[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the battery

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed
The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv3nns$fvc$1@dont-email.me:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]

Nope. Some groups / folks refer to them as "metro scooters".

A real 'scooter'(like the ones they've had in Italy for decades),
however, is like a moped, but with no pedals and usually has a body
crafted around it. 12" and up for the wheel diameters.

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Rich kids with a card mom or dad gave them running around cities
having fun. Probably pot couriers.

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

There are actual mopeds here as well that "more mature" folks use,
but yeah they all have trackers in them that may go dormant as long
as it gets left at the right drop off points, which is likely because
you want the hourly rate charge to stop as soon as you are done with
it. So the 'missing' ones are rare because the last user is the
first suspect or payee as it were.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").

You rent it, it activates it's timer. You MUST return it to a
proper drop off point for it to communicate with the server and end
your rental session.

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each
rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up,
periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

The full size bikes get left at automatic charging stations.
The little kid scooter things vary from brand to brand and city to
city. If there is no charging station, the drop off point sends
battery condition info as well, and yes, they get rounded up like
cattle that don't run away.

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

The vans I saw, the guy was dragging newly charged bikes off, and
loading ded bikes on. Big bikes too. Big friggin vans out there
nowadays. Gas slurpers, I'm sure.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

The van probably burns up all that was saved.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before
arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

Some have a shop they cycle them through. Take 20 out, and pick
twenty up.

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

The real litter problem in the USA is really assholes and their
discarded cigarette butts. But now, the bigger problem is discarded
masks.

But these little 2 wheel guys are ok. A regular part of many cities
now. Don't get yer bloomers in a bunch. :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with >>> an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute.  "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a  model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the >> battery

Ah, that would make sense.  OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service".  Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip.  If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town.  Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations.  E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be.  The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others. Typical customers
are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

Apparently the GPS also geofences where they can't be taken
and where they have to be speed limited (15mph on roads,
less in shopping areas). Illegal ones - all bets are off,
of course.

They are dropped off anywhere and everywhere, and in
some places there are so many that they obstruct the
pavement (i.e. where pedestrians walk).

I wonder what happens when you take one home, somebody
else uses it next day, and you can't find one near you.
(I believe the app shows you a map of where the one
you are going to rent is located).

There are occasional newspaper articles about users
being banned. The last one I saw was a dashcam showing
two people on the scooter. That's not uncommon,
but illegal.

The surprising point in that case is that they
identified the perp; the identification codes are
too small to be seen on the dashcam or by eye
when moving.

I have occasionally moved them with extreme prejudice,
to enable my mother's disabled buggy to pass.

Another failure mechanism is: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/02/stealing-bicycles-by-swapping-qr-codes.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/23/2022 1:52 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with >>>> an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage >>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the >>> battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks >> to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places
(controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also
prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban >>> people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped >> a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

[I was more concerned with the business model that would "justify"
that sort of risk/overhead.]

There are (were?) two providers authorized to make these available
"for pay", in town. There are no (?) limitations on other "owned"
units being used (though they are not allowed on sidewalks).

ICE-powered "skateboards" were common, some years back. The noise
from their tiny "chainsaw" engines (30cc?) was universally considered
annoying -- so much so that they were banned, in town.

There are some similarly powered "bicycle adapters" that seem to have
skirted any restrictions, though.

And, IIRC, anything less than ~50cc can be operated without a license
on roadways -- unless it is a "moped" (moped > motorized bicycle in
terms of BHP and max speed) which must be licensed/registered/insured.

[We have mopeds (ANY license/registered/insured/roadways), motorized/electric bicycle (no license, registration or insurance, roadways and bike paths), scooters (motorcycle license, registered, insured, roadways) and eScooters (same as motorized/electric bicycle). The differences in classifications
are related to BHP, max speed, engine displacement/power, number of wheels, pedals/not, etc.]

You'll see Segways (different models, ninebots being most common as they are considerably cheaper; think: youngsters), one-wheeled skateboards (inverted pendulum control), the "scooters" I described in this topic, motorized bicycles, etc. Plus "real" vehicles (motorcycles, trikes -- front and rear, cars/trucks/etc) and all sorts of bicycles (recumbent, racing, etc.)

Typical customers
are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

I've not seen any "adults" riding the two-wheeled devices
described, here. So, question the city's emphasis on
making them available for underprivileged population
(only poor *kids* but not their parents??)

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

They don't require any licensing or insurance (for the operator).
No idea if the "provider" carries a blanket policy, though.

I would imagine an accident with a motor vehicle would treat
them as pedestrians or bike-riders. One-wheeled devices and
hoverboards are explicitly considered "pedestrians".

Apparently the GPS also geofences where they can't be taken
and where they have to be speed limited (15mph on roads,
less in shopping areas). Illegal ones - all bets are off,
of course.

An "escooter" is limited to having a maximum speed of 25MPH
if less than 75 pounds; under 30 pounds it is classified as
a "mini scooter" if limited to 10 MPH.

Given that the speed limit is 25MPH on residential roads
(barring "school zones" when children are likely to be
transiting to/fro), there's no real problem. Mopeds
tend to be underpowered and only a fool would consider
operating them on city streets (speed limit being 45
on most -- which means 55+ in practice!)

[Any vehicle smaller than a decent sized car represents
a significant risk, here. Lots of oversized trucks,
SUVs, etc. and a fair number of motorcycle and pedestrian
accidents.]

They are dropped off anywhere and everywhere, and in
some places there are so many that they obstruct the
pavement (i.e. where pedestrians walk).

The rental program requires them to be off the sidewalk
and adjacent to the street, parked "upright". Of course,
anyone walking by can kick one over and leave it that way!

I wonder what happens when you take one home, somebody
else uses it next day, and you can't find one near you.
(I believe the app shows you a map of where the one
you are going to rent is located).

I wonder what would happen if you *really* "took it home"
and kept it "locked up" just to ensure it would be accessible
to you the next day?! Would someone potentially knock on your
door claiming they wanted to rent it? (is the GPS accuracy
enough that they can detect that it is not *at* the curb but,
instead, 20+ feet recessed (in your garage, carport, behind
a shrub, etc.)

There are occasional newspaper articles about users
being banned. The last one I saw was a dashcam showing
two people on the scooter. That's not uncommon,
but illegal.

Yes, also illegal, here. No doubt for safety reasons.
But, also allows rental company to charge "per customer"
(what would a parent with a young child do?)

The surprising point in that case is that they
identified the perp; the identification codes are
too small to be seen on the dashcam or by eye
when moving.

I have occasionally moved them with extreme prejudice,
to enable my mother's disabled buggy to pass.

I've not seen them blocking roadways or sidewalks.
But, I *have* seen them laying on their sides (as a
child might mistreat their own "toy").

What's more annoying is seeing them scattered around
several businesses as if there was no "rule" for where
they could be left. (are you THAT lazy that you can't
park them in groups?)

Another failure mechanism is: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/02/stealing-bicycles-by-swapping-qr-codes.html

I'm surprised someone hasn't rented one, passively examined
it's design, completed the rental -- and then used that
information to steal one without ever having to disclose
your identity (i.e., by renting it).

Granted, one could design the drive electronics to *require*
the operation/acknowledgement via modem. But, I can't see
why you couldn't replace the entire electronics package
with a modest PWM controller (?) Most of the "value" seems
like it would be in the hub motor and physical mechanism...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv4q8b$g79$1@dont-email.me:

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery
so they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just
replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
rental).

This is likely not true. Otherwise kids would be stealing the
batteries, just like the copper wire days.

They are sealed in and get recharged on the scoot. I see vans of
folks gathering them up (the whole scooter)and putting out freshly
charged units all the time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 17.55.08 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sv4q8b$g79$1...@dont-email.me:

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery
so they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just
replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
rental).

This is likely not true. Otherwise kids would be stealing the
batteries, just like the copper wire days.

there's obviously a lock on it ..

They are sealed in and get recharged on the scoot. I see vans of
folks gathering them up (the whole scooter)and putting out freshly
charged units all the time.

https://www.voiscooters.com/blog/voi-receives-formal-dft-approval-on-its-e-scooters/

"50% reduction in service emissions, thanks to a drastic reduction in trips necessary
for charging and maintaining scooters when batteries can be swapped on site"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with >>> an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage >>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the >> battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with >>>>> an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage >>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider >>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically, >>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving >>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the >>>> battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service.
The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one >>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment) >>>
Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped >>> a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:sv68j3$vem$3@dont-email.me:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
the previous "renter" lost interest in continued use
(rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
that lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing
info") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
"typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged
before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
"litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
(?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover
expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as
the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip. If you're
headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
they can ban people that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in
place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators's license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone. I just go
where I need to go and if I were ever hassled about it, I would swear
that it is only 50cc. Har har. I never climb up anybody's ass and
most folks do not bother me about it when they are behind me.
Drive safely and at the speed limit and a cop watching cars come down
the road goes on about finding the loony ones, not the nice and easy
ones.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that >>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage >>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being >>>>> "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider >>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically, >>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving >>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so
they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to
imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service. >>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing
your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement.
(and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one >>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment) >>>
Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h

you can of course also buy some that are much faster and not type approved
for use on public roads, but that is no different that offroad/racing cars or bikes

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

you could also illegally drive an offroad motorcycle or race car on the street, that doesn't
mean all bike or cars on the road are illegal

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

they are a convenient compact alternative to a bicycle and
the rules for using them similar

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
the previous "renter" lost interest in continued use
(rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
that lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing
info") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
"typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged
before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
"litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
(?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover
expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as
the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip. If you're
headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
they can ban people that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in
place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators's license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.

everyone says that, until they do
and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
you leave someone else with a big bill that you can't pay
and no insurance to cover it ...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 2:08:17 PM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever
the previous "renter" lost interest in continued use
(rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each
that lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing
info") as well as where it presently resides, battery state,
etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report its
location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them
up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters assume
that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san
francisco or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago)
over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
"typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged
before arriving at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
"litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent
rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet
(?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service scooters
for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to cover
expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the
service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as
the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip. If you're
headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could well be at
that storefront (no guarantee that you will want to reuse the
device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be
to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so
they can ban people that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put in
place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at
store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from
the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so
unlikely they would live here or choose to visit/shop in this
part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at 45MPH city traffic
speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio operators's license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.

everyone says that, until they do
and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
you leave someone else with a big bill that you can't pay
and no insurance to cover it ...

He will probably Hit and Run anyway.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 23/02/22 21:59, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the >>>>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that >>>>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage >>>>>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being >>>>>>> "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider >>>>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically, >>>>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility). >>>>>>>
So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here, >>>>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco >>>>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support >>>>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving >>>>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so >>>>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to >>>>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service. >>>>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg"
of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing >>>>> your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement. >>>>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one >>>>> of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment) >>>>>
Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright,
toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and,
again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars...
We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would
live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)] >>>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi

rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h

Not in the UK.

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

you can of course also buy some that are much faster and not type approved for use on public roads, but that is no different that offroad/racing cars or bikes

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

you could also illegally drive an offroad motorcycle or race car on the street, that doesn't
mean all bike or cars on the road are illegal

True, but irrelevant.

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional campus), and anybody
else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

they are a convenient compact alternative to a bicycle and
the rules for using them similar

People don't obey the law - and that's true for bikes
and drones.

With drones they often aren't aware that their playthings
are covered by the same law as commercial airliners - the
Air Navigation Order. Of course the permitted activities
are different for 747s, balloons and drones :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 23.48.37 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 21:59, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.22.53 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the >>>>>>> previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that >>>>>>> lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info") >>>>>>> as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being >>>>>>> "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider >>>>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically, >>>>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility). >>>>>>>
So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here, >>>>>>> encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco >>>>>>> or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical" >>>>>>> charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support >>>>>>> "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving >>>>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter". >>>>>>>
So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable battery so >>>>>> they don't have to bring them home for charging, they can just replace the
battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must be
easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the scooter
ends up unattended for long periods after it's most recent rental). >>>>>
Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a fleet (?) of trucks
to canvas the city to collect/service scooters for "service". Hard to >>>>> imagine enough "sales" to cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's places (controlled
via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip there. Also prevent
you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for the service. >>>>> The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can act as the "last leg" >>>>> of your (public transportation) trip. If you're headed *to* a
storefront, then the drop-off could well be at that storefront
(no guarantee that you will want to reuse the device after finishing >>>>> your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter be to
come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most want
assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked so they can ban people
that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo requirement. >>>>> (and, the service has to be usable by folks without "smart phones" -- one
of the conditions the city put in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after you've snapped
a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked upright, >>>>> toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g., at store A and, >>>>> again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college kids"
already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them to/from the bars... >>>>> We're a dozen? *miles* away from the campus so unlikely they would >>>>> live here or choose to visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20
minute drive at 45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)] >>>> My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi

rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

nonsense, you can literally buy exactly the same as used by Voi or
numerous others type approved to exactly the same regulations
and limited to to the same 20km/h

Not in the UK.

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

I know UK have some insane rules, what's next only rental cars allowed on the street?

"You will own NOTHING, you will WILL be happy about it"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/23/2022 4:06 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 23.48.37 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

Even if you have the same type of scooter, they would be illegal.
The only legal scooters are the /hired/ scooters.

I know UK have some insane rules, what's next only rental cars allowed on the street?

"You will own NOTHING, you will WILL be happy about it"

"Legality" is a red herring -- unless you've implemented a police state and
can *ensure* that "illegal acts/devices" can not happen/exist.

The law (here) says you can't operate (or even HOLD!) a cell phone, while driving. Yet I see nearly every car leaving my subdivision (in the morning rush) occupied by a driver consulting their phone. This, KNOWING that any damage/injury done will be to someone you likely KNOW or live with.

[Of course, if this was an important issue, you could mandate that
phones refuse to operate when moving at speeds in excess of human walking!
(is consulting a phone while walking without risk?)]

As a kid, I drove my (homemade) "go-kart" around the neighborhood, despite operation on a public roadway being expressly forbidden. Each time, wondering if some "grump" would call the police about my activity.

I can't (legally) operate a drone without line-of-sight. OTOH, if I stand on my *roof*, that line of sight extends pretty damn far! (much farther than
the folks whose houses I'd be overflying would have expected)

It is this disconnect between what *can* be done and what is *allowed* that
is interesting. E.g., all of the little gasoline-powered skateboards that
just *disappeared*, overnight, when the laws were changed. (I know *I* would be pissed if I suddenly couldn't use an item that I'd purchased!)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in news:1b56315c-0715-4e37-9542-eb132ed46924n@googlegroups.com:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 22.58.29 UTC+1 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:sv68j3$vem$3...@dont-email.me:

On 23/02/22 18:48, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 23. februar 2022 kl. 09.52.20 UTC+1 skrev Tom
Gardner:

On 23/02/22 08:11, Don Y wrote:

On 2/22/2022 4:05 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 22. februar 2022 kl. 23.23.05 UTC+1 skrev Don
Y:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled
skateboard with an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left*
wherever the previous "renter" lost interest in continued
use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in
each that lets it phone home to report usage (and
"account/billing info") as well as where it presently
resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage theft (e.g., by continuing to report
its location WHILE it is being "moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever
each rider happens to leave them, *someone* has to round
them up, periodically, to charge them (I doubt the renters
assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits,
here, encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of
san francisco or boston... just slightly larger than
Chicago) over a widely distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of
"typical" charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could
support "on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are
charged before arriving at their *intended* destination
(?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this
"litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks
*attractive*?

here they are typically ~$1.50 start plus ~$0.40 per minute

They are $1 to start and 29c per minute. "Underprivileged"
users pay half rate (50c start, 15c/minute)

I believe here they changed to a model with replaceable
battery so they don't have to bring them home for charging,
they can just replace the battery

Ah, that would make sense. OTOH, it means the battery must
be easily replaceable (without encouraging theft... the
scooter ends up unattended for long periods after it's most
recent rental).

Regardless, it means the business model has to rely on a
fleet (?) of trucks to canvas the city to collect/service
scooters for "service". Hard to imagine enough "sales" to
cover expenses, maintenance/replacement costs, etc.

There's discounts for parking at one of the "hubs" There's
places (controlled via the GPS)
where you are not allowed to park so you can't end a trip
there. Also prevent you from
driving out of the area, or in places where it is not
allowed

I don't see any mention of that in the advertisements for
the service. The "pitch" seems to be that the scooter can
act as the "last leg" of your (public transportation) trip.
If you're headed *to* a storefront, then the drop-off could
well be at that storefront (no guarantee that you will want
to reuse the device after finishing your business, there).

OTOH, if returning *home*, how likely would another renter
be to come by YOUR house to pick up the "discard"?

[Presumably, returning home would be when you would most
want assistance -- transporting your purchases, etc.]

The app requires that you take a picture of how you parked
so they can ban people that can't use common sense

There are two providers, in town. Only one has the photo
requirement. (and, the service has to be usable by folks
without "smart phones" -- one of the conditions the city put
in place before allowing their deployment)

Regardless, what's to stop someone moving the scooter after
you've snapped a photo of it "parked properly"?

[Driving down some of the busier roads, we see them parked
upright, toppled, etc. in seemingly random locations. E.g.,
at store A and, again, at store B -- a score of yards away.

Amusingly, you hardly ever see one IN USE.

[I wonder who the targeted ridership might be. The "college
kids" already have a shiny new streetcar to cart them
to/from the bars... We're a dozen? *miles* away from the
campus so unlikely they would live here or choose to
visit/shop in this part of town (it's a 20 minute drive at
45MPH city traffic speeds just to get to the campus)]

My local city is infested with two varieties. The legal Voi
rental scooters and the illegal others.

illegal as in, completely identical but owned instead of
rented?

Completely different, especially w.r.t. design quality
and limited speed.

Legal to buy and sell, but can only be legally used on
private land with the owner's permission. You can guess
how well that is enforced!

Typical customers are students (city centre traditional
campus), and anybody else. Most riders seem to be under 35yo.

They are legally road vehicles, so the riders have to have
a licence and insurance. I have no idea how that is
enforced. My insurance company tells me in an accident
they would be treated as uninsured drivers, and I would
lose my no-claims bonus (60%, IIRC!)

how (why) is it any different than riding a bicycle?

From an insurance point of view, the guess is that there
is no difference. I say "guess" because it was an opinion
from someone in an insurance office, not a legally tested
result.

They are like drones in that they are impulse purchases
made without consideration nor understanding - and then
operated without caution where they can harm other people.

Back in the seventies I applied for and received my FCC CB radio
operators's license.

When I bought my first drone the first thing I did was get on the
FAA website and register and license it.

I currently ride a scooter whenever the weather is above freezing
and not raining. It will do like 70 MPH but there is no tags no
license, no insurance as I will not be hitting anyone.

everyone says that, until they do
and then you have caused damages and possibly injuries
you leave someone else with a big bill that you can't pay
and no insurance to cover it ...

With my scooter? Hardly. With 3500lb cars sure. Not going to be
plowing into any crowds any time soon.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

StupidAs StupidGet <buildbetterbilly@gmail.com> wrote in news:1b16cffc- d4f4-4fe4-8ccf-7a96102a16f4n@googlegroups.com:

He will probably Hit and Run anyway.

If I knew your address, I sure as fuck would, but it would be a 454
Cassul and your face, so you wouldn't know a thing cause you would be
worm food.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 3:50:27 PM UTC-8, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

StupidAs StupidGet <buildbet...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1b16cffc- d4f4-4fe4-8ccf...@googlegroups.com:

He will probably Hit and Run anyway.

If I knew your address, I sure as fuck would, but it would be a 454
Cassul and your face, so you wouldn't know a thing cause you would be
worm food.

You have no regard for law and order and public safety anyway. FFF

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town.  Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you outline.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you outline.

There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.

What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved. There's a fair
bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
stumble onto sufficient ridership). All of that investment is out being subject to abuse/theft.

[Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated "stores". Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it BACK!]

And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they will
let you cherry-pick your market.

Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
flat tires that would require "attention").

It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

keyboard ninja always wrong

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 24/02/2022 1:09 pm, Don Y wrote:

On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with >>> an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town.  Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you
outline.

There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.

What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved.  There's a fair
bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
stumble onto sufficient ridership).  All of that investment is out being subject to abuse/theft.

[Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated "stores". Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it BACK!]

And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they will let you cherry-pick your market.

Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
flat tires that would require "attention").

It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over
when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't
been used for a while. It is quite possible to use one to go home from
work (if you are within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on
the footpath, and then in the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or
if it was flat hop on the fully charged replacement.

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
similar service - no idea how much money they make

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/25/2022 8:00 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 24/02/2022 1:09 pm, Don Y wrote:

On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard with >>>> an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town. Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to prevent/discourage >>>> theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider
happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically,
to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving
at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you outline. >>

There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.

What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved. There's a fair
bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
stumble onto sufficient ridership). All of that investment is out being
subject to abuse/theft.

[Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated "stores". >> Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it BACK!] >>
And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they will >> let you cherry-pick your market.

Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
flat tires that would require "attention").

It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't been used for
a while.

So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where it was found? Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

[The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are
within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath, and then in
the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was flat hop on the fully
charged replacement.

Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
be claimed by another rider? Or, is the GPS reporting of position
sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a similar service - no idea how much money they make

Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.

OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 26/02/2022 4:30 pm, Don Y wrote:

On 2/25/2022 8:00 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 24/02/2022 1:09 pm, Don Y wrote:

On 2/23/2022 6:55 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 23/02/2022 8:22 am, Don Y wrote:

[Dunno if "scooters" is the proper name -- a two-wheeled skateboard
with
an upright "handlebar"...]

I see these all around town.  Obviously, just *left* wherever the
previous "renter" lost interest in continued use (rental).

Presumably, there is a GPS receiver and (cell?) modem in each that
lets it phone home to report usage (and "account/billing info")
as well as where it presently resides, battery state, etc.

I'm sure there is some sort of mechanism in place to
prevent/discourage
theft (e.g., by continuing to report its location WHILE it is being
"moved without rent").

And, even if you assume they can continue to sit wherever each rider >>>>> happens to leave them, *someone* has to round them up, periodically, >>>>> to charge them (I doubt the renters assume that responsibility).

So, it seems like a labor-intensive task (the city limits, here,
encompass some ~240 sq mi -- about 5 times that of san francisco
or boston... just slightly larger than Chicago) over a widely
distributed area.

While battery choice could decrease the frequency of "typical"
charge-use cycles, it likely can't avoid them.

I'd imagine any vehicle tasked with retrieving them could support
"on vehicle charging" -- so the scooters are charged before arriving >>>>> at their *intended* destination (?).

I also see some pushback in metro areas from all this "litter".

So, what's the motivation to undertake such an enterprise?
Are the rental rates high enough that it looks *attractive*?

the is a service in Brisbane Australia that works *exactly* as you
outline.

There is/are at least one (likely two) that operate similarly here.

What I'm trying to understand is the economics involved.  There's a fair >>> bit of capital outlay (you can't just buy a few of them and hope to
stumble onto sufficient ridership).  All of that investment is out being >>> subject to abuse/theft.

[Note how often shopping carts wander away from their associated
"stores".
Doubtful someone who walked a cart home will be inclined to walk it
BACK!]

And, given the need for the city's buy-in, you can't expect that they
will
let you cherry-pick your market.

Also are services that rent *bicycles* -- but bikes don't need to
be *regularly* refueled (and I can't imagine they experience many
flat tires that would require "attention").

It's neither a "goods" market nor a (purely) "service" market.

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them
over when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they
haven't been used for a while.

So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where
it was
found?  Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

They leave them where the sales are.

[The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are
within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath,
and then in the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was
flat hop on the fully charged replacement.

Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
be claimed by another rider?  Or, is the GPS reporting of position
sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I
suspect what happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner
city) charge station, ride one home and leave it outside (they are not
really kids scooters so no interest there) In the morning you take it
back to work and the local charge station and during the day other
people ride it around the city) and end of day you just grab which ever
one is there and home you go. Whatever happens it seems to work.

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
similar service - no idea how much money they make

Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.

OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/28/2022 9:19 PM, David Eather wrote:

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over when
they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't been used >>> for a while.

So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where it was
found? Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

They leave them where the sales are.

I guess it depends on where they consider the sale to have *been*.
E.g., I see it at the point where the trip originated -- not where
the next trip *might* originate.

[The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

This being a good example of the above: clearly there *was* a sale... somewhere *else*! Whether another sale follows from the place
where the scooter was left is not yet known.

It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are within a >>> couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath, and then in the >>> morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was flat hop on the fully >>> charged replacement.

Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
be claimed by another rider? Or, is the GPS reporting of position
sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I suspect what
happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner city) charge station,

That would assume such a place is convenient to most potential riders.

Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
majority of work traffic. The University is a source of potential
riders. But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
*leave* that area.

ride one home and leave it outside (they are not really kids scooters so no interest there) In the morning you take it back to work

But, if you left it curbside, near your home, what's the guarantee
that you will find it there the next morning? (hence my "stash it"
strategy). It would be disheartening to plan your morning with the
expectation of a *ride* to work -- only to discover that ride isn't
available!

<frown> Sadly, I can't practically observe ridership as we live
in an area where there are as many *vehicles* as residents (NOT
"residences" but "residents").

and the local charge
station and during the day other people ride it around the city) and end of day
you just grab which ever one is there and home you go. Whatever happens it seems to work.

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a similar >>> service - no idea how much money they make

Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.

OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/03/2022 9:42 am, Don Y wrote:

On 2/28/2022 9:19 PM, David Eather wrote:

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them
over when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they
haven't been used for a while.

So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it
where it was
found?  Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

They leave them where the sales are.

I guess it depends on where they consider the sale to have *been*.
E.g., I see it at the point where the trip originated -- not where
the next trip *might* originate.

[The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

This being a good example of the above:  clearly there *was* a sale... somewhere *else*!  Whether another sale follows from the place
where the scooter was left is not yet known.

It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are
within a couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath,
and then in the morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was
flat hop on the fully charged replacement.

Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
be claimed by another rider?  Or, is the GPS reporting of position
sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I
suspect what happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner
city) charge station,

That would assume such a place is convenient to most potential riders.

Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the majority of work traffic.  The University is a source of potential
riders.  But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
*leave* that area.

ride one home and leave it outside (they are not really kids scooters
so no interest there) In the morning you take it back to work

But, if you left it curbside, near your home, what's the guarantee
that you will find it there the next morning?  (hence my "stash it" strategy).  It would be disheartening to plan your morning with the expectation of a *ride* to work -- only to discover that ride isn't available!

<frown>  Sadly, I can't practically observe ridership as we live
in an area where there are as many *vehicles* as residents (NOT
"residences" but "residents").

and the local charge station and during the day other people ride it
around the city) and end of day you just grab which ever one is there
and home you go. Whatever happens it seems to work.

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
similar service - no idea how much money they make

Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.

OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

What the fuck do you want? Their business plan works for them. You are
just criticizing what you cant be bothered to do. END.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/1/2022 6:59 PM, David Eather wrote:

On 2/03/2022 9:42 am, Don Y wrote:

On 2/28/2022 9:19 PM, David Eather wrote:

the group in Oz has gps tracking and a van goes out and swaps them over >>>>> when they need charge. They don't "take them back" unless they haven't >>>>> been used for a while.

So, they replace the "dead" unit with a fresh one -- and leave it where it was
found? Even if it is "off the beaten track"?

They leave them where the sales are.

I guess it depends on where they consider the sale to have *been*.
E.g., I see it at the point where the trip originated -- not where
the next trip *might* originate.

[The other day, we saw one at the side of the road miles away from
anywhere we could imagine some OTHER user wanting the unit]

This being a good example of the above: clearly there *was* a sale...
somewhere *else*! Whether another sale follows from the place
where the scooter was left is not yet known.

It is quite possible to use one to go home from work (if you are within a >>>>> couple of kilometers of course), leave it on the footpath, and then in the
morning hop on it again and go to work. Or if it was flat hop on the fully
charged replacement.

Wouldn't I want to stash it someplace where I knew it wouldn't
be claimed by another rider? Or, is the GPS reporting of position
sensitive enough to bitch if you take it 30 ft from the road?

I would too (like to stash it that is), but they don't seem to. I suspect >>> what happens is when work is over you go to the local (inner city) charge >>> station,

That would assume such a place is convenient to most potential riders.

Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
majority of work traffic. The University is a source of potential
riders. But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
*leave* that area.

ride one home and leave it outside (they are not really kids scooters so no >>> interest there) In the morning you take it back to work

But, if you left it curbside, near your home, what's the guarantee
that you will find it there the next morning? (hence my "stash it"
strategy). It would be disheartening to plan your morning with the
expectation of a *ride* to work -- only to discover that ride isn't
available!

<frown> Sadly, I can't practically observe ridership as we live
in an area where there are as many *vehicles* as residents (NOT
"residences" but "residents").

and the local charge station and during the day other people ride it around >>> the city) and end of day you just grab which ever one is there and home you >>> go. Whatever happens it seems to work.

They have been there for a couple of years and the gold coast has a
similar service - no idea how much money they make

Yeah, it seems like there's a fair bit of cost involved.

OTOH, if they *weren't* making money, you would think they
would have closed up shop (I don't think they are subsidized...?)

What the fuck do you want?

I want to understand their business plan. I don't see others
rushing to adopt it.

Their business plan works for them. You are just
criticizing what you cant be bothered to do. END.

I have no desire to "do" anything comparable. What makes
you think that I would? Did I *claim* I wanted to do so?

The *two* providers, here, logged ~174K trips in a 6 month
"trial" period. The average trip being 9 minutes to cover
0.86 miles (about 5.7 MPH -- walking speed is 3 MPH).

Assuming none of them were discounted rides (half price),
that's 174K flag drops ($174K) and 1.6M "rider minutes"
($454K) to travel 142K miles.

So, $628K of revenue. Municipal fees totalled $73K.
As such, a *maximum* of $555K to purchase, maintain and
operate their fleets (1000 plus units) over that period.

Ridership waned to *half* of what it was initially.

Here, *residents* develop city and county policy at the
ballot box. E.g., we've made *all* photo-enforcement of
traffic laws illegal as a response to the implementation
decisions left in the hands of legislators and vendors.

So, it makes sense to understand the math behind these
business decisions as it portends the likely future of
these programs. The more profitable an undertaking,
the more likely a vendor will work to continue having
access to a market and implementing practices that
fit with the wishes of the *entire* population, not
the 30K "unique riders" that used the service in that
period. Likewise, the less profitable a service proves
to be, the more enticement needs to be offered.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/22/22 22:57, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

The real litter problem in the USA is really assholes and their
discarded cigarette butts.

I remember the days of smoking in the supermarket, dropping the butts on
the floor and thoughtfully stepping on them when finished.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 01/03/22 23:42, Don Y wrote:

Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the majority of work traffic.  The University is a source of potential
riders.  But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
*leave* that area.

I've seen claims that scooters take passengers away from busses.
I regard that as difficult to distinguish from covid effects.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/2/2022 7:57 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 01/03/22 23:42, Don Y wrote:

Here, there is no real "down-town" that would be representative of the
majority of work traffic. The University is a source of potential
riders. But, there is a streetcar that services that area so the
only need for an "untethered" transport would be if you wanted to
*leave* that area.

I've seen claims that scooters take passengers away from busses.
I regard that as difficult to distinguish from covid effects.

We have piss poor "public transit", here. We're a bit larger
than Chicago yet with a tiny fraction of the "transit" options
(bus, subway, rail). So, the city is often looking for "easy"
(read: "piss poor") alternatives to expand accessibility.

[The streetcar and scooters being their most recent attempts]

So, the scooters offer access to areas not serviced by busses.
(It is illegal to carry a scooter onto a bus so you need to hope
the bus stops *near* an available scooter).

Only 3% of survey respondents said the lack of the scooter
service would have left them with a bus as their likely mode
of transit (36% would have walked, 24% would have taken
their own vehicle while 14% would have used some other
livery service)

But, it doesn't appear to be a viable option to address
the entire population (and the entire city area). As they
are supposed to ride on the roadways, the quality of the
pavement (shoulder) is an issue (60% of riders had this
complaint) and their perceived safety in riding there
(50% of riders).

As a result, most (98% of observed rides) ride on the
sidewalk. And, a similar portion (98%) ride without
helmets.

As would be expected, 75% of *riders* approve of their
availability while 66% of NON-riders disapprove.
Likely related to age/wealth demographics... you're
unlikely to want/need a scooter if you've got a car;
similarly, if you're living in a dorm/etc. where
having a vehicle is difficult/costly, then you
likely welcome their availability (as "walking" is
so tedious for a young person! :> )

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)