• Inline Electric Timer Switch

    From Rickster@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 29 10:50:50 2022
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so
    stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly
    attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage
    to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 29 11:14:02 2022
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are under $100 USD.
    They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
    I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough? "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection! "
    Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
    "As much as you can afford, of course!"

    I assume the manufacturers just use whatever the device (MOV) inside is rated for.
    I would look for a model that offers lifetime warranty, insurance and support.

    For Industrial grade protection, I'd step up to a UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
    with integrated surge protection. A better choice, also because it will manage both long-term
    high- and low-line voltage situations.
    Subcategorized by "VA" (~ continuous power deliverable).
    So, what to buy, is closer to being answerable for average person, if they know about
    how much power
    their PC equipment is drawing. Then I would derate, double that total when shopping
    for the UPS.

    cheers, RS





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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Rickster on Tue Mar 29 12:06:03 2022
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 10:50:55 AM UTC-7, Rickster wrote:
    ...The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector...
    but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    That 'computer equipment' has sacrificial parts, and the fancy PC only needs a $50 replacement power
    brick when the surges kill it. The third solution is to plan, somewhat, for the larger surges by making
    the failure modes graceful and repairable.

    A friend in an urban home got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
    surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Robertson@21:1/5 to Rickster on Tue Mar 29 12:32:11 2022
    On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so
    stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly
    attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage
    to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?


    What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
    you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone.

    Home Depot for example:

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html

    John :-#)#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rickster on Tue Mar 29 21:34:57 2022
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in
    use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually
    gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used,
    but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the
    wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with
    cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I
    know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm
    wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances.
    Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
    protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?



    I must be missing something. Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
    strips are common and cheap. So are socket adaptors with timers. I
    didn't find any that did both in my brief search, but combining them
    would not be hard.

    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a UPS,
    which will have surge protection.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rickster@21:1/5 to John Robertson on Tue Mar 29 13:12:18 2022
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so
    stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly
    attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage
    to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
    you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone.

    Home Depot for example:

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html

    Wow! Home depot won't even let me look at that page. I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment. lol

    Yes, I've been looking at these, but I was hoping to find something ready to use rather than an erector set. My main complaint about building something is trying to make the box look nice. I found and outlet strip with a 6 ft, 14/3 cord. Add a box in
    the middle with this timer switch and the job is done.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sun-Joe-6-ft-14-3-Indoor-Outdoor-3-Outlet-Extension-Cord-White-PJ3STR06-143-WHT/311927553

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-20-Amp-60-Minute-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996#overlay

    The timer is sold locally. The outlet strip would need to be shipped to the store in Virginia or Maryland and brought to PR in my bags. The outlet strip is decent enough looking, but most switch boxes are a dog's lunch. It would also need to have good
    strain relief for the two cables.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Robertson@21:1/5 to Rickster on Tue Mar 29 14:00:08 2022
    On 2022/03/29 1:12 p.m., Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so
    stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly
    attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage
    to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
    you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone.

    Home Depot for example:

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html

    Wow! Home depot won't even let me look at that page. I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment. lol

    Yes, I've been looking at these, but I was hoping to find something ready to use rather than an erector set. My main complaint about building something is trying to make the box look nice. I found and outlet strip with a 6 ft, 14/3 cord. Add a box
    in the middle with this timer switch and the job is done.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sun-Joe-6-ft-14-3-Indoor-Outdoor-3-Outlet-Extension-Cord-White-PJ3STR06-143-WHT/311927553

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-20-Amp-60-Minute-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996#overlay

    The timer is sold locally. The outlet strip would need to be shipped to the store in Virginia or Maryland and brought to PR in my bags. The outlet strip is decent enough looking, but most switch boxes are a dog's lunch. It would also need to have
    good strain relief for the two cables.


    Have you looked at these - bottom of page - Time Delay Relays?

    https://www.mcmaster.com/octal-relays/

    You could use an old ceramic or bakelite tube socket and mount that in
    your power bar.

    John :-#)#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rickster@21:1/5 to David Brown on Tue Mar 29 13:22:00 2022
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in
    use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually
    gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used,
    but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the
    wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with
    cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I
    know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm
    wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances.
    Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
    protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?


    I must be missing something.

    I agree with that.


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
    strips are common and cheap.

    I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few
    tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.


    So are socket adaptors with timers. I
    didn't find any that did both in my brief search, but combining them
    would not be hard.

    I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is the perfect solution, just not in the
    appropriate form factor.


    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a UPS,
    which will have surge protection.

    Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold appliances, TV, microwave,... I was told even the refrigerator has crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they
    are wrong about the cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Rickster on Tue Mar 29 22:14:17 2022
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    Hash: SHA512

    Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One
    solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in
    use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually
    gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used,
    but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the
    wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with
    cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will
    actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I
    know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm
    wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances.
    Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
    protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?


    I must be missing something.

    I agree with that.


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
    strips are common and cheap.

    I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly
    worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
    stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries of
    resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started
    to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as
    soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power
    supply.

    And what happens when you take the (presumably dead because it did its
    job) surge-suppressor out of the circuit?




    So are socket adaptors with timers. I
    didn't find any that did both in my brief search, but combining them
    would not be hard.

    I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
    I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
    the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.

    All the ones I'm aware of are a pretty much mechanical thing with 2-4
    pips that toggle a switch as the timer rotates.

    I mean, you can get more expensive, but why?

    For example, this thing: https://www.homedepot.com/p/TORK-15-Amp-24-Hour-Mechanical-Plug-In-1-Grounded-Outlet-Timer-402B/207151445

    (HD breadcrumbs -> Home -> Electrical -> Wiring Devices & Light Controls
    - -> Timers)



    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a UPS,
    which will have surge protection.

    Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold appliances, TV, microwave,... I was told even the refrigerator has
    crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues here,
    so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the cause.
    I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

    If surges are such that normal "big dumb appliances" are running into
    trouble, I'd honestly call an electrician and get one of the whole-home suppressors integrated into my panel.


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    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Rickster on Tue Mar 29 22:04:56 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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    Rickster wrote:
    [...]
    Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
    protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).


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    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Tue Mar 29 18:16:57 2022
    On 3/29/2022 3:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
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    Rickster wrote:
    [...]
    Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
    protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).

    "UPS" is too general a specification.

    Most UPSs operate offline. As such, the "protection" available to the
    load is little more than a surge suppressor when the mains power is
    available.

    An *online* UPS (typically) affords more protection as the inverter
    is supplying the load at all times -- even when the mains are available.

    A FERRUPS would be more ideal due to inherent design characteristics.
    But, they tend to be heavier/bulkier. I had a 5KVA unit and it was
    about the size of a small dishwasher. <frown> By contrast, I have
    a 5KVA "conventional" UPS that is about the size of a (very) large
    bread box -- exclusive of battery pack (which, of course, is HUGE
    given the need to support such a large load for a significant amount
    of time)

    I used a "Lion Tamer" (pun likely intended!) for some years before my power needs and the number of loads serviced made a single-point solution impractical. A CVT would be a win assuming the load isn't overly reactive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rickster@21:1/5 to John Robertson on Tue Mar 29 21:49:38 2022
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 5:00:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2022/03/29 1:12 p.m., Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so
    stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly
    attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
    damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure >> you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone. >>
    Home Depot for example:

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html

    Wow! Home depot won't even let me look at that page. I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment. lol

    Yes, I've been looking at these, but I was hoping to find something ready to use rather than an erector set. My main complaint about building something is trying to make the box look nice. I found and outlet strip with a 6 ft, 14/3 cord. Add a box in
    the middle with this timer switch and the job is done.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sun-Joe-6-ft-14-3-Indoor-Outdoor-3-Outlet-Extension-Cord-White-PJ3STR06-143-WHT/311927553

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-20-Amp-60-Minute-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996#overlay

    The timer is sold locally. The outlet strip would need to be shipped to the store in Virginia or Maryland and brought to PR in my bags. The outlet strip is decent enough looking, but most switch boxes are a dog's lunch. It would also need to have
    good strain relief for the two cables.

    Have you looked at these - bottom of page - Time Delay Relays?

    https://www.mcmaster.com/octal-relays/

    You could use an old ceramic or bakelite tube socket and mount that in
    your power bar.

    I have no idea what you think I am looking for. But this isn't it. Thanks for the try though.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rickster on Wed Mar 30 08:39:17 2022
    On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
    One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
    not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
    eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
    could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
    mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
    put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
    will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
    appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
    worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
    damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
    what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
    value is less than say, $5,000?


    I must be missing something.

    I agree with that.


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
    cheap.

    I don't agree with that.

    I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
    found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.

    I don't know the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
    have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
    sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
    they will be designed to protect against that.

    Most "surge" protectors are nearly
    worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
    stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
    started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
    of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
    started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
    code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
    power supply.


    Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
    dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything
    else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
    based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
    protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
    missing something here - your secret specifications.


    So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
    in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.

    I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
    I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
    the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.


    Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
    egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
    Problem solved.


    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
    UPS, which will have surge protection.

    Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold appliances, TV, microwave,...

    Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
    never heard them considered "computer equipment".

    People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
    If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
    power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea.

    I was told even the refrigerator has
    crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
    here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
    cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Rich S on Wed Mar 30 08:38:16 2022
    On 29/03/2022 19:14, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    I doubt if the isolation provided by a simple timer switch will stop a lightning strike jumping across the contacts. I have seen 1" sparks!

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are under $100 USD.
    They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
    I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough? "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection!" Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
    "As much as you can afford, of course!"

    Is it surges or brownouts or repeated reconnects doing the damage?

    I have never yet seen a PC or a monitor fail and a close lightning
    strike last year I had a calorific spark jump from my scanner to the
    ADSL router. To my absolute amazement both survived unscathed. Various neighbours phones and mains powered alarm clocks were toast though.

    What can do a lot of damage is repeated retries of distribution circuit breakers on for a couple of seconds and then off again several times
    when there is an intermittent or borderline fault.

    A relay to ensure stuff stays off after a powercut might help you a lot.

    I assume the manufacturers just use whatever the device (MOV) inside is rated for.
    I would look for a model that offers lifetime warranty, insurance and support.

    That is pretty much all I have semi industrial grade 6 way rail in an
    extruded aluminium case and protecting everything of any value. It has a
    MOV is working indicator which so far has usually stayed lit every time. Officially it has no user replaceable parts but Rapid stock them....

    For Industrial grade protection, I'd step up to a UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
    with integrated surge protection. A better choice, also because it will manage both long-term
    high- and low-line voltage situations.
    Subcategorized by "VA" (~ continuous power deliverable).
    So, what to buy, is closer to being answerable for average person, if they know about
    how much power
    their PC equipment is drawing. Then I would derate, double that total when shopping
    for the UPS.

    A UPS is ideal since that will handle all situations including mains
    failure. I know for a fact that my PC will run on pretty much anything
    between 100-250v ac 50Hz. I only realised that the mains had lost a
    complete phase (not mine) when I tried to make a cup of coffee and the
    last remaining filament bulb in the house dimmed noticeably. It took
    forever to boil a kettle!

    LED lamps and SMPSU just draw ever more current as the voltage dips.

    I suspect US domestic market gear will croak at a much lower voltage
    than Japanese or UK PSUs and some of it doesn't get on with 50Hz mains
    either (they cut the transformer tolerances *that* fine).

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to Rickster on Wed Mar 30 22:04:50 2022
    On 30/03/2022 04:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so
    stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly
    attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage
    to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?


    I think a mechanical timer in the power cable of a computer sounds like
    a PITA, since it is bound to turn off just before you save some
    important document.

    You could make a motor-generator set with a foot-long plastic shaft
    between them. That should prevent damage to anything other than the
    motor, even in a thunderstorm, though it will have significant losses
    all the time. If you make sure it is noisy, someone might remember to
    turn it off.

    About 25 years ago I made a thing with a wall-wart plugged into the same
    power strip as the PC and peripherals and a buzzer built into the case
    of the PC. It had some simple logic and a timer so that it would make a
    very annoying noise after a few seconds if the wall-wart was powered
    without the PC being powered (i.e. when they shut down the computer but
    failed to turn off everything at the wall afterwards). It would also
    make the annoying noise if the PC was turned on without the wall wart
    being powered (to discourage anyone defeating the alarm by unplugging
    the wall wart). It mostly did achieve the desired behaviour, but was
    generally disliked by everyone who used that computer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Mar 30 05:30:49 2022
    On 3/30/2022 12:38 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:14, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost >> accrued if out of service)

    I doubt if the isolation provided by a simple timer switch will stop a lightning strike jumping across the contacts. I have seen 1" sparks!

    That will depend on the nature of the distribution network, age of equipment, how the lines are physically routed, etc.

    I'd make the same argument re: a solid-state switch; unless you can characterize things more fully, you may see the switch fail.

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are
    under $100 USD.
    They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
    I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough?
    "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection!" >> Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
    "As much as you can afford, of course!"

    Is it surges or brownouts or repeated reconnects doing the damage?

    I have never yet seen a PC or a monitor fail and a close lightning strike last
    year I had a calorific spark jump from my scanner to the ADSL router. To my absolute amazement both survived unscathed. Various neighbours phones and mains
    powered alarm clocks were toast though.

    Many new "electronic" (wired) phones have only nominal protection from fast/large transients. Often a pair of zeners acting as a clamp (and
    if they fail shorted, the line is busied out).

    What can do a lot of damage is repeated retries of distribution circuit breakers on for a couple of seconds and then off again several times when there
    is an intermittent or borderline fault.

    A relay to ensure stuff stays off after a powercut might help you a lot.

    When I lived in the midwest, outages weren't particularly "clean". You'd
    often get a warning flicker/brownout and, if you were on your toes, you'd unplug anything that didn't like the on-off-on-off-on-off-on-...OFF that
    would follow. (took me some time to realize the value of a UPS!)

    A UPS is ideal since that will handle all situations including mains failure. I
    know for a fact that my PC will run on pretty much anything between 100-250v ac
    50Hz. I only realised that the mains had lost a complete phase (not mine) when
    I tried to make a cup of coffee and the last remaining filament bulb in the house dimmed noticeably. It took forever to boil a kettle!

    LED lamps and SMPSU just draw ever more current as the voltage dips.

    I suspect US domestic market gear will croak at a much lower voltage than Japanese or UK PSUs and some of it doesn't get on with 50Hz mains either (they
    cut the transformer tolerances *that* fine).

    A lot depends on the design of the PSU *and* it's load. E.g., my PCs have 1100W power supplies but aren't loaded anywhere near that much (the UPS on
    the workstation I'm presently using claims ~200W... quite a pig by today's standards but that's got a pair of GPUs and several HBAs inside -- along with
    4 rust spindles). OTOH, when all the cores are running at 100% load factor
    and the GPUs are actually *doing* work, that figure climbs noticeably!

    But, while some of my other SFF/USFF boxes get annoyed at power glitches, these *tend* not to notice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rickster@21:1/5 to David Brown on Wed Mar 30 08:11:34 2022
    On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:39:25 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
    One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
    not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
    eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
    could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
    mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
    put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
    will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
    appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
    worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
    damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
    what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
    value is less than say, $5,000?


    I must be missing something.

    I agree with that.


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
    cheap.

    I don't agree with that.
    I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
    found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.

    I don't know

    Yes, that's my point. You can call these "surge protectors", but they have no rating and even if they have a rating, there's no reason to believe any numbers you read. They are worthless junk and are not surge protectors.


    the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
    have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
    sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
    they will be designed to protect against that.

    No, they are designed to make a profit. There is zero accountability for their "surge protector" claims, so they use the cheapest, most minimal components that will not protect anything. Lightning is the hardest surge to protect against as it has a
    hugely wide range of surge. I used to repair burglar alarms and one system had developed opens in the perimeter loop every place where the wire went through the same hole drilled in the joist as the AC wiring. There was enough voltage that an arc
    passed through both insulations and enough current to melt the perimeter wire in two forming little balls on the ends of the broken wires. The panel was fried of course. Any surge protector you can buy for $5 would have been destroyed and not protected
    equipment against damage.

    With no real way to compare surge protectors and no knowledge of what rating is required, the best bet is to disconnect the appliance.


    Most "surge" protectors are nearly
    worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
    stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
    started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
    of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
    started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
    code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
    power supply.

    Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
    dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
    based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
    missing something here - your secret specifications.

    Sometimes it is very hard to discuss things with you because you ignore so much of what is provided. There is decades of history behind this. You are in no position to argue that cap dried up in an 8 month old microwave. Please just stop posting silly
    ideas and assuming others know nothing, such as the idea that you can buy "surge protectors" that are worth anything for just $10. They are not surge protectors, they are outlet strips.


    So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
    in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.

    I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
    I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
    the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.

    Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
    egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
    Problem solved.

    Ok, I think we are done here. If you don't even know what sort of mechanical timer I'm talking about, you must live in a cave. Didn't I post links?


    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
    UPS, which will have surge protection.

    Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold appliances, TV, microwave,...
    Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
    never heard them considered "computer equipment".

    People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
    If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
    power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea.
    I was told even the refrigerator has
    crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
    here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

    Yes, we are done here.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rickster on Wed Mar 30 17:44:44 2022
    On 30/03/2022 17:11, Rickster wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:39:25 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
    One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
    not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
    eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
    could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
    mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
    put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
    will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
    appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
    worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
    damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
    what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
    value is less than say, $5,000?


    I must be missing something.

    I agree with that.


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
    cheap.

    I don't agree with that.
    I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
    found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.

    I don't know

    Yes, that's my point. You can call these "surge protectors", but they have no rating and even if they have a rating, there's no reason to believe any numbers you read. They are worthless junk and are not surge protectors.


    the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
    have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
    sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more
    variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
    they will be designed to protect against that.

    No, they are designed to make a profit. There is zero accountability for their "surge protector" claims, so they use the cheapest, most minimal components that will not protect anything. Lightning is the hardest surge to protect against as it has a
    hugely wide range of surge. I used to repair burglar alarms and one system had developed opens in the perimeter loop every place where the wire went through the same hole drilled in the joist as the AC wiring. There was enough voltage that an arc
    passed through both insulations and enough current to melt the perimeter wire in two forming little balls on the ends of the broken wires. The panel was fried of course. Any surge protector you can buy for $5 would have been destroyed and not protected
    equipment against damage.

    With no real way to compare surge protectors and no knowledge of what rating is required, the best bet is to disconnect the appliance.



    OK, so you want a surge protector but you won't buy anything called a
    "surge protector" because they are all useless.

    Most "surge" protectors are nearly
    worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
    stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
    started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
    of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
    started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
    code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
    power supply.

    Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
    dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything
    else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
    based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
    protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
    missing something here - your secret specifications.

    Sometimes it is very hard to discuss things with you because you ignore so much of what is provided. There is decades of history behind this. You are in no position to argue that cap dried up in an 8 month old microwave. Please just stop posting
    silly ideas and assuming others know nothing, such as the idea that you can buy "surge protectors" that are worth anything for just $10. They are not surge protectors, they are outlet strips.


    You told us your microwave broke. You didn't say it was 8 months old,
    or that you have "decades of history" (whatever that might mean). You
    said it broke, and you gave /zero/ information about why you leapt to
    the conclusion that it was a worthless surge protector. And /I/ am the
    one being difficult for asking questions!


    So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
    in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.

    I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
    electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
    I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
    the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.

    Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
    egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck
    integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or
    whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
    Problem solved.

    Ok, I think we are done here. If you don't even know what sort of mechanical timer I'm talking about, you must live in a cave. Didn't I post links?


    You posted one link (as far as I noticed) to a mechanical timer. You've
    given no clear indication as to why you want it to be /mechanical/.


    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
    UPS, which will have surge protection.

    Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
    appliances, TV, microwave,...
    Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
    never heard them considered "computer equipment".

    People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
    If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
    power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea. >>> I was told even the refrigerator has
    crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
    here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
    cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

    Yes, we are done here.


    We are seeing the usual pattern for your posts looking for information
    or help. You give a fraction of the information people might find
    useful, with little detail and even less idea about why you want one
    solution and reject others. Then you jump and people who try to help,
    and argue with them or insult them for failing to read your mind.

    It's a good job posters in this group either have memories like
    goldfish, or an obsessive need to try to help people, or you'd get no
    replies at all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to David Brown on Wed Mar 30 17:23:01 2022
    On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 11:44:51 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 30/03/2022 17:11, Rickster wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:39:25 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
    On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
    This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
    problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
    One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
    not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
    eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
    could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
    mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
    put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
    will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
    appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
    worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
    damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
    what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
    value is less than say, $5,000?


    I must be missing something.

    I agree with that.


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
    cheap.

    I don't agree with that.
    I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
    found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.

    I don't know

    Yes, that's my point. You can call these "surge protectors", but they have no rating and even if they have a rating, there's no reason to believe any numbers you read. They are worthless junk and are not surge protectors.


    the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
    have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
    sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more >> variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so >> they will be designed to protect against that.

    No, they are designed to make a profit. There is zero accountability for their "surge protector" claims, so they use the cheapest, most minimal components that will not protect anything. Lightning is the hardest surge to protect against as it has a
    hugely wide range of surge. I used to repair burglar alarms and one system had developed opens in the perimeter loop every place where the wire went through the same hole drilled in the joist as the AC wiring. There was enough voltage that an arc passed
    through both insulations and enough current to melt the perimeter wire in two forming little balls on the ends of the broken wires. The panel was fried of course. Any surge protector you can buy for $5 would have been destroyed and not protected
    equipment against damage.

    With no real way to compare surge protectors and no knowledge of what rating is required, the best bet is to disconnect the appliance.


    OK, so you want a surge protector but you won't buy anything called a
    "surge protector" because they are all useless.

    You said, $10. That's not a surge protector. That's an outlet strip regardless of what moniker they put on it.


    Most "surge" protectors are nearly
    worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
    stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
    started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
    of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
    started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
    code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
    power supply.

    Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
    dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything >> else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
    based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
    protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
    missing something here - your secret specifications.

    Sometimes it is very hard to discuss things with you because you ignore so much of what is provided. There is decades of history behind this. You are in no position to argue that cap dried up in an 8 month old microwave. Please just stop posting
    silly ideas and assuming others know nothing, such as the idea that you can buy "surge protectors" that are worth anything for just $10. They are not surge protectors, they are outlet strips.

    You told us your microwave broke. You didn't say it was 8 months old,
    or that you have "decades of history" (whatever that might mean). You
    said it broke, and you gave /zero/ information about why you leapt to
    the conclusion that it was a worthless surge protector. And /I/ am the
    one being difficult for asking questions!

    I don't know why you would assume the OP is an idiot and knows nothing about "surge protectors" that have been around for decades, posing as useful equipment, but actually being pretty much worthless. Because such surge events are normally very sporadic,
    people can buy them and think that their equipment has been protected for the last 10 years. In reality, there simply have been no surges that would damage the equipment in the first place.


    So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both >>>> in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.

    I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
    electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
    I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
    the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.

    Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
    egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck >> integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or
    whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
    Problem solved.

    Ok, I think we are done here. If you don't even know what sort of mechanical timer I'm talking about, you must live in a cave. Didn't I post links?

    You posted one link (as far as I noticed) to a mechanical timer. You've given no clear indication as to why you want it to be /mechanical/.

    I didn't think it was required to point out that an electronic timer would be subject to the same surges the electronic equipment is to be protected from. Isn't that very obvious??? If you saw the link to the mechanical timer, what is then unclear? I
    even explained why the electronic timer is less desirable, but you seem to have ignored that content.


    Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
    UPS, which will have surge protection.

    Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
    appliances, TV, microwave,...
    Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
    never heard them considered "computer equipment".

    People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns. >> If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
    power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea.
    I was told even the refrigerator has
    crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
    here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
    cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

    Yes, we are done here.

    We are seeing the usual pattern for your posts looking for information
    or help. You give a fraction of the information people might find
    useful, with little detail and even less idea about why you want one solution and reject others. Then you jump and people who try to help,
    and argue with them or insult them for failing to read your mind.

    I'm not jumping you, I'm explaining that your assumptions are obvious mistakes. Why do you not understand that an electronic timer would suffer the same damage as the electronic equipment being protected? Why do you insist on arguing about it when I
    tell you it needs to be mechanical?

    You, in particular, have a tendency to go off in strange directions, and make unreasonable assumptions. Like assuming I wanted to protect computer equipment when my OP said, "various electronics" and "appliances". I only mentioned computer equipment
    when I asked about typical protection because I've never met anyone who protected a microwave while computers are often protected.


    It's a good job posters in this group either have memories like
    goldfish, or an obsessive need to try to help people, or you'd get no replies at all.

    Ok, sorry to have bothered you, but at least you must have found this entertaining or you would not have posted so many times.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Rich S on Wed Mar 30 23:24:51 2022
    On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
    rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
    but very useful for some.


    Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are under $100 USD.
    They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
    I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough? "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection!" Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
    "As much as you can afford, of course!"

    Excellent information on surges and surge protection is <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>
    "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
    for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
    communication circuits" published by the IEEE. (And in a near miracle it
    is free.) Some of the information is specific to the US.

    Starting pg 25 talks about joule rating. In the US there is no
    definition for a suppressor joule rating. As a result some manufacturers
    use a deceptive rating which puts honest manufacturers at a
    disadvantage, so some manufacturers do not provide a joule rating.

    The max surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, US,
    residential, typical overhead urban distribution, is 10kA per service
    wire. Pg 18 has recommendations for service panel protection. (also see
    joules that can make it to a plug-in suppressor elsewhere)

    When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
    set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
    voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (The
    same thing happens at a service panel suppressor, which needs voltage
    clamps on incoming signal wires adjacent.)


    I assume the manufacturers just use whatever the device (MOV) inside is rated for.
    I would look for a model that offers lifetime warranty, insurance and support.

    For Industrial grade protection, I'd step up to a UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
    with integrated surge protection. A better choice, also because it will manage both long-term
    high- and low-line voltage situations.

    UPSs that are not always on-line don't themselves provide surge
    protection other than the separate circuit. Overvoltage (IEEE guide pg
    15) can rapidly destroy surge suppressors.

    Subcategorized by "VA" (~ continuous power deliverable).
    So, what to buy, is closer to being answerable for average person, if they know about
    how much power
    their PC equipment is drawing. Then I would derate, double that total when shopping
    for the UPS.

    cheers, RS






    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Rickster on Wed Mar 30 23:28:47 2022
    On 3/29/2022 2:22 PM, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
    strips are common and cheap.

    I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a
    few tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.


    The IEEE guide, cited elsewhere, does not indicate that "Most 'surge' protectors are nearly worthless". Buy one from a competent company. And
    UL listed provides at least a minimum floor.

    MOVs fail by the voltage at which they start to conduct lowering after
    hits totaling at least the joule rating to the source voltage, and the
    MOV goes into thermal runaway. All UL listed suppressors should have a disconnect for failing MOVs that operates at least partly on heat.
    Recent UL listed suppressors disconnect the connected load with the MOVs
    (or inform you that they don't). UL listed suppressor? Do you know it
    failed? Was there a surge? Is there a reason to believe the microwave
    didn't just fail (fairly new is not a guarantee)?

    Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
    energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Wed Mar 30 23:34:05 2022
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    The NIST surge expert investigated how much energy can reach MOVs in a
    plug-in suppressor (with no service panel suppressor). Branch circuits
    were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10kA
    (which is the maximum probable surge). The maximum energy was a
    surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less.
    Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. (This
    is US, and there are a couple features that may be different. One is the neutral-ground bond in services. The other is arc-over described below.)

    There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V
    there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After
    the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps
    most of the incoming surge energy to earth. (This would also limit the
    voltage across switch contacts.)

    The second reason is the impedance of the branch circuit wiring. A surge
    is a very short event. That means the current components are relatively
    high frequency. That means the wire inductance is more important than
    the resistance. The branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current
    to the MOVs, which greatly limits the energy that can make it to the MOVs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to bud-- on Thu Mar 31 09:51:56 2022
    On 31/03/2022 06:34, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC.  Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    They last until they encounter a surge that is close to or above their tolerance. They don't always work though. I have known industrial grade
    surge suppression for mainframe terminals save itself by allowing the
    much more expensive I/O drivers on cards in the terminal adapter to fry.

    It was a fairly impressive looking thing big chunk of well earthed
    copper but against the direct hit to the building strike which entered
    and destroyed the phone wiring it made not one jot of difference.

    The NIST surge expert investigated how much energy can reach MOVs in a plug-in suppressor (with no service panel suppressor). Branch circuits
    were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10kA (which is the maximum probable surge). The maximum energy was a
    surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. (This
    is US, and there are a couple features that may be different. One is the neutral-ground bond in services. The other is arc-over described below.)

    There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V
    there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After
    the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps
    most of the incoming surge energy to earth. (This would also limit the voltage across switch contacts.)

    The second reason is the impedance of the branch circuit wiring. A surge
    is a very short event. That means the current components are relatively
    high frequency. That means the wire inductance is more important than
    the resistance. The branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current
    to the MOVs, which greatly limits the energy that can make it to the MOVs.

    I'd say they mostly do work, but you can still get black swan events
    where they manage not to stop damage to the things that they are
    supposed to protect. I have surge protection on my kit...

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Mar 31 11:29:58 2022
    Martin Brown wrote:
    On 31/03/2022 06:34, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as >>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    They last until they encounter a surge that is close to or above their tolerance. They don't always work though. I have known industrial grade
    surge suppression for mainframe terminals save itself by allowing the
    much more expensive I/O drivers on cards in the terminal adapter to fry.

    It was a fairly impressive looking thing big chunk of well earthed
    copper but against the direct hit to the building strike which entered
    and destroyed the phone wiring it made not one jot of difference.


    Respect for the designers of those mountaintop radio relays that
    get hit by lightning all the time and keep working nevertheless.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu Mar 31 11:28:36 2022
    On 31/03/2022 10:29, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
    Martin Brown wrote:
    On 31/03/2022 06:34, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC.  Or one of those surge suppressor bars
    (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals >>>> get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    They last until they encounter a surge that is close to or above their
    tolerance. They don't always work though. I have known industrial
    grade surge suppression for mainframe terminals save itself by
    allowing the much more expensive I/O drivers on cards in the terminal
    adapter to fry.

    It was a fairly impressive looking thing big chunk of well earthed
    copper but against the direct hit to the building strike which entered
    and destroyed the phone wiring it made not one jot of difference.


    Respect for the designers of those mountaintop radio relays that
    get hit by lightning all the time and keep working nevertheless.

    Indeed! I used to live within sight of such a tall mast for atmospheric research in Tsukuba. One day it took a direct hit from a major summer thunderstorm while I was watching. It was just like the firing of the
    Death Star in Starwars with three bolts from clouds above it joining to
    one and crashing down onto the top. It was still OK afterwards.

    Knocked out for just a couple of seconds but otherwise OK.

    I narrowly missed seeing ball lightning once - it had the temerity to
    appear in a university physics department and attacked the photocopier.

    Shareable direct link to short article in Nature "Ball of Fire?": https://rdcu.be/cKhqY

    Actual article in Nature (subscribers only) www.nature.com/articles/298702b0.epdf

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to bud-- on Thu Mar 31 14:25:06 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
    bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
    internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.

    Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
    their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
    work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any "safety features").

    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

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  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bud-- on Thu Mar 31 13:31:26 2022
    On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 2:22 PM, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
    strips are common and cheap.

    I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few
    tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.

    The IEEE guide, cited elsewhere, does not indicate that "Most 'surge' protectors are nearly worthless". Buy one from a competent company. And
    UL listed provides at least a minimum floor.

    MOVs fail by the voltage at which they start to conduct lowering after
    hits totaling at least the joule rating to the source voltage, and the
    MOV goes into thermal runaway. All UL listed suppressors should have a disconnect for failing MOVs that operates at least partly on heat.
    Recent UL listed suppressors disconnect the connected load with the MOVs
    (or inform you that they don't). UL listed suppressor? Do you know it failed? Was there a surge? Is there a reason to believe the microwave
    didn't just fail (fairly new is not a guarantee)?

    There are no guarantees in life, or even in death, except that it will happen someday.
    There's no guarantees at all for birth, most of which never happen.


    Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).

    The $10 surge protectors come with warranties, including coverage of the connected equipment. Need I say more?

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to bud-- on Thu Mar 31 13:28:17 2022
    On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:25:31 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
    Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
    rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
    but very useful for some.

    Sorry, I'm not familiar with lightning rod "systems". I do know that lightning rods won't do diddly in this case because they reduce damage to structures from a direct lightning strike, while the typical damage to electronics is from the magnetic field
    of a strike inducing very large currents in exterior conductors connected to equipment. Are you referring to something to prevent the surge from an external line from getting into the house? They exist, but are very, very expensive. They also don't
    protect equipment inside the house from a very close lightning strike (such as to the lightning rod) from inducing currents directly in the house.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Mar 31 22:56:52 2022
    On 3/31/2022 2:31 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:

    Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are
    possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
    energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).

    The $10 surge protectors come with warranties, including coverage of the connected equipment. Need I say more?


    I have never seen a suppressor with warranty for $10.

    UL listed plug-in suppressors are reliable (and probably not $10 without
    a warranty).

    Surge protection is not rocket science. Businesses, for instance in
    Florida, do not shut down for thunderstorms. Highly unlikely residents
    of Florida haven't figured out how to protect their equipment. Read the
    IEEE guide

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Ricky on Thu Mar 31 22:53:02 2022
    On 3/31/2022 2:28 PM, Ricky wrote:
    On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:25:31 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
    rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
    but very useful for some.

    Sorry, I'm not familiar with lightning rod "systems".

    Any lightning rod installation, except a barn, will be a "system". In
    the US the relevant standard is NFPA 780. The system will include a
    service panel surge suppressor (the IEEE guide says the minimum rating
    is 40kA). Also includes features like metal within 6 ft. of rod wiring
    and down conductors may need to be bonded to the conductors. That is
    because of the high voltage drop at earthing electrodes and in the
    inductance of the conductors may result in voltages that will flash
    across 6 ft.

    I do know that lightning rods won't do diddly in this case because they reduce damage to structures from a direct lightning strike, while the typical damage to electronics is from the magnetic field of a strike inducing very large currents in exterior
    conductors connected to equipment. Are you referring to something to prevent the surge from an external line from getting into the house? They exist, but are very, very expensive.

    Most damaging after a direct strike is surges coming in on power and
    signal wires.

    The NIST surge expert investigated how much energy can enter a residence
    from a near strike. The strike was 200kA to the distribution wire at the
    top of a utility pole adjacent to a house with typical urban overhead distribution. This is a very near strike. And only 5% of strikes are
    stronger. For practical purposes this is a worst case. The current was
    10kA per service wire (mentioned yesterday, and also in the IEEE guide). Service panel surge suppressors are readily available with ratings far
    larger. The IEEE guide suggests a rating (per wire) of 20kA to 70kA
    unless in a high lightning area. I would not call these suppressors
    "very expensive". Protection is also needed for incoming signal wires.

    They also don't protect equipment inside the house from a very close lightning strike (such as to the lightning rod) from inducing currents directly in the house.


    A near strike can induce high voltages between power and signal wires
    with the loop formed by the wires acting as a loop antenna. It is a case
    where service entrance suppressors are not complete protection. But
    plug-in suppressors, with all wires going through the suppressor,
    provide protection.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Thu Mar 31 23:02:11 2022
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as >>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
    get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
    bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
    internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.

    Is not what I have read anywhere.

    And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
    plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
    rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is surprisingly small.


    Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
    their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
    work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any "safety features").

    As I wrote yesterday, a UL listed suppressor is likely to not work as a
    plug strip if the MOVs fail (IEEE guide pg. 38).


    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
    wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to bud-- on Fri Apr 1 09:46:24 2022
    On 31/03/2022 06:24, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including
    risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
    rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
    but very useful for some.

    The building I was in had proper external lightning protection but it
    didn't make that much difference. Afterwards the conductor was the funny
    colour that copper goes after being at red heat but the strike still
    managed to enter the building and vapourise (parts of) the internal
    phone wiring.

    I suspect it was ground currents and magnetic coupling loops of cable
    between terminals and mains wiring that took out the line drivers.
    Whatever it was the expensive surge protection kit saved itself by
    letting the more expensive IO driver boards in the terminal concentrator
    get fried.

    The max surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, US,
    residential, typical overhead urban distribution, is 10kA per service
    wire. Pg 18 has recommendations for service panel protection. (also see joules that can make it to a plug-in suppressor elsewhere)

    UK has spark gaps on the local mains down transformers so that anything
    much over 150kV on a nominally 33kV line will arc over on the HT side.
    The arc looks like a dead short and takes out the breakers.

    Nothing can help you if lightning strikes an overhead local mains line
    the injection of current has to go somewhere and fast.

    When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
    set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
    voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (The
    same thing happens at a service panel suppressor, which needs voltage
    clamps on incoming signal wires adjacent.)

    The thing about the suppressor protection is that it needs to be
    connected to a very good earth with a chunky conductor and that
    condition isn't always met. Particularly in summer after a long dry spell.


    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to bud-- on Fri Apr 1 09:50:24 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
    wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.

    So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
    are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
    Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
    package:

    "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
    eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
    after any over-voltage spike event[...]"

    Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
    at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
    that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
    either.


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    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Fri Apr 1 05:27:04 2022
    On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:50:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
    So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
    are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed). Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
    package:

    "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
    after any over-voltage spike event[...]"

    Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
    at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
    that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
    either.

    That's the point. It's like the scene in Tommy Boy, where Tommy is trying to sell his line of brake pads to the retailer who wants to see a guarantee on the box as a sign of quality. Tommy says he can take a crap in the box and put a guarantee on the
    side. The guarantees are as much BS as the surge suppression on the cheap units. I'm sure they will stand behind their product if you can meet every single part of the requirements. How are you going to do that?

    They took a crap in the box and slapped a guarantee on it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEB7WbTTlu4

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Apr 1 15:33:24 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:50:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
    wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
    So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
    are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
    Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
    package:

    "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
    over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
    eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
    after any over-voltage spike event[...]"

    Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
    at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
    that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
    either.

    That's the point. It's like the scene in Tommy Boy, where Tommy is

    No it's not. That scene the buyer is saying he won't buy the Callahan
    brake pads because he doesn't get a guarantee on the box (guarantee on
    the box makes ya feel warm and fuzzy inside, y'know?).

    The only reason I brought up the Belkin "warranty" is that one of the requirements therein is that the surge protector is within its "service
    life" (in the case of the particular product I had to hand - 36 months
    from date of purchase).

    Conversely, the APC ones I have (for $5-10 more) have a little "I'm
    still working" indicator. Which, apparently can go out while still
    allowing plugged in devices to function -- the wording is such that
    while they do have a "fail safe" in the event of catastrophic events,
    the indicator will go out any time the device can no longer provide
    100% protection.

    In either event -- catastrophic event cutout, indicator going dark, or
    the simple passage of time -- the devices have a finite length to their expected service life. Time is, of course, the most restrictive thing
    there, but honestly, the terms of those connected device warranties
    always give me the idea that (as a regular consumer), you're not
    actually ever going to get reimbursed for stuff plugged into the surge protector.

    Then again, I've never had to try invoking one of those clauses
    either...


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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ricky@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Fri Apr 1 10:02:17 2022
    On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:33:32 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512
    Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:50:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal >> > wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
    So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that >> are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed). >> Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
    package:

    "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
    over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
    eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
    after any over-voltage spike event[...]"

    Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but >> at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
    that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
    either.

    That's the point. It's like the scene in Tommy Boy, where Tommy is
    No it's not. That scene the buyer is saying he won't buy the Callahan
    brake pads because he doesn't get a guarantee on the box (guarantee on
    the box makes ya feel warm and fuzzy inside, y'know?).

    The only reason I brought up the Belkin "warranty" is that one of the requirements therein is that the surge protector is within its "service life" (in the case of the particular product I had to hand - 36 months
    from date of purchase).

    Conversely, the APC ones I have (for $5-10 more) have a little "I'm
    still working" indicator. Which, apparently can go out while still
    allowing plugged in devices to function -- the wording is such that
    while they do have a "fail safe" in the event of catastrophic events,
    the indicator will go out any time the device can no longer provide
    100% protection.

    There is no 100% protection. They protect against some level of surge, period. More than that surge and your equipment goes "poof". You are left with a worthless warranty as they don't warrant your equipment will not be damaged by surges over their
    threshold.


    In either event -- catastrophic event cutout, indicator going dark, or
    the simple passage of time -- the devices have a finite length to their expected service life. Time is, of course, the most restrictive thing
    there, but honestly, the terms of those connected device warranties
    always give me the idea that (as a regular consumer), you're not
    actually ever going to get reimbursed for stuff plugged into the surge protector.

    Then again, I've never had to try invoking one of those clauses
    either...

    Exactly! How may reimbursements are they going to afford selling $15 outlet strips with a $10k warranty? None! They are never going to pay out because they will find some reason you don't qualify. The warranty on the box does give you a warm, fuzzy
    feeling inside though, doesn't it? So I guess it *is* the same, eh?

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Ricky on Fri Apr 1 23:46:20 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Ricky wrote:
    On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:33:32 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    Conversely, the APC ones I have (for $5-10 more) have a little "I'm
    still working" indicator. Which, apparently can go out while still
    allowing plugged in devices to function -- the wording is such that
    while they do have a "fail safe" in the event of catastrophic events,
    the indicator will go out any time the device can no longer provide
    100% protection.

    There is no 100% protection. They protect against some level of
    surge, period. More than that surge and your equipment goes "poof".
    You are left with a worthless warranty as they don't warrant your
    equipment will not be damaged by surges over their threshold.

    Yeah, I know. That's APC's wording in their product insert.


    In either event -- catastrophic event cutout, indicator going dark, or
    the simple passage of time -- the devices have a finite length to their
    expected service life. Time is, of course, the most restrictive thing
    there, but honestly, the terms of those connected device warranties
    always give me the idea that (as a regular consumer), you're not
    actually ever going to get reimbursed for stuff plugged into the surge
    protector.

    Then again, I've never had to try invoking one of those clauses
    either...

    Exactly! How may reimbursements are they going to afford selling $15
    outlet strips with a $10k warranty? None! They are never going to
    pay out because they will find some reason you don't qualify. The
    warranty on the box does give you a warm, fuzzy feeling inside though, doesn't it?

    No. I know it's a farce. But I guess if it makes you feel better to
    pretend I bought the $15 thing with the "feelgood box art" instead of
    the $20 one with the "feelgood LED", go right ahead.


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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Apr 1 22:57:14 2022
    On 4/1/2022 2:46 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 31/03/2022 06:24, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
    First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

    Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including
    risk, cost accrued if out of service)

    Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

    Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
    rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
    but very useful for some.

    The building I was in had proper external lightning protection but it
    didn't make that much difference. Afterwards the conductor was the funny colour that copper goes after being at red heat but the strike still
    managed to enter the building and vapourise (parts of) the internal
    phone wiring.

    I suspect it was ground currents and magnetic coupling loops of cable
    between terminals and mains wiring that took out the line drivers.
    Whatever it was the expensive surge protection kit saved itself by
    letting the more expensive IO driver boards in the terminal concentrator
    get fried.

    Not having seen how the building was protected....

    You can get over 100,000A in a strike, but the duration is microseconds.
    Hard to imagine in the US, with at least 2 large gauge downconductors to earthing systems the wires would get hot enough to discolor.


    The max surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, US,
    residential, typical overhead urban distribution, is 10kA per service
    wire. Pg 18 has recommendations for service panel protection. (also
    see joules that can make it to a plug-in suppressor elsewhere)

    UK has spark gaps on the local mains down transformers so that anything
    much over 150kV on a nominally 33kV line will arc over on the HT side.
    The arc looks like a dead short and takes out the breakers.

    Sound like fun to watch. But lightning arresters on the primary protect transformers. They don't provide much protection to buildings.


    Nothing can help you if lightning strikes an overhead local mains line
    the injection of current has to go somewhere and fast.

    "Nothing can help you"? I just explained what can help you.
    A recognized expert in a published paper found that a 200,000A strike to
    the primary wire on a utility pole adjacent to a building with typical
    overhead urban distribution results in 10kA surges on the power service
    wires to the building. Service panel suppressors, with far higher
    ratings, limit the voltage from the service wires to the service
    "ground". The "ground" in the US is connected to earthing electrode(s),
    which is where most of the energy to the building goes.


    When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to
    a set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
    voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (The
    same thing happens at a service panel suppressor, which needs voltage
    clamps on incoming signal wires adjacent.)

    The thing about the suppressor protection is that it needs to be
    connected to a very good earth with a chunky conductor and that
    condition isn't always met. Particularly in summer after a long dry spell.

    Plug-in suppressors do not protect primarily by earthing a surge. They
    can't - the impedance of the wires is too high. The ground potential at
    the suppressor can rise thousands of volts above the ground potential at
    the service entrance "ground", described in the IEEE guide pg 30-35. The
    guide explains, starting pg 35, that plug-in suppressors work primarily
    by limiting the voltage on all wires, power and signal, to the ground at
    the suppressor. The voltage between wires going to the protected
    equipment is safe for the protected equipment (as I wrote above).

    The guide, on pg 28, looks at the ground potential rise of the "ground"
    at the service (specifically signal, but it the same for power). The
    building "ground" can rise, in this example 250,000V, above earth
    potential distant from the building (that would cause arcing across the
    earth from the ground rod away). Much of the protection, again, is that
    service panel suppressors and signal entry protectors limit the voltage
    to the ground at the panel. The voltage between wires inside the
    building is generally safe for the connected equipment (as I wrote
    above). (One exception is pg 33, another - induced pick up from a near
    strike to wire loop in a previous post.)

    Protection likely does not primarily involve earthing the surge.

    Read the IEEE surge guide - written for technical people <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Fri Apr 1 23:00:59 2022
    On 4/1/2022 3:50 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
    wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.

    So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
    are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
    Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
    package:

    "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
    after any over-voltage spike event[...]"

    Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
    at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
    that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
    either.


    I haven't looked at Belkin for a long time.

    I looked at one suppressor (at Belkin site) with the same 3 year
    language. It also said "and a lifetime $75,000 Connected Equipment
    Warranty." IMHO if sued (could be small claims court here) Belkin would
    have trouble denying coverage. One problem with a surge warranty is
    people think any damage with an unknown cause, like to a microwave, is
    from a surge.

    I couldn't find warranties at Belkin, or user manuals. UL wording I saw
    did not clearly say suppressors were UL LISTED - tested BY UL to UL1449.
    Belkin seems to have branched out into other products.

    From a previous post, from published research, with up to 10kA surge on
    power wires, and no suppressor a the service, the maximum energy
    absorbed by a MOV on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was
    1 joule or less. The Belkin suppressor I looked at had a rating of 1045J.

    Companies in high lightning areas of Florida do not move to Nevada
    because of thunderstorm damage. Principles of protection are well
    understood. Five engineers experienced in surge protection wrote the
    IEEE surge guide, which details the base principles. The guide says
    plug-in suppressors are effective and says how to use them. Also lots of information on other protection elements.

    Read the IEEE surge guide
    <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Sat Apr 2 17:31:07 2022
    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 10:50:55 AM UTC-7, Rickster wrote:
    ...The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use.

    The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector...
    but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

    That 'computer equipment' has sacrificial parts, and the fancy PC only needs a $50 replacement power
    brick when the surges kill it. The third solution is to plan, somewhat, for the larger surges by making
    the failure modes graceful and repairable.

    A friend in an urban home got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
    surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.

    Glad somebody brought up ferroresonant power supplies.

    Simple, reliable, but terribly expensive and inefficient. I need to move a 2000VA unit soon. The garbage from a line they will block is impressive.
    You still have problems is you have devices connected by other means to
    other power sources or places. This can be ethernet, and especially
    telecom lines.

    Isolation transformers work pretty good too, but don't help during a
    brown-out or with regulation issues if that's an key issue.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Sat Apr 2 15:15:58 2022
    On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    A friend [in a rural home] got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
    surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.

    Glad somebody brought up ferroresonant power supplies.

    Simple, reliable, but terribly expensive and inefficient.

    Yeah; they claim 85% efficient, BUT that means the 400VA unit wasted 60W
    even when lightly loaded.

    I need to move a
    2000VA unit soon.

    You'll want a cart; that's gonna be circa 100 pounds of steel and copper.

    The garbage from a line they will block is impressive.

    Yeah. Mass does good that way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Ricky on Sun Apr 3 18:44:10 2022
    Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 2:22 PM, Rickster wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


    Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
    strips are common and cheap.

    I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a
    few tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.

    The IEEE guide, cited elsewhere, does not indicate that "Most 'surge'
    protectors are nearly worthless". Buy one from a competent company. And
    UL listed provides at least a minimum floor.

    MOVs fail by the voltage at which they start to conduct lowering after
    hits totaling at least the joule rating to the source voltage, and the
    MOV goes into thermal runaway. All UL listed suppressors should have a
    disconnect for failing MOVs that operates at least partly on heat.
    Recent UL listed suppressors disconnect the connected load with the MOVs
    (or inform you that they don't). UL listed suppressor? Do you know it
    failed? Was there a surge? Is there a reason to believe the microwave
    didn't just fail (fairly new is not a guarantee)?

    There are no guarantees in life, or even in death, except that it will happen someday.
    There's no guarantees at all for birth, most of which never happen.


    Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are
    possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
    energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).

    The $10 surge protectors come with warranties, including coverage of the connected equipment. Need I say more?

    lol, I'd love to see the details of a $25k damage claim against a $10
    power strip, with photo of the payout check.

    There's a reason they cost $10 and real surge/transient protection costs
    way more.

    In the continental US, you can get surge arrestors to install at a home
    service entrance, even at home depot now. Stuff like this used to be hard
    to get, even at a supply house, with a special order. If you have
    electronics damaged, it's a good $100 buy. Strings of power strips, even without surges are dangerous anyways. I've seen dozens of them with burned
    or melted receptables, even from moderate loads.

    tripp-lite mostly produces garbage these days, but the Isobar grey power
    strip devices are still OK. I have never seen on fail past the neon light
    on the power switch dying after many years. They're about the safest bet
    for permanent use for a temporary power strip.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Sun Apr 3 18:33:08 2022
    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    A friend [in a rural home] got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
    surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it. >>
    Glad somebody brought up ferroresonant power supplies.

    Simple, reliable, but terribly expensive and inefficient.

    Yeah; they claim 85% efficient, BUT that means the 400VA unit wasted 60W
    even when lightly loaded.

    That number is only at full load. Since they run at saturation in one leg
    at all times, the amount of heat they generate is impressive, even at no
    usable load. I've never tossed a scope on the resonant section with the
    high voltage capacitors, but there has to be square waves in there
    somewhere, yet the output is a perfect sine wave. Fascinating stuff, up
    there with magnetic amplifiers and saturable chokes for controlling
    lighting or heating loads.

    I need to move a
    2000VA unit soon.

    You'll want a cart; that's gonna be circa 100 pounds of steel and copper.

    The garbage from a line they will block is impressive.

    Yeah. Mass does good that way.

    Never thought of it that way, but they sure store some energy in the
    magnetics, sort of like synchronous AC flyweel.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to bud-- on Sun Apr 3 19:03:42 2022
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as >>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals >>>> get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
    bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
    internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.

    Is not what I have read anywhere.

    And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is surprisingly small.

    MOVs absolutely have a finite life. It's in the datasheets and the prime
    reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail,
    they short and catch on fire.

    Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and
    even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
    working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.

    A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how
    stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
    earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old.
    You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
    up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
    would have survived the event if they were not connected.

    There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
    telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
    problems.

    There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
    ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
    lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.

    Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
    their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
    work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any
    "safety features").

    As I wrote yesterday, a UL listed suppressor is likely to not work as a
    plug strip if the MOVs fail (IEEE guide pg. 38).


    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
    wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Sun Apr 3 21:49:14 2022
    On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as >>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals >>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet >>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
    internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.

    Is not what I have read anywhere.

    And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
    plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
    rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
    yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
    surprisingly small.

    MOVs absolutely have a finite life.

    As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
    expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
    of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
    or less.

    The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
    defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
    might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
    are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
    give a much longer life.

    The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.

    As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
    protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
    they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).

    And the NIST surge expert has written:
    "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
    overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".

    It's in the datasheets and the prime
    reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail, they short and catch on fire.

    Among the UL tests is that suppressors fail safely (thermal fuses).


    Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
    working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.

    A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
    earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old. You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
    up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
    would have survived the event if they were not connected.

    As I wrote in one of my first posts:
    "When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
    set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
    voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor." (An
    example (pg 31f) shows protection from a surge entering on the cable
    service.) If signal wires do not go through the suppressor, the
    suppressor can actually cause damage,

    It is one of the major points made in the IEEE surge guide (for those
    who can read).


    There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
    telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
    problems.

    Because it is a major cause of damage avoiding different potentials is a
    major subject of the IEEE guide.

    For science based information on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>


    There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.

    So what?


    Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
    their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
    work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any >>> "safety features").

    As I wrote yesterday, a UL listed suppressor is likely to not work as a
    plug strip if the MOVs fail (IEEE guide pg. 38).


    Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
    actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
    break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.


    The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
    ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
    wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to bud-- on Mon Apr 4 06:04:22 2022
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as >>>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals >>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet >>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
    internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges. >>>
    Is not what I have read anywhere.

    And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
    plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
    rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained >>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
    surprisingly small.

    MOVs absolutely have a finite life.

    As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
    expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
    of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
    or less.

    I have yet to see any commercial surge supressors with a history of
    working well slap any NIST reference on the sell sheet. Nobody cares about
    your random NIST paper from 1988.

    The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
    defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
    might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
    are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
    give a much longer life.

    The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.

    I'd love to see that thing try to deal with 1045J.

    As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
    protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
    they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).

    Why are you mixing and matching UL listings, with no numbers or categories
    with IEEE guides? This makes no sense.

    And the NIST surge expert has written:
    "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
    overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".

    Whatever this claim is, it sure sounds stupid. I'd love to hear more about distribution and secondary wires and how to cross them for microseconds, harmlessly.

    It's in the datasheets and the prime
    reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail, >> they short and catch on fire.

    Among the UL tests is that suppressors fail safely (thermal fuses).

    Can you cite the NIST paper or IEEE publications used in this UL test?

    Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and
    even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
    working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.

    A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how
    stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
    earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old. >> You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
    up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
    would have survived the event if they were not connected.

    As I wrote in one of my first posts:
    "When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
    set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
    voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor." (An
    example (pg 31f) shows protection from a surge entering on the cable service.) If signal wires do not go through the suppressor, the
    suppressor can actually cause damage,

    It is one of the major points made in the IEEE surge guide (for those
    who can read).


    There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
    telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at >> different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
    problems.

    Because it is a major cause of damage avoiding different potentials is a major subject of the IEEE guide.

    For science based information on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>


    There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
    ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
    lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.

    So what?

    It sounds like you missed the IEEE and NIST publications on ground loops. Better head back to the library.

    [the rest of the parroted garbage about unspecificed UL tests removed]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Mon Apr 4 18:25:13 2022
    On 4/4/2022 12:04 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals >>>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet >>>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from >>>>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges. >>>>
    Is not what I have read anywhere.

    And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
    plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge >>>> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained >>>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
    surprisingly small.

    MOVs absolutely have a finite life.

    As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
    expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
    of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in
    suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
    or less.

    I have yet to see any commercial surge supressors with a history of
    working well slap any NIST reference on the sell sheet. Nobody cares about your random NIST paper from 1988.

    The NIST surge expert was François Martzloff. I have read at least 40
    papers written by, or partly by Martzloff. At least half were published
    by the IEEE. You may not have heard of it. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Electrical_and_Electronics_Engineers>
    The IEEE surge guide was also published by the IEEE. The IEEE guide
    credits Martzloff (pg iv).

    Martzloff papers have also been published by the IEC <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Electrotechnical_Commission>
    and many others.

    I have no idea what the "random NIST paper from 1988" is.

    I am interested in reading your published papers.


    The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
    defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much
    smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
    might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
    are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
    give a much longer life.

    The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.

    I'd love to see that thing try to deal with 1045J.

    As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
    protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
    they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).

    Why are you mixing and matching UL listings, with no numbers or categories with IEEE guides? This makes no sense.

    With minimal reading ability you would see that the IEEE guide refers to
    the UL standard.

    And you may not be familiar with referencing different sources (as is
    done in footnotes).

    The UL standard for surge protection is UL1449, as I have written. I am
    sure that will be very helpful to you.


    And the NIST surge expert has written:
    "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary
    overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
    overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle
    thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are
    rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".

    Whatever this claim is, it sure sounds stupid. I'd love to hear more about distribution and secondary wires and how to cross them for microseconds, harmlessly.

    With minimal reading ability you would have understood primary and
    secondary wires were not crossed for microseconds. That is the whole
    point of TOV.


    It's in the datasheets and the prime
    reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail, >>> they short and catch on fire.

    Among the UL tests is that suppressors fail safely (thermal fuses).

    Can you cite the NIST paper or IEEE publications used in this UL test?

    I have not written about any NIST papers.

    UL test procedures do not cite NIST or IEEE publications.

    (Not that the question makes any sense anyway.)


    Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and >>> even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
    working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.

    A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how >>> stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
    earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old. >>> You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows >>> up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
    would have survived the event if they were not connected.

    As I wrote in one of my first posts:
    "When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
    set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
    voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor." (An
    example (pg 31f) shows protection from a surge entering on the cable
    service.) If signal wires do not go through the suppressor, the
    suppressor can actually cause damage,

    It is one of the major points made in the IEEE surge guide (for those
    who can read).


    There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
    telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at >>> different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
    problems.

    Because it is a major cause of damage avoiding different potentials is a
    major subject of the IEEE guide.

    For science based information on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide >> <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>


    There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
    ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
    lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.

    So what?

    It sounds like you missed the IEEE and NIST publications on ground loops. Better head back to the library.

    A non-answer.
    Small currents to earthing electrodes do not cause surges. Surges,
    thousands of amps, can cause thousands of volts between an electrical
    system "ground" and earth 40 ft. from the earthing electrode.


    [the rest of the parroted garbage about unspecificed UL tests removed]

    You are skilled at posts saying nothing.

    For real science on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to bud-- on Wed Apr 6 18:04:49 2022
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 4/4/2022 12:04 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
    On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    bud-- wrote:
    On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:

    A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
    you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals >>>>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).


    I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

    My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet >>>>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from >>>>>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges. >>>>>
    Is not what I have read anywhere.

    And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
    plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge >>>>> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained >>>>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
    surprisingly small.

    MOVs absolutely have a finite life.

    As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
    expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability >>> of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in
    suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule >>> or less.

    I have yet to see any commercial surge supressors with a history of
    working well slap any NIST reference on the sell sheet. Nobody cares about >> your random NIST paper from 1988.

    The NIST surge expert was Fran??ois Martzloff. I have read at least 40
    papers written by, or partly by Martzloff. At least half were published
    by the IEEE. You may not have heard of it. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Electrical_and_Electronics_Engineers>
    The IEEE surge guide was also published by the IEEE. The IEEE guide
    credits Martzloff (pg iv).

    Martzloff papers have also been published by the IEC <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Electrotechnical_Commission>
    and many others.

    I have no idea what the "random NIST paper from 1988" is.

    I am interested in reading your published papers.

    I don't publish papers, I solve real problems. Some of my sources include
    the designer of surge supressors for commercial use, including remote
    towers for radio relays. I trust him and his decades of real experience
    over martzloff and his recycled book reports. The products he designed are still in production by emerson electric.

    The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
    defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much
    smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
    might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
    are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
    give a much longer life.

    The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.

    I'd love to see that thing try to deal with 1045J.

    As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
    protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that >>> they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).

    Why are you mixing and matching UL listings, with no numbers or categories >> with IEEE guides? This makes no sense.

    With minimal reading ability you would see that the IEEE guide refers to
    the UL standard.

    So we're supposed to chase after IEEE guide to UL standards which you use
    in place of the UL standard itself? I can sort of understand why ground
    loops just don't register with you at all.

    And you may not be familiar with referencing different sources (as is
    done in footnotes).

    The UL standard for surge protection is UL1449, as I have written. I am
    sure that will be very helpful to you.


    And the NIST surge expert has written:
    "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary
    overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
    overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle >>> thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are >>> rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".

    Whatever this claim is, it sure sounds stupid. I'd love to hear more about >> distribution and secondary wires and how to cross them for microseconds,
    harmlessly.

    With minimal reading ability you would have understood primary and
    secondary wires were not crossed for microseconds. That is the whole
    point of TOV.

    So dollar sure surge arrestors work great, but only in improbable
    scenarios?

    [garbage trimmed]

    Your academic, delusional world of UL stickers and mass produced
    publications don't take into account the real world and how things
    actually work.

    The reality is all a UL sticker on a power strip means is somebody faked
    it, or somebody payed a fee. Testing of most products isn't even needed.

    Nobody has your back when a dollar store power strip catches on fire.
    Atrocious products like christmas tree light can carry a UL tag. It
    doesn't make them safe or fault-proof by any measure.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Wed Apr 6 13:34:51 2022
    On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

    So dollar sure surge arrestors work great, but only in improbable
    scenarios?

    'dollar' isn't the important quality in a surge arrestor. A
    burned-out spark plug is an excellent surge arrestor, albeit somewhat
    messy, and you can have some of mine for a dime.

    Your academic, delusional world of UL stickers and mass produced
    publications don't take into account the real world and how things
    actually work.

    That's just snark; academics aside, UL certification is backed by insurance companies (the "U" stands for 'Underwriters') who are completely grounded in reality. Their reality doesn't require, however, that all devices survive lightning
    strikes and function for decades.

    A product for market will always have some formal requirements for safety, and it is in a manufacturer's best interest to pay close attention to those, and only those,
    requirements. It's safety, not durability, that tops their list of concerns.

    That's a good thing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Thu Apr 7 22:37:33 2022
    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

    So dollar sure surge arrestors work great, but only in improbable
    scenarios?

    'dollar' isn't the important quality in a surge arrestor. A
    burned-out spark plug is an excellent surge arrestor, albeit somewhat
    messy, and you can have some of mine for a dime.

    Your academic, delusional world of UL stickers and mass produced
    publications don't take into account the real world and how things
    actually work.

    That's just snark; academics aside, UL certification is backed by insurance companies (the "U" stands for 'Underwriters') who are completely grounded in reality. Their reality doesn't require, however, that all devices survive lightning
    strikes and function for decades.

    A product for market will always have some formal requirements for safety, and
    it is in a manufacturer's best interest to pay close attention to those, and only those,
    requirements. It's safety, not durability, that tops their list of concerns.

    That's a good thing.

    You are quite delusional if you think safety is of any concern for even
    half of consumer products being made.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)