same.

    You just aren't very bright.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Fri Apr 15 08:19:17 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:28:20 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    You may be right. Could be three years.

    Don't buy that either. And even if it was true, much more of a nuisance
    having to do it most days instead of once a week or so.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to Jock on Fri Apr 15 08:28:07 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 08:19:17 +1000, Jock <kdj@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:28:20 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    You may be right. Could be three years.

    Don't buy that either. And even if it was true, much more of a nuisance having to do it most days instead of once a week or so.

    And even if it was true, that would be the time to consider
    it if there was a problem with the current ic car, not now.

    The current ic car is doing fine and is only 16 years old
    and given the previous one lasted 45 years and only
    needed replacing because I was too stupid to fix the
    known leaking windscreen with the car never garaged
    or car ported, it is very unlikely I will be replacing the
    current one any time soon unless fully self driving cars
    are legally available at the same time as that battery.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Jock on Thu Apr 14 19:46:33 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/14/2022 6:19 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:28:20 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
     I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
     Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping  a tank of gas.

     Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    You may be right.  Could be three years.

    Don't buy that either. And even if it was true, much more of a nuisance having to do it most days instead of once a week or so.

    New models have a range comparable to a gas car, 350 to 400 miles.
    Yeah, takes 30 seconds to plug in twice a week. Still faster than
    stopping at a gas station.

    Rather than dwell on the negatives, educate yourself and you will find
    many have been overcome or will be soon.

    If I had need for two cars, one would be an EV today. Even now, it is
    good for 90% of my needs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Fri Apr 15 10:55:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:46:33 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 6:19 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:28:20 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>>
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery
    life.

    You may be right. Could be three years.

    Don't buy that either. And even if it was true, much more of a nuisance
    having to do it most days instead of once a week or so.

    New models have a range comparable to a gas car, 350 to 400 miles.

    Pity about the price of those.

    Yeah, takes 30 seconds to plug in twice a week.

    Not when your car isn't garaged or carported
    and that time is just plugging, not unplugging.

    Still faster than stopping at a gas station.

    Rather than dwell on the negatives,

    I'm not doing that, I am pointing out why an electric
    car is no use to me and isn't likely to ever be.

    educate yourself

    Been there, done that.

    and you will find many have been overcome

    None have.

    or will be soon.

    If they ever are, time to consider an electric car then,
    and whether they do better in any area than an ic car
    because if they don't, no point in having one.

    If I had need for two cars, one would be an EV today.

    I wouldn't, because the only advantage they have
    is the cost of refuelling and that isn't paid for by
    the much higher price of the car, particularly if
    you don't buy new, as so many don't.

    Even now, it is good for 90% of my needs.

    It has no advantage at all for any of mine, only real downsides.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 20:11:59 2022
    On 4/14/2022 4:04 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur <cl...@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>> people, about a foot long pointer.
    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.
    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations. Just a simple coil meter with a long lightweight pointer.
    Not so simple if you want accuracy. For one thing, the pointer ought to be counterweighted, not
    just lightweight. For another, the glass pane that protects the pointer must be grounded,
    or electrostatic charge will disrupt the reading. A d'Arsonval movement is hard to scale up
    and keep rugged; taut-band and such are improvements, but... servo is what's easily available for
    a DIY project.
    Ah, had not thought about the counter weight, I suggested a higher
    current meter, thinking that would
    counter the extra weight.
                          Mikek

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 14 18:22:37 2022
    amdx wrote:
    ================
    Whitless IDIOT whit3rd wrote:

    Not so simple if you want accuracy. For one thing, the pointer ought to be counterweighted, not
    just lightweight. For another, the glass pane that protects the pointer must be grounded,
    or electrostatic charge will disrupt the reading. A d'Arsonval movement is hard to scale up
    and keep rugged; taut-band and such are improvements, but... servo is what's easily available for
    a DIY project.

    Ah, had not thought about the counter weight,


    ** Moving coil meters all have them - excepting maybe some edge reading types.

    Essential to keep the scale linear.

    https://thefactfactor.com/facts/pure_science/physics/ammeter-and-voltmeter/5931/



    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 14:48:50 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.


    I have such a mechanism, except it doesn't have the pointer or scale
    fitted. In fact I have several.

    They are Texas Instruments chart recorders with moving coil mechanisms
    to deflect the pen across the chart. Later chart recorders use
    servomotors with potentiometers for positional feedback and small
    motors, but these ones just have an enormous moving coil mechanism and
    no feedback.

    There is an Alnico (or similar) horseshoe magnet about 5 inches in each dimension, with curved pole pieces attached, and coil about an inch and
    a half across, several inches long, in precision bearings, IIRC with a stationary cylindrical iron piece inside the coil to increase and shape
    the magnetic flux.

    I have no idea what use they could be but can't bring myself to throw
    them out. I guess they might be usable as laser galvos, though the coils
    are not optimised for low moment of inertia so I think they would not be
    great for that.

    Unfortunately unshielded magnets weighing more than several house bricks
    are not the kind of things that are easily sent in a parcel, and I live
    in Australia, otherwise I would try to sell you one, or give it to you
    if you asked nicely enough.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Peeler on Fri Apr 15 05:57:45 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    Peeler <trolltrap@valid.invalid> wrote in news:DZ06K.1984710$391.1978017@usenetxs.com:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:02:15 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, an ESPECIALLY retarded, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered, yet again:


    You ARE just another troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE who INSISTS on
    his "right" to feed the dumbest, best-known, clinically insane
    troll and attention whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! It's
    part of your SENILITY! <BG>


    You inane posts "calling them out" Is FAR MORE LAME, YOU
    STUPID
    FUCKING TROLL BY PROXY.

    You could not be more stupid if you tried, putz!

    The truth hurts, eh, you demented senile idiot who INSISTS on his
    "right" to feed the very dumbest, best-known, clinically insane
    troll and attention whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! And, YES,
    that IS a typical SENILE thing, senile asshole! LOL


    Says the retarded idiot unable to see that his follow along behind
    and berate posts are as trolling as it gets.

    You are truly pathetic, you stupid piece of shit.

    Your whore mother should be put in prison for failing to flush you
    the moment the severely ass fucked street slut shat you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to David on Fri Apr 15 08:57:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:34:36 +0100, David <david@nospam.org> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175237367160?hash=item28ccf60578

    Oh they're beautiful, but even older and better made than what I was remembering (hence those have a lot of antique value, 92+ is a bit much!), which was metal/plastic and cream coloured, sorta like the top part of these post office scales but painted
    cream, with just a voltage scale across it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to newshound on Fri Apr 15 08:59:01 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:40:11 +0100, newshound <sradcliffe544@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 13:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:59:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:01:48 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    A small one and a smartphone/tablet video fed to a decent sized screen. >>>>
    Doesn't look so good.

    You wouldn't be able to afford an analogue meter that large.
    Though you could build one from scratch in the true DIY fashion.

    Model 8 Avo is about as big as they ever realistically get now.

    ISTR Gallencamp (sp?) did larger ones for school labs back in the 70's. >>>>> There is a Unilab 8" one +/- 50 uA on eBay right now.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115332876615

    I was in school in the 80s, and we had massive ones, looked like some
    kind of old fashioned weighscale from a fair. Very useful for the whole >>>> class to see the volts and amps in a circuit under demonstration.

    Make one yourself then. This is uk.d-i-y the clue is in the name!

    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them.

    I can. Why would they?. As Martin says, just keep searching eBay.

    To quickly see a value from a distance.

    You will still be able to find large analogue pressure gauges, these are still used in industry.

    It's volts and amps I want.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Fredxx on Fri Apr 15 08:58:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:30:06 +0100, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous
    voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations. Just a simple coil meter
    with a long lightweight pointer.

    If it's that simple make one. This is a DIY group.

    Simple is a relative term, these were professionally made in a factory.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Wade Garrett on Fri Apr 15 09:00:28 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 18:59:09 +0100, Wade Garrett <Wade@cooler.net> wrote:

    On 4/14/22 6:45 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    Something like this one?

    https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/clt/d/marietta-vintage-analog-43-range/7471256908.html

    No a larger one so people can read it from 30 feet away.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Arie de Muijnck@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 10:05:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-15 09:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:34:36 +0100, David <david@nospam.org> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room >>>>> of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle.  They must exist
    somewhere.

    www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175237367160?hash=item28ccf60578

    Oh they're beautiful, but even older and better made than what I was remembering (hence those have a lot of antique value, £92+ is a bit
    much!), which was metal/plastic and cream coloured, sorta like the top
    part of these post office scales but painted cream, with just a voltage
    scale across it.


    £80 + shipping is certainly too much.

    All have centered needles for a +/- indicating instrument. All scales
    are NOT so.
    The 2nd is a really bad 'restoration' job with a non-fitting scale, not
    even aligned with the rotation center. The 3rd and 4th are also with a
    bad replaced scale, but at least centered.

    I'd say this is only worth $15 + shipping.

    Arie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Sam E on Fri Apr 15 09:09:37 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:23:27 +0100, Sam E <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

    On 4/14/22 10:55, charles wrote:

    [snip]

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters >>>> now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    Battery acid per cell?

    Cars run on acid cells use 90% of their power moving the weight of the lead.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to charles on Fri Apr 15 09:09:12 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:55:26 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <op.1kl8yqoymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor? Or just draw it digitally on a
    monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school,
    the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large meters
    now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    Space in the pistons added together is the usual measurement.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Clare Snyder on Fri Apr 15 09:10:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 01:47:58 +0100, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:53:20 +0100, "Jon" <jon@nospam.cn> wrote:


    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan...
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    I am sure there was one used in a willy wonka film.
    We had them in our highschool electronis shop. About a 24 inch face
    and 270 fegree scale.

    There must be some still kicking about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Fri Apr 15 09:11:27 2022
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:04:28 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:31:35 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 12:16:28 +0100, Clive Arthur <cl...@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >> >> people, about a foot long pointer.

    R/C servo with pointer, PIC with ADC, code.

    This shouldn't be necessary, in the 80s in school we had enormous voltmeters and ammeters for demonstrations. Just a simple coil meter with a long lightweight pointer.

    Not so simple if you want accuracy. For one thing, the pointer ought to be counterweighted, not
    just lightweight. For another, the glass pane that protects the pointer must be grounded,
    or electrostatic charge will disrupt the reading. A d'Arsonval movement is hard to scale up
    and keep rugged; taut-band and such are improvements, but... servo is what's easily available for
    a DIY project.

    These were for large voltages and currents (well something like 10V and 5 amps).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Chris Jones on Fri Apr 15 09:15:13 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:48:50 +0100, Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    I have such a mechanism, except it doesn't have the pointer or scale
    fitted. In fact I have several.

    They are Texas Instruments chart recorders with moving coil mechanisms
    to deflect the pen across the chart. Later chart recorders use
    servomotors with potentiometers for positional feedback and small
    motors, but these ones just have an enormous moving coil mechanism and
    no feedback.

    There is an Alnico (or similar) horseshoe magnet about 5 inches in each dimension, with curved pole pieces attached, and coil about an inch and
    a half across, several inches long, in precision bearings, IIRC with a stationary cylindrical iron piece inside the coil to increase and shape
    the magnetic flux.

    I have no idea what use they could be but can't bring myself to throw
    them out. I guess they might be usable as laser galvos, though the coils
    are not optimised for low moment of inertia so I think they would not be great for that.

    Unfortunately unshielded magnets weighing more than several house bricks
    are not the kind of things that are easily sent in a parcel, and I live
    in Australia, otherwise I would try to sell you one, or give it to you
    if you asked nicely enough.

    I see a lot of old chart recorders on Ebay, I might get one if I can find one closer to home. A lot are in the States.

    Pity you don't have rest of it or you could get some cash for it and someone could put it to good use.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Andy Bennet on Fri Apr 15 09:08:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Arie de Muijnck on Fri Apr 15 09:18:50 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:05:46 +0100, Arie de Muijnck <eternal.september@ademu.com> wrote:

    On 2022-04-15 09:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:34:36 +0100, David <david@nospam.org> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 12:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room >>>>>> of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the >>>> teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175237367160?hash=item28ccf60578

    Oh they're beautiful, but even older and better made than what I was
    remembering (hence those have a lot of antique value, 92+ is a bit
    much!), which was metal/plastic and cream coloured, sorta like the top
    part of these post office scales but painted cream, with just a voltage
    scale across it.


    80 + shipping is certainly too much.

    All have centered needles for a +/- indicating instrument. All scales
    are NOT so.
    The 2nd is a really bad 'restoration' job with a non-fitting scale, not
    even aligned with the rotation center. The 3rd and 4th are also with a
    bad replaced scale, but at least centered.

    I'd say this is only worth $15 + shipping.

    I wouldn't pay the 80 + shipping, but I'd say it was worth it to somebody, since they're antiques and rare.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peeler@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 10:46:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:57:45 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, an ESPECIALLY retarded, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered, yet again:

    The truth hurts, eh, you demented senile idiot who INSISTS on his
    "right" to feed the very dumbest, best-known, clinically insane
    troll and attention whore, sociopathic PHucker himself! And, YES,
    that IS a typical SENILE thing, senile asshole! LOL


    Says the retarded idiot unable to see that his follow along behind
    and berate posts are as trolling as it gets.

    You are truly pathetic, you stupid piece of shit.

    Your whore mother should be put in prison for failing to flush you
    the moment the severely ass fucked street slut shat you.

    Awww, the truth REALLY hurts ya, eh, you ESPECIALLY retarded troll-feeding senile shithead who REFUSES to see that he's playing the KNOWN,clinically insane troll's game ...simply because -like all senile assholes here- you
    are THANKFUL, in your senile misery, that a troll keeps engaging you! LOL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 10:00:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    In article <op.1knp9m1tmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:55:26 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kl8yqoymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor? Or just draw it digitally on
    a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school,
    the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must
    exist somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large
    meters now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    Space in the pistons added together is the usual measurement.

    you don't have pistons on an electric car.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Fri Apr 15 10:11:34 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that pumping
    a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now - then
    quietly forget the whole idea...

    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Bennet@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 10:05:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 09:08, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Use an arduino. Then you can use the arduino a/d convertor inputs as
    well for your measurement! win win!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 19:57:07 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 18:09:12 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:55:26 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kl8yqoymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
    <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor? Or just draw it digitally on a
    monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school,
    the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must
    exist
    somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large
    meters
    now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    Space in the pistons added together is the usual measurement.

    There are no pistons in an electric car, stupid.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to charles on Fri Apr 15 12:48:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:00:46 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <op.1knp9m1tmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:55:26 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kl8yqoymvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:45:24 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 14-Apr-22 9:13 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
    <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor? Or just draw it digitally on
    a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school,
    the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must
    exist somewhere.

    They may well have existed then, but given the modern alternatives
    suggested by Jan that exist, I doubt there's a market for large
    meters now.

    It just isn't the same. Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    6.2 litres of what?

    Space in the pistons added together is the usual measurement.

    you don't have pistons on an electric car.

    Clearly the units have to be converted.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Andy Bennet on Fri Apr 15 12:48:29 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:05:47 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 09:08, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Use an arduino. Then you can use the arduino a/d convertor inputs as
    well for your measurement! win win!

    Never played with those things. I only have 100 cores of Window PC.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 15 13:12:19 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 12:28, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:08:46 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1knp8wj5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Just for the sake of argument,
    and because posting to DIY and electronics.design
    driving an RC servo is not that hard:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
    you will have to learn PIC asm ;-)

    No. It can be done entirely in analogue. Servo motor controls a
    potentiometer that balances out a potential divider to match the
    incoming unknown voltage. Classic A level physics experiment.

    Put a needle on the shaft of the pot and you are done!

    It is how all servos were done once upon a time in the pre digital age.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Fri Apr 15 11:28:38 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:08:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1knp8wj5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Just for the sake of argument,
    and because posting to DIY and electronics.design
    driving an RC servo is not that hard:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
    you will have to learn PIC asm ;-)

    You may want to use a PIC with ADC so you can measure voltage
    I use a lot of 18F14K22 in all sort of projects
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    some other stuff:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html

    Here is an other of my PIC servo driver projects at work:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS_K4caj7vc
    camera acquiring and tracking object

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 08:17:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/15/2022 5:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that
    pumping a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same  battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now - then quietly forget the whole idea...


    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Cars today no longer have to be hand cranked to start and the top models
    even have heaters in them. Amazing the progress they made.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 12:43:53 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-14, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.

    use a regular size meter modified to have a glass back with an overhead projector.


    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Fri Apr 15 13:00:21 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:12:19 +0100) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <t3bnf4$17oc$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

    On 15/04/2022 12:28, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:08:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1knp8wj5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Just for the sake of argument,
    and because posting to DIY and electronics.design
    driving an RC servo is not that hard:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
    you will have to learn PIC asm ;-)

    No. It can be done entirely in analogue. Servo motor controls a
    potentiometer that balances out a potential divider to match the
    incoming unknown voltage. Classic A level physics experiment.

    Put a needle on the shaft of the pot and you are done!

    It is how all servos were done once upon a time in the pre digital age.

    This is about RC servos, easy to obtain anywhere at low cost for small ones,
    https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/hobby-servo-tutorial/all
    scroll down to 'Control Signal' for specs.

    Those servos have a chip to drive the motor and a potmeter feeds back to it as you described.
    The RC protocol is almost universal.
    Maybe you could hack one but then you need to design the drive electronics and comparator.
    Remember servo turns both ways... Would be a lot more work.
    Else SHOW us what you have.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Fri Apr 15 08:00:12 2022
    On 4/14/2022 8:22 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
    amdx wrote:
    ================
    Whitless IDIOT whit3rd wrote:
    Not so simple if you want accuracy. For one thing, the pointer ought to be counterweighted, not
    just lightweight. For another, the glass pane that protects the pointer must be grounded,
    or electrostatic charge will disrupt the reading. A d'Arsonval movement is hard to scale up
    and keep rugged; taut-band and such are improvements, but... servo is what's easily available for
    a DIY project.
    Ah, had not thought about the counter weight,

    ** Moving coil meters all have them - excepting maybe some edge reading types.

    Essential to keep the scale linear.

    https://thefactfactor.com/facts/pure_science/physics/ammeter-and-voltmeter/5931/



    ..... Phil

      Ya, I've had enough meters apart that after it was said, I remembered
    the counterweight on the opposite end of the pointer.
                                                         Mikek


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 13:02:54 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-15, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote:

    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    To make PWM from DC volts you'll need a ramp generator and a comparator.
    The ramp doen't need ot be perfectly linear, you can adjust the scale
    markings.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Peeler on Fri Apr 15 13:12:13 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-14, Peeler <trolltrap@valid.invalid> wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:02:15 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, an ESPECIALLY retarded, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered, yet again:


    feed the very dumbest, best-known, clinically insane troll and attention whore, sociopathic PHucker himself!

    Are you only here to chase this Kinsey chap. Occasionaly annoying,
    but nowhere near worst.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peeler@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 16:09:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:12:13 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts, another brain dead, troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered:


    DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org, an ESPECIALLY retarded,
    troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered, yet again:

    feed the very dumbest, best-known, clinically insane troll and attention
    whore, sociopathic PHucker himself!

    Are you only here to chase this Kinsey chap. Occasionaly annoying,
    but nowhere near worst.

    In know, you senile assholes LOVE him for what he does, as he provides so
    much more opportunities for you keep prattling happily and idiotically away
    in your senile manner! It IS a typical senile thing! <BG>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Fri Apr 15 15:40:41 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 13:17, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 5:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that
    pumping a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same  battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now -
    then quietly forget the whole idea...


    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature
    tech.

    Cars today no longer have to be hand cranked to start
    Nor have they been for the last 60 years

    and the top models
    even have heaters in them.

    I remember heaters in the 1950 cars

    Amazing the progress they made.

    Amazing the delusions you suffer from


    --
    “when things get difficult you just have to lie”

    ― Jean Claud Jüncker

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 10:50:40 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/15/2022 10:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 13:17, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 5:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that
    pumping a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same  battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now -
    then quietly forget the whole idea...


    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature tech.

    Cars today no longer have to be hand cranked to start
    Nor have they been for the last 60 years

     and the top models
    even have heaters in them.

    I remember heaters in the 1950 cars

     Amazing the progress they made.

    Amazing the delusions you suffer from


    I don't understand why people go into engineering and science.
    According to you, everything is already invented and will never get
    better. Nothing can or will be improved.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 15 11:21:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:12:19 +0100) it happened Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <t3bnf4$17oc$1@gioia.aioe.org>:

    On 15/04/2022 12:28, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:08:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1knp8wj5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Just for the sake of argument,
    and because posting to DIY and electronics.design
    driving an RC servo is not that hard:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
    you will have to learn PIC asm ;-)

    No. It can be done entirely in analogue. Servo motor controls a
    potentiometer that balances out a potential divider to match the
    incoming unknown voltage. Classic A level physics experiment.

    Put a needle on the shaft of the pot and you are done!

    It is how all servos were done once upon a time in the pre digital age.

    This is about RC servos, easy to obtain anywhere at low cost for small ones,
    https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/hobby-servo-tutorial/all
    scroll down to 'Control Signal' for specs.

    Those servos have a chip to drive the motor and a potmeter feeds back to it as you described.
    The RC protocol is almost universal.
    Maybe you could hack one but then you need to design the drive electronics and comparator.
    Remember servo turns both ways... Would be a lot more work.
    Else SHOW us what you have.


    RC servos are the bomb. I've used them to rotate diffraction gratings
    in spectrometers.

    For applications needing higher performance than a dial meter for demos,
    you can get Oilite bronze bearings, titanium gears, high speed, and gobs
    of torque for $150 in onesies.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cindy Hamilton@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 15:42:40 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.

    --
    Cindy Hamilton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From newshound@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 17:00:36 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 08:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:40:11 +0100, newshound <sradcliffe544@gmail.com>


    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them.

    I can. Why would they?. As Martin says, just keep searching eBay.

    To quickly see a value from a distance.

    You will still be able to find large analogue pressure gauges, these are
    still used in industry.

    It's volts and amps I want.

    Yes. And when, on the plant, they have volts they can drive an
    electronic device that is going to be cheaper, more accurate, have
    logging and remote transmission capability, be self illuminating, etc
    etc. And when it stops working they know the volts have stopped too.

    As I said, chemical plant still has a use for pressure gauges.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to newshound on Fri Apr 15 17:10:52 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 17:00:36 +0100, newshound <sradcliffe544@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 08:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:40:11 +0100, newshound <sradcliffe544@gmail.com>


    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them.

    I can. Why would they?. As Martin says, just keep searching eBay.

    To quickly see a value from a distance.

    You will still be able to find large analogue pressure gauges, these are >>> still used in industry.

    It's volts and amps I want.

    Yes. And when, on the plant, they have volts they can drive an
    electronic device that is going to be cheaper, more accurate, have
    logging and remote transmission capability, be self illuminating, etc
    etc. And when it stops working they know the volts have stopped too.

    But there's the basic idea a big analogue thing gives you a rough reading fast, and a digital one gives you an accurate reading slowly. Compare analogue clock face to digital watch. Compare analogue speedometer to digital.

    As I said, chemical plant still has a use for pressure gauges.

    Surely there are digital ones of those?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim+@21:1/5 to Cindy Hamilton on Fri Apr 15 17:13:47 2022
    XPost: uk.d-i-y, alt.home.repair

    Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@devnull.com> wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature
    tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.


    I think TNP has reached his “new tech” limit.

    The automatic headlights on my car are quite amazing. I haven’t worked out how the work but they’re a *lot* more sophisticated that a simple forward pointing photocell. I suspect some fairly serious image processing is going
    on.

    Tim

    --
    Please don't feed the trolls

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Fri Apr 15 18:39:48 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 15:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 10:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 13:17, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 5:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that
    pumping a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same  battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now -
    then quietly forget the whole idea...


    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty
    mature tech.

    Cars today no longer have to be hand cranked to start
    Nor have they been for the last 60 years

      and the top models
    even have heaters in them.

    I remember heaters in the 1950 cars

      Amazing the progress they made.

    Amazing the delusions you suffer from


    I don't understand why people go into engineering and science. According
    to you, everything is already invented and will never get better.
    Nothing can or will be improved.

    They go into engineering in order to ensure they dont waste millions of
    other peoples money trying to invent stuff that will never work, because
    it cannot work.

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    But believe what you will. Its nicer to beleive in warm cuddly
    optimistic shit rather than face reality.


    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Clare Snyder on Fri Apr 15 18:25:35 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 18:09:53 +0100, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 13:12:19 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 12:28, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Apr 2022 09:08:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1knp8wj5mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:37:00 +0100, Andy Bennet <aben@benj.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 14/04/2022 11:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of >>>>>> people, about a foot long pointer.

    just buy a cheap servo and put a chuffin great pointer on it!

    Doesn't that mean me designing a PWM controller?

    Just for the sake of argument,
    and because posting to DIY and electronics.design
    driving an RC servo is not that hard:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
    you will have to learn PIC asm ;-)

    No. It can be done entirely in analogue. Servo motor controls a
    potentiometer that balances out a potential divider to match the
    incoming unknown voltage. Classic A level physics experiment.

    Put a needle on the shaft of the pot and you are done!

    It is how all servos were done once upon a time in the pre digital age.
    But digital servos and arduinos make it SO much simpler!!!!!!

    If you know how to use one, I've never even seen one. Do I have to use Linux?

    And please stop removing the other groups, there are people discussing this in the UK and in an electronics group.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 18:44:04 2022
    XPost: uk.d-i-y, alt.home.repair

    On 15/04/2022 18:13, Tim+ wrote:
    Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@devnull.com> wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature >>> tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.


    I think TNP has reached his “new tech” limit.

    The automatic headlights on my car are quite amazing. I haven’t worked out how the work but they’re a *lot* more sophisticated that a simple forward pointing photocell. I suspect some fairly serious image processing is going on.

    Tim

    And how much has the increased the range?

    --
    “The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Cindy Hamilton on Fri Apr 15 18:43:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 16:42, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature
    tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.

    Oh golly, a reversing camera with smarts! That will really increase the
    range

    And what, pray *fundamental* difference does that make to the car?

    Here we are with car with a battery we cant mine the minerals for with
    a range that is inadequate and a charge time that is excessive.
    I mean LETS ADD A SMART REVERSING CAMERA instead of solving the
    insoluble problems and call it 'new tech'

    In my day we called it 'chrome, and tailfins'

    God you are pathetic.

    --
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
    foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

    (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 14:58:49 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/15/2022 1:39 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 15:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 10:40 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 13:17, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 5:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years.  They will be much better in many ways. New battery >>>>>> material, greater range, charging times not much different that
    pumping a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same  battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now -
    then quietly forget the whole idea...


    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty
    mature tech.

    Cars today no longer have to be hand cranked to start
    Nor have they been for the last 60 years

      and the top models
    even have heaters in them.

    I remember heaters in the 1950 cars

      Amazing the progress they made.

    Amazing the delusions you suffer from


    I don't understand why people go into engineering and science.
    According to you, everything is already invented and will never get
    better. Nothing can or will be improved.

    They go into engineering in order to ensure they dont waste millions of
    other peoples money trying to invent stuff that will never work, because
    it cannot work.

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    But believe what you will. Its nicer to beleive in warm cuddly
    optimistic shit rather than face reality.


    In 1889, Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office. He
    is widely quoted as having stated that the patent office would soon
    shrink in size, and eventually close, because… “Everything that can be invented has been invented.”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 15:01:21 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/15/2022 1:43 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 16:42, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature >>> tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford.  He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle.  He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights.  He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.

    Oh golly, a reversing camera with smarts! That will really increase the
    range

    And what, pray *fundamental* difference does that make to the car?

    Here we are with  car with a battery we cant mine the minerals for with
    a range that is inadequate and a charge time that is excessive.
    I mean LETS ADD A SMART REVERSING CAMERA instead of solving the
    insoluble problems and call it 'new tech'

    In my day we called it 'chrome, and tailfins'

    God you are pathetic.


    No, you are pathetic. See my post about the new battery materials in
    the works. Sorry you cannot see the future. It will be fun for those of
    us that embrace it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cindy Hamilton@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 20:27:03 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.home.repair.]
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 16:42, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature >>> tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.

    Oh golly, a reversing camera with smarts! That will really increase the
    range

    Why are you obsessed with range? In any event, the range for EVs
    increased from a little over 250 miles in 2015 to almost 400 miles in
    2020.

    There are more than 10 million electric cars on the road worldwide.
    That's not penny ante.

    And what, pray *fundamental* difference does that make to the car?

    Here we are with car with a battery we cant mine the minerals for with
    a range that is inadequate and a charge time that is excessive.
    I mean LETS ADD A SMART REVERSING CAMERA instead of solving the
    insoluble problems and call it 'new tech'

    This tech (and a lot of other new tech) works on internal combustion
    cars as well as electrics.

    In my day we called it 'chrome, and tailfins'

    God you are pathetic.

    Takes one to know one.

    --
    Cindy Hamilton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cindy Hamilton@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 20:22:56 2022
    XPost: uk.d-i-y, alt.home.repair

    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 18:13, Tim+ wrote:
    Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@devnull.com> wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature >>>> tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.


    I think TNP has reached his “new tech” limit.

    The automatic headlights on my car are quite amazing. I haven’t worked out >> how the work but they’re a *lot* more sophisticated that a simple forward >> pointing photocell. I suspect some fairly serious image processing is going >> on.

    Tim

    And how much has the increased the range?

    Range isn't the only criterion for better headlights.

    <https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/17/22937489/nhtsa-allows-adb-adaptive-driving-beam-technology>

    --
    Cindy Hamilton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 22:27:33 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-14 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle.  They must exist
    somewhere.

    It may be stuff specific for schools, not really for labs or industry.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cindy Hamilton@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Apr 15 20:28:19 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    --
    Cindy Hamilton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Fri Apr 15 21:46:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
    On 2022-04-14 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter?  Big enough to show to a room >>>> of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle.  They must exist
    somewhere.

    It may be stuff specific for schools, not really for labs or industry.

    Indeed. And a lot of that stuff just isn't made any more,
    like orrery's, which used to be in every gradeschool science class.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Apr 15 19:55:25 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 2:11:02 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 17:00:36 +0100, newshound <sradcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 08:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:40:11 +0100, newshound <sradcl...@gmail.com>


    Easier to press a button on Ebay, I can't believe nobody makes them. >>>
    I can. Why would they?. As Martin says, just keep searching eBay.

    To quickly see a value from a distance.

    You will still be able to find large analogue pressure gauges, these are >>> still used in industry.

    It's volts and amps I want.

    Yes. And when, on the plant, they have volts they can drive an
    electronic device that is going to be cheaper, more accurate, have
    logging and remote transmission capability, be self illuminating, etc
    etc. And when it stops working they know the volts have stopped too.

    But there's the basic idea a big analogue thing gives you a rough reading fast, and a digital one gives you an accurate reading slowly. Compare analogue clock face to digital watch. Compare analogue speedometer to digital.

    Digital can give you what you want when you want it. It can be faster and sloppier than analog if that's what you design it to do.

    Displays don't have to have any mechanical inertia.

    As I said, chemical plant still has a use for pressure gauges.

    Surely there are digital ones of those?

    Of course. Honeywell has been making integrated circuit pressure sensors for decades now. You've got to wrap some extra electronics around them to provide a display that the human plant operators can read, and the display is chosen to suit what the plant
    operators want.

    https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/pressure-sensors/2023537

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Cindy Hamilton on Sat Apr 16 11:06:34 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.

    The only radical breakthrough in the last 20 years has been the solid
    state disk.

    Curiously not invented by Clive Sinclair or James Dyson, but by real
    engineers working in large companies.



    --
    "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
    puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sat Apr 16 11:03:14 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 15/04/2022 19:58, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    In 1889, Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office. He
    is widely quoted as having stated that the patent office would soon
    shrink in size, and eventually close, because… “Everything that can be invented has been invented.”

    in 2021, the patent office has on file millions of patents of which less
    than 1% actually proved useful.


    --
    In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
    gets full Marx.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From RJH@21:1/5 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Apr 16 10:35:52 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    --
    Cheers, Rob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to RJH on Sat Apr 16 11:37:56 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 11:35:52 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.

    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    And this feat of breaking the laws of physics is achieved by?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Apr 16 11:53:30 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 11:52:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    I like the comparison between Z80 and Apple. About equally usable really.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to RJH on Sat Apr 16 11:52:08 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Sat Apr 16 12:13:25 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 22:46:47 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
    On 2022-04-14 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room >>>>> of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    It may be stuff specific for schools, not really for labs or industry.

    Indeed. And a lot of that stuff just isn't made any more,
    like orrery's, which used to be in every gradeschool science class.

    I'm sure they're in some science museums. I guess now we have to make do with pictures on a computer screen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cindy Hamilton@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Apr 16 11:39:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.

    The only radical breakthrough in the last 20 years has been the solid
    state disk.

    Radical breakthroughs aren't how things happen. Slow and steady wins
    the race.

    --
    Cindy Hamilton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to patchmoney@gmx.com on Sat Apr 16 11:40:04 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:35:52 -0000 (UTC)) it happened RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in <t3e668$vfh$1@dont-email.me>
    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of >the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    The new Green computers will be powered by the cooling fans in reverse
    Just keep th'm in the wind.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sat Apr 16 13:06:02 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 12:40:04 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 2022 10:35:52 -0000 (UTC)) it happened RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote in <t3e668$vfh$1@dont-email.me>
    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    The new Green computers will be powered by the cooling fans in reverse
    Just keep th'm in the wind.

    ROFL! I sold a wind turbine to a yacht person. I wonder if it slowed down the yacht in an equivalent amount to the cups of coffee he brewed with it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Clare Snyder on Sat Apr 16 12:18:07 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 04:13:36 +0100, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:46:47 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
    On 2022-04-14 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room >>>>>> of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school, the >>>> teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    It may be stuff specific for schools, not really for labs or industry.

    Indeed. And a lot of that stuff just isn't made any more,
    like orrery's, which used to be in every gradeschool science class.
    There was a small local company that made a lot of the stuff for
    schools across Canada and I believe the USA as well. Can't remember
    the name.
    Then there was another company - Ritz Electronics? in New Dundee that
    made a lot of custom stiff too

    Make your own town names. Dundee belongs to Scotland and is where I was born.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to RJH on Sat Apr 16 13:58:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    It says its just another ARM chip, invented *37 years ago* and used in
    every mobile phone...


    ArtStudents™ think Marketing is engineering.
    Bless!

    --
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

    ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
    M. de Voltaire

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From RJH@21:1/5 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Apr 16 12:31:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1
    --
    Cheers, Rob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to RJH on Sat Apr 16 13:38:51 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Cindy Hamilton on Sat Apr 16 13:56:14 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16/04/2022 12:39, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.

    The only radical breakthrough in the last 20 years has been the solid
    state disk.

    Radical breakthroughs aren't how things happen. Slow and steady wins
    the race.

    Hand wavey platitude.

    In 1976 I got 50mpg out of my car. In 2020 I got 50 mpg...

    --
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

    ― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
    M. de Voltaire

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 16 06:16:02 2022
    lørdag den 16. april 2022 kl. 14.58.53 UTC+2 skrev The Natural Philosopher:
    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1
    It says its just another ARM chip, invented *37 years ago* and used in
    every mobile phone...

    sure, in the same way the latest Intel CPU is "just another x86 invented 44 years ago"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Sat Apr 16 14:55:47 2022
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 14:16:02 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    lrdag den 16. april 2022 kl. 14.58.53 UTC+2 skrev The Natural Philosopher:
    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> >>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >> >>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1
    It says its just another ARM chip, invented *37 years ago* and used in
    every mobile phone...

    sure, in the same way the latest Intel CPU is "just another x86 invented 44 years ago"

    Like Apple could make something better than Intel. Hang on, don't Apple subcontract CPUs?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From RJH@21:1/5 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Apr 16 15:10:50 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 13:58:46 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    It says its just another ARM chip, invented *37 years ago* and used in
    every mobile phone...


    Nope. Apple Mac mini M1 power consumption is 3 times lower than Intel model:
    A testament of Apple Silicon's efficiency

    https://www.techspot.com/news/88482-apple-mac-mini-m1-power-consumption-3-times.html


    ArtStudents™ think Marketing is engineering.
    Bless!

    Really?

    --
    Cheers, Rob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to RJH on Sat Apr 16 16:32:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:10:50 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 13:58:46 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    It says its just another ARM chip, invented *37 years ago* and used in
    every mobile phone...

    Nope. Apple Mac mini M1 power consumption is 3 times lower than Intel model: A testament of Apple Silicon's efficiency

    https://www.techspot.com/news/88482-apple-mac-mini-m1-power-consumption-3-times.html

    Yeah right, someone can make a better chip than Intel. ROTFPMSL!

    ArtStudents™ think Marketing is engineering.
    Bless!

    Really?

    Yes really. ART, not Engineering. Different mindset entirely.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to RJH on Sat Apr 16 17:38:56 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16/04/2022 16:10, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 13:58:46 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    It says its just another ARM chip, invented *37 years ago* and used in
    every mobile phone...


    Nope. Apple Mac mini M1 power consumption is 3 times lower than Intel model: A testament of Apple Silicon's efficiency

    Oh dear. You are so ignorant you do not even know what and ARM chip is.
    https://www.techspot.com/news/88482-apple-mac-mini-m1-power-consumption-3-times.html

    See above.

    ArtStudents™ think Marketing is engineering.
    Bless!

    Really?

    In your case yes.

    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 04:31:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 20:37:56 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 11:35:52 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can
    do
    is add more cores.

    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a
    third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    And this feat of breaking the laws of physics is achieved by?

    No breaking of any laws of physics involves, just better design.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 04:33:18 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 21:13:25 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 22:46:47 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
    On 2022-04-14 13:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:52:32 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100) it happened
    "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kl2tgobmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a
    room
    of people, about a foot long pointer.

    Use a small one, camera and monitor?
    Or just draw it digitally on a monitor?

    Could do, but I remember a long long time ago when I was at school,
    the
    teacher had a voltmeter with a foot long needle. They must exist
    somewhere.

    It may be stuff specific for schools, not really for labs or industry.

    Indeed. And a lot of that stuff just isn't made any more,
    like orrery's, which used to be in every gradeschool science class.

    I'm sure they're in some science museums. I guess now we have to make
    do with pictures on a computer screen.

    It isn't make do, it is vastly better. That's why there isn't a market for
    the old stuff anymore.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sun Apr 17 05:05:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:56:14 +1000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 12:39, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can
    do
    is add more cores.

    The only radical breakthrough in the last 20 years has been the solid
    state disk.

    Radical breakthroughs aren't how things happen.

    Some of the time it is, most obviously with solid state disks,
    led lights, ECMs in cars, inductive charging etc etc etc.

    Slow and steady wins the race.

    Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it takes
    a radical breakthru like with flying, nuclear power etc etc etc.

    Hand wavey platitude.

    In 1976 I got 50mpg out of my car. In 2020 I got 50 mpg...

    And modern cars require far less tuning and are
    much more reliable than one that is 50 years old.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jimmy Farley@21:1/5 to Jock on Sat Apr 16 20:31:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 4/16/2022 3:05:09 PM, Jock wrote:
    And modern cars require far less tuning and are
    much more reliable than one that is 50 years old.


    In 1979, my wife and I bought a new Ford Mustang. On the way home from the dealer, the engine stalled at every stoplight.

    Fast forward to 2017 when I bought a new Ford Escape. Yup, you guessed it. On the way home from the dealer, the engine stalled at every stoplight.

    Apparently the engineers couldn't keep the engine running at low RPM so the marketing department named the "feature" Auto Start/Stop technology.


    ( Seriously though, the Escape has been awesome. We plan to buy an Explorer soon. )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 06:54:53 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 06:31:39 +1000, Jimmy Farley <jimmy.farley@fake.id>
    wrote:

    On 4/16/2022 3:05:09 PM, Jock wrote:
    And modern cars require far less tuning and are
    much more reliable than one that is 50 years old.


    In 1979, my wife and I bought a new Ford Mustang. On the way home from
    the dealer, the engine stalled at every stoplight.

    Fast forward to 2017 when I bought a new Ford Escape. Yup, you guessed
    it. On the way home from the dealer, the engine stalled at every
    stoplight.

    Apparently the engineers couldn't keep the engine running at low RPM so
    the marketing department named the "feature" Auto Start/Stop technology.


    ( Seriously though, the Escape has been awesome. We plan to buy an
    Explorer soon. )

    Dunno, I have watch recent denials by Ford about their engines
    failing and wouldn't touch a Ford myself. I prefer Hyundais.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 16 23:20:48 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org on Sat Apr 16 20:03:59 2022
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:20:48 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    The long-term problem with Intel is that they cannot let go of the x86 architecture, and over time this has become severely limiting.

    Apple had the same problem, but eventually did transition from
    Motorola CPUs to Intel, gaining the ability to run Windows on Apple
    desktop and laptop computers. But the Intel architecture had become
    too hide-bound, and Apple was more or less forced to escape.

    But I wonder how well and how long Apple's new M1 architecture will be
    able to support running Windows OS and software, which is exactly what
    I'm using as I type these words. (iMac (with lots of memory),
    Parallels, Win10, Forte Agent.)

    I may stay on Intel for that reason, for desktops, but iPhones and
    iPads will go M1, because I have no reason to retain Intel there. But
    I will wait for the few apps I use to have become mature on M1 first.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Sat Apr 16 18:38:34 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to program in assembler even if it does take more lines.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Apr 16 21:48:07 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 1:32:48 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:10:50 +0100, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 13:58:46 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 16/04/2022 13:31, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    <snip>

    Nope. Apple Mac mini M1 power consumption is 3 times lower than Intel model:
    A testament of Apple Silicon's efficiency

    Not exactly. More of a testament to the silicon foundry that turned Apple's processor design into an integrated circuit.

    https://www.techspot.com/news/88482-apple-mac-mini-m1-power-consumption-3-times.html

    Yeah right, someone can make a better chip than Intel. ROTFPMSL!

    Of course they can. Intel's silicon foundry has been lagging the state of the art for a few years now. They've now bought one that they hope can do better.

    https://fortune.com/2022/02/15/intel-tower-semiconductor-foundry-acquisition-fabless-chips-rivals-nvidia-amd-qualcomm-tsmc/

    ArtStudents™ think Marketing is engineering.
    Bless!

    Really?

    Yes really. ART, not Engineering. Different mindset entirely.

    Marketing is a kind of engineering - describing what you have to sell in terms that make it look attractive to people who don't actually know what they are buying, without leaving any room for lawyer to charge you with fraud. The tools involved are
    words, and Commander Kinsey doesn't know what they mean - or at least not exactly enough to realise what is involved.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jimmy.farley@fake.id on Sun Apr 17 06:55:04 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 22 20:31:39 UTC) it happened Jimmy Farley <jimmy.farley@fake.id> wrote in <yCPhHhTpuqyZjmKLJmgwJTVvZQiJtetO@news.usenet.farm>:

    On 4/16/2022 3:05:09 PM, Jock wrote:
    And modern cars require far less tuning and are
    much more reliable than one that is 50 years old.


    In 1979, my wife and I bought a new Ford Mustang. On the way home from the dealer, the engine stalled at every stoplight.

    Lemme see, around 1973 I had a Ford Mustang V8 Cobra Special
    Never stalled at stoplights,.. Out of there fast :-)


    Fast forward to 2017 when I bought a new Ford Escape. Yup, you guessed it. On the way home from the dealer, the engine stalled
    at every stoplight.

    Apparently the engineers couldn't keep the engine running at low RPM so the marketing department named the "feature" Auto
    Start/Stop technology.

    Maybe saves fuel?
    With today's prices not a bad idea?


    ( Seriously though, the Escape has been awesome. We plan to buy an Explorer soon. )




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Sun Apr 17 11:06:01 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 17/04/2022 00:20, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're
    constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do >>>>>> is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    In terms of power consumption, yes, but is that the be all and end all
    of 'efficiency'?


    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 11:09:50 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 17/04/2022 01:38, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too.  And they're >>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they >>>>>>> can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and >>>>>> a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to program in assembler even if it does take more lines.

    I've not found any ARM will beat a late model Intel yet, but there is no
    reason why ultimately it shouldn't. After all most CISC processors are
    RISC processors with microcode.

    But the point here is that Apple didn't 'design' the chip any more than
    it designed the 6502, 6800, power PC or Intel chips.


    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Apr 17 13:56:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:06:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/04/2022 00:20, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    In terms of power consumption, yes, but is that the be all and end all
    of 'efficiency'?

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number of programs they can run.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 14:03:23 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:38:34 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm.

    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to program in assembler even if it does take more lines.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Apr 17 14:03:54 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:09:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/04/2022 01:38, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they >>>>>>>> can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and >>>>>>> a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to program in
    assembler even if it does take more lines.

    I've not found any ARM will beat a late model Intel yet, but there is no reason why ultimately it shouldn't. After all most CISC processors are
    RISC processors with microcode.

    But the point here is that Apple didn't 'design' the chip any more than
    it designed the 6502, 6800, power PC or Intel chips.

    So the high speed is just magic then?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 17 13:55:55 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:03:59 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:20:48 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    The long-term problem with Intel is that they cannot let go of the x86 architecture, and over time this has become severely limiting.

    Apple had the same problem, but eventually did transition from
    Motorola CPUs to Intel, gaining the ability to run Windows on Apple
    desktop and laptop computers. But the Intel architecture had become
    too hide-bound, and Apple was more or less forced to escape.

    But I wonder how well and how long Apple's new M1 architecture will be
    able to support running Windows OS and software, which is exactly what
    I'm using as I type these words. (iMac (with lots of memory),
    Parallels, Win10, Forte Agent.)

    I may stay on Intel for that reason, for desktops, but iPhones and
    iPads will go M1, because I have no reason to retain Intel there. But
    I will wait for the few apps I use to have become mature on M1 first.

    So a speed change but no compatibility? Bit of a bugger to change every program's coding.

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Sun Apr 17 14:01:30 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krswpr1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 15:31:56 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:01:30 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krswpr1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    Most people have trouble using Windows, nevermind Linux.

    Anyway, I run a lot of science research programs (see Boinc) and I think out of about 40 projects, only 5 run on ARM. They just don't see the point in recoding everything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 15:08:45 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    As for the "more ram" for code, that's not necessarily true either,
    as all risc instructions are fixed (2 or 4 bytes depending) while
    the intel instructions can be much longer than 4 bytes; plus the
    variable length instructions on x86 complicate instruction decoding
    and make out-of-order execution more complicated.

    Fact is that the Apple Aarch64 processor is better than the intel
    processors in almost every way, including performance per watt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 08:39:52 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:32:05 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:01:30 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krsw...@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    Most people have trouble using Windows, nevermind Linux.

    Possibly true, but totally irrelevant. Most people can't do differential calculus either.

    Anyway, I run a lot of science research programs (see Boinc) and I think out of about 40 projects, only 5 run on ARM. They just don't see the point in recoding everything.

    You are one of the volunteers who runs other peoples programs on your computer. The people who write the programs write them to run on the most popular hardware, rather than the most powerful hardware, because there's more of the popular hardware around.

    I've got a Windows partition on my computer which gets much more heavily used than the Linux partition - hardly anybody I know uses Linux, and what we swap around is what everybody can use.

    For years I had the gEDA circuit design program running on my Linux partition, but then KiCAD came out, which also runs under Windows. I haven't done much with either program, but it was comforting to have them there against the possibility that an
    interesting problem might crop up.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Sun Apr 17 16:46:46 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    As for the "more ram" for code, that's not necessarily true either,
    as all risc instructions are fixed (2 or 4 bytes depending) while
    the intel instructions can be much longer than 4 bytes; plus the
    variable length instructions on x86 complicate instruction decoding
    and make out-of-order execution more complicated.

    Fact is that the Apple Aarch64 processor is better than the intel
    processors in almost every way, including performance per watt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 10:25:15 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:09:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/04/2022 01:38, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked >>>>>>>>> any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they >>>>>>>>> can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and >>>>>>>> a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to program in >>> assembler even if it does take more lines.

    I've not found any ARM will beat a late model Intel yet, but there is no
    reason why ultimately it shouldn't. After all most CISC processors are
    RISC processors with microcode.

    But the point here is that Apple didn't 'design' the chip any more than
    it designed the 6502, 6800, power PC or Intel chips.

    So the high speed is just magic then?

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/intel-hires-apple-engineer-who-helped-develop-m1-mac-chips

    There's a guy who must have NDA's up the wazoo...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 10:17:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 12:55 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 22 20:31:39 UTC) it happened Jimmy Farley <jimmy.farley@fake.id> wrote in <yCPhHhTpuqyZjmKLJmgwJTVvZQiJtetO@news.usenet.farm>:

    On 4/16/2022 3:05:09 PM, Jock wrote:
    And modern cars require far less tuning and are
    much more reliable than one that is 50 years old.

    In 1979, my wife and I bought a new Ford Mustang. On the way home from the dealer, the engine stalled at every stoplight.
    Lemme see, around 1973 I had a Ford Mustang V8 Cobra Special
    Never stalled at stoplights,.. Out of there fast :-)



    I had a '73 but after I piled it up one foggy morning I switched to
    Camaros and Firebirds. The 2nd generation of Mustangs were Pintos with lipstick. It took Ford a long time to get back to a real car.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Sun Apr 17 16:51:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:46:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr0r8vvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble
    writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    from the eighties, CP/M clone:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Sun Apr 17 16:41:10 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:31:56 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krxbi2lmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:01:30 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krswpr1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    Most people have trouble using Windows, nevermind Linux.

    Anyway, I run a lot of science research programs (see Boinc) and I think out of about 40 projects, only 5 run on ARM. They just
    don't see the point in recoding everything.

    Well, I have written loads of programs for x86 in C for Unix / Linux
    Ported all I use to Raspberries..
    The breaking point is sometimes the libraries,
    I try to avoid linking in libraries anyways if possible, I had to port some existing ones and change those.
    So its work, but everything I normally use now also runs on raspis.
    My PC is off these days, 5 raspberries in the room, 3 on 24/7, 1 on all day as router, and 1 for experiments.
    Only time PC is on is for adjusting satellite dish and HAM radio QO100 stuff that software has already been recompiled on the raspi, needs a new USB DVB-S2 tuner compatible with the Linux kernel.
    Low priority.
    Surviving WW3 comes first ?
    Anyways one big EMP and all those cellphones and puters and electric power are no more.
    Then you need an abacus :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 17:53:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:25:15 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:09:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/04/2022 01:38, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked >>>>>>>>>> any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they >>>>>>>>>> can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and >>>>>>>>> a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1 >>>>>>
    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC >>>> and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to program in >>>> assembler even if it does take more lines.

    I've not found any ARM will beat a late model Intel yet, but there is no >>> reason why ultimately it shouldn't. After all most CISC processors are
    RISC processors with microcode.

    But the point here is that Apple didn't 'design' the chip any more than
    it designed the 6502, 6800, power PC or Intel chips.

    So the high speed is just magic then?

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/intel-hires-apple-engineer-who-helped-develop-m1-mac-chips

    There's a guy who must have NDA's up the wazoo...

    So if he makes an Intel chip based on ideas in Apple, how do they prove it? It's like saying that song sounds a bit like that one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 17:54:43 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm.

    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 17:55:45 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:41:10 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:31:56 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krxbi2lmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:01:30 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krswpr1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    Most people have trouble using Windows, nevermind Linux.

    Anyway, I run a lot of science research programs (see Boinc) and I think out of about 40 projects, only 5 run on ARM. They just
    don't see the point in recoding everything.

    Well, I have written loads of programs for x86 in C for Unix / Linux
    Ported all I use to Raspberries..
    The breaking point is sometimes the libraries,
    I try to avoid linking in libraries anyways if possible, I had to port some existing ones and change those.

    How much work is it? And can everything be ported? You could do a lot of good on the boinc projects.

    So its work, but everything I normally use now also runs on raspis.
    My PC is off these days, 5 raspberries in the room, 3 on 24/7, 1 on all day as router, and 1 for experiments.
    Only time PC is on is for adjusting satellite dish and HAM radio QO100 stuff that software has already been recompiled on the raspi, needs a new USB DVB-S2 tuner compatible with the Linux kernel.
    Low priority.
    Surviving WW3 comes first ?
    Anyways one big EMP and all those cellphones and puters and electric power are no more.
    Then you need an abacus :-)

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 17:56:59 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:51:47 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:46:46 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr0r8vvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble
    writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so? I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    from the eighties, CP/M clone:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Sun Apr 17 13:11:56 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:03:59 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:20:48 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
    <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    The long-term problem with Intel is that they cannot let go of the x86
    architecture, and over time this has become severely limiting.

    Apple had the same problem, but eventually did transition from
    Motorola CPUs to Intel, gaining the ability to run Windows on Apple
    desktop and laptop computers. But the Intel architecture had become
    too hide-bound, and Apple was more or less forced to escape.

    But I wonder how well and how long Apple's new M1 architecture will be
    able to support running Windows OS and software, which is exactly what
    I'm using as I type these words. (iMac (with lots of memory),
    Parallels, Win10, Forte Agent.)

    I may stay on Intel for that reason, for desktops, but iPhones and
    iPads will go M1, because I have no reason to retain Intel there. But
    I will wait for the few apps I use to have become mature on M1 first.

    So a speed change but no compatibility? Bit of a bugger to change every program's coding.

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?

    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions, one of which I was
    in. One long wall of our meeting room ad a very large mirror, one
    that looked a bit odd. It was half-silvered, and there were observers
    watching the from behind that "mirror".

    The questions wandered around, then eventually converged. We all knew
    that Apple was moving to Intel, as this had bee reported extensively
    in the trade press. The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 17 18:13:56 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:11:56 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:03:59 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote: >>
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:20:48 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
    <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    The long-term problem with Intel is that they cannot let go of the x86
    architecture, and over time this has become severely limiting.

    Apple had the same problem, but eventually did transition from
    Motorola CPUs to Intel, gaining the ability to run Windows on Apple
    desktop and laptop computers. But the Intel architecture had become
    too hide-bound, and Apple was more or less forced to escape.

    But I wonder how well and how long Apple's new M1 architecture will be
    able to support running Windows OS and software, which is exactly what
    I'm using as I type these words. (iMac (with lots of memory),
    Parallels, Win10, Forte Agent.)

    I may stay on Intel for that reason, for desktops, but iPhones and
    iPads will go M1, because I have no reason to retain Intel there. But
    I will wait for the few apps I use to have become mature on M1 first.

    So a speed change but no compatibility? Bit of a bugger to change every program's coding.

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?

    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    But below you say you can emulate.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions, one of which I was
    in. One long wall of our meeting room ad a very large mirror, one
    that looked a bit odd. It was half-silvered, and there were observers watching the from behind that "mirror".

    The questions wandered around, then eventually converged. We all knew
    that Apple was moving to Intel, as this had bee reported extensively
    in the trade press. The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 10:39:40 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm.

    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 10:28:37 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:46:58 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
    rbowman <bow...@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:

    <snip>

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    Sounds like a discussion I heard at a software review meeting in the 1980's, except the target mentioned was 16k and the modern programmer pointed out that the traditional program didn't have comprehensive exception handling, and crashed from time to
    time in consequence.

    Doing the job properly does require more code. As soon as you have got enough memory space to write looser code, you can write it in ways that make it easier to review, easier to debug or maybe even provably correct.

    -
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Sun Apr 17 17:17:43 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:55:45 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr3y7nhmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:41:10 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:31:56 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krxbi2lmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:01:30 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krswpr1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number
    of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    Most people have trouble using Windows, nevermind Linux.

    Anyway, I run a lot of science research programs (see Boinc) and I think out of about 40 projects, only 5 run on ARM. They
    just
    don't see the point in recoding everything.

    Well, I have written loads of programs for x86 in C for Unix / Linux
    Ported all I use to Raspberries..
    The breaking point is sometimes the libraries,
    I try to avoid linking in libraries anyways if possible, I had to port some existing ones and change those.

    How much work is it? And can everything be ported? You could do a lot of good on the boinc projects.

    Depends, I had problems with libforms, they dropped right and middle mouse, contacted the developer
    but used an old version and recompiled that on raspi, renamed it libzorms.... (to avoid conflict with any newer version) works..
    The gcc compiler is very very good, so its not that hard, it is more getting used to things.
    Much has been ported to ARM / raspi for Debian, often all it needs is 'apt-get install library-name'


    So its work, but everything I normally use now also runs on raspis.
    My PC is off these days, 5 raspberries in the room, 3 on 24/7, 1 on all day as router, and 1 for experiments.
    Only time PC is on is for adjusting satellite dish and HAM radio QO100 stuff >> that software has already been recompiled on the raspi, needs a new USB DVB-S2 tuner compatible with the Linux kernel.
    Low priority.
    Surviving WW3 comes first ?
    Anyways one big EMP and all those cellphones and puters and electric power are no more.
    Then you need an abacus :-)

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
    Optical media last very very long in the dark, I also used some M_Discs
    that box hold a thousand CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, Blu-ray discs and is full. Now I backup daily to 3 TB USB drives... two, in case I drop one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Sun Apr 17 17:20:36 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:56:59 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr309ibmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:51:47 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:46:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr0r8vvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>>>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have
    trouble
    writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    from the eighties, CP/M clone:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the
    program require AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I have never written anything in Python, and have no intention to learn it.
    C is <in my view> much simpler.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 18:42:23 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:17:43 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:55:45 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr3y7nhmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:41:10 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:31:56 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krxbi2lmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:01:30 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:56:39 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1krswpr1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Indeed, my phone and (not that I have one) Raspberry Pis, and also GPUs are very power efficient but they lack the number
    of
    programs they can run.

    Not so sure, maybe a few MS windows program
    but the open source Unix / Linux world has likely an often better version, free at that, and a lot more choice.
    https://howchoo.com/pi/run-windows-raspberry-pi
    I never feel limited on Linux.
    And what does not exist I can write.

    Most people have trouble using Windows, nevermind Linux.

    Anyway, I run a lot of science research programs (see Boinc) and I think out of about 40 projects, only 5 run on ARM. They
    just
    don't see the point in recoding everything.

    Well, I have written loads of programs for x86 in C for Unix / Linux
    Ported all I use to Raspberries..
    The breaking point is sometimes the libraries,
    I try to avoid linking in libraries anyways if possible, I had to port some existing ones and change those.

    How much work is it? And can everything be ported? You could do a lot of good on the boinc projects.

    Depends, I had problems with libforms, they dropped right and middle mouse, contacted the developer
    but used an old version and recompiled that on raspi, renamed it libzorms.... (to avoid conflict with any newer version) works..
    The gcc compiler is very very good, so its not that hard, it is more getting used to things.
    Much has been ported to ARM / raspi for Debian, often all it needs is 'apt-get install library-name'


    So its work, but everything I normally use now also runs on raspis.
    My PC is off these days, 5 raspberries in the room, 3 on 24/7, 1 on all day as router, and 1 for experiments.
    Only time PC is on is for adjusting satellite dish and HAM radio QO100 stuff
    that software has already been recompiled on the raspi, needs a new USB DVB-S2 tuner compatible with the Linux kernel.
    Low priority.
    Surviving WW3 comes first ?
    Anyways one big EMP and all those cellphones and puters and electric power are no more.
    Then you need an abacus :-)

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
    Optical media last very very long in the dark, I also used some M_Discs
    that box hold a thousand CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, Blu-ray discs and is full.
    Now I backup daily to 3 TB USB drives... two, in case I drop one.

    Just how much data have you got?! That is a lot of disks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 12:55:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give
    them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter that
    used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration.
    Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user interface
    was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently different
    that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K was
    a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really
    good after 3 decades...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 20:00:29 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:55:20 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home>
    wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give
    them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter that
    used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration.
    Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user interface
    was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently different
    that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K was
    a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really
    good after 3 decades...

    I have a mouse driver that's 130MB. WTF? That's over 3 times the size of the hard disk on a PC I had in 1991. What does the mouse driver do? Watch for left and right and a few button presses? In 1991 I think it was 30KB. 4000 times less efficient
    programming, we've really come far.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Sun Apr 17 19:11:05 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:42:23 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr54xtqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
    Optical media last very very long in the dark, I also used some M_Discs
    that box hold a thousand CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, Blu-ray discs and is full.
    Now I backup daily to 3 TB USB drives... two, in case I drop one.

    Just how much data have you got?! That is a lot of disks.

    I dunno, many are CD-R from many many years ago, with all sort of things, even movies.
    For more recent data this is sda2 from a Raspberry Pi4 with 4 GB RAM:
    /dev/sda2 3844510712 3239539624 409610424 89% /mnt/sda2

    so 89 % of a 4 TB Toshiba USB harddisk
    That includes images of SDcard, some distros, what not.
    Logs.. I have radiation logs that go back years for example.
    Backups of the website... smartphone, legal stuff, financial stuff, all code I wrote,
    security videos, all emails of the last 20 years or so, pictures I took and videos I made,
    many Usenet postings I saved back over the last 20 years, easy with the newsreader I wrote
    it has a search function, etc etc.., datasheets...
    But even Linux 'locate' will find things in seconds.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 20:01:51 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:20:36 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:56:59 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr309ibmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:51:47 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:46:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr0r8vvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>>>>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have
    trouble
    writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    from the eighties, CP/M clone:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the
    program require AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I have never written anything in Python, and have no intention to learn it.
    C is <in my view> much simpler.

    I think it was Python somebody recently said in a newsgroup that a compiled "hello world" program was 60KB. Beyond a joke.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 20:24:58 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:11:05 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:42:23 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr54xtqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
    Optical media last very very long in the dark, I also used some M_Discs
    that box hold a thousand CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, Blu-ray discs and is full.
    Now I backup daily to 3 TB USB drives... two, in case I drop one.

    Just how much data have you got?! That is a lot of disks.

    I dunno, many are CD-R from many many years ago, with all sort of things, even movies.
    For more recent data this is sda2 from a Raspberry Pi4 with 4 GB RAM:
    /dev/sda2 3844510712 3239539624 409610424 89% /mnt/sda2

    so 89 % of a 4 TB Toshiba USB harddisk
    That includes images of SDcard, some distros, what not.
    Logs.. I have radiation logs that go back years for example.
    Backups of the website... smartphone, legal stuff, financial stuff, all code I wrote,
    security videos, all emails of the last 20 years or so, pictures I took and videos I made,
    many Usenet postings I saved back over the last 20 years, easy with the newsreader I wrote
    it has a search function, etc etc.., datasheets...
    But even Linux 'locate' will find things in seconds.

    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously, but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each which only records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate my neighbour's cat, which she found
    confusing. But it auto deletes after a month unless I save it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 13:42:27 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 10:53 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:25:15 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:09:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/04/2022 01:38, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote: >>>>>>>
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked >>>>>>>>>>> any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all >>>>>>>>>>> they
    can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half >>>>>>>>>> and
    a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1 >>>>>>>
    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with
    TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what
    area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create
    optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to
    program in
    assembler even if it does take more lines.

    I've not found any ARM will beat a late model Intel yet, but there
    is no
    reason why ultimately it shouldn't. After all most CISC processors are >>>> RISC processors with microcode.

    But the point here is that Apple didn't 'design' the chip any more than >>>> it designed the 6502, 6800, power PC or Intel chips.

    So the high speed is just magic then?

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/intel-hires-apple-engineer-who-helped-develop-m1-mac-chips


    There's a guy who must have NDA's up the wazoo...

    So if he makes an Intel chip based on ideas in Apple, how do they prove
    it? It's like saying that song sounds a bit like that one.

    The whole IP thing is a mess. Stephen Kinsella makes a good argument
    against patents and copyrights. That Oracle/Google debacle is a good
    example. Java wasn't even Oracle's brainchild; they bought it when they acquired Sun.

    Earlier it had been Sun versus Microsoft when MS came out with Visual
    J++. The agreement would have frozen J++ so MS discontinued it. There
    was a brief fling with J# but MS used what it had learned to develop C#,
    which is superior to Java and C++ imnsho. In a way Sun did the world a
    favor.

    Music is a good analogy. I was messing around with a guitar in a shop,
    playing in C, but no specific song. Another customer asked what the tune
    was and I said I didn't know.

    Some employment contracts disallow working in the same industry for N
    years after leaving. That makes more sense. More by chance rather than
    planning I've never worked in the same areas but if I did I don't know
    how I would filter what I knew.

    As for patents, one of my early mentors was an inventor who had launched several products. He never patented anything and felt the patent process disclosed too much. Bring the product to market, grab the money, and
    move on to another. If it is a success it will be copied anyway but
    there is no reason to give competitors a heads up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 13:50:36 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 10:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm.

    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    Until the company upgraded my desktop I was using the laptop for some
    projects. It beat the hell out of an elderly Core i5 with a hard drive.

    I'm not a real fan of laptops but they have their place. I'm using a
    company supplied laptop for remote work. Admittedly the HDMI is plugged
    into my desktop monitor though a switch and I use a bluetooth mouse and keyboard but it's good enough to VPN in to a real machine.

    It's also difficult to travel with a desktop...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 20:56:40 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:50:36 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm.

    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 but >>> I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    Until the company upgraded my desktop I was using the laptop for some projects. It beat the hell out of an elderly Core i5 with a hard drive.

    I'm not a real fan of laptops but they have their place. I'm using a
    company supplied laptop for remote work. Admittedly the HDMI is plugged
    into my desktop monitor though a switch and I use a bluetooth mouse and keyboard but it's good enough to VPN in to a real machine.

    It's also difficult to travel with a desktop...

    I wonder what would happen if you tried to set up a desktop, keyboard, mouse, monitor on a table on a train?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 20:55:50 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:42:27 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:53 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:25:15 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 11:09:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/04/2022 01:38, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher" >>>>>>>>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked >>>>>>>>>>>> any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all >>>>>>>>>>>> they
    can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half >>>>>>>>>>> and
    a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1 >>>>>>>>
    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with >>>>>> TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking >>>>>> Intel ass.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what >>>>>> area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create
    optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    RISC designed like Atmel's AVR products are a lot more fun to
    program in
    assembler even if it does take more lines.

    I've not found any ARM will beat a late model Intel yet, but there
    is no
    reason why ultimately it shouldn't. After all most CISC processors are >>>>> RISC processors with microcode.

    But the point here is that Apple didn't 'design' the chip any more than >>>>> it designed the 6502, 6800, power PC or Intel chips.

    So the high speed is just magic then?

    https://www.pcmag.com/news/intel-hires-apple-engineer-who-helped-develop-m1-mac-chips


    There's a guy who must have NDA's up the wazoo...

    So if he makes an Intel chip based on ideas in Apple, how do they prove
    it? It's like saying that song sounds a bit like that one.

    The whole IP thing is a mess. Stephen Kinsella makes a good argument
    against patents and copyrights. That Oracle/Google debacle is a good
    example. Java wasn't even Oracle's brainchild; they bought it when they acquired Sun.

    Earlier it had been Sun versus Microsoft when MS came out with Visual
    J++. The agreement would have frozen J++ so MS discontinued it. There
    was a brief fling with J# but MS used what it had learned to develop C#, which is superior to Java and C++ imnsho. In a way Sun did the world a favor.

    Music is a good analogy. I was messing around with a guitar in a shop, playing in C, but no specific song. Another customer asked what the tune
    was and I said I didn't know.

    Some employment contracts disallow working in the same industry for N
    years after leaving. That makes more sense. More by chance rather than planning I've never worked in the same areas but if I did I don't know
    how I would filter what I knew.

    As for patents, one of my early mentors was an inventor who had launched several products. He never patented anything and felt the patent process disclosed too much. Bring the product to market, grab the money, and
    move on to another. If it is a success it will be copied anyway but
    there is no reason to give competitors a heads up.

    Agreed apart from "disallow working in the same industry for N years after leaving". Most people probably work in the same industry for most of their life. So such a job means if you ever choose to leave, you can't get another job. I would therefore
    never take a job with that in the contract.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 14:01:49 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 10:41 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Only time PC is on is for adjusting satellite dish and HAM radio QO100 stuff that software has already been recompiled on the raspi, needs a new USB DVB-S2 tuner compatible with the Linux kernel.

    Have you looked at DragonOS? I'm running an old SuSE distro and have
    thought about trying it. I've been messing around with RTL-SDR on
    Windows and it sounds like one stop shopping for Linux.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 14:08:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so? I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Vir Campestris@21:1/5 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Apr 17 21:52:05 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 16/04/2022 11:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.

    The only radical breakthrough in the last 20 years has been the solid
    state disk.

    Curiously not invented by Clive Sinclair or James Dyson, but by real engineers working in large companies.

    Coming in to this rather late - that turns out not to be the case.

    The megahertz hasn't gone up much, but the instructions per clock has.

    As an example of the reasons for this - do you know about speculative execution?

    Once upon a time a processor got to a branch, waited to find out which
    way to go, then carried on with the correct instructions.

    Then they started to decode the instructions on the non-branch path
    early, because they might need them.

    Then they added branch predictors, which take an increasingly good guess
    as to which way the branch would go, and started on those.

    The latest ones start running the instructions on _both_ paths, and
    throw away the wrong ones.

    All done without increasing the megahertz.

    There are lots of other things going on too.

    Andy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 14:18:43 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 10:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of
    problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require
    AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I've run into that a couple of times. In one case out of about 30
    programming and QA machines I found two that could run the program. I
    just happened to develop it on one of the two and was fat, dumb, and
    happy until I tried to distribute it.

    Python 3.x I assume? ESRI has been using 2.7 for some GIS scripting but
    are moving to 3.x. I can hardly wait to rewrite my scripts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Apr 17 14:31:03 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 11:20 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:56:59 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr309ibmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:51:47 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:46:46 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr0r8vvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized >>>>>> code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have
    trouble
    writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    from the eighties, CP/M clone:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the
    program require AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I have never written anything in Python, and have no intention to learn it.
    C is <in my view> much simpler.


    Agreed, but I do a lot of GIS work and ESRI went to Python for a
    scripting language when VBA died. For quick and dirty jobs I can write
    20 lines of Python or 200 lines of C++. (Their API uses COM. I have
    used C with COM but life is too short...)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 21:56:59 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:31:03 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 11:20 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:56:59 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr309ibmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:51:47 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:46:46 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr0r8vvmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what area >>>>>>> you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code >>>>>> for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give them a computer from the 80s and they'd have
    trouble
    writing a calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    from the eighties, CP/M clone:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/index.html

    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the
    program require AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I have never written anything in Python, and have no intention to learn it. >> C is <in my view> much simpler.


    Agreed, but I do a lot of GIS work and ESRI went to Python for a
    scripting language when VBA died. For quick and dirty jobs I can write
    20 lines of Python or 200 lines of C++. (Their API uses COM. I have
    used C with COM but life is too short...)

    Are you saying your 20 lines of Python is the same as 200 lines of C++? If so I wouldn't call C++ simpler.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 21:55:49 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:18:43 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of
    problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require
    AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I've run into that a couple of times. In one case out of about 30
    programming and QA machines I found two that could run the program. I
    just happened to develop it on one of the two and was fat, dumb, and
    happy until I tried to distribute it.

    Python 3.x I assume? ESRI has been using 2.7 for some GIS scripting but
    are moving to 3.x. I can hardly wait to rewrite my scripts.

    Not sure, they run on a Debian virtual machine using Oracle Virtualbox. This is the last log output I can find if it means anything to you:

    <core_client_version>7.19.0</core_client_version>
    <![CDATA[
    <stderr_txt>
    2022-04-17 09:28:54 (18912): Detected: vboxwrapper 26202
    2022-04-17 09:28:54 (18912): Detected: BOINC client v7.19.0
    2022-04-17 09:28:55 (18912): Detected: VirtualBox VboxManage Interface (Version: 5.2.44)
    2022-04-17 09:28:55 (18912): Feature: Checkpoint interval offset (531 seconds) 2022-04-17 09:28:55 (18912): Detected: Minimum checkpoint interval (600.000000 seconds)
    2022-04-17 09:28:56 (18912): Create VM. (boinc_b700ee8ebff8eb66, slot#8) 2022-04-17 09:28:57 (18912): Setting Memory Size for VM. (6144MB)
    2022-04-17 09:28:57 (18912): Setting CPU Count for VM. (1)
    2022-04-17 09:28:57 (18912): Setting Chipset Options for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:28:57 (18912): Setting Boot Options for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:28:58 (18912): Setting Network Configuration for NAT.
    2022-04-17 09:28:58 (18912): Disabling VM Network Access.
    2022-04-17 09:28:58 (18912): Disabling USB Support for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:28:58 (18912): Disabling COM Port Support for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:28:59 (18912): Disabling LPT Port Support for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:28:59 (18912): Disabling Audio Support for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:28:59 (18912): Disabling Clipboard Support for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:29:00 (18912): Disabling Drag and Drop Support for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:29:00 (18912): Adding storage controller(s) to VM.
    2022-04-17 09:29:00 (18912): Adding virtual disk drive to VM. (vm_image.vdi) 2022-04-17 09:29:00 (18912): Adding VirtualBox Guest Additions to VM. 2022-04-17 09:29:01 (18912): Adding network bandwidth throttle group to VM. (Defaulting to 1024GB)
    2022-04-17 09:29:01 (18912): Enabling shared directory for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:29:01 (18912): Starting VM using VBoxManage interface. (boinc_b700ee8ebff8eb66, slot#8)
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Successfully started VM. (PID = '10664') 2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Reporting VM Process ID to BOINC.
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Guest Log: BIOS: VirtualBox 5.2.44
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Guest Log: CPUID EDX: 0x078bfbff
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Guest Log: BIOS: ata0-0: PCHS=16383/16/63 LCHS=1024/255/63
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'poweredoff', new = 'running')
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Preference change detected
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Setting CPU throttle for VM. (100%)
    2022-04-17 09:29:07 (18912): Setting checkpoint interval to 600 seconds. (Higher value of (Preference: 600 seconds) or (Vbox_job.xml: 600 seconds))
    2022-04-17 09:29:09 (18912): Guest Log: BIOS: Boot : bseqnr=1, bootseq=0032 2022-04-17 09:29:09 (18912): Guest Log: BIOS: Booting from Hard Disk... 2022-04-17 09:29:13 (18912): Guest Log: vgdrvHeartbeatInit: Setting up heartbeat to trigger every 2000 milliseconds
    2022-04-17 09:29:13 (18912): Guest Log: vboxguest: misc device minor 58, IRQ 20, I/O port d020, MMIO at 00000000f0400000 (size 0x400000)
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: VBoxService 5.2.42 r137960 (verbosity: 0) linux.amd64 (May 13 2020 21:45:13) release log
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000224 main Log opened 2022-04-17T09:29:15.965960000Z
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000365 main OS Product: Linux
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000400 main OS Release: 4.19.0-14-amd64
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000467 main OS Version: #1 SMP Debian 4.19.171-2 (2021-01-30)
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000487 main Executable: /opt/VBoxGuestAdditions-5.2.42/sbin/VBoxService
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000487 main Process ID: 538
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.000488 main Package type: LINUX_64BITS_GENERIC
    2022-04-17 09:29:17 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:00.001543 main 5.2.42 r137960 started. Verbose level = 0
    2022-04-17 09:29:27 (18912): Guest Log: 00:00:10.014528 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical guest time change: -3 589 008 203 000ns (GuestNow=1 650 184 166 971 021 000 ns GuestLast=1 650 187 755 979 224 000 ns fSetTimeLastLoop=true )
    2022-04-17 09:48:00 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:48:07 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 09:58:10 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 09:58:17 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 09:58:17 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 10:08:21 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 10:08:28 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 10:08:28 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 10:18:32 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 10:18:38 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 10:18:39 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 10:28:42 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 10:28:49 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 10:28:49 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 10:38:53 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 10:39:00 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 10:39:00 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 10:46:50 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'running', new = 'paused')
    2022-04-17 13:15:24 (18912): Preference change detected
    2022-04-17 13:15:24 (18912): Setting CPU throttle for VM. (100%)
    2022-04-17 13:15:25 (18912): Setting checkpoint interval to 600 seconds. (Higher value of (Preference: 600 seconds) or (Vbox_job.xml: 600 seconds))
    2022-04-17 13:15:25 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'paused', new = 'running')
    2022-04-17 13:15:28 (18912): Guest Log: 01:17:00.201785 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical host time change: 8 924 587 000 000ns (HostNow=1 650 197 727 910 000 000 ns HostLast=1 650 188 803 323 000 000 ns)
    2022-04-17 13:15:38 (18912): Guest Log: 01:17:10.202876 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical guest time change: 8 960 752 821 000ns (GuestNow=1 650 197 737 911 127 000 ns GuestLast=1 650 188 777 158 306 000 ns fSetTimeLastLoop=true )
    2022-04-17 13:17:29 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 13:17:36 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 13:17:36 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 13:20:34 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'running', new = 'paused')
    2022-04-17 14:39:02 (18912): Guest Log: 01:22:00.215576 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical host time change: 4 717 136 000 000ns (HostNow=1 650 202 741 159 000 000 ns HostLast=1 650 198 024 023 000 000 ns)
    2022-04-17 14:39:02 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'paused', new = 'running')
    2022-04-17 14:39:12 (18912): Guest Log: 01:22:10.215960 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical guest time change: 4 723 235 627 000ns (GuestNow=1 650 202 751 159 416 000 ns GuestLast=1 650 198 027 923 789 000 ns fSetTimeLastLoop=true )
    2022-04-17 14:45:59 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 14:46:06 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 14:46:06 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 14:49:14 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'running', new = 'paused')
    2022-04-17 16:08:06 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'paused', new = 'running')
    2022-04-17 16:08:09 (18912): Guest Log: 01:32:10.240977 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical host time change: 4 741 447 000 000ns (HostNow=1 650 208 088 717 000 000 ns HostLast=1 650 203 347 270 000 000 ns)
    2022-04-17 16:08:19 (18912): Guest Log: 01:32:20.241766 timesync vgsvcTimeSyncWorker: Radical guest time change: 4 747 533 387 000ns (GuestNow=1 650 208 098 717 800 000 ns GuestLast=1 650 203 351 184 413 000 ns fSetTimeLastLoop=true )
    2022-04-17 16:14:53 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 16:15:00 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 16:15:00 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 16:15:10 (18912): Status Report: Elapsed Time: '6000.292812' 2022-04-17 16:15:10 (18912): Status Report: CPU Time: '5995.921875'
    2022-04-17 16:25:04 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 16:25:12 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 16:25:13 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 16:35:16 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 16:35:23 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 16:35:23 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 16:45:27 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 16:45:34 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 16:45:34 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 16:55:38 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 16:55:45 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 16:55:46 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 17:05:49 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 17:05:55 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 17:05:56 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 17:15:59 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 17:16:07 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 17:16:08 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 17:26:12 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 17:26:21 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 17:26:21 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 17:36:25 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 17:36:32 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 17:36:32 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 17:46:35 (18912): Creating new snapshot for VM.
    2022-04-17 17:46:43 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 17:46:44 (18912): Checkpoint completed.
    2022-04-17 17:54:34 (18912): Guest Log: 03:17:28.089824 control Guest control service stopped
    2022-04-17 17:54:34 (18912): Guest Log: 03:17:28.089898 control Guest control worker returned with rc=VINF_SUCCESS
    2022-04-17 17:54:34 (18912): Guest Log: 03:17:28.090015 main Session 0 is about to close ...
    2022-04-17 17:54:34 (18912): Guest Log: 03:17:28.090037 main Stopping all guest processes ...
    2022-04-17 17:54:34 (18912): Guest Log: 03:17:28.090052 main Closing all guest files ...
    2022-04-17 17:54:34 (18912): Guest Log: 03:17:28.251843 main Ended. 2022-04-17 17:54:35 (18912): VM is no longer is a running state. It is in 'poweredoff'.
    2022-04-17 17:54:35 (18912): VM state change detected. (old = 'running', new = 'poweredoff')
    2022-04-17 17:54:35 (18912): Powering off VM.
    2022-04-17 17:54:35 (18912): Deregistering VM. (boinc_b700ee8ebff8eb66, slot#8) 2022-04-17 17:54:35 (18912): Deleting stale snapshot.
    2022-04-17 17:54:35 (18912): Removing network bandwidth throttle group from VM. 2022-04-17 17:54:36 (18912): Removing VM from VirtualBox.
    2022-04-17 17:54:41 (18912): Virtual machine exited.
    17:54:46 (18912): called boinc_finish(0)

    </stderr_txt>


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 15:38:18 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 01:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Agreed apart from "disallow working in the same industry for N years
    after leaving". Most people probably work in the same industry for most
    of their life. So such a job means if you ever choose to leave, you
    can't get another job. I would therefore never take a job with that in
    the contract.

    Depends on what you mean by industry. For example I've been in the
    software 'industry' but went from programming biomedical equipment to
    aircraft fuel measurement and management to automated testing of copier
    power supplies, to semiconductor sputtering systems to....

    My software skills remained the same but the applications had little to
    do with each other. I've been in my present job for over 20 years but I
    got old and slow and didn't need a new challenge every three or four
    years. What I have is plenty challenging as the technology changes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 15:29:11 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 01:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously,
    but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each which only
    records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate
    my neighbour's cat, which she found confusing. But it auto deletes
    after a month unless I save it.

    So they're finding out about body cams. No auto delete after a month
    either. It can be years before the case comes to trial and they have to
    produce the camera video.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 17 14:39:32 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally
    be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large
    cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually
    the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 15:24:59 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 01:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:55:20 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home>
    wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what
    area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create
    optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give >>> them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter that
    used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration.
    Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user interface
    was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently different
    that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K was
    a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really
    good after 3 decades...

    I have a mouse driver that's 130MB. WTF? That's over 3 times the size
    of the hard disk on a PC I had in 1991. What does the mouse driver do?
    Watch for left and right and a few button presses? In 1991 I think it
    was 30KB. 4000 times less efficient programming, we've really come far.

    I looked at Java back in the late '90s. It wasn't too bad but as it grew performance went into the toilet. The answer was 'you need a newer,
    faster machine.'

    Over twenty years of hardware improvements and Java apps still suck.

    I bought an Osborne 1 in '81. It was a CP/M machine and came with 2
    single side, single density 5 1/4" floppy drives for a massive 90 KB
    each. I later sent it back for the DD upgrade. Some how 90KB was enough
    to hold Wordstar, SuperCalc, or the BDS C compiler executables which
    happily ran in 64KB of RAM.

    Somehow Turbo Pascal managed to compile so fast that at first I thought
    it was broken compared to BDS.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 15:39:41 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 01:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:50:36 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm.

    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3
    but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    Until the company upgraded my desktop I was using the laptop for some
    projects. It beat the hell out of an elderly Core i5 with a hard drive.

    I'm not a real fan of laptops but they have their place. I'm using a
    company supplied laptop for remote work. Admittedly the HDMI is plugged
    into my desktop monitor though a switch and I use a bluetooth mouse and
    keyboard but it's good enough to VPN in to a real machine.

    It's also difficult to travel with a desktop...

    I wonder what would happen if you tried to set up a desktop, keyboard,
    mouse, monitor on a table on a train?

    First you would have to find a train...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Sun Apr 17 22:43:45 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:39:32 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally
    be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually
    the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Incompatibilities is a very big reason why I would never touch an Apple with a bargepole. Even their stupidity of dropping serial ports when adding USB instead of having a crossover time was absurd.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 22:47:08 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:38:18 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Agreed apart from "disallow working in the same industry for N years
    after leaving". Most people probably work in the same industry for most
    of their life. So such a job means if you ever choose to leave, you
    can't get another job. I would therefore never take a job with that in
    the contract.

    Depends on what you mean by industry. For example I've been in the
    software 'industry' but went from programming biomedical equipment to aircraft fuel measurement and management to automated testing of copier
    power supplies, to semiconductor sputtering systems to....

    My software skills remained the same but the applications had little to
    do with each other. I've been in my present job for over 20 years but I
    got old and slow and didn't need a new challenge every three or four
    years. What I have is plenty challenging as the technology changes.

    You could always take a "different" job in another company but end up giving them some secrets to a neighbouring department!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 22:46:12 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:29:11 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously,
    but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each which only
    records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate
    my neighbour's cat, which she found confusing. But it auto deletes
    after a month unless I save it.

    So they're finding out about body cams. No auto delete after a month
    either. It can be years before the case comes to trial and they have to produce the camera video.

    You can turn them off.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 22:45:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:24:59 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:55:20 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> >>>> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what >>>>>> area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where RISC >>>>>> has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create
    optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. Give >>>> them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter that >>> used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration.
    Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user interface
    was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently different
    that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K was
    a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really
    good after 3 decades...

    I have a mouse driver that's 130MB. WTF? That's over 3 times the size
    of the hard disk on a PC I had in 1991. What does the mouse driver do?
    Watch for left and right and a few button presses? In 1991 I think it
    was 30KB. 4000 times less efficient programming, we've really come far.

    I looked at Java back in the late '90s. It wasn't too bad but as it grew performance went into the toilet. The answer was 'you need a newer,
    faster machine.'

    Over twenty years of hardware improvements and Java apps still suck.

    I bought an Osborne 1 in '81. It was a CP/M machine and came with 2
    single side, single density 5 1/4" floppy drives for a massive 90 KB
    each. I later sent it back for the DD upgrade. Some how 90KB was enough
    to hold Wordstar, SuperCalc, or the BDS C compiler executables which
    happily ran in 64KB of RAM.

    Somehow Turbo Pascal managed to compile so fast that at first I thought
    it was broken compared to BDS.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Sun Apr 17 22:48:17 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:39:41 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:50:36 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm. >>>>>>
    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 >>>>> but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    Until the company upgraded my desktop I was using the laptop for some
    projects. It beat the hell out of an elderly Core i5 with a hard drive.

    I'm not a real fan of laptops but they have their place. I'm using a
    company supplied laptop for remote work. Admittedly the HDMI is plugged
    into my desktop monitor though a switch and I use a bluetooth mouse and
    keyboard but it's good enough to VPN in to a real machine.

    It's also difficult to travel with a desktop...

    I wonder what would happen if you tried to set up a desktop, keyboard,
    mouse, monitor on a table on a train?

    First you would have to find a train...

    You don't have trains? They're annoying things with shitty brakes that would cause a car to be taken off the road. They expect everything else to get out of their way. And they never go where you want to when you want to. About time we got rid of
    those useless things which actually use more fuel per person than a car.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Sun Apr 17 18:13:28 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:13:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:11:56 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:03:59 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote: >>>
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 23:20:48 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
    <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote: >>>>>>
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1 >>>>>>
    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than
    intels X86

    The long-term problem with Intel is that they cannot let go of the x86 >>>> architecture, and over time this has become severely limiting.

    Apple had the same problem, but eventually did transition from
    Motorola CPUs to Intel, gaining the ability to run Windows on Apple
    desktop and laptop computers. But the Intel architecture had become
    too hide-bound, and Apple was more or less forced to escape.

    But I wonder how well and how long Apple's new M1 architecture will be >>>> able to support running Windows OS and software, which is exactly what >>>> I'm using as I type these words. (iMac (with lots of memory),
    Parallels, Win10, Forte Agent.)

    I may stay on Intel for that reason, for desktops, but iPhones and
    iPads will go M1, because I have no reason to retain Intel there. But >>>> I will wait for the few apps I use to have become mature on M1 first.

    So a speed change but no compatibility? Bit of a bugger to change every program's coding.

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?

    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    But below you say you can emulate.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions, one of which I was
    in. One long wall of our meeting room ad a very large mirror, one
    that looked a bit odd. It was half-silvered, and there were observers
    watching the from behind that "mirror".

    The questions wandered around, then eventually converged. We all knew
    that Apple was moving to Intel, as this had bee reported extensively
    in the trade press. The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Making an emulation _that_ good is a very big deal, and there has been
    no talk from Apple of doing any such thing.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 18:15:57 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the >rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally
    be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large >cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually
    the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Yes, but never mind the details, Apple did get it to work very well,
    and maintained it for about ten years, then ceased to support it. By
    then, most of those critical apps wee no longer critical, or had been
    killed off by something else.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Apr 17 23:36:26 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software
    that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the
    rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally
    be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large
    cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually
    the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Yes, but never mind the details, Apple did get it to work very well,
    and maintained it for about ten years, then ceased to support it. By
    then, most of those critical apps wee no longer critical, or had been
    killed off by something else.

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Mon Apr 18 01:25:40 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:20:29 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Not an uncommon view, but inaccurate. Excel, for example, started life
    as macintosh-only code; the Windows version was an afterthought, ported
    over.

    Gotta start somewhere. Things tend to improve.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 17:20:29 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Not an uncommon view, but inaccurate. Excel, for example, started life
    as macintosh-only code; the Windows version was an afterthought, ported
    over.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 18:49:12 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 02:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:18:43 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of
    problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require
    AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I've run into that a couple of times. In one case out of about 30
    programming and QA machines I found two that could run the program. I
    just happened to develop it on one of the two and was fat, dumb, and
    happy until I tried to distribute it.

    Python 3.x I assume? ESRI has been using 2.7 for some GIS scripting but
    are moving to 3.x. I can hardly wait to rewrite my scripts.

    Not sure, they run on a Debian virtual machine using Oracle Virtualbox.
    This is the last log output I can find if it means anything to you:


    Not a clue. Have I mentioned I hate VMs? Sometimes they're good for a
    laugh. Some sites with high availability systems respond to Linux like a vampire to garlic. What they don't know is under all those Server 20xx
    VMs, Redhat and kvm is holding the whole mess together.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Vir Campestris on Sun Apr 17 18:45:09 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 02:52 PM, Vir Campestris wrote:
    On 16/04/2022 11:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any
    faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can
    do is add more cores.

    The only radical breakthrough in the last 20 years has been the solid
    state disk.

    Curiously not invented by Clive Sinclair or James Dyson, but by real
    engineers working in large companies.

    Coming in to this rather late - that turns out not to be the case.

    The megahertz hasn't gone up much, but the instructions per clock has.

    As an example of the reasons for this - do you know about speculative execution?

    Once upon a time a processor got to a branch, waited to find out which
    way to go, then carried on with the correct instructions.

    Then they started to decode the instructions on the non-branch path
    early, because they might need them.

    Then they added branch predictors, which take an increasingly good guess
    as to which way the branch would go, and started on those.

    The latest ones start running the instructions on _both_ paths, and
    throw away the wrong ones.

    All done without increasing the megahertz.

    There are lots of other things going on too.

    Andy

    Leading to the Meltdown, Zombieload and Spectre exploits... Some of
    those may have been other side-channel effects.

    Side note: The only project I have worked on that used Apple equipment
    used the original Mac toasters for some purposes. It was the only
    machine that met the TEMPEST requirements of the day. I doubt that was
    Apple's intention.

    That was c. 1985 and the Russkies were out in the bushes trying to steal technology. Fast forward to 2022 and the Russkies are much more
    sophisticated when the pwning government data.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 18:50:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 03:45 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:24:59 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:55:20 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal
    <scott@slp53.sl.home>
    wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what >>>>>>> area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where >>>>>>> RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create
    optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code >>>>>> for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding.
    Give
    them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter
    that
    used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration.
    Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user interface >>>> was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently different >>>> that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K was >>>> a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really
    good after 3 decades...

    I have a mouse driver that's 130MB. WTF? That's over 3 times the size
    of the hard disk on a PC I had in 1991. What does the mouse driver do?
    Watch for left and right and a few button presses? In 1991 I think it
    was 30KB. 4000 times less efficient programming, we've really come far.

    I looked at Java back in the late '90s. It wasn't too bad but as it grew
    performance went into the toilet. The answer was 'you need a newer,
    faster machine.'

    Over twenty years of hardware improvements and Java apps still suck.

    I bought an Osborne 1 in '81. It was a CP/M machine and came with 2
    single side, single density 5 1/4" floppy drives for a massive 90 KB
    each. I later sent it back for the DD upgrade. Some how 90KB was enough
    to hold Wordstar, SuperCalc, or the BDS C compiler executables which
    happily ran in 64KB of RAM.

    Somehow Turbo Pascal managed to compile so fast that at first I thought
    it was broken compared to BDS.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

    Excellent movie but relevant how?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 18:54:12 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 03:46 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:29:11 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously, >>> but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each which only
    records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate
    my neighbour's cat, which she found confusing. But it auto deletes
    after a month unless I save it.

    So they're finding out about body cams. No auto delete after a month
    either. It can be years before the case comes to trial and they have to
    produce the camera video.

    You can turn them off.

    That feature may go away; they'll have to get more creative. Currently
    some bodycam systems vendors turn the camera on when the officer gets
    within a specified distance from the incident. That, of course, also
    implies the body camera is a radio collar for the cop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 01:51:08 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:49:12 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 02:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:18:43 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of
    problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require
    AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I've run into that a couple of times. In one case out of about 30
    programming and QA machines I found two that could run the program. I
    just happened to develop it on one of the two and was fat, dumb, and
    happy until I tried to distribute it.

    Python 3.x I assume? ESRI has been using 2.7 for some GIS scripting but
    are moving to 3.x. I can hardly wait to rewrite my scripts.

    Not sure, they run on a Debian virtual machine using Oracle Virtualbox.
    This is the last log output I can find if it means anything to you:

    Not a clue. Have I mentioned I hate VMs? Sometimes they're good for a
    laugh. Some sites with high availability systems respond to Linux like a vampire to garlic. What they don't know is under all those Server 20xx
    VMs, Redhat and kvm is holding the whole mess together.

    I use them to be able to run Linux shit on my grown up Windows systems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 19:03:13 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 03:47 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:38:18 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Agreed apart from "disallow working in the same industry for N years
    after leaving". Most people probably work in the same industry for most >>> of their life. So such a job means if you ever choose to leave, you
    can't get another job. I would therefore never take a job with that in
    the contract.

    Depends on what you mean by industry. For example I've been in the
    software 'industry' but went from programming biomedical equipment to
    aircraft fuel measurement and management to automated testing of copier
    power supplies, to semiconductor sputtering systems to....

    My software skills remained the same but the applications had little to
    do with each other. I've been in my present job for over 20 years but I
    got old and slow and didn't need a new challenge every three or four
    years. What I have is plenty challenging as the technology changes.

    You could always take a "different" job in another company but end up
    giving them some secrets to a neighbouring department!

    There have been times when I've thought giving the source code to a
    competitor could set them back a few years.

    That's the purpose of trade shows. You skulk around seeing what everyone
    is doing and if it looks good you steal it. You need to be careful
    though. A few years back cloud based solutions were all the rage. Then
    AWS very visibly went tits up at inopportune moments. Twitter taking a
    dump is one thing but the emergency services people are a little less
    enthused by their system going down.

    When I first started working I was involved in the machine tool sector.
    The Asians were cute. Of course they all had cameras and they would
    subtly position one of their guys in the photos so they could go home
    and scale everything.

    Then the Japanese ate the US machine tool business and I moved on.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 19:24:53 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 03:48 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:39:41 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:50:36 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm. >>>>>>>
    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 >>>>>> but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    Until the company upgraded my desktop I was using the laptop for some
    projects. It beat the hell out of an elderly Core i5 with a hard drive. >>>>
    I'm not a real fan of laptops but they have their place. I'm using a
    company supplied laptop for remote work. Admittedly the HDMI is plugged >>>> into my desktop monitor though a switch and I use a bluetooth mouse and >>>> keyboard but it's good enough to VPN in to a real machine.

    It's also difficult to travel with a desktop...

    I wonder what would happen if you tried to set up a desktop, keyboard,
    mouse, monitor on a table on a train?

    First you would have to find a train...

    You don't have trains? They're annoying things with shitty brakes that
    would cause a car to be taken off the road. They expect everything else
    to get out of their way. And they never go where you want to when you
    want to. About time we got rid of those useless things which actually
    use more fuel per person than a car.

    Oh, we have trains but they're hauling coal to BC to ship to China.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmTnWxpcEQ

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg

    That was the Milwaukee Road terminal but they went under in the '70s.
    You can't see it but in the foreground the rails have been ripped up and
    turned into a bike/pedestrian trail. The other terminal is next to an
    active rail line but the coal trains don't stop.

    The closest passenger terminal is 133 miles north. You might want to
    think twice about setting up a computer on the Empire Builder:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Montana_train_derailment

    Except for the east coast routes favored by government drones like Biden
    US passenger rail is pretty dismal. Freight isn't much better:

    https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/shippers-complain-about-union-pacifics-plans-to-meter-traffic/

    https://www.freightwaves.com/news/fertilizer-maker-faults-union-pacifics-plan-to-reduce-congestion

    The second one is the money shot. A major fertilizer manufacturer can't
    ship its product to the Midwest where the farmers are getting ready to
    plant. If the farmers skimp on fertilizer the yields will be down. Just
    what we need with Ukraine off the table at least for this season.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Sun Apr 17 21:36:21 2022
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:36:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software >>>> that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the >>> rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally
    be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large >>> cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually
    the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Yes, but never mind the details, Apple did get it to work very well,
    and maintained it for about ten years, then ceased to support it. By
    then, most of those critical apps wee no longer critical, or had been
    killed off by something else.

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Well I've never been accused of being arty, but OK.

    But for really critical stuff, nobody uses Windows for sure. It's
    Linux all the way, often controlling bespoke FPGA hardware.

    Why no Windows? Well, the US Navy tried, in the SmartShip IT-21
    program, for which the USS Yorktown was the testbed.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)>

    Long story short, someone in the engine room entered a bad value of an
    input form for pump performance recording, and crashed the Windows
    computer system and all associated shipwide networks. The ship was
    dead in the water, without propulsion, steering, or weapons. What
    could go wrong?

    Fortunately they were far from land, and not in a battle, so they
    didn't get sunk or blunder into anything. They had to reboot the
    entire ship. This all took about three hours.

    That was the end of SmartShip - only the name survived, used only for administrative activities, isolated from all tactical networks.

    UNIX was the follow-on answer, but the various big platform vendors
    became too expensive and too inflexible, and over time everything
    migrated to Linux, mostly Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), which IBM subsequently acquired. Wonder if IBM has learned anything since DoD
    abandoned AIX.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 19:52:47 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 10:20:33 AM UTC+10, whit3rd wrote:
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Not an uncommon view, but inaccurate. Excel, for example, started life
    as macintosh-only code; the Windows version was an afterthought, ported over.

    Isn't Excel just a Windows steal of Viscalc? Lotus 1-2-3 came next, so Excel is more a Chinese copy of that that exploited the Widows graphical user interface - and of course the MacIntosh had the first commercial graphical user interface, copied from
    the Xerox PARC Alto machines (of which there were a couple of thousand, although it was never marketed).

    Visicalc was the killer application for the original Apple 2 computer. Dan Flystra made a lot of money out of it - I had an acquaintance at MIT at the time, who had run into Flystra who was also active in starting up Byte (which was how I got to be
    foundation subscriber to the magazine).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to charles on Sun Apr 17 20:14:42 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 7:35:55 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
    In article <op.1kl2t...@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com>
    wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.
    get a smaller one and a video camera.

    And a large TV display.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Apr 17 20:27:11 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 3:45:37 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.
    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that pumping
    a tank of gas.

    I can't charge my car as fast as the car charges, now. I can't get 200 kW service at my home.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Apr 17 20:41:15 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 5:28:27 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,

    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    You may be right. Could be three years.

    Do you have a BEV? The only people I've seen complain about charging times, are people who don't own them.

    Personally, I don't see a need for faster charging. My car is a bit shy on range from what I'd like to have, but then it is nearly four years old and they do much better today.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jock on Sun Apr 17 20:38:26 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:26:01 PM UTC-4, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.
    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.
    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    And the battery won't last anything like as long as a modern IC engine.
    My previous IC car lasted 45 years fine and only needed to be
    replaced because I was too stupid to fix the known windscreen leak
    with the car never garaged or car ported.

    Ok, in 2040, where will you buy gasoline, at the airport? The remaining ICE on the road won't justify keeping open a distribution network for autos. While gas will drop to probably $2 a gal in the next couple of years as BEVs start to make a dent in
    the number of gas cars on the roads, that will only last so long before prices start going back up as it becomes more costly to maintain the distribution network for the smaller amount of gas being produced. As the demand drops, eventually it will be
    very expensive, like $10 a gallon, to get any gas at all, and it will all be unleaded regular. So don't plan on running your high performance, high compression muscle car.

    The idea of running an ICE for another 45 years is pretty much a fantasy at this point.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jock on Sun Apr 17 20:42:47 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 6:19:29 PM UTC-4, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:28:20 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    You may be right. Could be three years.
    Don't buy that either. And even if it was true, much more of a nuisance having to do it most days instead of once a week or so.

    Do what most days? Plug it in when you get home. Set the timer to charge at night when electricity is cheapest and you never have to visit a smelly gas station again.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Apr 17 20:50:07 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 7:46:41 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 6:19 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 07:28:20 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 4:25 PM, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.

    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.

    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    You may be right. Could be three years.

    Don't buy that either. And even if it was true, much more of a nuisance having to do it most days instead of once a week or so.
    New models have a range comparable to a gas car, 350 to 400 miles.
    Yeah, takes 30 seconds to plug in twice a week. Still faster than
    stopping at a gas station.

    Rather than dwell on the negatives, educate yourself and you will find
    many have been overcome or will be soon.

    Many simply don't want to learn about BEVs. They want to believe what they want to believe. That's ok. Anyone will be able to keep their current car as long as they want. They just won't be able to drive it because no one will continue selling
    gasoline when only 1% of the country want it.


    If I had need for two cars, one would be an EV today. Even now, it is
    good for 90% of my needs.

    I haven't found a use case my BEV doesn't fit. It does a lot of things my old car didn't. Oh, wait, there's one thing I can't do in my BEV. I can't rev the engine in neutral or make a bunch of noise. Oh, I can't blow smoke out of the exhaust and I
    can't murder anyone by piping the exhaust into their bedroom window. Yeah, and I can't use the fuel to start a fire. Geez, there are so many gasoline fires in cars. Those things are DANGEROUS!

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Apr 17 20:55:44 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 8:17:18 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/15/2022 5:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2022 20:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?

    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways. New battery
    material, greater range, charging times not much different that
    pumping a tank of gas.
    wait 5 years ... if they haven't got much better - same battery
    material, same range, charging times not much different than now - then quietly forget the whole idea...

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Cars today no longer have to be hand cranked to start and the top models
    even have heaters in them. Amazing the progress they made.

    Yes, my car in Puerto Rico has seat heaters! Niiiiice.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to amdx on Sun Apr 17 20:59:00 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:00:21 AM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
    On 4/14/2022 8:22 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
    amdx wrote:
    ================
    Whitless IDIOT whit3rd wrote:
    Not so simple if you want accuracy. For one thing, the pointer ought to be counterweighted, not
    just lightweight. For another, the glass pane that protects the pointer must be grounded,
    or electrostatic charge will disrupt the reading. A d'Arsonval movement is hard to scale up
    and keep rugged; taut-band and such are improvements, but... servo is what's easily available for
    a DIY project.
    Ah, had not thought about the counter weight,

    ** Moving coil meters all have them - excepting maybe some edge reading types.

    Essential to keep the scale linear.

    https://thefactfactor.com/facts/pure_science/physics/ammeter-and-voltmeter/5931/



    ..... Phil

    Ya, I've had enough meters apart that after it was said, I remembered
    the counterweight on the opposite end of the pointer.

    It helps with clock hands as well. I have a cheap wall clock that would die when the battery didn't have enough power to move the second hand uphill. I added a counterweight and it runs a couple of months more now before I need to replace the battery.

    That used to be a standard feature on clock hands when they were wind up. A lot of electric clocks don't bother. Also they often don't have second hands. The leverage on the minute and hour hands is a lot greater.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 17 21:02:58 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 1:13:55 PM UTC-4, Tim+ wrote:
    Cindy Hamilton <hami...@devnull.com> wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature >> tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.

    I think TNP has reached his “new tech” limit.

    The automatic headlights on my car are quite amazing. I haven’t worked out how the work but they’re a *lot* more sophisticated that a simple forward pointing photocell. I suspect some fairly serious image processing is going on.

    I assume you mean the high beam control? I don't use it. It's pretty good dipping to low beam, but it seems like a lot of things prevent going back to high beam. I just work that myself.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Apr 17 22:17:54 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/17/2022 06:51 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:49:12 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 02:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:18:43 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 10:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of >>>>> problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require >>>>> AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I've run into that a couple of times. In one case out of about 30
    programming and QA machines I found two that could run the program. I
    just happened to develop it on one of the two and was fat, dumb, and
    happy until I tried to distribute it.

    Python 3.x I assume? ESRI has been using 2.7 for some GIS scripting but >>>> are moving to 3.x. I can hardly wait to rewrite my scripts.

    Not sure, they run on a Debian virtual machine using Oracle Virtualbox.
    This is the last log output I can find if it means anything to you:

    Not a clue. Have I mentioned I hate VMs? Sometimes they're good for a
    laugh. Some sites with high availability systems respond to Linux like a
    vampire to garlic. What they don't know is under all those Server 20xx
    VMs, Redhat and kvm is holding the whole mess together.

    I use them to be able to run Linux shit on my grown up Windows systems.

    Do you have 10 or 11? I am running wsl with Ubuntu on one machine and
    Kali on another. wsl has come a long way and there now is a X server
    included that integrates nicely. I've got a dedicate Linux box too but
    for some things wsl works well.

    I did have problems on the laptop where the system would crash when the
    display went to sleep. I don't think HyperV played well with the Acer
    drivers. One or the other may have been fixed by now but I didn't
    reinstall wsl after removing it.

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bowman@montana.com on Mon Apr 18 06:56:38 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:01:49 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3a1bFbndrU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:41 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Only time PC is on is for adjusting satellite dish and HAM radio QO100 stuff >> that software has already been recompiled on the raspi, needs a new USB DVB-S2 tuner compatible with the Linux kernel.

    Have you looked at DragonOS? I'm running an old SuSE distro and have
    thought about trying it. I've been messing around with RTL-SDR on
    Windows and it sounds like one stop shopping for Linux.

    No, never used DragonOS.
    I have several RTL_SDR sticks now in the raspis, some are 1 ppm
    One reads my outside weather station :-)
    One reads airplane data using dump1090 and logs and displays it:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xgpspc_5_planes.gif

    One reads ship AIS data and logs and displays it:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xgpspc/index.html

    Also very old version.. Latest one has many more features.

    One 1 ppm I have laying about as spectrum analyser used with my own software:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html

    xpsa is running on my laptop, on the PC and I ported it to Rasberry too.
    Latest version has more features, I have not released it yet.


    I have done some QO100 reception stuff like receiving SSB and the wideband transponder with a rtl-sdr stick
    and some hardware I designed using this software on the laptop:
    http://www.pabr.org/radio/qo100sdr/qo100sdr.en.html
    rx:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/leandvb_contact.gif
    http://panteltje.com/pub/leandvb_wbbeacon_rx_2.gif

    These are the 1ppm sticks I use:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/272411458376

    There is more...

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Mon Apr 18 07:09:43 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:24:58 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1ksavwqomvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:11:05 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:42:23 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr54xtqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
    Optical media last very very long in the dark, I also used some M_Discs >>>> that box hold a thousand CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, Blu-ray discs and is full.
    Now I backup daily to 3 TB USB drives... two, in case I drop one.

    Just how much data have you got?! That is a lot of disks.

    I dunno, many are CD-R from many many years ago, with all sort of things, even movies.
    For more recent data this is sda2 from a Raspberry Pi4 with 4 GB RAM:
    /dev/sda2 3844510712 3239539624 409610424 89% /mnt/sda2

    so 89 % of a 4 TB Toshiba USB harddisk
    That includes images of SDcard, some distros, what not.
    Logs.. I have radiation logs that go back years for example.
    Backups of the website... smartphone, legal stuff, financial stuff, all code I wrote,
    security videos, all emails of the last 20 years or so, pictures I took and videos I made,
    many Usenet postings I saved back over the last 20 years, easy with the newsreader I wrote
    it has a search function, etc etc.., datasheets...
    But even Linux 'locate' will find things in seconds.

    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously, but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each
    which only records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate my neighbour's cat, which she found
    confusing. But it auto deletes after a month unless I save it.

    Yes, huge, but encoded, soem run at lower frame-rate,
    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bowman@montana.com on Mon Apr 18 07:02:11 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Mon Apr 18 08:59:31 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:55:50 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kscbchnmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Agreed apart from "disallow working in the same industry for N years after leaving". Most people probably work in the same
    industry for most of their life. So such a job means if you ever choose to leave, you can't get another job. I would therefore
    never take a job with that in the contract.

    Indeed

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  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 12:44:11 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:38:34 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>
    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to improve. >>>>>>>>> Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    There is a problem with AMD. Their implementation of VT-D (virtualization to use two OSes on one CPU) sux. It slows the system right down and it's hard to interact with it.

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  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 13:35:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:54:12 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 03:46 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:29:11 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:24 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously, >>>> but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each which only
    records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate >>>> my neighbour's cat, which she found confusing. But it auto deletes
    after a month unless I save it.

    So they're finding out about body cams. No auto delete after a month
    either. It can be years before the case comes to trial and they have to
    produce the camera video.

    You can turn them off.

    That feature may go away; they'll have to get more creative. Currently
    some bodycam systems vendors turn the camera on when the officer gets
    within a specified distance from the incident. That, of course, also
    implies the body camera is a radio collar for the cop.

    I thought they could be turned off out of respect for something, eg. they're talking about a deceased relative.

    Of course your arm could always get in the way.

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  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 13:34:28 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:50:47 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 03:45 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:24:59 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:55:20 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal
    <scott@slp53.sl.home>
    wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient than >>>>>>>>> intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify what >>>>>>>> area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where >>>>>>>> RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create >>>>>>>> optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now,
    the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality code >>>>>>> for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. >>>>>> Give
    them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter
    that
    used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration. >>>>> Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user interface >>>>> was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently different >>>>> that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K was >>>>> a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really >>>>> good after 3 decades...

    I have a mouse driver that's 130MB. WTF? That's over 3 times the size >>>> of the hard disk on a PC I had in 1991. What does the mouse driver do? >>>> Watch for left and right and a few button presses? In 1991 I think it >>>> was 30KB. 4000 times less efficient programming, we've really come far. >>>
    I looked at Java back in the late '90s. It wasn't too bad but as it grew >>> performance went into the toilet. The answer was 'you need a newer,
    faster machine.'

    Over twenty years of hardware improvements and Java apps still suck.

    I bought an Osborne 1 in '81. It was a CP/M machine and came with 2
    single side, single density 5 1/4" floppy drives for a massive 90 KB
    each. I later sent it back for the DD upgrade. Some how 90KB was enough
    to hold Wordstar, SuperCalc, or the BDS C compiler executables which
    happily ran in 64KB of RAM.

    Somehow Turbo Pascal managed to compile so fast that at first I thought
    it was broken compared to BDS.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

    Excellent movie but relevant how?

    The film shows how people gradually became stupider. The same is happening with programmers because they don't have to fit their programs into tight RAM allocations any more.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 13:43:12 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:24:53 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 03:48 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:39:41 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:56 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:50:36 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 04/17/2022 10:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:39:40 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 07:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    I have Zen2 (an AMD Ryzen 9 3900XT) and that's also TSMC, but 7nm. >>>>>>>>
    The equivalent CPU on Zen3 (Ryzen 9 5900X) is also 7nm.

    Yes, very fast.

    I've got a 5500U in my laptop. It's a 7nm Zen2 unlike the 5600U Zen3 >>>>>>> but
    I have no complaints for a $700 laptop.

    That's 0.4 of the speed of my desktop. Laptops suck.

    Until the company upgraded my desktop I was using the laptop for some >>>>> projects. It beat the hell out of an elderly Core i5 with a hard drive. >>>>>
    I'm not a real fan of laptops but they have their place. I'm using a >>>>> company supplied laptop for remote work. Admittedly the HDMI is plugged >>>>> into my desktop monitor though a switch and I use a bluetooth mouse and >>>>> keyboard but it's good enough to VPN in to a real machine.

    It's also difficult to travel with a desktop...

    I wonder what would happen if you tried to set up a desktop, keyboard, >>>> mouse, monitor on a table on a train?

    First you would have to find a train...

    You don't have trains? They're annoying things with shitty brakes that
    would cause a car to be taken off the road. They expect everything else
    to get out of their way. And they never go where you want to when you
    want to. About time we got rid of those useless things which actually
    use more fuel per person than a car.

    Oh, we have trains but they're hauling coal to BC to ship to China.

    There's a coal hauling train goes past me as there's a power station 10 miles down the road. The rails can't handle the weight, they're constantly repairing them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmTnWxpcEQ

    Someone has put a rude comment under there!

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg

    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    That was the Milwaukee Road terminal but they went under in the '70s.
    You can't see it but in the foreground the rails have been ripped up and turned into a bike/pedestrian trail.

    Yeah we have one of those. Nice smooth tarmac. I often startle people by going for a run barefoot along it. It's perfect for toughening the soles, hard but no sharp things. I also took a Scarlet Macaw with me one time (on a lead long enough for her
    to fly around), that amused everyone.

    The other terminal is next to an active rail line but the coal trains don't stop.

    The closest passenger terminal is 133 miles north. You might want to
    think twice about setting up a computer on the Empire Builder:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Montana_train_derailment

    Funny, we had a courier service called Amtrak. They went bust.

    Except for the east coast routes favored by government drones like Biden
    US passenger rail is pretty dismal. Freight isn't much better:

    https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/shippers-complain-about-union-pacifics-plans-to-meter-traffic/

    https://www.freightwaves.com/news/fertilizer-maker-faults-union-pacifics-plan-to-reduce-congestion

    The second one is the money shot. A major fertilizer manufacturer can't
    ship its product to the Midwest where the farmers are getting ready to
    plant. If the farmers skimp on fertilizer the yields will be down. Just
    what we need with Ukraine off the table at least for this season.

    Russia has loads of stuff to sell, buy that. They'll give you a good price.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 14:55:03 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 04:14:42 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 7:35:55 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
    In article <op.1kl2t...@ryzen.lan>, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com>
    wrote:
    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of
    people, about a foot long pointer.
    get a smaller one and a video camera.

    And a large TV display.

    Or projector. The Optoma ones are fucking bright. You can use them with sun streaming through the window.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 15:54:55 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 05:17:54 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 06:51 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:49:12 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 02:55 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:18:43 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 04/17/2022 10:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    You sound like a real programmer. As it happens I'm having a lot of >>>>>> problems with Python. Some idiot managed to make the program require >>>>>> AVX, when 50% of the users had CPUs predating that.

    I've run into that a couple of times. In one case out of about 30
    programming and QA machines I found two that could run the program. I >>>>> just happened to develop it on one of the two and was fat, dumb, and >>>>> happy until I tried to distribute it.

    Python 3.x I assume? ESRI has been using 2.7 for some GIS scripting but >>>>> are moving to 3.x. I can hardly wait to rewrite my scripts.

    Not sure, they run on a Debian virtual machine using Oracle Virtualbox. >>>> This is the last log output I can find if it means anything to you:

    Not a clue. Have I mentioned I hate VMs? Sometimes they're good for a
    laugh. Some sites with high availability systems respond to Linux like a >>> vampire to garlic. What they don't know is under all those Server 20xx
    VMs, Redhat and kvm is holding the whole mess together.

    I use them to be able to run Linux shit on my grown up Windows systems.

    Do you have 10 or 11?

    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid TPM requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something called Rufus.

    I am running wsl with Ubuntu on one machine and
    Kali on another. wsl has come a long way and there now is a X server
    included that integrates nicely. I've got a dedicate Linux box too but
    for some things wsl works well.

    I did have problems on the laptop where the system would crash when the display went to sleep. I don't think HyperV played well with the Acer drivers. One or the other may have been fixed by now but I didn't
    reinstall wsl after removing it.

    Apparently HyperV is an even bigger piece of shite than VT-X and Oracle Virtualbox.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 15:56:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Mon Apr 18 15:53:26 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:36:21 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:36:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote: >>
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean
    break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of
    market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good
    emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the
    emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software >>>>> that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that
    most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the >>>> rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally >>>> be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large >>>> cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually >>>> the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Yes, but never mind the details, Apple did get it to work very well,
    and maintained it for about ten years, then ceased to support it. By
    then, most of those critical apps wee no longer critical, or had been
    killed off by something else.

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Well I've never been accused of being arty, but OK.

    But for really critical stuff, nobody uses Windows for sure. It's
    Linux all the way, often controlling bespoke FPGA hardware.

    Why no Windows? Well, the US Navy tried, in the SmartShip IT-21
    program, for which the USS Yorktown was the testbed.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)>

    Long story short, someone in the engine room entered a bad value of an
    input form for pump performance recording, and crashed the Windows
    computer system and all associated shipwide networks. The ship was
    dead in the water, without propulsion, steering, or weapons. What
    could go wrong?

    Fortunately they were far from land, and not in a battle, so they
    didn't get sunk or blunder into anything. They had to reboot the
    entire ship. This all took about three hours.

    That was the end of SmartShip - only the name survived, used only for administrative activities, isolated from all tactical networks.

    UNIX was the follow-on answer, but the various big platform vendors
    became too expensive and too inflexible, and over time everything
    migrated to Linux, mostly Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), which IBM subsequently acquired. Wonder if IBM has learned anything since DoD abandoned AIX.

    Windows 3 decades ago is not equal to Windows today.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 15:58:45 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:09:43 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:24:58 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1ksavwqomvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:11:05 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 18:42:23 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kr54xtqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Some people backup to optical just in case.

    http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
    Optical media last very very long in the dark, I also used some M_Discs >>>>> that box hold a thousand CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, Blu-ray discs and is full.
    Now I backup daily to 3 TB USB drives... two, in case I drop one.

    Just how much data have you got?! That is a lot of disks.

    I dunno, many are CD-R from many many years ago, with all sort of things, even movies.
    For more recent data this is sda2 from a Raspberry Pi4 with 4 GB RAM:
    /dev/sda2 3844510712 3239539624 409610424 89% /mnt/sda2

    so 89 % of a 4 TB Toshiba USB harddisk
    That includes images of SDcard, some distros, what not.
    Logs.. I have radiation logs that go back years for example.
    Backups of the website... smartphone, legal stuff, financial stuff, all code I wrote,
    security videos, all emails of the last 20 years or so, pictures I took and videos I made,
    many Usenet postings I saved back over the last 20 years, easy with the newsreader I wrote
    it has a search function, etc etc.., datasheets...
    But even Linux 'locate' will find things in seconds.

    Security videos can be huge, I have two 4K cameras running continuously, but I have a core of a Ryzen 9 3900XT allocated to each
    which only records when it sees something suspicious. I've even used it to locate my neighbour's cat, which she found
    confusing. But it auto deletes after a month unless I save it.

    Yes, huge, but encoded,

    Still huge. Unencoded would be ridiculous.

    soem run at lower frame-rate,

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps max. Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off the already low price.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 16:06:28 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 16:00:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:43:21 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:24:53 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg
    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    No, we don't have to. We do because we can. :-P

    It achieves nothing apart from making you like like egotistical idiots, you're the laughing stock of the world.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 08:00:07 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:43:21 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:24:53 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg
    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    No, we don't have to. We do because we can. :-P

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 19 00:58:23 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:34:28 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:50:47 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 03:45 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:24:59 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 01:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:55:20 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/17/2022 09:46 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:08:45 +0100, Scott Lurndal
    <scott@slp53.sl.home>
    wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:


    Apple's processor is an ARM so it's going to be more efficient >>>>>>>>>> than
    intels X86

    When comparing RISC to CISC you have to be careful to specify >>>>>>>>> what
    area
    you're comparing for efficiency. Power consumption has been where >>>>>>>>> RISC
    has shone. It took a while for compilers to catch up to create >>>>>>>>> optimized
    code. Code size is necessarily greater, hence more RAM.

    Come now, risc processors have been used for three decades now, >>>>>>>> the compiler guys are really really good at generating quality >>>>>>>> code
    for all of them.

    No modern programmer is good at anything, especially tight coding. >>>>>>> Give
    them a computer from the 80s and they'd have trouble writing a
    calculator program to fit into 64KB.

    One product I worked on was a handheld pH / ion concentration meter >>>>>> that
    used an 8049.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_MCS-48

    I did the pH meter and another programmer did the ion concentration. >>>>>> Reading the electrode value from the A/D and driving the user
    interface
    was the same for both products but the math was sufficiently
    different
    that 2K wasn't enough to do both.

    There was also a benchtop meter/auto-titrator that used a Z-80. 64K >>>>>> was
    a real luxury.

    In reply to Scott Lurndal, yeah the compiler guys have gotten really >>>>>> good after 3 decades...

    I have a mouse driver that's 130MB. WTF? That's over 3 times the
    size
    of the hard disk on a PC I had in 1991. What does the mouse driver
    do?
    Watch for left and right and a few button presses? In 1991 I think
    it
    was 30KB. 4000 times less efficient programming, we've really come
    far.

    I looked at Java back in the late '90s. It wasn't too bad but as it
    grew
    performance went into the toilet. The answer was 'you need a newer,
    faster machine.'

    Over twenty years of hardware improvements and Java apps still suck.

    I bought an Osborne 1 in '81. It was a CP/M machine and came with 2
    single side, single density 5 1/4" floppy drives for a massive 90 KB
    each. I later sent it back for the DD upgrade. Some how 90KB was
    enough
    to hold Wordstar, SuperCalc, or the BDS C compiler executables which
    happily ran in 64KB of RAM.

    Somehow Turbo Pascal managed to compile so fast that at first I
    thought
    it was broken compared to BDS.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

    Excellent movie but relevant how?

    The film shows how people gradually became stupider. The same is
    happening with programmers because they don't have to fit their programs
    into tight RAM allocations any more.

    That's not stupider, that's doing things more efficiently, not
    having to waste your time hand optimising low level code.

    And plenty still do that anyway with single chip micros.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From charles@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 17:02:18 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    In article <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.

    --
    from KT24 in Surrey, England
    "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cindy Hamilton@21:1/5 to charles on Mon Apr 18 16:11:03 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-18, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
    In article <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.

    The company I worked for prior to my recent retirement made a
    wire-wrapped supercomputer in the 1980s. We sold one into China, and
    they took it apart and copied it. We started getting support requests
    for computers we'd never manufactured.


    --
    Cindy Hamilton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 10:37:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 12:56 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    I have several RTL_SDR sticks now in the raspis, some are 1 ppm
    One reads my outside weather station :-)
    One reads airplane data using dump1090 and logs and displays it:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xgpspc_5_planes.gif

    That's what I have mostly done. It's not extremely busy but I like to
    snoop on what's coming and going from the local airport. There is no
    ship traffic in this state :) With global warming maybe we will have an
    ocean in a couple of centuries.

    I've picked up a little SSB traffic but this area requires good antennas
    to pick up anything besides 2m.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to charles on Mon Apr 18 17:27:05 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.

    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Cindy Hamilton on Mon Apr 18 17:28:41 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:11:03 +0100, Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@devnull.com> wrote:

    On 2022-04-18, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
    In article <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get >>> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >>> >> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.

    The company I worked for prior to my recent retirement made a
    wire-wrapped supercomputer in the 1980s. We sold one into China, and
    they took it apart and copied it. We started getting support requests
    for computers we'd never manufactured.

    Charge them for it and make money.

    I'm guessing this "supercomputer" was about 1 MIP. My computers collectively do 30,000,000 MIPS, in my garage.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Mon Apr 18 16:35:18 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:56:22 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Oh I dunno, I did wirewrap a complete 19 inch rack with eurocards long ago,
    Had some RF too, well hundreds of kHz ..

    This was also fun:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_top.jpg
    http://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_bottom.jpg

    and this more recent:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/flight_controller_top_IMG_5866.JPG
    http://panteltje.com/pub/flight_controller_bottom_IMG_5864.JPG

    or this from long ago:
    http://www.panteltje.com/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_wiring_img_1756.jpg
    http://panteltje.com/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

    peeseebees? not me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 10:40:01 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 01:02 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)


    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 10:45:32 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 08:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you
    can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    You assume there is a circuit board to solder anything to. Wirewrap is
    great for prototyping before you bother with a board. Of course there's
    the dead bug method.

    https://www.instructables.com/Dead-Bug-Prototyping-and-Freeform-Electronics/

    Whoever did the dead bug arduino has a lot of time on his hands.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Cindy Hamilton on Mon Apr 18 10:48:01 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 10:11 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-18, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
    In article <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>>>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get >>>>> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >>>>> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.

    The company I worked for prior to my recent retirement made a
    wire-wrapped supercomputer in the 1980s. We sold one into China, and
    they took it apart and copied it. We started getting support requests
    for computers we'd never manufactured.


    Then there was the hybrid where circuit boards slotted into sockets but
    there was no backplane so you wired it up point to point.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 17:50:04 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:35:18 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:56:22 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts38vgmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >>>> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Oh I dunno, I did wirewrap a complete 19 inch rack with eurocards long ago, Had some RF too, well hundreds of kHz ..

    This was also fun:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_top.jpg
    http://panteltje.com/pub/z80/graphics_card_bottom.jpg
    and this more recent:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/flight_controller_top_IMG_5866.JPG
    http://panteltje.com/pub/flight_controller_bottom_IMG_5864.JPG

    or this from long ago:
    http://www.panteltje.com/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_wiring_img_1756.jpg
    http://panteltje.com/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

    peeseebees? not me.

    Those all look soldered. And that's the way I like to do stuff.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 17:51:41 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:40:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 01:02 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    I astonished someone at work when he was trying to read a surface mount resistor value through a magnifying glass. I glanced at it without one and told him the value. Apparently I have the eyesight and the hearing of a 16 year old. Unfortunately not
    the body.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 10:52:13 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 05:44 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:38:34 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all
    they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half
    and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    There is a problem with AMD. Their implementation of VT-D
    (virtualization to use two OSes on one CPU) sux. It slows the system
    right down and it's hard to interact with it.

    That's not a general problem. There was a period with the early Athlons
    that didn't implement some of the new Intel instructions but I've leaned towards AMD with no problem.

    It wasn't AMD but I recall one processor that ran CP/M and DOS, both
    rather poorly. National maybe?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 17:52:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:45:32 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:56 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you
    can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >>>> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    You assume there is a circuit board to solder anything to. Wirewrap is
    great for prototyping before you bother with a board. Of course there's
    the dead bug method.

    https://www.instructables.com/Dead-Bug-Prototyping-and-Freeform-Electronics/

    Whoever did the dead bug arduino has a lot of time on his hands.

    I still see solder. I've made stuff without a board, but I always use solder or things fall off.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 17:55:36 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:52:13 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 05:44 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:38:34 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/16/2022 05:20 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-16, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31:06 +0100, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com> wrote:

    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:52:08 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 16/04/2022 11:35, RJH wrote:
    On 16 Apr 2022 at 11:06:34 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 15/04/2022 21:28, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:

    BEVs are very mature technology. There is only a bit left to >>>>>>>>>>> improve.
    Like aircraft and cars in general.

    Yeah, they keep saying that about computers, too. And they're >>>>>>>>>> constantly proved wrong.

    They are completely right about computers. They cant be clocked any >>>>>>>>> faster, they cant be made to work with much less power - all >>>>>>>>> they can do
    is add more cores.


    The new(ish) Apple processors use a fraction (between and half >>>>>>>> and a third) of
    the power used by an Intel equivalent.

    That by itself, says nothing
    A Z80 uses way less power than a pentium
    A motorcycle uses way less power than a ferrari.

    It says everything. Less power for the same load - google Apple M1

    I prefer things designed for adults.

    I very much doubt Apple can beat Intel anyway.

    It's not Apple vs Intel it's TSMC vs Intel.

    True, but possibly not the way you meant it. AMD is partnered with TSMC
    and the Zen 3+ design on TSMC 6nm capabilities is currently kicking
    Intel ass.

    There is a problem with AMD. Their implementation of VT-D
    (virtualization to use two OSes on one CPU) sux. It slows the system
    right down and it's hard to interact with it.

    That's not a general problem. There was a period with the early Athlons
    that didn't implement some of the new Intel instructions but I've leaned towards AMD with no problem.

    It's a fucking problem here. I run the Boinc projects Cosmology and LHC that use Oracle Virtualbox to run Linux under Windows. It slows the interface to a crawl. The same doesn't happen with Intel.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Mon Apr 18 16:59:54 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:58:45 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts77xamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps max.
    Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off the
    already low price.

    4 security cams go into one of those 4 channel security recorders from China Works very well, it does not record anything, I take the output via the LAN and re-encode it with ffmpeg,
    The intersting things is that one Raspberry Pi 4 with 4 GB memory records
    those 4 cams, plus 2 other IP cameras plus 2 audio tracks and the
    procesor load is still very low,
    plays background mp3 music without hickups at the same time!
    and I can browse the web with chromium at the same time.
    Raspi is a quad core.

    Tasks: 207 total, 1 running, 206 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    %Cpu(s): 6.7 us, 4.2 sy, 2.7 ni, 85.9 id, 0.0 wa, 0.0 hi, 0.5 si, 0.0 st MiB Mem : 3906.0 total, 2494.6 free, 443.2 used, 968.3 buff/cache
    MiB Swap: 100.0 total, 100.0 free, 0.0 used. 3268.2 avail Mem

    PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 32764 root 25 5 33144 12040 2412 S 8.2 0.3 35:19.57 xgpspc_mon
    513 root 20 0 222132 40308 24808 S 7.6 1.0 34:25.54 ffmpeg 25093 root 20 0 222140 40160 24668 S 5.9 1.0 42:42.68 ffmpeg
    512 root 20 0 16300 11504 3640 S 5.6 0.3 31:34.56 mcamip 25092 root 20 0 16300 11316 3468 S 5.6 0.3 40:53.77 mcamip2 32765 root 25 5 222044 40496 24724 S 3.6 1.0 15:52.81 ffmpeg 25786 root 20 0 148216 30692 23816 S 2.3 0.8 0:43.54 ffmpeg 25783 root 20 0 148348 31372 24184 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.82 ffmpeg 25784 root 20 0 147904 30724 23832 S 1.6 0.8 0:43.37 ffmpeg 25785 root 20 0 147912 31064 24172 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.52 ffmpeg 12871 root 20 0 4820 3316 2872 S 1.3 0.1 4:24.67 mpg123 25090 root 20 0 9764 3800 3396 S 1.3 0.1 7:01.93 wget2 25091 root 20 0 179936 29736 23628 S 1.3 0.7 6:35.35 ffmpeg

    raspi95: /mnt/sda2/security/video # temperature
    temp=48.0'C

    This raspi has alu housing and a fan
    result:

    In crontab new instances are started at different times with new serial number.
    rw-r--r-- 1 root root 577241088 Apr 18 18:49 bp1.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 853278720 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.mp2
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1194590208 Apr 18 18:49 mcam-2.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 954728448 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574967920 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_4_2822.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 575615956 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_3_154.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574837824 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_1_2989.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 576117352 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_2_3011.ts

    I use .ts format as it is more flexible and easier to fast-forward and go back in.
    bp1.ts is just airtraffic, weather air pressure etc from server on an other raspi.
    other audio goes to the audio directory.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 17:06:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/18/2022 05:44 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:38:34 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:


    There is a problem with AMD. Their implementation of VT-D
    (virtualization to use two OSes on one CPU) sux. It slows the system
    right down and it's hard to interact with it.

    Nonsense.


    That's not a general problem. There was a period with the early Athlons
    that didn't implement some of the new Intel instructions but I've leaned >towards AMD with no problem.

    Actually, virtualization capabilities were pioneered on the Opteron
    processors with SVM (Secure Virtual Machine) circa 2004. It was several
    years later before intel introduced the equivalent VT-X support (right
    after Intel adopted AMD's 64-bit extensions). First generation SVM
    still relied on paravirtualized memory management, but the second generation added nested page table support. Intel copied that as well with EPT.

    VT-D is a completely separate thing (I/O virtualization rather than
    CPU virtualization), and it relies on specialized PCI hardware that
    can be configured to provide multiple virtual devices (Virtual Functions
    in the nomenclature). Not something you'll find on a desktop box
    generally (although NVME cards and many network cards support SR-IOV).


    It wasn't AMD but I recall one processor that ran CP/M and DOS, both
    rather poorly. National maybe?

    At SGI we helped pioneer hypervisor development with a project called
    Crucible - we ran Windows and Linux on a two-processor HP Kayak simultaneously, in 1998.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 19 03:04:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:56:22 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you
    can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Nope, vast numbers of DEC minis were done that way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 11:08:01 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid TPM requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something
    called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same rufus?

    Apparently HyperV is an even bigger piece of shite than VT-X and Oracle Virtualbox.

    It's not great. They've been improving it supposedly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 11:04:45 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/18/2022 06:43 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    There's a coal hauling train goes past me as there's a power station 10
    miles down the road. The rails can't handle the weight, they're
    constantly repairing them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmTnWxpcEQ

    Someone has put a rude comment under there!

    The coal trains aren't popular. There still are some surface level
    crossings where you can wait forever for the train to pass.

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg


    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    Just about...


    That was the Milwaukee Road terminal but they went under in the '70s.
    You can't see it but in the foreground the rails have been ripped up and
    turned into a bike/pedestrian trail.

    Yeah we have one of those. Nice smooth tarmac. I often startle people
    by going for a run barefoot along it. It's perfect for toughening the
    soles, hard but no sharp things. I also took a Scarlet Macaw with me
    one time (on a lead long enough for her to fly around), that amused
    everyone.

    This one is paved in the downtown area but east of town it's gravel but
    fairly smooth.


    Funny, we had a courier service called Amtrak. They went bust.

    Amtrak has been on life support for a long time. I briefly worked for
    Penn Central when they were going under. You had to have money in your
    account before the bank would cash your paycheck. Amtrak took them over
    with all the problems. The tracks were a mess as was the rolling stock.
    There were a number of the '50s streamliner engines that were scrapped
    because nobody wanted to work on them.

    Amtrak did eventually get the tracks back in shape but only on the
    eastern corridor.

    Russia has loads of stuff to sell, buy that. They'll give you a good
    price.

    The US would rather cut its nose off to spite its face.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bowman@montana.com on Mon Apr 18 17:10:38 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:40:01 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc5iivFota6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/18/2022 01:02 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)


    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    Surface mount is easy on those boards with the round isles.
    I have reading glasses from the local drugstore
    and for the small SMDs I put 2 reading glasses on top of each other.
    Strength adds up.
    You do need to be a bit closer to what you are doing then.
    So far no problems.
    Have a small fan blow the smoke away from you..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 19 03:30:08 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 02:51:41 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:40:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 01:02 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you
    can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >>>> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    I astonished someone at work when he was trying to read a surface mount resistor value through a magnifying glass. I glanced at it without one
    and told him the value. Apparently I have the eyesight and the hearing
    of a 16 year old.

    And the 'brain'

    Unfortunately not the body.

    Or the dick.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bowman@montana.com on Mon Apr 18 17:22:47 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:45:32 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc5itaFova5U1@mid.individual.net>:

    https://www.instructables.com/Dead-Bug-Prototyping-and-Freeform-Electronics/

    Whoever did the dead bug arduino has a lot of time on his hands.

    Impressive, but not very portable.

    frequency counter in RS232 connector:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/freq_pic/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 10:43:03 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 11:06:37 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 16:00:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:43:21 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:24:53 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg
    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    No, we don't have to. We do because we can. :-P
    It achieves nothing apart from making you like like egotistical idiots, you're the laughing stock of the world.

    You are the sort of person with zero humility. I have no understanding of the fact that your opinion is not worth diddly in this universe. Whatever, this group is full of unthinking trolls. One more can't hurt.

    BTW, you appear to have given up on your quest for a large multimeter. I guess it's more important to rail about flags?

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 10:45:36 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >> >> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Mon Apr 18 14:03:22 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:53:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:36:21 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:36:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote: >>>
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean >>>>>> break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of >>>>>> market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good >>>>>> emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself
    included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the >>>>>> emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software >>>>>> that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that >>>>>> most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's
    exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the >>>>> rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally >>>>> be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large >>>>> cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually >>>>> the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k
    and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Yes, but never mind the details, Apple did get it to work very well,
    and maintained it for about ten years, then ceased to support it. By
    then, most of those critical apps wee no longer critical, or had been
    killed off by something else.

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Well I've never been accused of being arty, but OK.

    But for really critical stuff, nobody uses Windows for sure. It's
    Linux all the way, often controlling bespoke FPGA hardware.

    Why no Windows? Well, the US Navy tried, in the SmartShip IT-21
    program, for which the USS Yorktown was the testbed.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)>

    Long story short, someone in the engine room entered a bad value of an
    input form for pump performance recording, and crashed the Windows
    computer system and all associated shipwide networks. The ship was
    dead in the water, without propulsion, steering, or weapons. What
    could go wrong?

    Fortunately they were far from land, and not in a battle, so they
    didn't get sunk or blunder into anything. They had to reboot the
    entire ship. This all took about three hours.

    That was the end of SmartShip - only the name survived, used only for
    administrative activities, isolated from all tactical networks.

    UNIX was the follow-on answer, but the various big platform vendors
    became too expensive and too inflexible, and over time everything
    migrated to Linux, mostly Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), which IBM
    subsequently acquired. Wonder if IBM has learned anything since DoD
    abandoned AIX.

    Windows 3 decades ago is not equal to Windows today.

    True, but even today's Windows is not suited to anything truly mission critical, like a ships weapon systems. A ships self-defense system
    (defending against Mach 0.8 cruise missiles like the Neptunes recently
    used to sink the Moskva in the Black Sea) is instructive: From
    appearance (at the horizon about 20 miles away) to impact is about 20
    seconds. Use them wisely.

    And by the way, if the self-defense missile isn't moving on the launch
    rails in maybe 5 seconds, intercept becomes impossible, so pray that
    the CIWS succeeds.

    Nor does Microsoft claim otherwise, even today.

    It's also too late. All the Navy folk and consultants who sold IT-21
    to the Brass suffered severe career damage, many succumbing to wounds
    received in The Yorktown Incident. And the survivors were badly
    scalded.

    It will take more decades than Windows will last for the Navy to get
    over its Windows aversion.

    And Linux does work, so there is little pressure.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From LM@21:1/5 to CK1@nospam.com on Mon Apr 18 20:27:42 2022
    On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:06 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    Where can I buy a large analogue meter? Big enough to show to a room of people, about a foot long pointer.
    I have noticed that Ebay has everything. If you find the correct name
    for searching.

    Then there are Geebuying,
    Gearbest, https://www.gearbest.com
    Banggood,
    Aliexpress,
    Dealextreme
    and so on.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Mon Apr 18 21:25:20 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:06:39 +0100, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

    rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
    On 04/18/2022 05:44 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 01:38:34 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:


    There is a problem with AMD. Their implementation of VT-D
    (virtualization to use two OSes on one CPU) sux. It slows the system
    right down and it's hard to interact with it.

    Nonsense.

    Not nonsense, well known problem. Same program running on Intels and AMDs, the AMDs get sluggish. See LHC@Home for an example.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 21:26:02 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something
    called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same rufus?

    I would think so, it's quite versatile.

    Apparently HyperV is an even bigger piece of shite than VT-X and Oracle
    Virtualbox.

    It's not great. They've been improving it supposedly.

    The main problem is if it's on it breaks the VT-x.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Mon Apr 18 21:24:17 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:04:45 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 06:43 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    There's a coal hauling train goes past me as there's a power station 10
    miles down the road. The rails can't handle the weight, they're
    constantly repairing them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmTnWxpcEQ

    Someone has put a rude comment under there!

    The coal trains aren't popular. There still are some surface level
    crossings where you can wait forever for the train to pass.

    Isn't forever more like 30 seconds? No big deal.

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg

    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    Just about...

    Why?

    That was the Milwaukee Road terminal but they went under in the '70s.
    You can't see it but in the foreground the rails have been ripped up and >>> turned into a bike/pedestrian trail.

    Yeah we have one of those. Nice smooth tarmac. I often startle people
    by going for a run barefoot along it. It's perfect for toughening the
    soles, hard but no sharp things. I also took a Scarlet Macaw with me
    one time (on a lead long enough for her to fly around), that amused
    everyone.

    This one is paved in the downtown area but east of town it's gravel but fairly smooth.

    Funny, we had a courier service called Amtrak. They went bust.

    Amtrak has been on life support for a long time. I briefly worked for
    Penn Central when they were going under. You had to have money in your account before the bank would cash your paycheck.

    That last sentence doesn't make sense. I can';t give you ten dollars unless you already have another ten dollars?

    Amtrak took them over
    with all the problems. The tracks were a mess as was the rolling stock.
    There were a number of the '50s streamliner engines that were scrapped because nobody wanted to work on them.

    Amtrak did eventually get the tracks back in shape but only on the
    eastern corridor.

    Russia has loads of stuff to sell, buy that. They'll give you a good
    price.

    The US would rather cut its nose off to spite its face.

    The US is pathetic, it's scared of Russia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 21:22:26 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:59:54 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:58:45 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts77xamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps max.
    Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off the
    already low price.

    4 security cams go into one of those 4 channel security recorders from China Works very well, it does not record anything, I take the output via the LAN and re-encode it with ffmpeg,

    How complicated, mine are just USB cams, plug straight into the PC and it records.

    The intersting things is that one Raspberry Pi 4 with 4 GB memory records those 4 cams, plus 2 other IP cameras plus 2 audio tracks and the
    procesor load is still very low,
    plays background mp3 music without hickups at the same time!
    and I can browse the web with chromium at the same time.
    Raspi is a quad core.

    Tasks: 207 total, 1 running, 206 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    %Cpu(s): 6.7 us, 4.2 sy, 2.7 ni, 85.9 id, 0.0 wa, 0.0 hi, 0.5 si, 0.0 st
    MiB Mem : 3906.0 total, 2494.6 free, 443.2 used, 968.3 buff/cache MiB Swap: 100.0 total, 100.0 free, 0.0 used. 3268.2 avail Mem

    PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 32764 root 25 5 33144 12040 2412 S 8.2 0.3 35:19.57 xgpspc_mon
    513 root 20 0 222132 40308 24808 S 7.6 1.0 34:25.54 ffmpeg 25093 root 20 0 222140 40160 24668 S 5.9 1.0 42:42.68 ffmpeg
    512 root 20 0 16300 11504 3640 S 5.6 0.3 31:34.56 mcamip 25092 root 20 0 16300 11316 3468 S 5.6 0.3 40:53.77 mcamip2 32765 root 25 5 222044 40496 24724 S 3.6 1.0 15:52.81 ffmpeg 25786 root 20 0 148216 30692 23816 S 2.3 0.8 0:43.54 ffmpeg 25783 root 20 0 148348 31372 24184 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.82 ffmpeg 25784 root 20 0 147904 30724 23832 S 1.6 0.8 0:43.37 ffmpeg 25785 root 20 0 147912 31064 24172 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.52 ffmpeg 12871 root 20 0 4820 3316 2872 S 1.3 0.1 4:24.67 mpg123 25090 root 20 0 9764 3800 3396 S 1.3 0.1 7:01.93 wget2 25091 root 20 0 179936 29736 23628 S 1.3 0.7 6:35.35 ffmpeg

    raspi95: /mnt/sda2/security/video # temperature
    temp=48.0'C

    This raspi has alu housing and a fan
    result:

    In crontab new instances are started at different times with new serial number.
    rw-r--r-- 1 root root 577241088 Apr 18 18:49 bp1.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 853278720 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.mp2
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1194590208 Apr 18 18:49 mcam-2.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 954728448 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574967920 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_4_2822.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 575615956 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_3_154.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574837824 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_1_2989.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 576117352 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_2_3011.ts

    Uh ok. I'm a human not a geek, you've just posted greek. I use a GUI.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Apr 18 21:27:22 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:10:38 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:40:01 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc5iivFota6U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/18/2022 01:02 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adkFbplkU1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C# >>>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >>>> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    Surface mount is easy on those boards with the round isles.
    I have reading glasses from the local drugstore
    and for the small SMDs I put 2 reading glasses on top of each other.
    Strength adds up.

    Surely reading glasses are not the same as magnifying glasses?

    You do need to be a bit closer to what you are doing then.
    So far no problems.
    Have a small fan blow the smoke away from you..

    It's more the movement of the hands rather than the eyesight that's the limitation I find.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Mon Apr 18 21:28:43 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote: >>
    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get >> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working >> >> >> Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Mon Apr 18 21:32:45 2022
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 19:03:22 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:53:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:36:21 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote: >>
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:36:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Anyway, within the x86 architecture they keep adding instructions etc. Can't it be improved out of the mess?
    Not without giving up un backward compatibility and making a clean >>>>>>> break. Which has been against Intel theology for a long time.

    Apple went through the same thing, and eventually hired a bunch of >>>>>>> market research firms to run focus groups sessions...
    The question to be answered was if there had to
    be a Motorola processor on the motherboard, or would a really good >>>>>>> emulator suffice. The vast majority of those in the focus (myself >>>>>>> included) said that no Motorola hardware was needed, so long as the >>>>>>> emulation was in fact that good, because we all had essential software >>>>>>> that could not be replaced for one reason or another. I assume that >>>>>>> most of the focus groups came to the same answer, because that's >>>>>>> exactly what happened.

    Joe Gwinn

    It was a stretch, though; there was a 'toolbox' runtime library, and the >>>>>> rewrite of that was probably the first need, because it would normally >>>>>> be cached, and a two-stage emulator-plus-toolbox requirement used
    a LOT of cache. Apple had some PowerPC processors made with extra-large
    cache in the early days of the 68k-to-Power changeover, and eventually >>>>>> the OS'es became incompatible as emulations were dropped, first 68k >>>>>> and then Power code in the Intel years.

    Yes, but never mind the details, Apple did get it to work very well, >>>>> and maintained it for about ten years, then ceased to support it. By >>>>> then, most of those critical apps wee no longer critical, or had been >>>>> killed off by something else.

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Well I've never been accused of being arty, but OK.

    But for really critical stuff, nobody uses Windows for sure. It's
    Linux all the way, often controlling bespoke FPGA hardware.

    Why no Windows? Well, the US Navy tried, in the SmartShip IT-21
    program, for which the USS Yorktown was the testbed.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Yorktown_(CG-48)>

    Long story short, someone in the engine room entered a bad value of an
    input form for pump performance recording, and crashed the Windows
    computer system and all associated shipwide networks. The ship was
    dead in the water, without propulsion, steering, or weapons. What
    could go wrong?

    Fortunately they were far from land, and not in a battle, so they
    didn't get sunk or blunder into anything. They had to reboot the
    entire ship. This all took about three hours.

    That was the end of SmartShip - only the name survived, used only for
    administrative activities, isolated from all tactical networks.

    UNIX was the follow-on answer, but the various big platform vendors
    became too expensive and too inflexible, and over time everything
    migrated to Linux, mostly Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), which IBM
    subsequently acquired. Wonder if IBM has learned anything since DoD
    abandoned AIX.

    Windows 3 decades ago is not equal to Windows today.

    True, but even today's Windows is not suited to anything truly mission critical, like a ships weapon systems.

    I couldn't crash Windows 11 if I tried.

    A ships self-defense system
    (defending against Mach 0.8 cruise missiles like the Neptunes recently
    used to sink the Moskva in the Black Sea) is instructive: From
    appearance (at the horizon about 20 miles away) to impact is about 20 seconds. Use them wisely.

    And by the way, if the self-defense missile isn't moving on the launch
    rails in maybe 5 seconds, intercept becomes impossible, so pray that
    the CIWS succeeds.

    Nor does Microsoft claim otherwise, even today.

    It's also too late. All the Navy folk and consultants who sold IT-21
    to the Brass suffered severe career damage, many succumbing to wounds received in The Yorktown Incident. And the survivors were badly
    scalded.

    It will take more decades than Windows will last for the Navy to get
    over its Windows aversion.

    And Linux does work, so there is little pressure.

    Only if you can understand it, and you need really thick glasses and a weird haircut to do so.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jock@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 19 07:09:06 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:24:17 +1000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:04:45 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 06:43 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    There's a coal hauling train goes past me as there's a power station 10
    miles down the road. The rails can't handle the weight, they're
    constantly repairing them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmTnWxpcEQ

    Someone has put a rude comment under there!

    The coal trains aren't popular. There still are some surface level
    crossings where you can wait forever for the train to pass.

    Isn't forever more like 30 seconds?

    Not with our 5 mile long iron ore driverless trains.

    Longest and heaviest in the entire world.

    No big deal.

    Still no big deal, but a bit of a nuisance.

    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've
    been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg

    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    Just about...

    Why?

    More rabid rightists than most.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Jock on Mon Apr 18 14:40:08 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:09:17 PM UTC-4, Jock wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:24:17 +1000, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:04:45 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 06:43 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    There's a coal hauling train goes past me as there's a power station 10 >>> miles down the road. The rails can't handle the weight, they're
    constantly repairing them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmTnWxpcEQ

    Someone has put a rude comment under there!

    The coal trains aren't popular. There still are some surface level
    crossings where you can wait forever for the train to pass.

    Isn't forever more like 30 seconds?
    Not with our 5 mile long iron ore driverless trains.

    Longest and heaviest in the entire world.

    No big deal.

    Still no big deal, but a bit of a nuisance.
    No passengers, no tables. We have two passenger terminals but they've >>>> been recycled to other uses.

    https://aws.boone-crockett.org/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/hq-bcheadquarters2015.jpg

    Do you guys have to put a fucking flag everywhere?

    Just about...

    Why?
    More rabid rightists than most.

    What's wrong with a flag. I'm not a rightist by any means, but I have no problem with someone flying the flag... well, depending on the flag. When someone flies a Confederate flag, I have to wonder why. It's like identifying with the team that lost a
    baseball game in 1865.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Mon Apr 18 19:21:52 2022
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:52:51 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 10:20:33 AM UTC+10, whit3rd wrote:
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Not an uncommon view, but inaccurate. Excel, for example, started life
    as macintosh-only code; the Windows version was an afterthought, ported over.
    Isn't Excel just a Windows steal of Viscalc? Lotus 1-2-3 came next, so Excel is more a Chinese copy of that that exploited the Widows graphical user interface - and of course the MacIntosh had the first commercial graphical user interface, copied from
    the Xerox PARC Alto machines (of which there were a couple of thousand, although it was never marketed).

    Visicalc was the killer application for the original Apple 2 computer. Dan Flystra made a lot of money out of it - I had an acquaintance at MIT at the time, who had run into Flystra who was also active in starting up Byte (which was how I got to be
    foundation subscriber to the magazine).

    The Visicalc clone by Microsoft was MultiPlan; it was Mac users of Excel that convinced 'em to start over
    as they Windows-ed up their application, and Excel 2 for Windows was their first Intel-processor release.
    Apple's big win came with LaserWriters that could do the WYSIWYG thing, along with inexpensive
    local networking.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 19:51:35 2022
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.
    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
    with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
    wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.

    A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
    use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder,
    when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Apr 18 21:13:32 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 6:32:55 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 19:03:22 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:53:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 02:36:21 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote: >>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:36:26 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 23:15:57 +0100, Joe Gwinn <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 10:12:09 AM UTC-7, Joe Gwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:55:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:


    It will take more decades than Windows will last for the Navy to get
    over its Windows aversion.

    And Linux does work, so there is little pressure.

    Only if you can understand it, and you need really thick glasses and a weird haircut to do so.

    Commander Kinsey is almost as enthusiastic as Flyguy at reminding us how far he has descended into senile dementia.

    Serious computing used to rely on Unix (and even odder operating systems) but now the Linux toolbox has everything that anybody would need.

    You do have to understand at the level you need to, which always turns out to take some work, but thick glasses and odd haircuts are always entirely optional, unless you have to send the kinds of signal that dim clowns like Commander Kinsey can
    recognise.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 06:51:25 2022
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
    working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
    touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
    way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
    wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to erichp...@hotmail.com on Mon Apr 18 23:11:53 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot >>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is >>> C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when >>> I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
    working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things >>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
    way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing after.

    Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions? While wire wrap is a solid connection on earth, I would be surprised that it survived the vibration tests. I suppose a couple turns of insulation would prevent the first bite into the wire from
    braking. I've seen that happen on wire wrap when the wire was not inserted in the tool properly. The whole thing is pretty heavy too. I've got an old wire wrap board from one of the big name prototype board makers (I can't recall the name). It has a
    bunch of pins for mounting 16 pin chips (and a few 14 pin I think) with power and ground already connected. I don't recall if they had bypass caps or not. The board is rather thick to hold the pins solidly. Between the pins and the board, it weighs a
    ton.

    --

    Rick C.

    +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Tue Apr 19 06:30:23 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:27:22 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt8fwismvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Surely reading glasses are not the same as magnifying glasses?

    Same thing if positive.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Tue Apr 19 06:27:39 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:22:26 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt77op7mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:59:54 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:58:45 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts77xamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps max.
    Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off
    the
    already low price.

    4 security cams go into one of those 4 channel security recorders from China >> Works very well, it does not record anything, I take the output via the LAN and re-encode it with ffmpeg,

    How complicated, mine are just USB cams, plug straight into the PC and it records.

    Well, these are Sony 'starlight' SUPERHAD 0.01 lux PAL/NTSC cameras, need no IR LEDs, can see in the near dark,
    I use those for many things (shooting down F35s comes to mind).

    USB cams over twenty meters or more cable?

    The intersting things is that one Raspberry Pi 4 with 4 GB memory records
    those 4 cams, plus 2 other IP cameras plus 2 audio tracks and the
    procesor load is still very low,
    plays background mp3 music without hickups at the same time!
    and I can browse the web with chromium at the same time.
    Raspi is a quad core.

    Tasks: 207 total, 1 running, 206 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    %Cpu(s): 6.7 us, 4.2 sy, 2.7 ni, 85.9 id, 0.0 wa, 0.0 hi, 0.5 si, 0.0 st
    MiB Mem : 3906.0 total, 2494.6 free, 443.2 used, 968.3 buff/cache >> MiB Swap: 100.0 total, 100.0 free, 0.0 used. 3268.2 avail Mem >>
    PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND >> 32764 root 25 5 33144 12040 2412 S 8.2 0.3 35:19.57 xgpspc_mon
    513 root 20 0 222132 40308 24808 S 7.6 1.0 34:25.54 ffmpeg >> 25093 root 20 0 222140 40160 24668 S 5.9 1.0 42:42.68 ffmpeg >> 512 root 20 0 16300 11504 3640 S 5.6 0.3 31:34.56 mcamip >> 25092 root 20 0 16300 11316 3468 S 5.6 0.3 40:53.77 mcamip2 >> 32765 root 25 5 222044 40496 24724 S 3.6 1.0 15:52.81 ffmpeg >> 25786 root 20 0 148216 30692 23816 S 2.3 0.8 0:43.54 ffmpeg >> 25783 root 20 0 148348 31372 24184 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.82 ffmpeg >> 25784 root 20 0 147904 30724 23832 S 1.6 0.8 0:43.37 ffmpeg >> 25785 root 20 0 147912 31064 24172 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.52 ffmpeg >> 12871 root 20 0 4820 3316 2872 S 1.3 0.1 4:24.67 mpg123 >> 25090 root 20 0 9764 3800 3396 S 1.3 0.1 7:01.93 wget2 >> 25091 root 20 0 179936 29736 23628 S 1.3 0.7 6:35.35 ffmpeg >>
    raspi95: /mnt/sda2/security/video # temperature
    temp=48.0'C

    This raspi has alu housing and a fan
    result:

    In crontab new instances are started at different times with new serial number.
    rw-r--r-- 1 root root 577241088 Apr 18 18:49 bp1.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 853278720 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.mp2
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1194590208 Apr 18 18:49 mcam-2.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 954728448 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574967920 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_4_2822.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 575615956 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_3_154.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574837824 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_1_2989.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 576117352 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_2_3011.ts

    Uh ok. I'm a human not a geek, you've just posted greek. I use a GUI.

    I have 9 virtual desktops, 1 has some icons you can click on, one has a browser, one has a Usenet newsreader, one has an audio mixer,
    and 8 actually have a terminal.
    GUI is for dummies, like going to a supermarket and searching on the shelves for what you need from what is plonked down there.
    My computah speaks English and I can just type commands.
    Much simpler and faster than mousing around in menus (if what you want is there at all).
    Of course you need to know Unix...
    It is like going to a hardware store and asking 'I need this' and the guy will get it for you.
    But of course you need to know about what you want,
    Maybe in the US these days reading and writing is on the way out (if it ever was in there ;-) )
    and people will carry a book with pictures and take it and point to one to commie-nukate or whatever it was .
    Its a SLOW way, but was already used in the [flint]stone age as drawings on rocks have shown.

    Some people read comics (like poopeye), some read datasheets, some read code, and some just read what their computah says.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 07:45:28 2022
    On 19/04/2022 07:11, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> >>>>> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
    working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/ >>>>>>>>
    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things >>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the >>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and >>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
    wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions? While wire wrap is a solid connection on earth, I would be surprised that it survived the vibration tests. I suppose a couple turns of insulation would prevent the first bite into the wire from
    braking. I've seen that happen on wire wrap when the wire was not inserted in the tool properly. The whole thing is pretty heavy too. I've got an old wire wrap board from one of the big name prototype board makers (I can't recall the name). It has a
    bunch of pins for mounting 16 pin chips (and a few 14 pin I think) with power and ground already connected. I don't recall if they had bypass caps or not. The board is rather thick to hold the pins solidly. Between the pins and the board, it weighs a
    ton.


    Yep, for example the Apollo Guidance Computer backplanes. I saw a
    magazine article circa 1972-3 on the deep space interplantery missions,
    eg. mariner,pioneer,voyager and there was a photo of the ww-boards
    undergoing final visual inspection.

    Of course modified wrap was used, never seen regular wrap in real life
    for exactly the reasons you gave.

    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Max Demian@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 12:16:12 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 18/04/2022 17:51, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:40:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    I astonished someone at work when he was trying to read a surface mount resistor value through a magnifying glass.  I glanced at it without one
    and told him the value.  Apparently I have the eyesight and the hearing
    of a 16 year old.  Unfortunately not the body.

    Perhaps you are short sighted and took your glasses off.

    (Wasn't there a disc jockey who got into "trouble" for saying, "I feel
    like a 16-year-old boy... but where can I get one at this time?" (That
    would be legal now. I hope Gordon Brown apologised.))

    --
    Max Demian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Apr 19 08:43:58 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/19/2022 12:30 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:27:22 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt8fwismvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Surely reading glasses are not the same as magnifying glasses?

    Same thing if positive.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens



    Same lens but my magnifiers have an LED. They are more convenient for
    some things than the old magnifiers on a gooseneck with a round
    fluorescent.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bowman@montana.com on Tue Apr 19 15:12:28 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Apr 2022 08:43:58 -0600) it happened rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in <jc805cF8gn0U1@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/19/2022 12:30 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:27:22 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt8fwismvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Surely reading glasses are not the same as magnifying glasses?

    Same thing if positive.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens



    Same lens but my magnifiers have an LED. They are more convenient for
    some things than the old magnifiers on a gooseneck with a round
    fluorescent.

    Been using this for a while now:
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/aigostar-alexander-led-bureaulamp-dimbaar-opvouwbaar-10w-instelbare-kleurtemperatuur-3300k-6000k-zwart/9200000051890636/

    Selectable color temperature, dimmer.

    And +2.5 and +1.75 reading glasses from the drugstore.
    If all else was to fail I can use a camera and monitor.
    peeseebee hole:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/hole_close_up_img_0574.jpg

    Earth life form:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/butterfly_close_IMG_5716.JPG

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Tue Apr 19 17:46:30 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 03:21:52 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 7:52:51 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 10:20:33 AM UTC+10, whit3rd wrote:
    On Sunday, April 17, 2022 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    Nobody does anything critical with a Mac anyway. They're just for arty folk.

    Not an uncommon view, but inaccurate. Excel, for example, started life
    as macintosh-only code; the Windows version was an afterthought, ported
    over.
    Isn't Excel just a Windows steal of Viscalc? Lotus 1-2-3 came next, so Excel is more a Chinese copy of that that exploited the Widows graphical user interface - and of course the MacIntosh had the first commercial graphical user interface, copied from
    the Xerox PARC Alto machines (of which there were a couple of thousand, although it was never marketed).

    Visicalc was the killer application for the original Apple 2 computer. Dan Flystra made a lot of money out of it - I had an acquaintance at MIT at the time, who had run into Flystra who was also active in starting up Byte (which was how I got to be
    foundation subscriber to the magazine).

    The Visicalc clone by Microsoft was MultiPlan; it was Mac users of Excel that convinced 'em to start over
    as they Windows-ed up their application, and Excel 2 for Windows was their first Intel-processor release.
    Apple's big win came with LaserWriters that could do the WYSIWYG thing, along with inexpensive
    local networking.

    I'm guessing you never tried to use appletalk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Tue Apr 19 17:49:04 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 03:51:35 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.
    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
    with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
    wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.

    You have to hope those two pieces of metal are always in contact. I don't with solder, because they are "the same" piece of metal.

    Plus if you get a bit of corrosion, you get a voltage drop. You even get that in high current plugs - a 13A mains plug or a 30A GPU power plug.

    A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
    use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder, when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.

    Just had a look inside one, just one circuit board. Only the odd large component isn't on the board and is soldered on by wires.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Ricky on Tue Apr 19 17:57:24 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
    working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
    touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
    way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
    wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?

    Only because soldering hadn't been invented. Look in your stereo, now look in one from 40 years ago. They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Apr 19 17:56:08 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:27:39 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:22:26 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt77op7mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:59:54 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:58:45 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts77xamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps max.
    Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off
    the
    already low price.

    4 security cams go into one of those 4 channel security recorders from China
    Works very well, it does not record anything, I take the output via the LAN and re-encode it with ffmpeg,

    How complicated, mine are just USB cams, plug straight into the PC and it records.

    Well, these are Sony 'starlight' SUPERHAD 0.01 lux PAL/NTSC cameras, need no IR LEDs, can see in the near dark,
    I use those for many things (shooting down F35s comes to mind).

    Yeah the low lux would be nice. I tried IR but couldn't find a bright enough IR light. Considering just a PIR powered white light.

    But I'm guessing you paid a lot for a Sony camera.

    USB cams over twenty meters or more cable?

    I could do 100m if I wanted, what makes you think this is a problem?

    The intersting things is that one Raspberry Pi 4 with 4 GB memory records >>> those 4 cams, plus 2 other IP cameras plus 2 audio tracks and the
    procesor load is still very low,
    plays background mp3 music without hickups at the same time!
    and I can browse the web with chromium at the same time.
    Raspi is a quad core.

    Tasks: 207 total, 1 running, 206 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    %Cpu(s): 6.7 us, 4.2 sy, 2.7 ni, 85.9 id, 0.0 wa, 0.0 hi, 0.5 si, 0.0 st
    MiB Mem : 3906.0 total, 2494.6 free, 443.2 used, 968.3 buff/cache >>> MiB Swap: 100.0 total, 100.0 free, 0.0 used. 3268.2 avail Mem >>>
    PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
    32764 root 25 5 33144 12040 2412 S 8.2 0.3 35:19.57 xgpspc_mon
    513 root 20 0 222132 40308 24808 S 7.6 1.0 34:25.54 ffmpeg >>> 25093 root 20 0 222140 40160 24668 S 5.9 1.0 42:42.68 ffmpeg >>> 512 root 20 0 16300 11504 3640 S 5.6 0.3 31:34.56 mcamip >>> 25092 root 20 0 16300 11316 3468 S 5.6 0.3 40:53.77 mcamip2
    32765 root 25 5 222044 40496 24724 S 3.6 1.0 15:52.81 ffmpeg >>> 25786 root 20 0 148216 30692 23816 S 2.3 0.8 0:43.54 ffmpeg >>> 25783 root 20 0 148348 31372 24184 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.82 ffmpeg >>> 25784 root 20 0 147904 30724 23832 S 1.6 0.8 0:43.37 ffmpeg >>> 25785 root 20 0 147912 31064 24172 S 1.6 0.8 0:42.52 ffmpeg >>> 12871 root 20 0 4820 3316 2872 S 1.3 0.1 4:24.67 mpg123 >>> 25090 root 20 0 9764 3800 3396 S 1.3 0.1 7:01.93 wget2 >>> 25091 root 20 0 179936 29736 23628 S 1.3 0.7 6:35.35 ffmpeg >>>
    raspi95: /mnt/sda2/security/video # temperature
    temp=48.0'C

    This raspi has alu housing and a fan
    result:

    In crontab new instances are started at different times with new serial number.
    rw-r--r-- 1 root root 577241088 Apr 18 18:49 bp1.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 853278720 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.mp2
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1194590208 Apr 18 18:49 mcam-2.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 954728448 Apr 18 18:49 camera6-1809.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574967920 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_4_2822.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 575615956 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_3_154.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 574837824 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_1_2989.ts
    -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 576117352 Apr 18 18:49 hcam_2_3011.ts

    Uh ok. I'm a human not a geek, you've just posted greek. I use a GUI.

    I have 9 virtual desktops, 1 has some icons you can click on, one has a browser, one has a Usenet newsreader, one has an audio mixer,
    and 8 actually have a terminal.

    Can't you afford real ones? I just have 5 monitors. I can see them all at once.

    GUI is for dummies, like going to a supermarket and searching on the shelves for what you need from what is plonked down there.

    It's the way the human mind works, at least normal ones. If I showed you 50 pictures and asked you to find the widget, you could do it far faster than finding the word widget in a pile of 50 words.

    My computah speaks English and I can just type commands.

    It isn't English.

    Much simpler and faster than mousing around in menus (if what you want is there at all).

    Menus make it easy to find things. For common stuff keyboard shortcuts are always available.

    Of course you need to know Unix...

    No need to learn that shit.

    It is like going to a hardware store and asking 'I need this' and the guy will get it for you.
    But of course you need to know about what you want,

    If I want a 7mm widget, maybe they have a 7.2mm one which would be better. Maybe the guy is busy, maybe he doesn't know exactly what I need. Very easy to walk down the aisle that contains widgets and pick the one I need. The largest part of the human
    brain is devoted to sight.

    Maybe in the US these days reading and writing is on the way out (if it ever was in there ;-) )
    and people will carry a book with pictures and take it and point to one to commie-nukate or whatever it was .
    Its a SLOW way, but was already used in the [flint]stone age as drawings on rocks have shown.

    Some people read comics (like poopeye), some read datasheets, some read code, and some just read what their computah says.

    You are abnormal.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Max Demian on Tue Apr 19 18:00:21 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:16:12 +0100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 17:51, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:40:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    I've still got the tools and an assortment of wirewrap sockets but
    haven't done a project in a long time. I got away from hardware when
    surface mount came in. Even with magnifiers I don't have the vision to
    deal with that anymore.

    I astonished someone at work when he was trying to read a surface mount
    resistor value through a magnifying glass. I glanced at it without one
    and told him the value. Apparently I have the eyesight and the hearing
    of a 16 year old. Unfortunately not the body.

    Perhaps you are short sighted and took your glasses off.

    No, I don't need any glasses. Why would I need to be short sighted to focus on something close? What's the closest you can focus? I can focus an inch from the end of my nose. Not that I needed to move that close, you must have really low resolution
    retinas.

    (Wasn't there a disc jockey who got into "trouble" for saying, "I feel
    like a 16-year-old boy... but where can I get one at this time?" (That
    would be legal now. I hope Gordon Brown apologised.))

    It's not legal in the USA in half the states. Did it used to be illegal here?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to piglet on Tue Apr 19 17:58:19 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:51:25 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
    working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
    touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
    way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    And very time consuming.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    And you just hope they don't waggle loose or change size a bit under temperature and lose that tension.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Apr 19 18:08:10 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:30:23 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:27:22 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt8fwismvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Surely reading glasses are not the same as magnifying glasses?

    Same thing if positive.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens

    Surely reading glasses don't just magnify, they change the focusing distance. Someone who needs reading glasses is usually long sighted, so it needs to look to their eye as though the book etc is several feet away. Not necessary with a magnifying glass.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kinsey" on Tue Apr 19 17:12:13 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:56:08 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kvtbupfmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:27:39 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:22:26 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt77op7mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:59:54 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:58:45 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts77xamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps
    max.
    Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off
    the
    already low price.

    4 security cams go into one of those 4 channel security recorders from China
    Works very well, it does not record anything, I take the output via the LAN and re-encode it with ffmpeg,

    How complicated, mine are just USB cams, plug straight into the PC and it records.

    Well, these are Sony 'starlight' SUPERHAD 0.01 lux PAL/NTSC cameras, need no IR LEDs, can see in the near dark,
    I use those for many things (shooting down F35s comes to mind).

    Yeah the low lux would be nice. I tried IR but couldn't find a bright enough IR light. Considering just a PIR powered white
    light.

    But I'm guessing you paid a lot for a Sony camera.

    Well, what's a lot?
    about 35 USD


    USB cams over twenty meters or more cable?

    I could do 100m if I wanted, what makes you think this is a problem?

    Lots of loss in voltage over USB cables.
    google: 'USB maximum cable length'


    Uh ok. I'm a human not a geek, you've just posted greek. I use a GUI.

    I have 9 virtual desktops, 1 has some icons you can click on, one has a browser, one has a Usenet newsreader, one has an audio
    mixer,
    and 8 actually have a terminal.

    Can't you afford real ones? I just have 5 monitors. I can see them all at once.

    No need for that,


    GUI is for dummies, like going to a supermarket and searching on the shelves for what you need from what is plonked down
    there.

    It's the way the human mind works, at least normal ones. If I showed you 50 pictures and asked you to find the widget, you
    could do it far faster than finding the word widget in a pile of 50 words.

    I can tyoe 'widgetENTER' faster than you can find the icon, even without looking.
    On top of that I use zsh as shell, so usually if I did use a command before it is just cursor up a few times and ENTER,
    or the first character of the command, cursur up ENTER



    My computah speaks English and I can just type commands.

    It isn't English.

    You can make it as English (or any other language) you want by writing scripts for more complex stuff
    I have many of such scripts.


    Much simpler and faster than mousing around in menus (if what you want is there at all).

    Menus make it easy to find things. For common stuff keyboard shortcuts are always available.

    Of course you need to know Unix...

    No need to learn that shit.

    Bye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 19:08:17 2022
    On 19/04/2022 17:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:51:25 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> >>>>> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language >>>>> 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot >>>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is >>>>> C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when >>>>> I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a >>>>> working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things >>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the >>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and >>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    And very time consuming.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
    wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    And you just hope they don't waggle loose or change size a bit under temperature and lose that tension.

    Very true however solder joint fatigue and cracking over extreme
    temperature cycling was an even more serious problem. Back in the day
    many studies placed wire wrap well ahead of solder for reliability. One
    of the (few) benefits of RoHS is that lead free solders tend to perform
    better over extreme thermal cycling.

    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 19:20:10 2022
    On 19/04/2022 17:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com
    wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
    wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> >>> >>> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:

    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language >>> >>> 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a
    lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day
    job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but
    when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a >>> >>> working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/

    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two
    things
    touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the >>> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best. >>> >>
    It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research
    and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
    wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?

    Only because soldering hadn't been invented.  Look in your stereo, now
    look in one from 40 years ago.  They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.

    There is no mass wrapping system like there is flow or wave soldering so wrapping was always a niche technique not much seen in the mass market.

    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Tue Apr 19 20:14:00 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something
    called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to piglet on Tue Apr 19 15:21:19 2022
    piglet wrote:
    On 19/04/2022 17:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com
    wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
    wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles
    <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
    wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>: >>>> >>> >> >
    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake
    language
    'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is
    a lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day
    job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but
    when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap
    up a
    working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/ >>>> >>> >> >
    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two
    things
    touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's
    the
    way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the
    best.

    It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare >>>> >> your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little
    research and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire >>>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and >>>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping >>>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing >>>> after.

    Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?

    Only because soldering hadn't been invented.  Look in your stereo, now
    look in one from 40 years ago.  They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.

    There is no mass wrapping system like there is flow or wave soldering so wrapping was always a niche technique not much seen in the mass market.

    piglet


    When I was a grad student at Ginzton Lab, Grinnell Systems donated a
    brand new video processor to our group. It was about a 5-foot rack,
    with an all-wirewrap backplane. Pretty impressive monstrosity at the
    time (1984ish).

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Apr 19 20:24:10 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:12:13 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:56:08 +0100) it happened "Commander Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kvtbupfmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:27:39 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 21:22:26 +0100) it happened "Commander
    Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kt77op7mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:59:54 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2022 15:58:45 +0100) it happened "Commander >>>>> Kinsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in <op.1kts77xamvhs6z@ryzen.lan>:

    Mine appear to be limited by the CPU speed, one core is all the program will allocate per camera, so I only get 15 fps
    max.
    Usually 7 fps as the computer is very busy running Boinc.

    yes I keep several weeks.
    Been playing with the Pimoroni IR camera module on Raspberry, low resolution but detects body heat.
    That has now passed the 'several weeks 24/7 on' test.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    I got some cheap shit from China. It's never the resolution advertised, but that means they'll panic and give you 50% off
    the
    already low price.

    4 security cams go into one of those 4 channel security recorders from China
    Works very well, it does not record anything, I take the output via the LAN and re-encode it with ffmpeg,

    How complicated, mine are just USB cams, plug straight into the PC and it records.

    Well, these are Sony 'starlight' SUPERHAD 0.01 lux PAL/NTSC cameras, need no IR LEDs, can see in the near dark,
    I use those for many things (shooting down F35s comes to mind).

    Yeah the low lux would be nice. I tried IR but couldn't find a bright enough IR light. Considering just a PIR powered white
    light.

    But I'm guessing you paid a lot for a Sony camera.

    Well, what's a lot?
    about 35 USD

    That's not a lot. I didn't think Sony made them that cheap. But what resolution?

    USB cams over twenty meters or more cable?

    I could do 100m if I wanted, what makes you think this is a problem?

    Lots of loss in voltage over USB cables.
    google: 'USB maximum cable length'

    Obviously I don't power the camera from this end! The USB cable is for the data.

    Uh ok. I'm a human not a geek, you've just posted greek. I use a GUI. >>>
    I have 9 virtual desktops, 1 has some icons you can click on, one has a browser, one has a Usenet newsreader, one has an audio
    mixer,
    and 8 actually have a terminal.

    Can't you afford real ones? I just have 5 monitors. I can see them all at once.

    No need for that,

    Yes here is, it means I can see everything at once. And by the way I only paid 50 for one and the other 4 were free.

    GUI is for dummies, like going to a supermarket and searching on the shelves for what you need from what is plonked down
    there.

    It's the way the human mind works, at least normal ones. If I showed you 50 pictures and asked you to find the widget, you
    could do it far faster than finding the word widget in a pile of 50 words.

    I can tyoe 'widgetENTER' faster than you can find the icon, even without looking.

    You have to open the command prompt first or make it in focus.

    And actually, I can just press the windows key, then enter widget (or even wid would do) then press ENTER.

    To open VLC media player, I only have to press WINDOWS V L ENTER.

    On top of that I use zsh

    Why does linux have such weird names? Some of the disk programs I'm sure they deliberately made them almost the word fuck.

    as shell, so usually if I did use a command before it is just cursor up a few times and ENTER,
    or the first character of the command, cursur up ENTER

    So exactly like windows and DOS have always done. You had to get a special shell to have command history?

    My computah speaks English and I can just type commands.

    It isn't English.

    You can make it as English (or any other language) you want by writing scripts for more complex stuff
    I have many of such scripts.

    Writing programs to make a computer work ROTFPMSL!

    Much simpler and faster than mousing around in menus (if what you want is there at all).

    Menus make it easy to find things. For common stuff keyboard shortcuts are always available.

    Of course you need to know Unix...

    No need to learn that shit.

    Bye

    Ooooh you got the last word in, how childish.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to piglet on Tue Apr 19 20:26:11 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:20:10 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 19/04/2022 17:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com
    wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
    wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> >>>> >>> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>: >>>> >>> >> >
    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language >>>> >>> 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a
    lot
    you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day
    job is
    C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but
    when
    I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a >>>> >>> working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/ >>>> >>> >> >
    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two
    things
    touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the >>>> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best. >>>> >>
    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research
    and
    find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire >>>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and >>>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping >>>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing >>>> after.

    Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?

    Only because soldering hadn't been invented. Look in your stereo, now
    look in one from 40 years ago. They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.

    There is no mass wrapping system like there is flow or wave soldering so wrapping was always a niche technique not much seen in the mass market.

    Yeah we don't hand carve car chassises any more either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to piglet on Tue Apr 19 20:25:25 2022
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:08:17 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 19/04/2022 17:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:51:25 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> >>>>>> wrote:

    In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
    rbowman
    <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>: >>>>>> >> >
    On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language >>>>>> 'python' or so?
    I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot >>>>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

    While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is >>>>>> C/C++/C#
    and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when >>>>>> I get
    home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a >>>>>> working
    Z80 board.

    Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/ >>>>>> >> >
    soldering....
    :-)

    Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?

    Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
    Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things >>>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the >>>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best. >>>>>
    It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
    your ignorance for all to see.

    It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and >>>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
    according to the guidelines.

    And very time consuming.

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
    wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
    the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
    tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
    can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
    and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
    wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
    after.

    And you just hope they don't waggle loose or change size a bit under
    temperature and lose that tension.

    Very true however solder joint fatigue and cracking over extreme
    temperature cycling was an even more serious problem. Back in the day
    many studies placed wire wrap well ahead of solder for reliability. One
    of the (few) benefits of RoHS is that lead free solders tend to perform better over extreme thermal cycling.

    If you have something in the centre of the sun, maybe so. Still, why not wrap then solder?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 18:07:44 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/19/2022 01:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something
    called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same
    rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-vaGV8wy0

    Small as I need to go... A friend had one and you can get more accuracy
    than you would think. More than one human man has been killed with a .22.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 20 01:31:48 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:07:44 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 01:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid TPM >>>> requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something
    called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same
    rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-vaGV8wy0

    Small as I need to go... A friend had one and you can get more accuracy
    than you would think. More than one human man has been killed with a .22.

    I laugh at Americans killing each other. At least it keeps your numbers down to the same level as your intelligence.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Apr 19 21:07:10 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/19/2022 06:31 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:07:44 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 01:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid
    TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something
    called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same
    rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-vaGV8wy0

    Small as I need to go... A friend had one and you can get more accuracy
    than you would think. More than one human man has been killed with a .22.

    I laugh at Americans killing each other. At least it keeps your numbers
    down to the same level as your intelligence.

    Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. If you read about a mass
    shooting event with many wounded and few, if any, fatalities, the
    shooter(s) were black. If there were many fatalities usually the
    shooter(s) were white.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ricky on Wed Apr 20 09:50:49 2022
    On 18/04/2022 04:38, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:26:01 PM UTC-4, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.
    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.
    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    And the battery won't last anything like as long as a modern IC engine.
    My previous IC car lasted 45 years fine and only needed to be
    replaced because I was too stupid to fix the known windscreen leak
    with the car never garaged or car ported.

    Ok, in 2040, where will you buy gasoline, at the airport? The remaining ICE on the road won't justify keeping open a distribution network for autos. While gas will drop to probably $2 a gal in the next couple of years as BEVs start to make a dent in
    the number of gas cars on the roads, that will only last so long before prices start going back up as it becomes more costly to maintain the distribution network for the smaller amount of gas being produced. As the demand drops, eventually it will be
    very expensive, like $10 a gallon, to get any gas at all, and it will all be unleaded regular. So don't plan on running your high performance, high compression muscle car.

    The idea of running an ICE for another 45 years is pretty much a fantasy at this point.

    We will have to wait and see. I don't believe any of the proposed
    "plans" for moving to all EVs will work. There simply isn't enough
    electricity generating capacity in the UK or Germany to go around.

    Vintage cars get special dispensation. There are still a few running on
    leaded fuel because conversion is impossible. Come to that there are a
    few wood burning steam powered cars in the annual London to Brighton
    race that are still going more than 100 years after they were built.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtjeLwF1lP0

    I predict some variant of a Mad Max crossed with Cuba future where
    people cannibalise other vehicles for spares to keep the others going
    for decades after their "use-by" date. I can't see petroleum refining
    ever stopping - it is needed for aviation and for chemical feedstocks.

    UK barely has enough electricity in winter to keep the lights on. And if
    Russia turns off their gas tap then Germany will grind to a halt PDQ.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 20 10:35:01 2022
    XPost: uk.d-i-y, alt.home.repair

    On 15/04/2022 18:13, Tim+ wrote:
    Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@devnull.com> wrote:
    On 2022-04-15, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Obviously you have never seen the evolution of cars, airplanes,
    electronics and the advances that can be made in five years.

    Obviously you haven't .

    Nothing much has changed in any of those fields - they are pretty mature >>> tech.

    Coincidentally, I had a conversation this morning with an engineer who
    works for Ford. He works in image processing; one of the projects
    he worked on a few years ago enables the backup camera to initiate
    braking if it sees an obstacle. He actually benefited from this
    feature on a cloudy, gray day when he was backing up toward a gray car.

    My husband gave him an idea for additional features for automatic
    headlights. He said he'd split his bonus with us if he gets one.

    There really is a lot more going on than you realize, TNP.


    I think TNP has reached his “new tech” limit.

    The automatic headlights on my car are quite amazing. I haven’t worked out how the work but they’re a *lot* more sophisticated that a simple forward pointing photocell. I suspect some fairly serious image processing is going on.

    Mine are in the two short planks league. They are easily fooled into
    coming on by the very low winter sun or passing under a short underpass.

    To be fair in automatic mode they are almost always on when I think they
    should be but are sometimes on because of their bad design and my high latitude. Very rarely they fail to come on when poor local visibility is
    the reason for switching them on rather than absolute light levels.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 20 13:51:45 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 04:07:10 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 06:31 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:07:44 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 01:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: >>>>
    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid >>>>>> TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something >>>>>> called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same >>>>> rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-vaGV8wy0

    Small as I need to go... A friend had one and you can get more accuracy >>> than you would think. More than one human man has been killed with a .22. >>
    I laugh at Americans killing each other. At least it keeps your numbers
    down to the same level as your intelligence.

    Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. If you read about a mass
    shooting event with many wounded and few, if any, fatalities, the
    shooter(s) were black. If there were many fatalities usually the
    shooter(s) were white.

    The question is what colour are the dead?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rbowman@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Apr 20 09:52:21 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 04/20/2022 06:51 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 04:07:10 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 06:31 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:07:44 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 01:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid >>>>>>> TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something >>>>>>> called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same >>>>>> rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-vaGV8wy0

    Small as I need to go... A friend had one and you can get more
    accuracy
    than you would think. More than one human man has been killed with a
    .22.

    I laugh at Americans killing each other. At least it keeps your numbers >>> down to the same level as your intelligence.

    Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. If you read about a mass
    shooting event with many wounded and few, if any, fatalities, the
    shooter(s) were black. If there were many fatalities usually the
    shooter(s) were white.

    The question is what colour are the dead?

    Usually some shade of brown... The other clue is if the news articles
    are very vague in describing the alleged shooter and don't run a mug
    shot. If the perp was white that's in the lede.

    If the name appears to have been created by an illiterate trying to phonetically spell something you have another clue.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/

    You'll sometimes see numbers like 13/55. That's shorthand for 13% of the population accounting for 55% of the murders. That's overall. The
    Chicago PD did an extensive study in 2011. About 3% of the victims or perpetrators were white.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to rbowman on Wed Apr 20 09:27:15 2022
    On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:52:28 AM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
    On 04/20/2022 06:51 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 04:07:10 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

    On 04/19/2022 06:31 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 01:07:44 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote: >>>
    On 04/19/2022 01:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:08:01 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
    wrote:

    On 04/18/2022 08:54 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    11 of course. Why not take it as it's free? I bypassed the stupid >>>>>>> TPM
    requirement (which only 1 of my 7 machines passed) using something >>>>>>> called Rufus.

    I've used rufus to create bootable USB sticks for Linux distros. Same >>>>>> rufus?

    [change of subject]

    Ever fired a gun this small?
    https://youtu.be/w3PHD__2wsE
    FFWD to 6:10 to see a lego man being killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-vaGV8wy0

    Small as I need to go... A friend had one and you can get more
    accuracy
    than you would think. More than one human man has been killed with a >>>> .22.

    I laugh at Americans killing each other. At least it keeps your numbers >>> down to the same level as your intelligence.

    Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. If you read about a mass
    shooting event with many wounded and few, if any, fatalities, the
    shooter(s) were black. If there were many fatalities usually the
    shooter(s) were white.

    The question is what colour are the dead?

    Usually some shade of brown... The other clue is if the news articles
    are very vague in describing the alleged shooter and don't run a mug
    shot. If the perp was white that's in the lede.

    If the name appears to have been created by an illiterate trying to phonetically spell something you have another clue.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/

    You'll sometimes see numbers like 13/55. That's shorthand for 13% of the population accounting for 55% of the murders. That's overall. The
    Chicago PD did an extensive study in 2011. About 3% of the victims or perpetrators were white.

    Somebody with more sense might have classified the victims by income and education.

    Murder and violent crime in general is typically poverty-related.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7234816/

    is about China.

    https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Booklet1.pdf

    is a UN document, and correspondingly comprehensive. In the US the white population does tend to be richer and better educated. They commit fewer murders, but tend to own more, and more accurate guns, so when they do go insane and start killing people
    they do kill more of them.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Apr 20 13:44:00 2022
    On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 4:50:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 18/04/2022 04:38, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:26:01 PM UTC-4, Jock wrote:
    On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 05:45:30 +1000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>
    On 4/14/2022 2:44 PM, Jock wrote:


    Would you buy a 6.2 litre electric car?
    I'm not actually stupid enough to buy any electric car.

    Wait 5 years. They will be much better in many ways.New battery
    material, greater range,
    Still no use for me.
    charging times not much different that pumping a tank of gas.
    Don't believe that will be seen in 5 years with a viable battery life.

    And the battery won't last anything like as long as a modern IC engine. >> My previous IC car lasted 45 years fine and only needed to be
    replaced because I was too stupid to fix the known windscreen leak
    with the car never garaged or car ported.

    Ok, in 2040, where will you buy gasoline, at the airport? The remaining ICE on the road won't justify keeping open a distribution network for autos. While gas will drop to probably $2 a gal in the next couple of years as BEVs start to make a dent in
    the number of gas cars on the roads, that will only last so long before prices start going back up as it becomes more costly to maintain the distribution network for the smaller amount of gas being produced. As the demand drops, eventually it will be
    very expensive, like $10 a gallon, to get any gas at all, and it will all be unleaded regular. So don't plan on running your high performance, high compression muscle car.

    The idea of running an ICE for another 45 years is pretty much a fantasy at this point.

    We will have to wait and see. I don't believe any of the proposed
    "plans" for moving to all EVs will work. There simply isn't enough electricity generating capacity in the UK or Germany to go around.

    From the many conversations I had with people from the UK, it is surprising you can keep your grid up currently. So adding even one more BEV may bring it crashing down. Yes, I agree about the UK. It is more like a third world country than anything. I
    expect here in Puerto Rico they are better equipped to support BEVs.


    Vintage cars get special dispensation. There are still a few running on leaded fuel because conversion is impossible. Come to that there are a
    few wood burning steam powered cars in the annual London to Brighton
    race that are still going more than 100 years after they were built.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtjeLwF1lP0

    I predict some variant of a Mad Max crossed with Cuba future where
    people cannibalise other vehicles for spares to keep the others going
    for decades after their "use-by" date. I can't see petroleum refining
    ever stopping - it is needed for aviation and for chemical feedstocks.

    Actually, it isn't. All petroleum can be replaced with organic sources... that we don't need to wait millions of years for processing. It's a matter of time until that is more practical than it is today. The other alternative for many is hydrogen.
    Again, not entirely practical today, but it is being used and will be much more used as the source energy becomes cheaper.


    UK barely has enough electricity in winter to keep the lights on. And if Russia turns off their gas tap then Germany will grind to a halt PDQ.

    Exactly. Think of Puerto Rico and hurricane Maria. Yeah, that's where the UK is headed, but mostly because of the defeatist attitude.

    --

    Rick C.

    ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to rbowman on Thu Apr 21 03:31:31 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 2022-04-18, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    That's not a general problem. There was a period with the early Athlons
    that didn't implement some of the new Intel instructions but I've leaned towards AMD with no problem.

    It wasn't AMD but I recall one processor that ran CP/M and DOS, both
    rather poorly. National maybe?

    NEC V20

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Thu Apr 21 09:21:18 2022
    XPost: alt.home.repair, uk.d-i-y

    On 21/04/2022 04:31, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-04-18, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

    That's not a general problem. There was a period with the early Athlons
    that didn't implement some of the new Intel instructions but I've leaned
    towards AMD with no problem.

    It wasn't AMD but I recall one processor that ran CP/M and DOS, both
    rather poorly. National maybe?

    NEC V20

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20

    And it ran them surprisingly well for the time. I had one. The 16 bit
    V30 version was almost as fast as a 286 and had bit twiddling
    instructions. V20 was certainly faster than the 8088 by ~10%.

    ISTR there was a bun fight over reverse engineered/stolen microcode too.

    The most impressive of the alternative chips was the Cyrix FasMath FPU
    which was done by formal methods and found multiple bugs in the Intel
    387 implementation of the IEEE floating point standard in the process.
    It was about 50% faster and also more accurate which was very useful in scientific circles.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Apr 21 02:15:33 2022
    On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:49:13 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 03:51:35 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

    Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

    Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
    with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
    wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.

    You have to hope those two pieces of metal are always in contact. I don't with solder, because they are "the same" piece of metal.

    Crimping is done with metals that, unlike solder, don't cold-flow. Mil-spec crimps don't fail. There's a lot of crimped wiring in an airplane.

    A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required
    components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
    use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder, when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.

    Just had a look inside one, just one circuit board. Only the odd large component isn't on the board and is soldered on by wires.

    Look inside a modern one; bear in mind, only wave solder is suitable for making all the DC power wire
    connections, and then only with significant touchup afterward; one generally doesn't wave solder
    doublesided or surface mount.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)