• Arduino Relay Board

    From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 16:47:53 2022
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs
    across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Wed Feb 2 22:28:54 2022
    Sylvia Else wrote:
    ===============

    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    ** So the relay is rated for 230/240V AC?

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    ** That is not enough clearance for 240V.

    Be fine for 12VDC or AC though.


    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    ** Then don't.


    ....... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Thu Feb 3 18:18:57 2022
    On 03-Feb-22 5:28 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
    Sylvia Else wrote:
    ===============

    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    ** So the relay is rated for 230/240V AC?

    Yes.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Coon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 11:07:51 2022
    In article <j618kbF9s19U1@mid.individual.net>, sylvia@email.invalid
    says...

    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I imagine you have something like Trading Standards with which you could
    raise a CE accreditation query. However it is a bit niche and they may reasonably give priority to verifying (e.g.) childs' toys...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Feb 3 11:11:04 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    It's hard to tell since it's just a bottom shot, but given the
    positioning, I'd hazard that's the flyback diode for when the coil field
    is collapsing.


    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    In the general sense, it it perfectly safe to use in arduino projects.

    Whether or not it is "safe" for the project you had in mind for it is
    another matter entirely.



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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From TTman@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Feb 3 11:15:37 2022
    On 03/02/2022 05:47, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.
    gap 240v to LVDC should be 5mm ?


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Johann Klammer@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Feb 3 15:27:01 2022
    On 02/03/2022 06:47 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.
    It's that self-certification thing, innit?
    In Principle anyone can slap a CE sign on a board.
    Consequences will only arise if somone complains.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tauno Voipio@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Feb 3 16:31:23 2022
    On 3.2.22 7.47, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    Are you sure that the label is the EU conformity label and not the
    very similar-looking China Export label.

    In principle, the EU CE label is a declaration by the manufacturer
    that the product conforms to the relevant safety requirements. It
    is up to the conscience of the manufacturer how well this is done.

    --

    -TV

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ralph Mowery@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 10:33:06 2022
    In article <stgovt$vqe$1@dont-email.me>, tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid says...

    Are you sure that the label is the EU conformity label and not the
    very similar-looking China Export label.

    In principle, the EU CE label is a declaration by the manufacturer
    that the product conforms to the relevant safety requirements. It
    is up to the conscience of the manufacturer how well this is done.




    You beat me to it.

    I was going to say that the CE was probably the China Export instead of
    the EU CE for safety.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 09:08:41 2022
    torsdag den 3. februar 2022 kl. 16.33.20 UTC+1 skrev Ralph Mowery:
    In article <stgovt$vqe$1...@dont-email.me>, tauno....@notused.fi.invalid says...

    Are you sure that the label is the EU conformity label and not the
    very similar-looking China Export label.

    In principle, the EU CE label is a declaration by the manufacturer
    that the product conforms to the relevant safety requirements. It
    is up to the conscience of the manufacturer how well this is done.



    You beat me to it.

    I was going to say that the CE was probably the China Export instead of
    the EU CE for safety.


    afaik the "China Export" is just an urban myth, in reality it was just someone that didn't follow the spec for how the CE mark should look

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 09:17:26 2022
    torsdag den 3. februar 2022 kl. 12.11.15 UTC+1 skrev Dan Purgert:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512
    Sylvia Else wrote:

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.
    It's hard to tell since it's just a bottom shot, but given the
    positioning, I'd hazard that's the flyback diode for when the coil field
    is collapsing.

    yes, looks like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Tolako-Arduino-Indicator-Channel-Official/dp/B00VRUAHLE

    who ever designed it obviously didn't spend much time thinking, because there is no reason for those tracks being routed that close to the output side

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fred Bloggs@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Feb 3 09:54:42 2022
    On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 12:48:02 AM UTC-5, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    If the ckt connected to the small race is truly isolated from mains gnd then the impedance is extremely high and any arc over cannot deliver any energy to speak of.


    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Feb 3 20:05:09 2022
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote in news:j618kbF9s19U1@mid.individual.net:

    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=
    0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the
    right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that
    runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It
    runs to a diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to
    believe that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    It runs on DC, right? Not an AC device form the looks and size of
    it.
    So "isolation" is all about "line isolation" on the AC side of a
    system.

    That appears to be DC driven, but you would isolate at the AC side
    of the DC supply, not at that PCB assy. Likely a dongle type,
    plastic encapsulated fully isolated wall wart. Many do not even have
    a transformer in them nowadays.

    And a diode across the relay drive circuit will quell any back EMF.
    For most relays. You could use an SSR. They make those pretty small
    form factor these days too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Fri Feb 4 22:24:50 2022
    On 2022-02-03, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Do they make any voltage claims for this module?

    As you say the diode trace goes close to the contact trace but they have
    about 4mm clearance between the exposed conductore. They've put solder
    mask and silk screen on the traces, I guess they're trying to call
    that silkscreen suplimental insulation, but it seems to stop short of
    where it should be. Maybe they are just apeing someone elses design
    which had better layout.

    More worrying, the exposed relay common contact pin is close to
    header pin 1, it looks like less than 2mm clearance there.

    Some designers will route a groove around the common pin to give
    better isolation between the coil and the contacts, but I much prefer
    relays that have the coil terminals at one end and the contacts at the
    other end.


    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Sat Feb 5 10:43:48 2022
    On 05-Feb-22 9:24 am, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-03, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs
    across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Do they make any voltage claims for this module?

    As you say the diode trace goes close to the contact trace but they have about 4mm clearance between the exposed conductore. They've put solder
    mask and silk screen on the traces, I guess they're trying to call
    that silkscreen suplimental insulation, but it seems to stop short of
    where it should be. Maybe they are just apeing someone elses design
    which had better layout.

    More worrying, the exposed relay common contact pin is close to
    header pin 1, it looks like less than 2mm clearance there.

    Some designers will route a groove around the common pin to give
    better isolation between the coil and the contacts, but I much prefer
    relays that have the coil terminals at one end and the contacts at the
    other end.



    This is the product page:

    https://au.element14.com/mcm/83-17990/5v-trigger-relay-module-for-arduinoraspberry/dp/2801412

    You may note that the picture doesn't match. The data sheet provided is
    for the relay itself, rather than the module.

    At the time of posting I hadn't realised where the common pin was. As
    you've observed, it represents another isolation concern.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 4 15:52:29 2022
    lørdag den 5. februar 2022 kl. 00.44.00 UTC+1 skrev Sylvia Else:
    On 05-Feb-22 9:24 am, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-03, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs >> across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Do they make any voltage claims for this module?

    As you say the diode trace goes close to the contact trace but they have about 4mm clearance between the exposed conductore. They've put solder mask and silk screen on the traces, I guess they're trying to call
    that silkscreen suplimental insulation, but it seems to stop short of where it should be. Maybe they are just apeing someone elses design
    which had better layout.

    More worrying, the exposed relay common contact pin is close to
    header pin 1, it looks like less than 2mm clearance there.

    Some designers will route a groove around the common pin to give
    better isolation between the coil and the contacts, but I much prefer relays that have the coil terminals at one end and the contacts at the other end.


    This is the product page:

    https://au.element14.com/mcm/83-17990/5v-trigger-relay-module-for-arduinoraspberry/dp/2801412

    You may note that the picture doesn't match. The data sheet provided is
    for the relay itself, rather than the module.

    At the time of posting I hadn't realised where the common pin was. As
    you've observed, it represents another isolation concern.


    the picture is a different module, the diode is smd and there's a cutout around the common pin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Sat Feb 5 11:15:25 2022
    On 05-Feb-22 10:52 am, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    lørdag den 5. februar 2022 kl. 00.44.00 UTC+1 skrev Sylvia Else:
    On 05-Feb-22 9:24 am, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-02-03, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right. >>>>
    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs >>>> across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a >>>> diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Do they make any voltage claims for this module?

    As you say the diode trace goes close to the contact trace but they have >>> about 4mm clearance between the exposed conductore. They've put solder
    mask and silk screen on the traces, I guess they're trying to call
    that silkscreen suplimental insulation, but it seems to stop short of
    where it should be. Maybe they are just apeing someone elses design
    which had better layout.

    More worrying, the exposed relay common contact pin is close to
    header pin 1, it looks like less than 2mm clearance there.

    Some designers will route a groove around the common pin to give
    better isolation between the coil and the contacts, but I much prefer
    relays that have the coil terminals at one end and the contacts at the
    other end.


    This is the product page:

    https://au.element14.com/mcm/83-17990/5v-trigger-relay-module-for-arduinoraspberry/dp/2801412

    You may note that the picture doesn't match. The data sheet provided is
    for the relay itself, rather than the module.

    At the time of posting I hadn't realised where the common pin was. As
    you've observed, it represents another isolation concern.


    the picture is a different module, the diode is smd and there's a cutout around the common pin

    I hadn't noticed the cut-out, but yes, it's different. There's a pale
    grey "Image is for illustrative purposes only" caveat underneath. A
    downside of the illustrated module though is that it has no mounting
    holes. Still, it makes the point that the job could have been done
    properly by someone who knows what they're doing.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Sat Feb 5 14:10:02 2022
    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its construction:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get horribly
    close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure mode
    that would connect the load to the coil.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Sat Feb 5 17:16:10 2022
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote in news:j6684cF8ml5U1@mid.individual.net:

    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl
    =0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the
    right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts
    that runs across the isolation barrier, near to the mains
    contacts. It runs to a diode, from which another traces runs back
    to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to
    believe that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its
    construction:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    That is a pretty sad assembly. Hand tweaked lead positions after
    soldering too, I'm sure.

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get
    horribly close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc -16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure
    mode that would connect the load to the coil.

    Those are nice industry pro grade parts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Sun Feb 6 18:29:32 2022
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs
    across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its construction:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get horribly
    close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    And? The cheapest of relays are cheapy made. If you need safety look up intrinsically safe relays, and no don't then try buy buy fakes ones from
    amazon or alibaba.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure mode
    that would connect the load to the coil.

    Sylvia.

    Let me guess, one Omron relay costs the same as 5 chinese house-special relay boards.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Mon Feb 7 11:40:42 2022
    On 07-Feb-22 5:29 am, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right.

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs
    across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its construction:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get horribly
    close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    And? The cheapest of relays are cheapy made. If you need safety look up intrinsically safe relays, and no don't then try buy buy fakes ones from amazon or alibaba.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure mode
    that would connect the load to the coil.

    Sylvia.

    Let me guess, one Omron relay costs the same as 5 chinese house-special relay boards.

    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the product is cheap.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Mon Feb 7 12:22:14 2022
    On 07-Feb-22 12:16 pm, Dan Purgert wrote:
    Sylvia Else wrote:
    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are
    required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the
    product is cheap.

    There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about the relay nor the board
    you've posted.

    In the case of the relay - copper wire doesn't just unwind from a
    solenoid bobbin; then there's the enamel coating on the wire itself (breakdown voltage of that being something like 400 - 600 volts, or even higher).

    In the case of the entire assembly, it's perfectly fine at the
    relatively low voltages and amperages that one can reasonably expect
    when playing with an Arduino project. It's not like we're mucking
    around with 100 amps at 240 volts or the like ...




    This module is sold for controlling household appliances from an
    Arduino. Here's another vendor's description:

    <https://www.jaycar.com.au/arduino-compatible-5v-relay-board/p/XC4419?pos=2&queryId=a54e7487b5d48b61a328f1327e6d72d7&sort=relevance>

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Mon Feb 7 01:16:34 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Sylvia Else wrote:
    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the product is cheap.

    There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about the relay nor the board
    you've posted.

    In the case of the relay - copper wire doesn't just unwind from a
    solenoid bobbin; then there's the enamel coating on the wire itself
    (breakdown voltage of that being something like 400 - 600 volts, or even higher).

    In the case of the entire assembly, it's perfectly fine at the
    relatively low voltages and amperages that one can reasonably expect
    when playing with an Arduino project. It's not like we're mucking
    around with 100 amps at 240 volts or the like ...


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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Mon Feb 7 12:03:31 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    On 07-Feb-22 12:16 pm, Dan Purgert wrote:
    Sylvia Else wrote:
    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are
    required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the >>> product is cheap.

    There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about the relay nor the board
    you've posted.

    In the case of the relay - copper wire doesn't just unwind from a
    solenoid bobbin; then there's the enamel coating on the wire itself
    (breakdown voltage of that being something like 400 - 600 volts, or even
    higher).

    In the case of the entire assembly, it's perfectly fine at the
    relatively low voltages and amperages that one can reasonably expect
    when playing with an Arduino project. It's not like we're mucking
    around with 100 amps at 240 volts or the like ...




    This module is sold for controlling household appliances from an
    Arduino. Here's another vendor's description:
    <https://www.jaycar.com.au/arduino-compatible-5v-relay-board/p/XC4419?pos=2&queryId=a54e7487b5d48b61a328f1327e6d72d7&sort=relevance>

    Okay, the relay is perfectly safe. That stylized "[c]RU[us]" there on
    the relay is the Underwriters' Laboratories mark for "Recognized
    Component". The 'c' and 'us' subscripts there just indicate it's passed examinations for Canadian and US markets.

    As for the board itself ... google indicates that ~3mm is (or at least
    was) the minimum separation on contacts for up to 300V (no distinction
    made between AC or DC). I don't know if this is current regulation
    though.

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Mon Feb 7 14:44:26 2022
    Dan Purgert wrote:

    ===============

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are >>> required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the >>> product is cheap.

    There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about the relay nor the board
    you've posted.

    In the case of the relay - copper wire doesn't just unwind from a
    solenoid bobbin; then there's the enamel coating on the wire itself
    (breakdown voltage of that being something like 400 - 600 volts, or even >> higher).

    In the case of the entire assembly, it's perfectly fine at the
    relatively low voltages and amperages that one can reasonably expect
    when playing with an Arduino project. It's not like we're mucking
    around with 100 amps at 240 volts or the like ...

    ** Very naive idea.

    This module is sold for controlling household appliances from an
    Arduino. Here's another vendor's description:

    Okay, the relay is perfectly safe.

    ** You don't know that.


    As for the board itself ... google indicates that ~3mm is (or at least
    was) the minimum separation on contacts for up to 300V (no distinction
    made between AC or DC). I don't know if this is current regulation
    though.

    ** Think you know SFA - pal.

    Relay contacts for 250VAC open about 1mm in practice.
    The DC rating is only 24V for the same relay at similar current - cos DC acrs do not self extinguish.

    User safety is a separate matter and has got nothing to do with a device simply working.
    The issue then is whether a dangerous voltage from the MAINS SUPPLY can get across the gap from contacts to the coil.
    For this, there are two questions:

    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ?

    If no earth, clearance and creepage apply - distances an acr or "tracking" could breach some day allowing for some contamination of the PCB or relay itself. This link from Sylvia showed a relay that would likely meet the second condition:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    Just looking at logos on a relay tell you nothing.
    User safety is way more involved.

    The relay Sylvia "sacrifised" looks a safety nightmare .


    ...... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Tue Feb 8 03:56:56 2022
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 07-Feb-22 5:29 am, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0

    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right. >>>>
    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs >>>> across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a >>>> diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe
    that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its construction:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get horribly
    close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    And? The cheapest of relays are cheapy made. If you need safety look up
    intrinsically safe relays, and no don't then try buy buy fakes ones from
    amazon or alibaba.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure mode
    that would connect the load to the coil.

    Sylvia.

    Let me guess, one Omron relay costs the same as 5 chinese house-special relay boards.

    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the product is cheap.

    Sylvia.

    Yeah, sure. Don't worry about those relay boards they're completely safe
    and meet all safety specs. The law says so, therefor they do.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Tue Feb 8 15:18:56 2022
    On 08-Feb-22 2:56 pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 07-Feb-22 5:29 am, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0 >>>>>
    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right. >>>>>
    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs >>>>> across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a >>>>> diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe >>>>> that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its construction:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get horribly >>>> close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    And? The cheapest of relays are cheapy made. If you need safety look up
    intrinsically safe relays, and no don't then try buy buy fakes ones from >>> amazon or alibaba.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure mode >>>> that would connect the load to the coil.

    Sylvia.

    Let me guess, one Omron relay costs the same as 5 chinese house-special relay boards.

    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are
    required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the
    product is cheap.

    Sylvia.

    Yeah, sure. Don't worry about those relay boards they're completely safe
    and meet all safety specs. The law says so, therefor they do.



    Not sure what you intend by that. Laws are human creations, and can be breached. People who breach laws can be punished. It is not a defence to
    say that the product was cheap.

    Sylvia.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Robertson@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Mon Feb 7 21:02:36 2022
    On 2022/02/03 9:17 a.m., Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    torsdag den 3. februar 2022 kl. 12.11.15 UTC+1 skrev Dan Purgert:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512
    Sylvia Else wrote:

    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs
    across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a
    diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.
    It's hard to tell since it's just a bottom shot, but given the
    positioning, I'd hazard that's the flyback diode for when the coil field
    is collapsing.

    yes, looks like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Tolako-Arduino-Indicator-Channel-Official/dp/B00VRUAHLE

    who ever designed it obviously didn't spend much time thinking, because there is no reason for those tracks being routed that close to the output side



    I agree, this is misrepresented saying it can control 220VAC loads. The
    RELAY is indeed safety rated at 10A @ 250VAC, but the board layout has
    no approval rating, so must be operated under 30VAC.

    I submitted an 'incorrect product information' report on this item.

    Usual problem with eBay and Amazon products, no accountability.

    John :-#(#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to John Robertson on Mon Feb 7 22:47:25 2022
    John Robertson wrote:
    ===================


    I agree, this is misrepresented saying it can control 220VAC loads. The
    RELAY is indeed safety rated at 10A @ 250VAC,

    ** Means only that it can switch that voltage at that current.
    Takes no account of many thousand volt spikes that can occur on the MAINS supply for a variety of reasons.
    Such spikes will possibly bridge the contacts and or the gap between them and the coil terminations on the bad relay that Sylvia bought.
    Once the gap is bridged a vert large current can then flow.

    It also takes no account that the coil side may be in direct contact with a user.
    Safety involves the WHOLE set up.

    ...... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Tue Feb 8 23:31:28 2022
    On 08/02/2022 09:44, Phil Allison wrote:
    The issue then is whether a dangerous voltage from the MAINS SUPPLY can get across the gap from contacts to the coil.
    For this, there are two questions:

    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ?

    Even if the coil side power supply is earthed, it still might not be
    compliant with safety standards. If one end of the coil is earthed, it
    has to be a protective earth, not just any weedy earth wire, the test
    for this depends on the standard for the end product but is often
    something like passing 15A or 25A for a minute. (I'd suggest something
    like 400A for 5ms might also be a relevant test but the standards don't
    require it.)

    Even if one terminal of the coil is protectively earthed, if the other
    end of the coil goes to the arduino etc. then it is still not compliant.
    Both ends of the coil can't be protectively earthed if you can turn on
    the coil, so at least one end needs to have some mains-rated insulation
    from the user in order to be compliant. If the arduino is accessible to
    touch then this is no good.

    The only way that I can see this relay board could be used in a
    compliant product is if the whole arduino and everything connected to it
    is classed as mains circuitry and separated from the user by reinforced ("double") insulation (~5mm creepage, depends on which standard) or
    basic insulation (~2.5mm creepage) to a protectively earthed enclosure.
    Of course then you can't plug in a laptop or anything else to the
    Arduino for programming it whilst being compliant.

    Given that the typical Arduino user won't know anything about this, it
    is irresponsible to be selling this thing, particularly as it could have
    been made safely for about the same cost.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Tue Feb 8 13:54:21 2022
    Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in news:e35dc0bc-df90-413d-b73c-220bde3f11a7n@googlegroups.com:

    John Robertson wrote:
    ===================


    I agree, this is misrepresented saying it can control 220VAC
    loads. The RELAY is indeed safety rated at 10A @ 250VAC,

    ** Means only that it can switch that voltage at that current.
    Takes no account of many thousand volt spikes that can occur on
    the MAINS supply for a variety of reasons. Such spikes will
    possibly bridge the contacts and or the gap between them and the
    coil terminations on the bad relay that Sylvia bought. Once the
    gap is bridged a vert large current can then flow.

    It also takes no account that the coil side may be in direct
    contact with a user.
    Safety involves the WHOLE set up.

    ...... Phil

    1000 volt spikes on your power line? I have serious doubts about
    that claim. Maybe back in the sixties when you thought you knew
    electronics or power back then. I'd bet that was how long ago you
    looked and drew that lame conclusion. Nowadays... I seriously doubt
    it, and I seriously doubt you have looked at how clean an AC line is in decades.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Robertson@21:1/5 to DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc on Tue Feb 8 08:05:50 2022
    On 2022/02/08 5:54 a.m., DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
    Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in news:e35dc0bc-df90-413d-b73c-220bde3f11a7n@googlegroups.com:

    John Robertson wrote:
    ===================


    I agree, this is misrepresented saying it can control 220VAC
    loads. The RELAY is indeed safety rated at 10A @ 250VAC,

    ** Means only that it can switch that voltage at that current.
    Takes no account of many thousand volt spikes that can occur on
    the MAINS supply for a variety of reasons. Such spikes will
    possibly bridge the contacts and or the gap between them and the
    coil terminations on the bad relay that Sylvia bought. Once the
    gap is bridged a vert large current can then flow.

    It also takes no account that the coil side may be in direct
    contact with a user.
    Safety involves the WHOLE set up.

    ...... Phil

    1000 volt spikes on your power line? I have serious doubts about
    that claim. Maybe back in the sixties when you thought you knew
    electronics or power back then. I'd bet that was how long ago you
    looked and drew that lame conclusion. Nowadays... I seriously doubt
    it, and I seriously doubt you have looked at how clean an AC line is in decades.

    A city boy aren't you?

    Ever heard of rural power, you know where power wires extend for
    kilometers between customers? Small towns in the middle of nowhere that
    are fed by HV transmission lines?

    I regularly repair equipment that has had surges, mostly from the
    interior of BC or Alberta (Canada) where spikes are not uncommon and
    most folks, if they want to preserve their equipment, use power bars
    with MOV surge arresters installed. And these MOVs blow up from time to
    time.

    As Phil says, the system must be rated by a proper standards association
    to be safe to use at the rated voltage. And as I said, as it is unrated, therefore it is only safe for 30VAC or less.

    For 120VAC the Hi-Pot test is usually be conducted at 1240VAC, for 220
    it would need to not arc over around 1440VAC - "As per IEC 60950 the
    basic voltage for Hipot test is 2X (Operating voltage) + 1000V."

    https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/what-is-hipot-testing-dielectric-strength-test

    I seriously doubt this PCB will pass that insulation breakdown test.

    John :-#(#

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to DecadentLinux...@decadence.org on Tue Feb 8 10:48:51 2022
    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    =============================

    1000 volt spikes on your power line?

    ** Yep - easily.

    I have serious doubts about that claim.

    ** LOL wot a hoot.

    Maybe back in the sixties when you thought you knew
    electronics or power back then. I'd bet that was how long ago you
    looked and drew that lame conclusion. Nowadays... I seriously doubt
    it, and I seriously doubt you have looked at how clean an AC line is in decades.

    ** Never seen how many items have varistors across the AC inlet ?

    Such spikes can be locally generated, at switch off of an un-supressed inductive loads.
    A fluro desk light can do it.
    Nearby lightning strikes are the major sourceand that is never going away.


    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Chris Jones on Tue Feb 8 10:56:22 2022
    Chris Jones wrote:
    ================


    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ?

    Even if the coil side power supply is earthed, it still might not be compliant with safety standards.

    ** Bullshit.

    If one end of the coil is earthed, it
    has to be a protective earth, not just any weedy earth wire,

    ** FYI smartarse:

    "safety earth = "protective earth" !!!

    Even if one terminal of the coil is protectively earthed, if the other
    end of the coil goes to the arduino etc. then it is still not compliant.

    ** More bullshit - try reading what I ACTUALLY wrote !!

    " Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ? "

    Both ends of the coil can't be protectively earthed if you can turn on
    the coil, so at least one end needs to have some mains-rated insulation
    from the user in order to be compliant. If the arduino is accessible to
    touch then this is no good.

    ** Childish drivel.

    ( snip pile of absurd crap )

    This bloody IDIOT does not know how earthing an appliance works.


    ..... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Tue Feb 8 20:43:25 2022
    Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in news:2c72f9ba-ef89-4c60-88a2-27c29d3ae2e3n@googlegroups.com:

    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    =============================

    1000 volt spikes on your power line?

    ** Yep - easily.

    I have serious doubts about that claim.

    ** LOL wot a hoot.

    Maybe back in the sixties when you thought you knew
    electronics or power back then. I'd bet that was how long ago you
    looked and drew that lame conclusion. Nowadays... I seriously
    doubt it, and I seriously doubt you have looked at how clean an
    AC line is in decades.

    ** Never seen how many items have varistors across the AC inlet ?

    Such spikes can be locally generated, at switch off of an
    un-supressed inductive loads. A fluro desk light can do it.
    Nearby lightning strikes are the major sourceand that is never
    going away.


    ..... Phil

    Perhaps, but not thousand volt levels short of a lightning strike
    on a line.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to pallison49@gmail.com on Tue Feb 8 17:29:06 2022
    On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 14:44:26 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
    <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

    Dan Purgert wrote:

    ===============

    Sylvia Else wrote:

    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are >> >>> required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the >> >>> product is cheap.

    There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about the relay nor the board
    you've posted.

    In the case of the relay - copper wire doesn't just unwind from a
    solenoid bobbin; then there's the enamel coating on the wire itself
    (breakdown voltage of that being something like 400 - 600 volts, or even >> >> higher).

    In the case of the entire assembly, it's perfectly fine at the
    relatively low voltages and amperages that one can reasonably expect
    when playing with an Arduino project. It's not like we're mucking
    around with 100 amps at 240 volts or the like ...

    ** Very naive idea.

    This module is sold for controlling household appliances from an
    Arduino. Here's another vendor's description:

    Okay, the relay is perfectly safe.

    ** You don't know that.


    As for the board itself ... google indicates that ~3mm is (or at least
    was) the minimum separation on contacts for up to 300V (no distinction
    made between AC or DC). I don't know if this is current regulation
    though.

    ** Think you know SFA - pal.

    Relay contacts for 250VAC open about 1mm in practice.
    The DC rating is only 24V for the same relay at similar current - cos DC acrs do not self extinguish.

    User safety is a separate matter and has got nothing to do with a device simply working.
    The issue then is whether a dangerous voltage from the MAINS SUPPLY can get across the gap from contacts to the coil.
    For this, there are two questions:

    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ?

    If no earth, clearance and creepage apply - distances an acr or "tracking" could breach some day allowing for some contamination of the PCB or relay itself. This link from Sylvia showed a relay that would likely meet the second condition:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1


    Yes, we have surges. Here is the US data, republished by the US Govt:

    .<https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/pml/div684/Guideline_EMC.pdf>


    "A Guideline on Surge Voltages in AC Power Circuits Rated up to 600
    V", Franois Martzloff, General Electric Company, Schenectady NY,
    Reprinted, with permission, from Proceedings, 3rd International
    Symposium on Electromagnetic Compatibility, Rotterdam, 1979.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Wed Feb 9 14:20:01 2022
    On 09/02/2022 05:56, Phil Allison wrote:
    ** FYI smartarse:

    "safety earth = "protective earth" !!!

    If you meant "protective earth" when you said:

    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?

    then you should have said protective earth. People earth things for all
    sorts of reasons. Some people reading your post would not know the
    difference.


    Even if one terminal of the coil is protectively earthed, if the other
    end of the coil goes to the arduino etc. then it is still not compliant.

    ** More bullshit - try reading what I ACTUALLY wrote !!

    " Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ? "

    The circuitry might have a protective earth connected to its 0V rail,
    maybe you would then say the circitry has a protective earth, but that
    is not good enough if parts of the circuitry other than the 0V rail can
    become live, which you know of course, but didn't say.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 8 19:35:35 2022
    Chris Jones bullshittted:
    ====================
    Phil Allison wrote:
    ** FYI smartarse:

    "safety earth = "protective earth" !!!

    If you meant "protective earth" when you said:

    ** WRONG !!!.

    Safety earth is as * clear a term * as can be.


    ** More bullshit - try reading what I ACTUALLY wrote !!

    " Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?

    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ? "

    The circuitry might have a protective earth connected to its 0V rail,

    ** Go fuck yourself - you assinine PITA PEDANT.



    .... love, Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From amdx@21:1/5 to DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc on Wed Feb 9 15:01:46 2022
    On 2/8/2022 2:43 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
    Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in news:2c72f9ba-ef89-4c60-88a2-27c29d3ae2e3n@googlegroups.com:

    DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    =============================
    1000 volt spikes on your power line?
    ** Yep - easily.

    I have serious doubts about that claim.
    ** LOL wot a hoot.

    Maybe back in the sixties when you thought you knew
    electronics or power back then. I'd bet that was how long ago you
    looked and drew that lame conclusion. Nowadays... I seriously
    doubt it, and I seriously doubt you have looked at how clean an
    AC line is in decades.
    ** Never seen how many items have varistors across the AC inlet ?

    Such spikes can be locally generated, at switch off of an
    un-supressed inductive loads. A fluro desk light can do it.
    Nearby lightning strikes are the major sourceand that is never
    going away.


    ..... Phil

    Perhaps, but not thousand volt levels short of a lightning strike
    on a line.

    I haven't read all the other responses, but the Q&A on the Amazon site
    has a post about 30Vdc Max, and apparently there is a spec that says that.


    "There is a tough to find data sheet that does spec this unit at a max
    of 30vdc. Refer to this link for more info, http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/97721/why-ac-points-on-pcb-are-separated-by-a-hole
    There are products that are very similar and rated for 120v ac use.
    By sinclair macgregor on June 17, 2016
    This module should not be used for 110 ac - it does not have adequate
    trace separation and thus is rated for 30vdc max.
    By sinclair macgregor on June 16, 2016
    The relay is rated for 10 amps. To figure watts, just do the math. Amps
    X Voltage = Watts 10A X 120v = 1200 watts. This assumes the design of
    the PCB can handle the wattage. Assuming this board is of typical
    Chinese quality, all bets are off. Better to use a 'hockey puck' like an
    Opto 22 instead of a mechanical … see more <https://www.amazon.com/Tolako-Arduino-Indicator-Channel-Official/dp/B00VRUAHLE#>

    By Amazonian on December 11, 2016
    I don't know the exact limit, but I use it to turn a server pc off and
    on. However I wouldn't push it pass 400W.
    By Dayron VAliente on June 16, 2016 "

    https://www.amazon.com/Tolako-Arduino-Indicator-Channel-Official/dp/B00VRUAHLE
                                     Mikek


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Robertson@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 9 21:36:22 2022
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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Fri Feb 11 17:01:56 2022
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 08-Feb-22 2:56 pm, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 07-Feb-22 5:29 am, Cydrome Leader wrote:
    Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
    On 03-Feb-22 4:47 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
    I bought this Arduino Relay Board.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/emgdcm33190unse/ArduinoRelayBoard.jpg?dl=0 >>>>>>
    It's about 33mm by 20mm.

    The mains contacts are on the left, the control contacts on the right. >>>>>>
    What bothers me is the trace from one of the control contacts that runs >>>>>> across the isolation barrier, near to the mains contacts. It runs to a >>>>>> diode, from which another traces runs back to the right.

    The packaging carries a CE label, but I find it difficult to believe >>>>>> that this is actually safe.

    Sylvia.

    I decided to sacrifice the relay itself to examine its construction: >>>>>
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ly8wlfnkvpl1ea9/c_relay.jpg?dl=0

    If the coil wire were to break off its pin there, it could get horribly >>>>> close to the mains connected (brass?) plate.

    And? The cheapest of relays are cheapy made. If you need safety look up >>>> intrinsically safe relays, and no don't then try buy buy fakes ones from >>>> amazon or alibaba.

    I salvaged four of these from my dead UPS:

    https://au.element14.com/omron/g2r-1-e-12dc/relay-spdt-250vac-30vdc-16a/dp/9949410?st=g2r-1

    They've clearly been designed so that there's no credible failure mode >>>>> that would connect the load to the coil.

    Sylvia.

    Let me guess, one Omron relay costs the same as 5 chinese house-special relay boards.

    I don't know about the law where you live, but where I am, products are
    required to be safe, and the requirement is not relaxed just because the >>> product is cheap.

    Sylvia.

    Yeah, sure. Don't worry about those relay boards they're completely safe
    and meet all safety specs. The law says so, therefor they do.



    Not sure what you intend by that. Laws are human creations, and can be breached. People who breach laws can be punished. It is not a defence to
    say that the product was cheap.

    Sylvia.

    You're confusing defense with common sense.

    cheap trash is cheap trash. It will not be made well or correctly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Chris Jones on Fri Feb 11 11:52:29 2022
    On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 4:31:41 AM UTC-8, Chris Jones wrote:
    On 08/02/2022 09:44, Phil Allison wrote:
    The issue then is whether a dangerous voltage from the MAINS SUPPLY can get across the gap from contacts to the coil.
    For this, there are two questions:

    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ?...

    The only way that I can see this relay board could be used in a
    compliant product is...

    Given that the typical Arduino user won't know anything about this, it
    is irresponsible to be selling this thing, particularly as it could have
    been made safely for about the same cost.

    An Arduino is a test-bench bare board, not a consumer product. The
    sale of a 'thing' which is a disembodied component is not at all consistent with consumer product marketing, in terms of any safety considerations.
    Every bit of wire is 'not safe' in some sense, and a wire affixed to an AC cord is therefore... not a consumer product. I've got a bushel of such wires
    next to the test bench...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 13:51:04 2022
    whitless IDIOT bullshitted again :
    ======================

    The issue then is whether a dangerous voltage from the MAINS SUPPLY can get across the gap from contacts to the coil.
    For this, there are two questions:

    Is the coil side wiring supply earthed ?
    Can a user be in contact with the coil circuitry with no safely earth ?...

    The only way that I can see this relay board could be used in a
    compliant product is...
    Given that the typical Arduino user won't know anything about this, it
    is irresponsible to be selling this thing, particularly as it could have been made safely for about the same cost.

    An Arduino is a test-bench bare board, not a consumer product.

    ** 100% IRRELEVANT !!!

    The
    sale of a 'thing' which is a disembodied component is not at all consistent with consumer product marketing, in terms of any safety considerations.

    ** ABSURD CRAP !!!

    The relay board is being sold as a safety related device !
    To SAFELY switch the AC supply ( on / off) from a popular hobby PCB controller.

    Every AC rated relay I have ever bought and used could do that job well - isolation from coil pins to the AC carrying conductors is huge.
    The one Sylvia "sacrificed" is not safe for that job.




    ...... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to palli...@gmail.com on Fri Feb 11 22:04:11 2022
    On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 1:51:12 PM UTC-8, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
    whitless IDIOT bullshitted again :

    [The issue then is whether a dangerous voltage from the MAINS SUPPLY can get across the gap from contacts to the coil. ]

    An Arduino is a test-bench bare board, not a consumer product.
    ** 100% IRRELEVANT !!!

    Imagination is required; open your mind and use some.

    The
    sale of a 'thing' which is a disembodied component is not at all consistent with consumer product marketing, in terms of any safety considerations.
    ** ABSURD CRAP !!!

    The relay board is being sold as a safety related device !
    To SAFELY switch the AC supply ( on / off) from a popular hobby PCB controller.

    No, the relays don't come attached to any AC supply. That's a user decision, not part of the as-delivered item.

    Every AC rated relay I have ever bought and used could do that job well - isolation from coil pins to the AC carrying conductors is huge.
    The one Sylvia "sacrificed" is not safe for that job.

    24VAC is common in power control systems, as are SSR devices with low DC voltages on the
    inputs, and the relays would safely drive those. They'd work in a car, on 12V. You can argue safety after you
    know the application, but not just by looking at the relay and the Arduino. For aircraft, none of
    the considered relays are safe at 10k feet...

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  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 23:59:22 2022
    whitless SICK DEMENTED IDIOT bullshitted again :

    ======================================

    ** This vile ASD fucked pig needs shooting !


    An Arduino is a test-bench bare board, not a consumer product.

    ** 100% IRRELEVANT !!!

    Imagination is required; open your mind and use some.

    ** Your total fucking INSANITY is your ONLY point.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The
    sale of a 'thing' which is a disembodied component is not at all consistent
    with consumer product marketing, in terms of any safety considerations.

    ** ABSURD CRAP !!!

    The relay board is being sold as a safety related device !
    To SAFELY switch the AC supply ( on / off) from a popular hobby PCB controller.

    No, the relays don't come attached to any AC supply. That's a user decision,

    ** WOT FUCKING INSANE FUCKING CRAPOLOGY !!!!

    INSANELY TOTALLY WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    GET cancer & die you POS fucking asshole.

    YOU are NOW MY TARGET
    ------------------------------------------


    ..... Phil

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