• scary video of battery fire

    From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 19:08:51 2022
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Feb 18 19:22:35 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 2:09:02 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    Anthony Watts gets paid to push climate change denial propaganda, paid for by the fossil carbon extraction industry.

    They've got an obvious interest in persuading people to keep on driving gasoline-powered cars - it's an appreciable chunk of their market - which does lead them to push silly claims about how dangerous electric cars might be.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 05:08:10 2022
    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Feb 2022 19:08:51 -0800) it happened jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in <ion01hdrl7ff2on102gom6lhqanimapctt@4ax.com>:


    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    That is why I use Lifepo4 type batteries when possible:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Fri Feb 18 21:15:27 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:02 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    It is video. It is fire. And, apparently, JL is scared of
    a fire in mid-Atlantic. But, there's no known cause of the fire.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Layman@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 08:04:54 2022
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally
    burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt
    steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of combustion is entirely different too.

    --

    Jeff

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  • From boB@21:1/5 to pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com on Sat Feb 19 01:16:59 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:08:10 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Feb 2022 19:08:51 -0800) it happened >jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in ><ion01hdrl7ff2on102gom6lhqanimapctt@4ax.com>:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    That is why I use Lifepo4 type batteries when possible:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery


    Yes and even Tesla is starting to usw LiFePo4 in some of their cars.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 01:43:45 2022
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    ===========================================

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/


    ** Sweet dreams .....

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/



    ..... Phil

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  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 05:48:34 2022
    lørdag den 19. februar 2022 kl. 04.09.02 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/


    I thought you weren't scared of anything?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jeff Layman on Sat Feb 19 06:24:15 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 3:05:06 AM UTC-5, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of combustion is entirely different too.

    Adiabatic flame temperature (constant pressure) of common fuels
    Gasoline Air 2138 °C

    "Burning gasoline has a temperature above 1500° E (945° C). Therefore, it can heat objects in the fire area above its ignition temperature. To prevent reignition after extinguishment, the agent should be applied for sufficient time to allow hot objects
    in the fire area to cool below the ignition temperature of the gasoline."

    Sounds like a very dangerous fuel to use in passenger cars you carry your children in. Good thing we are getting rid of it. We can keep it in lawnmowers where it's safe.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=lawnmower+fire&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjY1uTg-4v2AhXrq3IEHaA_DMIQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to boB on Sat Feb 19 06:37:28 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 3:17:47 AM UTC-5, boB wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:08:10 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Feb 2022 19:08:51 -0800) it happened >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
    <ion01hdrl7ff2on10...@4ax.com>:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    That is why I use Lifepo4 type batteries when possible:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

    Yes and even Tesla is starting to usw LiFePo4 in some of their cars.

    It has nothing to do with fires. They are cheaper and don't use Cobalt, a material that is not so easy to come by. They still use nickel-cobalt-aluminum in the long range cars because it has a higher energy density. Neither battery chemistry has a
    problem with fire when compared to the highly dangerous gasoline powered vehicles.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=pinto+fires&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpoPaj_Yv2AhXxoHIEHdZiCGcQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=923&bih=497&dpr=1.94

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to gnuarm.del...@gmail.com on Sat Feb 19 06:53:23 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 6:37:39 AM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 3:17:47 AM UTC-5, boB wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:08:10 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Feb 2022 19:08:51 -0800) it happened >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in ><ion01hdrl7ff2on10...@4ax.com>:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    That is why I use Lifepo4 type batteries when possible:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

    Yes and even Tesla is starting to usw LiFePo4 in some of their cars.
    It has nothing to do with fires. They are cheaper and don't use Cobalt, a material that is not so easy to come by. They still use nickel-cobalt-aluminum in the long range cars because it has a higher energy density. Neither battery chemistry has a
    problem with fire when compared to the highly dangerous gasoline powered vehicles.

    For gasoline cars, they only keep enough to drive in and out of the ship. For EV, they should use a small main battery for short distance driving and removable modules for long distance. Lithium batteries are safer with lower density.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 07:34:53 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >combustion is entirely different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    It's apparently not prudent to keep big lithium batteries indoors.

    Google images for 'tesla fire'. Often there's not much of the car
    left.

    Yeah, they have that in common with gasoline fires. A big difference is you can put out a lithium-ion battery fire by spraying water on it. Gasoline floats on water and spreads like... wildfire. You have to use special foams and such. Very hard to
    put out and very dangerous. Gasoline fires make lithium-ion battery fires look like no big deal in comparison. They also happen much less often, "traditional internal-combustion vehicles experience one fire for every 19 million miles traveled; for
    Teslas EVs, it's one fire for 205 million miles traveled." That's a factor of over 10 to 1!

    We had an accident on the DC beltway with a gasoline fire that was so hot they feared it took the temper out of the bridge girders over it. Gasoline fires are so hot, they heat material above the ignition temperature of gasoline, so even when you put
    out the fire, it can reignite.

    Noooo, gasoline fires are nothing to mess with. Very dangerous and hard to put out. That is what you were saying, right?

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 07:56:42 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >combustion is entirely different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    Very low power density per pound/kg.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to jmlayman@invalid.invalid on Sat Feb 19 07:23:50 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally
    burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000C, perhaps 1200C in some cases. That's not enough to melt
    steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >combustion is entirely different too.

    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    It's apparently not prudent to keep big lithium batteries indoors.

    Google images for 'tesla fire'. Often there's not much of the car
    left.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 08:28:49 2022
    On 2/18/2022 10:15 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:02 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    It is video. It is fire. And, apparently, JL is scared of
    a fire in mid-Atlantic. But, there's no known cause of the fire.

    <https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/19/europe/greece-ferry-fire-intl/index.html>

    (I wonder if something the people ate was the cause of the fire?)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 07:17:05 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 21:15:27 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:02 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    It is video. It is fire. And, apparently, JL is scared of
    a fire in mid-Atlantic. But, there's no known cause of the fire.

    Mid-Atlantic? Scared?



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to langwadt@fonz.dk on Sat Feb 19 08:03:21 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:48:34 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    lrdag den 19. februar 2022 kl. 04.09.02 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/


    I thought you weren't scared of anything?

    I'm not, but I wouldn't like having my house or my children
    incinerated. But I'm interested in electrical things.





    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to edward.ming.lee@gmail.com on Sat Feb 19 08:57:21 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 07:56:42 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee
    <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally
    burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000C, perhaps 1200C in some cases. That's not enough to melt
    steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of
    combustion is entirely different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    Very low power density per pound/kg.

    And the liquid electrolyte probably cools off small shorts until they
    open, before they spread.

    Aluminum caps are self-healing. Tantalums detonate.




    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sat Feb 19 08:53:41 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:28:49 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 2/18/2022 10:15 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:02 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    It is video. It is fire. And, apparently, JL is scared of
    a fire in mid-Atlantic. But, there's no known cause of the fire.

    <https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/19/europe/greece-ferry-fire-intl/index.html>

    (I wonder if something the people ate was the cause of the fire?)

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a39137893/cargo-ship-fire-fueled-by-ev-batteries/

    Sounds expensive. Best thing to do is probably sink the ship.




    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 09:28:13 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:57:32 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 07:56:42 -0800 (PST), Ed Lee
    <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >> >burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >> >of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >> >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >> >combustion is entirely different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    Very low power density per pound/kg.
    And the liquid electrolyte probably cools off small shorts until they
    open, before they spread.

    Larkin is a poor thinker. It is the heat that eliminates a small short by "blowing" the fuse. Keep it cool and the short remains.

    Lead acid batteries do very much explode. You would need to be very sheltered to not be familiar with that. They both can explode from shorts causing the sulfuric acid electrolyte to boil or from the hydrogen vented mixing with oxygen and exploding
    when sparked.

    https://www.quora.com/What-makes-a-car-s-battery-explode

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to jmlayman@invalid.invalid on Sat Feb 19 12:16:46 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally
    burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000C, perhaps 1200C in some cases. That's not enough to melt
    steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >combustion is entirely different too.

    A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that
    a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt.

    If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron
    articles would be cast.

    For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a
    report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels
    is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old
    diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of
    examples.

    .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc>

    "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway"
    - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sat Feb 19 10:08:10 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:17:05 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are >chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, >which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >combustion is entirely different too.
    A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that
    a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt.

    If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron
    articles would be cast.

    For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a
    report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels
    is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old
    diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of examples.

    .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc>

    "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway"
    - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021.

    Lol! I like the fact that you show an example of gasoline fires destroying a huge garage to support the idea that lithum-ion battery fires are dangerous. "It could just as well been" lithium batteries!

    Most likely there were a few BEVs in that garage. The report you link says they don't know how many vehicles total and they don't know how many BEVs. So not much of a report. They did say the BEVs did not contribute to the fire any more than gasoline
    cars as reported by the fire fighters.

    I think the take away from this is, they need to park the gasoline cars somewhere else so the BEVs are safe from the gasoline fires. Er det ikke sant?

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to whit3rd@gmail.com on Sat Feb 19 17:16:30 2022
    whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:02 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    It is video. It is fire. And, apparently, JL is scared of
    a fire in mid-Atlantic. But, there's no known cause of the fire.

    german automotive electrical systems are garbage. Surprised more of the transports don't catch on fire.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 13:35:05 2022
    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:48:34 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>lrdag den 19. februar 2022 kl. 04.09.02 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-
    caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >> >>I thought you weren't scared of anything?I'm not, but I wouldn't like having my house or my childrenincinerated. But I'm interested in electrical things.-- I yam what I yam - Popeye

    What about 'Hank the Tank'?

    Cheers
    --


    ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Sat Feb 19 11:33:52 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:35:05 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com Wrote in message:r
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 05:48:34 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:>lrdag den 19. februar 2022 kl. 04.09.02 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:>> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-
    caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/ >> >>I thought you weren't scared of anything?I'm not, but I wouldn't like having my house or my childrenincinerated. But I'm interested in electrical things.-- I yam what I yam - Popeye

    What about 'Hank the Tank'?

    Cheers

    It would be annoying to have a bear in the kitchen. They make a real
    mess. And they smell bad.

    South Tahoe seems to get more bears than we do. And the first floor of
    our cabin is concrete blocks, which are bug-proof and fire-proof and bear-proof.

    We have a friend in Homewood that had to install electric door mats.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com on Sat Feb 19 14:41:14 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:08:10 -0800 (PST), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:17:05 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally
    burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000C, perhaps 1200C in some cases. That's not enough to melt
    steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of
    combustion is entirely different too.
    A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that
    a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt.

    If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron
    articles would be cast.

    For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a
    report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels
    is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old
    diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of
    examples.

    .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc>

    "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway"
    - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021.

    Lol! I like the fact that you show an example of gasoline fires destroying a huge garage to support the idea that lithum-ion battery fires are dangerous. "It could just as well been" lithium batteries!

    Most likely there were a few BEVs in that garage. The report you link says they don't know how many vehicles total and they don't know how many BEVs. So not much of a report. They did say the BEVs did not contribute to the fire any more than gasoline
    cars as reported by the fire fighters.

    I think the take away from this is, they need to park the gasoline cars somewhere else so the BEVs are safe from the gasoline fires. Er det ikke sant?

    The original question was if such fires can bring a building down, the
    claim being that this was impossible. But it turns out to have
    happened multiple times, with films and investigations to prove it.

    Also note that such parking structures are very common in airports
    around the world, and it was quite uncommon for a vehicle fire to
    spread to such a degree, to the point of taking the building down,
    until very recently.

    EVs are quite common in Norway. And I bet the Norwegians know
    *exactly* what kind of vehicles were destroyed, from vehicle
    registration records and insurance claims and/or lawsuits. Not to
    mention parking-garage records, and audits of licence plate number
    inventories taken every night (to prevent embezzlement). Even if the
    car was totally destroyed, it would be pretty easy to make the case
    that the car was lost in that fire. Wonder why they didn't want to
    say.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sat Feb 19 12:54:29 2022
    On 2/19/2022 8:56 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally
    burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet
    of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >>> steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of
    combustion is entirely different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    Very low power density per pound/kg.

    Neighbor's house burned TO THE GROUND (literally, nothing left standing) because of a fire *started* by a lead-acid battery (electrical short).

    Not much "energy" in a single match -- but that won't prevent it
    from burning down a forest!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sat Feb 19 12:19:37 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:54:29 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 8:56 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >>>> burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >>>> of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000C, perhaps 1200C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >>>> steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >>>> combustion is entirely different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants, and
    get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.

    Very low power density per pound/kg.

    Neighbor's house burned TO THE GROUND (literally, nothing left standing) >because of a fire *started* by a lead-acid battery (electrical short).

    Did the battery or the shorting wire start the fire? I guess nobody
    will ever know.


    Not much "energy" in a single match -- but that won't prevent it
    from burning down a forest!

    Here in California, all sorts of people and businesses are being held
    liable for starting big forest fires, when the real problem is crazy
    forest management and insane fuel loads. There will always be ignition
    sources.

    People should get awards for starting fires. Lots of little fires are
    better than a few gigantic ones.





    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sat Feb 19 18:21:11 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 7:19:49 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:54:29 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:56 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:24:09 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    <snip>

    Here in California, all sorts of people and businesses are being held
    liable for starting big forest fires, when the real problem is crazy
    forest management and insane fuel loads. There will always be ignition sources.

    People should get awards for starting fires. Lots of little fires are
    better than a few gigantic ones.

    In Australia, the fire-fighters do it as part of their job.

    At the end of every winter Sydney tends to get covered in smoke haze as the fire services carry out "fuel reduction burns"'

    In a bad fire season it doesn't help much. Getting rid of the easily inflammable scrub gets rid of a lot of tinder, but when whole trees start burning there's a lot more fuel available and the fire can get gigantic early on and burn though large areas.

    Climate change isn't helping. The most recent bad bushfire season saw our stand of Wollemia pine - a living fossil - threatened.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wollemia

    They seem to have been around for 100 million years which points up the speed of the recent warming.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sun Feb 20 12:28:28 2022
    On 19/02/2022 16:34, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/


    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires
    are chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt
    steel, so there may not be much left to analyse by the time the
    ship fire finally burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the
    internet of investigations into EV battery fires. The
    temperatures reached are around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some
    cases. That's not enough to melt steel, just to soften and weaken
    it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, which is not too far off the
    /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of combustion is entirely
    different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants,
    and get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.


    It's apparently not prudent to keep big lithium batteries indoors.


    Google images for 'tesla fire'. Often there's not much of the car
    left.

    Yeah, they have that in common with gasoline fires. A big difference
    is you can put out a lithium-ion battery fire by spraying water on
    it. Gasoline floats on water and spreads like... wildfire. You have
    to use special foams and such. Very hard to put out and very
    dangerous. Gasoline fires make lithium-ion battery fires look like
    no big deal in comparison. They also happen much less often,
    "traditional internal-combustion vehicles experience one fire for
    every 19 million miles traveled; for Teslas EVs, it's one fire for
    205 million miles traveled." That's a factor of over 10 to 1!

    We had an accident on the DC beltway with a gasoline fire that was so
    hot they feared it took the temper out of the bridge girders over it. Gasoline fires are so hot, they heat material above the ignition
    temperature of gasoline, so even when you put out the fire, it can
    reignite.

    Noooo, gasoline fires are nothing to mess with. Very dangerous and
    hard to put out. That is what you were saying, right?



    What is certainly true, is that petrol fires are no joke. Pouring on a
    bit of water will spread the burning petrol if there is sufficient heat
    to keep it alight - you need enough water to cool the petrol (and
    anything else heated by the fire) below the ignition temperature, and
    you need to do it without spreading the fire. But you can put out the
    flames using foams that block the oxygen.

    In some cases, just pouring on water is /fine/ - a thin layer of burning
    petrol floating on water is not going to damage a road that is already
    cleared, and it will go out quickly. But if that process carries flames
    to other things that can ignite, you're in big trouble. Choosing the
    best way to fight a fire is not just a matter of knowing the material
    that is burning.


    Lithium fires are also no joke. Foams won't help in many battery fires,
    as blocking off oxygen does not stop the fire. Pouring on water can
    make it worse, causing a more violent fire. The ideal treatment is to
    put the battery in a water bath to cool it.


    According to the Norwegian Fire Brigade (in Norway we have a higher
    proportion of electric cars than anywhere else), a fire in the battery
    of an electric car is a much bigger problem than a fire in a petrol car.
    They have had to develop new methods - including lifting the burning
    car into a large water bath. However, most fires in electric cars
    (especially newer ones) don't ignite the battery, and fires are far
    rarer in electric cars than petrol cars (relative to the number of
    cars). Overall, therefore, electric cars are significantly safer (by a
    factor of about 5, if I remember the statistics correctly) than petrol
    cars in terms of fires.


    What is new, however, is that we now have lithium batteries inside
    buildings in a way that we don't have petrol. The high-risk time for
    petrol is when filling a tank, or when there is another problem with the running car - petrol fires in cars parked in garages are very uncommon.
    The biggest risk for lithium batteries is when charging them,
    especially if the battery is damaged or the charger or battery is of
    poor quality. So people are seeing lithium fires in their homes from
    charging electric bike batteries and the like. There have been several
    major fires from burning batteries at electric scooter hire companies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun Feb 20 11:39:35 2022
    On 20/02/22 11:28, David Brown wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 16:34, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-5,
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/


    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires
    are chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt
    steel, so there may not be much left to analyse by the time the
    ship fire finally burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the
    internet of investigations into EV battery fires. The
    temperatures reached are around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some
    cases. That's not enough to melt steel, just to soften and weaken
    it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, which is not too far off the
    /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of combustion is entirely
    different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants,
    and get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.


    It's apparently not prudent to keep big lithium batteries indoors.


    Google images for 'tesla fire'. Often there's not much of the car
    left.

    Yeah, they have that in common with gasoline fires. A big difference
    is you can put out a lithium-ion battery fire by spraying water on
    it. Gasoline floats on water and spreads like... wildfire. You have
    to use special foams and such. Very hard to put out and very
    dangerous. Gasoline fires make lithium-ion battery fires look like
    no big deal in comparison. They also happen much less often,
    "traditional internal-combustion vehicles experience one fire for
    every 19 million miles traveled; for Teslas EVs, it's one fire for
    205 million miles traveled." That's a factor of over 10 to 1!

    We had an accident on the DC beltway with a gasoline fire that was so
    hot they feared it took the temper out of the bridge girders over it.
    Gasoline fires are so hot, they heat material above the ignition
    temperature of gasoline, so even when you put out the fire, it can
    reignite.

    Noooo, gasoline fires are nothing to mess with. Very dangerous and
    hard to put out. That is what you were saying, right?



    What is certainly true, is that petrol fires are no joke. Pouring on a
    bit of water will spread the burning petrol if there is sufficient heat
    to keep it alight - you need enough water to cool the petrol (and
    anything else heated by the fire) below the ignition temperature, and
    you need to do it without spreading the fire. But you can put out the
    flames using foams that block the oxygen.

    In some cases, just pouring on water is /fine/ - a thin layer of burning petrol floating on water is not going to damage a road that is already cleared, and it will go out quickly. But if that process carries flames
    to other things that can ignite, you're in big trouble. Choosing the
    best way to fight a fire is not just a matter of knowing the material
    that is burning.


    Lithium fires are also no joke. Foams won't help in many battery fires,
    as blocking off oxygen does not stop the fire. Pouring on water can
    make it worse, causing a more violent fire. The ideal treatment is to
    put the battery in a water bath to cool it.


    According to the Norwegian Fire Brigade (in Norway we have a higher proportion of electric cars than anywhere else), a fire in the battery
    of an electric car is a much bigger problem than a fire in a petrol car.
    They have had to develop new methods - including lifting the burning
    car into a large water bath. However, most fires in electric cars (especially newer ones) don't ignite the battery, and fires are far
    rarer in electric cars than petrol cars (relative to the number of
    cars). Overall, therefore, electric cars are significantly safer (by a factor of about 5, if I remember the statistics correctly) than petrol
    cars in terms of fires.


    What is new, however, is that we now have lithium batteries inside
    buildings in a way that we don't have petrol. The high-risk time for
    petrol is when filling a tank, or when there is another problem with the running car - petrol fires in cars parked in garages are very uncommon.
    The biggest risk for lithium batteries is when charging them,
    especially if the battery is damaged or the charger or battery is of
    poor quality. So people are seeing lithium fires in their homes from charging electric bike batteries and the like. There have been several
    major fires from burning batteries at electric scooter hire companies.

    Not just Norway; here's one in a UK building owned by Voi
    scooter rental company. https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2022-01-02/more-than-200-e-scooters-damaged-in-new-years-day-fire

    It took 8 engines and 12 firemen to put it out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Sun Feb 20 12:58:06 2022
    On 19/02/2022 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:08:10 -0800 (PST), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:17:05 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so
    there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >>>> burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >>>> of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are
    around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >>>> steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C,
    which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >>>> combustion is entirely different too.
    A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that
    a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt.

    If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron
    articles would be cast.

    For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a
    report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels
    is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old
    diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of
    examples.

    .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc>

    "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway"
    - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021.

    Lol! I like the fact that you show an example of gasoline fires destroying a huge garage to support the idea that lithum-ion battery fires are dangerous. "It could just as well been" lithium batteries!

    Most likely there were a few BEVs in that garage. The report you link says they don't know how many vehicles total and they don't know how many BEVs. So not much of a report. They did say the BEVs did not contribute to the fire any more than
    gasoline cars as reported by the fire fighters.

    I think the take away from this is, they need to park the gasoline cars somewhere else so the BEVs are safe from the gasoline fires. Er det ikke sant?

    The original question was if such fires can bring a building down, the
    claim being that this was impossible. But it turns out to have
    happened multiple times, with films and investigations to prove it.

    Also note that such parking structures are very common in airports
    around the world, and it was quite uncommon for a vehicle fire to
    spread to such a degree, to the point of taking the building down,
    until very recently.

    EVs are quite common in Norway. And I bet the Norwegians know
    *exactly* what kind of vehicles were destroyed, from vehicle
    registration records and insurance claims and/or lawsuits. Not to
    mention parking-garage records, and audits of licence plate number inventories taken every night (to prevent embezzlement). Even if the
    car was totally destroyed, it would be pretty easy to make the case
    that the car was lost in that fire. Wonder why they didn't want to
    say.


    Of course they know exactly which cars were destroyed in the fire. They
    even know exactly which car started the fire - a deseil Opel Zafira,
    which is a model implicated in several other fires.

    Although I don't know the numbers myself, I would expect there were a
    good many electric cars in the parking house. However, a high
    proportion of these would be found in the spaces with chargers which was
    on the other side of the building from where the fire started.

    If you want to read the full report, it's available here <https://www.dsb.no/globalassets/dokumenter/rapporter/andre-rapporter/rise-rapport-2020_43_evaluering-av-brann-i-parkeringshus-pa-stavanger-lufthavn-sola_2020-06-26.pdf>

    Of course, most of it is in Norwegian.

    The report concludes there was nothing to indicate that electric
    vehicles made the fire worse in comparison to conventional vehicles (nor
    was there any reason to suspect that conventional vehicles were worse).

    The prime reasons for the scale of the destruction are found in the
    building construction - no sprinklers, and too little space between
    cars. Like most car fires, petrol or electric, it was mostly the rest
    of the cars that burned. Petrol tanks and batteries are both well
    protected and isolated, and are often not involved in the fire.
    (Exploding petrol tanks are for Holywood, not reality.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun Feb 20 09:29:37 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 6:28:39 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 16:34, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/


    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires
    are chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt
    steel, so there may not be much left to analyse by the time the
    ship fire finally burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the
    internet of investigations into EV battery fires. The
    temperatures reached are around 1000°C, perhaps 1200°C in some
    cases. That's not enough to melt steel, just to soften and weaken
    it. Thermite reaches around 2500°C, which is not too far off the
    /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of combustion is entirely
    different too.
    What they have in common is that both contain all the reactants,
    and get very hot fast, so both are hard to put out.

    A lead-acid battery stores a lot of energy but they don't explode.


    It's apparently not prudent to keep big lithium batteries indoors.


    Google images for 'tesla fire'. Often there's not much of the car
    left.

    Yeah, they have that in common with gasoline fires. A big difference
    is you can put out a lithium-ion battery fire by spraying water on
    it. Gasoline floats on water and spreads like... wildfire. You have
    to use special foams and such. Very hard to put out and very
    dangerous. Gasoline fires make lithium-ion battery fires look like
    no big deal in comparison. They also happen much less often,
    "traditional internal-combustion vehicles experience one fire for
    every 19 million miles traveled; for Teslas EVs, it's one fire for
    205 million miles traveled." That's a factor of over 10 to 1!

    We had an accident on the DC beltway with a gasoline fire that was so
    hot they feared it took the temper out of the bridge girders over it. Gasoline fires are so hot, they heat material above the ignition temperature of gasoline, so even when you put out the fire, it can reignite.

    Noooo, gasoline fires are nothing to mess with. Very dangerous and
    hard to put out. That is what you were saying, right?

    What is certainly true, is that petrol fires are no joke. Pouring on a
    bit of water will spread the burning petrol if there is sufficient heat
    to keep it alight - you need enough water to cool the petrol (and
    anything else heated by the fire) below the ignition temperature, and
    you need to do it without spreading the fire. But you can put out the
    flames using foams that block the oxygen.

    In some cases, just pouring on water is /fine/ - a thin layer of burning petrol floating on water is not going to damage a road that is already cleared, and it will go out quickly. But if that process carries flames
    to other things that can ignite, you're in big trouble. Choosing the
    best way to fight a fire is not just a matter of knowing the material
    that is burning.

    You are shooting from the hip rather than knowing anything about it. Even if you only have a thin layer of gasoline as the water spreads out, at some point it flows to a point where it collects, like a drain. That gets interesting!

    Yeah, fire spreads and that's a big problem.


    Lithium fires are also no joke. Foams won't help in many battery fires,
    as blocking off oxygen does not stop the fire. Pouring on water can
    make it worse, causing a more violent fire. The ideal treatment is to
    put the battery in a water bath to cool it.

    Good thing we don't have to worry about lithium fires.


    According to the Norwegian Fire Brigade (in Norway we have a higher proportion of electric cars than anywhere else), a fire in the battery
    of an electric car is a much bigger problem than a fire in a petrol car. They have had to develop new methods - including lifting the burning
    car into a large water bath.

    Yep, there's no reaction like overreaction. You only need to hose the fire. Lithium-ion battery fires are not hard to put out at all. The problem is you need to monitor the battery for a while since damaged cells can flare up again. At no point is
    the fire as hard to fight as a gasoline fire.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36189237/tesla-model-s-fire-texas-crash-details-fire-chief/


    However, most fires in electric cars
    (especially newer ones) don't ignite the battery, and fires are far
    rarer in electric cars than petrol cars (relative to the number of
    cars). Overall, therefore, electric cars are significantly safer (by a factor of about 5, if I remember the statistics correctly) than petrol
    cars in terms of fires.

    More like 10 to 1.

    “From 2012 to 2020, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 205 million miles traveled,” Tesla tells us. “By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and US Department of Transportation show that,
    in the US, there is one vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.”


    What is new, however, is that we now have lithium batteries inside
    buildings in a way that we don't have petrol. The high-risk time for
    petrol is when filling a tank, or when there is another problem with the running car - petrol fires in cars parked in garages are very uncommon.
    The biggest risk for lithium batteries is when charging them,
    especially if the battery is damaged or the charger or battery is of
    poor quality. So people are seeing lithium fires in their homes from charging electric bike batteries and the like. There have been several
    major fires from burning batteries at electric scooter hire companies.

    You are mistaken. EVs don't use lithium batteries. They are too dangerous.

    Gasoline or even diesel fueled vehicles are a danger at all times. The airport garage file at Stavanger, Norway was started by a diesel Opal.

    https://insideevs.com/news/392047/bloomberg-ev-fire-cause-diesel/

    You should not compare electric bikes and skateboards to BEVs. If you don't have information on BEVs, then don't try to make connections that don't exist.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to david.brown@hesbynett.no on Sun Feb 20 17:33:34 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 12:58:06 +0100, David Brown
    <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

    On 19/02/2022 20:41, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:08:10 -0800 (PST), Rick C
    <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:17:05 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 08:04:54 +0000, Jeff Layman
    <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 19/02/2022 03:08, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    <https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/>

    I didn't get past the first paragraph. Quote "EV battery fires are
    chemically comparable to thermite fires, hot enough to melt steel, so >>>>> there may not be much left to analyse by the time the ship fire finally >>>>> burns itself out."

    An extrapolation too far. There are quite a few reports on the internet >>>>> of investigations into EV battery fires. The temperatures reached are >>>>> around 1000C, perhaps 1200C in some cases. That's not enough to melt >>>>> steel, just to soften and weaken it. Thermite reaches around 2500C, >>>>> which is not too far off the /boiling/ point of iron. The chemistry of >>>>> combustion is entirely different too.
    A lithium battery fire is hot enough to soften steel to the point that >>>> a steel structure will collapse, even if the steel does not melt.

    If this were not true, there would be no blacksmiths, and all iron
    articles would be cast.

    For instance at an airport in Norway in January 2020. Here is a
    report on the incident from the Norwegians. The effect of ICE fuels
    is also addressed. This fire is thought to have started in an old
    diesel car, but it could just as well been a Tesla - we have lots of
    examples.

    .<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6juEM8UTsc>

    "Investigation of a massive fire in a multi-storey car park in Norway" >>>> - Ragni Fjellgaard Mikalsen, 22 June 2021.

    Lol! I like the fact that you show an example of gasoline fires destroying a huge garage to support the idea that lithum-ion battery fires are dangerous. "It could just as well been" lithium batteries!

    Most likely there were a few BEVs in that garage. The report you link says they don't know how many vehicles total and they don't know how many BEVs. So not much of a report. They did say the BEVs did not contribute to the fire any more than
    gasoline cars as reported by the fire fighters.

    I think the take away from this is, they need to park the gasoline cars somewhere else so the BEVs are safe from the gasoline fires. Er det ikke sant?

    The original question was if such fires can bring a building down, the
    claim being that this was impossible. But it turns out to have
    happened multiple times, with films and investigations to prove it.

    Also note that such parking structures are very common in airports
    around the world, and it was quite uncommon for a vehicle fire to
    spread to such a degree, to the point of taking the building down,
    until very recently.

    EVs are quite common in Norway. And I bet the Norwegians know
    *exactly* what kind of vehicles were destroyed, from vehicle
    registration records and insurance claims and/or lawsuits. Not to
    mention parking-garage records, and audits of licence plate number
    inventories taken every night (to prevent embezzlement). Even if the
    car was totally destroyed, it would be pretty easy to make the case
    that the car was lost in that fire. Wonder why they didn't want to
    say.


    Of course they know exactly which cars were destroyed in the fire. They
    even know exactly which car started the fire - a deseil Opel Zafira,
    which is a model implicated in several other fires.

    Although I don't know the numbers myself, I would expect there were a
    good many electric cars in the parking house. However, a high
    proportion of these would be found in the spaces with chargers which was
    on the other side of the building from where the fire started.

    If you want to read the full report, it's available here ><https://www.dsb.no/globalassets/dokumenter/rapporter/andre-rapporter/rise-rapport-2020_43_evaluering-av-brann-i-parkeringshus-pa-stavanger-lufthavn-sola_2020-06-26.pdf>

    Of course, most of it is in Norwegian.

    Got it - 100 pages. I can sorta read Norwegian, but it's very slow so
    I use google translate a lot.


    The report concludes there was nothing to indicate that electric
    vehicles made the fire worse in comparison to conventional vehicles (nor
    was there any reason to suspect that conventional vehicles were worse).

    For comparison, I looked into the US equivalent, the National Fire
    Protection Association (NFPA), which is also a de jure
    standards-making organization.

    .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fire_Protection_Association>

    They sorta agreed, but did make the point that EV battery fires
    developed far faster, making fighting such fires far more stressful.

    The also made the point that modern cars have far more plastic in
    them, about 10% by weight, and plastic burns with considerable release
    of energy.

    Plastic gas tanks also rupture in the heat, but this wasn't a lot
    different from a metal tank as to when the fuel leaks out.


    The prime reasons for the scale of the destruction are found in the
    building construction - no sprinklers, and too little space between
    cars. Like most car fires, petrol or electric, it was mostly the rest
    of the cars that burned. Petrol tanks and batteries are both well
    protected and isolated, and are often not involved in the fire.
    (Exploding petrol tanks are for Holywood, not reality.)

    The more basic point is that what had been adequate for a parking
    garage is no longer adequate.

    I would guess that the solution in Norway will be to upgrade the
    sprinkler systems for much greater water flow, and also to drench a
    far larger area when triggered by the heat of a fire, to keep nearby
    vehicles from joining the fun.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Mon Feb 21 10:03:03 2022
    On 20/02/2022 23:33, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 12:58:06 +0100, David Brown

    The prime reasons for the scale of the destruction are found in the
    building construction - no sprinklers, and too little space between
    cars. Like most car fires, petrol or electric, it was mostly the rest
    of the cars that burned. Petrol tanks and batteries are both well
    protected and isolated, and are often not involved in the fire.
    (Exploding petrol tanks are for Holywood, not reality.)

    The more basic point is that what had been adequate for a parking
    garage is no longer adequate.

    I would guess that the solution in Norway will be to upgrade the
    sprinkler systems for much greater water flow, and also to drench a
    far larger area when triggered by the heat of a fire, to keep nearby
    vehicles from joining the fun.

    The parking house in question is being completely rebuilt. But in
    general, you are correct that sprinkler systems need updating (or
    installing, for places that didn't have one before). The rules for
    spacing between cars are also being changed, AFAIK, though I haven't
    bothered finding out the details. Bigger gaps would reduce the spread.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)