• solidifying toroid core position and windings?

    From Jake T@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 10 04:54:15 2022
    I just finished making up a multi order HF band pass filter for one of
    my ham radio bands. A friend wants me to make one up and send it to him
    too. I'm leary of this because I used toroid cores. During shipping, I
    can imagine them coming detached or otherwise losing their tuning
    because the windings move around from the bouncing around during
    transit. I have some quick, 1 hour, two part epoxy here made for PC
    use. Could I carefully "paint" each toroid, windings and some epoxy
    between toroid and circuit board so it also won't move? Need a quick,
    easy, and effective solution. I wouldn't think the clear, two part
    epoxy would affect Q or tuning, or would it?

    Thank you!

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  • From Fox's Mercantile@21:1/5 to Jake T on Thu Feb 10 04:23:23 2022
    On 2/10/22 3:54 AM, Jake T wrote:
    I have some quick, 1 hour, two part epoxy here made for PC use.

    This is the correct stuff to use. https://shopintertex.com/gc-electronics-10-3702-q-dope-bottle-with-brush-2-fl-oz.html


    --
    "I am a river to my people."
    Jeff-1.0
    WA6FWi
    http:foxsmercantile.com

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  • From amdx@21:1/5 to Jake T on Fri Feb 11 15:37:01 2022
    On 2/10/2022 3:54 AM, Jake T wrote:
    I just finished making up a multi order HF band pass filter for one of
    my ham radio bands.  A friend wants me to make one up and send it to
    him too.  I'm leary of this because I used toroid cores.  During
    shipping, I can imagine them coming detached or otherwise losing their
    tuning because the windings move around from the bouncing around
    during transit.  I have some quick, 1 hour, two part epoxy here made
    for PC use.  Could I carefully "paint" each toroid, windings and some
    epoxy between toroid and circuit board so it also won't move?  Need a
    quick, easy, and effective solution.  I wouldn't think the clear, two
    part epoxy would affect Q or tuning, or would it?

    Thank you!

     I have used polystyrene dissolved in Acetone. Best if you can find
    crystal styrene like used in parts drawers.

    It will dissolve... slowly.

    But I started with polystyrene foam dissolved in acetone.

     I have a 4" coil I used this on well over 10 years ago and it it still holding up.

                                       Mikek


    --
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  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 11 20:08:12 2022
    On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 04:54:15 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:

    I just finished making up a multi order HF band pass filter for one of
    my ham radio bands. A friend wants me to make one up and send it to him
    too. I'm leary of this because I used toroid cores. During shipping, I
    can imagine them coming detached or otherwise losing their tuning
    because the windings move around from the bouncing around during
    transit. I have some quick, 1 hour, two part epoxy here made for PC
    use. Could I carefully "paint" each toroid, windings and some epoxy
    between toroid and circuit board so it also won't move? Need a quick,
    easy, and effective solution. I wouldn't think the clear, two part
    epoxy would affect Q or tuning, or would it?

    Thank you!

    If your toroidal inductors are wound that loose, you'll have damage in shipping, mostly from the enamel coating falling off from vibration.
    Some kind of conformal coating will help. <https://www.chemtronics.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-conformal-coating>
    Before selecting any coating, lookup the loss tangent values and see
    if it will get hot due to RF losses. If you're not sure, coat a PCB
    with the coating, let it dry, and bake it in a microwave oven. If it
    tends to crumble, burn, melt, or otherwise self destruct, find
    something with less loss. 1kW at 2.4GHz is a rather brutal test for a
    coating that only needs to work up to 30MHz, but is quick and easy. If
    it survives at 2.4GHz, it will work at 30MHz.

    If the BP filter is designed using high Q inductors and mechanical
    vibration detunes these inductors, your design is faulty and you will
    have other problems, such as multiple problems caused by water. I
    used to design marine radios and quickly learned that high-impedances,
    high-Q tuned circuits, and high voltages were really bad ideas in a
    marine environment. So, we designed most everything using low
    impedances, low-Q tuned circuits, and low voltages. The result was
    that the radio worked nicely when wet and did not require any kind of
    coating. Such coatings are a mess to apply and handle. Rework is
    either difficult or impossible.

    Here's an example from about 1980. This is the Intech Inc Mariner
    3600 150w PEP SSB HF marine radio: <https://ce3dr.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_1630.jpg> <https://ce3dr.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_1631.jpg> <https://ce3dr.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_1632.jpg> <https://www.hellocq.net/forum/read.php?tid=226493>
    The large board full of toroidal inductors are the TX/RX LP (low pass)
    filters. We didn't use or need BP (band pass) filters. Notice the
    lack of any conformal coating. I will admit that we did use some wax
    to keep the synthesizer VCO from becoming microphonic. It was also
    one of the few circuits that were sensitive to moisture.

    Good luck.

    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  • From Jake T@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 13 07:52:07 2022
    T24gMi8xMS8yMiAxNjozNywgYW1keCB3cm90ZToNCj4gT24gMi8xMC8yMDIyIDM6NTQgQU0s IEpha2UgVCB3cm90ZToNCj4+IEkganVzdCBmaW5pc2hlZCBtYWtpbmcgdXAgYSBtdWx0aSBv cmRlciBIRiBiYW5kIHBhc3MgZmlsdGVyIGZvciBvbmUgb2YgDQo+PiBteSBoYW0gcmFkaW8g YmFuZHMuwqAgQSBmcmllbmQgd2FudHMgbWUgdG8gbWFrZSBvbmUgdXAgYW5kIHNlbmQgaXQg dG8gDQo+PiBoaW0gdG9vLsKgIEknbSBsZWFyeSBvZiB0aGlzIGJlY2F1c2UgSSB1c2VkIHRv cm9pZCBjb3Jlcy7CoCBEdXJpbmcgDQo+PiBzaGlwcGluZywgSSBjYW4gaW1hZ2luZSB0aGVt IGNvbWluZyBkZXRhY2hlZCBvciBvdGhlcndpc2UgbG9zaW5nIHRoZWlyIA0KPj4gdHVuaW5n IGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlIHdpbmRpbmdzIG1vdmUgYXJvdW5kIGZyb20gdGhlIGJvdW5jaW5nIGFy b3VuZCANCj4+IGR1cmluZyB0cmFuc2l0LsKgIEkgaGF2ZSBzb21lIHF1aWNrLCAxIGhvdXIs IHR3byBwYXJ0IGVwb3h5IGhlcmUgbWFkZSANCj4+IGZvciBQQyB1c2UuwqAgQ291bGQgSSBj YXJlZnVsbHkgInBhaW50IiBlYWNoIHRvcm9pZCwgd2luZGluZ3MgYW5kIHNvbWUgDQo+PiBl cG94eSBiZXR3ZWVuIHRvcm9pZCBhbmQgY2lyY3VpdCBib2FyZCBzbyBpdCBhbHNvIHdvbid0 IG1vdmU/wqAgTmVlZCBhIA0KPj4gcXVpY2ssIGVhc3ksIGFuZCBlZmZlY3RpdmUgc29sdXRp b24uwqAgSSB3b3VsZG4ndCB0aGluayB0aGUgY2xlYXIsIHR3byANCj4+IHBhcnQgZXBveHkg d291bGQgYWZmZWN0IFEgb3IgdHVuaW5nLCBvciB3b3VsZCBpdD8NCj4+DQo+PiBUaGFuayB5 b3UhDQo+IA0KPiAgwqBJIGhhdmUgdXNlZCBwb2x5c3R5cmVuZSBkaXNzb2x2ZWQgaW4gQWNl dG9uZS4gQmVzdCBpZiB5b3UgY2FuIGZpbmQgDQo+IGNyeXN0YWwgc3R5cmVuZSBsaWtlIHVz ZWQgaW4gcGFydHMgZHJhd2Vycy4NCj4gDQo+IEl0IHdpbGwgZGlzc29sdmUuLi4gc2xvd2x5 Lg0KPiANCj4gQnV0IEkgc3RhcnRlZCB3aXRoIHBvbHlzdHlyZW5lIGZvYW0gZGlzc29sdmVk IGluIGFjZXRvbmUuDQo+IA0KPiAgwqBJIGhhdmUgYSA0IiBjb2lsIEkgdXNlZCB0aGlzIG9u IHdlbGwgb3ZlciAxMCB5ZWFycyBhZ28gYW5kIGl0IGl0IHN0aWxsIA0KPiBob2xkaW5nIHVw Lg0KPiANCj4gIMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKg wqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgwqDCoMKgIE1pa2VrDQoNClRoaXMgaXMgZXhhY3RseSB3aGF0 IEkgZW5kZWQgdXAgZG9pbmcsIGRpc3NvbHZpbmcgZm9hbSBpbiBhY2V0b25lLiAgSXQgDQpk aWRuJ3QgbWl4IHRoZSBncmVhdGVzdCBhcyBJIHNob3VsZCBwcm9iYWJseSBoYXZlIHVzZWQg YSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgDQpzb2x2ZW50LCBsaWtlIGV0aHlsIGFjZXRhdGUsIGJ1dCBpdCBnb3Qg dGhlIGpvYiBkb25lLiAgQW5kIEkgc3RpbGwgaGF2ZSANCnBsZW50eSBsZWZ0IG92ZXIgaW4g YSBzZWFsZWQgamFyLg0KDQo=

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  • From Jake T@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Sun Feb 13 07:55:55 2022
    On 2/11/22 23:08, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 04:54:15 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:

    I just finished making up a multi order HF band pass filter for one of
    my ham radio bands. A friend wants me to make one up and send it to him
    too. I'm leary of this because I used toroid cores. During shipping, I
    can imagine them coming detached or otherwise losing their tuning
    because the windings move around from the bouncing around during
    transit. I have some quick, 1 hour, two part epoxy here made for PC
    use. Could I carefully "paint" each toroid, windings and some epoxy
    between toroid and circuit board so it also won't move? Need a quick,
    easy, and effective solution. I wouldn't think the clear, two part
    epoxy would affect Q or tuning, or would it?

    Thank you!

    If your toroidal inductors are wound that loose, you'll have damage in shipping, mostly from the enamel coating falling off from vibration.
    Some kind of conformal coating will help. <https://www.chemtronics.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-conformal-coating>
    Before selecting any coating, lookup the loss tangent values and see
    if it will get hot due to RF losses. If you're not sure, coat a PCB
    with the coating, let it dry, and bake it in a microwave oven. If it
    tends to crumble, burn, melt, or otherwise self destruct, find
    something with less loss. 1kW at 2.4GHz is a rather brutal test for a coating that only needs to work up to 30MHz, but is quick and easy. If
    it survives at 2.4GHz, it will work at 30MHz.

    If the BP filter is designed using high Q inductors and mechanical
    vibration detunes these inductors, your design is faulty and you will
    have other problems, such as multiple problems caused by water. I
    used to design marine radios and quickly learned that high-impedances,
    high-Q tuned circuits, and high voltages were really bad ideas in a
    marine environment. So, we designed most everything using low
    impedances, low-Q tuned circuits, and low voltages. The result was
    that the radio worked nicely when wet and did not require any kind of coating. Such coatings are a mess to apply and handle. Rework is
    either difficult or impossible.

    Here's an example from about 1980. This is the Intech Inc Mariner
    3600 150w PEP SSB HF marine radio: <https://ce3dr.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_1630.jpg> <https://ce3dr.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_1631.jpg> <https://ce3dr.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_1632.jpg> <https://www.hellocq.net/forum/read.php?tid=226493>
    The large board full of toroidal inductors are the TX/RX LP (low pass) filters. We didn't use or need BP (band pass) filters. Notice the
    lack of any conformal coating. I will admit that we did use some wax
    to keep the synthesizer VCO from becoming microphonic. It was also
    one of the few circuits that were sensitive to moisture.

    Good luck.


    Thanks for the info. I should have mentioned that this was for a
    receiver and will never be used for a transmitter. I ended up making
    the poly glue myself using white foam dissolved in acetone. Works fine.
    Took about 8 hours to fully dry. Very sold result and non-conductive.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 13 17:31:00 2022
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 07:55:55 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:
    (chomp)

    Thanks for the info. I should have mentioned that this was for a
    receiver and will never be used for a transmitter. I ended up making
    the poly glue myself using white foam dissolved in acetone. Works fine.
    Took about 8 hours to fully dry. Very sold result and non-conductive.

    You may have goofed. If you are using enamel, lacquer or shellac
    insulated copper "magnet" wire for winding your coils, the acetone
    solvent will dissolve the insulation. I suspect the reason you
    observed a "solid result" is because the "melting" insulation has now
    glued itself to the insulation on adjacent turns. That's pretty good
    if you can keep it from moving, but since dissolving the insulation
    also makes it thinner, I suspect that any movement will cause
    intermittent shorted turns.

    Hint: Check a chemical resistance chart for whatever you're using for insulated wire before using any solvents:
    "Enameled Wire Insulation Characteristics" <https://mwswire.com/insulation-characteristics/>

    Before wave soldering machines switched from using chlorinated
    hydrocarbon solvents to clean off solder flux (about 1974), to aqueous
    (water) based cleaning solutions, we used to use vapor degreasers
    loaded with trichlorethylene solvent to clean PCB (printed circuit
    boards), which included the boards full of PE (plain enamel) magnet
    wire wound torroidal inductors (as shown in the M3600 photos I
    previously linked). We had to use a special insulated magnet wire AND
    keep the temperature very low in the vapor degreaser, in order to not
    soften the insulation. We also had to learn not to touch the coils
    until the PCB was dry and at room temperature. Polyurethane based
    insulations were better but still required some care.

    Good luck.

    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jake T@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Mon Feb 14 05:58:25 2022
    On 2/13/22 20:31, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 07:55:55 -0500, Jake T <jaketbone@steak.com>
    wrote:
    (chomp)

    Thanks for the info. I should have mentioned that this was for a
    receiver and will never be used for a transmitter. I ended up making
    the poly glue myself using white foam dissolved in acetone. Works fine.
    Took about 8 hours to fully dry. Very sold result and non-conductive.

    You may have goofed. If you are using enamel, lacquer or shellac
    insulated copper "magnet" wire for winding your coils, the acetone
    solvent will dissolve the insulation. I suspect the reason you
    observed a "solid result" is because the "melting" insulation has now
    glued itself to the insulation on adjacent turns. That's pretty good
    if you can keep it from moving, but since dissolving the insulation
    also makes it thinner, I suspect that any movement will cause
    intermittent shorted turns.

    Hint: Check a chemical resistance chart for whatever you're using for insulated wire before using any solvents:
    "Enameled Wire Insulation Characteristics" <https://mwswire.com/insulation-characteristics/>

    Ah, good points here! I wondered about using acetone from the start,
    should have checked this further. Well, pretty hard to test the toroids
    in circuit now as there are caps across them, so I placed an identically
    wound spare in acetone for a few hours just to see what occurs.

    I see the MSDS for the actual Q Dope is a mix of the poly and MEK. I
    was going to go with that formula at first, but I only had acetone on
    hand and I can't seem to find MEK locally. There's something called MEK substitute and the MSDS for that seems to indicate that it is ethyl
    acetate. I can get the substitute, but then the question becomes whether
    or not the ethyl acetate would dissolve the enamel. I used to use pure
    ethyl acetate in the past to euthanize insects as entomology used to be
    one of my hobbies. So it, like acetone, can be quite potent.


    Before wave soldering machines switched from using chlorinated
    hydrocarbon solvents to clean off solder flux (about 1974), to aqueous (water) based cleaning solutions, we used to use vapor degreasers
    loaded with trichlorethylene solvent to clean PCB (printed circuit
    boards), which included the boards full of PE (plain enamel) magnet
    wire wound torroidal inductors (as shown in the M3600 photos I
    previously linked). We had to use a special insulated magnet wire AND
    keep the temperature very low in the vapor degreaser, in order to not
    soften the insulation. We also had to learn not to touch the coils
    until the PCB was dry and at room temperature. Polyurethane based insulations were better but still required some care.

    Good luck.


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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jake T@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 14:23:13 2022
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    DQo=

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)