• "Hollow" screw

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 25 23:24:34 2022
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jan 25 22:51:22 2022
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 2:24:58 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    What exactly is the thread you need? I don't understand why you think you can't find 1/4 inch threaded pipe. That is what they use in lamps, it is very common. Now if your thread is something very oddball, I expect you can still find it if you look
    around a bit. Certainly any machine shop can make that for you if they have the die.

    Is there some reason why you didn't provide the thread you need? That would seem to define the task more than anything else other than possibly the length. So what thread and what length?

    If you can find a brass screw in the thread you need, why do you think you would not be able to find a threaded tube?

    --

    Rick C.

    - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 07:10:00 2022
    On 2022-01-26, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    braze or solder a nut onto a threaded tube.

    OTOH parts like this are used in lighting, mechanical, and plumbing applications, perhaps you can get what you want off the shelf.



    --
    Jasen.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Wed Jan 26 01:07:05 2022
    On 1/26/2022 12:10 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-01-26, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    braze or solder a nut onto a threaded tube.

    It's finding the threaded tube (of the right ID/OD) that is
    the challenge.

    OTOH parts like this are used in lighting, mechanical, and plumbing applications, perhaps you can get what you want off the shelf.

    The first thought was that of lamp rod. But, while claiming to be a
    nominal "1/8 inch" diameter, the actual dimensions across the threads
    are ~3/8". Far too fat for my needs.

    <https://www.amazon.com/Lamp-All-Thread-Pipe-Steel/dp/B008UWATVK>

    If you move to nipples (neglecting the fact that pipe threads are tapered
    so even a close nipple isn't truly "square"), then you are faced with
    a similar problem; nominal pipe (and, thus, nipple) dimensions understate
    the actual diameter. E.g., a 1/8" NPS pipe is *over* 3/8" OD (0.405")

    If you approach it the other way -- taking a "pipe" and threading it
    manually, then the thickness of the material comes into play. E.g.,
    a 1/4-20 bolt has a thread depth of ~0.036". So, the pipe wall would
    have to exceed this sufficiently (another nebulous term) to retain
    its strength. (a man can exert a fair bit of torque on a fastener;
    ever notice screwdrivers with twisted blades? Or, small (#0 or #1)
    Phillips screwdrivers with missing tips?)

    If the pipe wall is too thin, then you are driven to using a finer
    thread pitch. And, risking a sloppy fit or damaged threads, in use.
    (as well as complicating its manufacture)

    [I found some 6mm hard copper pipe but the wall thickness (0.6 - 0.9mm)
    leaves me wondering if I can get a coarse enough thread pitch without
    turning the pipe into "spiral cut ham"!]

    Lamp rod would be fine if the OD was closer to 1/4 - 5/16". Which
    would probably also increase the thread pitch as the pipe wall
    would undoubtedly get thinner (if not, then the ID suffers).

    If I start with something like a 5/16 bolt, I can probably get
    enough of an ID with careful machining -- if the material is
    *soft* (stainless would likely be problematic and need cutting
    oil/coolant). A 1/4-20 bolt is the ideal OD but I don't think
    it could be hollowed to yield a sufficiently large ID without
    sacrificing the strength of the bolt. The 3/8" lamp rod is just
    too fat to justify the ID it affords.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Jasen Betts on Wed Jan 26 07:13:47 2022
    On 2022-01-26, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
    On 2022-01-26, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    braze or solder a nut onto a threaded tube.

    OTOH parts like this are used in lighting, mechanical, and plumbing applications, perhaps you can get what you want off the shelf.


    also bicycles.


    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mikko OH2HVJ@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 10:44:26 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    Drill a hole to the screw ? If you don't have a lathe, you can do this
    with a drill press by fixing the screw to the chuck and having the drill
    bit stationary. Drill a starting hole with larger drill and through with
    a smaller one(s).

    Brass is easier to work with, but suitable drills work fine with steel,
    too.

    --
    mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 09:08:22 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in news:ssqpff$d5v$1@dont-
    email.me:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?


    The closest you will likely get is lamp parts. Threaded rod is hard
    steel and not easily drilled, though I am sure there are items out
    there somewhere. And I am sure that a short length is doable.
    Seems like they could take thick wall piping and roll thread it for
    this. Anyway I found this...

    <https://www.antiquelampsupply.com/lamp-parts/lamp-arms-arm-backs- husks/18-20-24-all-thread-pipe.html>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Rick C on Wed Jan 26 09:09:38 2022
    Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:13d6d973-5f30-4841-ae0e-924655589b92n@googlegroups.com:

    What exactly is the thread you need? I don't understand why you
    think you can't find 1/4 inch threaded pipe. That is what they
    use in lamps, it is very common.

    Nope. Lamps do use threaded pipe, but not that size.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Jones@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 21:04:50 2022
    On 26/01/2022 19:07, Don Y wrote:

    If I start with something like a 5/16 bolt, I can probably get
    enough of an ID with careful machining -- if the material is
    *soft* (stainless would likely be problematic and need cutting
    oil/coolant).

    I have drilled holes through stainless steel hex-socket-head cap-screws
    (in my case 1.6mm holes through 4mm screws), with no particular
    difficulty up to 20mm depth or so.

    You should use a lathe, and cutting oil on the drill. Someone with a
    lathe could do it for you and it is an easy operation unless you want
    the hole to be much more than 10 times as deep as its diameter.

    If you are bothered about the remaining wall thickness then you should
    look into obtaining bolts with a different thread. If the part you want
    to obtain is geometrically impossible, no amount of advice on
    manufacturing techniques will help. At least if you drill out a steel or stainless steel bolt, it will be about as strong as is possible for the
    given geometry, and with the right grade of steel bolt there remains the
    option of case-hardening and/or heat-treating it if you need a bit more strength.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 26 02:48:10 2022
    On 1/26/2022 1:44 AM, Mikko OH2HVJ wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    Drill a hole to the screw ? If you don't have a lathe, you can do this
    with a drill press by fixing the screw to the chuck and having the drill
    bit stationary. Drill a starting hole with larger drill and through with
    a smaller one(s).

    ?

    Why wouldn't I thread the screw into a tapped block (to support and
    reinforce the threads -- as well as act as a heat sink) -- after coating
    it with antiseize (as the drill bit's rotation will tend to want
    to tighten the screw in the block, possibly making removal more
    difficult)?

    And, I'd assume move from smaller diameter bits up through larger ones
    to minimize the amount of material being removed with each.

    This has the added advantage of giving me prototypes with increasing
    IDs that I can torque test (i.e., at what point have I removed
    TOO MUCH material and lost strength?). Trying to do this with
    ever smaller IDs means having to make (and destroy!) multiple screws
    to test (until you find one "strong enough").

    Brass is easier to work with, but suitable drills work fine with steel,
    too.

    (polished) Brass will "look pretty" -- enough to deflect attention from
    the fact that it's not, e.g., stainless. (Plastic/nylon/aluminum would
    all look "cheap" -- "presentation" is a big part of the issue!)

    Two colleagues (email) have independently pointed out that the threads
    are the problem. They are essential to providing "fastening" for a
    screw. But, add to the OD by their very nature.

    It was suggested to use fasteners with "flexible" threads -- like the
    "blind" fasteners used to hold door panels to a car's door frame:

    <https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/RNB-45680_OB_xl.jpg>

    Here, the fastening mechanism (the "threads" -- though NOT "spiral"!) are deformed as the fastener is inserted, reducing the actual diameter
    of the fastener as it is inserted. But, return to their uncompressed
    state once installed. I'll have to buy some to see just how much of
    a "diameter savings" this affords.

    But, it inspired me to think of yet another option; move the "threads" (fastening mechanism) to the mating piece where it doesn't impact the
    OD of the "fastener"! Spring clips!

    <https://www.veckfasteners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/S32.jpg>

    So, the "screw" can just be a "tube-with-a-head". The wall thickness
    not having to accommodate the intrusion of any cut threads! The spring
    clip can be stationary and the "post" driven into it's embrace.

    The (big) downside to this approach is it makes disassembly difficult
    (without damaging the item or marring its appearance). OTOH, assembly
    is a breeze! :-/

    There's got to be something similar that is also disassemble-able...
    maybe a *square* (hex?) peg into a 4-pronged (3 or 6?) clip? Insert
    with the flats aligned with the clip's prongs, then twist to engage
    the vertices on the prongs??

    [I gotta call glen or skip...]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 10:35:56 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 12:10 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-01-26, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    braze or solder a nut onto a threaded tube.

    It's finding the threaded tube (of the right ID/OD) that is
    the challenge.

    OTOH parts like this are used in lighting, mechanical, and plumbing
    applications, perhaps you can get what you want off the shelf.

    The first thought was that of lamp rod. But, while claiming to be a
    nominal "1/8 inch" diameter, the actual dimensions across the threads
    are ~3/8". Far too fat for my needs.

    <https://www.amazon.com/Lamp-All-Thread-Pipe-Steel/dp/B008UWATVK>

    Yeah, that's because that "1/8 IP" is an "Iron Pipe" (or I think
    nowadays "International Pipe") dimension that defined the nominal inner diameter, not the outer. Note that a quick google indicates the actual
    ID is over a 1/4" on the rod you linked (way to go, 19th century naming conventions!)

    https://www.sizes.com/materials/pipe_Briggs.htm

    As far as I am aware, all pipe is still sold based on the (nominal)
    inner diameter, not the outer. Least this remnant of "half inch" copper
    pipe I have to hand is 0.625 (5/8) OD...



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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Wed Jan 26 05:10:50 2022
    On 1/26/2022 3:35 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 12:10 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-01-26, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    braze or solder a nut onto a threaded tube.

    It's finding the threaded tube (of the right ID/OD) that is
    the challenge.

    OTOH parts like this are used in lighting, mechanical, and plumbing
    applications, perhaps you can get what you want off the shelf.

    The first thought was that of lamp rod. But, while claiming to be a
    nominal "1/8 inch" diameter, the actual dimensions across the threads
    are ~3/8". Far too fat for my needs.

    <https://www.amazon.com/Lamp-All-Thread-Pipe-Steel/dp/B008UWATVK>

    Yeah, that's because that "1/8 IP" is an "Iron Pipe" (or I think
    nowadays "International Pipe") dimension that defined the nominal inner diameter, not the outer. Note that a quick google indicates the actual
    ID is over a 1/4" on the rod you linked (way to go, 19th century naming conventions!)

    Exactly.

    Ever notice how *pots* (as in "flora") are sized? Or, other "dry measures"?

    https://www.sizes.com/materials/pipe_Briggs.htm

    As far as I am aware, all pipe is still sold based on the (nominal)
    inner diameter, not the outer. Least this remnant of "half inch" copper
    pipe I have to hand is 0.625 (5/8) OD...

    But the outer diameter is the *controlled* dimension! The inner diameter
    is a consequence of the pipe schedule. So, all "1/8" pipe has the same OD (0.405) but differing IDs depending on wall thickness -- 0.035 to 0.095,
    in this case... a pretty big range! In my case, I'd prefer the OD to
    shrink based on schedule and hold ID constant.

    E.g., if the ID was *actually* 0.125 and I could use the thinnest wall
    pipe, I'd be in the 0.195 range for OD... Up to 0.315 with the thickest
    (which would be a tolerable ~5/16" instead of a fat ~3/8+)

    Or, specify the size based on the OD and let the ID vary.

    The current scheme is the worst of all worlds...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Jan 26 08:41:14 2022
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Look at bicycle caliper brake adjustment hardware.

    Thread OD typically 0.225in - possibly an M5 or M6 thread.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Jan 26 09:00:20 2022
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    Some 'Presta' inner tube stems also finish with hex head on the
    molded portion.

    .0.230in OD - possibly in plated brass.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 14:47:39 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 3:35 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    As far as I am aware, all pipe is still sold based on the (nominal)
    inner diameter, not the outer. Least this remnant of "half inch" copper
    pipe I have to hand is 0.625 (5/8) OD...

    But the outer diameter is the *controlled* dimension! The inner diameter
    is a consequence of the pipe schedule. So, all "1/8" pipe has the same OD (0.405) but differing IDs depending on wall thickness -- 0.035 to 0.095,
    in this case... a pretty big range! In my case, I'd prefer the OD to
    shrink based on schedule and hold ID constant.

    Yeah, I'm just good enough with pipes to know "I need $size ID", and not
    really follow specifics past price at that point -- at least here, the
    thin copper ("Type M"?) is allowed in residential plumbing, so it's
    somewhat my go-to for repairs / rework.

    Although I do prefer the Type L in the kitchen and bathroom walls
    (they're exterior walls, so the thicker pipe makes me feel better, even
    if it is daft).


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    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

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  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 14:29:29 2022
    On 26/01/2022 06:24, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length.  The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    <snip>

    'Hollow screw' is a good search term.

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 10:37:59 2022
    Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length.  The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple).  But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?).  (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    You could always just cut a slot in the screw with a Dremel.

    If you need something better than that, you can get "vented screws" from Mcmaster Carr.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Wond@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 16:08:20 2022
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as large as feasible
    without significantly reducing the strength to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT a pipe
    nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that range seems
    difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting the
    threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the layers are?).
    (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from a COTS
    screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    . You can buy a blister pak of screws made to hang things on drywall;
    they're white plastic, about 5/16" diameter, 2"long, flat head, sharp point,very coarse thread. Maybe you could drill 'em.

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  • From Dimiter_Popoff@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 18:48:23 2022
    On 1/26/2022 8:24, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length.  The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple).  But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?).  (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    How long do you need it to be? If within reason (< say 50mm)
    and if you were living in the neighbourhood I could have made it
    for you... Well not 1/4", M6 but I suppose you'll live with that.
    A 4mm hole would be OK I think. I have some supply of 8mm brass...

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  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 26 08:41:36 2022
    onsdag den 26. januar 2022 kl. 10.48.31 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
    On 1/26/2022 1:44 AM, Mikko OH2HVJ wrote:
    Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> writes:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    Drill a hole to the screw ? If you don't have a lathe, you can do this
    with a drill press by fixing the screw to the chuck and having the drill bit stationary. Drill a starting hole with larger drill and through with
    a smaller one(s).
    ?

    Why wouldn't I thread the screw into a tapped block (to support and
    reinforce the threads -- as well as act as a heat sink) -- after coating
    it with antiseize (as the drill bit's rotation will tend to want
    to tighten the screw in the block, possibly making removal more
    difficult)?

    because it is much easier to keep the drill centered by spinning the part instead of the drill, try it ..

    https://youtu.be/v5yx1C-maRo

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  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Jan 26 12:15:29 2022
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Many. But you need to define what you are trying to accomplish here,
    versus all the things that didn't work, or useful answers may be rare.
    What metals are allowed or required?

    The quickest solution may be to use a metalworking lathe to make the
    needed bit. Unless the following works:

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/threaded-tubes/hollow-threaded-studs/>

    Joe Gwinn

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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Wed Jan 26 12:28:50 2022
    Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> Wrote in message:r
    Don Y wrote:> I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole> drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as> large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength> to unusable (nebulous term) levels.> > I realize I
    will eventually have to contract a casting or machined> parts.> > But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.> > I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT> a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in
    that> range seems difficult.> > I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of> suitable ID/OD.> > Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting> the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the> layers are?). (I
    think most *plastics* would be too brittle> when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in> metal)> > I also thought of physically removing the core material from> a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).> > Any other
    options?You could always just cut a slot in the screw with a Dremel.If you need something better than that, you can get "vented screws" from Mcmaster Carr.CheersPhil Hobbs-- Dr Philip C D HobbsPrincipal ConsultantElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs
    ElectroOpticsOptics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog ElectronicsBriarcliff Manor NY 10510http://electrooptical.nethttp://hobbs-eo.com

    +1
    Lots of options there...

    https://www.mcmaster.com/vented-screws/
    --


    ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

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  • From Rick C@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Wed Jan 26 12:05:04 2022
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 1:15:41 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    Many. But you need to define what you are trying to accomplish here,
    versus all the things that didn't work, or useful answers may be rare.
    What metals are allowed or required?

    Yeah, good luck on getting that sort of info. This is sed where people start vague and continue that way.

    --

    Rick C.

    + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
    + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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  • From DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadenc@21:1/5 to Clive Arthur on Wed Jan 26 20:03:32 2022
    Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote in news:ssrlsb$4kq$1@dont- email.me:

    On 26/01/2022 06:24, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length.  The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    <snip>

    'Hollow screw' is a good search term.


    'Hollow threaded rod' is what I hunted under.

    A thick walled pipe seems to be the right way to go.
    Find a machine shop that can roll the threads instead of cutting them.

    One could also thread one end and the other end only in the areas
    needing threads.

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  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 26 12:23:52 2022
    onsdag den 26. januar 2022 kl. 21.05.07 UTC+1 skrev gnuarm.del...@gmail.com:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 1:15:41 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    Many. But you need to define what you are trying to accomplish here,
    versus all the things that didn't work, or useful answers may be rare.
    What metals are allowed or required?
    Yeah, good luck on getting that sort of info. This is sed where people start vague and continue that way.

    seems a recurring pattern with Dons threads, he asks for something and every suggesting gets dismissed
    with a wall of text with more and more obscure additional requirements and reasons why it won't work

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  • From DemonicTubes@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 13:51:08 2022
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:11:10 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 3:35 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 12:10 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
    On 2022-01-26, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    braze or solder a nut onto a threaded tube.

    It's finding the threaded tube (of the right ID/OD) that is
    the challenge.

    OTOH parts like this are used in lighting, mechanical, and plumbing
    applications, perhaps you can get what you want off the shelf.

    The first thought was that of lamp rod. But, while claiming to be a
    nominal "1/8 inch" diameter, the actual dimensions across the threads
    are ~3/8". Far too fat for my needs.

    <https://www.amazon.com/Lamp-All-Thread-Pipe-Steel/dp/B008UWATVK>

    Yeah, that's because that "1/8 IP" is an "Iron Pipe" (or I think
    nowadays "International Pipe") dimension that defined the nominal inner diameter, not the outer. Note that a quick google indicates the actual
    ID is over a 1/4" on the rod you linked (way to go, 19th century naming conventions!)
    Exactly.

    Ever notice how *pots* (as in "flora") are sized? Or, other "dry measures"?
    https://www.sizes.com/materials/pipe_Briggs.htm

    As far as I am aware, all pipe is still sold based on the (nominal)
    inner diameter, not the outer. Least this remnant of "half inch" copper pipe I have to hand is 0.625 (5/8) OD...
    But the outer diameter is the *controlled* dimension! The inner diameter
    is a consequence of the pipe schedule. So, all "1/8" pipe has the same OD (0.405) but differing IDs depending on wall thickness -- 0.035 to 0.095,
    in this case... a pretty big range! In my case, I'd prefer the OD to
    shrink based on schedule and hold ID constant.

    E.g., if the ID was *actually* 0.125 and I could use the thinnest wall
    pipe, I'd be in the 0.195 range for OD... Up to 0.315 with the thickest (which would be a tolerable ~5/16" instead of a fat ~3/8+)

    Or, specify the size based on the OD and let the ID vary.

    The current scheme is the worst of all worlds...

    Would 1/4-28 (or even M6) tubing nuts work? I use them at work, they are hollow.

    Examples: https://kinesis-usa.com/gripper-fitting-nuts-1-16-od-tubing-1-4-28-flat-bottom-blue-002106.html

    https://www.coleparmer.com/p/idex-super-flangeless-nuts-1-4-28-flat-bottom-for-1-32-or-1-16-od-tubing/72807

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Wed Jan 26 15:50:11 2022
    On 1/26/2022 7:47 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 3:35 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    [...]
    As far as I am aware, all pipe is still sold based on the (nominal)
    inner diameter, not the outer. Least this remnant of "half inch" copper >>> pipe I have to hand is 0.625 (5/8) OD...

    But the outer diameter is the *controlled* dimension! The inner diameter
    is a consequence of the pipe schedule. So, all "1/8" pipe has the same OD >> (0.405) but differing IDs depending on wall thickness -- 0.035 to 0.095,
    in this case... a pretty big range! In my case, I'd prefer the OD to
    shrink based on schedule and hold ID constant.

    Yeah, I'm just good enough with pipes to know "I need $size ID", and not

    And, with pipe, you tend to be wanting to "fit" with existing pipe/fittings
    so your choices are inherently constrained.

    really follow specifics past price at that point -- at least here, the
    thin copper ("Type M"?) is allowed in residential plumbing, so it's
    somewhat my go-to for repairs / rework.

    Although I do prefer the Type L in the kitchen and bathroom walls
    (they're exterior walls, so the thicker pipe makes me feel better, even
    if it is daft).

    We use K & L, here. The hard water "eats" pipe (lots of pinholes).
    So, spend the time/money up front instead of having to do it over,
    later.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 26 16:22:08 2022
    On 1/26/2022 9:48 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:24, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    How long do you need it to be? If within reason (< say 50mm)
    and if you were living in the neighbourhood I could have made it
    for you... Well not 1/4", M6 but I suppose you'll live with that.
    A 4mm hole would be OK I think. I have some supply of 8mm brass...

    None of my neighbors have a lathe -- too many "professionals"
    who pay folks to do things instead of doing for themselves
    (no one works on their own cars, does their own plumbing/electrical,
    maintains their own yard, etc. If it snowed, here, they'd hire
    folks to clear their driveways!)

    I can use a lathe at the local maker house. But, that's half a day
    of my time -- long drive into town, getting time on a lathe, checking
    work (so I don't have to make a return trip) then back home. And,
    covid has frequently shut them down, so...

    [Hence the appeal of using a drill press; I can get to one of those in
    short order! And, I could *test* (strength) different hole diameters
    (wall thicknesses) to see where the integrity of the fastener starts
    to suffer, incrementally and interactively. That flexibility isn't
    likely available in a COTS solution: "Can I get this with a slightly
    larger hole diameter?"]

    I chatted with an ME friend, today. His first comment was to ask how
    I was going to do this in production -- how much I was willing to pay (time/labor) for the functionality that this provides.

    "Oh."

    "A screw is a stupid idea. Too pedestrian! Too many manufacturing
    steps -- for the screw itself and your use of it!"

    Then, took me back through a discussion we'd had years ago
    when I'd shown him some prototypes of hand tools I'd designed
    and the resulting *manufactured* products... how my "made in
    basement" approaches had been translated into "making hundreds
    per hour". (it's been a long time since I've been in a factory!)

    Kinda like showing someone "outside the industry" stencil-and-paste
    who'd always thought in terms of "soldering irons". It's not
    just a matter of time/labor saving but also a different set
    of possibilities!

    So, I'm revisiting the mechanical design with an eye towards
    driving the manufacturing costs to zero (consumer quantities
    so I don't have much margin to waste). And, seeing what other
    functionality I can add at the same time! :>

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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 17:16:56 2022
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:24:58 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length...
    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.


    If it takes real strength, you'll want to center a mass-produced steel item for end-on facing, spotting, and drilling;
    a mill or lathe would be the best tool for that. Machine screws are usually rolled thread nowadays, that's
    an operation that isn't compatible with hole-in-the-middle tube. Allthread rod is standard and cheap, allthread tube
    is not.

    Can you substitute a rivet with a hole in the middle? Those can be formed from tube in a variety of sizes
    and materials...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 26 20:00:42 2022
    On 1/26/2022 6:16 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:24:58 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole drilled
    longitudinally throughout its length... I thought I could approximate it
    using a threaded tube (NOT a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded
    tubing in that range seems difficult.

    If it takes real strength, you'll want to center a mass-produced steel item for end-on facing, spotting, and drilling; a mill or lathe would be the
    best tool for that. Machine screws are usually rolled thread nowadays, that's an operation that isn't compatible with hole-in-the-middle tube. Allthread rod is standard and cheap, allthread tube is not.

    Screws "invite" twisting. So, in addition to tensile strength, you
    have to worry about deformation from twisting.

    And, even if you use "security" hardware, the user will sense that
    this is the "fastener of interest" for his attentions.

    Can you substitute a rivet with a hole in the middle? Those can be formed from tube in a variety of sizes and materials...

    Yeah, that was my thought (elsewhere, this thread, in the context of "spring clips"). The threads increase the diameter just to provide the fastening ability. If, instead, you can use a smooth outer surface, then you can opt for a smaller overall diameter *or* a larger internal bore.

    Hollow rivets are COTS in a variety of sizes/lengths. And, tend to *discourage* attempts at disassembly (short of drilling them out...
    but, someone undertaking such an action knows that they are destroying
    the product, not just "taking it apart -- for later reassembly!")

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it. This then makes disassembly difficult when you
    *want* to disassemble the item!

    I ran the question by a friend, earlier today. He's promised to drop
    some photocopies (of fastener options) in the mail to me (yeah, he's
    real "old school"). Meanwhile, he's got me started rethinking all of
    those assumptions (why a screw? why round? why a round hole? why
    *centered*? why...) esp those that I've self-imposed by trying to DIY
    a prototype!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 26 19:54:09 2022
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 6:16 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:24:58 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole drilled
    longitudinally throughout its length...

    Can you substitute a rivet with a hole in the middle? Those can be formed from tube in a variety of sizes and materials...

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it. This then makes disassembly difficult when you
    *want* to disassemble the item!

    Howabout drive rivets? The drive pin in the head expands the rivet's nether region, but could also be driven through and leave a hole, or with an overlength pin,
    could be driven and retracted... or even drive a hollow pin (perhaps with
    a driver that fills the hollow, for strength).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 00:46:57 2022
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 6:16 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:24:58 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole drilled
    longitudinally throughout its length...

    Can you substitute a rivet with a hole in the middle? Those can be formed >>> from tube in a variety of sizes and materials...

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it. This then makes disassembly difficult when you
    *want* to disassemble the item!

    Howabout drive rivets?

    "Pop" rivets?

    The drive pin in the head expands the rivet's nether
    region, but could also be driven through and leave a hole, or with an overlength pin,
    could be driven and retracted... or even drive a hollow pin (perhaps with
    a driver that fills the hollow, for strength).

    I think the tool is intentionally designed to snap the drive pin off below the lip of the rivet, regardless of how long the pin *was*. I'm not
    sure if interposing a mechanical spacer between the tool and the lip of
    the rivet would result in the break point moving to remain close to the tool... or the rivet's lip!

    Driving the broken off part of the pin further in (to clear the hole)
    isn't always possible; there's "stuff" on the other side with which it
    would interfere.

    But, "bare" rivets -- chosen for length and secured "otherwise" may
    work.

    There are similar shaped COTS pieces that might also show promise

    <https://www.placediverter.com/wp-content/uploads/place_diverter_compression_fittings-1a.jpg>
    save for length (I'm trying to see how much shorter I can make
    these with a packaging rethink)

    The key revelation is not to think in terms of "screws" as
    that constrains your solution space unnecessarily!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jan 27 00:21:24 2022
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:47:20 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it.

    How about drive rivets?
    "Pop" rivets?

    No, not the apply-tension type, the apply-percussion type, that uses
    a pin protruding from the head that is struck with a hammer...

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/rivets/rivet-type~pin-drive/>

    The drive pin in the head expands the rivet's nether
    region, but could also be driven through and leave a hole, or with an overlength pin,
    could be driven and retracted... or even drive a hollow pin (perhaps with
    a driver that fills the hollow, for strength).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Clive Arthur on Thu Jan 27 02:49:19 2022
    On 1/26/2022 7:29 AM, Clive Arthur wrote:
    On 26/01/2022 06:24, Don Y wrote:
    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    <snip>

    'Hollow screw' is a good search term.

    Ha! Who'd'a guessed?!

    Thankfully, I didn't find this before discovering other options
    else I would likely have "settled" for what appears to be a more
    expensive option.

    But, some of the offerings seem like they'd be handy to have
    on-hand just to compare to other approaches. All of the
    ebay hits seem 404. But, alibaba shows promise.

    Thanks!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 02:46:40 2022
    On 1/27/2022 1:21 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:47:20 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it.

    How about drive rivets?
    "Pop" rivets?

    No, not the apply-tension type, the apply-percussion type, that uses
    a pin protruding from the head that is struck with a hammer...

    But, presumably, the force required wouldn't *require* a hammer
    as the pin's motion is deforming the rivet in a manner simmilar to
    the "early tugs" on a pop rivet. The final -- higher force -- tug
    on the pop rivet is solely to snap the pin; the rivet has already
    been deformed (i.e., the pin could be left in place without affecting
    the quality of the fastening).

    Or, are the rivets made of tougher stuff that requires more force
    (e.g., hammer-struck)?

    I'm off to hardware store, today, for some spray paint. I will see if
    they have anything that I can evaluate.

    Thanks!

    <https://www.mcmaster.com/rivets/rivet-type~pin-drive/>

    The drive pin in the head expands the rivet's nether
    region, but could also be driven through and leave a hole, or with an overlength pin,
    could be driven and retracted... or even drive a hollow pin (perhaps with >>> a driver that fills the hollow, for strength).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jan 27 11:36:45 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/27/2022 1:21 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:47:20 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it.

    How about drive rivets?
    "Pop" rivets?

    No, not the apply-tension type, the apply-percussion type, that uses
    a pin protruding from the head that is struck with a hammer...

    But, presumably, the force required wouldn't *require* a hammer

    Yes, the "apply percussion" type of rivets require a hammer (and usually
    a form tool), and cannot be used in blind holes.

    Industrial[1] options are basically an unthreaded bolt which you stick
    through your piece. Then back the bolt with an anvil, and form the
    other end with a hammer (and likely a form tool).

    This is opposite to pop-rivets that we'd pick up from a hardware store
    where basically you have a pin with a sleeve around it. As you yank on
    the pin, you deform the sleeve.

    A simple (if labor intensive) approach for use around the home is tubes
    of whatever metal you please (aluminum, brass, copper, steel, whatever),
    a good sized bit of square steel, and a ball-peen hammer. (plus
    ancillary tools to hold / cut the long tube)

    - flare the end of the tube slightly with a few hits from the hammer
    (use the peen end ;) )
    - cut the tube to sufficient length to fully pass through the parts
    to be joined, plus 0.062" to 0.125" (1/16 to 1/8)
    - stick tube through hole, with the initially flared end to the back
    (or less-accessible side), and hold it tight with your steel block
    - flare the front side (again, use the peen end)


    [1]Well, at least when "industry" used rivets. These days, welding is
    probably their goto. Loads of pictures available on the internet of steelworkers riveting buildings or ships or trains, etc.

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    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Thu Jan 27 06:29:31 2022
    On 1/26/2022 6:41 AM, legg wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Look at bicycle caliper brake adjustment hardware.

    Thread OD typically 0.225in - possibly an M5 or M6 thread.

    That's an idea! I've not owned a bike in years so can't recall
    the details but I do recall their presence by the brake levers
    (effectively altering the ratio of inner cable to outer sheath)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Thu Jan 27 06:27:27 2022
    On 1/27/2022 4:36 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/27/2022 1:21 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:47:20 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to >>>>>> grab it/bite into it.

    How about drive rivets?
    "Pop" rivets?

    No, not the apply-tension type, the apply-percussion type, that uses
    a pin protruding from the head that is struck with a hammer...

    But, presumably, the force required wouldn't *require* a hammer

    Yes, the "apply percussion" type of rivets require a hammer (and usually
    a form tool), and cannot be used in blind holes.

    The cited rivets appear to be "pop rivets in reverse". I.e., there is
    a rod protruding from the *top* (formed) side of the rivet. As this
    is pressed into the rivet body, the walls of the rivet are forced outward
    in a manner similar (but different) to how the rod being *pulled* from
    a pop rivet deforms THOSE walls.

    Contrast with a "regular" rivet that requires a swage to form the
    yet-unformed end of the rivet.

    So, pressing (with sufficient force) on that pin will achieve the
    same result as wacking it with a hammer. The question is: how
    much force is required (cuz you are indirectly transferring that
    force to the item into which the rivet is being installed!)

    Drive rivet: <https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-c7chaa/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/719/1859/drive_rivet__63707.1517517434.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on>
    note the "split end", at right, that is inserted into the hole.
    The protruding rod remains *inside* the rivet after fastening.

    Pop rivet: <https://parts.pjtrailers.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1200x1200/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/8/180500b.jpg>
    note the wide end, at left, that is drawn into the narrow body of the rivet. The protruding rod is snapped off in the forming of the joint.

    Rivet:
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet#/media/File:Rivet01.jpg>
    note the absence of any "protruding rod/movable member" within the
    rivet's body; the end must be peened over to bind.

    All of these leave you with an effectively "solid" rivet -- in that
    there is no clear path through the rivet's body without some additional
    labor step.

    Industrial[1] options are basically an unthreaded bolt which you stick through your piece. Then back the bolt with an anvil, and form the
    other end with a hammer (and likely a form tool).

    This is opposite to pop-rivets that we'd pick up from a hardware store
    where basically you have a pin with a sleeve around it. As you yank on
    the pin, you deform the sleeve.

    A simple (if labor intensive) approach for use around the home is tubes
    of whatever metal you please (aluminum, brass, copper, steel, whatever),
    a good sized bit of square steel, and a ball-peen hammer. (plus
    ancillary tools to hold / cut the long tube)

    - flare the end of the tube slightly with a few hits from the hammer
    (use the peen end ;) )
    - cut the tube to sufficient length to fully pass through the parts
    to be joined, plus 0.062" to 0.125" (1/16 to 1/8)
    - stick tube through hole, with the initially flared end to the back
    (or less-accessible side), and hold it tight with your steel block
    - flare the front side (again, use the peen end)

    [1]Well, at least when "industry" used rivets. These days, welding is probably their goto. Loads of pictures available on the internet of steelworkers riveting buildings or ships or trains, etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 06:35:00 2022
    torsdag den 27. januar 2022 kl. 14.27.49 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
    On 1/27/2022 4:36 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Don Y wrote:
    On 1/27/2022 1:21 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:47:20 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to >>>>>> grab it/bite into it.

    How about drive rivets?
    "Pop" rivets?

    No, not the apply-tension type, the apply-percussion type, that uses
    a pin protruding from the head that is struck with a hammer...

    But, presumably, the force required wouldn't *require* a hammer

    Yes, the "apply percussion" type of rivets require a hammer (and usually
    a form tool), and cannot be used in blind holes.
    The cited rivets appear to be "pop rivets in reverse". I.e., there is
    a rod protruding from the *top* (formed) side of the rivet. As this
    is pressed into the rivet body, the walls of the rivet are forced outward
    in a manner similar (but different) to how the rod being *pulled* from
    a pop rivet deforms THOSE walls.

    Contrast with a "regular" rivet that requires a swage to form the yet-unformed end of the rivet.

    So, pressing (with sufficient force) on that pin will achieve the
    same result as wacking it with a hammer. The question is: how
    much force is required (cuz you are indirectly transferring that
    force to the item into which the rivet is being installed!)

    Drive rivet: <https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-c7chaa/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/719/1859/drive_rivet__63707.1517517434.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on>
    note the "split end", at right, that is inserted into the hole.
    The protruding rod remains *inside* the rivet after fastening.

    Pop rivet: <https://parts.pjtrailers.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1200x1200/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/8/180500b.jpg>
    note the wide end, at left, that is drawn into the narrow body of the rivet. The protruding rod is snapped off in the forming of the joint.

    Rivet:
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet#/media/File:Rivet01.jpg>
    note the absence of any "protruding rod/movable member" within the
    rivet's body; the end must be peened over to bind.

    All of these leave you with an effectively "solid" rivet -- in that
    there is no clear path through the rivet's body without some additional
    labor step.

    you can get threaded pop rivets, once you have pulled the stem to set the rivet it doesn't snap, instead it unscrews leaving a threaded hole

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bilou@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 17:52:07 2022
    Le 26/01/2022 à 17:41, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit :
    onsdag den 26. januar 2022 kl. 10.48.31 UTC+1 skrev Don Y:
    On 1/26/2022 1:44 AM, Mikko OH2HVJ wrote:
    Why wouldn't I thread the screw into a tapped block (to support and
    reinforce the threads -- as well as act as a heat sink) -- after coating
    it with antiseize (as the drill bit's rotation will tend to want
    to tighten the screw in the block, possibly making removal more
    difficult)?

    because it is much easier to keep the drill centered by spinning the part instead of the drill, try it ..

    https://youtu.be/v5yx1C-maRo

    +1
    It can even be used with hand tools.
    With care you can drill a hole almost twice as long as the drill bit.
    Try it

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jan 27 16:54:51 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 1:44 AM, Mikko OH2HVJ wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    Drill a hole to the screw ? If you don't have a lathe, you can do this
    with a drill press by fixing the screw to the chuck and having the drill
    bit stationary. Drill a starting hole with larger drill and through with
    a smaller one(s).

    ?

    Why wouldn't I thread the screw into a tapped block (to support and
    reinforce the threads -- as well as act as a heat sink) -- after coating
    it with antiseize (as the drill bit's rotation will tend to want
    to tighten the screw in the block, possibly making removal more
    difficult)?

    And, I'd assume move from smaller diameter bits up through larger ones
    to minimize the amount of material being removed with each.

    This has the added advantage of giving me prototypes with increasing
    IDs that I can torque test (i.e., at what point have I removed
    TOO MUCH material and lost strength?). Trying to do this with
    ever smaller IDs means having to make (and destroy!) multiple screws
    to test (until you find one "strong enough").

    Brass is easier to work with, but suitable drills work fine with steel,
    too.

    Why are you asking for help doing possibly the most simple task on a lathe, ever
    if you have all the expertise?

    You make everything overly complex and still end up with dumb solutions. It's fascinating.

    Drilling through the length of a fasterner, isn't hard. Drilling thtough even a 1/4-20 bolt can be done by hand with drill and pliers. It's not an engineering challenge. I used to drill through 12-24 screws all the time with just a hardware
    store drill bit and thread cutting oil.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt Christensen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 27 10:02:33 2022
    torsdag den 27. januar 2022 kl. 17.54.57 UTC+1 skrev Cydrome Leader:
    Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 1:44 AM, Mikko OH2HVJ wrote:
    Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> writes:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    Drill a hole to the screw ? If you don't have a lathe, you can do this
    with a drill press by fixing the screw to the chuck and having the drill >> bit stationary. Drill a starting hole with larger drill and through with >> a smaller one(s).

    ?

    Why wouldn't I thread the screw into a tapped block (to support and reinforce the threads -- as well as act as a heat sink) -- after coating
    it with antiseize (as the drill bit's rotation will tend to want
    to tighten the screw in the block, possibly making removal more
    difficult)?

    And, I'd assume move from smaller diameter bits up through larger ones
    to minimize the amount of material being removed with each.

    This has the added advantage of giving me prototypes with increasing
    IDs that I can torque test (i.e., at what point have I removed
    TOO MUCH material and lost strength?). Trying to do this with
    ever smaller IDs means having to make (and destroy!) multiple screws
    to test (until you find one "strong enough").

    Brass is easier to work with, but suitable drills work fine with steel,
    too.

    Why are you asking for help doing possibly the most simple task on a lathe, ever
    if you have all the expertise?

    You make everything overly complex and still end up with dumb solutions. It's fascinating.

    all Dons threads seems to end like that

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Thu Jan 27 12:10:38 2022
    On 1/26/2022 10:15 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Many. But you need to define what you are trying to accomplish here,
    versus all the things that didn't work, or useful answers may be rare.
    What metals are allowed or required?

    Stainless and glass. I'm sure any manufacturing techniques appropriate
    to one "fastener" will liely NOT be appropriate to the other! :>

    It looks like we'll make a set of different swages for the stainless
    (to get the different "profiles" desired) and have them produced to order.
    Some form of friction clip along the lines of the one I cited, elsewhere,
    to secure them. The profiles should suggest that they aren't intended to
    be removed (unlike screws which have visible geometries suggestive of
    a tool-to-rotate)

    But, that can't stop anyone determined to drill them out, etc. (in which
    case, they'll have to deal with the consequences: "No user serviceable parts inside".

    Of course, I suspect folks will be considerably less willing to
    try dicking with the glass ones! (how are they going to replace
    them when they *do* break them? :> )

    Abandoning the screw idea means a single packaging solution can apply
    to both types of materials. And, I can hack together a reasonable approximation of a (steel) prototype with COTS parts.

    Talking to a guy, today, about glass fabrication techniques. And,
    a tour, next week, of a shop to see things first-hand.

    This will be interesting!

    The quickest solution may be to use a metalworking lathe to make the
    needed bit. Unless the following works:

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Thu Jan 27 19:52:16 2022
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Many. But you need to define what you are trying to accomplish here,
    versus all the things that didn't work, or useful answers may be rare.
    What metals are allowed or required?

    The quickest solution may be to use a metalworking lathe to make the
    needed bit. Unless the following works:

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/threaded-tubes/hollow-threaded-studs/>

    Joe Gwinn

    That's sort of the problem here. He has absolutely no idea what he wants or what
    he is even talking about. It's all nonsense try to sound "clever". Any good info
    is shot down with a dumb reply and weird drawn-out reason about why solutions people with real problems use with success are not valid.

    Latest bizarre acronym obsession = COTS. What will it be next?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jan 27 20:28:48 2022
    On 2022-01-27, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/27/2022 1:21 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 11:47:20 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 8:54 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:

    But, if one end of the rivet remains "blind", you need something to
    grab it/bite into it.

    How about drive rivets?
    "Pop" rivets?

    No, not the apply-tension type, the apply-percussion type, that uses
    a pin protruding from the head that is struck with a hammer...

    But, presumably, the force required wouldn't *require* a hammer
    as the pin's motion is deforming the rivet in a manner simmilar to
    the "early tugs" on a pop rivet. The final -- higher force -- tug
    on the pop rivet is solely to snap the pin; the rivet has already
    been deformed (i.e., the pin could be left in place without affecting
    the quality of the fastening).

    Or, are the rivets made of tougher stuff that requires more force
    (e.g., hammer-struck)?

    I'm off to hardware store, today, for some spray paint. I will see if
    they have anything that I can evaluate.

    some are plastic and need the pin, some are metal and permanently
    deform, but probably still need the pin.


    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Fri Jan 28 08:29:13 2022
    On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:29:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 1/26/2022 6:41 AM, legg wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Look at bicycle caliper brake adjustment hardware.

    Thread OD typically 0.225in - possibly an M5 or M6 thread.

    That's an idea! I've not owned a bike in years so can't recall
    the details but I do recall their presence by the brake levers
    (effectively altering the ratio of inner cable to outer sheath)

    Tends to be Aluminum in the caliper adjustment, but longer and
    brass in the presta valve. Tubes are easier to come by and are
    regularly trashed, so maybe easier to get.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cydrome Leader@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 28 14:57:35 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/26/2022 10:15 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Many. But you need to define what you are trying to accomplish here,
    versus all the things that didn't work, or useful answers may be rare.
    What metals are allowed or required?

    Stainless and glass. I'm sure any manufacturing techniques appropriate
    to one "fastener" will liely NOT be appropriate to the other! :>

    It looks like we'll make a set of different swages for the stainless
    (to get the different "profiles" desired) and have them produced to order. Some form of friction clip along the lines of the one I cited, elsewhere,
    to secure them. The profiles should suggest that they aren't intended to
    be removed (unlike screws which have visible geometries suggestive of
    a tool-to-rotate)

    But, that can't stop anyone determined to drill them out, etc. (in which case, they'll have to deal with the consequences: "No user serviceable parts inside".

    Of course, I suspect folks will be considerably less willing to
    try dicking with the glass ones! (how are they going to replace
    them when they *do* break them? :> )

    Abandoning the screw idea means a single packaging solution can apply
    to both types of materials. And, I can hack together a reasonable approximation of a (steel) prototype with COTS parts.

    Talking to a guy, today, about glass fabrication techniques. And,
    a tour, next week, of a shop to see things first-hand.

    This will be interesting!

    The quickest solution may be to use a metalworking lathe to make the
    needed bit. Unless the following works:

    Blowhard rating : 10+

    This guy went from can't drill a hole in a 1/4-20 bolt to custom swages
    and glass fabrication tecniques to avoid visible geometries.

    Classic. Keep these coming! I want to hear how you attack the unsolved
    problem of keeping a stack of papers connected to each other so they don't
    get lost, out of order and can be handled as one unit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Cydrome Leader on Fri Jan 28 15:32:21 2022
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA512

    Cydrome Leader wrote:
    [...]
    Classic. Keep these coming! I want to hear how you attack the unsolved problem of keeping a stack of papers connected to each other so they
    don't get lost, out of order and can be handled as one unit.

    Obviously a (diagonal) stripe along the edges such that any misalignment
    is visible.

    Granted, this doesn't solve losing a page, but any other method would
    have you losing the entire stack! Obviously it's the superior choice.

    (the above to be read with tongue firmly in cheek :) )

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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    =LScO
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --
    |_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
    |O|O|O|

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Fri Jan 28 19:43:26 2022
    On 1/28/2022 6:29 AM, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:29:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 1/26/2022 6:41 AM, legg wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Look at bicycle caliper brake adjustment hardware.

    Thread OD typically 0.225in - possibly an M5 or M6 thread.

    That's an idea! I've not owned a bike in years so can't recall
    the details but I do recall their presence by the brake levers
    (effectively altering the ratio of inner cable to outer sheath)

    Tends to be Aluminum in the caliper adjustment, but longer and
    brass in the presta valve. Tubes are easier to come by and are
    regularly trashed, so maybe easier to get.

    So, unlike the practice (as a kid) of *patching* a tube for reuse,
    they are now considered "disposable"? (or, has some aspect changed
    that makes patching impractical)

    OK, so my neighbor (semi-professional rider who does these 100-mile
    "tours") won't be "put out" by my asking him to save his next flat
    for me? (or, canvas his friends for one)

    I know he volunteers at a local non-profit that builds bikes for underprivileged kids. Would those types of builds use tubes with
    that valve? Or, would they still be Shrader? (i.e., how likely
    would that group be as a source of a "bad tube"?)

    Thanks!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 28 22:45:51 2022
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:24:58 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    I need ...a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    If you can CAD the shape and pick a material from a list,
    there's online shops that'll do the rest for ya.

    <https://www.emachineshop.com/start/>

    A threaded tube is just chuck a rod, drill on axis,
    turn to diameter, thread, and part off, robotic lathes can do it quick and easy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sat Jan 29 11:04:39 2022
    On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:43:26 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 1/28/2022 6:29 AM, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:29:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 1/26/2022 6:41 AM, legg wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined
    parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Look at bicycle caliper brake adjustment hardware.

    Thread OD typically 0.225in - possibly an M5 or M6 thread.

    That's an idea! I've not owned a bike in years so can't recall
    the details but I do recall their presence by the brake levers
    (effectively altering the ratio of inner cable to outer sheath)

    Tends to be Aluminum in the caliper adjustment, but longer and
    brass in the presta valve. Tubes are easier to come by and are
    regularly trashed, so maybe easier to get.

    So, unlike the practice (as a kid) of *patching* a tube for reuse,
    they are now considered "disposable"? (or, has some aspect changed
    that makes patching impractical)

    OK, so my neighbor (semi-professional rider who does these 100-mile
    "tours") won't be "put out" by my asking him to save his next flat
    for me? (or, canvas his friends for one)

    I know he volunteers at a local non-profit that builds bikes for >underprivileged kids. Would those types of builds use tubes with
    that valve? Or, would they still be Shrader? (i.e., how likely
    would that group be as a source of a "bad tube"?)

    Thanks!

    Real bike nuts use some kind of strange tubeless concoction.

    Your local bike or sports store will stock tubes with either
    presta or schraeder valves. Schraeders aren't any use to you.

    If they've got a repair department they'll likely have a handfull
    of old tubes in their garbage. New tubes can be had for <$5.

    I carry patched spares in my bike tool kit, because repairs on
    the road are quicker that way, and patching works better in
    a dry, well-lit and heated environment.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Sun Jan 30 00:08:54 2022
    On 1/29/2022 9:04 AM, legg wrote:
    On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 19:43:26 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 1/28/2022 6:29 AM, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:29:31 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 1/26/2022 6:41 AM, legg wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 23:24:34 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I need a screw (a bit over 1/4" thread diameter) with a hole
    drilled longitudinally throughout its length. The hole as
    large as feasible without significantly reducing the strength
    to unusable (nebulous term) levels.

    I realize I will eventually have to contract a casting or machined >>>>>> parts.

    But, am looking for onesy-twosy quantities to demo a prototype.

    I thought I could approximate it using a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    I thought of manually threading a (soft, brass?) pipe of
    suitable ID/OD.

    Also thought of having one *printed* -- but I'm not sure getting
    the threads right would be practical (driven by how fine the
    layers are?). (I think most *plastics* would be too brittle
    when torqued in such an application so I'd have to print in
    metal)

    I also thought of physically removing the core material from
    a COTS screw (drill/cut -- possible with a brass screw?).

    Any other options?

    Look at bicycle caliper brake adjustment hardware.

    Thread OD typically 0.225in - possibly an M5 or M6 thread.

    That's an idea! I've not owned a bike in years so can't recall
    the details but I do recall their presence by the brake levers
    (effectively altering the ratio of inner cable to outer sheath)

    Tends to be Aluminum in the caliper adjustment, but longer and
    brass in the presta valve. Tubes are easier to come by and are
    regularly trashed, so maybe easier to get.

    So, unlike the practice (as a kid) of *patching* a tube for reuse,
    they are now considered "disposable"? (or, has some aspect changed
    that makes patching impractical)

    OK, so my neighbor (semi-professional rider who does these 100-mile
    "tours") won't be "put out" by my asking him to save his next flat
    for me? (or, canvas his friends for one)

    I know he volunteers at a local non-profit that builds bikes for
    underprivileged kids. Would those types of builds use tubes with
    that valve? Or, would they still be Shrader? (i.e., how likely
    would that group be as a source of a "bad tube"?)

    Thanks!

    Real bike nuts use some kind of strange tubeless concoction.

    Your local bike or sports store will stock tubes with either
    presta or schraeder valves. Schraeders aren't any use to you.

    If they've got a repair department they'll likely have a handfull
    of old tubes in their garbage. New tubes can be had for <$5.

    I'd rather find a "waste" tube that I can cannabilize and replace it
    with a new tube -- than buy a new tube just to cut it up! That's
    why the question re: the sorts of tubes the charity would likely
    be using (needing).

    I carry patched spares in my bike tool kit, because repairs on
    the road are quicker that way, and patching works better in
    a dry, well-lit and heated environment.

    No doubt! Not to mention the lack of urgency that it affords.

    I don't think I ever was far enough from "home", with a flat, that it
    was an issue. But, my longest rides were ~50 mi (25 out and 25 back)
    and, in a pinch, I could always phone for a lift home (as a teenager).

    Folks routinely ride up/down the mountain, here ("training") and I
    pity them if they had an incident; there's NOTHING along the way
    and you're dealing with 55MPH traffic at the same time with hardly
    a shoulder to rely on (one side is rock face, the other is cliff)

    It seems like bike riding was less risky when I was younger...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 30 00:17:51 2022
    On 1/28/2022 11:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:24:58 PM UTC-8, Don Y wrote:
    I need ...a threaded tube (NOT
    a pipe nipple). But, getting premade threaded tubing in that
    range seems difficult.

    If you can CAD the shape and pick a material from a list,
    there's online shops that'll do the rest for ya.

    <https://www.emachineshop.com/start/>

    A threaded tube is just chuck a rod, drill on axis,
    turn to diameter, thread, and part off, robotic lathes can do it quick and easy.

    The "free/exposed end" will require more treatment. (there are several different "profiles" required -- but, these only affect the exposed
    portion of the fastener)

    My current plan is to accumulate COTS samples of parts and evaluate them
    as to strength, deformation, etc. (it's one thing to have a number that alleges to represent the torque limits of a design -- another thing to
    actually subject that to the torque from your hand/tool/etc. and observe
    the results). From that, settle on a wall thickness and fine-tune the
    profiles (e.g., to make them "less encouraging" to folks who may be tempted
    to "unfasten" them)

    [BTW, the "drive rivets" that I found at the local hardware require far
    too much force to deform. That force would be carried through to the
    rest of the unit. A *pop* rivet localizes the force between the
    rivet and the tool so there is no risk of damage to the rest of the
    device as the rivet is deformed.]

    Then, research manufacturing tolerances for the different materials/markets involved and try to find a "common denominator" that allows one set of
    drawings to address the different designs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Sun Jan 30 11:44:34 2022
    On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:08:54 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    <snip>
    I know he volunteers at a local non-profit that builds bikes for
    underprivileged kids. Would those types of builds use tubes with
    that valve? Or, would they still be Shrader? (i.e., how likely
    would that group be as a source of a "bad tube"?)

    Thanks!

    Real bike nuts use some kind of strange tubeless concoction.

    Your local bike or sports store will stock tubes with either
    presta or schraeder valves. Schraeders aren't any use to you.

    If they've got a repair department they'll likely have a handfull
    of old tubes in their garbage. New tubes can be had for <$5.

    I'd rather find a "waste" tube that I can cannabilize and replace it
    with a new tube -- than buy a new tube just to cut it up! That's
    why the question re: the sorts of tubes the charity would likely
    be using (needing).

    I carry patched spares in my bike tool kit, because repairs on
    the road are quicker that way, and patching works better in
    a dry, well-lit and heated environment.

    No doubt! Not to mention the lack of urgency that it affords.

    I don't think I ever was far enough from "home", with a flat, that it
    was an issue. But, my longest rides were ~50 mi (25 out and 25 back)
    and, in a pinch, I could always phone for a lift home (as a teenager).

    Folks routinely ride up/down the mountain, here ("training") and I
    pity them if they had an incident; there's NOTHING along the way
    and you're dealing with 55MPH traffic at the same time with hardly
    a shoulder to rely on (one side is rock face, the other is cliff)

    It seems like bike riding was less risky when I was younger...

    It probably seems that way when you're younger and are unaware
    of the hazards, but higher density traffic does require common
    sense and defensive driving/riding techniques. Oldsters don't
    ride bikes the same way that youngsters do.

    I ride for transportation, so a 10 minute delay for a tube changeout
    has to be budgeted in a sensibly less-than-45-minute commute
    (this being a consideration before negotiating a job or accomodation).
    We get snow here, so there are days when the weather sensibly calls
    for shanks mare or public transit (where available). You should know
    that the road surface is stable along your route - makes lane sharing
    with 6 ton behemoths more practical.

    I maintain two bikes - one with 32C Schraeder-valve tires that never
    go flat and a fancier spare with 24C presta-valve tires that go flat
    if you look at them the wrong way.

    If you don't remove a holed tube quickly, it can be rendered
    unpatchable - a practice that produces a lot of trashed tubes.
    Bike repair guys also will replace rather than repair a leaking
    tube - its an FRU that's cheaper to replace than to troubleshoot,
    as with a lot of things these days.

    RL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to legg on Sun Jan 30 14:07:16 2022
    On 1/30/2022 9:44 AM, legg wrote:
    On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:08:54 -0700, Don Y

    I don't think I ever was far enough from "home", with a flat, that it
    was an issue. But, my longest rides were ~50 mi (25 out and 25 back)
    and, in a pinch, I could always phone for a lift home (as a teenager).

    Folks routinely ride up/down the mountain, here ("training") and I
    pity them if they had an incident; there's NOTHING along the way
    and you're dealing with 55MPH traffic at the same time with hardly
    a shoulder to rely on (one side is rock face, the other is cliff)

    It seems like bike riding was less risky when I was younger...

    It probably seems that way when you're younger and are unaware
    of the hazards, but higher density traffic does require common
    sense and defensive driving/riding techniques. Oldsters don't
    ride bikes the same way that youngsters do.

    Most (all?) of my bike-riding happened before I went off to
    school as I wasn't old enough to drive. Yet, still needed
    to get myself to the various "gifted student" programs in
    which I was enrolled (hence the 25 miles each way) on weekends
    and summer days -- both times when my folks were unavailable to
    schlep me around!

    Back then, a "highway" was two lanes (one each direction) with
    a generous shoulder. And, traffic volume was lighter.

    And, I could exploit back roads to avoid the majority of traffic
    (save for a few stretches) or exploit the topography.

    Here, OTOH, the road onto which my subdivision empties is 6 lanes
    and has a posted speed limit of 45MPH -- which means 55MPH is the
    nominal rate of travel (for motor vehicles).

    [The speed limit in town is 45 for most roads; 25 in "neighborhoods"]

    On a two-lane road, you can sit on the right shoulder and still
    manage to make a left across traffic.

    On a 6-lane road -- with two more lanes for turns -- you really
    have to be in the left lane in order to turn left. And, once
    you've navigated the turn, you now find yourself in the left lane
    trying to get back over to the right shoulder! :<

    [We have a fair number of bicyclists, pedestrians, etc. involved
    in accidents because of the mismatch between motor vehicle operators
    and these "burdened" forms of travel]

    I ride for transportation, so a 10 minute delay for a tube changeout
    has to be budgeted in a sensibly less-than-45-minute commute
    (this being a consideration before negotiating a job or accomodation).

    As was the case for me. But, I was going to *class* so there's not
    as much downside to being delayed as there would be with an
    employer.

    We get snow here, so there are days when the weather sensibly calls
    for shanks mare or public transit (where available). You should know
    that the road surface is stable along your route - makes lane sharing
    with 6 ton behemoths more practical.

    I recall my first discovery of the value of "fenders" the first time
    traveling in inclement weather. Moral of story: wear a light jacket
    if only to protect the back of your shirt! :<

    I maintain two bikes - one with 32C Schraeder-valve tires that never
    go flat and a fancier spare with 24C presta-valve tires that go flat
    if you look at them the wrong way.

    I will keep that in mind if I ever opt to purchase a bike. Though
    I imagine my riding days are behind me (I walk to places that most
    folks would ride for the value of the exercise -- most trips, here,
    are < 4mi each way: library, post office, grocers, etc.)

    If you don't remove a holed tube quickly, it can be rendered
    unpatchable - a practice that produces a lot of trashed tubes.
    Bike repair guys also will replace rather than repair a leaking
    tube - its an FRU that's cheaper to replace than to troubleshoot,
    as with a lot of things these days.

    That was what I had suspected. As a kid, buying a replacement
    was unheard of -- you fixed what you had! And, as it was impractical
    to ride on a flat, you "hoofed it" when the tire gave up the ghost.

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  • From Mikko OH2HVJ@21:1/5 to Don Y on Mon Jan 31 16:28:15 2022
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
    On 1/26/2022 1:44 AM, Mikko OH2HVJ wrote:
    with a drill press by fixing the screw to the chuck and having the drill
    bit stationary. Drill a starting hole with larger drill and through with
    a smaller one(s).

    Why wouldn't I thread the screw into a tapped block (to support and
    reinforce the threads -- as well as act as a heat sink) -- after coating
    it with antiseize (as the drill bit's rotation will tend to want
    to tighten the screw in the block, possibly making removal more
    difficult)?

    Centering is way easier that way. If you want to have any larger hole,
    you'll damage the threads with non-centered hole.

    And, I'd assume move from smaller diameter bits up through larger ones
    to minimize the amount of material being removed with each.

    Nope, make a small starting indent first with an oversize drill. A
    center drill would be the correct tool, but I assumed you would not have
    that (nor lathe).

    --
    mikko

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