• LCD character size

    From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 11:25:36 2022
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box
    overhead pages and one page per plugin board.





    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Mar 5 20:38:56 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box
    overhead pages and one page per plugin board.

    Why make the screen so small? You have plenty of room - why not use it?

    You could show a huge amount of important information that would be very valuable to the customer. They would like it. You could increase the value
    and your profit.

    Stop and think for ten minutes what you would like to see. Voltage,
    current, time plots, errors, etc. It would take your programmer a day to install. The chips and ram needed are extremely cheap and don't take much space. You would own the world.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Mar 5 20:30:16 2022
    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 11:25:36 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <4cd72hleqqcmvfjmkevjqqaj6isv15tah7@4ax.com>:

    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box
    overhead pages and one page per plugin board.

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 23:05:18 2022
    On 3/5/2022 22:57, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 3/5/2022 21:25, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box
    overhead pages and one page per plugin board.






    Normally you would want a fixed character size for that sort of thing
    (for every sort of thing if you ask me unless you want to be artistic).
    I usually do 8x12 pixels, which in your case would be smallish, 0.12mm.

    So your best approach would be to go 4 physical pixels into one
    logical one and do 8x12, this would mean 25 symbols per line, 20 lines.
    If this is not enough you can still go for the 0.12mm pixel and get
    50 symbols/40 lines but people past say 55 will need spectacles
    to read that.
    Don't fall for blurry scaling, make sure each character has the same
    pixel representation anywhere on the display.

    You can use my character set (I made it around 1985...), http://tgi-sci.com/misc/chset.gif , people don't complain about it
    and this won't be the first time I declare it "use for free".
    If you go for it let me know, I can send you the binary bitmap.

    ======================================================
    Dimiter Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com ====================================================== http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/


    No need to ask for it, I must have put it there for someone
    years ago:
    http://tgi-sci.com/misc/chset12.wind . Each character starts at 12*N,
    where N is the ASCII code; a byte per line, obviously.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Mar 5 20:50:08 2022
    On 2022-03-05, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    As a WVGA its "native" text resolution would be 25 lines of 100 characters.
    but that seems a bit of a push for a 4" display.

    Get a sheet of paper and cut a hole the size of the screen, place it
    over readable text on your computer screen and count how much shows.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Mar 5 22:57:54 2022
    On 3/5/2022 21:25, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box
    overhead pages and one page per plugin board.






    Normally you would want a fixed character size for that sort of thing
    (for every sort of thing if you ask me unless you want to be artistic).
    I usually do 8x12 pixels, which in your case would be smallish, 0.12mm.

    So your best approach would be to go 4 physical pixels into one
    logical one and do 8x12, this would mean 25 symbols per line, 20 lines.
    If this is not enough you can still go for the 0.12mm pixel and get
    50 symbols/40 lines but people past say 55 will need spectacles
    to read that.
    Don't fall for blurry scaling, make sure each character has the same
    pixel representation anywhere on the display.

    You can use my character set (I made it around 1985...), http://tgi-sci.com/misc/chset.gif , people don't complain about it
    and this won't be the first time I declare it "use for free".
    If you go for it let me know, I can send you the binary bitmap.

    ======================================================
    Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com ====================================================== http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 13:52:50 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:25:11 PM UTC, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?

    short answer:
    get a Snellen Eye chart; Your characters size should be
    at least as those at the 20:20 (6:6 in EU) line
    For easy readability use double that (20:40)

    longer answer:
    The characters need to be large enough to be distinguishable
    from one another, from a stated maximum viewing distance, by
    your intended user.
    First I assume
    your letters & numbers use a simple block type font (sans serif).
    characters are high contrast (black on white background, or vice versa).
    that white part of the image luminance is a comfortable brightness range.
    the pixels constructing the characters are small, not visible at the viewing distance.
    the person has with 20:20 vision (6:6 in EU).
    (Apply formula here - to lazy to look it up)

    To the degree you vary from these assumptions, the size should be
    increased.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sat Mar 5 14:04:12 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:52:58 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:25:11 PM UTC, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?
    short answer:
    get a Snellen Eye chart; Your characters size should be
    at least as those at the 20:20 (6:6 in EU) line
    For easy readability use double that (20:40)

    longer answer:
    The characters need to be large enough to be distinguishable
    from one another, from a stated maximum viewing distance, by
    your intended user.
    First I assume
    your letters & numbers use a simple block type font (sans serif).
    characters are high contrast (black on white background, or vice versa).
    that white part of the image luminance is a comfortable brightness range.
    the pixels constructing the characters are small, not visible at the viewing distance.
    the person has with 20:20 vision (6:6 in EU).
    (Apply formula here - to lazy to look it up)

    To the degree you vary from these assumptions, the size should be
    increased.

    w = 2 * d * tan (2.5 arcmin)

    so if d = 6 feet = 72 in., then w = 0.0175"

    formula from here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snellen_chart

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Monett@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Sat Mar 5 21:44:38 2022
    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?

    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is
    readable. Typewriter spacing...

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box?
    Could you go to USB or Bluetooth for the communication, and source a
    display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame, or just an app for
    a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Doesn't it make more sense to use a mass-produced standard software
    target instead of a novel build-from-sticks hardware assembly?

    USB interface is a good idea. However, you need a computer which is not so useful for rack mount installations. Also, you must download and install
    the software on each computer that could be used. Microsoft 11 is making it very difficult to install non-approved software. You can run linux, but
    then you need a version of software that runs on different flavors. You
    could attach to a smartphone, but again you need different versions. You
    could use bluetooth instead of USB, but you still have to download and
    install software for sifferent hosts.

    Running software on a host computer is a very bad idea.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Mar 5 13:25:04 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?

    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is readable. Typewriter spacing...

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box? Could you go to USB or
    Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame,
    or just an app for a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Doesn't it make more sense to use a mass-produced standard software target instead
    of a novel build-from-sticks hardware assembly?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sat Mar 5 14:27:56 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:17:11 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:04:20 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:52:58 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:25:11 PM UTC, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply, with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might use?
    short answer:
    get a Snellen Eye chart; Your characters size should be
    at least as those at the 20:20 (6:6 in EU) line
    For easy readability use double that (20:40)

    longer answer:
    The characters need to be large enough to be distinguishable
    from one another, from a stated maximum viewing distance, by
    your intended user.
    First I assume
    your letters & numbers use a simple block type font (sans serif). characters are high contrast (black on white background, or vice versa). that white part of the image luminance is a comfortable brightness range. the pixels constructing the characters are small, not visible at the viewing distance.
    the person has with 20:20 vision (6:6 in EU).
    (Apply formula here - to lazy to look it up)

    To the degree you vary from these assumptions, the size should be increased.
    w = 2 * d * tan (2.5 arcmin)

    so if d = 6 feet = 72 in., then w = 0.0175"

    formula from here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snellen_chart
    This is the minimum "feature" size - i.e., the pixel,
    your characters should be composed of.
    Your 800x480 4.3"-diagonal LCD has dimensions
    5.375" x 3.225"
    and a pixel spacing (assuming square pixels)
    0.00671875"

    So this is below w (above)
    the pixels will not be visible at 6 ft.
    the pixels will just become detectable at
    0.00671875 / (2 * tan(2.5 arcmin))
    = 27.7" = 2.3 ft.

    Viewing closer than 2 feet, the pixellation
    may not be a problem if your characters
    are not too coarse, e.g., at least 12 x 12
    pixels.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich S@21:1/5 to Rich S on Sat Mar 5 14:17:03 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 10:04:20 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:52:58 PM UTC, Rich S wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 9:25:11 PM UTC, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might use?
    short answer:
    get a Snellen Eye chart; Your characters size should be
    at least as those at the 20:20 (6:6 in EU) line
    For easy readability use double that (20:40)

    longer answer:
    The characters need to be large enough to be distinguishable
    from one another, from a stated maximum viewing distance, by
    your intended user.
    First I assume
    your letters & numbers use a simple block type font (sans serif). characters are high contrast (black on white background, or vice versa). that white part of the image luminance is a comfortable brightness range. the pixels constructing the characters are small, not visible at the viewing distance.
    the person has with 20:20 vision (6:6 in EU).
    (Apply formula here - to lazy to look it up)

    To the degree you vary from these assumptions, the size should be increased.
    w = 2 * d * tan (2.5 arcmin)

    so if d = 6 feet = 72 in., then w = 0.0175"

    formula from here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snellen_chart
    This is the minimum "feature" size - i.e., the pixel,
    your characters should be composed of.
    Your 800x480 4.3"-diagonal LCD has dimensions
    5.375" x 3.225"
    and a pixel spacing (assuming square pixels)
    0.00671875"

    So this is below w (above)
    the pixels will not be visible at 6 ft.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 14:38:48 2022
    On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:25:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?

    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is readable. Typewriter spacing...

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box? Could you go to USB or
    Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame,
    or just an app for a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Good suggestion. We could duct-tape a cell phone to the back of the
    panel.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 15:43:37 2022
    On 3/5/2022 2:25 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is readable. Typewriter spacing...

    From what distance? I.e., when you put a display ON a bit of kit,
    you are essentially defining how/where you expect the user to
    interact with it. If the user has other ideas, he's SoL (or,
    your sale is lost to a competitor that accommodates his needs).

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box? Could you go to USB or
    Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame,
    or just an app for a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Unless you are painting on a predefined "virtual display", you're going to
    end up designing some display software.

    Increasingly (almost to the point of being ubiquitous), devices are
    shedding *their* displays in favor of some "remote" display/control
    capability. Devices look, more and more, like client (or, servers
    if you're uncomfortable with the display-as-server model).

    I.e., you expose the interface to the "back end". This leaves you with
    the task of designing a server that can harvest the information desired
    and present it on *it's* UI.

    And, if you stop thinking like an equipment manufacturer but, instead,
    see your role in a *system*, then you can imagine the UI might NOT
    want to conform to your idea of what the user *might* want to see
    on a screen and, instead, let the user *build* an interface that suits
    his needs.

    Possibly simultaneously displaying information from other devices
    (of which you may be ignorant!).

    Isn't it annoying to have to deal with a variety of devices, each with
    their own notion of *how* you should interact with them?

    [Do you display the time-of-day? date? what timezone? what format?
    etc. Do you really want to be making that decision for the user and
    annoying him at your lack of foresight for *his* needs? "Why are
    the timestamps on your device skewed with respect to those on this
    other device?"]

    When I designed the UI for my disk sanitizer, I initially tried to
    cram as much information on a "standard" display as possible. So,
    an "operator" could look at the state of all 60 disks at once in
    order to get an idea as to their progress, completion times, failure
    rates, etc.

    But, there are countless collections of data that might be of interest;
    what if the Operator wanted to focus on a *single* disk? What if he
    wanted to see it's historical performance depicted graphically instead
    of a "current state"? What if he wanted to *compare* two disks to
    highlight differences? What if he has a second such system -- another
    60 spindles -- that he wants to monitor from the same point? What
    if that point is his *home* (cuz he doesn't want to sit around for
    13 hours waiting for the process to play out)? etc.

    So, the smart solution is to separate the display from the device and,
    once that connection has been abstracted/virtualized, spend effort on
    ADDING VALUE to the UI beyond what you *thought* was appropriate.

    Doesn't it make more sense to use a mass-produced standard software target instead
    of a novel build-from-sticks hardware assembly?

    86 the hardware as you can buy something COTS for less dollars.

    But, the software will likely still remain. If you plan well,
    you can write it portably to address a variety of likely
    "presentation devices" -- just like web pages that display on
    tablets, phones, PCs, etc.

    The effort can then be leveraged, going forward, for other devices you
    produce.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sat Mar 5 14:51:28 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 3:30:14 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 11:25:36 -0800) it happened jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <4cd72hleqqcmvfjmk...@4ax.com>:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to >start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box >overhead pages and one page per plugin board.
    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    You are going to hate life when you develop presbyopia.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Sat Mar 5 15:53:38 2022
    On 3/5/2022 2:44 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?

    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is
    readable. Typewriter spacing...

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box?
    Could you go to USB or Bluetooth for the communication, and source a
    display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame, or just an app for
    a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Doesn't it make more sense to use a mass-produced standard software
    target instead of a novel build-from-sticks hardware assembly?

    USB interface is a good idea.

    For what timeframe? Where will USB be in 10 years? Will you even be
    able to buy a computer with a USB interface?

    However, you need a computer which is not so
    useful for rack mount installations. Also, you must download and install
    the software on each computer that could be used.

    That's ancient thinking. You need "something" to act as an agent
    between the display and device. If you think in terms of a single
    device, then there is pressure to integrate that agent in the
    device -- or the display.

    But, it can reside in a third location -- one that is more accessible
    to a variety of devices and displays!

    E.g., let <something> talk to your devices and (possibly) present a
    web interface to *any* hardware UI (tablet, PC, phone) that wants
    to interact with your device. Now, you care less about Android vs.
    iOS; Mac vs. PC; computer vs phone; big vs small screen; etc.

    And, solve that problem *once* and it won't care when your Windows 27
    PC with *3D* display comes along!

    Microsoft 11 is making it
    very difficult to install non-approved software. You can run linux, but
    then you need a version of software that runs on different flavors. You
    could attach to a smartphone, but again you need different versions. You could use bluetooth instead of USB, but you still have to download and install software for sifferent hosts.

    Running software on a host computer is a very bad idea.

    Indeed -- doing so the way you envision!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Sat Mar 5 15:01:00 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 4:44:49 PM UTC-5, Mike Monett wrote:
    whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use?

    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is
    readable. Typewriter spacing...

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box?
    Could you go to USB or Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame, or just an app for
    a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Doesn't it make more sense to use a mass-produced standard software
    target instead of a novel build-from-sticks hardware assembly?
    USB interface is a good idea. However, you need a computer which is not so useful for rack mount installations. Also, you must download and install
    the software on each computer that could be used. Microsoft 11 is making it very difficult to install non-approved software. You can run linux, but
    then you need a version of software that runs on different flavors. You
    could attach to a smartphone, but again you need different versions. You could use bluetooth instead of USB, but you still have to download and install software for sifferent hosts.

    Running software on a host computer is a very bad idea.

    What??? Here is a computer...

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Raspberry_Pi_4_Model_B_-_Side.jpg

    Or most likely his box has a zynq running linux on one processor. Then it just needs a USB connector on his card.

    Running linux solves a lot of mess with writing your own software for anything other than your application.

    I like the way Larkin asks us what length string he should use without any details on what he needs. My preference these days is to make text as large as possible. So the text size would depend on what is required to be displayed and what will fit.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Mike Monett on Sat Mar 5 15:10:45 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 1:44:49 PM UTC-8, Mike Monett wrote:
    whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front.

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box?
    Could you go to USB or Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame, or just an app for
    a cellphone) that has builtin software support?


    USB interface is a good idea. However, you need a computer which is not so useful for rack mount installations.

    Any smart device in a big rackmount box has probably got some microprocessor inside (what generates the characters otherwise?).
    What I'm wondering, is if there's a USB-slave display device, with non-proprietary
    standard I/O protocols, that can serve. Displays can fail, it'd be nice if they were
    easy to replace ten years from now. Can you get a replacement for a ten-year-old
    black/white LCD, and its attached backlight nowadays? Pin-compatible?
    For a USB mouse or keyboard, you CAN get the replacement.

    Doesn't have to be USB, of course; bluetooth board in an Arduino would also suffice to drive a slide-show (slow changing) display. It'd need a power supply, too, then.
    Firewire would have been perfect (lots of bus power available, isochronous transport),
    but it's kinda dead these days.

    Also, you must download and install
    the software on each computer that could be used. Microsoft 11 is making it very difficult to install non-approved software. You can run linux, but ...

    Oh, no, the whole purpose is defeated if you put a bunch of licensed specific-version
    general-purpose-computer OS software in the middle. It's a tethered display problem, devoid of a deep string of software dependencies, that is under consideration.

    I want a kind of micro- display standard socket. It could be TTY emulator, or VGA.
    That can be supported long-term.

    Running software on a host computer is a very bad idea.
    I presume you mean a remote server computer? Well, yeah. Go
    too deep with infrastructure, then Ukraine gets invaded and Ne gas
    becomes unobtainium...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com on Sat Mar 5 15:48:33 2022
    On Sat, 05 Mar 2022 20:30:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 11:25:36 -0800) it happened >jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in ><4cd72hleqqcmvfjmkevjqqaj6isv15tah7@4ax.com>:

    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to >>start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box >>overhead pages and one page per plugin board.

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Is that 40x20 characters? Looks readable.

    I could do something like 50x24 or 50x20 chars on my 800x480 LCD.

    That's actually a lot for my power supply thing. I might have as many
    as 8 channels per board/screen, one line each. Or even 12.


    Make a drawing to size first?

    I was trying to guess how many chars might work X and Y first.

    We could design the screens with Word and a fixed-pitch font, text in
    a box or something.


    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts


    The box will use a microZed board, running linux. The display
    controller will be an FT800 chip, with an SPI interface from the zed.
    We've done this before, just not with such a giant display.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 15:18:22 2022
    On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 15:43:37 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 3/5/2022 2:25 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    Well, ten characters per inch and five lines per vertical inch is readable. Typewriter spacing...

    From what distance? I.e., when you put a display ON a bit of kit,
    you are essentially defining how/where you expect the user to
    interact with it. If the user has other ideas, he's SoL (or,
    your sale is lost to a competitor that accommodates his needs).


    The user would have to be close enough to push the buttons and twirl
    the spinner knob.


    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box? Could you go to USB or
    Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame,
    or just an app for a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    Unless you are painting on a predefined "virtual display", you're going to >end up designing some display software.

    Increasingly (almost to the point of being ubiquitous), devices are
    shedding *their* displays in favor of some "remote" display/control >capability. Devices look, more and more, like client (or, servers
    if you're uncomfortable with the display-as-server model).

    I.e., you expose the interface to the "back end". This leaves you with
    the task of designing a server that can harvest the information desired
    and present it on *it's* UI.

    And, if you stop thinking like an equipment manufacturer but, instead,
    see your role in a *system*, then you can imagine the UI might NOT
    want to conform to your idea of what the user *might* want to see
    on a screen and, instead, let the user *build* an interface that suits
    his needs.

    Possibly simultaneously displaying information from other devices
    (of which you may be ignorant!).

    Isn't it annoying to have to deal with a variety of devices, each with
    their own notion of *how* you should interact with them?

    [Do you display the time-of-day? date? what timezone? what format?
    etc. Do you really want to be making that decision for the user and
    annoying him at your lack of foresight for *his* needs? "Why are
    the timestamps on your device skewed with respect to those on this
    other device?"]

    When I designed the UI for my disk sanitizer, I initially tried to
    cram as much information on a "standard" display as possible. So,
    an "operator" could look at the state of all 60 disks at once in
    order to get an idea as to their progress, completion times, failure
    rates, etc.

    But, there are countless collections of data that might be of interest;
    what if the Operator wanted to focus on a *single* disk? What if he
    wanted to see it's historical performance depicted graphically instead
    of a "current state"? What if he wanted to *compare* two disks to
    highlight differences? What if he has a second such system -- another
    60 spindles -- that he wants to monitor from the same point? What
    if that point is his *home* (cuz he doesn't want to sit around for
    13 hours waiting for the process to play out)? etc.

    So, the smart solution is to separate the display from the device and,
    once that connection has been abstracted/virtualized, spend effort on
    ADDING VALUE to the UI beyond what you *thought* was appropriate.

    It's just a power supply. People want to see volts and amps.

    So much philosophy, no numbers.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 18:11:40 2022
    On 3/5/2022 4:10 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 1:44:49 PM UTC-8, Mike Monett wrote:
    whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box?
    Could you go to USB or Bluetooth for the communication, and source a
    display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame, or just an app for
    a cellphone) that has builtin software support?

    USB interface is a good idea. However, you need a computer which is not so >> useful for rack mount installations.

    Any smart device in a big rackmount box has probably got some microprocessor inside (what generates the characters otherwise?).
    What I'm wondering, is if there's a USB-slave display device, with non-proprietary
    standard I/O protocols, that can serve. Displays can fail, it'd be nice if they were
    easy to replace ten years from now. Can you get a replacement for a ten-year-old
    black/white LCD, and its attached backlight nowadays? Pin-compatible?
    For a USB mouse or keyboard, you CAN get the replacement.

    *Today*. That's not to say you will be able to, some years from now.
    (unless the device you are building has an inherent lifespan limitation
    or is disposable -- or, the vendor wants to be in the USB mice business!).
    I have bits of test equipment that used floppies (oops!), 5 pin XT keyboards (oops!), 25 pin serial ports (oops), etc.

    The *virtual* interface is the thing you should strive to preserve as it
    can be adapted to future technologies. HP was smart enough to realize
    this **decades** ago (HPIB). Once developed/supported, it is a lead-pipe
    cinch to add it to other devices (and, benefit users who have adopted it!)

    [And, find other *software* vendors to build tools to create custom
    interfaces to a *suite* of devices]

    Exposing it also offers other possibilities: e.g., capturing data/sessions (without having to buy a "data capture option"). I have all of my test equipment tethered together so I can automate and document various processes.

    E.g., bring up the power supplies for "product X", monitor loads on each (having already set limits in the supplies established for THIS product)
    to catch any gross faults. Load excitation waveform in ARB. Set DSO to capture device's response. Begin experiment (recording)... archive to disk.

    Remove DUT. Select different "recipe/script" for product *Y* ...

    No need to wonder what data I *should* archive or lament NOT having archived some particular observation/control in the past... it's all *free*! (along with a chronology of what happened when -- disk space is cheap) Unless, of course, it's a "dumb" bit of test kit!

    And, *not* have to waste bench space making all of these devices physically accessible ... just so I can see their displays and twiddle their knobs!
    (why? I have access to ALL of that -- on every device -- from a SINGLE console!)

    And, I can access those things from any network drop, not just a specific computer/workstation (though the computer with the GPIB interface has to
    be "up" to act as bridge).

    Doesn't have to be USB, of course; bluetooth board in an Arduino would also suffice to drive a slide-show (slow changing) display. It'd need a power supply, too, then.
    Firewire would have been perfect (lots of bus power available, isochronous transport),
    but it's kinda dead these days.

    How many such devices do you expect to be able to support, in close proximity?

    Will other items in the environment interfere with reliable (wireless) comms?

    [I suspect we're going to see undesirable interactions between wireless devices as the move *away* from wired interfaces continues. You can, already, get the data AND power connections to USB devices without the cable. How much longer before that i/f is obsolescent? The connectors keep getting smaller and smaller... when will they occupy *zero* space? Once wireless charging becomes ubiquitous, how many folks are going to want to rely on a cabled interface
    for all these little devices?? RS232 survived ~60 years, in various forms. ST506? IDE? SASI/SCSI? SATA? 1394? SAS? USB? Particularly as the devices typically *relying* on those connectors are effectively "disposable" (no "investment" at stake)]

    Plus, anytime you separate the UI from device, you raise the prospect of them getting out of sync, races -- or, worse, the interface crashing and the user not being able to determine that to be the case! ("Wow! Things have been
    rock steady for the past 13 minutes!" "No, the display hasn't been *updated* in that long!" i.e., the virtual interface has to present "something" that user can use to determine if the link is still intact and content "current")

    Also, you must download and install
    the software on each computer that could be used. Microsoft 11 is making it >> very difficult to install non-approved software. You can run linux, but ...

    Oh, no, the whole purpose is defeated if you put a bunch of licensed specific-version
    general-purpose-computer OS software in the middle. It's a tethered display problem, devoid of a deep string of software dependencies, that is under consideration.

    You can design the UI to be a web interface and the details of the OS, browser, etc. all fall out of the equation (assuming you pick a stable/persistent HTML version). Because the interface protocols are "well established". (Not true between your backend and UI *inside* a device)

    [The UniSite addressed this (1980?) by relying on ANSI3.64. So, to this day,
    I can interact with one (via tip(1) into a tty with an appropriate $TERM)
    But, I can't alter what is presented nor how it is presented -- as all of
    that is locked up in the device's back-end]

    But, then you have to put the "web server" somewhere -- in the device or in the computer. Or, in ANOTHER *headless* computer that acts as agent between them (and has all the appropriate hardware to interact with the variety of such devices you own).

    I want a kind of micro- display standard socket. It could be TTY emulator, or VGA.
    That can be supported long-term.

    You can buy USB "display adapters". Plug an LCD display into it.

    But, you still need something to decide "what goes where, on the display".
    And, are prone to display resolution/aspect ratio changes. (the web
    interface would minimize this -- if pages were designed properly)

    And, have to hope the "coder" picked an appropriate set of data and
    layout to meet *your* needs.

    Running software on a host computer is a very bad idea.
    I presume you mean a remote server computer? Well, yeah. Go
    too deep with infrastructure, then Ukraine gets invaded and Ne gas
    becomes unobtainium...

    I suspect he is thinking that the UI is an "app" that has to be installed
    on a computer -- that also acts as the (hardware) display device. So,
    users find themselves chasing the "supported" platforms.

    [If you can dedicate a computer to be this agent (for a SUITE of devices),
    then you're not faced with wanting to upgrade its OS (to accommodate some
    other app) and thereby rendering the old software "unsupported on this OS".
    As you've said, "computers" are now tiny/cheap/ubiquitous. And, can be replaced/upgraded a lot easier than some proprietary software INSIDE a
    device.]

    And, unless the device can masquerade as an OTS device (e.g., "mass storage"), there's likely a custom driver involved. (same problem as above, only worse)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 5 16:27:34 2022
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 6:10:53 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 1:44:49 PM UTC-8, Mike Monett wrote:
    whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, March 5, 2022 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front.
    More to the point, why do a new screen and protocol for a new box?
    Could you go to USB or Bluetooth for the communication, and source a display (like a tablet, or electronic picture frame, or just an app for a cellphone) that has builtin software support?
    USB interface is a good idea. However, you need a computer which is not so useful for rack mount installations.
    Any smart device in a big rackmount box has probably got some microprocessor inside (what generates the characters otherwise?).
    What I'm wondering, is if there's a USB-slave display device, with non-proprietary
    standard I/O protocols, that can serve. Displays can fail, it'd be nice if they were
    easy to replace ten years from now. Can you get a replacement for a ten-year-old
    black/white LCD, and its attached backlight nowadays? Pin-compatible?
    For a USB mouse or keyboard, you CAN get the replacement.

    Doesn't have to be USB, of course; bluetooth board in an Arduino would also suffice to drive a slide-show (slow changing) display. It'd need a power supply, too, then.
    Firewire would have been perfect (lots of bus power available, isochronous transport),
    but it's kinda dead these days.
    Also, you must download and install
    the software on each computer that could be used. Microsoft 11 is making it very difficult to install non-approved software. You can run linux, but ...

    Oh, no, the whole purpose is defeated if you put a bunch of licensed specific-version
    general-purpose-computer OS software in the middle. It's a tethered display problem, devoid of a deep string of software dependencies, that is under consideration.

    I want a kind of micro- display standard socket. It could be TTY emulator, or VGA.
    That can be supported long-term.
    Running software on a host computer is a very bad idea.
    I presume you mean a remote server computer? Well, yeah. Go
    too deep with infrastructure, then Ukraine gets invaded and Ne gas
    becomes unobtainium...

    I don't know why you guys make this so difficult. Raspberry Pi is as much a standard as any other formal standard.

    https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1784.html

    Use this as shown with an rPi piggybacked providing a USB port and you will be able to replace the entire assemblage with a similar unit with whatever rPi is being sold for the next 20 years... and yes, as someone asked, USB will be around longer than RS-
    232 was popular, partly because it is such a popular standard, and partly because it is so versatile with universally available connectors, etc., etc., etc.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Mar 6 08:29:26 2022
    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 15:48:33 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <46s72h94am11ll89gpavkgsldg3h7oj4pd@4ax.com>:

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Is that 40x20 characters? Looks readable.

    Yes, 40x20, is the 'teletext' videotext / ceefax standard
    but I display 4 screens in 640x480, and you can click on the page numbers.

    The font I use
    #define TXT_CHAR_WIDTH 8
    #define TXT_CHAR_HEIGHT 9

    Using it for most Microchip PIC projects too, OLED:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/SWR_bridge_IMG_5051.JPG




    I could do something like 50x24 or 50x20 chars on my 800x480 LCD.

    That's actually a lot for my power supply thing. I might have as many
    as 8 channels per board/screen, one line each. Or even 12.


    Make a drawing to size first?

    I was trying to guess how many chars might work X and Y first.

    We could design the screens with Word and a fixed-pitch font, text in
    a box or something.


    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts


    The box will use a microZed board, running linux. The display
    controller will be an FT800 chip, with an SPI interface from the zed.
    We've done this before, just not with such a giant display.


    960x800 in Linux X on a Raspberry Pi 4, same font as before:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_bar.gif
    alarm from cenral heating radiator now, it also detects humans.

    Accepts keys, has help menu:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_help.gif
    I should change that to double height double width characters perhaps.

    Thing runs about 5 frames per second here from that FLIR camera via i2c,
    but it is not much data: 24x32 pixels.

    Yes SPI will not be as fast, I write directly to the X buffer here,
    the raspi has HDMI out to the monitor.


    Have you ever considered Raspberry Pis?
    Very fast the Pi4, but as with many things these days hard to find a seller that has any in stock.

    I have a cheap HDMI LCD from ebay somewhere, lemme see, was something like this (not same panel, there are many):
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/134043252136

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to richsulinengineer@gmail.com on Sun Mar 6 08:38:58 2022
    On a sunny day (Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:04:12 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rich S <richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote in <7a6583bc-6d51-4c14-82db-051b4101fdebn@googlegroups.com>:

    To the degree you vary from these assumptions, the size should be
    increased.

    w = 2 * d * tan (2.5 arcmin)

    so if d = 6 feet = 72 in., then w = 0.0175"

    formula from here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snellen_chart

    Add voice output
    "Current exceeding maximum, system will self-destruct in 10 seconds
    safe distance 30 miles"
    "Clap hands to abort."

    :-)

    Yes I have voice on some projects.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sun Mar 6 08:56:02 2022
    On a sunny day (Sat, 5 Mar 2022 14:51:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <467b8489-bef9-4b75-b018-1111104f8437n@googlegroups.com>:
    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    You are going to hate life when you develop presbyopia.

    Googke:
    Presbyopia is the gradual loss of your eyes' ability to focus on nearby objects.
    It's a natural, often annoying part of aging.
    Presbyopia usually becomes noticeable in your early to mid-40s and continues to worsen until around age 65.

    No worry I am way and way past that age :-)
    Reading glasses are just a few dollars from the local drugstore.
    I put 2 on top of each other to do nano-nano electronics soldering.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Arie de Muijnck@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Mar 6 11:15:52 2022
    On 2022-03-05 20:25, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to
    start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box
    overhead pages and one page per plugin board.

    Something like this instrument?

    <https://www.artisantg.com/TestMeasurement/63548-1/Muetta-PLPS-2005-Programmable-Laser-Power-Supply>
    <https://www.ebay.com/itm/323745466247?hash=item4b60bbc787:g:HQAAAOxytdlRAg3f>

    I'm the hardware designer, and wonder how the hell they got hold of my schematics: <https://www.artisantg.com/info/Muetta_PLPS2005_Schematic.pdf>

    See the user manual for the 'screenshots': <https://www.artisantg.com/info/Muetta_PLPS2005_Manual.pdf>

    Werner Damman wrote most of the software and the user manual. And put an
    easter egg inside...

    We designed the PLSP2005 user interface up front, to be sure that LCD
    panel would be sufficient.

    They are still being sold: <https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=PLPS2005&_sacat=0>


    Artisan has more of the stuff I designed: <https://www.artisantg.com/PLC/61295-1/Muetta-SSL-T9-Motor-Controller>
    which is definitely NOT a motor controller, it is a simplified single
    channel of the PLPS architecture, 20..60 in a rack, with a single
    processor board driving the bus to acquire data. Useless without the
    rack and processor.


    Arie de Muijnck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com on Sun Mar 6 07:33:53 2022
    On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 08:29:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 15:48:33 -0800) it happened >jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in ><46s72h94am11ll89gpavkgsldg3h7oj4pd@4ax.com>:

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Is that 40x20 characters? Looks readable.

    Yes, 40x20, is the 'teletext' videotext / ceefax standard
    but I display 4 screens in 640x480, and you can click on the page numbers.

    The font I use
    #define TXT_CHAR_WIDTH 8
    #define TXT_CHAR_HEIGHT 9

    Using it for most Microchip PIC projects too, OLED:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/SWR_bridge_IMG_5051.JPG




    I could do something like 50x24 or 50x20 chars on my 800x480 LCD.

    That's actually a lot for my power supply thing. I might have as many
    as 8 channels per board/screen, one line each. Or even 12.


    Make a drawing to size first?

    I was trying to guess how many chars might work X and Y first.

    We could design the screens with Word and a fixed-pitch font, text in
    a box or something.


    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts


    The box will use a microZed board, running linux. The display
    controller will be an FT800 chip, with an SPI interface from the zed.
    We've done this before, just not with such a giant display.


    960x800 in Linux X on a Raspberry Pi 4, same font as before:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_bar.gif
    alarm from cenral heating radiator now, it also detects humans.

    Accepts keys, has help menu:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_help.gif
    I should change that to double height double width characters perhaps.

    Thing runs about 5 frames per second here from that FLIR camera via i2c,
    but it is not much data: 24x32 pixels.

    Yes SPI will not be as fast, I write directly to the X buffer here,
    the raspi has HDMI out to the monitor.

    SPI isn't bad into the FT800 controller chip. It's pretty smart.



    Have you ever considered Raspberry Pis?
    Very fast the Pi4, but as with many things these days hard to find a seller that has any in stock.

    The uZed has a Zynq chip, a lot of FPGA and two 600 MHz ARM cores. We
    need the FPGA. We could use a pi for things that don't need that much
    signal processing, but we usually need an FPGA.

    The FT800 controller chips are hard to get, but their demo boards,
    with LCD, are available, so we did one box that used the demo board
    for the display. It was destined to be ugly anyhow.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1


    I have a cheap HDMI LCD from ebay somewhere, lemme see, was something like this (not same panel, there are many):
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/134043252136


    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Mar 6 15:58:06 2022
    On a sunny day (Sun, 06 Mar 2022 07:33:53 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <qek92h9r2ndruf4rhceoi6sh2cbnbmui3v@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 08:29:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 15:48:33 -0800) it happened >>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in >><46s72h94am11ll89gpavkgsldg3h7oj4pd@4ax.com>:

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Is that 40x20 characters? Looks readable.

    Yes, 40x20, is the 'teletext' videotext / ceefax standard
    but I display 4 screens in 640x480, and you can click on the page numbers.

    The font I use
    #define TXT_CHAR_WIDTH 8
    #define TXT_CHAR_HEIGHT 9

    Using it for most Microchip PIC projects too, OLED:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/SWR_bridge_IMG_5051.JPG




    I could do something like 50x24 or 50x20 chars on my 800x480 LCD.

    That's actually a lot for my power supply thing. I might have as many
    as 8 channels per board/screen, one line each. Or even 12.


    Make a drawing to size first?

    I was trying to guess how many chars might work X and Y first.

    We could design the screens with Word and a fixed-pitch font, text in
    a box or something.


    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts


    The box will use a microZed board, running linux. The display
    controller will be an FT800 chip, with an SPI interface from the zed. >>>We've done this before, just not with such a giant display.


    960x800 in Linux X on a Raspberry Pi 4, same font as before:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_bar.gif
    alarm from cenral heating radiator now, it also detects humans.

    Accepts keys, has help menu:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_help.gif
    I should change that to double height double width characters perhaps.

    Thing runs about 5 frames per second here from that FLIR camera via i2c, >>but it is not much data: 24x32 pixels.

    Yes SPI will not be as fast, I write directly to the X buffer here,
    the raspi has HDMI out to the monitor.

    SPI isn't bad into the FT800 controller chip. It's pretty smart.



    Have you ever considered Raspberry Pis?
    Very fast the Pi4, but as with many things these days hard to find a seller that has any in stock.

    The uZed has a Zynq chip, a lot of FPGA and two 600 MHz ARM cores. We
    need the FPGA. We could use a pi for things that don't need that much
    signal processing, but we usually need an FPGA.

    The Pi will give you WiFi and bluetooth, although not from inside a metal box. If you wanted to make a smartphone app... run as a server perhaps.
    I have one old Pi running as server with a navigation program.


    The FT800 controller chips are hard to get, but their demo boards,
    with LCD, are available, so we did one box that used the demo board
    for the display. It was destined to be ugly anyhow.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1

    Looks nice.
    Things change fast, I had some trouble to find a replacement LCD for my lab power supply that used the same controller.
    In the same way the new i2c OLED modules need a different initialization routine than the old ones.
    Try as little as possible to depend on libraries, people do change those all the time, not always for the better.
    Also then porting code to other systems is easier.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Mar 6 09:14:11 2022
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 10:58:23 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 06 Mar 2022 07:33:53 -0800) it happened jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <qek92h9r2ndruf4rh...@4ax.com>:
    On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 08:29:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 15:48:33 -0800) it happened >>jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in >><46s72h94am11ll89g...@4ax.com>:

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill >>>>
    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Is that 40x20 characters? Looks readable.

    Yes, 40x20, is the 'teletext' videotext / ceefax standard
    but I display 4 screens in 640x480, and you can click on the page numbers. >>
    The font I use
    #define TXT_CHAR_WIDTH 8
    #define TXT_CHAR_HEIGHT 9

    Using it for most Microchip PIC projects too, OLED:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/SWR_bridge_IMG_5051.JPG




    I could do something like 50x24 or 50x20 chars on my 800x480 LCD.

    That's actually a lot for my power supply thing. I might have as many >>>as 8 channels per board/screen, one line each. Or even 12.


    Make a drawing to size first?

    I was trying to guess how many chars might work X and Y first.

    We could design the screens with Word and a fixed-pitch font, text in >>>a box or something.


    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts


    The box will use a microZed board, running linux. The display >>>controller will be an FT800 chip, with an SPI interface from the zed. >>>We've done this before, just not with such a giant display.


    960x800 in Linux X on a Raspberry Pi 4, same font as before:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_bar.gif
    alarm from cenral heating radiator now, it also detects humans.

    Accepts keys, has help menu:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xflir_help.gif
    I should change that to double height double width characters perhaps.

    Thing runs about 5 frames per second here from that FLIR camera via i2c, >>but it is not much data: 24x32 pixels.

    Yes SPI will not be as fast, I write directly to the X buffer here,
    the raspi has HDMI out to the monitor.

    SPI isn't bad into the FT800 controller chip. It's pretty smart.



    Have you ever considered Raspberry Pis?
    Very fast the Pi4, but as with many things these days hard to find a seller that has any in stock.

    The uZed has a Zynq chip, a lot of FPGA and two 600 MHz ARM cores. We
    need the FPGA. We could use a pi for things that don't need that much >signal processing, but we usually need an FPGA.
    The Pi will give you WiFi and bluetooth, although not from inside a metal box.
    If you wanted to make a smartphone app... run as a server perhaps.
    I have one old Pi running as server with a navigation program.
    The FT800 controller chips are hard to get, but their demo boards,
    with LCD, are available, so we did one box that used the demo board
    for the display. It was destined to be ugly anyhow.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjzhoths9v55gpq/Man_Front_1.jpg?raw=1
    Looks nice.

    To me the text is a bit squinty. It looks like the opening is a LOT larger than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even the labels on the button
    are much larger than the screen text. This is the typical engineer mistake in UIs.


    Things change fast, I had some trouble to find a replacement LCD for my lab power supply that used the same controller.
    In the same way the new i2c OLED modules need a different initialization routine than the old ones.
    Try as little as possible to depend on libraries, people do change those all the time, not always for the better.
    Also then porting code to other systems is easier.

    Great reason to use an integrated device with it's own controller, connected by a simple protocol... like a modern TTY, rather than integrating a controller into the internal electronics of the box. I bet if you look around there's a defacto standard
    for these things. It looks to me like a 7 inch screen is very common. I expect you can find integrated devices in that size.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com on Sun Mar 6 10:03:22 2022
    On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 17:42:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C ><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in ><ac75a281-286d-487f-a80e-0cd6579e5d81n@googlegroups.com>:

    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >>the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even >>the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is >>the typical engineer mistake in UIs.

    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.


    It's usual on an instrument to have fairly chunky fonts for pushbutton
    and connector labels, and smaller, sometimes tiny, size text on an
    LCD.

    I guess Tek and Rigol and Keysight don't understand the rules noted
    here.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sun Mar 6 17:42:18 2022
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <ac75a281-286d-487f-a80e-0cd6579e5d81n@googlegroups.com>:

    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even >the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is
    the typical engineer mistake in UIs.

    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.


    Things change fast, I had some trouble to find a replacement LCD for my lab >power supply that used the same controller.
    In the same way the new i2c OLED modules need a different initialization routine
    than the old ones.
    Try as little as possible to depend on libraries, people do change those all >the time, not always for the better.
    Also then porting code to other systems is easier.

    Great reason to use an integrated device with it's own controller, connected >by a simple protocol... like a modern TTY, rather than integrating a controller
    into the internal electronics of the box. I bet if you look around there's
    a defacto standard for these things. It looks to me like a 7 inch screen
    is very common. I expect you can find integrated devices in that size.

    All depends, if you have a single chip (I use for example PIC 18F14K22 a lot) driving some display and write the code in asm, you have work to do if they change
    controller for the display.
    Using the small HDMI color LCDs is indeed a standard interface.
    But then you have to fight with XLib..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Mar 6 10:45:25 2022
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <ac75a281-286d-487f...@googlegroups.com>:
    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is
    the typical engineer mistake in UIs.
    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.

    I don't think there is going to be a 1920 resolution 4 inch display, ever. Even if there was, the old resolution would always be available. Larkin is using 800x640 I believe. Good resolution even for a 7 inch display. I don't think that will become
    obsolete.


    Things change fast, I had some trouble to find a replacement LCD for my lab
    power supply that used the same controller.
    In the same way the new i2c OLED modules need a different initialization routine
    than the old ones.
    Try as little as possible to depend on libraries, people do change those all
    the time, not always for the better.
    Also then porting code to other systems is easier.

    Great reason to use an integrated device with it's own controller, connected
    by a simple protocol... like a modern TTY, rather than integrating a controller
    into the internal electronics of the box. I bet if you look around there's >a defacto standard for these things. It looks to me like a 7 inch screen >is very common. I expect you can find integrated devices in that size.
    All depends, if you have a single chip (I use for example PIC 18F14K22 a lot)
    driving some display and write the code in asm, you have work to do if they change
    controller for the display.
    Using the small HDMI color LCDs is indeed a standard interface.
    But then you have to fight with XLib..

    Fight? I guess there are no good programmers left in the world. It's a shame.

    I don't know why you are talking about using a PIC in such an application. Larkin is running Linux in his box. There's no reason why the display can't have its own CPU, as I said, something like an rPi, but integrated with the display. Connect the two
    with USB or SPI or even RS-232. None of those are going away anytime soon.

    The advantage of an integrated display is it does not require changes on the controlling unit if you change the display. You talk to the display as if it were a terminal. Can't get much simpler than that.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Mar 6 10:52:47 2022
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:03:38 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 17:42:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C ><gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in ><ac75a281-286d-487f...@googlegroups.com>:

    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >>the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is >>the typical engineer mistake in UIs.

    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.

    It's usual on an instrument to have fairly chunky fonts for pushbutton
    and connector labels, and smaller, sometimes tiny, size text on an
    LCD.

    I guess Tek and Rigol and Keysight don't understand the rules noted
    here.

    You mean displays where the important parts are the graphs and the icons? Yes, they have to shrink the text to fit the display area. Same with buttons. Looks to me like the panel text is not bigger than much of the display text.

    https://www.rigolna.com/images/products/MSO5000.jpg

    What are the labels on the knobs on the Horizontal section? That frequency in the display is easy enough to read.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 6 11:28:16 2022
    søndag den 6. marts 2022 kl. 19.45.32 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in <ac75a281-286d-487f...@googlegroups.com>:
    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is >the typical engineer mistake in UIs.
    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.
    I don't think there is going to be a 1920 resolution 4 inch display, ever.

    cell phone screens are in that range

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to langwadt@fonz.dk on Sun Mar 6 13:09:47 2022
    On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:28:16 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    sndag den 6. marts 2022 kl. 19.45.32 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C >> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <ac75a281-286d-487f...@googlegroups.com>:
    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >> > >the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is
    the typical engineer mistake in UIs.
    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.
    I don't think there is going to be a 1920 resolution 4 inch display, ever.

    cell phone screens are in that range

    The character pitch on the home page of my phone is about 0.05 inch;
    some text like the mini weather report is even smaller. 80 chars
    across on my 4" wide LCD should be readable.

    My phone is 760 x 360 pix. My LCD will be 800x480. So a phone is a
    pretty good test bed for instrument display fonts.

    I've got to stop thinking about 7-seg LEDs and 16-seg VFs.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Sun Mar 6 16:29:46 2022
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 2:28:24 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    søndag den 6. marts 2022 kl. 19.45.32 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in <ac75a281-286d-487f...@googlegroups.com>:
    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on
    the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is >the typical engineer mistake in UIs.
    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.
    I don't think there is going to be a 1920 resolution 4 inch display, ever.
    cell phone screens are in that range

    I couldn't find a 4 inch cell phone, but I did find a 4.3 inch HD LCD on ebay. That makes the pixels around 70 nm or 360 to the inch. So they exist, but are extreme overkill for most LCD applications. That doesn't validate the idea they will take over
    and make it impossible to find the 800x480 display Larkin wants to use. 480x272 seems to be the most common format and LCDs have a tendency to support a given format forever because the cost factor isn't changing much with time and more dense displays
    are always more expensive to make.

    Besides, the resolution is irrelevant. That's the responsibility of the controller. You don't need to send pixel based commands. That is a silly way to control an LCD from high level code on the main processor. For this application a controller
    processor should be emulating a virtual terminal. Even an ADM-3A would do this job just fine. However, something a bit more sophisticated could provide multiple type faces with different sizes.

    I turned a small (12" maybe) TV into a terminal display once. I think it used two optoisolators and a microprocessor. I expect a video display chip was used as well. It could get some pretty small fonts with up to 64 characters across. But my eyes
    worked a charm back then. There's no way I could use something that small and low resolution now.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Mar 6 16:32:35 2022
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 4:10:02 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 11:28:16 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

    søndag den 6. marts 2022 kl. 19.45.32 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com: >> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <ac75a281-286d-487f...@googlegroups.com>:
    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on
    the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is >> > >the typical engineer mistake in UIs.
    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.
    I don't think there is going to be a 1920 resolution 4 inch display, ever.

    cell phone screens are in that range
    The character pitch on the home page of my phone is about 0.05 inch;
    some text like the mini weather report is even smaller. 80 chars
    across on my 4" wide LCD should be readable.

    Readable by whom?


    My phone is 760 x 360 pix. My LCD will be 800x480. So a phone is a
    pretty good test bed for instrument display fonts.

    I've got to stop thinking about 7-seg LEDs and 16-seg VFs.

    Use a simple processor to manage the display as a separate entity. Then the display is decoupled from the rest of the system. You can probably find something that is already programmed and just needs a serial character stream with CRLF and FF.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Mon Mar 7 08:09:04 2022
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 10:45:25 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <5cd1f698-776b-4f88-80ba-3edc4d126b17n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C

    Using the small HDMI color LCDs is indeed a standard interface.
    But then you have to fight with XLib..

    Fight? I guess there are no good programmers left in the world. It's a shame.

    You babble a lot and do not listen
    Show us ONE program you wrote for X !
    There was Xfree, then that got screwed up
    all the related libraries have been broken over time, example libforms (wrote many many programs in it)
    Old Xwindows code that works fine in XFree no longer does in X.Org
    Here some history, good luck porting your stuff:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFree86


    don't know why you are talking about using a PIC in such an application. >Larkin is running Linux in his box. There's no reason why the display can't >have its own CPU, as I said, something like an rPi, but integrated with the >display. Connect the two with USB or SPI or even RS-232. None of those
    are going away anytime soon.

    Look dude I posted even a link to an HDMI LCD display

    Stop twitching
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Mon Mar 7 08:31:07 2022
    On a sunny day (Sun, 06 Mar 2022 10:03:22 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <8et92hd8uo0u2a3h70vmkl5ntp3lkfikki@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 06 Mar 2022 17:42:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C >><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in >><ac75a281-286d-487f-a80e-0cd6579e5d81n@googlegroups.com>:

    than the screen. Why not a bigger screen giving bigger text? The text on >>>the front panel that will be read practically never is much larger yet. Even
    the labels on the button are much larger than the screen text. This is >>>the typical engineer mistake in UIs.

    One funny thing is that if you wrote say a program size 640x480
    and over the years the monitor resolution has grown to 1920x1080
    then your application looks really small (3x) on the same physical size monitor.
    Of course some programs have a re-size option but not all.


    It's usual on an instrument to have fairly chunky fonts for pushbutton
    and connector labels, and smaller, sometimes tiny, size text on an
    LCD.

    I guess Tek and Rigol and Keysight don't understand the rules noted
    here.

    Yea I actually do not see the problems, my stuff works
    I can read it no problems.
    If you do not need graphics use a character LCD display...
    SPI and I2C is good enough.
    Only for video and fast moving stuff you want to write directly to the display buffer.
    And even then:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/scope_pic-0.1-scope1_img_1941.jpg from:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
    driving a graphics LCD from a PIC 8 bits port.
    LCD-19-HG1286418C-VA.pdf
    You want color, I am sure there are plenty on ebay.
    Same font again, just a few lines of PIC ASM.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Mar 7 01:49:28 2022
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 3:09:36 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 10:45:25 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <5cd1f698-776b-4f88...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:42:22 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 6 Mar 2022 09:14:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C >> Using the small HDMI color LCDs is indeed a standard interface.
    But then you have to fight with XLib..

    Fight? I guess there are no good programmers left in the world. It's a shame.
    You babble a lot and do not listen
    Show us ONE program you wrote for X !
    There was Xfree, then that got screwed up
    all the related libraries have been broken over time, example libforms (wrote many many programs in it)
    Old Xwindows code that works fine in XFree no longer does in X.Org
    Here some history, good luck porting your stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XFree86
    don't know why you are talking about using a PIC in such an application. >Larkin is running Linux in his box. There's no reason why the display can't >have its own CPU, as I said, something like an rPi, but integrated with the >display. Connect the two with USB or SPI or even RS-232. None of those
    are going away anytime soon.
    Look dude I posted even a link to an HDMI LCD display

    Stop twitching
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.

    You are learning from Larkin.

    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. They felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a hundred different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic display where the data
    wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format. But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.

    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/

    The last project I did for myself was a test fixture using a PC as a display for exactly the reasons I give above. Minimal work to get a display working, it's just a console window that I send text to. It also logs the comms information to another
    window using sockets. I'd show you the code, but you would not likely understand any of it. Forth is a write only language. Oh, the PC also handled the data collection. It works great and a tip from another Forth user allowed the application to copy
    text to the windows paste buffer which the user can paste into a spread sheet, so no typing.

    I'm very happy with that design. Unfortunately I used a crap PCB house to make the test fixture boards and the via barrels crack every time you look at them. Had to solder wire through all the vias to put an end to that.

    Are you happy or did you want to see something else?

    --

    Rick C.

    ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Mon Mar 7 13:55:10 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:49:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <10ffb89c-88ae-4b62-a536-663f12da61den@googlegroups.com>:

    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.

    You are learning from Larkin.

    ?


    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. They >felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a hundred
    different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic
    display where the data wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format.
    But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the
    nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.

    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/

    All I see is some numbers displayed?

    Are
    you happy or did you want to see something else?

    sigh

    BTW Forth, did not know anybody was still using it.
    Last time I encountered it was when I had to do fault finding in a camera system for motion
    picture production.
    In those days they used a camera driven by a computah above some paper with text to zoom in and out
    and make special effects, the guy wrote the code in Forth.
    IIRC was a hardware design error I found out, took a few minutes.
    He designed the 'tronics too, was an old fellow worker of mine from the TV days, he had quit so they were left with the problems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Mar 7 07:10:23 2022
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:49:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <10ffb89c-88ae-4b62...@googlegroups.com>:
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.

    You are learning from Larkin.
    ?
    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. They >felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a hundred
    different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic >display where the data wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format.
    But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the
    nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.

    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/
    All I see is some numbers displayed?

    Like I said, they insisted on keeping it simple as possible. They also talked about using a tablet to provide graphs as an optional extension. The UI is rather crude with only four buttons, but it works. A member of the team found software to allow
    simulation of the UI in a virtually identical manner to how it actually looks, or so I'm told. It required a support package that I could never get working correctly.


    Are
    you happy or did you want to see something else?
    sigh

    BTW Forth, did not know anybody was still using it.
    Last time I encountered it was when I had to do fault finding in a camera system for motion
    picture production.
    In those days they used a camera driven by a computah above some paper with text to zoom in and out
    and make special effects, the guy wrote the code in Forth.
    IIRC was a hardware design error I found out, took a few minutes.
    He designed the 'tronics too, was an old fellow worker of mine from the TV days, he had quit so they were left with the problems.

    Yeah, Forth is great for hardware interaction, because it is interactive and can be operated from the command line. Any word (subroutine) can be tested as soon as it is written. The compilation process is so simple even large program can be compiled as
    fast as the file can be loaded. The development system can actually be on the target as it often uses only 8 or 12 kB.

    Did you use the Forth tools at all?

    I was playing with a TI development board and ran the development on that target from another room, using a serial port on a Raspberry Pi. I just needed a virtual connection and I could do everything I could do if sitting next to it, other than
    rebooting if it really messed up. I looked for a USB hub (it used a virtual com port cable) that could toggle power. They exist, but I didn't bother to get one. We need to walk around some anyway, so I used the reset as an excuse to stretch my legs.

    The numbers of people using Forth are dwindling. It no longer even shows up on the lists of languages. lol But as I said, it is great for interacting with hardware and debugging, so like Codewright, I keep using it.

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Mon Mar 7 16:07:55 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:10:23 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <351735b8-0b12-4726-9a11-f8174582ccbdn@googlegroups.com>:

    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:49:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C

    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <10ffb89c-88ae-4b62...@googlegroups.com>:
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.

    You are learning from Larkin.
    ?
    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. They >>
    felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a hundred

    different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic
    display where the data wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format. >>
    But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the

    nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.

    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/

    All I see is some numbers displayed?

    Like I said, they insisted on keeping it simple as possible. They also talked >about using a tablet to provide graphs as an optional extension. The UI
    is rather crude with only four buttons, but it works. A member of the team >found software to allow simulation of the UI in a virtually identical manner >to how it actually looks, or so I'm told. It required a support package
    that I could never get working correctly.


    Are
    you happy or did you want to see something else?
    sigh

    BTW Forth, did not know anybody was still using it.
    Last time I encountered it was when I had to do fault finding in a camera >system for motion
    picture production.
    In those days they used a camera driven by a computah above some paper with >text to zoom in and out
    and make special effects, the guy wrote the code in Forth.
    IIRC was a hardware design error I found out, took a few minutes.
    He designed the 'tronics too, was an old fellow worker of mine from the TV >days, he had quit so they were left with the problems.

    Yeah, Forth is great for hardware interaction, because it is interactive and >can be operated from the command line. Any word (subroutine) can be tested >as soon as it is written. The compilation process is so simple even large >program can be compiled as fast as the file can be loaded. The development >system can actually be on the target as it often uses only 8 or 12 kB.

    Did
    you use the Forth tools at all?


    Nope, the problem was one of the motors got stuck, something with the electronics drive IIRC.


    I was playing with a TI development board and ran the development on that target
    from another room, using a serial port on a Raspberry Pi. I just needed
    a virtual connection and I could do everything I could do if sitting next
    to it, other than rebooting if it really messed up. I looked for a USB hub >(it used a virtual com port cable) that could toggle power. They exist,
    but I didn't bother to get one. We need to walk around some anyway, so I >used the reset as an excuse to stretch my legs.

    I have 2 big Sitecom USB hubs in use on 2 Raspberries that also power 2 3 TB USB harddisks,
    one for each raspi.



    The numbers of people using Forth are dwindling. It no longer even shows up >on the lists of languages. lol But as I said, it is great for interacting >with hardware and debugging, so like Codewright, I keep using it.

    I like to keep things as simple as possible ;-)
    was looking at some old code
    33,357 lines of C total.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/xste-3.7.lsm
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/index.html
    that was a lot of code for some other project.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Mar 7 08:43:59 2022
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:08:02 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:10:23 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <351735b8-0b12-4726...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:49:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C >>
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <10ffb89c-88ae-4b62...@googlegroups.com>:
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.

    You are learning from Larkin.
    ?
    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. They

    felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a hundred

    different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic
    display where the data wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format.

    But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the >>
    nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.

    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/

    All I see is some numbers displayed?

    Like I said, they insisted on keeping it simple as possible. They also talked
    about using a tablet to provide graphs as an optional extension. The UI
    is rather crude with only four buttons, but it works. A member of the team >found software to allow simulation of the UI in a virtually identical manner
    to how it actually looks, or so I'm told. It required a support package >that I could never get working correctly.


    Are
    you happy or did you want to see something else?
    sigh

    BTW Forth, did not know anybody was still using it.
    Last time I encountered it was when I had to do fault finding in a camera >system for motion
    picture production.
    In those days they used a camera driven by a computah above some paper with
    text to zoom in and out
    and make special effects, the guy wrote the code in Forth.
    IIRC was a hardware design error I found out, took a few minutes.
    He designed the 'tronics too, was an old fellow worker of mine from the TV
    days, he had quit so they were left with the problems.

    Yeah, Forth is great for hardware interaction, because it is interactive and
    can be operated from the command line. Any word (subroutine) can be tested >as soon as it is written. The compilation process is so simple even large >program can be compiled as fast as the file can be loaded. The development >system can actually be on the target as it often uses only 8 or 12 kB.

    Did
    you use the Forth tools at all?
    Nope, the problem was one of the motors got stuck, something with the electronics drive IIRC.

    Yes, I got that, but I thought you might have used the Forth command line to debug the problem.


    I was playing with a TI development board and ran the development on that target
    from another room, using a serial port on a Raspberry Pi. I just needed
    a virtual connection and I could do everything I could do if sitting next >to it, other than rebooting if it really messed up. I looked for a USB hub >(it used a virtual com port cable) that could toggle power. They exist, >but I didn't bother to get one. We need to walk around some anyway, so I >used the reset as an excuse to stretch my legs.
    I have 2 big Sitecom USB hubs in use on 2 Raspberries that also power 2 3 TB USB harddisks,
    one for each raspi.

    Do either one allow power control through the USB port? I expect you don't need that with drives.


    The numbers of people using Forth are dwindling. It no longer even shows up >on the lists of languages. lol But as I said, it is great for interacting >with hardware and debugging, so like Codewright, I keep using it.
    I like to keep things as simple as possible ;-)
    was looking at some old code
    33,357 lines of C total. http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/xste-3.7.lsm http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/index.html
    that was a lot of code for some other project.

    Yes, 33,000 lines of code is a lot. One of the concepts used in Forth is modularization of the code in ways that result in the code being much smaller, both the source and the executable. Like I said, it's not uncommon to be able to install Forth onto
    the target in as little as 8 kB of Flash.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Mon Mar 7 17:23:30 2022
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:43:59 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <261e2f24-04a7-46be-b014-726093d71e4fn@googlegroups.com>:

    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:08:02 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:10:23 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C

    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <351735b8-0b12-4726...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:49:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick
    C

    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <10ffb89c-88ae-4b62...@googlegroups.com>:
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build.


    You are learning from Larkin.
    ?
    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. >They

    felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a >hundred

    different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic
    display where the data wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format.


    But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the >>

    nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.


    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/


    All I see is some numbers displayed?

    Like I said, they insisted on keeping it simple as possible. They also talked

    about using a tablet to provide graphs as an optional extension. The UI

    is rather crude with only four buttons, but it works. A member of the team

    found software to allow simulation of the UI in a virtually identical manner >>
    to how it actually looks, or so I'm told. It required a support package

    that I could never get working correctly.


    Are
    you happy or did you want to see something else?
    sigh

    BTW Forth, did not know anybody was still using it.
    Last time I encountered it was when I had to do fault finding in a camera >>
    system for motion
    picture production.
    In those days they used a camera driven by a computah above some paper >with
    text to zoom in and out
    and make special effects, the guy wrote the code in Forth.
    IIRC was a hardware design error I found out, took a few minutes.
    He designed the 'tronics too, was an old fellow worker of mine from the >TV
    days, he had quit so they were left with the problems.

    Yeah, Forth is great for hardware interaction, because it is interactive >and
    can be operated from the command line. Any word (subroutine) can be tested >>
    as soon as it is written. The compilation process is so simple even large

    program can be compiled as fast as the file can be loaded. The development

    system can actually be on the target as it often uses only 8 or 12 kB.


    Did
    you use the Forth tools at all?
    Nope, the problem was one of the motors got stuck, something with the electronics
    drive IIRC.

    Yes, I got that, but I thought you might have used the Forth command line to >debug the problem.


    I was playing with a TI development board and ran the development on that >target
    from another room, using a serial port on a Raspberry Pi. I just needed

    a virtual connection and I could do everything I could do if sitting next

    to it, other than rebooting if it really messed up. I looked for a USB hub

    (it used a virtual com port cable) that could toggle power. They exist,

    but I didn't bother to get one. We need to walk around some anyway, so I

    used the reset as an excuse to stretch my legs.
    I have 2 big Sitecom USB hubs in use on 2 Raspberries that also power 2 3 >TB USB harddisks,
    one for each raspi.

    Do either one allow power control through the USB port? I expect you don't >need that with drives.

    Well the USB hubs each run on a wallwart, so unplug it and power is off?
    You can also power the raspi from it, or from its own wallwart.



    The numbers of people using Forth are dwindling. It no longer even shows >up
    on the lists of languages. lol But as I said, it is great for interacting >>
    with hardware and debugging, so like Codewright, I keep using it.
    I like to keep things as simple as possible ;-)
    was looking at some old code
    33,357 lines of C total.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/xste-3.7.lsm
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/index.html
    that was a lot of code for some other project.

    Yes, 33,000 lines of code is a lot. One of the concepts used in Forth is modularization
    of the code in ways that result in the code being much smaller,
    both the source and the executable. Like I said, it's not uncommon to be >able to install Forth onto the target in as little as 8 kB of Flash.

    All that PIC code for 18F14K22 and smaller PICs fits in less than 8 kB
    even the pic scope does (was full that is where I stopped adding stuff).
    All depends what it has to do!

    It helps a lot not to have to link in huge libraries, IF you can write that code yourself.
    World is full of bloat...
    Bloat sells (hardware too, Microsoft deep state sort of thing, updates need more net speed).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Mar 7 11:15:05 2022
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 12:23:40 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 08:43:59 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <261e2f24-04a7-46be...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:08:02 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 07:10:23 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C >>
    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <351735b8-0b12-4726...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:55:22 AM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Mar 2022 01:49:28 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick >C

    <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <10ffb89c-88ae-4b62...@googlegroups.com>:
    Show us some code you wrote ror even somthing like that you build. >>

    You are learning from Larkin.
    ?
    This is the last thing I designed. I didn't get to choose the display. >They

    felt it was better to pick a standard display that was available from a >hundred

    different sources and was very low cost. I would have used a graphic
    display where the data wasn't being shoehorned into such a limited format.


    But they are right. You will be able to get these displays even after the


    nukes rain down. But in the long run, I don't think it went anywhere.


    https://helpfulengineering.org/projects-news/project-spotlight-openvent-bristol/


    All I see is some numbers displayed?

    Like I said, they insisted on keeping it simple as possible. They also talked

    about using a tablet to provide graphs as an optional extension. The UI

    is rather crude with only four buttons, but it works. A member of the team >>
    found software to allow simulation of the UI in a virtually identical manner

    to how it actually looks, or so I'm told. It required a support package

    that I could never get working correctly.


    Are
    you happy or did you want to see something else?
    sigh

    BTW Forth, did not know anybody was still using it.
    Last time I encountered it was when I had to do fault finding in a camera

    system for motion
    picture production.
    In those days they used a camera driven by a computah above some paper >with
    text to zoom in and out
    and make special effects, the guy wrote the code in Forth.
    IIRC was a hardware design error I found out, took a few minutes.
    He designed the 'tronics too, was an old fellow worker of mine from the >TV
    days, he had quit so they were left with the problems.

    Yeah, Forth is great for hardware interaction, because it is interactive >and
    can be operated from the command line. Any word (subroutine) can be tested

    as soon as it is written. The compilation process is so simple even large >>
    program can be compiled as fast as the file can be loaded. The development >>
    system can actually be on the target as it often uses only 8 or 12 kB.


    Did
    you use the Forth tools at all?
    Nope, the problem was one of the motors got stuck, something with the electronics
    drive IIRC.

    Yes, I got that, but I thought you might have used the Forth command line to >debug the problem.


    I was playing with a TI development board and ran the development on that >target
    from another room, using a serial port on a Raspberry Pi. I just needed >>
    a virtual connection and I could do everything I could do if sitting next >>
    to it, other than rebooting if it really messed up. I looked for a USB hub >>
    (it used a virtual com port cable) that could toggle power. They exist,

    but I didn't bother to get one. We need to walk around some anyway, so I

    used the reset as an excuse to stretch my legs.
    I have 2 big Sitecom USB hubs in use on 2 Raspberries that also power 2 3 >TB USB harddisks,
    one for each raspi.

    Do either one allow power control through the USB port? I expect you don't >need that with drives.
    Well the USB hubs each run on a wallwart, so unplug it and power is off?
    You can also power the raspi from it, or from its own wallwart.

    Yeah, you aren't getting the idea of "remote".


    The numbers of people using Forth are dwindling. It no longer even shows >up
    on the lists of languages. lol But as I said, it is great for interacting >>
    with hardware and debugging, so like Codewright, I keep using it.
    I like to keep things as simple as possible ;-)
    was looking at some old code
    33,357 lines of C total.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/xste-3.7.lsm
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/subtitles/index.html
    that was a lot of code for some other project.

    Yes, 33,000 lines of code is a lot. One of the concepts used in Forth is modularization
    of the code in ways that result in the code being much smaller,
    both the source and the executable. Like I said, it's not uncommon to be >able to install Forth onto the target in as little as 8 kB of Flash.
    All that PIC code for 18F14K22 and smaller PICs fits in less than 8 kB
    even the pic scope does (was full that is where I stopped adding stuff).
    All depends what it has to do!

    It helps a lot not to have to link in huge libraries, IF you can write that code yourself.
    World is full of bloat...
    Bloat sells (hardware too, Microsoft deep state sort of thing, updates need more net speed).

    Ok, thanks for your input.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Mar 11 17:06:40 2022
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 05 Mar 2022 11:25:36 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <4cd72hleqqcmvfjmkevjqqaj6isv15tah7@4ax.com>:

    We're designing a new rackmount box, basicly a fancy power supply,
    with an 800x480 4.3" LCD on the front. Roughly this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ubv5if7cbnsjzn/P940-8_front.jpg?raw=1

    Does anyone have an estimate of how many characters X and Y we might
    use? We'll try to fire it up next week and experiment, but I'd like to >>start thinking about screen layouts and have no idea about what might
    be reasonable. We'd want good visibility so wouldn't want anything
    really tiny.

    I'd prefer a fixed-size, fixed-pitch font, to keep the design simple.
    We might have some characters/boxes with different background colors.

    The off-screen (mechanical) pushbuttons will be page left/right and
    cursor up/dn/left/right, and a spinner knob. There will be some box >>overhead pages and one page per plugin board.

    If you do not need graphics then that resolution is probably overkill

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    All of which suck.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Leader on Fri Mar 11 17:20:56 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:06:40 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in <t0fviv$e7t$1@reader1.panix.com>:

    Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    All of which suck.

    Maybe read this:
    https://twiserandom.com/unix/x11-fonts-a-tutorial/index.html

    xlsfonts
    here shows 10,598 fonts installed on my laptop by default.

    Have you tried them all?

    And that is on an 11 year old Slackware install:
    uname -a
    Linux panteltje20 2.6.37.6 #3 SMP Sat Apr 9 22:49:32 CDT 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

    Anyways just finished some X11 code for 2 applications that now compile both on X86 and ARM (Raspberry Pi4).
    Dropped libXt, no longer needed, only using libX11
    Faster and better.
    No more Imake files, just a simple Makefile.
    And portable to almost any system.
    Here is one:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    Your turn to show us something or STFU.
    :=)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Mar 11 09:57:38 2022
    On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 12:21:44 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:06:40 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in <t0fviv$e7t$1...@reader1.panix.com>: >Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    All of which suck.
    Maybe read this:
    https://twiserandom.com/unix/x11-fonts-a-tutorial/index.html

    xlsfonts
    here shows 10,598 fonts installed on my laptop by default.

    Have you tried them all?

    And that is on an 11 year old Slackware install:
    uname -a
    Linux panteltje20 2.6.37.6 #3 SMP Sat Apr 9 22:49:32 CDT 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

    Anyways just finished some X11 code for 2 applications that now compile both on X86 and ARM (Raspberry Pi4).
    Dropped libXt, no longer needed, only using libX11
    Faster and better.
    No more Imake files, just a simple Makefile.
    And portable to almost any system.
    Here is one:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    Your turn to show us something or STFU.
    :=)

    You sound like a 10 year old when you post such challenges. I expect that from the likes of Larkin. I don't get why you would even respond to such a pointless post as his.

    Then again, I don't know why I am responding to a pointless post as yours... I'm just sayin'.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Fri Mar 11 18:52:44 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:57:38 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in <ed1acb18-0714-4788-a516-ee45b74f57a6n@googlegroups.com>:

    On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 12:21:44 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:06:40 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cydrome >> Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in <t0fviv$e7t$1...@reader1.panix.com>:
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    All of which suck.
    Maybe read this:
    https://twiserandom.com/unix/x11-fonts-a-tutorial/index.html

    xlsfonts
    here shows 10,598 fonts installed on my laptop by default.

    Have you tried them all?

    And that is on an 11 year old Slackware install:
    uname -a
    Linux panteltje20 2.6.37.6 #3 SMP Sat Apr 9 22:49:32 CDT 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel
    GNU/Linux

    Anyways just finished some X11 code for 2 applications that now compile both on X86 and ARM (Raspberry Pi4).
    Dropped libXt, no longer needed, only using libX11
    Faster and better.
    No more Imake files, just a simple Makefile.
    And portable to almost any system.
    Here is one:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    Your turn to show us something or STFU.
    :=)

    You sound like a 10 year old when you post such challenges. I expect that from the likes of Larkin. I don't get why you would
    even respond to such a pointless post as his.

    Then again, I don't know why I am responding to a pointless post as yours... I'm just sayin'.

    You could bother to read the link I gave
    as a pointED answer
    Just babbking here to spread advertizing to get free miles for your 'lectric vehicle does not teach anybody anything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Mar 11 11:37:31 2022
    On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 1:53:38 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:57:38 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
    <ed1acb18-0714-4788...@googlegroups.com>:
    On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 12:21:44 PM UTC-5, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:06:40 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cydrome
    Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in <t0fviv$e7t$1...@reader1.panix.com>:
    Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    128x64 LCD:
    http://panteltje.com/pub/gamma_soectrometer_IMG_4505.JPG

    640x480 same font...
    http://panteltje.com/pub/xvtx-p.gif

    Make a drawing to size first?

    There are a million fonts to chose from, some are free.
    Some LCDs have their own character set.
    Does it run an OS? Linux Xwindows has many fonts

    All of which suck.
    Maybe read this:
    https://twiserandom.com/unix/x11-fonts-a-tutorial/index.html

    xlsfonts
    here shows 10,598 fonts installed on my laptop by default.

    Have you tried them all?

    And that is on an 11 year old Slackware install:
    uname -a
    Linux panteltje20 2.6.37.6 #3 SMP Sat Apr 9 22:49:32 CDT 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel
    GNU/Linux

    Anyways just finished some X11 code for 2 applications that now compile both on X86 and ARM (Raspberry Pi4).
    Dropped libXt, no longer needed, only using libX11
    Faster and better.
    No more Imake files, just a simple Makefile.
    And portable to almost any system.
    Here is one:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/download.html#xflir

    Your turn to show us something or STFU.
    :=)

    You sound like a 10 year old when you post such challenges. I expect that from the likes of Larkin. I don't get why you would
    even respond to such a pointless post as his.

    Then again, I don't know why I am responding to a pointless post as yours... I'm just sayin'.
    You could bother to read the link I gave
    as a pointED answer
    Just babbking here to spread advertizing to get free miles for your 'lectric vehicle does not teach anybody anything.

    No, just more BS. You do the same thing as many others here. You make noises about discussing technical stuff, but your posts here are now just ego trips and BS. You didn't post the like so you could discuss anything. You posted it so you could
    follow it up with "STFU" to Cydrome. I don't really care. I just find it humorous when people climb up on high horses to claim they are doing the right thing and others are not.

    Whatever. It's s.e.d Jake.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)