• Re: Can anyone explain how this battery charger works?

    From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 12:55:51 2022
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 13 20:33:34 2022
    XPost: sci.electronics.basics, uk.d-i-y, alt.home.repair

    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 15:07:12 2022
    Commander Kinsey wrote:
    =====================

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor.

    ** Shame about the odd markings.
    Those aren't shown in the pictures.

    ** Not YOUR charger ??
    How deceitful.


    Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    ** Nope.

    Would only act on a short or reverse connected battery.

    One cell shorted,

    ** Is a short.

    Fuck off you bullshitting, charlatan IDIOT.



    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 15:02:03 2022
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.
    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    It won't do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.

    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 14:54:07 2022
    Commander Kinsey wrote:
    =====================


    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.

    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    ** It's "self resetting".

    Goes high resistance when hot and drops backs when cool.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor.

    ** Shame about the odd markings.

    Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    ** Nope.

    Would only act on a short or reverse connected battery.


    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 16:10:47 2022
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.
    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    It won't do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
    Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.
    It's the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It's worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I'm converting the battery packs to
    LiIon.

    My point is this circuit isn't setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse. It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power. The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on
    more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode
    across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That's all they do is indicate the presence of power.

    In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely. That's why the fuse is not needed for a shorted
    cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn't enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Sun Feb 13 16:31:44 2022
    jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    =========================================

    I didn't expect two completely different devices to look identical.
    So how the fuck am I supposed to tell which one is?

    Try an ohmmeter.

    ** That requires an IQ.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 16:42:20 2022
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:39:08 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:59:33 -0000, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 22:47:41 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
    <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 21:56:55 -0000, jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 9:16:58 PM UTC, Custos Custodum wrote: >>>> On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 12:52:31 -0800 (PST), jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> >>>> wrote:
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 8:33:42 PM UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>>> >> https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    What else might that yellow thing be, other than a capacitor?

    A thermistor or a VDR, to provide current limiting.
    Regarding operation, power diodes tend to have a higher Vf than small >>>> signal diodes or transistor junctions, so once the diode goes into
    conduction it produces a large enough voltage to turn on the
    transistor and the red LED, indicating that charging is taking place. >>>> The green LED merely indicates that power is applied to the circuit.

    My (probably futile) hope was that he might answer it himself,
    or at least try to...

    I didn't expect two completely different devices to look identical. So how the fuck am I supposed to tell which one is?

    Try an ohmmeter.
    Not so easy when in the middle of a big circuit.

    One end of it is connected only to the battery which I believe you can remove.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to gnuarm.del...@gmail.com on Sun Feb 13 16:36:05 2022
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    ===========================


    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.


    ** Red LED comes on when charging due to forward drop across the 1A diode.
    Green LED comes on when charging complete due to voltage rise on pack.

    The pak charges via the 1A diode ONLY.
    Same diode protects cct from reverse pak connection.



    .... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 16:59:38 2022
    Commander Kinsey wrote:
    =======================

    Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.


    ** Well, that is because they ARE !!

    NiCd charging is always constant current with voltage increase or temp sensing.
    Lead acid charging is constant voltage with a current limit.

    When a NiCd cell approaches full charge, the voltage rises above 1.25V to about 1.45V then DROPS again as it heats severely.
    OTOH, as a nominal 2.2V lead acid cell approaches full charge current flow drops suddenly and voltage peaks out at 2.7V
    It then out gasses.

    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From williamwright@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Feb 14 00:54:02 2022
    XPost: sci.electronics.basics, uk.d-i-y, alt.home.repair

    On 14/02/2022 00:47, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell
    makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

    They are vastly different.

    Bill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 17:24:36 2022
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.
    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    It won't do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
    Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.
    It's the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It's worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I'm converting the battery packs to
    LiIon.

    My point is this circuit isn't setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
    It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it's a 5 hour charge, it won't harm the battery to just keep going.
    It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
    Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
    The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base on
    the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That's all they do is indicate the presence of power.
    Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
    In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
    Ah, you beat me to it.
    That's why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn't enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
    Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

    THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

    Is that clear?

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sun Feb 13 20:30:57 2022
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 10:04:23 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.
    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    It won't do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
    Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.
    It's the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It's worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I'm converting the battery packs
    to LiIon.

    My point is this circuit isn't setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
    It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it's a 5 hour charge, it won't harm the battery to just keep going.
    It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
    Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse.
    The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the base
    on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That's all they do is indicate the presence of power.
    Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
    In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
    Ah, you beat me to it.
    That's why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn't enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
    Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

    THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

    Is that clear?
    Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

    [other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may be reading this in another group]
    Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit. Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current, you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total. Yeah, that's going
    to push some unreasonable current though the power pack, so the fuse is needed.

    Exactly which quirks where those?

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 13 23:48:56 2022
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com :
    = fucking MORON
    ===========================

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit.
    Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current,
    you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total.


    ** What do you think the fucking 1A DIODE in series does ??

    Whistle Dixie ???

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 10:19:38 2022
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 2:49:05 AM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com :
    = fucking MORON
    ===========================

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit.
    Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current,
    you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total.

    ** What do you think the fucking 1A DIODE in series does ??

    Whistle Dixie ???

    LOL Now he doesn't even understand the circuit. Try looking at the schematic and tell me what the diode will do if the battery is connected in reverse?

    I guess we all get old in our old age.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Feb 14 10:17:38 2022
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 1:32:58 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 04:30:57 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 10:04:23 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.
    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    It won't do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
    Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.
    It's the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It's worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I'm converting the battery
    packs to LiIon.

    My point is this circuit isn't setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
    It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it's a 5 hour charge, it won't harm the battery to just keep going.
    It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
    Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse. >> >> > The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the
    base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That's all they do is indicate the presence of power.
    Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
    In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
    Ah, you beat me to it.
    That's why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn't enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
    Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

    THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

    Is that clear?
    Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

    [other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may be reading this in another group]
    Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit. Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current, you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total. Yeah, that's
    going to push some unreasonable current though the power pack, so the fuse is needed.
    Since the battery pack, like any cordless drill, has a semicircle shaped connector, it cannot possibly be connected backwards.

    Did the guy designing the board know that would be the case? Even connecting a shorted battery is much worse than a single shorted cell. I don't get why you are arguing this.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to gnuarm.del...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 13:02:29 2022
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    = fucking MORON

    ===========================

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit.
    Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current,
    you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total.

    ** What do you think the fucking 1A DIODE in series does ??

    Whistle Dixie ???

    LOL Now he doesn't even understand the circuit. Try looking at the schematic and tell me what the diode will do if the battery is connected in reverse?

    ** Stop current flow back into the charging circuit.
    The battery will charge in reverse and soon go reverse polarity.
    The PTC ( aka Polyfuse) will not act.

    This is NOT a stand alone charger - but incorporated inside a tool.
    So the NiCd pak cannot be easily reverse connected.


    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 13:55:53 2022
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 1:02:37 PM UTC-8, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    = fucking MORON

    ===========================

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit.
    Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current,
    you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total.

    ** What do you think the fucking 1A DIODE in series does ??

    Whistle Dixie ???

    LOL Now he doesn't even understand the circuit. Try looking at the schematic and tell me what the diode will do if the battery is connected in reverse?
    ** Stop current flow back into the charging circuit.
    The battery will charge in reverse and soon go reverse polarity.
    The PTC ( aka Polyfuse) will not act.

    This is NOT a stand alone charger - but incorporated inside a tool.
    So the NiCd pak cannot be easily reverse connected.

    Still not a good idea to have the battery charging the charger, when power is off.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 14:06:27 2022
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 4:02:37 PM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    = fucking MORON

    ===========================

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit.
    Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current,
    you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total.

    ** What do you think the fucking 1A DIODE in series does ??

    Whistle Dixie ???

    LOL Now he doesn't even understand the circuit. Try looking at the schematic and tell me what the diode will do if the battery is connected in reverse?
    ** Stop current flow back into the charging circuit.
    The battery will charge in reverse and soon go reverse polarity.
    The PTC ( aka Polyfuse) will not act.

    I figured you would say something like that. The diode will not prevent current from flowing if the battery is backwards. In that case the power pack and battery both are pushing current in the same direction which the diode will happily conduct.

    It will however, prevent current from flowing back into a charger that is unplugged from the power source.

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 14:18:16 2022
    Does anyone know what is going on with this Peeler guy or gal? Peeler's posts seem very hateful without any purpose whatsoever. Just rants with no substance.

    I know, I know, you are wondering how these posts stand out in s.e.d? But I think these posts stand out even here. Not a lot of difference from Phil's sort of obscene rants, but there's no technical content at all!

    This person reminds me of some of the loonies in c.l.f. But even those people aren't this detached from reality.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Mon Feb 14 23:21:38 2022
    On 2022-02-14 22:55, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 1:02:37 PM UTC-8, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    = fucking MORON

    ===========================

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit.
    Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current,
    you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total.

    ** What do you think the fucking 1A DIODE in series does ??

    Whistle Dixie ???

    LOL Now he doesn't even understand the circuit. Try looking at the schematic and tell me what the diode will do if the battery is connected in reverse?
    ** Stop current flow back into the charging circuit.
    The battery will charge in reverse and soon go reverse polarity.
    The PTC ( aka Polyfuse) will not act.

    This is NOT a stand alone charger - but incorporated inside a tool.
    So the NiCd pak cannot be easily reverse connected.

    Still not a good idea to have the battery charging the charger, when power is off.

    Considering the charger is a simple transformer and diode bridge, maybe
    with a capacitor, there should be no issue. But this circuit itself
    would be powered by the battery. The green led would light, perhaps.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 15:35:12 2022
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:

    ==========================

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.

    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.
    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.



    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 15:38:28 2022
    gnuarm.delusional MORON :

    =========================

    Does anyone know what is going on with this Peeler guy or gal?


    ** He is OUTING a trolling, cross posting, nym shifiting fuckwit.

    Peeler's posts seem very hateful without any purpose whatsoever.

    ** The purpose is obvious to all non TROLLS.


    This person reminds me of some of the loonies in c.l.f.

    ** Your close relatives - right ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Feb 14 17:41:37 2022
    Commander Kinsey wrote:
    =====================

    Never heard of a shorted battery. Not all the cells at once.

    ** Happens regularly with NiCd cells.

    The pak will read near zero volts and refuse to charge normally.
    Some of the cells may show reverse voltage - up 2 V.

    Other cells may have a hard short - Cadmium whiskers shorting the plates. Google it - fuckhead.


    ...... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Tue Feb 15 01:26:29 2022
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 18:17:38 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 1:32:58 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 04:30:57 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 10:04:23 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 01:24:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 7:47:42 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:10:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 23:02:03 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 5:34:04 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 20:55:51 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor. How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    Maybe it's an AC battery? They are very useful for grid storage applications as long as you can control the phase.

    What makes you think that component is a capacitor? I'm assuming you drew the schematic.
    I've learned from someone on Quora that it's actually a PTC Fuse - a resettable semiconductor fuse.

    The second image in the link shows a brown disk, which I thought was a ceramic capacitor. Looks like it's to stop a busted battery from being overcharged when a cell has died.

    It won't do that. It is simply a fuse that prevents too high a current from flowing, such as if you connected the battery backwards.
    Surely a higher current would flow if the battery became 9 cells instead of 10 because one failed and became zero volts? Ever tried charging a car battery with 14V when it only contains 5 working cells? The others boil.
    I'm not sure what this circuit is supposed to do. It doesn't look right to me.
    It's the (5 hour) charger for a very cheap cordless drill. The input is a 14.4V wall wart. The output is to a pack of NiCad cells. It's worked fine for years, until I can no longer find replacement NiCad cells, so I'm converting the battery
    packs to LiIon.

    My point is this circuit isn't setting the voltage or limiting current other than through the fuse.
    It will be limited by the wall wart, which is a basic transformer and diodes. Since it's a 5 hour charge, it won't harm the battery to just keep going.
    It appears to be a couple of LEDs that indicate the battery is charging and/or has power.
    Yes, the battery is basically just charged through the diode and fuse. >> >> >> > The diode will prevent the transistor from ever turning on more than a tiny amount, but with the gain of the transistor the red LED is turned on with a small current in the transistor BE path. It could be more clear if you redraw it with the
    base on the right, the resistor to the right of that and the diode across the two. The two resistors and the green LED probably should be on the left, where power comes in. That's all they do is indicate the presence of power.
    Yeah it was just a quick sketch to try to understand it.
    In any event, it is the wall wart that would seem to be doing all the work of charging the battery, setting the max current and the max voltage just by having a significant series resistance most likely.
    Ah, you beat me to it.
    That's why the fuse is not needed for a shorted cell. Being at 11V instead of 14V isn't enough to make the current jump so much. A short or reversed battery is a different matter.
    Unless NiCads are vastly different to car batteries, one shorted cell makes a hell of a lot more current flow.

    THE WALL WART LIMITS THE CURRENT AND PREVENTS ANY ISSUES FROM A SINGLE SHORTED CELL.

    Is that clear?
    Yes, so why have the semiconductor fuse at all?

    [other groups reinstated to stop you limiting the audience - others may be reading this in another group]
    Oh, you use google groups. My god man get a newsreader program.

    As I said, when you reverse connect the battery, you double the voltage in the circuit. Rather than having a difference of a couple of volts in the EMF opposing the current, you now have a voltage that is perhaps 10 times that total. Yeah, that's
    going to push some unreasonable current though the power pack, so the fuse is needed.
    Since the battery pack, like any cordless drill, has a semicircle shaped connector, it cannot possibly be connected backwards.

    Did the guy designing the board know that would be the case?

    Well I guess the board could be used for many things. It's voltage dependant or the LEDs would fail, so it has to be used a for a roughly 14.4V battery pack, which is usually a drill.

    Even connecting a shorted battery is much worse than a single shorted cell. I don't get why you are arguing this.

    Never heard of a shorted battery. Not all the cells at once.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 18:08:40 2022
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 6:35:20 PM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:

    ==========================

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.
    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.
    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.

    You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you? DIODE. I'm talking about the DIODE.

    The BE junction of the transistor and a resistor are across the diode. This way as the current to the battery increases, the diode limits the voltage across the BE junction and resistor, limiting the increase in BE current and therefore the current in
    the collector and the LED. Otherwise the LED current would vary a great deal more than it does in this circuit which allows the LED to light more evenly during the charging time.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 20:40:33 2022
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:
    ==========================

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.
    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.

    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.

    You didn't understand a thing I wrote,


    ** It was full of ABSURD FUCKING CRAP

    like you !!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 20:51:06 2022
    On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 11:40:41 PM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:
    ==========================

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.
    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.

    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.

    You didn't understand a thing I wrote,
    ** It was full of ABSURD FUCKING CRAP

    like you !!!

    And yet you can't argue the facts since you fail to understand them. So, instead you attack the person you are discussing with. That's my Phil. A true expert at being obtuse.

    Whatever. I used to enjoy trying to reason with you, knowing you would most likely explode in a frenzied rage, but hoping you might at some point be able to discuss the reality of a situation. But after repeated, childlike outbursts, it is clear you
    are incapable of change.

    You shout profanities and insults rather than discuss the facts. I don't know why I expect anything different.

    I have seen many idiots and lunatics on the Internet, but, if nothing else, you are one of a kind.

    --

    Rick C.

    +++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 14 22:10:20 2022
    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:34:44 AM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:
    ==========================

    BEWARE : DELUSIONAL SCHIZO

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.

    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.

    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.

    You didn't understand a thing I wrote,
    ** It was full of ABSURD FUCKING CRAP

    like you !!!

    And yet you can't argue the facts
    ** ROTFL - WHAT FUCKING FACTS ??????

    You rabid,nut case loopy notions ARE NOT FACTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Whatever. I used to enjoy trying to reason with you
    ** Whaaaaaaattttt ????

    Go fuck your self - you despicable POS asshole.

    Yuuuupppp. Of his meds again. Or maybe he's on the meths again? Hard to tell. But it is clear he is totally incapable of discussing anything rationally. I wonder how he keeps a roof over his head?

    --

    Rick C.

    ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 21:34:36 2022
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:
    ==========================

    BEWARE : DELUSIONAL SCHIZO


    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.

    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.

    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.

    You didn't understand a thing I wrote,
    ** It was full of ABSURD FUCKING CRAP

    like you !!!

    And yet you can't argue the facts

    ** ROTFL - WHAT FUCKING FACTS ??????

    You rabid,nut case loopy notions ARE NOT FACTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Whatever. I used to enjoy trying to reason with you


    ** Whaaaaaaattttt ????

    Go fuck your self - you despicable POS asshole.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Tue Feb 15 07:01:46 2022
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:10:20 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:34:44 AM UTC-5, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    gnuarm.delusional MORON rote:
    ==========================

    BEWARE : DELUSIONAL SCHIZO

    The reality is the 1 amp diode is there to limit the current through the transistor
    base and so the collector which feeds the LED. So the 1amp diode is limiting the LED current.

    ** TOTAL CRAP YOU IDIOT

    It senses battery charge current.

    At a low enough value, the BJT will turn off and the LED go out.

    You didn't understand a thing I wrote,
    ** It was full of ABSURD FUCKING CRAP

    like you !!!

    And yet you can't argue the facts
    ** ROTFL - WHAT FUCKING FACTS ??????

    You rabid,nut case loopy notions ARE NOT FACTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Whatever. I used to enjoy trying to reason with you
    ** Whaaaaaaattttt ????

    Go fuck your self - you despicable POS asshole.

    Yuuuupppp. Of his meds again. Or maybe he's on the meths again? Hard to tell. But it is clear he is totally incapable of discussing anything rationally. I wonder how he keeps a roof over his head?

    Maybe he knows the difference between off and of. There's a lot of money in proofreading.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Tue Feb 15 12:19:47 2022
    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
    Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
    disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
    output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
    current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
    resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
    to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
    the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
    they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
    temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
    them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
    the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
    DOES flow through the capacitors

    see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
    divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
    down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
    is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
    Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
    top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
    input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
    is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
    tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
    with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25 milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
    = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
    (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
    larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
    and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
    holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more
    expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.

    --

    Rick C.

    ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Wed Feb 16 07:05:36 2022
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote: >> > On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
    Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
    disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
    output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
    current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
    resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
    to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
    the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
    they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
    temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
    them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
    the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
    DOES flow through the capacitors

    see
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
    divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
    down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
    is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
    voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
    Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
    top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
    input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
    is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
    tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
    with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever >> > the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
    milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
    = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
    (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
    larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
    and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
    resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
    holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see
    https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more
    expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.

    I prefer cheap to safe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Feb 16 07:28:11 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
    Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
    disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
    output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
    current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
    the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
    they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
    temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause >> >> them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
    the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
    DOES flow through the capacitors

    see
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
    divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
    down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
    voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
    Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
    top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
    input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
    tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
    with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
    the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
    milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 / >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
    larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
    and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
    resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
    holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see
    https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more
    expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.
    I prefer cheap to safe.

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Thu Feb 17 04:53:20 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
    Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
    disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
    output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
    current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its >> >> >> resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance >> >> >> to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
    the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
    they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
    temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause >> >> >> them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
    the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
    DOES flow through the capacitors

    see
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
    divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
    down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it >> >> > is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
    voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
    Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
    top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
    input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference >> >> > is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
    tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
    with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
    the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
    milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R >> >> > = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 / >> >> > (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
    larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
    and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
    resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
    holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see
    https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years. >> >
    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more
    expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.
    I prefer cheap to safe.

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.

    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Wed Feb 16 22:24:16 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave >> >> > Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow >> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the >> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high >> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
    resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
    to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through >> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which >> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
    temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
    them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see >> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it >> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors

    see
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
    divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it >> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
    is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum >> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
    Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the >> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the >> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
    is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few >> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor, >> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
    the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25 >> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
    = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
    (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a >> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety, >> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting >> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from >> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see
    https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is more
    expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.
    I prefer cheap to safe.

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current. The lightbulbs are sold through retail
    establishments that expect a level of quality and safety. A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He
    finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos

    --

    Rick C.

    --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Thu Feb 17 09:56:20 2022
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave >> >> >> > Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow >> >> >> >> disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the >> >> >> >> output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high >> >> >> >> current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
    resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
    to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through >> >> >> >> the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which >> >> >> >> they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room
    temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
    them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see >> >> >> >> the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it >> >> >> > DOES flow through the capacitors

    see
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage
    divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it >> >> >> > down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
    is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum >> >> >> > voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors.
    Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the >> >> >> > top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the >> >> >> > input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
    is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few >> >> >> > tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor, >> >> >> > with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
    the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25 >> >> >> > milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
    = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
    (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a >> >> >> > larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety, >> >> >> > and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting >> >> >> > resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from >> >> >> > holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see
    https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is
    more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.
    I prefer cheap to safe.

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.

    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.

    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.

    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.

    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos

    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Rick C on Thu Feb 17 12:00:40 2022
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.

    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Thu Feb 17 06:51:37 2022
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 2:05:50 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 20:19:47 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:01:20 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:04:34 -0000, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
    On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:13:04 -0800, dpl...@coop.radagast.org (Dave
    Platt) wrote:

    In article <op.1hjp1...@ryzen.lan>,
    Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
    https://imgur.com/a/b8l5qKQ

    Look at the circuit diagram. The positive of the battery is only connected through a capacitor.
    How can a capacitor possibly pass DC current to allow the battery to charge?

    I don't believe that it could.

    My guess is that schematic misinterprets the nature of the yellow
    disc. I suspect that it's not a capacitor at all, but is a
    positive-temperature-coefficient thermistor - a "soft fuse". If the
    output (to the battery) is accidentally short-circuited, the high
    current flow through the PTC will cause it to heat up, increasing its
    resistance, causing it to heat up even faster, causing its resistance
    to increase even more... and thus limiting the current flow through
    the short circuit. These PTCs usually have a "hold current" (which
    they will allow to pass for an unlimited amount of time, at room >> >> >> >> temperature) and a "trip current" which will heat them enough to cause
    them to limit the current.

    Since we don't have a profile view of this component and can't see
    the markings, I can't tell for sure.

    It is called "resonant charging" and the current is pulses - so it
    DOES flow through the capacitors

    see
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327260616/figure/download/fig2/AS:664444522733570@1535427327725/Lossless-Resonant-Charging-Circuit.png

    Nowhere in there does the current for the load have to pass through a capacitor.

    Or it could be a TPS as described here:

    A transformerless power supply (TPS) is basically just a voltage >> >> >> > divider that takes the 115 or 220 VAC from your wall and divides it
    down to whatever voltage you want. If that voltage needs to be DC, it
    is rectified through a few diodes, and maybe regulated to a maximum
    voltage but we’ll get to that in a minute.

    Normally, DC voltage dividers are made with a pair of resistors. >> >> >> > Combined, they define the current flowing through the path, and the
    top resistor can then be chosen to drop the difference between the
    input voltage and the desired output. If, in our case, that difference
    is some one or two hundred volts, even if it only has to pass a few
    tens of milliamps, that resistor is going to get hot fast.

    A better component to use in the top of the divider is a capacitor,
    with its reactance chosen to give the desired “resistance” at whatever
    the mains frequency is where you live. For example, say you want 25
    milliamps out at 5 V, and you’re in America and need to drop 110 V. R
    = V / I = 4,400 O. Using the reactance of a capacitor, that’s C = 1 /
    (2 * pi * 60 Hz * 4400) = 0.6 µF. If you need more current, use a
    larger capacitor, and vice-versa. It’s that easy!

    A fully elaborated TPS design requires a few more parts. For safety,
    and to limit inrush current, a fuse and a one-watt current-limiting
    resistor on the input are a good idea. A large-value discharge
    resistor in parallel with the reactive capacitor will keep it from
    holding its high voltage and shocking you when the circuit is
    unplugged.

    see
    https://hackaday.com/2017/04/04/the-shocking-truth-about-transformerless-power-supplies/

    But nowadays they're electronic. Switched mode has been around for years.

    So have nuclear reactors. Both are more expensive than what the Chinese suppliers pay for these cheap and dangerous power supplies. Switched power converters are significantly more expensive. Even a properly designed transformerless supply is
    more expensive which is why the dangerous units are sold.

    Don't forget to check my spelling.
    I prefer cheap to safe.

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Thu Feb 17 06:50:05 2022
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out. The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb significantly less efficient. No one
    buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

    Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John S@21:1/5 to Rick C on Thu Feb 17 13:30:11 2022
    On 2/17/2022 8:50 AM, Rick C wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
    consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out. The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb significantly less efficient. No one
    buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

    Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.


    ...as in Do you want your fibrillation at 50 or 60 Hz?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Fri Feb 18 07:06:17 2022
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.

    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Fri Feb 18 07:19:00 2022
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:50:05 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
    consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out. The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb significantly less efficient. No one
    buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

    Being current limited is of no utility in this case.

    That's what LEDs need, duh.

    When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people.

    They usually fail open circuit actually.

    It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

    Actually it's 80mA. And assuming you have the nancy boy circuit breakers, they stop it at 30-50mA.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Rick C on Fri Feb 18 12:13:35 2022
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
    consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.

    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
    where are you getting 20% ?


    No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

    Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.

    Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

    What are you on about now?



    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Feb 18 07:21:24 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet,
    you may end up a dead duck. What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?

    --

    Rick C.

    -++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Fri Feb 18 07:27:16 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they >> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    15W phone chargers are high end and typically cost a lot more and are built well. The cheap phone chargers are the ones that have the capacitive dropper design.


    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.
    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
    where are you getting 20% ?

    The resistors added to a capacitive dropper.


    No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
    Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.

    Lol. So how do you check that? Light bulbs have specific labeling on the package to tell you how many watts it uses and how many lumens it produces. Granted, many don't have a clue as to how to use those numbers, but for those who do they are there.
    The best you will find on a cell phone charger is the amps drawn from the power line which is always inflated in my experience. I guess that's a safety thing? Dunno, but it is worthless for calculating efficiency.


    Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.
    What are you on about now?

    Nothing you need to worry about. Go back to sleep.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Fri Feb 18 16:43:47 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet,
    you may end up a dead duck.

    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.

    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?

    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Fri Feb 18 16:46:47 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they
    consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.

    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

    It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

    where are you getting 20% ?

    No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.

    Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.

    Being current limited is of no utility in this case. When that cheap capacitor in the cheap power supply fails, the output becomes high voltage frying devices and people. It only takes a few mA to stop the heart.

    What are you on about now?

    He appears to be a little girl afraid of electricity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Fri Feb 18 16:48:46 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:27:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they >> >> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.
    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    15W phone chargers are high end and typically cost a lot more and are built well. The cheap phone chargers are the ones that have the capacitive dropper design.

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.
    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.
    where are you getting 20% ?

    The resistors added to a capacitive dropper.

    Then the resistor is too big. The capacitor should be doing all the work. I have a 15W LED bulb that's lasted or years, the resistor only outputs 1 watt.

    No one buys cell phone chargers by their efficiency.
    Noone wants one that runs smoking hot. Everyone wants an efficient phone charger.

    Lol. So how do you check that? Light bulbs have specific labeling on the package to tell you how many watts it uses and how many lumens it produces. Granted, many don't have a clue as to how to use those numbers, but for those who do they are there.

    LED bulbs are pretty much all the same efficiency.

    The best you will find on a cell phone charger is the amps drawn from the power line which is always inflated in my experience. I guess that's a safety thing? Dunno, but it is worthless for calculating efficiency.

    How can that possibly be a safety thing?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Feb 18 09:56:41 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet,
    you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice, you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI. A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit
    with both hands, one on each conductor.

    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.

    --

    Rick C.

    +--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Fri Feb 18 20:08:31 2022
    On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they >>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

    the phone "charger" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
    that's why it hasn't exploded yet.

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.

    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

    It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

    Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
    less material, also they can sell more if they don't last too long.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sat Feb 19 18:48:44 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the feet,
    you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,

    Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.

    you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.

    They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

    A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.

    That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.

    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.

    They also shriek at the slightest pain.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Sat Feb 19 18:52:35 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:08:31 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units
    waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they >>>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the
    current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

    the phone "charger" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
    that's why it hasn't exploded yet.

    Even my high spec 18650 cells recommend charging at 1.5A. And those aren't enclosed in a phone.

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.

    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

    It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

    Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
    less material, also they can sell more if they don't last too long.

    They won't sell more. They either get them returned costing them money, or the customer never uses that brand again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Feb 19 11:12:36 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the
    feet, you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
    Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
    you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.
    They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

    Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

    A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
    That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.

    Unfortunately...


    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
    They also shriek at the slightest pain.

    Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

    I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

    --

    Rick C.

    +--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sat Feb 19 21:54:44 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:12:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote: >> >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the
    feet, you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice, >> Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
    you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.
    They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

    Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

    Just because you're too stupid to install it in the fusebox doesn't mean they don't exist. The entire UK has one of these (apart from houses like mine which have fuses):
    https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00ZJIQhmgWwwoj/2p-25A-30mA-Hyundai-RCCB-Residual-Current-Circuit-Breaker-ELCB.jpg
    Protects against overcurrent and earth leakage.

    Perhaps the USA is behind the times, perhaps you don't realise there are countries, better countries, outside of yours.

    A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
    That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.

    Unfortunately...

    It proves it's not dangerous.

    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
    They also shriek at the slightest pain.

    Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

    They shriek at everything.

    I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

    Then why the fuck did you reply? That's utterly childish, replying THEN killfiling me. No doubt you've got one of those shit killfiles that doesn't block responses to me, so you'll read this when someone else replies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kimberly Richards@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Sat Feb 19 21:56:48 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:54:44 -0000, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:12:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote: >>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out the
    feet, you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice, >>> Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
    you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.
    They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

    Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

    Just because you're too stupid to install it in the fusebox doesn't mean they don't exist. The entire UK has one of these (apart from houses like mine which have fuses):
    https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00ZJIQhmgWwwoj/2p-25A-30mA-Hyundai-RCCB-Residual-Current-Circuit-Breaker-ELCB.jpg
    Protects against overcurrent and earth leakage.

    Perhaps the USA is behind the times, perhaps you don't realise there are countries, better countries, outside of yours.

    A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
    That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here. >>
    Unfortunately...

    It proves it's not dangerous.

    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
    They also shriek at the slightest pain.

    Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

    They shriek at everything.

    I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

    Then why the fuck did you reply? That's utterly childish, replying THEN killfiling me. No doubt you've got one of those shit killfiles that doesn't block responses to me, so you'll read this when someone else replies.

    Like me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Kimberly Richards on Sat Feb 19 14:37:43 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:57:01 PM UTC-5, Kimberly Richards wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:54:44 -0000, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:12:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out
    the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
    Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
    you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI. >>> They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

    Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

    Just because you're too stupid to install it in the fusebox doesn't mean they don't exist. The entire UK has one of these (apart from houses like mine which have fuses):
    https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00ZJIQhmgWwwoj/2p-25A-30mA-Hyundai-RCCB-Residual-Current-Circuit-Breaker-ELCB.jpg
    Protects against overcurrent and earth leakage.

    Perhaps the USA is behind the times, perhaps you don't realise there are countries, better countries, outside of yours.

    A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
    That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.

    Unfortunately...

    It proves it's not dangerous.

    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
    They also shriek at the slightest pain.

    Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

    They shriek at everything.

    I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

    Then why the fuck did you reply? That's utterly childish, replying THEN killfiling me. No doubt you've got one of those shit killfiles that doesn't block responses to me, so you'll read this when someone else replies.
    Like me.

    That shows how stupid he is. I never said anything about kill filing him. I just said I won't be responding to him. He has to be one of the most stupid people here and that includes the likes of DLUNU and Cursitor Dumb.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sun Feb 20 00:13:05 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 22:37:43 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:57:01 PM UTC-5, Kimberly Richards wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:54:44 -0000, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:12:36 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:48:58 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 17:56:41 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:43:59 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:21:24 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:06:28 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:51:37 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:56:32 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 06:24:16 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 11:53:34 PM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:28:11 -0000, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the current.
    Actually I have an old one which is just a capacitor dropper. The capacitor recently exploded so I opened it up and replaced it with a larger one.
    The lightbulbs are sold through retail establishments that expect a level of quality and safety.
    I'm not stupid enough to buy anything through an expensive retail establishment.
    A typical wall wart isn't and doesn't regulate anything very well. The junk that are sold on the Internet are literally death traps. Watch one of Big Clive's tear-downs on various products. He finds dangerous stuff all the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/Bigclive/videos
    I've watched a lot of his stuff, but I've never had a problem with a cheapo Chinese USB supply like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303876456847
    Mind you I'm not scared of electricity.

    Yeah, sure. Enjoy.
    I've had several 240V shocks. That's all they are, a shock. Your muscles jump. Big fucking deal.

    Wow! It's not often you find people who are so ignorant. You didn't have the electricity pass through your heart. If it goes in one finger and out another on the same hand, no big deal, but in one hand and out the other or in a hand and out
    the feet, you may end up a dead duck.
    I've had it in all directions. In one hand the hand gets warm, no muscles in your hand. One hand to the other, your arms do a Mexican wave, it's quite funny. Not painful at all.
    What is the lethal current, 10 mA or so?

    You strike me as a particularly ignorant person. Willfully ignorant, you might say. Is that right?
    You're the ignorant one, it's 80mA (and only with a weak heart), why do you think breakers trip at 30mA? Which by the way means you cannot die if you have breakers. I have fuses because I'm not a girl.

    Yes, willfully ignorant. Not only do you appear to ignore safety advice,
    Safety advice is for the weak and frail scaredycats.
    you don't understand the difference between a "breaker" and a GFCI.
    They tend to go together, you either have them both in the box, or they're part of the same unit.

    Complete rubbish. I have several houses, all with GFCI and none have it in the circuit breaker panels. GFCI outlets can protect the entire string of outlets.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=GFCI+outlets

    Just because you're too stupid to install it in the fusebox doesn't mean they don't exist. The entire UK has one of these (apart from houses like mine which have fuses):
    https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00ZJIQhmgWwwoj/2p-25A-30mA-Hyundai-RCCB-Residual-Current-Circuit-Breaker-ELCB.jpg
    Protects against overcurrent and earth leakage.

    Perhaps the USA is behind the times, perhaps you don't realise there are countries, better countries, outside of yours.

    A GFCI will protect you if the current is flowing through you to ground, but not if you are in a live circuit with both hands, one on each conductor.
    That is very unlikely to happen, although I've done it and I'm still here.

    Unfortunately...

    It proves it's not dangerous.

    Yes, you are not a girl. Girls can understand science, engineering and medicine.
    They also shriek at the slightest pain.

    Certainly they shriek at an attempt to communicate with you.

    They shriek at everything.

    I'm done here. It is seldom that even in s.e.d anyone appears to be as willfully ignorant as you.

    Then why the fuck did you reply? That's utterly childish, replying THEN killfiling me. No doubt you've got one of those shit killfiles that doesn't block responses to me, so you'll read this when someone else replies.
    Like me.

    That shows how stupid he is. I never said anything about kill filing him. I just said I won't be responding to him. He has to be one of the most stupid people here and that includes the likes of DLUNU and Cursitor Dumb.

    Why are you referring to me in the third person?

    If you don't use a killfile to get rid of people you don't like, you're an idiot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Commander Kinsey on Mon Feb 21 03:52:52 2022
    On 2022-02-19, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:08:31 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a £4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units >>>>>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they >>>>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the >>>>>> > current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

    the phone "charger" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
    that's why it hasn't exploded yet.

    Even my high spec 18650 cells recommend charging at 1.5A. And those aren't enclosed in a phone.

    Well it's a fast charger. so it charges at about 1C (which seems to
    also be the fast-charge rate for lithium ion)

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or
    more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.

    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

    It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

    Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
    less material, also they can sell more if they don't last too long.

    They won't sell more. They either get them returned costing them
    money, or the customer never uses that brand again.

    Maybe if the customer can remember when they purchased the lamp,
    and notices the gradual dimming. pretty much the only place that has
    high efficiency LED lamps is Dubai.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Commander Kinsey@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Mon Feb 21 05:18:42 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 03:52:52 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-19, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:08:31 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-18, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:13:35 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:01:03 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote: >>>>>>> On 2022-02-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes, exactly. That's why it was disingenuous to post about the switched supplies. Saying, "nowadays they're electronic" would appear to be saying the transformerless supplies are not in use which is not correct.
    Never looked inside one in great detail. I assumed they were switched mode, since a 4 LED bulb from China is. Never tried looking inside a tiny one, like a plug in USB PSU.

    The light bulb has to be a switched device. Transformerless units >>>>>>> > waste a fair amount of power. Lightbulbs need to be efficient as they >>>>>>> > consume a fair amount of power and they also need to regulate the >>>>>>> > current.
    They consume a few watts, tens at most. not a lot of power.

    a capacitive dropper is inherently current limited.

    "A few watts" in most light bulbs is a lot more than a cell phone charger puts out.

    Phone charger 2.5W to 15W. LED lamp 3W to 30W. Same ballpark.

    A phone battery is 4V. 15 W would be charging it at 4A, you'd get an explosion.

    the phone "charger" label says 15W but when I measured it was closer to 13w, I guess
    that's why it hasn't exploded yet.

    Even my high spec 18650 cells recommend charging at 1.5A. And those aren't enclosed in a phone.

    Well it's a fast charger. so it charges at about 1C (which seems to
    also be the fast-charge rate for lithium ion)

    Ah ok, mine were 1/2C, Panasonic so I assumed the best.

    It's really hard to get 18650 in the UK. Ebay banned them (but not other Li Ion sizes!) and I could only find 1 other place that sold them, and three others at triple price! The place I got the tabbed ones from had a notice saying "Samsung has publicly
    denounced the selling of tagged batteries to end users", but they sold me them anyway. Do Samsung think we're idiots? The batteries even have on the side "this must not be installed or used by a customer". Er mustn't be used?!

    The purpose of LED light bulbs is to save power. Giving up 20% or >>>>>> more to the dissipative elements in a dropper makes the bulb
    significantly less efficient.

    So does overdriving the LEDs, but they do that to save money.

    It doesn't save money. I bought Cree (shittest company ever) bulbs, they lasted 1 month due to getting so fucking hot they couldn't be touched comfortably for even half a second. I sent them back 5 times, costing them a fortune.

    Saves the manufacturer money. they can achieve brihtness while using
    less material, also they can sell more if they don't last too long.

    They won't sell more. They either get them returned costing them
    money, or the customer never uses that brand again.

    Maybe if the customer can remember when they purchased the lamp,
    and notices the gradual dimming. pretty much the only place that has
    high efficiency LED lamps is Dubai.

    LED don't gradually dim, they just go off.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Sun Feb 20 21:57:59 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 11:01:00 PM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-19, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

    Even my high spec 18650 cells recommend charging at 1.5A. And those aren't enclosed in a phone.
    Well it's a fast charger. so it charges at about 1C (which seems to
    also be the fast-charge rate for lithium ion)

    For small devices they aren't going to spend too much effort on designing the charger. With lithium-ion batteries you can charge at faster rates if you tailor the rate to the state of charge during the charging process. With EVs they put a lot more
    effort into the design of the battery management system. There they tailor the charging rate to the temperature and the state of charge so the battery charge rate balances time to charge with battery life under all conditions. My car can reach 1.5C
    charging rate and other Tesla models reach 3C.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)