• "Pink" pages from color printer

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 7 21:44:20 2022
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste. E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink. And, this process continued as time went on. So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources: remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output. Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Feb 8 08:30:36 2022
    On 08/02/2022 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste.  E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink.  And, this process continued as time went on.  So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The only plausible one I can think of but it more usually affects
    inkjets is that the paper is some horrible grade that still has way too
    much alkali or acid on its fibres. The result is that the dye/pigment
    changes colour slightly as it dries or sets. Solid reactions are very
    much slower so it could be that is what was happening.

    Try taking some decent quality A4 paper into the library and see if
    using that makes a difference. If I didn't know you lived in a desert my
    other guess would have been high humidity messing up the colours.

    (again mostly affecting inkjets making them bleed)

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources:  remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output.  Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    My money would be on the paper it is printed onto followed by the wrong
    sort of toners in the printer (but that usually result in an immediately obvious colour cast right out of the printer).

    I have generally found colour lasers to be incredibly stable. I have a
    Dell 1320C which was one of the first cheap to run decently close to
    photo real lasers. On the right media it can still give a pretty good
    output even by todays standards. Inkjet is better for photos and optical printing onto Fuji crystal mark archive is better still.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Feb 8 09:16:31 2022
    On 08/02/2022 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste.  E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink.  And, this process continued as time went on.  So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources:  remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output.  Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...
    I wonder if the operative came across a pack of very old copier paper?

    Maybe 55-60 years ago my dad brought home some paper from work which was
    for some or other document copying process. IIRC it would go pink on
    exposure to light - I imagine there was some chemical process to darken
    and fix this. We played with it for a while just putting objects on top
    to leave pink 'shadows', but had no way to fix it.

    It might have been Dyeline paper, that rings a bell.

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Feb 8 23:12:19 2022
    On 08/02/2022 15:44, Don Y wrote:
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste.  E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink.  And, this process continued as time went on.  So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources:  remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output.  Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    Maybe someone found some "photo paper" that was really not glossy inkjet
    paper but instead photographic printing paper that needs to be exposed
    on an enlarger and developed and fixed? If you don't put it in fixer I
    think it does something like that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Chris Jones on Tue Feb 8 19:05:31 2022
    On 2/8/2022 14:12, Chris Jones wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 15:44, Don Y wrote:
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste.  E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink.  And, this process continued as time went on.  So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources:  remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output.  Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    Maybe someone found some "photo paper" that was really not glossy inkjet paper but instead photographic printing paper that needs to be exposed
    on an enlarger and developed and fixed? If you don't put it in fixer I
    think it does something like that.

    I think this is the most likely scenario.

    But Don, why not just ask C to enjoy the nice pink colour.... :-)
    (recently I had ordered for myself a new pair of gloves on Aliexpress
    and guess what, instead of the expected black I got them
    purplish-pink ... Lucy would have enjoyed them tremendously. Ordered
    again, this time (today) they came black. May be it has been my
    mistake after all).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 8 18:43:02 2022
    Am 08.02.22 um 10:16 schrieb Clive Arthur:

    Maybe 55-60 years ago my dad brought home some paper from work which was
    for some or other document copying process.  IIRC it would go pink on exposure to light - I imagine there was some chemical process to darken
    and fix this.  We played with it for a while just putting objects on top
    to leave pink 'shadows', but had no way to fix it.

    We played this with Tektronix / Polaroid film and Pechblende (Uranium ore).

    Cheers, Gerhard.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Feb 8 11:31:33 2022
    On 2/8/2022 1:30 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 04:44, Don Y wrote:

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The only plausible one I can think of but it more usually affects inkjets is that the paper is some horrible grade that still has way too much alkali or acid on its fibres. The result is that the dye/pigment changes colour slightly
    as it dries or sets. Solid reactions are very much slower so it could be that is what was happening.

    Note that there should have been no pigment applied in these parts
    of the page (the other, identical, printer left them white as intended).

    So, you're thinking that the exposure to the Magenta toner left enough
    of an "invisible" (to the fuser!) layer of toner that it eventually "bloomed"?

    Try taking some decent quality A4 paper into the library and see if using that
    makes a difference. If I didn't know you lived in a desert my other guess would
    have been high humidity messing up the colours.

    Note that the other printer -- located about 15 feet from the problem
    printer -- likely was stocked with the same paper (and toner cartridges)
    as the problem printer. Recall, this is a branch library so they don't
    have a variety of different paper/toner stocks on hand to mix up...

    (again mostly affecting inkjets making them bleed)

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources: remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output. Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    My money would be on the paper it is printed onto followed by the wrong sort of
    toners in the printer (but that usually result in an immediately obvious colour
    cast right out of the printer).

    Had the discoloration been present "from the start", I could have imagined
    a light leak or other problem in the processing. The fact that it "grew"
    on the pages -- like watching an image appear on an old Polaroid -- is
    the puzzling part.

    [While troubleshooting this, another patron used the printer to print
    some text documents -- despite being advised of the problem. As he
    finished, I asked him how they looked. He happened to have the most
    recent document in his hand and held it up for us to see: "Fine!"
    Then, thumbed through the rest of them and noticed that they were
    turning various shades of pink, based on time since processed.
    "Oh, well. I'm sending this stuff to the IRS so let them deal
    with it!" (I don't recall any prohibition against sending in tax
    documents on pink paper!)]

    I have generally found colour lasers to be incredibly stable. I have a Dell 1320C which was one of the first cheap to run decently close to photo real lasers. On the right media it can still give a pretty good output even by todays standards. Inkjet is better for photos and optical printing onto Fuji crystal mark archive is better still.

    I had a pair of (solid ink) Phasers that loved. But, each time I
    fired one up, the house smelled of "burnt crayons". And, there is
    a significant startup cost (in ink) associated with this.

    I had a color laser (also labeled a "Phaser") that didn't produce nearly
    the vibrant colors that the solid ink Phasers produced (output from
    them felt like glossy pages out of a magazine).

    Plus, a couple of wide-body ink jets. But, ink would always dry up and
    risk clogging the heads (heads weren't replaced with the ink supply
    like on the HP units).

    And, a little Sony thermal-dye-transfer "postcard printer" that I use
    to print photos. It's tiny so I can keep it in a desk drawer!

    I decided that I could better spend the time *walking* to the local
    service bureau and having things printed there than messing around with maintaining my own (color) printers.

    [I have a pair of B&W, low-temperature lasers that suffice for printing "disposable" stuff]

    I queue up the stuff that needs to be "professionally" printed and
    handle it all in one visit -- every few months, or so. (I have
    just such a trip planned for this afternoon for some greeting cards
    I've made -- Valentine's Day and other assorted holidays/events)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Clive Arthur on Tue Feb 8 11:55:33 2022
    On 2/8/2022 2:16 AM, Clive Arthur wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 04:44, Don Y wrote:
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste. E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink. And, this process continued as time went on. So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources: remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output. Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...
    I wonder if the operative came across a pack of very old copier paper?

    It's a public library (branch) so likely sees a fair bit of turnover.

    The "letter size" drawer holds ~2000 sheets and I imagine it is a daily
    or weekly chore to verify the paper supplies are up to capacity for
    each of the printers (library staff uses them for their "business
    needs", as well).

    The "non-public" portion of the building is rather small -- mainly
    for sorting incoming "returns" and processing "new titles". So,
    it's not likely that they have some oddball paper hiding in a dark corner
    of a disused storage closet.

    [And, they are resupplied by the main library a few times weekly
    so no incentive to keep many "supplies" on hand]

    Maybe 55-60 years ago my dad brought home some paper from work which was for some or other document copying process. IIRC it would go pink on exposure to light - I imagine there was some chemical process to darken and fix this. We played with it for a while just putting objects on top to leave pink 'shadows',
    but had no way to fix it.

    It might have been Dyeline paper, that rings a bell.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Chris Jones on Tue Feb 8 12:18:55 2022
    On 2/8/2022 5:12 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 15:44, Don Y wrote:
    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    Maybe someone found some "photo paper" that was really not glossy inkjet paper
    but instead photographic printing paper that needs to be exposed on an enlarger
    and developed and fixed? If you don't put it in fixer I think it does something
    like that.

    Again, this is a branch library. They only have on-hand the supplies that
    the main library thinks they should need to provide their services.

    While staff aren't rocket scientists, I think they would notice that
    one of the four reams of paper each printer holds was "packaged
    differently" than the others (that they've been using for years).

    But, the delayed aspect of the manifestation does suggest some
    sort of (slow) "chemical" process.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 8 12:26:00 2022
    On 2/8/2022 10:05 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/8/2022 14:12, Chris Jones wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 15:44, Don Y wrote:
    My other half printed a bunch of stuff at the local library,
    today (I've long ago discarded all of our color printers as
    they were used so infrequently that they didn't justify the
    space they occupied nor the effort to maintain!).

    Immediately after the prints were "delivered", they looked
    fine.

    But, within minutes, started taking on a very noticeable pink
    caste. E.g., even the white/blank areas became very noticeably
    pink. And, this process continued as time went on. So much
    so that the prints weren't usable.

    The flaw is most definitely NOT in the source materials as
    they were later reprinted on another (same make/model) printer
    and have not exhibited this phenomenon.

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources: remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output. Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    Maybe someone found some "photo paper" that was really not glossy inkjet
    paper but instead photographic printing paper that needs to be exposed on an >> enlarger and developed and fixed? If you don't put it in fixer I think it
    does something like that.

    I think this is the most likely scenario.

    But Don, why not just ask C to enjoy the nice pink colour.... :-)

    <frown> Had the image been printed edge-to-edge, she *might* not have
    noticed it "under" her artwork. But, given that it was prominently
    displayed *surrounding* her artwork, it would be easier to culture
    snowballs for a July "fight" than convince her that the intended content
    wasn't altered, in some way.

    It's all *my* fault, actually. I encouraged her to take photos of
    her work to document how each evolves. At 10c/page, you can't
    beat the library's prices -- esp when you want *large* images!
    In the past, I've been the gopher to handle the actual printing for
    her. In *this* case, she came along to learn how to do it.

    Thankfully.

    Had I come home with pink pages (because I failed to examine them
    LONG after they had been printed), I'd have been tasked with doing
    them over. <frown>

    (recently I had ordered for myself a new pair of gloves on Aliexpress
    and guess what, instead of the expected black I got them
    purplish-pink ... Lucy would have enjoyed them tremendously. Ordered
    again, this time (today) they came black. May be it has been my
    mistake after all).

    Back in the days of Vinyl, I purchased an album that came on *yellow*
    ("gold"), transparent vinyl. I thought this was the norm for the
    album -- a gimmick, of sorts.

    Apparently not as many of my friends had *black* vinyl of the same
    title (in the same sleeve) and wondered where I had *ordered* the
    gold one! "I bought it at The Coop just like most of my vinyl"

    <shrug>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Feb 9 11:21:51 2022
    On 08/02/2022 18:31, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/8/2022 1:30 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 04:44, Don Y wrote:

    I could understand if some unintended color had appeared in
    the output immediately after being delivered by the printer.
    But, can't imagine what sort of "process" allows a color to
    gradually manifest after-the-fact.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The only plausible one I can think of but it more usually affects
    inkjets is that the paper is some horrible grade that still has way
    too much alkali or acid on its fibres. The result is that the
    dye/pigment changes colour slightly as it dries or sets. Solid
    reactions are very much slower so it could be that is what was happening.

    Note that there should have been no pigment applied in these parts
    of the page (the other, identical, printer left them white as intended).

    So, you're thinking that the exposure to the Magenta toner left enough
    of an "invisible" (to the fuser!) layer of toner that it eventually "bloomed"?

    I'm begining to wonder if they have loaded the photocopier with paper
    intended for a blueprint copier laced with ferocyanide. That's a bit
    pink but is from the outset. Printing a blank page should be definitive.

    Try taking some decent quality A4 paper into the library and see if
    using that makes a difference. If I didn't know you lived in a desert
    my other guess would have been high humidity messing up the colours.

    Note that the other printer -- located about 15 feet from the problem
    printer -- likely was stocked with the same paper (and toner cartridges)
    as the problem printer.  Recall, this is a branch library so they don't
    have a variety of different paper/toner stocks on hand to mix up...

    So there are two identical printers one does it and one doesn't?

    (again mostly affecting inkjets making them bleed)

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources:  remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output.  Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    My money would be on the paper it is printed onto followed by the
    wrong sort of toners in the printer (but that usually result in an
    immediately obvious colour cast right out of the printer).

    Had the discoloration been present "from the start", I could have imagined
    a light leak or other problem in the processing.  The fact that it "grew"
    on the pages -- like watching an image appear on an old Polaroid -- is
    the puzzling part.

    That hints at chemistry of some sort going on in the still warm toner
    and paper interface. What exactly I don't know. It is even weirder if it
    can affect the areas of the paper that have no toner on.

    [While troubleshooting this, another patron used the printer to print
    some text documents -- despite being advised of the problem.  As he finished, I asked him how they looked.  He happened to have the most
    recent document in his hand and held it up for us to see:  "Fine!"
    Then, thumbed through the rest of them and noticed that they were
    turning various shades of pink, based on time since processed.
    "Oh, well.  I'm sending this stuff to the IRS so let them deal
    with it!"  (I don't recall any prohibition against sending in tax
    documents on pink paper!)]

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the
    fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    I have generally found colour lasers to be incredibly stable. I have a
    Dell 1320C which was one of the first cheap to run decently close to
    photo real lasers. On the right media it can still give a pretty good
    output even by todays standards. Inkjet is better for photos and
    optical printing onto Fuji crystal mark archive is better still.

    I had a pair of (solid ink) Phasers that loved.  But, each time I
    fired one up, the house smelled of "burnt crayons".  And, there is
    a significant startup cost (in ink) associated with this.

    I remember those. We were used to calibrate them for Western skin
    immediately before Western VIP visits when in Japan. The default
    settings otherwise made them look very drunk with bright pink faces.

    I had a color laser (also labeled a "Phaser") that didn't produce nearly
    the vibrant colors that the solid ink Phasers produced (output from
    them felt like glossy pages out of a magazine).

    Plus, a couple of wide-body ink jets.  But, ink would always dry up and
    risk clogging the heads (heads weren't replaced with the ink supply
    like on the HP units).

    The Dell can do photoreal well enough for small runs if used with
    exactly the right paper to match its toner texture. I find the HP
    colourchoice 120gsm ideal for promotional materials.

    My trusty Canon i6500 A3 has survived nearly 2 years of barely being
    used and still printed OK recently when I needed it. Admittedly it did
    need a deep cleaning cycle before all the jets were working.

    And, a little Sony thermal-dye-transfer "postcard printer" that I use
    to print photos.  It's tiny so I can keep it in a desk drawer!

    I decided that I could better spend the time *walking* to the local
    service bureau and having things printed there than messing around with maintaining my own (color) printers.

    [I have a pair of B&W, low-temperature lasers that suffice for printing "disposable" stuff]

    I have a Samsung 2550 duplex for bulk mono and the Dell for colour.

    I queue up the stuff that needs to be "professionally" printed and
    handle it all in one visit -- every few months, or so.  (I have
    just such a trip planned for this afternoon for some greeting cards
    I've made -- Valentine's Day and other assorted holidays/events)

    Exhibition quality printing Fuji crystal mark paper is the bees knees I
    have stuff printed for a centenary in 2006 that still hasn't faded and
    has been on display in diffuse ever since. By comparison laser tone that
    has been in direct sunlight for a couple of years now is showing some degradation of the magenta and especially yellow. Absorbing blue photons
    is a tough call for any organic pigment. Inkjet fails even faster I can
    see signs of fade on inkjet posters up for just a couple of months.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Feb 9 08:27:02 2022
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 18:31, Don Y wrote:

    Note that there should have been no pigment applied in these parts
    of the page (the other, identical, printer left them white as intended).

    So, you're thinking that the exposure to the Magenta toner left enough
    of an "invisible" (to the fuser!) layer of toner that it eventually "bloomed"?

    I'm begining to wonder if they have loaded the photocopier with paper intended
    for a blueprint copier laced with ferocyanide. That's a bit pink but is from the outset. Printing a blank page should be definitive.

    Again, it's a branch library, not a print shop, etc. The only paper they
    are likely to have on hand is paper that the main library has supplied.
    The main library similarly has "vanilla" printing needs.

    So, THEY would have had to acquired it "by accident" and passed it along.

    *And*, the local branch would have had to have installed it in ONLY that
    one printer/copier. (possible if something like a single ream)

    I am hoping to stop by, today, to order a couple of technical documents
    through their inter-library borrowing procedure. (doing so in person
    tends to have better results than using their web interface). I will
    inquire as to whether or not the problem has been fixed and, if so, how. Depending on who is "on staff", today, they may let me tinker with it
    (e.g., take some paper from the good printer and run through the bad one;
    and paper from the bad to run through the good)

    [Of course, *asking* them what was wrong will likely be met with an incomprehensible explanation -- whatever they captured from the
    servicing technician's explanation of the problem]

    Try taking some decent quality A4 paper into the library and see if using >>> that makes a difference. If I didn't know you lived in a desert my other >>> guess would have been high humidity messing up the colours.

    Note that the other printer -- located about 15 feet from the problem
    printer -- likely was stocked with the same paper (and toner cartridges)
    as the problem printer. Recall, this is a branch library so they don't
    have a variety of different paper/toner stocks on hand to mix up...

    So there are two identical printers one does it and one doesn't?

    Yes. Within feet of each other, working off the same image files from
    the server.

    The printers also allow printing direct from a thumb drive. The guy that
    I mentioned who printed his tax documents used that interface with the
    same "pink" results.

    My curiosity is also piqued to note if a similar "process" might be
    at work in the future; imagine the pink "developing" after hours or
    *days! THAT would truly be frustrating!

    (again mostly affecting inkjets making them bleed)

    [We verified this with different users printing different
    source material from different sources: remote PC app vs.
    directly from the printer's USB port]

    AFAICT, these are color lasers so the pigment should have been
    fused prior to output. Instead, they were perfectly white in
    the areas that were expected to be (and remain!) white.

    I'll make note of the make/model when next I visit the library
    to see if I can get any information from manufacturer, search
    engines, etc.

    'Tis a puzzlement...

    My money would be on the paper it is printed onto followed by the wrong sort
    of toners in the printer (but that usually result in an immediately obvious >>> colour cast right out of the printer).

    Had the discoloration been present "from the start", I could have imagined >> a light leak or other problem in the processing. The fact that it "grew"
    on the pages -- like watching an image appear on an old Polaroid -- is
    the puzzling part.

    That hints at chemistry of some sort going on in the still warm toner and paper
    interface. What exactly I don't know. It is even weirder if it can affect the areas of the paper that have no toner on.

    Well, technically, there can be tiny amounts of toner everywhere. Just
    never enough to rise to the point of being visible. So, something else was responsible for "developing" it.

    [While troubleshooting this, another patron used the printer to print
    some text documents -- despite being advised of the problem. As he
    finished, I asked him how they looked. He happened to have the most
    recent document in his hand and held it up for us to see: "Fine!"
    Then, thumbed through the rest of them and noticed that they were
    turning various shades of pink, based on time since processed.
    "Oh, well. I'm sending this stuff to the IRS so let them deal
    with it!" (I don't recall any prohibition against sending in tax
    documents on pink paper!)]

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the fuser
    and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored. It was a diffuse pink (instead of
    a bold/solid pink). But, very noticeable. If I left the sheets on a
    table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    I have generally found colour lasers to be incredibly stable. I have a Dell >>> 1320C which was one of the first cheap to run decently close to photo real >>> lasers. On the right media it can still give a pretty good output even by >>> todays standards. Inkjet is better for photos and optical printing onto Fuji
    crystal mark archive is better still.

    I had a pair of (solid ink) Phasers that loved. But, each time I
    fired one up, the house smelled of "burnt crayons". And, there is
    a significant startup cost (in ink) associated with this.

    I remember those. We were used to calibrate them for Western skin immediately before Western VIP visits when in Japan. The default settings otherwise made them look very drunk with bright pink faces.

    I had built custom ICM profiles for my printers, scanner and monitors to
    best approximate the "real" colors I was printing. Yet another aspect of printing color that wasted a lot of time! Now, I use the published
    profiles from the service bureau and tweek as necessary.

    I'm not trying to publish as much as making sure that when things *are* published, there are no surprises (amateur hour)

    I had a color laser (also labeled a "Phaser") that didn't produce nearly
    the vibrant colors that the solid ink Phasers produced (output from
    them felt like glossy pages out of a magazine).

    Plus, a couple of wide-body ink jets. But, ink would always dry up and
    risk clogging the heads (heads weren't replaced with the ink supply
    like on the HP units).

    The Dell can do photoreal well enough for small runs if used with exactly the right paper to match its toner texture. I find the HP colourchoice 120gsm ideal
    for promotional materials.

    My trusty Canon i6500 A3 has survived nearly 2 years of barely being used and still printed OK recently when I needed it. Admittedly it did need a deep cleaning cycle before all the jets were working.

    If I truly want photo real, I have photos printed. But, that is seldom the case. Even SWMBOs photos (the point of this exercise) are just intended to show the progression of a design and not be perfect representations.
    (there is more interest in consistency from print to print than in faithful color reproduction). She crops them to a smaller size and "pastes" (poor choice of word) them into a book where she can annotate and chronicle her
    work.

    The library only charges a dime per page (service bureau is closer to 70c)
    and it is typically more convenient to access -- this visit being an
    exception!

    And, a little Sony thermal-dye-transfer "postcard printer" that I use
    to print photos. It's tiny so I can keep it in a desk drawer!

    I decided that I could better spend the time *walking* to the local
    service bureau and having things printed there than messing around with
    maintaining my own (color) printers.

    [I have a pair of B&W, low-temperature lasers that suffice for printing
    "disposable" stuff]

    I have a Samsung 2550 duplex for bulk mono and the Dell for colour.

    I used to have a LaserJet 4MP+ w/duplexer for high volume monochrome printing. But, I so rarely print more than a sheet (or ten) that it wasn't worth the space it took up. The phasers also had duplexers -- and were considerably larger than the LJ!

    (while I miss having that capability on hand, I don't miss the *responsibility* for keeping it "available"!)

    I queue up the stuff that needs to be "professionally" printed and
    handle it all in one visit -- every few months, or so. (I have
    just such a trip planned for this afternoon for some greeting cards
    I've made -- Valentine's Day and other assorted holidays/events)

    Exhibition quality printing Fuji crystal mark paper is the bees knees I have stuff printed for a centenary in 2006 that still hasn't faded and has been on display in diffuse ever since. By comparison laser tone that has been in direct
    sunlight for a couple of years now is showing some degradation of the magenta and especially yellow. Absorbing blue photons is a tough call for any organic pigment. Inkjet fails even faster I can see signs of fade on inkjet posters up
    for just a couple of months.

    My goal is more temporary: "how will this look when I send it to the printer for reproduction, binding and distribution?"

    Having said that, I *do* keep the "pre-proofs" that I create -- in a sealed box away from light and heat. But, that's really just a sense of "false valuation" as I no longer *need* them; just hesitant to discard something that took
    effort to prepare.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Feb 9 17:40:37 2022
    On 09/02/2022 15:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through
    the fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored.  It was a diffuse pink (instead of
    a bold/solid pink).  But, very noticeable.  If I left the sheets on a table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    Ask them if you can take a clean sheet away and then try ironing it and
    if that doesn't work torture it a bit with a heat shrink wrap gun.

    ISTR you could sometimes get badly washed paper going a sort of pale
    lemon yellow when heated if there was too much trace acid like lemon or
    onion juice to make the wood pulp fibres discolour.

    One of the easier natural invisible inks much safer than cobalt chloride
    which is now very much discouraged as a probable carcinogen.

    I've not heard of one that turns paper magenta on heat exposure but it
    is just possible.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Feb 9 15:28:47 2022
    On 2/9/2022 10:40 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/02/2022 15:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the >>> fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored. It was a diffuse pink (instead of >> a bold/solid pink). But, very noticeable. If I left the sheets on a
    table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    Ask them if you can take a clean sheet away and then try ironing it and if that
    doesn't work torture it a bit with a heat shrink wrap gun.

    I happened to have one from my first "encounter" -- I had removed several sheets from the "tray" and manually fed through the sheet feeder option
    to see if there was something in the paper path that might apply (the
    paper tray being a foot or more below the actual printer)

    ISTR you could sometimes get badly washed paper going a sort of pale lemon yellow when heated if there was too much trace acid like lemon or onion juice to make the wood pulp fibres discolour.

    One of the easier natural invisible inks much safer than cobalt chloride which
    is now very much discouraged as a probable carcinogen.

    I've not heard of one that turns paper magenta on heat exposure but it is just
    possible.

    I inquired as to the printer's status:

    "Oh, it's fixed!"

    "Yes, but what was the PROBLEM?"

    "I don't know" (lack of curiosity is underwhelming!)

    "Did they *do* anything to the printer? Or, just change the paper?"

    "Oh, yes, they did something to the printer! It had this problem
    once before"

    (and you STILL weren't sufficiently curious to inquire as to the
    CAUSE????!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 10 09:39:11 2022
    In article <su1f7f$pk9$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    On 2/9/2022 10:40 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/02/2022 15:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the >>> fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored. It was a diffuse pink (instead of >> a bold/solid pink). But, very noticeable. If I left the sheets on a
    table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    Ask them if you can take a clean sheet away and then try ironing it and if that
    doesn't work torture it a bit with a heat shrink wrap gun.

    I happened to have one from my first "encounter" -- I had removed several sheets from the "tray" and manually fed through the sheet feeder option
    to see if there was something in the paper path that might apply (the
    paper tray being a foot or more below the actual printer)

    ISTR you could sometimes get badly washed paper going a sort of pale lemon yellow when heated if there was too much trace acid like lemon or onion juice
    to make the wood pulp fibres discolour.

    One of the easier natural invisible inks much safer than cobalt chloride which
    is now very much discouraged as a probable carcinogen.

    I've not heard of one that turns paper magenta on heat exposure but it is just
    possible.

    I inquired as to the printer's status:

    "Oh, it's fixed!"

    "Yes, but what was the PROBLEM?"

    "I don't know" (lack of curiosity is underwhelming!)

    "Did they *do* anything to the printer? Or, just change the paper?"

    "Oh, yes, they did something to the printer! It had this problem
    once before"

    (and you STILL weren't sufficiently curious to inquire as to the
    CAUSE????!)

    Given that most tech is indistinguishable from magic for most of the population, perhaps they dare not enquire too deeply for fear the
    witches will counter-attack...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Thu Feb 10 03:01:16 2022
    On 2/10/2022 2:39 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su1f7f$pk9$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    On 2/9/2022 10:40 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/02/2022 15:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the >>>>> fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored. It was a diffuse pink (instead of >>>> a bold/solid pink). But, very noticeable. If I left the sheets on a
    table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    Ask them if you can take a clean sheet away and then try ironing it and if that
    doesn't work torture it a bit with a heat shrink wrap gun.

    I happened to have one from my first "encounter" -- I had removed several
    sheets from the "tray" and manually fed through the sheet feeder option
    to see if there was something in the paper path that might apply (the
    paper tray being a foot or more below the actual printer)

    ISTR you could sometimes get badly washed paper going a sort of pale lemon >>> yellow when heated if there was too much trace acid like lemon or onion juice
    to make the wood pulp fibres discolour.

    One of the easier natural invisible inks much safer than cobalt chloride which
    is now very much discouraged as a probable carcinogen.

    I've not heard of one that turns paper magenta on heat exposure but it is just
    possible.

    I inquired as to the printer's status:

    "Oh, it's fixed!"

    "Yes, but what was the PROBLEM?"

    "I don't know" (lack of curiosity is underwhelming!)

    "Did they *do* anything to the printer? Or, just change the paper?"

    "Oh, yes, they did something to the printer! It had this problem
    once before"

    (and you STILL weren't sufficiently curious to inquire as to the
    CAUSE????!)

    Given that most tech is indistinguishable from magic for most of the population, perhaps they dare not enquire too deeply for fear the
    witches will counter-attack...

    I think they are just profoundly incurious. I would think -- given that
    this was a "repeat performance" -- that they would at least want to latch
    onto some "buzzwords" so the NEXT time it happened they could tell the technician: "Last time it was the frodinbinger that needed to be replaced!"

    I find that non-engineers tend to be uninterested in "details"... esp
    those of a technical nature!

    Neighbor had pneumatic suspension on his vehicle repaired -- to the
    tune of ~$4K. On hearing that, my reaction: "Wow! What was involved?"

    He just shrugged: "All I know is it cost me $4000!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 10 11:07:45 2022
    In article <su2nps$ook$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    On 2/10/2022 2:39 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su1f7f$pk9$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid says...

    On 2/9/2022 10:40 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/02/2022 15:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the
    fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored. It was a diffuse pink (instead of
    a bold/solid pink). But, very noticeable. If I left the sheets on a >>>> table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    Ask them if you can take a clean sheet away and then try ironing it and if that
    doesn't work torture it a bit with a heat shrink wrap gun.

    I happened to have one from my first "encounter" -- I had removed several >> sheets from the "tray" and manually fed through the sheet feeder option
    to see if there was something in the paper path that might apply (the
    paper tray being a foot or more below the actual printer)

    ISTR you could sometimes get badly washed paper going a sort of pale lemon
    yellow when heated if there was too much trace acid like lemon or onion juice
    to make the wood pulp fibres discolour.

    One of the easier natural invisible inks much safer than cobalt chloride which
    is now very much discouraged as a probable carcinogen.

    I've not heard of one that turns paper magenta on heat exposure but it is just
    possible.

    I inquired as to the printer's status:

    "Oh, it's fixed!"

    "Yes, but what was the PROBLEM?"

    "I don't know" (lack of curiosity is underwhelming!)

    "Did they *do* anything to the printer? Or, just change the paper?"

    "Oh, yes, they did something to the printer! It had this problem
    once before"

    (and you STILL weren't sufficiently curious to inquire as to the
    CAUSE????!)


    Years ago (pre-web and thus pre-wikipedia) a colleague mentioned in conversation that he had bought a clock with a chain fusee. Being a
    clock nerd I responded "ingenious mechanism". But he had no idea what it
    was, just a buzz-phrase...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Thu Feb 10 11:38:38 2022
    On 10/02/2022 11:07, Mike Coon wrote:

    <snip>

    Years ago (pre-web and thus pre-wikipedia) a colleague mentioned in conversation that he had bought a clock with a chain fusee. Being a
    clock nerd I responded "ingenious mechanism". But he had no idea what it
    was, just a buzz-phrase...

    And now, thanks to the web and Wikipedia, and probably along with most
    readers here, I join the ranks of those who know what it is.

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Clive Arthur on Thu Feb 10 15:18:48 2022
    On 2022-02-10 12:38, Clive Arthur wrote:
    On 10/02/2022 11:07, Mike Coon wrote:

    <snip>

    Years ago (pre-web and thus pre-wikipedia) a colleague mentioned in
    conversation that he had bought a clock with a chain fusee. Being a
    clock nerd I responded "ingenious mechanism". But he had no idea what it
    was, just a buzz-phrase...

    And now, thanks to the web and Wikipedia, and probably along with most readers here, I join the ranks of those who know what it is.


    Yep :-)

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Thu Feb 10 14:37:54 2022
    On 2/10/2022 4:07 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su2nps$ook$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    On 2/10/2022 2:39 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su1f7f$pk9$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    On 2/9/2022 10:40 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 09/02/2022 15:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/9/2022 4:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

    How pink did it get? Could be the paper is reacting to going through the
    fuser and so printing a blank page would suffer the same fate.

    Only the "exposed" side was discolored. It was a diffuse pink (instead of
    a bold/solid pink). But, very noticeable. If I left the sheets on a >>>>>> table, you would notice the discoloration from across the room.

    Ask them if you can take a clean sheet away and then try ironing it and if that
    doesn't work torture it a bit with a heat shrink wrap gun.

    I happened to have one from my first "encounter" -- I had removed several >>>> sheets from the "tray" and manually fed through the sheet feeder option >>>> to see if there was something in the paper path that might apply (the
    paper tray being a foot or more below the actual printer)

    ISTR you could sometimes get badly washed paper going a sort of pale lemon
    yellow when heated if there was too much trace acid like lemon or onion juice
    to make the wood pulp fibres discolour.

    One of the easier natural invisible inks much safer than cobalt chloride which
    is now very much discouraged as a probable carcinogen.

    I've not heard of one that turns paper magenta on heat exposure but it is just
    possible.

    I inquired as to the printer's status:

    "Oh, it's fixed!"

    "Yes, but what was the PROBLEM?"

    "I don't know" (lack of curiosity is underwhelming!)

    "Did they *do* anything to the printer? Or, just change the paper?"

    "Oh, yes, they did something to the printer! It had this problem
    once before"

    (and you STILL weren't sufficiently curious to inquire as to the
    CAUSE????!)


    Years ago (pre-web and thus pre-wikipedia) a colleague mentioned in conversation that he had bought a clock with a chain fusee. Being a
    clock nerd I responded "ingenious mechanism". But he had no idea what it
    was, just a buzz-phrase...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 09:08:40 2022
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home- learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s: <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view? usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Fri Feb 11 10:27:57 2022
    On 2/11/2022 2:08 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home- learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I try to make "unique" pieces -- i.e., quantity 1 -- often as gifts.
    Purchasing something that you could likely find in someone else's
    home/office doesn't cut it.

    I like it if you can't figure out that you are "in the presence of"
    a timepiece. Even moreso if you can't figure out how to tell
    time by it!

    (e.g., my sundial tells time at night, too!)

    Lately, I am trying to make the *mechanism* "invisible". E.g., the
    kinematic (Rube Goldberg) clock is driven by water power. The *timekeeping*
    is accomplished by a servo controlling the speed of the pump -- with the
    loop having an incredible lag (so, the control is challenging, in addition
    to the mechanism design/fabrication).

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s: <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view? usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>

    Display mechanisms are hard enough (for me); tackling a *timekeeping* mechanism mechanically would just be a huge effort. Kudos! I'm clueless about how to design the sundial mechanism so it will survive "the elements" and still function, as intended!

    My first (electronic) clock (~1977) was a simple hack on a COTS NatSemi "clock chip": demultiplexing the outputs to drive rings of 60 and 12 LEDs, respectively, for minutes and hour display (seconds was presented on the same ring as minutes to save on LEDs).

    A friend urged me to sell it -- completely missing the point that it was intended as a (unique) gift... for my future in-laws. Some years later,
    he bought me a commercial version of a similar design -- no doubt to
    drive home the fact that *I* could have been manufacturing these.

    <shrug>

    Once you consider putting a processor into the box, you get all sorts of "display" possibilities (the timekeeping is trivial, disciplined to
    the AC mains over the long term; newer designs use PTP for "ludicrous" synchronization -- to paraphrase Mel Brooks).

    I have Worlds-of-Wonder animatronic "toys" that speak the time (when
    asked), moving their mouth/eyes in sync with the uttered speech,

    <https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cd/0/ce/cd0dce0166a34eecb29381036435ff38.jpg> <https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/8c/c0/ab8cc04bf188558ab4afee7a28c277bf.jpg> <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/j-4AAOSw3O9geg3b/s-l300.jpg> <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/nUwAAOSw~bxfyXju/s-l300.jpg>
    (they synchronize their mechanisms to *whatever* they are tasked with speaking)

    the braille display, talking telephone/alarm clock (also keeps track
    of holidays and adjusts its messaging accordingly -- speech being a
    relatively cheap "display" mechanism that isn't constrained by size
    or shape), plus a bunch of oddball displays that are hard to characterize,
    etc.

    I'd like to use *glass* more in my displays (e.g., a mirror-faced version of that first clock design) but am learning that it is *really* hard to work
    with! Of course, that's part of the appeal (imagine drilling a ring of
    tightly spaced holes in a mirrored-glass face without cracking the glass!)

    It's fun to consider different ways of indicating the time that are easy to read (cuz you don't want to have to STUDY a display to sort out what it
    is indicating -- you just GLANCE at a typical clock!) and yet cryptic or aesthetically "appealing" in other ways.

    I'm redesigning the WoW "displays" so I can also incorporate CCTV cameras (instead of having cameras that are annoyingly visible in a room) and
    replacing the battery power (and connectivity) with PoE. After that,
    I'm hoping to fit the electronics packages in Furby's (cuz they are
    *so* much smaller and require considerably less power to animate)

    ["Vision" gives me a more precise way of identifying the positions of
    occupants in a room]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Fri Feb 11 20:44:24 2022
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home- learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s: <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view? usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Feb 11 21:48:27 2022
    On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
    "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc.  A multidecade
    counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
    layer of perf-board populated with discretes.  Almost more
    *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to
    stay together as an assembly that could be "handled")

    Well I can see that, I think I did that myself at some point
    (not sure if I built the counter or just read how it worked).

    I remember trying to make a reversible counter with 7400-s and
    it sort of worked (I was literally learning to walk); I wanted to
    synchronize an 8mm projector with a tape recorder, the counter
    was supposed to buffer the lag this or that way.
    IIRC by the time when I discovered the fact that the
    switches from both sensors must be debounced I had already
    been into other things... It was some learning exercise though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 12:20:58 2022
    On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
    "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc. A multidecade
    counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
    layer of perf-board populated with discretes. Almost more
    *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to
    stay together as an assembly that could be "handled")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 22:02:16 2022
    In article <su6eib$6hg$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

    On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep >>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but >>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
    "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc. A multidecade
    counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
    layer of perf-board populated with discretes. Almost more
    *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to

    My "digital" (display only) clock was an apprentice project so had to be properly documented, which I have somewhere...

    IIRC the crystal (in a constant-temperature oven) ran at 200kHz. The
    first four decade division was done via four free-running transistor multivibrators with a modified circuit: <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R4xHYMQoU6KTfPpdgV4lmR5L0Z0uplcy/view? usp=sharing>

    Then there were several dekatrons. And the display neon lamps were lit
    via a diode matrix that encoded the digit shapes with the matrix input
    supplied by several Strowger-type (I think) pulse-driven relays <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strowger_switch>

    So nothing that could be considered digital or even real logic circuits!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat Feb 12 02:11:41 2022
    On 2/12/2022 0:02, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su6eib$6hg$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

    On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid >>>>> says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep >>>>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but >>>>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
    "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc.  A multidecade
    counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
    layer of perf-board populated with discretes.  Almost more
    *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to

    My "digital" (display only) clock was an apprentice project so had to be properly documented, which I have somewhere...

    IIRC the crystal (in a constant-temperature oven) ran at 200kHz. The
    first four decade division was done via four free-running transistor multivibrators with a modified circuit: <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R4xHYMQoU6KTfPpdgV4lmR5L0Z0uplcy/view? usp=sharing>

    Then there were several dekatrons. And the display neon lamps were lit
    via a diode matrix that encoded the digit shapes with the matrix input supplied by several Strowger-type (I think) pulse-driven relays <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strowger_switch>

    So nothing that could be considered digital or even real logic circuits!

    Whoa. I would not have thought of such a division method, my instincts
    are purely digital when it comes to that sort of things.
    Of course at the time you did this (60-s?) I did not know what a
    transistor was, my first attempts to put something together were
    at the end of the 60-s/early 70-s. Back then my mom worked at a
    shop for diplomats (real currency only, no Bulgarian) and they had
    disposable wooden crates of Johnnie Walker... These were my source of
    material to build things, I built a tape-recorder (player, rather,
    recording never worked really) using spare parts I could buy
    for the mechanics... Contributed a lot of noise to the neighbourhood,
    I must have been 15. But I could not really design the preamp,
    I just put together things from a book (some Russian book for
    amateurs IIRC).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 18:19:19 2022
    On 2/11/2022 12:48 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep >>>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but >>>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
    "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc. A multidecade
    counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
    layer of perf-board populated with discretes. Almost more
    *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to
    stay together as an assembly that could be "handled")

    Well I can see that, I think I did that myself at some point
    (not sure if I built the counter or just read how it worked).

    I remember trying to make a reversible counter with 7400-s and
    it sort of worked (I was literally learning to walk); I wanted to
    synchronize an 8mm projector with a tape recorder, the counter
    was supposed to buffer the lag this or that way.
    IIRC by the time when I discovered the fact that the
    switches from both sensors must be debounced I had already
    been into other things... It was some learning exercise though.

    As a young kid, I used relays (and score-motors) from pinball
    machines to make "logic circuits". *Loud*! :>

    In high school, graduated to "analog computers" (school district
    didn't own a digital computer -- just a Wang programmable calculator)
    which was ... interesting.

    I much prefer being able to make really small devices and not have
    to worry about burnishing contacts, switches, etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 12 08:25:26 2022
    In article <su6tvt$cbj$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

    Whoa. I would not have thought of such a division method, my instincts
    are purely digital when it comes to that sort of things.
    Of course at the time you did this (60-s?) I did not know what a
    transistor was, my first attempts to put something together were
    at the end of the 60-s/early 70-s. Back then my mom worked at a
    shop for diplomats (real currency only, no Bulgarian) and they had
    disposable wooden crates of Johnnie Walker... These were my source of material to build things, I built a tape-recorder (player, rather,
    recording never worked really) using spare parts I could buy
    for the mechanics... Contributed a lot of noise to the neighbourhood,
    I must have been 15. But I could not really design the preamp,
    I just put together things from a book (some Russian book for
    amateurs IIRC).

    Yes, it was 1964. At the time my employer (International Computers and Tabulators = ICT) was building commercial computers (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICT_1301>) from discrete transistors,
    which I had a go at programming in the test bay.

    There were interesting early Russian computers too...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Feb 12 09:33:34 2022
    On 11/02/2022 17:27, Don Y wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 2:08 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I try to make "unique" pieces -- i.e., quantity 1 -- often as gifts. Purchasing something that you could likely find in someone else's
    home/office doesn't cut it.

    I like it if you can't figure out that you are "in the presence of"
    a timepiece.  Even moreso if you can't figure out how to tell
    time by it!

    (e.g., my sundial tells time at night, too!)

    My favourite hyper modern sundial has a digital display made possible by additive manufacturing. You can print it on a 3D printer. It has the
    advantage of the classical sundials that adjustment for daylight saving
    time is easy. Just rotate it by 15 degrees. eg

    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1068443
    (other brands are available)

    Lately, I am trying to make the *mechanism* "invisible".  E.g., the kinematic (Rube Goldberg) clock is driven by water power.  The
    *timekeeping*
    is accomplished by a servo controlling the speed of the pump -- with the
    loop having an incredible lag (so, the control is challenging, in addition
    to the mechanism design/fabrication).

    I once made a fairly accurate water clock for a lecture demo as the
    cylinder of revolution of a parabola cast in acrylic. If I had thought
    about it a little more carefully I would have made a triangular
    reservoir between two parallel sides instead (like the ancients did).

    It beat calibrated candles hands down!

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>



    Display mechanisms are hard enough (for me); tackling a *timekeeping* mechanism
    mechanically would just be a huge effort.  Kudos!  I'm clueless about
    how to
    design the sundial mechanism so it will survive "the elements" and still function, as intended!

    My first (electronic) clock (~1977) was a simple hack on a COTS NatSemi "clock
    chip":  demultiplexing the outputs to drive rings of 60 and 12 LEDs, respectively, for minutes and hour display (seconds was presented on the
    same
    ring as minutes to save on LEDs).

    My dad built one from components mostly salvaged from scrap ICL1900
    boards TI 74 series ICs with display drivers for the nixie tubes. It was surprising compact although it ran a bit warm to leave on continuously.
    I reckon it was probably in about 1972-3.

    A friend urged me to sell it -- completely missing the point that it was intended as a (unique) gift... for my future in-laws.  Some years later,
    he bought me a commercial version of a similar design -- no doubt to
    drive home the fact that *I* could have been manufacturing these.

    My friend - a very keen amateur astronomer had a digital clock custom
    built to keep sidereal time when digital LEDs first became available. It
    even had internal battery backup so it could be moved. It was a bit
    power hungry though. Had it been a couple of years later using CMOS and
    LCD rather than TTL and LEDs it would have been a lot easier to use!

    My own sidereal clock is based on a PIC 16877 which has just enough pins
    to bare metal drive a 4 segment LCD display and runs off a standard
    32768Hz watch crystal with digital adjustment to get the offset.

    These days any mobile phone or tablet has an app to show you the sky,
    satellite predictions and sidereal time so it is kind of redundant.

    It's fun to consider different ways of indicating the time that are easy to read (cuz you don't want to have to STUDY a display to sort out what it
    is indicating -- you just GLANCE at a typical clock!) and yet cryptic or aesthetically "appealing" in other ways.

    If you like interesting time pieces the Corpus Clock in Cambridge UK on
    King's Parade is well worth seeing. It is a Chronophage with a large
    scale grasshopper escapement and a very unusual pendulum motion.

    https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/about/corpus-clock/introduction-corpus-clock

    https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/articles/secrets-corpus-clock

    It is truly hypnotic to watch. Keeps perfect time but the pendulum
    motion is not a regular amplitude and the display idiosyncratic.

    There is a twin/cousin somewhere that was being made for the Chinese
    market but the timing of the recession meant that it may not have been completed. It's grasshopper escapement is in the form of a dragon.

    It was designed by engineer Dr John Taylor best known as inventor of the bimetallic kettle switch and various other interesting electromechanical devices.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 12 10:30:18 2022
    On 11/02/22 18:44, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.

    E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
    that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
    the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
    to see the emitted light!)

    I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
    the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.

    I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
    hourly indications.

    And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
    "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
    (water driven, from an "infinite well")

    I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
    current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
    display is without value)

    Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
    seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
    learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>

    I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
    with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
    <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
    usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>


    How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
    mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
    calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
    the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
    which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
    KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

    I have a a piece of Tektronix lab equipment which divides
    by 5 using 3 transistors plus many simple passive components.

    Basic principle is that a pulse deposits a glug of charge
    on a capacitor. The fifth glug raises the voltage above a
    threshold which causes the capacitor to be discharged and
    a pulse delivered to the next stage.

    That's sufficient to get a 5s period from a 10MHz oscillator.
    To get the 2ns period, they use several frequency doublers
    based on nuvistors, stray capacitance and bendable wires
    forming coupled inductors.

    FFI see the manual at https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/184

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sat Feb 12 08:34:22 2022
    On 2/12/2022 2:33 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 11/02/2022 17:27, Don Y wrote:
    I try to make "unique" pieces -- i.e., quantity 1 -- often as gifts.
    Purchasing something that you could likely find in someone else's
    home/office doesn't cut it.

    I like it if you can't figure out that you are "in the presence of"
    a timepiece. Even moreso if you can't figure out how to tell
    time by it!

    (e.g., my sundial tells time at night, too!)

    My favourite hyper modern sundial has a digital display made possible by additive manufacturing. You can print it on a 3D printer. It has the advantage
    of the classical sundials that adjustment for daylight saving time is easy. Just rotate it by 15 degrees. eg

    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1068443
    (other brands are available)

    Yeah, I saw that when I was researching sundial ideas. I settled on mine because it handles "after sunset" operation. (the implied "joke")

    Lately, I am trying to make the *mechanism* "invisible". E.g., the
    kinematic (Rube Goldberg) clock is driven by water power. The *timekeeping* >> is accomplished by a servo controlling the speed of the pump -- with the
    loop having an incredible lag (so, the control is challenging, in addition >> to the mechanism design/fabrication).

    I once made a fairly accurate water clock for a lecture demo as the cylinder of
    revolution of a parabola cast in acrylic. If I had thought about it a little more carefully I would have made a triangular reservoir between two parallel sides instead (like the ancients did).

    It beat calibrated candles hands down!

    But the "mechanism" is fixed. A viewer wouldn't wonder how it is adjusted
    to keep correct time.

    E.g., in the kinematic display, the rate of water flowing is the obvious calibration hook. But, you know an open-loop design just wouldn't work.
    So, the puzzle is how/where the display's status is sensed and how that
    is fed back to the pump (which obviously must exist to recirculate the
    water)

    For folks accustomed to designing loops, the interesting part would be the
    huge lag in the loop and the inherent variability of the mechanism
    (to wind, human intervention, etc.)

    My first (electronic) clock (~1977) was a simple hack on a COTS NatSemi "clock
    chip": demultiplexing the outputs to drive rings of 60 and 12 LEDs,
    respectively, for minutes and hour display (seconds was presented on the same
    ring as minutes to save on LEDs).

    My dad built one from components mostly salvaged from scrap ICL1900 boards TI 74 series ICs with display drivers for the nixie tubes. It was surprising compact although it ran a bit warm to leave on continuously. I reckon it was probably in about 1972-3.

    I used TTL to convert from the multiplexed output of the clock chip
    to my individual LEDs. Linear regulator so it got warm. Everything wire-wrapped inside a Lexan case that I'd made to show off it's
    internals.

    Biggest mistake (lack of foresight) was (deliberately) painting the
    back of the face black -- for a mirror-like finish. I hadn't considered\how much of a PITA it would be to keep clean (fingerprints).

    A friend urged me to sell it -- completely missing the point that it was
    intended as a (unique) gift... for my future in-laws. Some years later,
    he bought me a commercial version of a similar design -- no doubt to
    drive home the fact that *I* could have been manufacturing these.

    My friend - a very keen amateur astronomer had a digital clock custom built to
    keep sidereal time when digital LEDs first became available. It even had internal battery backup so it could be moved. It was a bit power hungry though.
    Had it been a couple of years later using CMOS and LCD rather than TTL and LEDs
    it would have been a lot easier to use!

    LCD displays are boring. I've thought of salvaging those electromechanical displays that sort of resemble split-flap displays (often used for
    sporting events to display times/scores VERY LARGE). But, they're
    relatively noisey so you wouldn't want one indoors.

    And, it would just be "yet another numeric display". <yawn>

    My own sidereal clock is based on a PIC 16877 which has just enough pins to bare metal drive a 4 segment LCD display and runs off a standard 32768Hz watch
    crystal with digital adjustment to get the offset.

    In school, I had a motorized mini-spotlight that would project a spot across the walls/ceiling as if an indoor sun. It was amusing to anyone who thought about it because it mimicked the Sun's motion -- yet paid no respect to
    the E-W orientation of its travel ("why does your Sun set in the North?")

    [Designs should always mess with peoples' heads -- at different levels.
    I have a rotary dial telephone -- that generates touch-tones. Simple
    to make. But, a user encountering it wonders: why the hell would
    you convert dial-pulses to touch tone instead of just using a pushbutton keypad?]

    These days any mobile phone or tablet has an app to show you the sky, satellite
    predictions and sidereal time so it is kind of redundant.

    Any "universal display" is boring. I recall seeing an app that has digits melting into their successors ("Dali clock"). Make a *physical* display that does that and I'll be impressed! But, writing a bit of code to sequence
    an animation is not really inspiring.

    It's fun to consider different ways of indicating the time that are easy to >> read (cuz you don't want to have to STUDY a display to sort out what it
    is indicating -- you just GLANCE at a typical clock!) and yet cryptic or
    aesthetically "appealing" in other ways.

    If you like interesting time pieces the Corpus Clock in Cambridge UK on King's
    Parade is well worth seeing. It is a Chronophage with a large scale grasshopper
    escapement and a very unusual pendulum motion.

    https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/about/corpus-clock/introduction-corpus-clock

    Mechanical. Beyond my abilities. I've resigned myself to simply *designing* my Rube Goldberg -- in CAD -- and requiring someone else to do the actual fabrication. It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
    limited to what *I* can fabricate.

    There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel
    proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
    to fabricate all of the components.

    [Ideally, I wouldn't want a new homeowner to consider it as "trash"
    and move to disassemble it.]


    https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/articles/secrets-corpus-clock

    It is truly hypnotic to watch. Keeps perfect time but the pendulum motion is not a regular amplitude and the display idiosyncratic.

    There is a twin/cousin somewhere that was being made for the Chinese market but
    the timing of the recession meant that it may not have been completed. It's grasshopper escapement is in the form of a dragon.

    It was designed by engineer Dr John Taylor best known as inventor of the bimetallic kettle switch and various other interesting electromechanical devices.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 12 16:06:29 2022
    In article <su8k2c$cbn$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...
    It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
    limited to what *I* can fabricate.

    There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
    to fabricate all of the components.

    I think of that as the approach of an architect...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat Feb 12 09:33:45 2022
    On 2/12/2022 9:06 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su8k2c$cbn$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...
    It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
    limited to what *I* can fabricate.

    There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel
    proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
    to fabricate all of the components.

    I think of that as the approach of an architect...

    Or any other "designer"/composer.

    But, if that's your "norm", then you can rationalize never *doing*
    anything -- just creating paper. Of course, that's the likely
    role of a REAL "architect" as the resources and skillsets they
    would need to erect a building would typically be beyond the
    means of an *individual*.

    That needn't be the case in *all* things!

    I've a friend who used to grumble about folks who would *say*
    "I'm remodeling my home" or "I'm putting on an addition" or
    "I'm tuning up my car"... when, in fact, they were simply WRITING
    CHECKS -- and someone ELSE was doing the actual work.

    "Well, of course! That's what I *meant*" (but not what you said)

    [Instead, describe these actions as "I'm HAVING SOMEONE remodel
    my home" or "I'm HAVING SOMEONE put on an addition"... to draw
    attention to the fact that you really aren't *doing* anything
    beyond deciding that you're willing to pay for that activity!
    "I've decided to have my house remodeled..."]

    There's an element of pride in being able to say I *did*
    this -- instead of "I paid someone else to do it for me"
    (that is my lament over having to hire-out the fabrication
    of the "Rube Goldberg") So, the design has to be heads
    and shoulders above to minimize that aspect of the "job".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 12 22:00:34 2022
    In article <su8nhj$35t$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    On 2/12/2022 9:06 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
    In article <su8k2c$cbn$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid says...
    It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
    limited to what *I* can fabricate.

    There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel >> proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
    to fabricate all of the components.

    I think of that as the approach of an architect...

    Or any other "designer"/composer.

    But, if that's your "norm", then you can rationalize never *doing*
    anything -- just creating paper. Of course, that's the likely
    role of a REAL "architect" as the resources and skillsets they
    would need to erect a building would typically be beyond the
    means of an *individual*.

    That needn't be the case in *all* things!

    I've a friend who used to grumble about folks who would *say*
    "I'm remodeling my home" or "I'm putting on an addition" or
    "I'm tuning up my car"... when, in fact, they were simply WRITING
    CHECKS -- and someone ELSE was doing the actual work.

    "Well, of course! That's what I *meant*" (but not what you said)

    [Instead, describe these actions as "I'm HAVING SOMEONE remodel
    my home" or "I'm HAVING SOMEONE put on an addition"... to draw
    attention to the fact that you really aren't *doing* anything
    beyond deciding that you're willing to pay for that activity!
    "I've decided to have my house remodeled..."]

    There's an element of pride in being able to say I *did*
    this -- instead of "I paid someone else to do it for me"
    (that is my lament over having to hire-out the fabrication
    of the "Rube Goldberg") So, the design has to be heads
    and shoulders above to minimize that aspect of the "job".

    The ultimate is probably a king who "built" a pyramid or a palace!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Mike Coon on Sat Feb 12 16:48:10 2022
    On 2/12/2022 3:00 PM, Mike Coon wrote:
    There's an element of pride in being able to say I *did*
    this -- instead of "I paid someone else to do it for me"
    (that is my lament over having to hire-out the fabrication
    of the "Rube Goldberg") So, the design has to be heads
    and shoulders above to minimize that aspect of the "job".

    The ultimate is probably a king who "built" a pyramid or a palace!

    I've found it pretty common in industry, too. Tales from friends
    whose boss's claimed to have "done" something -- that, in fact,
    *they* did. Always apparent when the boss is tasked with
    explaining the solution and dons the deer-in-headlights look.

    Oooops!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)