• Re: Battery problems

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Apr 5 06:55:08 2022
    On 4/5/2022 6:46 AM, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    Said another way, is this a problem that has its cause at the factory
    or after-the-sale? (or, somewhere in-between)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Apr 5 07:06:51 2022
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 11:47:17 PM UTC+10, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    My guess is that it is going to be due to dendrite formation, leading to more rapid self-charge, which will lead to the core of the battery getting hotter than ambient, and even more rapid self-discharge.

    At some point the process of self-discharge and self-heating will presumably run away, and the battery will get hot enough for the cells to burst and catch on fire.

    I'd have imagined that batteries big enough for this to be a real risk would come with at least one temperature sensor at the core of the battery, and a microcontroller to read the sensor, process the data and warn the user, but I've not seen anything to
    suggest that people are actually doing this.

    You'd need a temperature sensor if you want to use the voltage across the battery as much of an indicator of it's state of charge, so it ought to be a pretty obvious idea.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 5 06:46:55 2022
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Apr 5 15:21:18 2022
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)?  I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards".  Or, charging/BMS.  But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by
    their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the
    roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Apr 5 07:47:22 2022
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 7:21:26 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)
    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.
    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    In case of the Bolt/LG, it was folded separators, manufacturing defects.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Tue Apr 5 07:56:07 2022
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.


    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.

    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical
    exchanges every day.


    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by
    their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the
    roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).

    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Tue Apr 5 12:24:08 2022
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical
    exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).
    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.

    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Apr 5 16:35:56 2022
    On 4/5/2022 7:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Well, that would be "information", too!

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and peak currents involved.

    What I'm getting at is where efforts could/should be directed to address
    this.

    E.g., if it was due to impurities in the materials used, then better "refining". If due to high charge (regen braking)/discharge rates,
    better battery/load management. If due to mechanical damage ("collisions"), better physical protections.

    I'm also wondering how the issue might play into recycling efforts.
    As the raw materials become more difficult to acquire, I suspect
    that will see more attention.

    We "know" how lead-acid batteries fail. And, can largely recycle their materials without worsening that failure rate. Will the same hold
    for these EV batteries? Or, will they effectively become "scrap"
    (again, depending on how the failures manifest)

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    That would seem to be addressable by design changes...

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).

    I suspect that is related to the distribution of ICE vs EV products out there. I can only claim to have seen (first hand) a single engine fire in a lifetime of driving. Though I have seen burnt out hulks (often "getting a ride" to <someplace>).

    [P.S. Did you finish your research/paper?]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Tue Apr 5 16:37:36 2022
    On 4/5/2022 7:47 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    In case of the Bolt/LG, it was folded separators, manufacturing defects.

    That *sounds* like it could be easily corrected, going forward
    (unless there is something that makes that particular aspect of
    manufacture "troublesome")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Apr 5 16:57:23 2022
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 4:37:48 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 7:47 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    In case of the Bolt/LG, it was folded separators, manufacturing defects.
    That *sounds* like it could be easily corrected, going forward
    (unless there is something that makes that particular aspect of
    manufacture "troublesome")

    It's mostly QA/QC problem, but the troubling part is that it was not discovered until 100,000 Bolt batteries were already made.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Tue Apr 5 22:48:03 2022
    On 4/5/2022 4:57 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 4:37:48 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 7:47 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    In case of the Bolt/LG, it was folded separators, manufacturing
    defects.
    That *sounds* like it could be easily corrected, going forward (unless
    there is something that makes that particular aspect of manufacture
    "troublesome")

    It's mostly QA/QC problem, but the troubling part is that it was not discovered until 100,000 Bolt batteries were already made.

    The Market is good for "teaching lessons". Hopefully, they have learned from that and won't let any other problem that *can* be caught in QC plague them, again. I.e., they *have* a means to address THAT problem.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Apr 6 09:22:09 2022
    On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 1:48:16 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 4:57 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 4:37:48 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 7:47 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    In case of the Bolt/LG, it was folded separators, manufacturing
    defects.
    That *sounds* like it could be easily corrected, going forward (unless
    there is something that makes that particular aspect of manufacture
    "troublesome")

    It's mostly QA/QC problem, but the troubling part is that it was not discovered until 100,000 Bolt batteries were already made.
    The Market is good for "teaching lessons". Hopefully, they have learned from that and won't let any other problem that *can* be caught in QC plague them, again. I.e., they *have* a means to address THAT problem.

    Yeah, like that is a lesson anyone needs to "learn". Every car line has problems and recalls. BEVs are no different. Obviously you don't remember the Pinto gas tanks or the Vega engine problems, or the Corvair handling problems, or the...

    The auto industry has done a lot better over the decades, but we still mess up. What was the name of the air bag maker, Tanaka? They went into Toyotas and many other brands. Then there was the Pentium floating point bug... wait, that's a different
    industry.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Apr 7 22:22:22 2022
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and >peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical
    exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).
    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.
    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Thu Apr 7 22:49:22 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 1:22:26 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically >high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and >peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical
    exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to >include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now). I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.
    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Can't be any worse than the garage fires we've seen with ICE vehicles. They are a bitch to put out, requiring special foams and such. At least a lithium ion battery fire only requires water.

    We won't have to worry about electron tanker trucks overturning on the highways every day. We already have a national electron distribution system that seems to be very, very safe.

    Just today I was driving my Tesla on the highway and had to switch the ventilation to recirculate because of the noxious fumes from a truck in front of me. It will be so nice to get the stinky, filthy petroleum engines off the road.

    Stink-be-gone!

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Fri Apr 8 00:34:03 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically >high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and >peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical
    exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to
    include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by >their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).
    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.
    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire.
    I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Apr 8 10:25:05 2022
    On 06/04/2022 00:35, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 7:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)?  I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards".  Or, charging/BMS.  But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Well, that would be "information", too!

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.

    What I'm getting at is where efforts could/should be directed to address this.

    E.g., if it was due to impurities in the materials used, then better "refining".  If due to high charge (regen braking)/discharge rates,
    better battery/load management.  If due to mechanical damage
    ("collisions"), better physical protections.

    I think the problem is in short that in a high power battery you have a
    lot of stored potential chemical energy and a very thin barrier
    separating reactive components. It doesn't take much for them to go wrong.

    I'm also wondering how the issue might play into recycling efforts.
    As the raw materials become more difficult to acquire, I suspect
    that will see more attention.

    I think the lithium will be fully recyclable but the electrolyte is
    probably spent or simply not worth the effort at end of life.

    We "know" how lead-acid batteries fail.  And, can largely recycle their materials without worsening that failure rate.  Will the same hold
    for these EV batteries?  Or, will they effectively become "scrap"
    (again, depending on how the failures manifest)

    If necessary zone refining can get anything pure again. I doubt that the
    purity of the electrodes or electrolyte is an issue. The right magic ingredients to keep it all long term stable will be though.

    Do you remember the chaos cause by the Chinese knock off capacitor
    recipe stolen from Murata that went haywire after about 5 years (by
    which time the damn things had been built into vast numbers of PC motherboards).

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem
    to include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected
    by their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve
    failures.

    That would seem to be addressable by design changes...

    I expect they will get better. The trouble is that pressure release
    valves wet with electrolyte have a nasty habit of gumming up when it
    dries and are much less willing to open the second or third time around.

    My instinct is that superfast charging and the associated rapid battery temperature rise has to be bad for the battery longevity no matter what
    the sales droids and marketeers may say. ISTR some models you can only
    super fast charge them every few months.

    I am slightly mystified how a car that has been recently running flat
    out can be safely charged at all without impacting longevity. Our Dyson
    vacuum cleaner the battery is too hot to touch after 20 minutes use and recharging it in that state leads to total capacity failure in under 3
    years from new. The replacement Chinese clone battery comes with a
    warning to let the thing cool down *before* putting it back on charge.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the
    roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).

    I suspect that is related to the distribution of ICE vs EV products out there.
    I can only claim to have seen (first hand) a single engine fire in a
    lifetime
    of driving.  Though I have seen burnt out hulks (often "getting a ride" to <someplace>).

    There are not that many EVs where I live up North. Hardly any charging
    points either and several high profile unfinished big charging sites
    that have been waiting for an electricity supply for nearly a year now!

    [P.S. Did you finish your research/paper?]

    It is in its final revision. First version insufficient performance and numerical analysis - second draft too much. It has split into two
    possibly three related papers as a result of becoming too long. I now
    have an i5-12600 which has changed performance markedly from a 3770.

    Dotting i's and crossing t's in the final revision step is a bit tedious
    so it has taken some time. There is an obvious follow-up using a related
    cubic method for hyperbolic orbits e>1 that I am now starting work on.

    I have found some very interesting compiler behaviour in the process of benchmarking the underlying code too - which I should also write up. MSC
    2022 can run rings around all the other compilers I have tried.

    But it requires you allow fastmaths and every coding extension that your
    CPU supports and critically in "Advanced" set the calling convention to vectorcall /Gv (and if necessary adjusting your code to suit it).

    Otherwise the code follows the old _Cdecl convention of returning the FP
    result on the x87 stack. Doing most of the work on the SSE or AVX512 FP hardware and then slams the result onto the stack so that it can load it
    into x87 ST(0). This creates a pipeline stall since the value cannot be
    loaded immediately and worse since the stack is only 8 byte aligned you
    get additional performance hits if the write spans a cache boundary.

    I have a new precision cube root algorithm that came out as a side
    effect and is faster than all existing methods. It relies on the way
    that speculative and out of order execution can effectively parallelise independent expressions computed from initially known values.

    This tips the balance in favour of using rather more complex rational polynomial starting guesses and fewer iterations to get the final answer (ideally just one pass through a higher order NR, Halley, D4 or D5).

    Every intermediate answer is a pipeline bottleneck since its value has
    to crystallise before the next computation that uses it can begin.

    BTW any suggestions which journal to publish new numerical algorithms in?

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Apr 8 03:12:03 2022
    On 4/8/2022 2:25 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 06/04/2022 00:35, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 7:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Well, that would be "information", too!

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically high >>> energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail various >>> ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and peak currents
    involved.

    What I'm getting at is where efforts could/should be directed to address
    this.

    E.g., if it was due to impurities in the materials used, then better
    "refining". If due to high charge (regen braking)/discharge rates,
    better battery/load management. If due to mechanical damage ("collisions"), >> better physical protections.

    I think the problem is in short that in a high power battery you have a lot of
    stored potential chemical energy and a very thin barrier separating reactive components. It doesn't take much for them to go wrong.

    Yes, but are the *types* of "things that go wrong" the sorts of things that
    can be mediated against? Or, is it all just serendipitous? Or, is there not (yet) enough data to determine likely correlates?

    Note that I'm not focusing on "fires" for the sake of their spectacular nature but, rather, as an obvious manifestation of *some* sort of failure. E.g.,
    the interior fabric doesn't spontaneously shred, turn pink, or begin emitting noxious fumes -- if it DID, then it would be an issue demanding attention.
    You don't hear anything about batteries prematurely ending their service life or other sorts of "failures".

    [Here, for example, lead acid "starter batteries" have a notoriously short lifespan, due to the high ambient temperatures. It's just an accepted fact
    of life. However, I *don't* hear anything about EVs suffering similar
    problems (with charge holding, longevity, etc.) -- but that could just be
    that those observations are "spectacular enough" to merit attention. And,
    none of the EV owners that I know have kept the same vehicle for more than
    2 or 3 years so hard to get that sort of information from them...]

    I'm also wondering how the issue might play into recycling efforts.
    As the raw materials become more difficult to acquire, I suspect
    that will see more attention.

    I think the lithium will be fully recyclable but the electrolyte is probably spent or simply not worth the effort at end of life.

    So, the "supply" of Li, going forward, won't be as taxed as it might
    otherwise have been (had the "old" Li not been reclaimable)?

    We "know" how lead-acid batteries fail. And, can largely recycle their
    materials without worsening that failure rate. Will the same hold
    for these EV batteries? Or, will they effectively become "scrap"
    (again, depending on how the failures manifest)

    If necessary zone refining can get anything pure again. I doubt that the purity
    of the electrodes or electrolyte is an issue. The right magic ingredients to keep it all long term stable will be though.

    Cost is always an issue. If recycling costs more than mining "new", then we have yet-another waste problem to address. OTOH, as EV batteries are likely only going to be replaced by a "dealer" (or other service facility -- i.e., not the vehicle owner as a DIY), it may be easier to capture those materials
    (and pass legislation to do so).

    Do you remember the chaos cause by the Chinese knock off capacitor recipe stolen from Murata that went haywire after about 5 years (by which time the damn things had been built into vast numbers of PC motherboards).

    Yup. I've rescued many monitors from that fate. I don't trust a computer
    with "bad caps" as it has to cause higher ripple and as many are present decoupling the CPU itself, I wonder the effect on the silicon. And,
    WORKING (used) computers are dirt cheap (free) so not worth the effort to
    dick with something that is dubious...

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to >>> include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by their
    thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    That would seem to be addressable by design changes...

    I expect they will get better. The trouble is that pressure release valves wet
    with electrolyte have a nasty habit of gumming up when it dries and are much less willing to open the second or third time around.

    But, if that was a significant source of the problem, instrumentation could
    be developed/added to detect when this is likely and flag the battery for replacement. With any of these scenarios, *knowing* the cause(s) is the
    first step to improving the quality.

    My instinct is that superfast charging and the associated rapid battery temperature rise has to be bad for the battery longevity no matter what the sales droids and marketeers may say. ISTR some models you can only super fast charge them every few months.

    Agreed. Imagine the effects of (high speed) regenerative breaking on a
    battery that was, moments earlier, delivering power and now being tasked with reabsorbing it. (e.g., our local speed limits, in town, are 45+MPH. Yet, there will be another stop light in half a mile or so; accelerate... brake... accelerate... brake. SWMBO's vehicle's average speed, over its lifetime,
    has been *19* MPH -- despite those 45+MPH speed limits!)

    I am slightly mystified how a car that has been recently running flat out can be safely charged at all without impacting longevity. Our Dyson vacuum cleaner
    the battery is too hot to touch after 20 minutes use and recharging it in that
    state leads to total capacity failure in under 3 years from new. The replacement Chinese clone battery comes with a warning to let the thing cool down *before* putting it back on charge.

    Yup. But, again, that can be addressed with better in$trumentation and control$.

    And, likely there is considerably more value place in an EV's battery pack
    than a vacuum cleaner...

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the roadside
    about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).

    I suspect that is related to the distribution of ICE vs EV products out there.
    I can only claim to have seen (first hand) a single engine fire in a lifetime
    of driving. Though I have seen burnt out hulks (often "getting a ride" to >> <someplace>).

    There are not that many EVs where I live up North. Hardly any charging points either and several high profile unfinished big charging sites that have been waiting for an electricity supply for nearly a year now!

    They (cars) are common enough that you will recognize one anytime you are out (a neighbor has 4 of them -- and keeps replacing them every year or two).
    But, by far, there is more emphasis on (pickup) trucks and SUVs, here (though that neighbor had a electric Lexus SUV, and a RAV4 at one time; presently have an electric Jeep in their "stable").

    The overwhelming belief here is in petroleum burning -- diesel or gasoline. Cars "last" a lot longer than in other parts of the country (no salt on roadways) so it's easy to keep a car for 50+ years... No one bothers to
    bring an EV to a car show (unless they've retrofitted an electric plant to
    a "classic" ICE model).

    I'm currently researching retrofitting a larger block (7.4L) to my "classic car" (5.0L). Given the number of miles that I drive, annually, it would still be affordable at $20/gallon! :>

    [P.S. Did you finish your research/paper?]

    It is in its final revision. First version insufficient performance and numerical analysis - second draft too much.

    "Too much" in that it makes it a tougher read?

    It has split into two possibly
    three related papers as a result of becoming too long. I now have an i5-12600 which has changed performance markedly from a 3770.

    Possibly present the problem and proposed solution/methodology in one paper
    and followup with details of the proposed "investigation"?

    Dotting i's and crossing t's in the final revision step is a bit tedious so it
    has taken some time. There is an obvious follow-up using a related cubic method
    for hyperbolic orbits e>1 that I am now starting work on.

    But that can clearly be sliced off from the first (two?) paper(s).

    I have found some very interesting compiler behaviour in the process of benchmarking the underlying code too - which I should also write up. MSC 2022 can run rings around all the other compilers I have tried.

    Hmmm... I will have to take a look. Though, I'm targeting ARM so likely can't benefit (?).

    Compilers are rapidly approaching the point of becoming "suspect" in that it
    is increasingly hard to validate their output vs. input provided. Many (regulated) industries audit/escrow the *source* and *assume* that the compiler provides a faithful translation of that source. When the compiler starts "thinking for itself" (an exaggeration), one has to question that approach!

    But it requires you allow fastmaths and every coding extension that your CPU supports and critically in "Advanced" set the calling convention to vectorcall
    /Gv (and if necessary adjusting your code to suit it).

    So, you have to fit the problem to the hardware. While that may be a win in some applications (e.g., the astronomical ones you've described where some discretion is possible over deployment -- and, where you can tolerate sub-optimal performance from some of the "hunters"), I think it is probably too much to ask for general solutions.

    And, if the code generator has to create different instruction streams in the same binary (conditionally invoked based on observations of THIS hardware), that's gotta make for a real testing nightmare! :<

    Otherwise the code follows the old _Cdecl convention of returning the FP result
    on the x87 stack. Doing most of the work on the SSE or AVX512 FP hardware and then slams the result onto the stack so that it can load it into x87 ST(0). This creates a pipeline stall since the value cannot be loaded immediately and
    worse since the stack is only 8 byte aligned you get additional performance hits if the write spans a cache boundary.

    But, a compiler could "look ahead" and deliberately build a stack frame that ensures that alignment is in place when needed -- to a limited extent.

    I have a new precision cube root algorithm that came out as a side effect and is faster than all existing methods. It relies on the way that speculative and
    out of order execution can effectively parallelise independent expressions computed from initially known values.

    This tips the balance in favour of using rather more complex rational polynomial starting guesses and fewer iterations to get the final answer (ideally just one pass through a higher order NR, Halley, D4 or D5).

    Every intermediate answer is a pipeline bottleneck since its value has to crystallise before the next computation that uses it can begin.

    BTW any suggestions which journal to publish new numerical algorithms in?

    Sorry, no. My interests moved into more of the application domain shortly after graduation. So, I spend my research time looking into the problems
    that need to be solved instead of more theoretical pursuits (e.g., how
    to make prosthetic limbs more affordable, etc.)

    Good luck! Send me a copy when it's done -- or, if you need some NON TECHNICAL (I'm running close to "cognitive overload", presently) proofreading
    (e.g., you missed a space in "ohshit").

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Apr 8 09:21:39 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:25:12 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 06/04/2022 00:35, Don Y wrote:
    On 4/5/2022 7:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.

    Well, that would be "information", too!

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.

    What I'm getting at is where efforts could/should be directed to address this.

    E.g., if it was due to impurities in the materials used, then better "refining". If due to high charge (regen braking)/discharge rates,
    better battery/load management. If due to mechanical damage ("collisions"), better physical protections.
    I think the problem is in short that in a high power battery you have a
    lot of stored potential chemical energy and a very thin barrier
    separating reactive components. It doesn't take much for them to go wrong.

    By "doesn't take much" you mean a 70 mph head on crash or being parked next to fossil fuel vehicles that have a predilection for bursting into flames?


    I'm also wondering how the issue might play into recycling efforts.
    As the raw materials become more difficult to acquire, I suspect
    that will see more attention.
    I think the lithium will be fully recyclable but the electrolyte is
    probably spent or simply not worth the effort at end of life.

    The electrolyte is not anything that is of value. The lithium is also not particularly valuable. It is the nickel and cobalt that are getting hard to obtain and seeing large price increases. As battery technology improves, less cobalt will be used.
    The other materials are more of a supply chain issue than a fundamental limitation in availability. These can be addressed by stepping up production.


    We "know" how lead-acid batteries fail. And, can largely recycle their materials without worsening that failure rate. Will the same hold
    for these EV batteries? Or, will they effectively become "scrap"
    (again, depending on how the failures manifest)
    If necessary zone refining can get anything pure again. I doubt that the purity of the electrodes or electrolyte is an issue. The right magic ingredients to keep it all long term stable will be though.

    No need for zone refining or magic ingredients. When raw materials are obtained from mines, they are in very impure forms, often in hard to break down oxides along with other metals that constitute difficult to separate ingredients. From what I've read,
    the hard part of recycling batteries is taking them apart to get to the "good" stuff inside.

    But the best way to dispose of used BEV batteries is to not dispose of them. Instead recycle them to other uses. A car battery is considered worn out when the capacity drops to 70%. This is a point where the remaining range does not justify lugging
    around the weight of the battery. However, it is still a very workable battery for stationary devices, such as a home back up system. Even 70 kWh is very adequate in that application and the battery could last another 10 years! So we are still a long
    way from needing to deal with massive amounts of recycled batteries.


    My instinct is that superfast charging and the associated rapid battery temperature rise has to be bad for the battery longevity no matter what
    the sales droids and marketeers may say. ISTR some models you can only
    super fast charge them every few months.

    Yes, that is why the charge rate of BEVs is strictly limited by the Battery Management System (BMS) as a function of temperature, state of charge and likely age.

    I don't know what "models" you are referring to. Batteries? Cars? I've not heard of any such limitations. You probably got this from the sources that talk about BEV fires while ignoring ICE fires.


    I am slightly mystified how a car that has been recently running flat
    out can be safely charged at all without impacting longevity.

    ??? Can you explain what you are talking about?


    Our Dyson
    vacuum cleaner the battery is too hot to touch after 20 minutes use and recharging it in that state leads to total capacity failure in under 3
    years from new. The replacement Chinese clone battery comes with a
    warning to let the thing cool down *before* putting it back on charge.

    I guess there is a reason why Dyson got out of the BEV business. You did know they started to design an electric car, right? I think a lot of people were put off by the attachment storage. Yeah, it had all sorts of wands and hoses. ;) But the car
    was for real.


    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the
    roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).

    I suspect that is related to the distribution of ICE vs EV products out there.
    I can only claim to have seen (first hand) a single engine fire in a lifetime
    of driving. Though I have seen burnt out hulks (often "getting a ride" to <someplace>).
    There are not that many EVs where I live up North. Hardly any charging points either and several high profile unfinished big charging sites
    that have been waiting for an electricity supply for nearly a year now!

    Are you in North Dakota or Saskatchewan or maybe Finland? You have to be pretty far north to be colder than Norway where BEVs make up over 80% of new car sales. In the US, there aren't many states that don't have enough Tesla chargers to travel
    anywhere in the state you want... or at least pass through the state on your way to somewhere else.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 8 09:39:59 2022
    On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 03:12:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
    wrote:


    Agreed. Imagine the effects of (high speed) regenerative breaking on a >battery that was, moments earlier, delivering power and now being tasked with >reabsorbing it. (e.g., our local speed limits, in town, are 45+MPH. Yet, >there will be another stop light in half a mile or so; accelerate... brake... >accelerate... brake.

    Some people enjoy that. Some get sick.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Apr 8 18:34:01 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:12:26 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

    Agreed. Imagine the effects of (high speed) regenerative breaking on a battery that was, moments earlier, delivering power and now being tasked with
    reabsorbing it. (e.g., our local speed limits, in town, are 45+MPH. Yet, there will be another stop light in half a mile or so; accelerate... brake...
    accelerate... brake. SWMBO's vehicle's average speed, over its lifetime,
    has been *19* MPH -- despite those 45+MPH speed limits!)

    What does "Imagine the effects of...", what does that mean? I think you are an excellent example of my idea there is no actually logical thought. Rather we try to attach our emotions to logical processes, however, ultimately, all decision making is
    emotional with varying degrees of success in keeping it logical.

    It is clear that you know little about the workings of BEVs, yet you postulate all manner of scenarios involving them based on how you perceive their workings.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Apr 8 21:03:26 2022
    On 4/8/2022 2:25 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    BTW any suggestions which journal to publish new numerical algorithms in?

    I was thinking about that, last night, and realized there might be
    some information to gain as to "where" by examining the sorts of
    publications I typically consult for *other* "application domains"
    (that aren't as esoteric as yours).

    [I've never really paid attention to the source(s) of these documents
    as I'm really only interested in their content and just "accumulated"
    them from <wherever>]

    E.g., I've reviewed lots of simulations of EV battery performance
    that might shed insight on where folks interested in that sort of
    thing go to find it. (I doubt treatises on prosthetic limbs would
    shed much light! Or, heuristics for HVAC control, etc.) Most
    typically *not* "EV forums" (or HVAC forums) but, rather,
    scholastic undertakings which, I assume, is more in line with
    your audience. Or, are you looking to target something *specific*
    (like the SETI crowd)?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Fri Apr 8 21:13:50 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically >high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail >various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to
    include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by
    their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).
    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side of the road. In a junkyard maybe.
    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.
    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on fire.
    I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    --
    SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

    Another IDIOTIC comment by SNIPPERMAN - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot. Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural
    fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Fri Apr 8 22:43:18 2022
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery
    fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects, >> assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to
    include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by
    their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the >roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).
    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.
    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.
    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on
    fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot.

    Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

    are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary,
    as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.

    Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.

    The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep on
    self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat.

    Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done, and
    certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible.

    A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Mon Apr 11 21:20:48 2022
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    Does anyone *know* what cause(s) of recent/historical battery >> fires (in EVs, particularly)? I assume it is not related to
    abuse or "usage hazards". Or, charging/BMS. But, rather,
    originates in manufacturing (?)

    I'm not sure that there is one single cause.
    Part is the huge number of ev vehicles on the road now.

    Not necessarily a manufacturing problem so much as the intrinsically
    high energy density in such a battery when fully charged. It can fail
    various ways because of the high voltages, low internal resistance and
    peak currents involved.
    Both reactants very close together, with large-scale chemical exchanges every day.

    Is this an issue with material (im)purities, mechanical defects,
    assembly faults, etc.?

    A fair proportion are provoked by high speed impacts. The others seem to
    include thermal runaway in cells that were not adequately protected by
    their thermal cutout for whatever reason and/or release valve failures.

    I have yet to see an EV on fire myself. I see an ICE on fire by the
    roadside about every other year doing a fairly high mileage (lower now).
    I have never seen a car burning, or even a burned-out one on the side
    of the road. In a junkyard maybe.
    https://www.firehouse.com/photo-story/article/10550613/gasoline-tanker-bursts-into-flames-on-dc-beltway

    https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/inner-loop-of-capital-beltway-closed-at-american-legion-bridge-due-to-tanker-crash/139440/

    https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2021/07/tanker-truck-overturned-leaking-liquid-asphalt-on-i-495-in-bethesda/

    https://wtop.com/traffic/2021/06/truck-fire-blocks-all-thru-lanes-on-capital-beltways-inner-loop/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/08/26/1-killed-4-injured-in-tanker-blast-fire-on-beltway/4c661c42-e034-4abd-b58f-9f5ccb1f3a42/

    And here is one of the worst accidents I've every heard of...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/10/20/fiery-fatal-crash-clogs-area-highways/9b54a77d-765c-45e7-bc44-253cd30812e9/

    Gas tanker truck slams into a bridge abutment, causing a fire so intense, they would not reopen the outer beltway loop until it could be inspected for structural damage from the steel being over temperature.

    I hope BEVs are adopted sooner, rather than later so we can get rid of the scourge called gasoline.

    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.
    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught on
    fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    Another IDIOTIC comment by SNIPPERMAN - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot.

    Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire

    You prove my point, SNIPPERMAN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

    are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be necessary,
    as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.

    And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, SNIPPERMAN?

    Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.
    The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep on
    self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat.

    You obviously know NOTHING about battery fires - they CAN'T be kept cool because they are generating their own oxygen. ONLY the surrounding areas can be kept cool to prevent thermal runaway of adjacent batteries.


    Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done,
    and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible.

    Good luck with that, SNIPPERMAN. Perhaps you are clairvoyant - most firefighters AREN'T!


    A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred.

    Note to the uninformed: gas fires can be stopped by cutting off their source of oxygen; lithium battery fires generate their OWN OXYGEN, fool.


    --
    SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Tue Apr 12 04:23:32 2022
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:

    <snip>

    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught
    on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot.

    Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

    are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be
    necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.

    You prove my point, Sloman.

    One has to wonder what point Flyguy thought that he had made. He certainly hasn't posted a link to any entire parking lot full of EVs catching on fire.

    And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, Sloman?

    Or recent fires in London? The point is that it used to be real risk and we've worked out how to deal with it. Flyguy seems to think that if he can imagine a situation where the risk hasn't been dealt with, there's no possible way of avoiding the
    disaster he has managed to imagine.

    Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.

    The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to keep
    on self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat.

    You obviously know NOTHING about battery fires - they CAN'T be kept cool because they are generating their own oxygen. ONLY the surrounding areas can be kept cool to prevent thermal runaway of adjacent batteries.

    If you take the heat away they don't get as hot. Oxygen doesn't come into it. You know nothing about thermal management.

    Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done,
    and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible.

    Good luck with that, Sloman. Perhaps you are clairvoyant - most firefighters AREN'T!

    Any sensible battery management system has to have a least one temperature sensor in the middle of the battery - I'd expect to see at least two, with a second one on the surface of the battery. The temperature is going to be monitored by micropower
    processor, and if it registers a high internal temperature is can sound an alarm, and put in a mobile phone call to the fire service. The battery is big enough to keep the processor running 24/7.

    Not a lot of clairvoyance involved there, but you do need to know a bit about modern electronics, which Flyguy doesn't, even though he is posting to the group sci.electronics.design.

    A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred.

    Note to the uninformed: gas fires can be stopped by cutting off their source of oxygen; lithium battery fires generate their OWN OXYGEN, fool.

    Cutting off the oxygen source for number of cars parked in a parking garage isn't a well-known fire-fighting technique. Air is ubiquitous.

    Lithium battery fires don't generate any oxygen. The oxidiser is built into the battery, and the problem comes when the battery decides to start self-discharging fast enough to get hot. This is detectable long before it gets noticeable or troublesome,
    but Flyguy doesn't know enough about batteries to appreciate this.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Thu Apr 14 19:06:32 2022
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they caught
    on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot.

    Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

    are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be
    necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.
    You prove my point, Sloman.

    One has to wonder what point Flyguy thought that he had made. He certainly hasn't posted a link to any entire parking lot full of EVs catching on fire.

    And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, Sloman?

    Or recent fires in London? The point is that it used to be real risk and we've worked out how to deal with it. Flyguy seems to think that if he can imagine a situation where the risk hasn't been dealt with, there's no possible way of avoiding the
    disaster he has managed to imagine.

    Translation: NONE!

    Battery fires are TOTALLY different from structural fires, which can be fought with conventional fire fighting techniques - battery fires burn to complete extinction.

    The battery has to be kept cool with a copious flow of water, which is a pretty conventional firefighting technique. Once the battery has got hot enough to burst the cells and expose electrolyte to air where it can burn, the battery is going to
    keep on self-discharging until all the stored energy has turned into heat.

    You obviously know NOTHING about battery fires - they CAN'T be kept cool because they are generating their own oxygen. ONLY the surrounding areas can be kept cool to prevent thermal runaway of adjacent batteries.
    If you take the heat away they don't get as hot. Oxygen doesn't come into it. You know nothing about thermal management.

    Lithium batteries generate FAR MORE heat than you can take away. Do the math, SNIPPERMAN, a Tesla battery pack has 100 KWH - how much water do you need to take that heat away given that it is NOT submerged and you are spraying water on it?

    Catching the self-discharge at an earlier stage before the battery gets anywhere near that hot, and dragging the car out of the parking lot before it can catch on fire is an approach that would work. Flyguy doesn't understand how this might be done,
    and certainly isn't going to use what's left of his brain to work out the implications of it being possible.

    Good luck with that, Sloman. Perhaps you are clairvoyant - most firefighters AREN'T!

    Any sensible battery management system has to have a least one temperature sensor in the middle of the battery - I'd expect to see at least two, with a second one on the surface of the battery. The temperature is going to be monitored by micropower
    processor, and if it registers a high internal temperature is can sound an alarm, and put in a mobile phone call to the fire service. The battery is big enough to keep the processor running 24/7.

    Sounds like an avalanche sensor that tells you about to be killed.


    Not a lot of clairvoyance involved there, but you do need to know a bit about modern electronics, which Flyguy doesn't, even though he is posting to the group sci.electronics.design.

    Coming from the IDIOT who advocates NUKING and FIREBOMBING his own country!

    A gasoline powered car in the same state volatilises the gasoline in the tank, and water can wash that away, which spreads burning gasoline all over the place, so other firefighting techniques are preferred.

    Note to the uninformed: gas fires can be stopped by cutting off their source of oxygen; lithium battery fires generate their OWN OXYGEN, fool.
    Cutting off the oxygen source for number of cars parked in a parking garage isn't a well-known fire-fighting technique. Air is ubiquitous.

    LOL! It's called spraying them with water, IDIOT!


    Lithium battery fires don't generate any oxygen. The oxidiser is built into the battery, and the problem comes when the battery decides to start self-discharging fast enough to get hot. This is detectable long before it gets noticeable or troublesome,
    but Flyguy doesn't know enough about batteries to appreciate this.

    You are just a FUCKING IDIOT, SNIPPERMAN - lithium battery fires DO generate their own oxygen: LOOK IT UP!!!!


    --
    SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Thu Apr 14 20:54:08 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    <snip>

    I should have left it at that. Flyguy can't imagine that he's wrong and can't process any information that might let him realise that he could be wrong.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Thu Apr 14 20:49:26 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.

    There are parking lots full of hundreds of Teslas - at the Tesla factory - and they don't seem to burst into flames. Maybe if we freeze-dried Flyguy, and crushed him to powder, we could sprinkle the powder over a few EV's and see if they
    caught on fire. I don't see why they should, but it is clearly an experiment worth trying.

    Another IDIOTIC comment by Sloman - most homes don't catch fire either, but when they do it is impressive. But homes don't catch the neighborhood on fire: an EV CAN ignite an entire parking lot.

    Example? And the Great Fire of London and the Great Chicago Fire

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

    are both examples of house fires that did set the neighbourhood on fire. House spacing and construction is now regulated to stop that happening. EV parking is going to end up being controlled with that in mind, if it actually turns out to be
    necessary, as opposed to being a figment of Flyguy's fertile imagination.
    You prove my point, Sloman.

    One has to wonder what point Flyguy thought that he had made. He certainly hasn't posted a link to any entire parking lot full of EVs catching on fire.

    And how many Chicago fires have you seen lately, Sloman?

    Or recent fires in London? The point is that it used to be real risk and we've worked out how to deal with it. Flyguy seems to think that if he can imagine a situation where the risk hasn't been dealt with, there's no possible way of avoiding the
    disaster he has managed to imagine.

    Translation: NONE!

    Flyguy marks his evasion of any point being made by leaving out any reference to that point, a

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Flyguy@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Fri Apr 15 18:24:52 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:54:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.
    <snip>

    I should have left it at that. Flyguy can't imagine that he's wrong and can't process any information that might let him realise that he could be wrong.

    --
    SNIPPERMAN, Sydney


    LOL! News flash: SNIPPERMAN is at a LOSS FOR WORDS!! You didn't address a SINGLE point that I made!!

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  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Flyguy on Fri Apr 15 20:03:03 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:24:56 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 8:54:12 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:06:36 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 2:20:51 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:43:22 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 2:13:54 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:34:08 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:22:26 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:24:12 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 10:56:18 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:21:18 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/04/2022 14:46, Don Y wrote:
    <snip>
    Imagine ONE Tesla fire (it's pretty bad - everything but steel burns). Now, imagine an ENTIRE PARKING LOT of hundreds of Teslas (or other EVs) burning, which is Ricky's vision for tomorrow.

    Not exactly. It's what Flyguy imagines to be Rick's vision for tomorrow. Flyguy has a fertile imagination and no grasp of reality at all.
    <snip>

    I should have left it at that. Flyguy can't imagine that he's wrong and can't process any information that might let him realise that he could be wrong.

    LOL! News flash: Sloman is at a LOSS FOR WORDS!! You didn't address a SINGLE point that I made!!

    The point was that you didn't make any kind of point. You told us what you could "imagine" but you are in terminal senile dementia and can imagine all kinds of improbable events.

    That isn't making any kind of point. It's just attempting to inject meaningless nonsense into the discussion - as you make a habit of doing.

    Tell your minders to up your medication - you are getting more agitated than is good for you (or us).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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