• Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 8 10:14:07 2022
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 8 04:28:48 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 8 05:34:30 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies. Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild a few chips for $8.5m.
    Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Fri Apr 8 12:15:46 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373-bcab-0e347e7056a7n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.

    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
    And some Xray stuff cannot be that hard, cost is mostly profit..

    With ever more sanctions US is forcing other countries to make their own stuff, share their innovations.
    Take for example ARM, Russia could under these circumstances just say 'we no longer recognize your patents' HINT!!
    and build their own chips based on the ARM architecture.
    In the same way as the US robs Russia these days of about everything they can.
    Big US, very small place compared to the rest on my globe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Fri Apr 8 13:20:46 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in <7111b360-f332-4548-a43e-8b6e3e3e07b7n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee

    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech


    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. >ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies.
    Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
    can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild
    a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

    Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
    China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
    After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
    own chips on a big scale.

    Then all that is left is N Korea taking control of S Korea..

    Not sure there will be any 'tronics working after the WW3 nuke exchanges
    but old tube radios may survive if the glass does not break.

    When archaeologists dig up those cellphones they wonder
    'how did they ever make those small chips in the 20th century?'

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 8 06:43:43 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >>
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech


    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more.
    ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies.
    Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
    can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild >a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.
    Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
    China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
    After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
    own chips on a big scale.

    Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left). SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have). By the way, Russia can also make 65nm chip,
    likely imported technologies from China.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 8 06:46:41 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 11:21:46 PM UTC+10, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >>
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech


    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more.
    ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    As if Jan would know.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies.
    Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
    can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they might yield >a few chips for $8.5m.

    The clean rooms keep the chips clean. Doing sub-micron lithography on a wafer that has picked up a few sub-micron dust particles doesn't work all that well.

    Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.
    Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
    China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
    After the anti-Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their own chips on a big scale.

    If they can work out how. If they could they would have bankrupted TMSC by making similar chips and selling them more cheaply until TMSC went bust.

    https://www.tsmc.com/english

    Then all that is left is N Korea taking control of S Korea..

    Or Jan Panteltje getting back in touch with reality.

    Not sure there will be any 'tronics working after the WW3 nuke exchanges
    but old tube radios may survive if the glass does not break.

    When archaeologists dig up those cellphones they wonder
    'how did they ever make those small chips in the 20th century?'

    They didn't.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_scale_examples#Timeline_of_MOSFET_demonstrations

    Sub-100nm starts around the year 2000, 21st century stuff.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Fri Apr 8 14:35:47 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in <183796e4-4352-4abc-b3e1-85a0f73f52f9n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee

    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >>

    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech



    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot >more.
    ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation >technologies.
    Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
    can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild >>
    a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

    Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
    China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
    After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
    own chips on a big scale.

    Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left). >SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for >advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
    2 engines, poor F35


    By the way, Russia can
    also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.

    Do not underestimate Russia
    Seen it way ahead in some things at times.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com on Fri Apr 8 07:44:36 2022
    On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 10:14:07 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8M is about a tenth of a percent of what ASML and Gigaphoton invested
    in EUV. Looks like ASML won.

    Nobody needs xrays to get 28 nm features. DUV laser light is fine, and
    a heap easier to make.

    People played with nm-range synchrotrons and plasma sources ages ago,
    but the power was too low for production. So far, only tin droplets
    work.

    I doubt that the russkies have the resources to make nm ic's.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Fri Apr 8 07:48:48 2022
    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
    <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies. Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild a few chips for $8.5m.
    Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

    I wonder what they mean by "maskless lithographic machine". The only
    one I know of is direct e-beam, which is used to make masks but is too
    slow for ic production.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com on Fri Apr 8 08:00:12 2022
    On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 14:35:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee ><edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in ><183796e4-4352-4abc-b3e1-85a0f73f52f9n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >>>
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >>>

    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech



    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot >>more.
    ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation >>technologies.
    Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
    can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild

    a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

    Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
    China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
    After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
    own chips on a big scale.

    Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left). >>SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for >>advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
    2 engines, poor F35



    Manned jet fighters with two engines and armored cockpits are
    expensive relics of the glorious dogfighting divebombing past. A cheap
    smart missile or a pilotless plane will take one out. They are
    antiques, like battleships and tanks.

    The russians are losing planes and helicopters to shoulder-fired
    weapons because they fly low to drop dumb bombs visually. They are
    trying to fight WWII again.

    By the way, Russia can
    also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.

    Do not underestimate Russia
    Seen it way ahead in some things at times.

    Barbarism, mostly. With a great amount of luck, the Ukraine fiasco
    will shake things up and pull russia into the modern civilized world;
    sadly unlikely.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Apr 8 16:48:14 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 08 Apr 2022 08:00:12 -0700) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <fui05h504otn75fsoi4esk9vknsq30uabm@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 14:35:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >><edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in >><183796e4-4352-4abc-b3e1-85a0f73f52f9n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee >>>>
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee


    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>>> >> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech



    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot >>>more.
    ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

    According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation >>>technologies.
    Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
    can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild

    a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

    Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
    China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale. >>>> After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
    own chips on a big scale.

    Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left). >>>SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for
    advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
    2 engines, poor F35



    Manned jet fighters with two engines and armored cockpits are
    expensive relics of the glorious dogfighting divebombing past. A cheap
    smart missile or a pilotless plane will take one out. They are
    antiques, like battleships and tanks.

    Well, that F35 was making its VERY NOISY turn just above my head today,
    really low, any sound-seeking missile could have downed it.
    The thing is a joke really, even visual with a webcam I can do that in a few days coding,
    But 'stealth sells' like snake oil.



    The russians are losing planes and helicopters to shoulder-fired
    weapons because they fly low to drop dumb bombs visually. They are
    trying to fight WWII again.

    By the way, Russia can
    also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.

    Do not underestimate Russia
    Seen it way ahead in some things at times.

    Barbarism, mostly. With a great amount of luck, the Ukraine fiasco
    will shake things up and pull russia into the modern civilized world;
    sadly unlikely.

    I remember the small Rigonda portable all transistor TVs in the seventies..
    https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/kauno_rigonda_m.html
    nice job.


    US is stuffing that idiot CIA slave shitzensky with ever more weapons so they can sell more weapons as their mission in Afghanistan has ended
    same Bil Clignon also arisen from daemon-crates did, war making far from your bed in Europe.
    be lucky I am not Putin, preemptive strike has been in my mind.
    but maybe I would have turned it around, occupy Donbas etc and make an ultimatum:
    One shot at it and I nuke Kiev.
    Game over,
    Or MAD

    Never in history a new weapon has not be used, US hit Japan with nukes twice
    So you can wait for the next one
    'Build back better' will be 'build back bitter' if anyone left to build or be drafted at all.
    US NEEDS a lesson.


    I yam what I yam

    Jamming is not good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Apr 8 12:41:29 2022
    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373-bcab-0e347e7056a7n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.

    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
    And some Xray stuff cannot be that hard, cost is mostly profit..

    With ever more sanctions US is forcing other countries to make their own stuff, share their innovations.
    Take for example ARM, Russia could under these circumstances just say 'we no longer recognize your patents' HINT!!
    and build their own chips based on the ARM architecture.
    In the same way as the US robs Russia these days of about everything they can.
    Big US, very small place compared to the rest on my globe.


    The issues in XUV are (1) photoresist, and (2) brightness, i.e. wafers
    per hour. The issues in sub-32-nm litho are many--besides being
    incredibly expensive and precise beasts, wafer scanners have a zillion simultaneous measurements and adjustments of image quality running continuously.

    Nobody is going to be making the equivalent of a late-model ASML or
    Nikon scanner from a standing start in a year or two.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Fri Apr 8 10:17:18 2022
    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 12:41:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
    <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373-bcab-0e347e7056a7n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.

    They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
    Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
    And some Xray stuff cannot be that hard, cost is mostly profit..

    With ever more sanctions US is forcing other countries to make their own stuff, share their innovations.
    Take for example ARM, Russia could under these circumstances just say 'we no longer recognize your patents' HINT!!
    and build their own chips based on the ARM architecture.
    In the same way as the US robs Russia these days of about everything they can.
    Big US, very small place compared to the rest on my globe.


    The issues in XUV are (1) photoresist, and (2) brightness, i.e. wafers
    per hour. The issues in sub-32-nm litho are many--besides being
    incredibly expensive and precise beasts, wafer scanners have a zillion >simultaneous measurements and adjustments of image quality running >continuously.

    Nobody is going to be making the equivalent of a late-model ASML or
    Nikon scanner from a standing start in a year or two.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
    tin droplets.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 8 13:57:51 2022
    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
    wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
    tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving >weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving again. >Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to Time-Nuts >domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

    The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
    13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
    things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.



    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri Apr 8 20:31:53 2022
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
    tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
    weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to Time-Nuts domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/



    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Fri Apr 8 23:15:48 2022
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
    wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
    tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving >>weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving >>again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to >>Time-Nuts domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

    The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
    13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
    things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.

    Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors

    How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc

    The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.

    1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio




    --
    MRM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 8 16:33:10 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 4:15:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted >>> tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving >>weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving >>again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to >>Time-Nuts domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

    The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
    13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
    things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.
    Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors

    How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc

    The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.

    1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio

    Someone commented:
    "This is a totally fabricated story. TSMC has never announced anything about the 1 nm node."

    I agree. 3nm is more likely.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Fri Apr 8 20:36:09 2022
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 6:32:00 AM UTC+10, Mike Monett wrote:
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]
    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
    tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving again.
    Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    It's been the accepted solution for a while. Back around 1985 when Cambridge Instruments tried to commercialise the Thompson CSF shaped beam electron beam microfabricator, we were going for write on the fly. The Hewlett-Packard helium-neon laser
    interferometer that we were going to use to keep track of where wafer was couldn't cope with a stage moving faster than 1 metre per second. Zygo had an interferometer that could cope with 10 metres per second which I rather liked, but we didn't actually
    need the faster stage.

    The project fell over when we had done enough work to realise that what Thompson CSF had offered us as pre-production prototype was actually a rather crude proof-of-principle machine, and our production planning expert demonstrated that it would take
    more resources than we had - or could get - to finish the job in the time we had promised. It cost us as much to buy off our contract obligations as it would have done to finish the job, but we could find the money and we couldn't find the engineers.

    The only good part of the story is that the Bell Labs shaped beam electron microfabricator that did go into production and got sold to European Semiconductor Structures at Aix-en-Provence was ten times slower than it had been promised to be.

    "The business plan failed because the e-beam lithographic machine had a tenth of the throughput anticipated for the specifications and the advantages on prices were not met."

    We might have got caught in the same way.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to Time-Nuts domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

    Getting that sort of performance needs state of the art performance in a lot of different areas.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sat Apr 9 13:55:57 2022
    On 4/8/22 7:33 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 4:15:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
    wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted >>>>> tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving >>>> weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving >>>> again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to
    Time-Nuts domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

    The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
    13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
    things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.
    Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors

    How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc

    The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.

    1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio

    Someone commented:
    "This is a totally fabricated story. TSMC has never announced anything about the 1 nm node."

    I agree. 3nm is more likely.


    Too bad. It'll be great when we reach 0 nm--infinite computing power!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    https://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Sun Apr 10 13:59:55 2022
    On Sat, 9 Apr 2022 13:55:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 4/8/22 7:33 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 4:15:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
    wrote:

    John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

    [...]

    What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
    (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
    continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

    And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted >>>>>> tin droplets.

    Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving >>>>> weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving >>>>> again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

    The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

    Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to
    Time-Nuts domain:

    https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

    The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts >>>> 13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
    things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.
    Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors

    How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc

    The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.

    1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio

    Someone commented:
    "This is a totally fabricated story. TSMC has never announced anything about the 1 nm node."

    I agree. 3nm is more likely.


    Too bad. It'll be great when we reach 0 nm--infinite computing power!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    That would improve Spice some.

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From boB@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 12 19:34:06 2022
    On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 07:44:36 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
    wrote:

    On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 10:14:07 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

    $8M is about a tenth of a percent of what ASML and Gigaphoton invested
    in EUV. Looks like ASML won.

    Nobody needs xrays to get 28 nm features. DUV laser light is fine, and
    a heap easier to make.

    People played with nm-range synchrotrons and plasma sources ages ago,
    but the power was too low for production. So far, only tin droplets
    work.

    I doubt that the russkies have the resources to make nm ic's.


    Mostly true. As Ed Lee said before, 65 nm is about it so far anyway.

    Why Russia Canít Replace TSMC
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_4R4X7AWtU


    boB

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)