• Covid Rights Quote

    From Rick C@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 1 07:40:32 2022
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are wide open and we are dying left and right. He said
    it in a condensed form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't show it.

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Rick C on Tue Feb 1 07:57:07 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:40:36 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are wide open and we are dying left and right. He said
    it in a condensed form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't show it.

    I found the right phrase to locate the quote in a search.

    "in our communism country Viet Nam, people are forced to be
    alive and in the western country like US, people are free to
    die from Covid 19 lol" duc ha

    What I can't find is anything on the web that I can cite regarding this quote.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Rick C on Tue Feb 1 12:18:27 2022
    On 2/1/2022 10:40 AM, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are wide open and we are dying left and right. He
    said it in a condensed form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't show it.


    America is full of the type of "personal responsibility"-bloviator who meanwhile operates in full confidence that there will always be someone
    with some magic to save his ass when he gets deep in the shit.

    He tends to find out way too late there's no magic in this world.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Tue Feb 1 19:13:45 2022
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Feb 1 11:39:47 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make sense.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Tue Feb 1 12:45:16 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 2:39:51 PM UTC-5, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.
    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make sense.

    You would think that only if you don't believe there are measures that a government can take that reduces the infection. The infection rate is 12,000 a day at the moment, but the death rate is only 128 and falling. With a population of 100 million,
    those are really good numbers compared to nearly anywhere, 383 ppm since the beginning of the pandemic and rank of 128. Yeah, that's pretty good.

    So the quote still makes good sense.

    Interesting that no one reads my second post where I found the quote and the attribution. It has been posted several times by albert. I just can't find an original quote on the web.

    --

    Rick C.

    -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Tue Feb 1 21:16:41 2022
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make sense.

    They are doing one hell of a lot lot better than either the UK (today's
    figure is 110k new cases and rising faster again) or the USA. Face
    coverings stopped being mandatory in enclosed spaces in England last
    Tuesday - the effects of that change are just filtering through.

    Japan is still worried but the sumo tournament was close to 50%
    attendance last month and although Omicron is rising there it is still
    being fairly well contained. They trust their government to be doing the
    right thing and are prepared to make sacrifices for the common good.
    100% mask wearing compliance amongst the audience.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 1 13:38:33 2022
    tirsdag den 1. februar 2022 kl. 22.16.49 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make sense.
    They are doing one hell of a lot lot better than either the UK (today's figure is 110k new cases and rising faster again) or the USA. Face
    coverings stopped being mandatory in enclosed spaces in England last
    Tuesday - the effects of that change are just filtering through.

    Denmark has been around 30-50K new cases a day for while.
    All restrictions and mandates related to covid were removed today, because even with the large number of cases it doesn't make sense to have restriction with low
    the number of people in hospital for it

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Feb 2 00:00:55 2022
    On 2/1/2022 23:16, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    It was from Vietnam.  Someone here wrote or forwarded the message when
    Vietnam's cases were low.  But shortly after, they have had 10k daily
    new cases and the quote no longer make sense.

    They are doing one hell of a lot lot better than either the UK (today's figure is 110k new cases and rising faster again) or the USA. Face
    coverings stopped being mandatory in enclosed spaces in England last
    Tuesday - the effects of that change are just filtering through.

    I can't see why people are so unwilling to wear masks, as if it is a
    big deal. Covid or no covid wearing masks in closed spaces is just
    better hygiene and thus less infections. Not many people enjoy having
    a running nose for days, although it is not lethal. Yet here we are,
    lots of people feel wearing a mask is restricting their rights... the
    right to spread whatever infections they are carrying, that is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Tue Feb 1 13:55:10 2022
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html




    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to
    no public health effects,
    they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have
    been adopted. In
    consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be rejected
    as a pandemic policy
    instrument."

    --

    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
    but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties. Francis Bacon

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Tue Feb 1 23:54:11 2022
    On 2/1/2022 21:13, Martin Brown wrote:
    ...

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.


    I think this is the right way, people should be free to do things.
    And of course doing things includes doing stupid things.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Feb 1 17:25:42 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be
    rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19."

    People didn't take them seriously enough to have much impact on infection rates. They certainly made a serious difference in Australia. Business didn't like them here either. It's very much the US approach to policies they don't like - find somewhere
    where they have been implemented badly, and use that to claim that they can never work.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to dp@tgi-sci.com on Wed Feb 2 07:47:27 2022
    Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in news:stca63$j4f$1@dont-
    email.me:

    On 2/1/2022 21:13, Martin Brown wrote:
    ...

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.


    I think this is the right way, people should be free to do things.
    And of course doing things includes doing stupid things.


    As long as they are not in public office... fine.

    Those individuals, however, need a different fire for their feet to
    be held to.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Wed Feb 2 12:52:35 2022
    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be
    rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did. They
    left it until the very last moment to lockdown which meant the disease
    was in serious exponential growth doubling every 3 days by the time they finally lost their nerve. They were going to go for "herd immunity" and
    a cull of the elderly and vulnerable but lost their nerve. National
    Geographic has a contemporaneous article about the UK's approach:

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/uk-backed-off-on-herd-immunity-to-beat-coronavirus-we-need-it

    If they had locked down before the Cheltenham Gold Cup and Liverpool vs
    Madrid super spreading events we would have been in a much better
    position. Likewise for every successive lockdown it was done about 2
    weeks to late to do any good.

    "Following the science" too late to do any good is Boris's hallmark!

    UK didn't help its figures by throwing infected bodies into care homes
    untested which was more the action of a medieval villain in a siege than
    the government of a civilised country.

    People didn't take them seriously enough to have much impact on infection rates. They certainly made a serious difference in Australia. Business didn't like them here either. It's very much the US approach to policies they don't like - find somewhere
    where they have been implemented badly, and use that to claim that they can never work.

    Japan seems to demonstrate that targetted lockdowns do work provided
    that you have a population that follows government guidance.

    Most UK people did take it seriously and follow the rules. Compliance
    with lockdown in the UK was much better than the modellers had expected
    (with the notable exception of the denizens of No 10). Partygate rumbles
    on and The Boris is desparately clinging to power just like Trump did

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to '''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk on Wed Feb 2 05:56:00 2022
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >>>> least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be
    rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Feb 2 06:26:53 2022
    On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 12:56:15 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >>>> least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be
    rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death >toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or state-by-state, statistics are all over the place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    It's not the demographics that matter, but the way people behave. Irresponsible idiots spread Covid19 much more rapidly than people who mask up and keep their distance, and some places are less tolerant of this kind of behavior.

    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    Actually the data is complicated, but deaths and hospitalisations are pretty reliable in advanced industrial countries. You've got to make hypotheses and test them to test ideas about plausible causalities, which is what epidemiologists do.

    Some countries have done better than others at preventing Covid-19 from killing people, and the one that have done better do seemed to have paid more attention to the epidemiologists. Some of the data-driven speculations do seem to have been useful, but
    John Larkin doesn't seem to be aware of this.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Feb 2 16:49:01 2022
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html

    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >>>>> least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are ill-founded and should be
    rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people
    who have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in
    the USA. In the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid
    fatality rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Feb 2 17:04:03 2022
    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >>>>>> least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to  no
    public health effects,  they have imposed enormous economic and social >>>>> costs where they have been adopted. In  consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy  instrument." >>>>
    John  Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. >>>> "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    UK Politicians were slower to change.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com@21:1/5 to spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk on Wed Feb 2 09:19:18 2022
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >>>>>>> least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social >>>>>> costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument." >>>>>
    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article. >>>>> "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death >>>> toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who >> have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational
    achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing
    government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.



    --

    I yam what I yam - Popeye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 2 10:36:48 2022
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social >>>>>> costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument." >>>>>
    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death >>>> toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational
    achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing
    government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Wed Feb 2 10:44:49 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's. >>>>>>>
    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social
    costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument." >>>>>
    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics. >>
    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational >> achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing >> government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million

    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 2 11:13:13 2022
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things. >>>>>>>
    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's. >>>>>>>
    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social
    costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did. >>>
    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the >>> place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational >> achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing >> government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million
    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Feb 2 20:27:52 2022
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.


    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully vaccinated -
    unless you have other serious diseases or medical issues, a fully
    vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be unlucky and get seriously ill
    despite their vaccines - but the risk is background noise compared to
    traffic accidents, unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds is.

    If you are not vaccinated, Omicron is a clear and definite risk, and you
    should be very careful to avoid it. It is not as big a risk as earlier
    strains were, but it is very far from risk-free.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Wed Feb 2 21:00:33 2022
    On 02/02/2022 19:44, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million

    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.


    That is not remotely true.

    Omicron /is/ significantly different, and very much more infectious than
    other strains. This means that even those fully vaccinated against
    other Covid strains have a high chance of getting Omicron, and become
    somewhat infectious themselves.

    But statistically speaking, the older vaccines mean that an Omicron
    infection will be very mild, very quick, and only mildly infectious.

    Without the vaccines, Omicron is a serious disease that is massively
    infectious and sends enough people to hospital to overwhelm them. It
    won't kill as high a fraction as Delta or have as many people
    hospitalised or suffering long-Covid, but it can be crippling to society
    and is thoroughly unpleasant.

    Get the vaccines, and encourage everyone else to do so. You'll probably
    still get Omicron sooner or later, but if you are vaccinated and not
    otherwise suffering from serious medical conditions, you'll barely
    notice you got the disease.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to langwadt@fonz.dk on Wed Feb 2 14:54:37 2022
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 11:13:13 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >> > onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social
    costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did. >> > > >>>
    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the >> > > >>> place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational
    achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing
    government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million
    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday

    My wife and I both had Omicron in late December '21, but in both cases
    it was short and mild, and medical attention was not sought or
    required. We are both triple vaccinated.

    This is the common pattern in the Boston area where we live, and the
    US in general.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt Christensen on Wed Feb 2 21:01:15 2022
    On 02/02/2022 19:13, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >>> onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing >>>>>> government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost. >>>>>
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It has already been running at a high level in the UK for over 6 weeks
    now and thanks to the government lifting all restrictions in England
    seems to be rising again or it could be the new wave of BA.2.

    Some Tory ministers went down with it earlier in the week and they were
    all crammed together in a poorly ventilated room with The Boris.

    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million

    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    The vaccines won't stop it from *infecting* you but they will protect
    you from coming to serious harm around 90% of the time (maybe more).

    There are some new interesting results from the Covid challenge trials
    in the UK - in a small sample of 36 young fit individuals. All given the
    same low infectious dose. Half didn't catch it and half did. None of
    them were seriously ill - being young and fit clearly helps there.

    Those that did catch it have recovered OK but some lost sense of
    smell/taste so it remains to be seen if the unlucky three whose sense
    had not returned within 90 days have long lasting or permanent damage.

    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/233514/covid-19-human-challenge-study-reveals-detailed/

    Use of the xenon MRI contrast agent to detect damaged lung tissue in
    long Covid sufferers is back in the news again - I'm not sure why.

    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday

    UK is 60M people and ONS survey shows 3M had active Covid last week (5%
    of the population). It was higher in London and lower in rural areas. At
    that rate it should burn out in about 20 weeks (or half of that if the
    Covid challenge trial is indicative of a real population immunity).

    London now seems to be past the peak as is my locale.

    Today UK reported 90k new cases, 15k in hospital, 500 in ICU, 500 dead. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/easy_read

    It seems like your country is much fitter than the average UK citizen or something. Your cases are a lot higher than I'd expect but the
    consequences are very much lower (UK 50k cases/day -> 200 in ICU).

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com on Wed Feb 2 20:35:47 2022
    On 02/02/22 17:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>>>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>>>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>>>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>>>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at >>>>>>>> least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to  no
    public health effects,  they have imposed enormous economic and social >>>>>>> costs where they have been adopted. In  consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy  instrument." >>>>>>
    John  Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death >>>>> toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational
    achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing
    government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    Infection with omicron will indeed give some immunity - but
    at significant /unnecessary/ risk.

    Vaccines are free here and in other civilised countries.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Wed Feb 2 20:33:15 2022
    On 02/02/22 18:44, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>>>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things. >>>>>>>>>>
    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's. >>>>>>>>>>
    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social >>>>>>>>> costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument." >>>>>>>>
    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death >>>>>>> toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did. >>>>>>
    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the >>>>>> place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics. >>>>>
    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational >>>>> achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing >>>>> government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost. >>>>
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million

    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    Two full vaccinations plus a booster is /very/ definitely worth
    having for omicron.

    The protection against hospitalisation is ~90%. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boosters-provide-high-level-of-protection-against-death-with-omicron

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Tom Gardner on Wed Feb 2 21:10:43 2022
    On 02/02/2022 20:35, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 02/02/22 17:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost. >>>
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    Infection with omicron will indeed give some immunity - but
    at significant /unnecessary/ risk.

    It does depend on how young you are.

    The vaccine risk is pretty much a fixed 1ppm for any age. When a child
    is so young that the risk of complications from Covid is lower than that
    fixed risk it is hard to justify giving them a vaccination.

    The other snag is that naturally acquired immunity from a real Covid
    infection is even more fleeting than that from vaccination with most
    being back to baseline levels of antibodies in 3-4 months.

    UK is seeing a lot of re-infection of people who have previously caught
    an earlier strain of Covid with Omicron. Best estimate of median
    reinfection frequency going forwards is about 2 years for Omicron.

    Vaccines are free here and in other civilised countries.

    Unfortunately, the Facebook generation choose to be misinformed and
    follow deranged influencers whose grasp on reality is negligible.

    Antisocial media has a case to answer for spreading crazy anti-vaxxer propaganda and clickbait anti science stories.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 2 15:07:32 2022
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 22.01.34 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 02/02/2022 19:13, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing >>>>>> government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    It has already been running at a high level in the UK for over 6 weeks
    now and thanks to the government lifting all restrictions in England
    seems to be rising again or it could be the new wave of BA.2.

    Some Tory ministers went down with it earlier in the week and they were
    all crammed together in a poorly ventilated room with The Boris.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million

    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.
    The vaccines won't stop it from *infecting* you but they will protect
    you from coming to serious harm around 90% of the time (maybe more).

    There are some new interesting results from the Covid challenge trials
    in the UK - in a small sample of 36 young fit individuals. All given the
    same low infectious dose. Half didn't catch it and half did. None of
    them were seriously ill - being young and fit clearly helps there.

    Those that did catch it have recovered OK but some lost sense of
    smell/taste so it remains to be seen if the unlucky three whose sense
    had not returned within 90 days have long lasting or permanent damage.

    https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/233514/covid-19-human-challenge-study-reveals-detailed/

    Use of the xenon MRI contrast agent to detect damaged lung tissue in
    long Covid sufferers is back in the news again - I'm not sure why.
    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday
    UK is 60M people and ONS survey shows 3M had active Covid last week (5%
    of the population). It was higher in London and lower in rural areas. At
    that rate it should burn out in about 20 weeks (or half of that if the
    Covid challenge trial is indicative of a real population immunity).

    London now seems to be past the peak as is my locale.

    Today UK reported 90k new cases, 15k in hospital, 500 in ICU, 500 dead. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/easy_read

    It seems like your country is much fitter than the average UK citizen or something. Your cases are a lot higher than I'd expect but the
    consequences are very much lower (UK 50k cases/day -> 200 in ICU).

    number of cases could be skewed by a different number of people getting tested what matter is the number in hospital

    we currently have ~1100 in hospital with corona, and 26 in ICU because of corona
    1100*60M/5.85M = ~11282 , 26*60M/5.85M = 266

    so if your actual number of cases are really 10x, the numbers similar

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Wed Feb 2 19:10:31 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 1:55:21 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to
    no public health effects,
    they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have
    been adopted.

    Yeah, about that. Washington Times is a rag; don't read too much into what they
    comment. The academic paper shows small improvement after
    lockdowns, but if the rest of the world is in decline, that small improvement might be
    important. The paper doesn't measure the costs mentioned, to support the policy
    claim; it's just an opinion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Tom Gardner on Thu Feb 3 08:27:24 2022
    On 02/02/2022 21:33, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 02/02/22 18:44, Ed Lee wrote:

    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't
    help much.

    Two full vaccinations plus a booster is /very/ definitely worth
    having for omicron.

    The protection against hospitalisation is ~90%. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boosters-provide-high-level-of-protection-against-death-with-omicron



    The statistics are showing a non-linear protection rate against more
    serious cases. By that I mean full vaccination gives about 90%
    protection against hospitalisation, something like 95% against needing intensive care, and is close to 100% against death (assuming you have no
    other serious medical issues). Accurate statistics are, of course,
    difficult to get - both for big numbers of unreported cases and small
    numbers of people who end up seriously ill despite vaccination.

    So yes, vaccines are a huge benefit against Omicron illness even if they
    are not hugely effective against getting it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Feb 3 08:37:51 2022
    On 02/02/2022 22:10, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 20:35, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 02/02/22 17:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the
    hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    Infection with omicron will indeed give some immunity - but
    at significant /unnecessary/ risk.

    It does depend on how young you are.

    The vaccine risk is pretty much a fixed 1ppm for any age. When a child
    is so young that the risk of complications from Covid is lower than that fixed risk it is hard to justify giving them a vaccination.

    "Vaccine risk" of /what/ ? Most side-effects are small and temporary.
    The more serious side effects (and there have been a few deaths from
    blood clots, which may be considered serious!) have been pretty much
    eliminated by choosing which vaccines to give particular age-groups.
    The numbers of serious problems are now so small that it is impossible
    to get good statistics on them. Your biggest risk of major health
    problems in connection with the vaccine, regardless of age, is probably
    the car journey to the vaccination centre.

    It is also reasonable to suppose (but very difficult to test or confirm)
    that people who suffer serious side-effects to the vaccine would have
    had higher risk of suffering serious effects of getting the disease.

    But you are, of course, correct in principle. No medical procedure is
    ever 100% risk-free, so vaccines must be given when they make medical statistical sense. Thus in most countries the youngest kids are not
    getting the vaccine unless they have medical reasons for needing it more
    than most.

    For adults, the situation is simpler - vaccination is good.


    The other snag is that naturally acquired immunity from a real Covid infection is even more fleeting than that from vaccination with most
    being back to baseline levels of antibodies in 3-4 months.


    Yes, although there are wide variations - partly depending on the
    serverety of the infection.

    UK is seeing a lot of re-infection of people who have previously caught
    an earlier strain of Covid with Omicron. Best estimate of median
    reinfection frequency going forwards is about 2 years for Omicron.

    Vaccines are free here and in other civilised countries.

    Unfortunately, the Facebook generation choose to be misinformed and
    follow deranged influencers whose grasp on reality is negligible.

    Antisocial media has a case to answer for spreading crazy anti-vaxxer propaganda and clickbait anti science stories.


    Indeed.

    It is, of course, not just regarding vaccination that truth and facts
    suffer at the hands of completely unregulated, uneducated, unethical
    "media".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to David Brown on Thu Feb 3 09:22:19 2022
    On 03/02/2022 07:37, David Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 22:10, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 20:35, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 02/02/22 17:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the
    hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    Infection with omicron will indeed give some immunity - but
    at significant /unnecessary/ risk.

    It does depend on how young you are.

    The vaccine risk is pretty much a fixed 1ppm for any age. When a child
    is so young that the risk of complications from Covid is lower than that
    fixed risk it is hard to justify giving them a vaccination.

    "Vaccine risk" of /what/ ? Most side-effects are small and temporary.

    Serious side effects are at about the 1ppm level (and age independent)
    and though in practice probably less now that they know that AZ is not
    suitable for younger people.

    The more serious side effects (and there have been a few deaths from
    blood clots, which may be considered serious!) have been pretty much eliminated by choosing which vaccines to give particular age-groups.
    The numbers of serious problems are now so small that it is impossible
    to get good statistics on them. Your biggest risk of major health
    problems in connection with the vaccine, regardless of age, is probably
    the car journey to the vaccination centre.

    Even so the vaccine carries some fixed amount of risk that is higher
    than the risk to very young children from Covid (and who are already
    riddled with other endemic coronavirus sniffles most of the time).

    It is also reasonable to suppose (but very difficult to test or confirm)
    that people who suffer serious side-effects to the vaccine would have
    had higher risk of suffering serious effects of getting the disease.

    Maybe. I don't think we will ever know. GBS is a random event but is
    also a common and very serious side effect of flu and Covid
    vaccinations. I'm not sure if that affects young children. It is very
    certainly a diagnosis you don't want as a adult. Looking at the
    government website numbers it seems I understated the risk which they
    claim is +5.6 ppm GBS within 6 weeks of first AZ dose.

    <https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-guillain-barre-syndrome-information-for-healthcare-professionals/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-guillain-barre-syndrome-gbs-following-covid-19-vaccination>

    But you are, of course, correct in principle. No medical procedure is
    ever 100% risk-free, so vaccines must be given when they make medical statistical sense. Thus in most countries the youngest kids are not
    getting the vaccine unless they have medical reasons for needing it more
    than most.

    That makes perfect sense is the optimum use of resources to protect the
    most vulnerable from the harmful effects of Covid.

    For adults, the situation is simpler - vaccination is good.

    It is a little more nuanced than that. If the challenge trials are any indicator there may well be a chunk of people who don't actually need
    the vaccine - they already have a strong innate immunity. Trouble is we
    can't tell who is who so vaccinating everyone is the best bet.

    I am less convinced by rolling out new boosters every 6 months for the
    worried well in first world countries to swell Pfizer's coffers. My
    instinct is that after 3 doses of a vaccine unless you have a very dodgy
    immune system you are as protected as you are ever likely to be.

    We need to be getting doses into arms in the third world so that the
    thing cannot evolve to be more of a nuisance than it already is.
    Firepower of the vaccine should be concentrated on the regions where it
    can do the most good at closing down the global pandemic phase.

    Historically such global pandemics like 1889 OC43 and 1919 Spanish Flu
    have burned out in 4-5 years and been reduced to pockets of sporadic
    infection thereafter. OC43 is still lethal in care homes. We ought to be
    able to do better but whether we will or not remains to be seen.

    The other snag is that naturally acquired immunity from a real Covid
    infection is even more fleeting than that from vaccination with most
    being back to baseline levels of antibodies in 3-4 months.


    Yes, although there are wide variations - partly depending on the
    serverety of the infection.

    It is true that antibodies stay high in very sick patients for longer
    but for moderately sick ones (not requiring hospitalisation) the
    antibodies are all but undetectable after 4 months.

    This makes figuring out who has previously had Covid difficult unless
    they took a test at the time or during the window where they show up. I
    was in a control test for this to see if the AZ vaccination produced a
    reaction on the antigen test - it didn't for me and to my knowledge I
    have not yet had Covid. Although I suspect I was exposed once to someone
    with no sense of smell and a funny dry cough who had come back from
    skiing in Northern Italy in late February right at the start.

    ISTR the opposite scenario on Newnight where the presenter tested
    himself on air with a prototype and it came up positive. He said the
    test was rubbish because he waqs sure he hadn't had it. Each successive
    new test kit he also was positive so in the end he accepted maybe he had
    but not noticed. That may well be true for a good number of us.

    UK is seeing a lot of re-infection of people who have previously caught
    an earlier strain of Covid with Omicron. Best estimate of median
    reinfection frequency going forwards is about 2 years for Omicron.

    Vaccines are free here and in other civilised countries.

    Unfortunately, the Facebook generation choose to be misinformed and
    follow deranged influencers whose grasp on reality is negligible.

    Antisocial media has a case to answer for spreading crazy anti-vaxxer
    propaganda and clickbait anti science stories.


    Indeed.

    It is, of course, not just regarding vaccination that truth and facts
    suffer at the hands of completely unregulated, uneducated, unethical
    "media".

    Somehow the algorithms used to encourage effective clickbait seem to
    produce an echo chamber for the paranoid delusionals to fester in and
    infect others with their far fetched half baked conspiracy theories.

    5G masts don't benefit from Mandela necklaces.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Feb 3 11:08:00 2022
    On 03/02/2022 10:22, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 03/02/2022 07:37, David Brown wrote:

    For adults, the situation is simpler - vaccination is good.

    It is a little more nuanced than that. If the challenge trials are any indicator there may well be a chunk of people who don't actually need
    the vaccine - they already have a strong innate immunity. Trouble is we
    can't tell who is who so vaccinating everyone is the best bet.


    Yes, exactly. It is all a game of statistics - there is no way to
    predict individual needs. And it takes time to gather the statistics.
    We don't know long-term effects or long-term risks until a long time has passed.

    Ideally we'd put more effort into vaccinating the people who are likely
    to be coughed on or sneezed on, but that is very hard to predict!

    I am less convinced by rolling out new boosters every 6 months for the worried well in first world countries to swell Pfizer's coffers. My
    instinct is that after 3 doses of a vaccine unless you have a very dodgy immune system you are as protected as you are ever likely to be.


    Your instinct may be right - or it may be wrong. Immunity to some
    diseases lasts a lifetime, for others it is very short-lived. And we
    won't know if another variant will come along that requires a modified
    vaccine until either the variant turns up, or it doesn't.

    But I fully agree that we should not keep getting boosters "just in
    case" - even with low risks of side-effects, it still all costs time,
    money, and grey hairs for worried people. Monitoring and tracking over
    time is the answer, gathering statistics and data about long-term immunity.


    We need to be getting doses into arms in the third world so that the
    thing cannot evolve to be more of a nuisance than it already is.

    Agreed.

    Firepower of the vaccine should be concentrated on the regions where it
    can do the most good at closing down the global pandemic phase.


    Yes.

    And also within developed countries, it makes sense to concentrate
    vaccine efforts where it will do most good - teachers, nurses, bus
    drivers, supermarket checkout workers, and others who have a lot of
    contact with other people. Anti-social engineers who sit in their
    offices all day are way down on the list!

    Historically such global pandemics like 1889 OC43 and 1919 Spanish Flu
    have burned out in 4-5 years and been reduced to pockets of sporadic infection thereafter. OC43 is still lethal in care homes. We ought to be
    able to do better but whether we will or not remains to be seen.


    I personally think this whole Covid business should be viewed as a
    learning exercise - a proof of concept. Despite many imperfections in
    how it has been handled around the world, we are now in a much better
    place for the day that an Ebola variation breaks loose in London or New
    York, and we /really/ need to react hard and fast.

    The other snag is that naturally acquired immunity from a real Covid
    infection is even more fleeting than that from vaccination with most
    being back to baseline levels of antibodies in 3-4 months.


    Yes, although there are wide variations - partly depending on the
    serverety of the infection.

    It is true that antibodies stay high in very sick patients for longer
    but for moderately sick ones (not requiring hospitalisation) the
    antibodies are all but undetectable after 4 months.

    This makes figuring out who has previously had Covid difficult unless
    they took a test at the time or during the window where they show up. I
    was in a control test for this to see if the AZ vaccination produced a reaction on the antigen test - it didn't for me and to my knowledge I
    have not yet had Covid. Although I suspect I was exposed once to someone
    with no sense of smell and a funny dry cough who had come back from
    skiing in Northern Italy in late February right at the start.


    It is also very difficult to test directly for the memory cells in the
    immune system - the ones that will produce the antibodies quickly after
    the infection starts. Negligible antibodies means an infection can
    start, but it is the memory cells that are important for how quickly the infection can be beaten.

    ISTR the opposite scenario on Newnight where the presenter tested
    himself on air with a prototype and it came up positive. He said the
    test was rubbish because he waqs sure he hadn't had it. Each successive
    new test kit he also was positive so in the end he accepted maybe he had
    but not noticed. That may well be true for a good number of us.


    Indeed. And there is also a certain risk of false positives and false negatives in any test. Maybe the guy has not had Covid, but had
    previously had a different corona virus (from a common cold) and the
    antibodies he has for that happen to give positive readings on the test.

    Or maybe he had been snorting Coke instead of cocaine - apparently Coke
    will make these tests show positive. (As will many other things that
    you should not have in your nose.)

    UK is seeing a lot of re-infection of people who have previously caught
    an earlier strain of Covid with Omicron. Best estimate of median
    reinfection frequency going forwards is about 2 years for Omicron.

    Vaccines are free here and in other civilised countries.

    Unfortunately, the Facebook generation choose to be misinformed and
    follow deranged influencers whose grasp on reality is negligible.

    Antisocial media has a case to answer for spreading crazy anti-vaxxer
    propaganda and clickbait anti science stories.


    Indeed.

    It is, of course, not just regarding vaccination that truth and facts
    suffer at the hands of completely unregulated, uneducated, unethical
    "media".

    Somehow the algorithms used to encourage effective clickbait seem to
    produce an echo chamber for the paranoid delusionals to fester in and
    infect others with their far fetched half baked conspiracy theories.

    5G masts don't benefit from Mandela necklaces.


    It seems that people find reality boring, and move on quickly. The
    dafter a conspiracy theory is, the more time people spend arguing about
    it - and thus the more adverts you can push at them. This is why social
    media platforms push controversial topics more than simple factual ones.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 11:12:33 2022
    On 03/02/2022 04:10, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 1:55:21 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/


    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to
    no public health effects,
    they have imposed enormous economic and social costs where they have
    been adopted.

    Yeah, about that. Washington Times is a rag; don't read too much into what they
    comment. The academic paper shows small improvement after
    lockdowns, but if the rest of the world is in decline, that small improvement might be
    important. The paper doesn't measure the costs mentioned, to support the policy
    claim; it's just an opinion.


    Any publication or site with its own page on Rational Wiki should be
    treated with scepticism:

    <https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Washington_Times>


    (And yes, I am aware that Rational Wiki has its own page on Rational
    Wiki, and needs as much scepticism and corroboration as anywhere else.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com on Thu Feb 3 19:51:44 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 12:19:33 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>>>>>>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>>>>>>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>>>>>>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>>>>>>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>>>>>>> show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things.

    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's.

    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social >>>>>> costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument." >>>>>
    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death >>>> toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the
    place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational
    achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing
    government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    Wow! Larkin considers 2,000 people per day to be "relatively few" deaths. That was over 60,000 in the month of January to "protect" 20 million or 3 in 1,000 or 3,000 ppm. Yes, inconsequential, indeed!

    Do you think the vaccine causes nearly as many deaths? Probably, but they are good at covering it up. I've seen photos of the crematoriums running 24 hours per day.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Thu Feb 3 19:58:31 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things. >>>>>>>
    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still.

    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's. >>>>>>>
    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social
    costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did.

    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the >>> place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics.

    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational
    achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing
    government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost.

    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million
    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.
    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday

    This is the sort of silliness that laymen come up with. I have tried to talk about how the viral strains do not compete with one another directly. Each viral strain reproduces without exposure to others for the most part. However, rising infection
    numbers do produce a response in people's behavior. So when omicron ramped up, if it results in people taking more precautions, it could have reduced the spread of the delta and other variants. Remove those precautions and the older strains will start
    to reproduce in higher numbers again. With their higher rates of mortality and morbidity, we will see the death rates and hospital crowding go up again.

    It would seem this disease has our number and is giving us a call.

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Fri Feb 4 10:04:56 2022
    On 04/02/2022 03:58, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:36:52 AM UTC-8, lang...@fonz.dk wrote: >>>> onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 18.19.33 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/22 16:49, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 13:56, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 12:52:35 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 02/02/2022 01:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 8:55:21 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 19:13:45 +0000, Martin Brown
    <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian >>>>>>>>>>>>> official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated
    responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are
    wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed
    form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they
    have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't
    show it.


    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    This isn't a bad summary for a US audience:

    https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_how-cultural-differences-help-asian-countries-beat-covid-19-while-us-struggles/6193224.html


    US worships individual freedom to do really stupid things. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Most Asian ocuntries mask wearing when possibly sick was normal fro at
    least the 1990's and probably from much earlier still. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    City air was all but unbreatheable there in the late 1960's. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    https://www.alamy.com/1960s-historical-japanese-commuters-on-the-tokyo-metro-with-the-men-in-raincoats-and-a-japanese-lady-wearing-a-face-pollution-mask-image339801259.html

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jan/31/lockdowns-had-little-or-no-impact-covid-19-deaths-/



    "While this meta-analysis concludes that lockdowns have had little to no
    public health effects, they have imposed enormous economic and social
    costs where they have been adopted. In consequence, lockdown policies are
    ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument."

    John Larkin doesn't seem to have noticed the first line of the article.
    "Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths
    from COVID-19."

    I don't think it was true either. UK would have had a much larger death
    toll and an NHS failure if they had not locked down when they did. >>>>>>>>
    Country-by-country, or stste-by-state, statistics are all over the >>>>>>>> place, even in adjacent places with similar climates and demographics. >>>>>>>
    One thing is certain. The pandemic is 10x more likely to kill the people who
    have refused the vaccine. Mostly but not exclusively Republicans in the USA. In
    the UK vaccine hesitancy correlates more strongly with low educational >>>>>>> achievement and poverty (the two are closely linked).

    I've seen reasoned speculation that the low educational
    achievement is correlated with a distrust of authority,
    and the latter is relevant w.r.t. antivax beliefs.

    I imagine that if someone can't understand cause and
    effect, there will be a tendency for them to see everything
    as random luck or a conspiracy. Rational counterarguments
    would have zero effect.

    Having said that, if Boris Johnson told me the time,
    I would check my watch. Firstly to check he wasn't simply
    lying or making it up. Secondly to check his cronies hadn't
    stolen my watch.


    The data is terrible and the causalities are speculation.

    There is a very strong correlation between countries with a right wing >>>>>>> government and emphasis on individual freedom having much higher Covid fatality
    rates than those that are more middle of the road.

    Brazil, USA and UK being very obvious examples. All recently run by narcissistic
    populist demagogues surrounded by incompetent sycophants.

    Bolsinaro, Trump and Johnson they were all for devil take the hindmost. >>>>>>
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.
    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.
    here +80% is double and +60% triple vaccinated, and we have ~50000 new cases each day
    in population of 5.85million
    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday

    This is the sort of silliness that laymen come up with. I have tried to talk about how the viral strains do not compete with one another directly.

    *THEY DO BUT YOU ARE JUST TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND*.
    And yes *I AM SHOUTING*!

    From the moment that alpha came on the scene all the original wild
    forms were trashed into oblivion. Delta did the same to alpha and now
    Omicron is doing the same to it.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57489740

    The important thing about exponential growth it that it is pretty much
    winner takes all for the player with the largest growth exponent.

    You don't have to take my word for it:

    https://www.livescience.com/omicron-overtaking-delta

    Each viral strain reproduces without exposure to others for the most
    part. However, rising infection numbers do produce a response in
    people's behavior. So when omicron ramped up, if it results in people
    taking more precautions, it could have reduced the spread of the delta
    and other variants. Remove those precautions and the older strains will
    start to reproduce in higher numbers again. With their higher rates of mortality and morbidity, we will see the death rates and hospital
    crowding go up again.

    It would seem this disease has our number and is giving us a call.

    You really are an idiot. The strain with the fastest reproductive rate
    will always win out in the longer term. The others are quickly reduced
    to minor bit players on the sidelines not quite extinct but irrelevant.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Fri Feb 4 13:06:40 2022
    On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 5:05:07 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 04/02/2022 03:58, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:13:17 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    onsdag den 2. februar 2022 kl. 19.44.54 UTC+1 skrev Ed Lee:
    Omicron is so different from other Covid-19 that older vaccines won't help much.

    Don't know if it or vaccine or omicron, but even with ~50000 new cases each day the number
    in intensive care is 26 and falling, so restrictions no longer makes any sense, which is
    why they have been removed as of yesterday

    This is the sort of silliness that laymen come up with. I have tried to talk about how the viral strains do not compete with one another directly.
    *THEY DO BUT YOU ARE JUST TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND*.
    And yes *I AM SHOUTING*!

    Yes, you are shouting because you seem to think if you can't explain a concept you merely need to speak louder and it will all be clear.


    From the moment that alpha came on the scene all the original wild
    forms were trashed into oblivion. Delta did the same to alpha and now Omicron is doing the same to it.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57489740

    What was in that article that you think explains your mistaken concept of competition between strains?


    The important thing about exponential growth it that it is pretty much winner takes all for the player with the largest growth exponent.

    There is the problem. People think there is something inherent in one strain growing that somehow forces out another strain. This does not happen unless you have two things.

    1) The two strains must produce resistance to subsequent infection by the other, at least in one direction.
    2) The numbers of infected must be significant to the exposed population.

    I don't know of any place where this has happened. At least, there's no place I've seen where one strain has infected enough people to make a dent in the immunity of the population. I've posted some numbers for the US somewhere. I don't feel like
    fooling around with that since you seem to be resistant to learning about this and prefer to shout.


    You don't have to take my word for it:

    https://www.livescience.com/omicron-overtaking-delta

    Yes, particularly interesting is the quotes of Dr. Shiv Pillai, which clearly shows he also does not understand "competition".

    I can always tell someone has no clue about the issue when they talk about the percentage numbers rather than the absolute numbers. Because omicron spreads much more easily, there is no doubt it will increase in a percentage ranking. That says zero
    about how quickly the delta variant spreads because the two are not related until the number of people available for infection change significantly.


    Each viral strain reproduces without exposure to others for the most
    part. However, rising infection numbers do produce a response in
    people's behavior. So when omicron ramped up, if it results in people
    taking more precautions, it could have reduced the spread of the delta
    and other variants. Remove those precautions and the older strains will start to reproduce in higher numbers again. With their higher rates of mortality and morbidity, we will see the death rates and hospital
    crowding go up again.

    That's my point! The viruses do not compete directly. It is the human reaction that can reduce the infection rate of other, less infectious, strains. However, didn't we take significant responses to delta? So how much more can we do with omicron
    raging? I can't say anything about other countries, or even other parts of the US, but the parts I've been in have done virtually nothing different in response to omicron. No new regulations, no one I know has modified their behavior much really. I do
    notice airplanes are less occupied. Stores are full, masks are only worn by some.

    If omicron is so much more infectious, why would a very slight change in response cause the previous strains to go away? Why would such a minor change in behavior cause the omicron strain to go away?

    I'm beginning to think Larkin is right (for once) and there is some other factor at play which makes the strains naturally spread, peak and diminish. It is certainly not clear from the data I've seen unless you pretend and make up events and responses.
    That sort of analyzing after the fact can make any data fit a handy explanation.


    It would seem this disease has our number and is giving us a call.
    You really are an idiot. The strain with the fastest reproductive rate
    will always win out in the longer term. The others are quickly reduced
    to minor bit players on the sidelines not quite extinct but irrelevant.

    LOL You seem to believe on blind faith and can't explain your ideas. Although the parts you do explain are exactly what I have been saying.

    I wonder why people feel so free to misunderstand and call others idiots over the Internet. It must be related to that experiment they did in the 50s with two people driving truck route simulations with no communication, or a phone connection or just a
    horn. The horn produced the least amount of cooperation.

    BTW, you really should try trimming once in a while.

    --

    Rick C.

    ++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    ++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Fri Feb 4 21:47:01 2022
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 4:38:37 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    tirsdag den 1. februar 2022 kl. 22.16.49 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE Asian
    official made a remark about how in their country they have mandated >>> responses to Covid and have fewer deaths while in the US things are >>> wide open and we are dying left and right. He said it in a condensed >>> form, something like "We have the freedom to live and in the US they >>> have the freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but searches don't >>> show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from Japan.

    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make sense.
    They are doing one hell of a lot lot better than either the UK (today's figure is 110k new cases and rising faster again) or the USA. Face coverings stopped being mandatory in enclosed spaces in England last Tuesday - the effects of that change are just filtering through.

    Denmark has been around 30-50K new cases a day for while.
    All restrictions and mandates related to covid were removed today, because even
    with the large number of cases it doesn't make sense to have restriction with low
    the number of people in hospital for it

    What low numbers? Many hospitals in the US remain near maximum capacity. Death rates are climbing significantly too.

    What sort of idiot thinks the omicron variant is something we can ignore? If nothing else, we need to remember that this virus continues to change and every time a new infection arises, we are rolling the dice on a new variant and it can come up with
    snake eyes.

    It will probably be like the real estate reversal of 2008. We saw the same thing on a smaller scale around 1990. Then in 2008 it was said that there was no precedent for such an event! We've seen variants that appeared to be worse than earlier
    variants. Now with the higher infectiousness of omicron, we are at risk of a variant that is both more infectious and more dangerous.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 5 00:00:51 2022
    From the moment that alpha came on the scene all the original wild
    forms were trashed into oblivion. Delta did the same to alpha and now
    Omicron is doing the same to it.

    I don't know your (UK) Alpha, but our (US) Alpha was long gone before Delta. Alpha was replaced by Xi. Xi was (not) a friend of mine. I know Xi. Alpha/Delta ain't Xi.

    Alpha: Mar 2020 to Jun 2020, VIP
    Xi: Jun 2020 to Present
    Delta: Jun 2021 to Oct 2021, VIP
    Omicron: Dec 2021 to Present

    Notice that Xi (Class B: D614G, Class C: D614G+E484Q) was king in Nov 2021. Delta was gone and Omicron was not there yet.

    Xi remain fairly constant during the Delta wave. I did not track it closely, but can probably be proven from historical data. But for Omicron:

    [Samples/New Cases]_|_Xi_Class_B__Xi_Class_C__Omicron
    01: [30893/0670000] | 07%(045501) 92%(614241) 01%(0004077)
    02: [13434/0832000] | 03%(021676) 76%(637099) 16%(0132164)
    03: [15960/0860000] | 04%(037127) 52%(444495) 38%(0330206)
    04: [07619/1430000] | 02%(035285) 32%(457022) 59%(0848353)
    05: [06773/2800000] | 12%(339820) 19%(523786) 60%(1675535)
    06: [08068/5300000] | 03%(139923) 08%(434222) 85%(4526153)
    07: [10431/4132000] | 06%(230546) 17%(692430) 71%(2928170)

    Xi (B and C) is fairly constant at around half a million to a million new cases per week. Omicron peaked at 85%, 4.5 million cases in week 6.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sat Feb 5 04:39:03 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn itself
    out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few deaths.
    It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully vaccinated -
    unless you have other serious diseases or medical issues, a fully
    vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be unlucky and get seriously ill
    despite their vaccines - but the risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents, unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against. You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely" is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to
    be more than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron. Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS. In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto accidents or, on the average, two per state per day.
    We see 20 times that rate die from Covid presently.


    If you are not vaccinated, Omicron is a clear and definite risk, and you should be very careful to avoid it. It is not as big a risk as earlier strains were, but it is very far from risk-free.

    Omicron is a risk to everyone, vaccinated or not. Worse, since it is reproducing so fast, it is more likely to give rise to a new mutation that both reproduces rapidly and is more dangerous.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Tom Gardner on Sat Feb 5 04:45:06 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 3:33:28 PM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
    Two full vaccinations plus a booster is /very/ definitely worth
    having for omicron.

    The protection against hospitalisation is ~90%. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/boosters-provide-high-level-of-protection-against-death-with-omicron

    That is the medical use of the term "high level of protection". Do you like 1 in 10 odds of serious disease or 1 in 20 chance of death?

    What ever happened to the whack job who talked about my vaccine not working without him getting a vaccine? Is he still here?

    --

    Rick C.

    +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sat Feb 5 15:13:40 2022
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few
    deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully vaccinated -
    unless you have other serious diseases or medical issues, a fully
    vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than a couple of days
    of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be unlucky and get
    seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the risk is background
    noise compared to traffic accidents, unexpected strokes, and any
    other cause of death that surrounds is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against. You
    use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high school
    teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely" is a good
    one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more than slightly
    ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron. Your statement
    comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS. In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto accidents or, on the
    average, two per state per day. We see 20 times that rate die from
    Covid presently.


    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems to
    have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of the
    thread. So let me try again.

    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher rates
    than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not comparing
    deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these are at a very
    low level.


    If you are not vaccinated, Omicron is a clear and definite risk,
    and you should be very careful to avoid it. It is not as big a risk
    as earlier strains were, but it is very far from risk-free.

    Omicron is a risk to everyone, vaccinated or not. Worse, since it is reproducing so fast, it is more likely to give rise to a new mutation
    that both reproduces rapidly and is more dangerous.


    Healthy, fully-vaccinated people are not dying of Omicron in any
    significant numbers - despite very high infection rates. There is a
    small fraction that get seriously ill with it, despite otherwise fair
    health and full vaccinations, so it is certainly not risk-free. But it
    is low enough risk that many of the more restrictive limitations have
    now become an overall negative thing - the risk of health problems due
    to lack of exercise and social interaction during lockdowns outweighs
    the risk of health problems due to Omicron, at least for healthy
    vaccinated people. (Easy measures, such as basic distancing and masks,
    are still worth using.)

    Unvaccinated people are at a far greater risk.

    People with serious medical conditions are always at a risk of getting
    worse, or dying - and Omicron increases those risks (far more so if you
    are not vaccinated).


    As for mutations, we will likely see some in the future. We are already
    seeing the BA2 variation of Omicron. But as with most mutations in most organisms, the differences are quite minor. There are many factors
    involved in the risk of serious mutations arising, and in how
    problematic such mutations might be.


    Omicron is infectious enough that it is spreading rapidly, and will
    continue to do so until a large proportion of people have had it. There
    is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can (and must) slow it to some
    extent to reduce the pressure on hospitals and on society. And we can
    hugely reduce the risk of severe infections by having as many people
    vaccinated as possible.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sat Feb 5 06:48:13 2022
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with relatively few
    deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully vaccinated -
    unless you have other serious diseases or medical issues, a fully
    vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than a couple of days
    of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be unlucky and get
    seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the risk is background
    noise compared to traffic accidents, unexpected strokes, and any
    other cause of death that surrounds is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against. You
    use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely" is a good
    one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more than slightly
    ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron. Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS. In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto accidents or, on the
    average, two per state per day. We see 20 times that rate die from
    Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems to
    have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of the
    thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not comparing
    deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these are at a very
    low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as "under 55" or "without major illness" or some
    other such exclusions.

    Ok, I did your homework for you and found that the risk of death from Covid for the fully vaccinated and boosted is about 70x lower than the unvaccinated. So that is very good. But that is not sufficient evidence to support your claim of being lower
    risk than auto accidents. I don't have the data to calculate how many would die from Covid if everyone were boosted. CDC has a page with some basic data, but not all the useful data for this issue, plus it seems to be rather old, ending in December and
    with significant increases toward the end of that month.

    https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status


    If you are not vaccinated, Omicron is a clear and definite risk,
    and you should be very careful to avoid it. It is not as big a risk
    as earlier strains were, but it is very far from risk-free.

    Omicron is a risk to everyone, vaccinated or not. Worse, since it is reproducing so fast, it is more likely to give rise to a new mutation
    that both reproduces rapidly and is more dangerous.

    Healthy, fully-vaccinated people are not dying of Omicron in any
    significant numbers - despite very high infection rates.

    Again, only if you define "significant numbers" as something objectionably high. I would ask that you show your work.


    There is a
    small fraction that get seriously ill with it, despite otherwise fair
    health and full vaccinations, so it is certainly not risk-free. But it
    is low enough risk that many of the more restrictive limitations have
    now become an overall negative thing - the risk of health problems due
    to lack of exercise and social interaction during lockdowns outweighs
    the risk of health problems due to Omicron, at least for healthy
    vaccinated people. (Easy measures, such as basic distancing and masks,
    are still worth using.)

    Unvaccinated people are at a far greater risk.

    People with serious medical conditions are always at a risk of getting worse, or dying - and Omicron increases those risks (far more so if you
    are not vaccinated).


    As for mutations, we will likely see some in the future. We are already seeing the BA2 variation of Omicron. But as with most mutations in most organisms, the differences are quite minor. There are many factors
    involved in the risk of serious mutations arising, and in how
    problematic such mutations might be.

    None of your speculation on the significance of mutations is of value. Mutations are "minor" right up until they are significant.


    Omicron is infectious enough that it is spreading rapidly, and will
    continue to do so until a large proportion of people have had it. There
    is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can (and must) slow it to some extent to reduce the pressure on hospitals and on society. And we can
    hugely reduce the risk of severe infections by having as many people vaccinated as possible.

    If there is nothing we can do to stop it, why are the numbers falling off so quickly before significant numbers have been infected?

    --

    Rick C.

    --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sat Feb 5 06:47:43 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 1:13:51 AM UTC+11, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner

    <snip>

    Omicron is infectious enough that it is spreading rapidly, and will
    continue to do so until a large proportion of people have had it.

    Or until about 95% of the population has been vaccinated, and we get into herd immunity. We may not be able to. Being vaccinated doesn't stop you getting infected, though it does become less likely, and you don't stay infectious for as long as an
    unvaccinated person would. It may be that the virus could continue to spread in a a fully vaccinated population, but we haven't got one yet, so we don't know. Measles is also very infectious, and we do seem to be able to get to herd immunity against it.

    There is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can (and must) slow it to some extent to reduce the pressure on hospitals and on society. And we can hugely reduce the risk of severe infections by having as many people vaccinated as possible.

    It's a bit too early to be confident that we can't get to herd immunity against Covid-19. It looks as if we'd need to vaccinated pretty much everybody - possibly even the under-fives - to get there, but there's no convincing reason to claim that it is
    impossible - except perhaps in the more lunatic right-wing fringes of American society.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Sat Feb 5 17:51:43 2022
    On 05/02/2022 15:47, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 1:13:51 AM UTC+11, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner

    <snip>

    Omicron is infectious enough that it is spreading rapidly, and will
    continue to do so until a large proportion of people have had it.

    Or until about 95% of the population has been vaccinated, and we get
    into herd immunity. We may not be able to. Being vaccinated doesn't
    stop you getting infected, though it does become less likely, and you
    don't stay infectious for as long as an unvaccinated person would. It
    may be that the virus could continue to spread in a a fully
    vaccinated population, but we haven't got one yet, so we don't know.
    Measles is also very infectious, and we do seem to be able to get to
    herd immunity against it.

    That is true. I don't know the percentages who have either had the
    measles vaccine or had the disease, but in the western world it is very
    high. And the unvaccinated people tend to come in groups - thus
    vaccinated (or those who had the disease before vaccination became
    ubiquitous) form barriers that lower the risk of people in these groups
    getting it. Once one person in the group gets it, however, so do all
    the others.

    People who remain unvaccinated against Covid are more spread out
    throughout the population, which means that the disease can continue to
    spread.

    There are also differences in the effectiveness of the vaccine - the
    measles vaccine is very effective, preventing almost all infections,
    while the Covid one is much less effective against Omicron.

    A simple percentage vaccinated does not cover all the details here.


    There is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can (and must) slow
    it to some extent to reduce the pressure on hospitals and on
    society. And we can hugely reduce the risk of severe infections by
    having as many people vaccinated as possible.

    It's a bit too early to be confident that we can't get to herd
    immunity against Covid-19. It looks as if we'd need to vaccinated
    pretty much everybody - possibly even the under-fives - to get there,
    but there's no convincing reason to claim that it is impossible -
    except perhaps in the more lunatic right-wing fringes of American
    society.


    It is not just the lunatic right-wing fringes of the USA that are
    refusing the vaccine.

    Maybe we will achieve herd immunity to Covid, maybe not - only time will
    tell. Herd immunity always takes time and a combination of high
    vaccination rates with an effective vaccine, and enough time for a large proportion of the unvaccinated to have had the disease. It also depends
    on how long immunity lasts, either from vaccines or the disease.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sat Feb 5 18:38:43 2022
    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical
    issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than
    a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be
    unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the
    risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds
    is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against.
    You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high
    school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely"
    is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more
    than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron.
    Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS.
    In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20
    times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems
    to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of
    the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher
    rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional
    severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these
    are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence
    the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as
    "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions.



    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    The comparison to traffic accidents was not about Covid death rates.
    Not Omicron, not Delta, not any other variants.

    Read that paragraph again, and tell me if I am still not clear.


    The comparison was with deaths (or other serious side-effects) from
    taking a /vaccine/ for Covid. Not the disease - the /vaccine/. Some
    people refuse to take the vaccine on the basis that people have died
    from the vaccine. My point was that while it is true that a few people
    have died as a direct result to taking the vaccine, the risks are tiny.


    Ok, I did your homework for you and found that the risk of death from
    Covid for the fully vaccinated and boosted is about 70x lower than
    the unvaccinated. So that is very good. But that is not sufficient
    evidence to support your claim of being lower risk than auto
    accidents. I don't have the data to calculate how many would die
    from Covid if everyone were boosted. CDC has a page with some basic
    data, but not all the useful data for this issue, plus it seems to be
    rather old, ending in December and with significant increases toward
    the end of that month.

    https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status


    Note that this is for Covid in general, not Omicron specifically.


    If you are not vaccinated, Omicron is a clear and definite
    risk, and you should be very careful to avoid it. It is not as
    big a risk as earlier strains were, but it is very far from
    risk-free.

    Omicron is a risk to everyone, vaccinated or not. Worse, since it
    is reproducing so fast, it is more likely to give rise to a new
    mutation that both reproduces rapidly and is more dangerous.

    Healthy, fully-vaccinated people are not dying of Omicron in any
    significant numbers - despite very high infection rates.

    Again, only if you define "significant numbers" as something
    objectionably high. I would ask that you show your work.


    Significant in comparison to the number of cases. There has been a
    clear pattern that since Omicron became the dominant variant,
    hospitalisations, intensive care, and death rates have not increased
    anything like as much as the case rates.

    <https://www.healthline.com/health-news/omicron-is-91-percent-less-likely-to-cause-death-than-delta-variant>


    Of course /anyone/ dying is "significant" for the person and their family.

    According to <https://ourworldindata.org>, Norway currently has a daily
    new case rate per million that is over 3500. This is a lot higher than
    the USA or the UK - we are a little later than you, and probably better
    at testing (we're a dutiful people) even with negligible symptoms. Our
    death rate is less than 1 per day, and that's including unvaccinated,
    elderly, and those with other severe medical conditions. The death
    rates in the USA and the UK are higher, but that's likely due to lower vaccination rates and the result of Delta (which was much more
    controlled in Norway).


    There is a small fraction that get seriously ill with it, despite
    otherwise fair health and full vaccinations, so it is certainly not
    risk-free. But it is low enough risk that many of the more
    restrictive limitations have now become an overall negative thing -
    the risk of health problems due to lack of exercise and social
    interaction during lockdowns outweighs the risk of health problems
    due to Omicron, at least for healthy vaccinated people. (Easy
    measures, such as basic distancing and masks, are still worth
    using.)

    Unvaccinated people are at a far greater risk.

    People with serious medical conditions are always at a risk of
    getting worse, or dying - and Omicron increases those risks (far
    more so if you are not vaccinated).


    As for mutations, we will likely see some in the future. We are
    already seeing the BA2 variation of Omicron. But as with most
    mutations in most organisms, the differences are quite minor. There
    are many factors involved in the risk of serious mutations arising,
    and in how problematic such mutations might be.

    None of your speculation on the significance of mutations is of
    value. Mutations are "minor" right up until they are significant.


    Equally, none of /your/ speculations about mutations are of any value -
    "they are minor right up until they are significant" means precisely
    that there might be a problem with mutations in the future, or might not be.


    Omicron is infectious enough that it is spreading rapidly, and will
    continue to do so until a large proportion of people have had it.
    There is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can (and must) slow
    it to some extent to reduce the pressure on hospitals and on
    society. And we can hugely reduce the risk of severe infections by
    having as many people vaccinated as possible.

    If there is nothing we can do to stop it, why are the numbers falling
    off so quickly before significant numbers have been infected?


    Significant numbers /have/ been infected. Something like 20-25% of
    people in the UK and USA have had Covid, with about than half that in
    the last couple of months since Omicron came on the scene. Since full vaccination with booster gives you approximately 50% protection against
    getting Omicron, and something like 70-80% are vaccinated, that means
    around 40% of the population in these countries have either had Omicron,
    or been exposed to it and won't get it (at the moment) due to their
    vaccine. Most of the less socially active part of the population will
    get exposure sooner or later, but at a lower rate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to david.brown@hesbynett.no on Sat Feb 5 09:42:26 2022
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown
    <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical
    issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than
    a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be
    unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the
    risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds
    is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against.
    You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high
    school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely"
    is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more
    than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron.
    Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS.
    In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20
    times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems
    to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of
    the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher
    rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional
    severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these
    are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence
    the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as
    "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions.



    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    --

    John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc trk

    The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
    "Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk on Sat Feb 5 09:58:04 2022
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 17:45:00 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown
    <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical
    issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than
    a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be
    unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the
    risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds
    is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against.
    You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high
    school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely"
    is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more
    than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron.
    Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS.
    In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20
    times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems
    to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of
    the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher
    rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional
    severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these
    are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence
    the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as
    "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions.



    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    True. I skipped directly to the insults.

    It must be nice to know everything and to always be right.



    --

    John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc trk

    The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
    "Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat Feb 5 17:45:00 2022
    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown
    <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical
    issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than
    a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be
    unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the
    risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds
    is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against.
    You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high
    school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely"
    is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more
    than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron.
    Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS.
    In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20
    times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems
    to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of
    the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher
    rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional
    severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these
    are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence
    the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as
    "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions.



    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sat Feb 5 18:37:36 2022
    Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:f78a37b9-0ca5-460e-b47d-58119fcc0dc0n@googlegroups.com:

    Omicron is a risk to everyone, vaccinated or not. Worse, since it
    is reproducing so fast, it is more likely to give rise to a new
    mutation that both reproduces rapidly and is more dangerous.


    Exact proper observation. This entire time. Had we ALL done just
    that, we would not be where we are now, and the dopes cause it to
    'ebb and flow'. There would be no 'perturbations' in the wrong
    direction had everyone followed their civic duty and masked up. If
    only some leader type person had 'instructed the nation' to do just
    that.
    Imagine that... there was a way out. It simply was deliberately
    ignored. And still.

    The very reason to follow one's civic duty and remain masked and
    isolated whenever possible until it is no longer "blowin' in the
    wind".

    We may all be Bozos on this bus, but those ignoring these simple
    abatement protocols is the reason it still persists.

    They should look at gas station fuel pump handles and do swabs to
    see if it is present, because if that is a transmission vector, it is
    what they missed all along. Handles and door handles and flush
    handles.
    You know... all those things that Howie Mandel was always leery of.
    Oh and 'Monk' even worse. If those are transmission vectors, then
    the world needs to modernize their 'think' surrounding close social interactivity, since we know about these and other 'lil critters.

    Simple folks. Mask up. Refrain from being 'handsy' in
    introductions and such. Wash your hands often. Ordinary ab hand
    soaps, because too much alcohol based hand sanitizer 'defats the
    tissue'. Not good for the dermis.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sat Feb 5 18:45:57 2022
    David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote in news:stm0mk$h51$1@dont- email.me:

    - the risk of health problems due
    to lack of exercise and social interaction during lockdowns outweighs
    the risk of health problems due to Omicron, at least for healthy
    vaccinated people.

    OMG make shit up from seen on TV tidbits much?
    You are right though. Lockdown diet considerations must be made so
    that one does not glut one's self out... too many times. It has to be
    a personal conscious effort.

    We going to need hover chairs soon?

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0_DgrFgUkw>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat Feb 5 19:30:41 2022
    On 05/02/22 17:58, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 17:45:00 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown
    <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn >>>>>>>>> itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical >>>>>>>> issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than >>>>>>>> a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be >>>>>>>> unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the >>>>>>>> risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds >>>>>>>> is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against.
    You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high >>>>>>> school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely" >>>>>>> is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more
    than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron. >>>>>>> Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS. >>>>>>> In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20
    times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems
    to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of >>>>>> the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher >>>>>> rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from >>>>>> traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional
    severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these
    are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence >>>>> the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as >>>>> "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions. >>>>>


    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    True. I skipped directly to the insults.

    It must be nice to know everything and to always be right.

    Que?

    The explanation you snipped was /after/ that. You skipped
    directly to something which supported you world-view, and
    ignored anything "awkward" after that.

    Hypotheses:
    - you didn't read the explanations at all
    - you preferred to find something to snipe at, rather
    than read what had been written
    - you were cognitively impaired when you replied

    or maybe you have a different explanation?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk on Sat Feb 5 15:08:48 2022
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 19:30:41 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/02/22 17:58, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 17:45:00 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown
    <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown >>>>>>>> wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd >>>>>>>>>>> immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn >>>>>>>>>> itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical >>>>>>>>> issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than >>>>>>>>> a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be >>>>>>>>> unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the >>>>>>>>> risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds >>>>>>>>> is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against. >>>>>>>> You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high >>>>>>>> school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely" >>>>>>>> is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more >>>>>>>> than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron. >>>>>>>> Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS. >>>>>>>> In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20 >>>>>>>> times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems >>>>>>> to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of >>>>>>> the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher >>>>>>> rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from >>>>>>> traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional >>>>>>> severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these >>>>>>> are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence >>>>>> the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as >>>>>> "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions. >>>>>>


    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    True. I skipped directly to the insults.

    It must be nice to know everything and to always be right.

    Que?

    The explanation you snipped was /after/ that. You skipped
    directly to something which supported you world-view, and
    ignored anything "awkward" after that.

    Hypotheses:
    - you didn't read the explanations at all
    - you preferred to find something to snipe at, rather
    than read what had been written
    - you were cognitively impaired when you replied

    or maybe you have a different explanation?

    I read electronics. The chicken-cackle posts are long and many.

    --

    John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc trk

    The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
    "Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat Feb 5 16:46:47 2022
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
    I read electronics. The chicken-cackle posts are long and many.

    So why do you make them?

    I think you just enjoy the arguments, being rude and essentially, being a nasty person. You take pride in it and strive to do it well. I guess you have succeeded.

    --

    Rick C.

    --+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    --+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sat Feb 5 16:48:24 2022
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 12:38:54 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown
    wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner
    /Initially/ there was some scientific opinions that herd
    immunity was a valid strategy, but that changed quickly.

    The new strain seems to infect vaccinated people and to burn
    itself out with a case FWHM of about a month, with
    relatively few deaths. It's sort of a free vaccine.

    It is a free /booster/ for those who are already fully
    vaccinated - unless you have other serious diseases or medical
    issues, a fully vaccinated person is unlikely to have more than
    a couple of days of mild symptoms with Omicron. They /might/ be
    unlucky and get seriously ill despite their vaccines - but the
    risk is background noise compared to traffic accidents,
    unexpected strokes, and any other cause of death that surrounds
    is.

    This is the sort of BS a high school teacher warned us against.
    You use vague terms to describe the omicron variant, what my high
    school teacher would call, "glittering generalities". "Unlikely"
    is a good one. Yes, you have always been "unlikely" to be more
    than slightly ill from Covid, so this is nothing new to omicron.
    Your statement comparing omicron to traffic accidents is pure BS.
    In the US we have approximately 100 deaths per day from auto
    accidents or, on the average, two per state per day. We see 20
    times that rate die from Covid presently.

    You misunderstood me. I was not clear, and a lot of context seems
    to have disappeared in snipping - possibly in different branches of
    the thread. So let me try again.

    I don't think you were unclear.


    Unvaccinated people die of Covid, including Omicron, at far higher
    rates than traffic accidents. That is obvious. But I was not
    comparing deaths from Omicron to traffic accidents.

    I was comparing the risk of the Covid /vaccine/ with the risk from
    traffic accidents. It is true that there have been occasional
    severe side-effects and even deaths from the vaccines, but these
    are at a very low level.

    For some undefined value of "low level". I've not seen any evidence
    the rate of death or morbidity is low enough to be less than auto
    accidents for the vaccinated unless you single out a subgroup such as "under 55" or "without major illness" or some other such exclusions.


    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    The comparison to traffic accidents was not about Covid death rates.
    Not Omicron, not Delta, not any other variants.

    Read that paragraph again, and tell me if I am still not clear.


    The comparison was with deaths (or other serious side-effects) from
    taking a /vaccine/ for Covid. Not the disease - the /vaccine/. Some
    people refuse to take the vaccine on the basis that people have died
    from the vaccine. My point was that while it is true that a few people
    have died as a direct result to taking the vaccine, the risks are tiny.
    Ok, I did your homework for you and found that the risk of death from
    Covid for the fully vaccinated and boosted is about 70x lower than
    the unvaccinated. So that is very good. But that is not sufficient
    evidence to support your claim of being lower risk than auto
    accidents. I don't have the data to calculate how many would die
    from Covid if everyone were boosted. CDC has a page with some basic
    data, but not all the useful data for this issue, plus it seems to be rather old, ending in December and with significant increases toward
    the end of that month.

    https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

    Note that this is for Covid in general, not Omicron specifically.

    If you are not vaccinated, Omicron is a clear and definite
    risk, and you should be very careful to avoid it. It is not as
    big a risk as earlier strains were, but it is very far from
    risk-free.

    Omicron is a risk to everyone, vaccinated or not. Worse, since it
    is reproducing so fast, it is more likely to give rise to a new
    mutation that both reproduces rapidly and is more dangerous.

    Healthy, fully-vaccinated people are not dying of Omicron in any
    significant numbers - despite very high infection rates.

    Again, only if you define "significant numbers" as something
    objectionably high. I would ask that you show your work.

    Significant in comparison to the number of cases. There has been a
    clear pattern that since Omicron became the dominant variant, hospitalisations, intensive care, and death rates have not increased
    anything like as much as the case rates.

    <https://www.healthline.com/health-news/omicron-is-91-percent-less-likely-to-cause-death-than-delta-variant>


    Of course /anyone/ dying is "significant" for the person and their family.

    According to <https://ourworldindata.org>, Norway currently has a daily
    new case rate per million that is over 3500. This is a lot higher than
    the USA or the UK - we are a little later than you, and probably better
    at testing (we're a dutiful people) even with negligible symptoms. Our
    death rate is less than 1 per day, and that's including unvaccinated, elderly, and those with other severe medical conditions. The death
    rates in the USA and the UK are higher, but that's likely due to lower vaccination rates and the result of Delta (which was much more
    controlled in Norway).

    There is a small fraction that get seriously ill with it, despite
    otherwise fair health and full vaccinations, so it is certainly not
    risk-free. But it is low enough risk that many of the more
    restrictive limitations have now become an overall negative thing -
    the risk of health problems due to lack of exercise and social
    interaction during lockdowns outweighs the risk of health problems
    due to Omicron, at least for healthy vaccinated people. (Easy
    measures, such as basic distancing and masks, are still worth
    using.)

    Unvaccinated people are at a far greater risk.

    People with serious medical conditions are always at a risk of
    getting worse, or dying - and Omicron increases those risks (far
    more so if you are not vaccinated).


    As for mutations, we will likely see some in the future. We are
    already seeing the BA2 variation of Omicron. But as with most
    mutations in most organisms, the differences are quite minor. There
    are many factors involved in the risk of serious mutations arising,
    and in how problematic such mutations might be.

    None of your speculation on the significance of mutations is of
    value. Mutations are "minor" right up until they are significant.

    Equally, none of /your/ speculations about mutations are of any value -
    "they are minor right up until they are significant" means precisely
    that there might be a problem with mutations in the future, or might not be.

    Omicron is infectious enough that it is spreading rapidly, and will
    continue to do so until a large proportion of people have had it.
    There is nothing we can do to stop it, but we can (and must) slow
    it to some extent to reduce the pressure on hospitals and on
    society. And we can hugely reduce the risk of severe infections by
    having as many people vaccinated as possible.

    If there is nothing we can do to stop it, why are the numbers falling
    off so quickly before significant numbers have been infected?

    Significant numbers /have/ been infected. Something like 20-25% of
    people in the UK and USA have had Covid, with about than half that in
    the last couple of months since Omicron came on the scene. Since full vaccination with booster gives you approximately 50% protection against getting Omicron, and something like 70-80% are vaccinated, that means
    around 40% of the population in these countries have either had Omicron,
    or been exposed to it and won't get it (at the moment) due to their
    vaccine. Most of the less socially active part of the population will
    get exposure sooner or later, but at a lower rate.

    I apologize. You were not unclear, I was speed reading and failed to understand what you wrote.

    --

    Rick C.

    -+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sat Feb 5 17:19:30 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 10:09:01 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 19:30:41 +0000, Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/02/22 17:58, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 17:45:00 +0000, Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown <david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 15:48, Rick C wrote:
    On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 9:13:51 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote: >>>>>>> On 05/02/2022 13:39, Rick C wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
    On 02/02/2022 18:19, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 17:04:03 +0000, Tom Gardner

    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being >>>>> unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    True. I skipped directly to the insults.

    It must be nice to know everything and to always be right.

    Que?

    The explanation you snipped was /after/ that. You skipped
    directly to something which supported you world-view, and
    ignored anything "awkward" after that.

    Hypotheses:
    - you didn't read the explanations at all
    - you preferred to find something to snipe at, rather
    than read what had been written
    - you were cognitively impaired when you replied

    or maybe you have a different explanation?

    I read electronics. The chicken-cackle posts are long and many.

    John Larkin reads about electronics to the extent that he thinks he can make money out of it.

    Other bits of text get at most a cursory once-over. If he thinks that he has found something to snipe at, he will snipe at it, but he doesn't read carefully enough to get it right all that often. If you don't know enough to understand what is actually
    being said, it can well look like chicken cackle to a bird-brain.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sun Feb 6 09:25:50 2022
    On 06/02/22 00:48, Rick C wrote:
    I apologize. You were not unclear, I was speed reading and failed to understand what you wrote.

    Brownie points duly awarded :)

    If that isn't clear to furrigners, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_points

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sun Feb 6 11:03:12 2022
    On 05/02/2022 05:47, Rick C wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 4:38:37 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk
    wrote:
    tirsdag den 1. februar 2022 kl. 22.16.49 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown
    wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE
    Asian official made a remark about how in their country
    they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths
    while in the US things are wide open and we are dying left
    and right. He said it in a condensed form, something like
    "We have the freedom to live and in the US they have the
    freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but
    searches don't show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from
    Japan.

    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the
    message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they
    have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make
    sense.
    They are doing one hell of a lot lot better than either the UK
    (today's figure is 110k new cases and rising faster again) or the
    USA. Face coverings stopped being mandatory in enclosed spaces in
    England last Tuesday - the effects of that change are just
    filtering through.

    Denmark has been around 30-50K new cases a day for while. All
    restrictions and mandates related to covid were removed today,
    because even with the large number of cases it doesn't make sense
    to have restriction with low the number of people in hospital for
    it

    What low numbers? Many hospitals in the US remain near maximum
    capacity. Death rates are climbing significantly too.

    They *are* remarkably low numbers in Denmark if his figures are
    accurate. I presume like the UK they have a high proportion of people at
    least double vaccinated and a majority by now triple vaccinated.

    US has a serious problem with their antivaxxers and risky behaviour in a
    35% of the population. The Omicron variant now kills 9 unvaccinated
    people for every vaccinated individual that it claims. Ratio for hospitalisation is about the same too - length of stay 2x longer if unvaccinated.

    What sort of idiot thinks the omicron variant is something we can
    ignore?

    Not exactly ignore but it appears to be something that we can now live
    with in the UK without the hospitals being overwhelmed. It remains to be
    seen how bad the AB.2 wave will become. UK now has no legal restrictions
    (which may be unwise but the government is in disarray).

    ONS statistics still show ~5% infection levels in the population and now decreasing slowly but it has been about that high for several weeks.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections

    The virus will run out of people to infect here before too much longer.

    If nothing else, we need to remember that this virus continues to
    change and every time a new infection arises, we are rolling the dice
    on a new variant and it can come up with snake eyes.

    That much is true and at the moment the proportion triple vaccinated in
    the UK is more or less perfect for optimum risk of another vaccine
    escape variant arising, but the government makes the policy and they are
    quite prepared to cull 2k people a week to keep everything open.

    It will probably be like the real estate reversal of 2008. We saw
    the same thing on a smaller scale around 1990. Then in 2008 it was
    said that there was no precedent for such an event! We've seen
    variants that appeared to be worse than earlier variants. Now with
    the higher infectiousness of omicron, we are at risk of a variant
    that is both more infectious and more dangerous.

    Omicron itself is more infectious but less deadly than any of its
    ancestors. It is also ripping through the UK population at a fair rate - burnout will be in between 10 and 20 weeks at the 5% infected levels we
    have been seeing. Thankfully hospitalisations did not go as high as the
    experts predicted. The government did call that one right.
    (but that was just good luck)

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 6 03:40:25 2022
    søndag den 6. februar 2022 kl. 12.03.27 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 05/02/2022 05:47, Rick C wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 4:38:37 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk
    wrote:
    tirsdag den 1. februar 2022 kl. 22.16.49 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown
    wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:
    I can never find this quote when I am looking for it. A SE
    Asian official made a remark about how in their country
    they have mandated responses to Covid and have fewer deaths
    while in the US things are wide open and we are dying left
    and right. He said it in a condensed form, something like
    "We have the freedom to live and in the US they have the
    freedom to die".

    I know it has been posted here a number of times, but
    searches don't show it.
    I don't recognise the quote - it is too impolite to be from
    Japan.

    It was from Vietnam. Someone here wrote or forwarded the
    message when Vietnam's cases were low. But shortly after, they
    have had 10k daily new cases and the quote no longer make
    sense.
    They are doing one hell of a lot lot better than either the UK
    (today's figure is 110k new cases and rising faster again) or the
    USA. Face coverings stopped being mandatory in enclosed spaces in
    England last Tuesday - the effects of that change are just
    filtering through.

    Denmark has been around 30-50K new cases a day for while. All
    restrictions and mandates related to covid were removed today,
    because even with the large number of cases it doesn't make sense
    to have restriction with low the number of people in hospital for
    it

    What low numbers? Many hospitals in the US remain near maximum
    capacity. Death rates are climbing significantly too.
    They *are* remarkably low numbers in Denmark if his figures are
    accurate. I presume like the UK they have a high proportion of people at least double vaccinated and a majority by now triple vaccinated.

    straight from the Danish health authorities: https://www.sst.dk/en/English/Corona-eng/Status-of-the-epidemic/COVID-19-updates-Statistics-and-charts

    numbers for the last 24h:
    +80% double , +60% triple, vaccinated
    PCR tests: 166.203
    First time positive: 41.712
    Hospitalised with corona: 1.116
    In ICU because of corona: 27
    On ventilator because of corona: 12










    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 6 03:49:29 2022
    søndag den 6. februar 2022 kl. 12.33.32 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
    On 06/02/22 11:03, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 05:47, Rick C wrote:
    What sort of idiot thinks the omicron variant is something we can
    ignore?

    Not exactly ignore but it appears to be something that we can now live with in the UK without the hospitals being overwhelmed. It remains to be seen how bad the AB.2 wave will become. UK now has no legal restrictions (which may be unwise but the government is in disarray).
    Not quite!

    In Northern Ireland, which is currently part of the UK, masks
    will be legally required for the indefinite future.

    Why? Because that devolved parliament with its devolved (in
    a different sense) MPs is playing politics. It appears that
    there is legally no way to rescind the laws requiring masks
    until they get their act together.

    here they were at least smart enough to put a time limit
    on the special covid laws, so they had to be periodically reevaluated
    and readopted or expire

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Gardner@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Feb 6 11:33:22 2022
    On 06/02/22 11:03, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 05:47, Rick C wrote:
    What sort of idiot thinks the omicron variant is something we can
    ignore?

    Not exactly ignore but it appears to be something that we can now live
    with in the UK without the hospitals being overwhelmed. It remains to be
    seen how bad the AB.2 wave will become. UK now has no legal restrictions (which may be unwise but the government is in disarray).

    Not quite!

    In Northern Ireland, which is currently part of the UK, masks
    will be legally required for the indefinite future.

    Why? Because that devolved parliament with its devolved (in
    a different sense) MPs is playing politics. It appears that
    there is legally no way to rescind the laws requiring masks
    until they get their act together.

    And /that/ is notoriously difficult!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Feb 6 05:35:06 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 10:03:27 PM UTC+11, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 05:47, Rick C wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 4:38:37 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    tirsdag den 1. februar 2022 kl. 22.16.49 UTC+1 skrev Martin Brown:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote: >>>>> On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:

    <snip>

    US has a serious problem with their antivaxxers and risky behaviour in a
    35% of the population. The Omicron variant now kills 9 unvaccinated
    people for every vaccinated individual that it claims. Ratio for hospitalisation is about the same too - length of stay 2x longer if unvaccinated.

    What sort of idiot thinks the omicron variant is something we can
    ignore?

    Not exactly ignore but it appears to be something that we can now live
    with in the UK without the hospitals being overwhelmed. It remains to be seen how bad the AB.2 wave will become. UK now has no legal restrictions (which may be unwise but the government is in disarray).

    ONS statistics still show ~5% infection levels in the population and now decreasing slowly but it has been about that high for several weeks.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections

    The virus will run out of people to infect here before too much longer.

    It may run out of people that are really easy to infect sometime soon, but Omicron is perfectly capable of infecting the fully vaccinated and boosted, and can exploit them as carriers and as places to reproduce and produce new variants. The vaccinated -
    and the previously infected - are harder to infect, and don't stay infected for as long, but as a route to herd immunity, letting everybody get infected once isn't looking great (even ignoring the people who get really sick and occasionally die in the
    process).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Feb 6 15:57:17 2022
    On 06/02/2022 12:03, Martin Brown wrote:

    US has a serious problem with their antivaxxers and risky behaviour in a
    35% of the population. The Omicron variant now kills 9 unvaccinated
    people for every vaccinated individual that it claims. Ratio for hospitalisation is about the same too - length of stay 2x longer if unvaccinated.

    Those figures miss out some vital points. First, there are many more vaccinated people than unvaccinated, meaning the base chance of dying of Omicron is a lot more than 9 times higher for unvaccinated people.
    Secondly, it is important to look at /who/ is dying. I can't find the references again, but there was an article published in Norway showing
    that the median age for vaccinated people who die of Covid was about 80
    - i.e., people who were mostly already near the end of their lives. For unvaccinated deaths, it was 40-50. Another article noted that
    three-quarters of the unvaccinated people who died of Covid in the USA
    had at least 4 co-morbidities (medical conditions making them a lot more
    likely to die).

    Anti-vaxers are /much/ more likely to die of Covid, and to do so even if
    they are young and healthy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Sun Feb 6 16:07:05 2022
    On 06/02/2022 00:08, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 19:30:41 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/02/22 17:58, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 17:45:00 +0000, Tom Gardner
    <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown

    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    True. I skipped directly to the insults.

    There were no insults. Rick missed the point of my post - that's a
    fact, not an insult. It might have been my fault, it might have been
    his fault, it might be a combined effort. That is not an argument I
    want to have, so I took the blame on myself and tried to be clearer.


    It must be nice to know everything and to always be right.

    Que?

    The explanation you snipped was /after/ that. You skipped
    directly to something which supported you world-view, and
    ignored anything "awkward" after that.

    Hypotheses:
    - you didn't read the explanations at all
    - you preferred to find something to snipe at, rather
    than read what had been written
    - you were cognitively impaired when you replied

    or maybe you have a different explanation?

    I read electronics. The chicken-cackle posts are long and many.


    Learn to snip posts - then they will not be as long to wade through.
    And you make as many "chicken-cackle" posts as anyone here. (There's
    nothing wrong with that, it's a popular pastime for many in this group.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Tom Gardner on Sun Feb 6 16:08:29 2022
    On 06/02/2022 10:25, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 06/02/22 00:48, Rick C wrote:
    I apologize.  You were not unclear, I was speed reading and failed to
    understand what you wrote.

    Brownie points duly awarded :)

    If that isn't clear to furrigners, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_points

    You'll be looking for your Blue Peter badge now, won't you? :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Tom Gardner on Sun Feb 6 16:02:19 2022
    On 05/02/2022 18:45, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 05/02/22 17:42, John Larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:38:43 +0100, David Brown


    It seems that not only was I unclear before, but I am still being
    unclear - you are again missing the point.

    "Attack the issues, not the people."

    He very carefully explained the faulty reasoning - again.

    The explanation is in the bit you chose to snip, possibly
    because you didn't bother to read it.

    I was also rather careful not to "attack" Rick - if anything, I attacked /myself/. (And I certainly /was/ unclear to start with, though I
    thought my follow-up was clear enough.)

    I don't agree with Rick on everything, but he is usually well-informed
    and thoughtful, and I know we agree on the main points here. So when
    there is such an apparent difference of opinions, it is obvious there
    has been a misunderstanding or miscommunication. It is less obvious -
    and also less important - whether the main fault lies in the writing or
    the reading.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Sun Feb 6 16:07:43 2022
    On 06/02/2022 01:48, Rick C wrote:


    I apologize. You were not unclear, I was speed reading and failed to understand what you wrote.


    No problem - and I /was/ unclear the first time round.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun Feb 6 15:20:55 2022
    David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote in news:stoo9d$ns8$3@dont-email.me:

    On 06/02/2022 10:25, Tom Gardner wrote:
    On 06/02/22 00:48, Rick C wrote:
    I apologize.  You were not unclear, I was speed reading and
    failed to understand what you wrote.

    Brownie points duly awarded :)

    If that isn't clear to furrigners,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_points

    You'll be looking for your Blue Peter badge now, won't you? :-)



    If you squeeze it too tightly it might turn blue.

    <https://youtu.be/BpV5wTbvq8M?t=54>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Feb 6 10:28:10 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
    Omicron itself is more infectious but less deadly than any of its
    ancestors. It is also ripping through the UK population at a fair rate - burnout will be in between 10 and 20 weeks at the 5% infected levels we
    have been seeing. Thankfully hospitalisations did not go as high as the experts predicted. The government did call that one right.
    (but that was just good luck)

    Your premise is misstated. You mean the omicron variant has a lower likelihood of death for each infected person. However, the higher infection rates more than make up for that increasing the death rate above the level prior to the rise of omicron.
    Hmmm... that could be an action movie, "The rise and fall of Omicron!"

    UK death rates from covid had dropped to less than 10 per day. It rose to around 100-150 from delta before rising to 250 per day for omicron. No, omicron is not less deadly than other variants.

    --

    Rick C.

    -++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    -++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 6 10:56:11 2022
    søndag den 6. februar 2022 kl. 19.28.17 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
    Omicron itself is more infectious but less deadly than any of its ancestors. It is also ripping through the UK population at a fair rate - burnout will be in between 10 and 20 weeks at the 5% infected levels we have been seeing. Thankfully hospitalisations did not go as high as the experts predicted. The government did call that one right.
    (but that was just good luck)
    Your premise is misstated. You mean the omicron variant has a lower likelihood of death for each infected person. However, the higher infection rates more than make up for that increasing the death rate above the level prior to the rise of omicron.
    Hmmm... that could be an action movie, "The rise and fall of Omicron!"

    UK death rates from covid had dropped to less than 10 per day. It rose to around 100-150 from delta before rising to 250 per day for omicron. No, omicron is not less deadly than other variants.


    you never see anything as good news do you?, always impending doom, deaths rising or falling

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to lang...@fonz.dk on Sun Feb 6 15:58:07 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    søndag den 6. februar 2022 kl. 19.28.17 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
    Omicron itself is more infectious but less deadly than any of its ancestors. It is also ripping through the UK population at a fair rate - burnout will be in between 10 and 20 weeks at the 5% infected levels we have been seeing. Thankfully hospitalisations did not go as high as the experts predicted. The government did call that one right.
    (but that was just good luck)
    Your premise is misstated. You mean the omicron variant has a lower likelihood of death for each infected person. However, the higher infection rates more than make up for that increasing the death rate above the level prior to the rise of omicron.
    Hmmm... that could be an action movie, "The rise and fall of Omicron!"

    UK death rates from covid had dropped to less than 10 per day. It rose to around 100-150 from delta before rising to 250 per day for omicron. No, omicron is not less deadly than other variants.

    you never see anything as good news do you?, always impending doom, deaths rising or falling

    It's not about what I see. These are facts. Also, the point is the death rate in the US and UK are not falling in any appreciable way. This is exactly my point. People see the infection peak turning and think we've dealt with the problem. The
    reality is we've done nearly nothing and people are still dying at rates much higher than we have seen and would like to see.

    Most intelligent people can understand this. But there's always at least one who can't.

    --

    Rick C.

    +-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to gnuarm.del...@gmail.com on Sun Feb 6 16:04:09 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:58:14 PM UTC-8, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
    søndag den 6. februar 2022 kl. 19.28.17 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
    Omicron itself is more infectious but less deadly than any of its ancestors. It is also ripping through the UK population at a fair rate -
    burnout will be in between 10 and 20 weeks at the 5% infected levels we
    have been seeing. Thankfully hospitalisations did not go as high as the
    experts predicted. The government did call that one right.
    (but that was just good luck)
    Your premise is misstated. You mean the omicron variant has a lower likelihood of death for each infected person. However, the higher infection rates more than make up for that increasing the death rate above the level prior to the rise of omicron.
    Hmmm... that could be an action movie, "The rise and fall of Omicron!"

    UK death rates from covid had dropped to less than 10 per day. It rose to around 100-150 from delta before rising to 250 per day for omicron. No, omicron is not less deadly than other variants.

    you never see anything as good news do you?, always impending doom, deaths rising or falling
    It's not about what I see. These are facts. Also, the point is the death rate in the US and UK are not falling in any appreciable way. This is exactly my point. People see the infection peak turning and think we've dealt with the problem. The reality
    is we've done nearly nothing and people are still dying at rates much higher than we have seen and would like to see.

    I agree, and it's not Omicron, but ... (you know what i am going to say). Omicron dropped drastically last week. My guess is that the other one will pick back up in next week's data. We will see by Friday.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to DecadentLinux...@decadence.org on Sun Feb 6 19:49:11 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 7:33:14 PM UTC-8, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in news:6aadc4ef-823e-4667- 95a1-945f...@googlegroups.com:
    Omicron dropped drastically last week.
    Infections. NOT deaths.

    Taken out of context. Rick and I both know we are talking about cases dropping.

    Shame your mother didn't drop the flush handle the moment she shat you.

    Unnecessary emotional out-burst. You need to see a psychiatrist.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Mon Feb 7 03:33:03 2022
    Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in news:6aadc4ef-823e-4667- 95a1-945f523a289an@googlegroups.com:

    Omicron dropped drastically last week.

    Infections. NOT deaths.

    Shame your mother didn't drop the flush handle the moment she shat
    you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anthony William Sloman@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Sun Feb 6 20:16:07 2022
    On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 2:49:19 PM UTC+11, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 7:33:14 PM UTC-8, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in news:6aadc4ef-823e-4667- 95a1-945f...@googlegroups.com:
    Omicron dropped drastically last week.
    Infections. NOT deaths.
    Taken out of context. Rick and I both know we are talking about cases dropping.

    It's a remarkably unspecific reference.

    Shame your mother didn't drop the flush handle the moment she shat you.

    Unnecessary emotional out-burst. You need to see a psychiatrist.

    I doubt it. He might need help from a literary editor, but extravagant language has it's place. It is designed to have an effect on the reader, and there's nothing crazy about wanting to do that. Invoking a psychiatrist is exactly the same kind of over-
    the-top reaction, if less imaginative. You might look for a literary coach.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to bill....@ieee.org on Sun Feb 6 20:27:39 2022
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 8:16:15 PM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
    On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 2:49:19 PM UTC+11, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 7:33:14 PM UTC-8, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
    Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in news:6aadc4ef-823e-4667- 95a1-945f...@googlegroups.com:
    Omicron dropped drastically last week.
    Infections. NOT deaths.
    Taken out of context. Rick and I both know we are talking about cases dropping.
    It's a remarkably unspecific reference.

    You guys budge in without reading our previous discussions.

    To be specific. The heavy death toll is due to Xi, not Omicron. If Omicron winds down and Xi gets back up in ratio, the death toll will not change much. If ratio maintains the same with both going down, death rate will be lower. I can't see next week'
    s ratio yet, but judging from death rate. I predict that Omicron will go down in ratio and Xi will go up.

    [Samples/New Cases]_|_Xi_Class_B__Xi_Class_C__Omicron
    01: [30893/0670000] | 07%(045501) 92%(614241) 01%(0004077)
    02: [13434/0832000] | 03%(021676) 76%(637099) 16%(0132164)
    03: [15960/0860000] | 04%(037127) 52%(444495) 38%(0330206)
    04: [07619/1430000] | 02%(035285) 32%(457022) 59%(0848353)
    05: [06773/2800000] | 12%(339820) 19%(523786) 60%(1675535)
    06: [08068/5300000] | 03%(139923) 08%(434222) 85%(4526153)
    07: [10431/4132000] | 06%(230546) 17%(692430) 71%(2928170)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Mon Feb 7 06:53:32 2022
    Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in news:21383824-13b1-4fb9- b468-099368160548n@googlegroups.com:

    To be specific. The heavy death toll is due to Xi, not Omicron.

    Not in the US, dumbfuck!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Anthony William Sloman on Mon Feb 7 13:33:13 2022
    On 06/02/2022 13:35, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 10:03:27 PM UTC+11, Martin Brown
    wrote:
    On 05/02/2022 05:47, Rick C wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 4:38:37 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk
    wrote:
    tirsdag den 1. februar 2022 kl. 22.16.49 UTC+1 skrev Martin
    Brown:
    On 01/02/2022 19:39, Ed Lee wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-8, Martin
    Brown wrote:
    On 01/02/2022 15:40, Rick C wrote:

    <snip>

    What sort of idiot thinks the omicron variant is something we
    can ignore?

    Not exactly ignore but it appears to be something that we can now
    live with in the UK without the hospitals being overwhelmed. It
    remains to be seen how bad the AB.2 wave will become. UK now has no
    legal restrictions (which may be unwise but the government is in
    disarray).

    ONS statistics still show ~5% infection levels in the population
    and now decreasing slowly but it has been about that high for
    several weeks.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections



    The virus will run out of people to infect here before too much longer.

    It may run out of people that are really easy to infect sometime
    soon, but Omicron is perfectly capable of infecting the fully
    vaccinated and boosted, and can exploit them as carriers and as
    places to reproduce and produce new variants. The vaccinated - and
    the previously infected - are harder to infect, and don't stay
    infected for as long, but as a route to herd immunity, letting
    everybody get infected once isn't looking great (even ignoring the
    people who get really sick and occasionally die in the process).

    We have had cumulatively about 10% previously infected with an earlier
    strain and they are catching it again. ONS stats show we have had 5% of
    the UK population newly infected every week since Xmas that is already
    over 6 weeks so around 30% of the UK population have recently had Covid.

    That burn rate can only continue for another 14 weeks or so before it
    runs into the naturally acquired immunity buffers. It may end even
    sooner than that if the human challenge trials are to be believed.

    The latter seem to show that about half the population are much harder
    for the virus to infect (admittedly healthy fit young students and for
    the original wild strain and before there were any vaccines at all).

    If that is correct then we should see it decline quite rapidly in the UK
    from now on - provided that BA.2 isn't sufficiently different to go
    again. It is always hard to tell the trend at a weekend but I have to
    say at the moment it looks a lot more promising than I had expected.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk

    I'm surprised but it looks like for once the UK government got it right! Arguably they did nothing and just let matters take their course.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Rick C on Mon Feb 7 15:44:25 2022
    On 06/02/2022 18:28, Rick C wrote:
    On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
    Omicron itself is more infectious but less deadly than any of its
    ancestors. It is also ripping through the UK population at a fair
    rate - burnout will be in between 10 and 20 weeks at the 5%
    infected levels we have been seeing. Thankfully hospitalisations
    did not go as high as the experts predicted. The government did
    call that one right. (but that was just good luck)

    Your premise is misstated. You mean the omicron variant has a lower likelihood of death for each infected person. However, the higher

    It seems to be a bit less dangerous than the original wild strain even
    to the totally unvaccinated idiots that occupy most of the hospital beds
    now. It is less than half the lethality of Delta (which was 2x Alpha).

    infection rates more than make up for that increasing the death rate
    above the level prior to the rise of omicron. Hmmm... that could be
    an action movie, "The rise and fall of Omicron!"

    Omicron BA.1 will only fall if either BA.2 or some other even more
    infectious strain arises (which is possible in the UK right now) to
    displace it from being top dog.

    UK death rates from covid had dropped to less than 10 per day. It
    rose to around 100-150 from delta before rising to 250 per day for
    omicron. No, omicron is not less deadly than other variants.

    Omicron took the number of daily cases up past 200k for a while but
    infecting 5% of the population per week can only continue for so long
    and it looks like we may have just reached the limit where it does go
    down again because it has literally run out of people to infect.

    UK stats are not all that bad at the moment.

    Ridiculously high number of people with Covid last week 4.8% according
    to ONS but it isn't translating into deaths or hospital admissions. Both
    of those lagging indicators of the pandemic's effects are now going down
    (to my surprise). However, that is really what is happening in the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

    It helps that we do mostly have a well vaccinated population.

    Deaths per thousand cases has really plummeted from a year ago

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59970281


    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Lee@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 7 11:11:33 2022
    Omicron took the number of daily cases up past 200k for a while but
    infecting 5% of the population per week can only continue for so long
    and it looks like we may have just reached the limit where it does go
    down again because it has literally run out of people to infect.

    200k * 7 = 1.4m per week
    1.4m / 68m = 2%

    How do you get 5%?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Mon Feb 7 13:52:03 2022
    On 2/7/2022 1:24 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    They take 100k random samples of people across the country and find out just how many of them have the virus as opposed to those who show symptoms or have been in contact with a case and then go and get tested.

    For the most part, testing, here, is done by "self selection". So, only folks who:
    - think they may be infected
    - are paranoid about infection
    - want reassurance that they have NOT been infected
    will go and get tested. We have 3 sets of "home test kits" on the shelf (city gives them away) and have yet to pop one open -- as we are neither concerned that we *may* be infected nor worry of silently infecting someone else (e.g., visiting someone in a "care home").

    OTOH, having the kits on hand means we can change our minds about that
    at any time without having to find a kit "for sale" on a store shelf.

    If anything it is biassed low because anyone who thinks they might be positive
    and doesn't want to have to self isolate will not participate. It is voluntary.
    I have been random sampled twice so far. They like people who can return a good
    sample. I reckon they would get a lot more valid ones back if they provided two
    swabs in the kit.

    Incidence of Covid infection in the UK population is much higher than overall detections and at least 2x the symptomatic Covid cases.

    Many folks find out they are covid positive after visiting a hospital (for
    some unrelated reason). I think it is now a matter of common practice that
    all folks are tested prior to treatment.

    [The Cynic in me wonders if this isn't as much a financial reason as hospitals may receive extra compensation for covid cases -- even if they don't present
    as such]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Ed Lee on Mon Feb 7 20:24:21 2022
    On 07/02/2022 19:11, Ed Lee wrote:
    Omicron took the number of daily cases up past 200k for a while but
    infecting 5% of the population per week can only continue for so long
    and it looks like we may have just reached the limit where it does go
    down again because it has literally run out of people to infect.

    200k * 7 = 1.4m per week
    1.4m / 68m = 2%

    How do you get 5%?

    There are a very high proportion of people with ambiguous symptoms or absolutely no symptoms at all who don't go and get a test.

    From the IPSOS MORI REACT PCR survey of the population. UK ONS stats:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections


    That is for the most recent week ending 29/1
    -- begin verbatim quote --

    In the week ending 29 January 2022, COVID-19 positivity rates remained
    high in England, increased in Wales and Northern Ireland and the trend
    was uncertain in Scotland. The estimated percentage of the community
    population that had COVID-19 in the latest week was:

    4.83% in England (1 in 20 people)

    4.57% in Wales (1 in 20 people)

    7.43% in Northern Ireland (1 in 15 people)

    3.52% in Scotland (1 in 30 people)

    --end verbatim--

    BTW I make
    4.83% 1:21
    4.57% 1:22
    7.43% 1:13
    3.52% 1:28

    I doubt if the numbers are even good to 2 sig fig so rounding to the
    nearest 5 seems reasonable. Quoting percentages with 3 sig fig is NOT!

    They take 100k random samples of people across the country and find out
    just how many of them have the virus as opposed to those who show
    symptoms or have been in contact with a case and then go and get tested.

    If anything it is biassed low because anyone who thinks they might be
    positive and doesn't want to have to self isolate will not participate.
    It is voluntary. I have been random sampled twice so far. They like
    people who can return a good sample. I reckon they would get a lot more
    valid ones back if they provided two swabs in the kit.

    Incidence of Covid infection in the UK population is much higher than
    overall detections and at least 2x the symptomatic Covid cases.

    --
    Regards,
    Martin Brown

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  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 7 14:14:59 2022
    mandag den 7. februar 2022 kl. 21.52.21 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
    ..
    Many folks find out they are covid positive after visiting a hospital (for some unrelated reason). I think it is now a matter of common practice that all folks are tested prior to treatment.

    [The Cynic in me wonders if this isn't as much a financial reason as hospitals
    may receive extra compensation for covid cases -- even if they don't present as such]

    not everyone has for profit hospitals and they also do it. Common sense really, they want to know if they need to take precautions to try and avoid spreading it inside the hospital

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