• Lightning Strike

    From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 30 11:43:14 2021
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three houses
    in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced our
    modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Fri Oct 1 07:28:52 2021
    On 1/10/2021 4:43 am, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA


    **SNAP! Same thing happened to me on the 23rd December 2018. I put the
    garbage bin on the street, next to the power pole outside my home. I
    walked down the side passage and up the back steps. Hand on the back
    door and BOOM! Scared the crap out of me. Lights went dead, TV off.
    Checked the breaker box and, when I opened the box, bits of one of those bakelite aluminium disk type power meters fell at my feet. No breaker
    out. No power. Called my next door neighbour and hooked up the essential
    stuff to his, still intact, power. Called my electricity supplier. Guy
    turned up that evening. Informed me that both 'service fuses' (70 Amp -
    2 phase) had failed and I needed to arrange for a level 2 electrician
    (the grade above a regular electrician) to replace them (don't forget:
    It is 230VAC per phase mains over here).

    Level 2 electrician came over, replaced the ancient fuses and holders
    with 100 Amp HRC types. $1,000.00.

    Then I began to take stock of the damage. EVERYTHING connected to my
    home network was fried. My 2 month old, $1,700.00 HP laptop, TV sets,
    phone system, modem, printer and a bunch of other stuff. Insurance
    covered everything, with a $1,000.00 deductible. I estimate that I lost
    about $6,000.00 worth of stuff. Luckily my Rigol 'scope wasn't connected
    to the computer.

    Moral: Everything is wi-fi now. The lightning hit the 20 Metre tree in
    my front yard. Killed the top half. If it had hit 15 seconds earlier, I
    may have been injured by a tracer.

    2 days before Christmas. YIKES! I reckon I could have had the electrical
    work done for less than $300.00, if it had been at any other time of the
    year.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KenW@21:1/5 to peterwieck33@gmail.com on Thu Sep 30 16:30:35 2021
    On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:43:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three houses
    in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced our
    modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA
    Nothing survives a direct hit.


    KenW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clifford Heath@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Fri Oct 1 11:22:57 2021
    On 1/10/21 4:43 am, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure.

    These three items point to a strike on the cable modem, spreading via
    Ethernet wiring, and exiting by the house power, back to the street.

    That happened to us 2 years ago, $10,000 in damage (covered). Better
    grounding probably would have helped. Wifi would have helped too - but
    it's not fast enough to get reasonable throughput to the NAS.

    I think the right answer is to have the cable modem and WiFi on one
    side, with any wired Ethernet completely air-gapped. No penalty as long
    as the Wifi is as fast as our cable, which ours is.

    Having one set of wiring coming into the house means a strike must exit
    through local ground. Having two sets means it can come in one and exit
    the other, dramatically increasing the catchment area for any strikes.

    Clifford Heath

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Michael Terrell on Fri Oct 1 14:04:44 2021
    On 1/10/2021 1:56 pm, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 2:43:17 PM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    I had one hit the marsh behind my home in the mid '90s. I was inside my shop that had no windows, but it lit up thee inside. It caused a battery powered thermometer to explode, and killed my SVGA monitor that wasn't connected to anything. The video
    cable was coiled up around the base. The news reported over 1100 strikes in my area, in under a half hour.

    I had the WACX TV mobile production unit at a telethon for a place for disabled children. We had loaned it to a low power non profit TV station to cover a marathon. They had a large party tent at the finish line, in front of their building. They had a
    platform for a camera operator, under it. He was about a foot away from one of the steel poles when lightning struck, out of a clear sky. It arced to his back, and knocked him down. It also caused every piece of equipment in the mobile unit to fail. It
    would have likely damaged their studio, if we hadn't used a video isolation network. That was about $50,000 worth of equipment.

    The original WACX studio site was also hit. It took out the 1A2 phone system, the 11GHz CARS system that we used as a STL, along with the computer terminals. It fried all the LNAs on two dishes, along with some electrical damage. It also blew away part
    of the concrete wall of the building. It did major damage to the CATV system, as well but their manager loaned us a bucket truck to replace the LNAs even though their crew was working until dark to restore service.. The microwave link had to be returned
    to the factory for three weeks, as we tried to get by with a rented loaner. We ended up having to have a driver make a daily trip 30+ miles one way each day to deliver U-Matic tapes to the new Master Control at the new transmitter site.

    Another strike hit the barn. It caused the TV antenna to explode, and got into the phone line. It took out the SLIC at the street and continued on into town to the CO. That 10 miles of copper was destroyed. It damaged a stereo and destroyed a C band
    satellite receiver.

    There is a reason people use plastic pipe from their wells into their homes, in Florida.

    I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt. It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground. That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

    Lightning happens. :(


    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Terrell@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Thu Sep 30 20:56:34 2021
    On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 2:43:17 PM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    I had one hit the marsh behind my home in the mid '90s. I was inside my shop that had no windows, but it lit up thee inside. It caused a battery powered thermometer to explode, and killed my SVGA monitor that wasn't connected to anything. The video cable
    was coiled up around the base. The news reported over 1100 strikes in my area, in under a half hour.

    I had the WACX TV mobile production unit at a telethon for a place for disabled children. We had loaned it to a low power non profit TV station to cover a marathon. They had a large party tent at the finish line, in front of their building. They had a
    platform for a camera operator, under it. He was about a foot away from one of the steel poles when lightning struck, out of a clear sky. It arced to his back, and knocked him down. It also caused every piece of equipment in the mobile unit to fail. It
    would have likely damaged their studio, if we hadn't used a video isolation network. That was about $50,000 worth of equipment.

    The original WACX studio site was also hit. It took out the 1A2 phone system, the 11GHz CARS system that we used as a STL, along with the computer terminals. It fried all the LNAs on two dishes, along with some electrical damage. It also blew away part
    of the concrete wall of the building. It did major damage to the CATV system, as well but their manager loaned us a bucket truck to replace the LNAs even though their crew was working until dark to restore service.. The microwave link had to be returned
    to the factory for three weeks, as we tried to get by with a rented loaner. We ended up having to have a driver make a daily trip 30+ miles one way each day to deliver U-Matic tapes to the new Master Control at the new transmitter site.

    Another strike hit the barn. It caused the TV antenna to explode, and got into the phone line. It took out the SLIC at the street and continued on into town to the CO. That 10 miles of copper was destroyed. It damaged a stereo and destroyed a C band
    satellite receiver.

    There is a reason people use plastic pipe from their wells into their homes, in Florida.

    I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt. It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground. That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

    Lightning happens. :(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rob@21:1/5 to KenW on Fri Oct 1 09:35:16 2021
    KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:43:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA
    Nothing survives a direct hit.

    Stuff that is prepared for direct hits survives them just fine.
    Of course it requires measures that are too expensive for the typical
    (not highrise) house, but e.g. telecom towers often get hit several
    times a year without any adverse effects.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KenW@21:1/5 to Rob on Fri Oct 1 05:30:46 2021
    On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:35:16 +0200, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:

    KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:43:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset. >>>d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA
    Nothing survives a direct hit.

    Stuff that is prepared for direct hits survives them just fine.
    Of course it requires measures that are too expensive for the typical
    (not highrise) house, but e.g. telecom towers often get hit several
    times a year without any adverse effects.

    Most of us can not afford a faraday cage.


    KenW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rob@21:1/5 to KenW on Fri Oct 1 13:42:56 2021
    KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
    On Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:35:16 +0200, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:

    KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:43:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset. >>>>d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA
    Nothing survives a direct hit.

    Stuff that is prepared for direct hits survives them just fine.
    Of course it requires measures that are too expensive for the typical
    (not highrise) house, but e.g. telecom towers often get hit several
    times a year without any adverse effects.

    Most of us can not afford a faraday cage.


    KenW

    So it should have been "nothing that most of us can afford survives a
    direct hit".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Terrell@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Fri Oct 1 08:57:26 2021
    On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)

    It was, in 1999. Broadband didn't hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

    The kU band uplink that we built for the ISS in 2000, was 40Mb/second.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Fri Oct 1 20:54:15 2021
    On 9/30/2021 2:43 PM, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also checked and verified the grounds three
    houses in both directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown. Comcast replaced
    our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    As I understand, surge protectors are useless if the ground isn't
    working connected properly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Michael Terrell on Fri Oct 1 20:58:28 2021
    On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)

    It was, in 1999. Broadband didn't hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

    I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That's what I have via AT&T DSL
    now. The download isn't so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

    The kU band uplink that we built for the ISS in 2000, was 40Mb/second.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Sat Oct 2 16:18:16 2021
    On 2/10/2021 10:54 am, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 9/30/2021 2:43 PM, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by
    lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not
    even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by surge-protectors,
    but we expect that the damage was via the cable input, not the
    electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset.
    d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a
    surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an hour
    at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs between the
    pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors. They also
    checked and verified the grounds three houses in both directions. Our
    electrician spent two hours checking the box and load-testing, as well
    as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found (and replaced) one
    additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly related? - unknown.
    Comcast replaced our modem and all our TV boxes the following morning,
    and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart' televisions  and phones
    for very nearly pocket-change, also by the following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than
    our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it was
    built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    As I understand, surge protectors are useless

    **There. I fixed it for you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Allison@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sat Oct 2 00:20:49 2021
    Trevor Wilson wrote:
    =================

    I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt.
    It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground.
    That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

    Lightning happens. :(

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)


    ** I well remember when 56K modems were the " ant's pants".
    Slow jpegs, no video but OK for email & browsing text sites.

    Quite astonishing they did that speed using nothing but one POTS voice circuit down miles of twisted pair.


    ....... Phil

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rob@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Sat Oct 2 13:23:22 2021
    Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:
    On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)

    It was, in 1999. Broadband didn't hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

    I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That's what I have via AT&T DSL
    now. The download isn't so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

    Is that a posting from the previous decade that leaked in somehow?

    My DSL is 170Mbps download, 30Mbps upload, and that is considered "slow" here...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Terrell@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Sat Oct 2 08:05:22 2021
    On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 8:58:26 PM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)

    It was, in 1999. Broadband didn't hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Mb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.
    I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That's what I have via AT&T DSL
    now. The download isn't so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

    Yes. I don't sleep well anymore, ad I'm waiting for cataract surgery on both eyes so I miss some typos. I'm sitting less than eight inches from a 24 inch monitor to be able to read text.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sat Oct 2 11:18:41 2021
    On 10/2/2021 2:18 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 2/10/2021 10:54 am, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 9/30/2021 2:43 PM, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by
    lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not
    even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by
    surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable
    input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset. >>> d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a
    surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an
    hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs
    between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors.
    They also checked and verified the grounds three houses in both
    directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and
    load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found
    (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly
    related? - unknown. Comcast replaced our modem and all our TV boxes
    the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart'
    televisions and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the
    following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than
    our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it
    was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    As I understand, surge protectors are useless

    **There. I fixed it for you.

    Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet. :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Rob on Sat Oct 2 11:17:33 2021
    On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:
    Michael Trew<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:
    On 10/1/2021 11:57 AM, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Friday, October 1, 2021 at 12:04:48 AM UTC-4, Trevor Wilson wrote:

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)

    It was, in 1999. Broadband didn't hit this area for another year or so. It was only 3 Gb/second when it did. Now, some parts of town offer 1Gb/second. on Fiber.

    I assume you mean 3 Mb/s broadband. That's what I have via AT&T DSL
    now. The download isn't so bad.. the trouble is the 384K upload.

    Is that a posting from the previous decade that leaked in somehow?

    My DSL is 170Mbps download, 30Mbps upload, and that is considered "slow" here...

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay
    for it. I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
    Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 2 08:39:42 2021
    Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet. :)

    And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Terrell@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Sat Oct 2 11:42:10 2021
    On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:39:44 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
    Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet. :)
    And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

    I recently bid on three cases of Bussman BK1/MOV05131AIA Metal Oxide Varistors on Ebay, I ended up with over 1000 of them
    Another bid was for some NTC Thermistors rated for up to 2A. I have over 100.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Terrell@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Sat Oct 2 11:49:59 2021
    On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay
    for it. I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal. Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can't even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn't
    replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain
    fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Phil Allison on Sun Oct 3 07:05:18 2021
    On 2/10/2021 5:20 pm, Phil Allison wrote:
    Trevor Wilson wrote:
    =================

    I had just moved into this house in 1999 when lightning hit a tree in the Florida Greenbelt.
    It split the tree, and abot the top third fell to the ground.
    That strike took out a brand new 56K modem.

    Lightning happens. :(

    **Wow! 56k. So fast. :-)


    ** I well remember when 56K modems were the " ant's pants".
    Slow jpegs, no video but OK for email & browsing text sites.

    Quite astonishing they did that speed using nothing but one POTS voice circuit down miles of twisted pair.


    **Indeed. I though so, when I bought my first modem. 9600 baud. Very
    neat. I am pretty certain my next modem came from Fry's in LA and was a
    28.8k. When my mate Doug connected to ADSL and got 24Mb/s I was
    gob-smacked. Not too shabby for twisted pair. Since I am 3km from my
    local exchange, the best I could manage was around 12Mb/s.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Michael Terrell on Sat Oct 2 22:10:00 2021
    On 10/2/2021 2:49 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay
    for it. I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
    Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can't even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn't
    replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain
    fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.

    Our lines are even older, but they are overhead. It took the tech
    forever to find a good pair, but I have no issues or noise on the line.
    I also have a new drop into my house, and all new from the demarc inside.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to michael.trew@att.net on Sat Oct 2 20:01:40 2021
    On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:17:33 -0400, Michael Trew
    <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay
    for it.

    If you're on SSI or some form of public assistance, and haven't had Comcast/Xfinity service for 9 months, this might be of interest: <https://www.internetessentials.com>

    I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal. >Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
    Last year, AT&T shut down all the "legacy DSL" accounts and
    sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
    sell me. The available options were Comcast, AT&T U-Verse, Comcast,
    WISP wireless, licensed wireless (Etheric), satellite (Dish/Viasat,
    HughesNet), or 4G cellular, in order of increasing cost. I would have
    gone with Startlink except that I live in a thick forest that blocks
    the signal from the satellites. Since then, I've been changing
    internet and phone service for my customers and I away from AT&T. My
    POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
    and/or cellular. I haven't heard of AT&T "grandfathering" legacy
    ADSL. In my case, it wasn't an option. However, not to worry. AT&T
    will improve after China takes over: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>

    In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
    Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
    (one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
    attached to my POTS home phone line. I considered this acceptable
    because I did most of my work in my former palatial office, where I
    had 20Mbit/sec Comcast business class. However, I closed the office
    Nov 2020 and now need more speed at home.

    Interestingly, we had wildfires and power outages in the area since
    the beginning of last summer. Comcast has backup batteries in their
    pole mounted amplifiers which typically only ran for 2 hrs. AT&T had
    their own power systems at the central offices, branch offices, and
    some ADSL/PairGain/IDSN/T1/etc pedestals. Those would last much
    longer. Since PG&E couldn't supply charger power to the Comcast
    amplifiers, and since Comcast was providing lifeline telephone service
    which required a proper backup, various government agencies threatened
    to investigate. During the last two outages (allegedly caused by
    squirrels) Comcast stayed up for 5 and 8 hours respectively.
    Obviously, something was done to improved the situation, but nobody is providing useful info from either Comcast or PG&E.



    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Terrell@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Sun Oct 3 09:30:01 2021
    On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 10:09:58 PM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 10/2/2021 2:49 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
    On Saturday, October 2, 2021 at 11:17:32 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 10/2/2021 7:23 AM, Rob wrote:

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay >> for it. I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
    Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    The underground phone lines around here are almost 60 years old, and so bad that I can't even get usable landline phone service. That was prior to Hurricane Irma. A pedestal at the end of my street was smashed by a broken power pole, and it wasn't
    replaced. Instead, it was just removed so the line is completely useless. No broadband, after I had an open neutral on my electric service, so I had to go to Hughesnet for a barely usable connection. It is on kA band, at 55 GHz and it has severe rain
    fade. It also has so much latency that some websites constantly time out.
    Our lines are even older, but they are overhead. It took the tech
    forever to find a good pair, but I have no issues or noise on the line.
    I also have a new drop into my house, and all new from the demarc inside.

    Overhead lines fare better than first generation cables. There are areas in the ounty that have over 75% of the pairs failing, or open.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Tue Oct 5 00:01:18 2021
    On 10/2/2021 11:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:17:33 -0400, Michael Trew
    <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay
    for it.

    If you're on SSI or some form of public assistance, and haven't had Comcast/Xfinity service for 9 months, this might be of interest: <https://www.internetessentials.com>

    No public assistance, but thank you. I am not working many hours now,
    but even if I easily had the money, I'm cheap.. heh

    I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
    Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
    Last year, AT&T shut down all the "legacy DSL" accounts and
    sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
    sell me.

    What region is this? I've heard several people tell me, especially out
    west, that AT&T simply shut down the old ADSL out there, and resellers
    and all couldn't sell it. I live in Ohio, former Ameritech region.

    POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
    and/or cellular. I haven't heard of AT&T "grandfathering" legacy
    ADSL. In my case, it wasn't an option.

    I like my POTS line.. if it ever become unreliable, or the price keeps
    creeping up to an unreasonable level, I'll probably drop it.

    See my post linked here when I got the bill notice; several other people noticed this as a company-wide decision. I'm still using it at the
    moment.. as I was told, I can't move, change speed, etc.. but it still
    works as of now.

    https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32848850-DSL-is-officially-grandfathered-Get-orders-in-BEFORE-October

    In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
    Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
    (one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
    attached to my POTS home phone line.

    "Real speed" is about 2 down on any given test. It seems to work OK on
    one device, streaming, browsing on one or two others. I doubt it could
    do much more.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to michael.trew@att.net on Tue Oct 5 10:03:39 2021
    On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 00:01:18 -0400, Michael Trew
    <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

    I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
    Last year, AT&T shut down all the "legacy DSL" accounts and
    sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
    sell me.

    What region is this? I've heard several people tell me, especially out
    west, that AT&T simply shut down the old ADSL out there, and resellers
    and all couldn't sell it. I live in Ohio, former Ameritech region.

    USA, left coast, California, Santa Cruz county. I have not bothered
    to investigate the extent of the "legacy DSL" shutdown. I think it's
    national. Note the headline here:
    <https://www.att.com/internet/dsl/>
    "AT&T no longer offers DSL service"
    Clicking further down the page, it offers me up to 5 Mbit/sec service
    for $45/month plus taxes, equipment fees, hidden charges, and
    installation if needed. Why am I not thrilled?

    POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
    and/or cellular. I haven't heard of AT&T "grandfathering" legacy
    ADSL. In my case, it wasn't an option.

    I like my POTS line.. if it ever become unreliable, or the price keeps >creeping up to an unreasonable level, I'll probably drop it.

    I also like POTS phone lines, mostly because they're far more reliable
    than anything that goes via the internet or cellular data. However,
    my latest AT&T POTS bill was $41.25 for flat rate, no long distance. I originate or receive perhaps 50 fairly short, non-telemarketting,
    phone calls per month making my cost about $0.80 per valid call.
    Meanwhile, I'm also paying $75/year for my former office VoIP phone
    from:
    <https://www.future-nine.com/plans.html> (Bare Essentials plan)
    with 2000 incoming minutes and 250 outgoing minutes included. That's
    a net savings of about $420/year. I can also switch to all cellular
    (cutting the cord) for which I alread pay $28/month.

    See my post linked here when I got the bill notice; several other people >noticed this as a company-wide decision. I'm still using it at the
    moment.. as I was told, I can't move, change speed, etc.. but it still
    works as of now.

    https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32848850-DSL-is-officially-grandfathered-Get-orders-in-BEFORE-October

    Yep. That's not what I received from my ISP. AT&T will continue to
    service legacy accounts for their AT&T customers, but not for the
    CLEC's, who have equipment located in their central offices and are
    leasing AT&T copper phone lines.

    In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
    Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
    (one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
    attached to my POTS home phone line.

    "Real speed" is about 2 down on any given test. It seems to work OK on
    one device, streaming, browsing on one or two others. I doubt it could
    do much more.

    Higher speeds (bandwidth) to have their advantages. For me, it was
    the ability to do more than one thing online at a time. I can now
    download a bloated Microsoft update, stream a movie (in 720p because I
    have a small TV and 1080p would be a waste of bandwidth), check my
    email, talk on VoIP or Zoom, etc all at the same time. 56Mbits/sec
    download, 6Mbits/sec upload. I've tried to overload the bandwidth and
    found it somewhat difficult because most (not all) of the streaming
    and video programs have some form of adaptive bandwidth management.
    Also, I use my routers QoS (quality of service also known as bandwidth management) settings to all the real-time stuff (mostly VoIP) to have
    priority. If you only do one thing at a time online, 2Mbits/sec might
    be adequate. 1.5Mbits/sec was adequate for me for about 20 years.
    However, if you're into multitasking your life, more bandwidth is a
    necessity.

    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ralph Mowery@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 5 13:42:12 2021
    In article <lpuolg948p5oqen6jm8ddvsl9cd4t3l5m5@4ax.com>,
    jeffl@cruzio.com says...

    I also like POTS phone lines, mostly because they're far more reliable
    than anything that goes via the internet or cellular data. However,
    my latest AT&T POTS bill was $41.25 for flat rate, no long distance. I originate or receive perhaps 50 fairly short, non-telemarketting,
    phone calls per month making my cost about $0.80 per valid call.
    Meanwhile, I'm also paying $75/year for my former office VoIP phone
    from:
    <https://www.future-nine.com/plans.html> (Bare Essentials plan)
    with 2000 incoming minutes and 250 outgoing minutes included. That's
    a net savings of about $420/year. I can also switch to all cellular
    (cutting the cord) for which I alread pay $28/month.




    I like the POTS but my bill was similar to yours for just basic service.
    I Switched to internet phone and the internet together is $ 99 per month
    for the basic 200 speed download. I don't upload very much so do not
    care how how fast that is but do get 10 speed upload. With the
    internnet phone I get lots of what would be extra on the POTS like
    caller ID and long distance. I can even have it send the incomming call
    to my cell phone if I do not answer the home phone.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Fri Oct 8 18:39:10 2021
    On 10/5/2021 1:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    I also like POTS phone lines, mostly because they're far more reliable
    than anything that goes via the internet or cellular data. However,
    my latest AT&T POTS bill was $41.25 for flat rate, no long distance. I originate or receive perhaps 50 fairly short, non-telemarketting,
    phone calls per month making my cost about $0.80 per valid call.

    After all taxes/fees, that's about what my unlimited local flat rate
    line costs. I pay about $5 per month, give/take to a third party LD
    service (TCI LD), for approximately 60 minutes of LD per month. 5
    cents/min domestic plus tax. I probably make/receive more calls than
    that. I hardly, if ever, use my cell. It's 10 cents per minute (but
    nothing more), with a minimum of $10/year, so I make a point of not
    using it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Trevor Wilson on Sun Oct 10 21:49:05 2021
    On 10/2/2021 12:18 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
    On 2/10/2021 10:54 am, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 9/30/2021 2:43 PM, Peter W. wrote:
    A week ago, today (Thursday), our house was struck directly by
    lightning right about noontime. interesting that the lights did not
    even blink, however, there were consequences:
    a) We lost our cable-modem and all three TV boxes.
    b) We lost two older televisions - both protected by
    surge-protectors, but we expect that the damage was via the cable
    input, not the electrical input.
    c) We lost four (4) local GFI receptacles - popped, but would not reset. >>> d) We lost all our Panasonic wireless phones - base and satellites.
    e) We lost the (Dell) computer power-supply brick - on a
    surge-protected UPS, go figure. But not the computer, or the printer.

    Our Utility (PECO) visited the following day, and spent nearly an
    hour at our house, checking the pole-pig, and remaking the bugs
    between the pig and the house for us and for our nearest neighbors.
    They also checked and verified the grounds three houses in both
    directions. Our electrician spent two hours checking the box and
    load-testing, as well as replacing the damaged GFI devices. He found
    (and replaced) one additional receptacle with a bad ground. Directly
    related? - unknown. Comcast replaced our modem and all our TV boxes
    the following morning, and Amazon supplied us with two new 'smart'
    televisions  and phones for very nearly pocket-change, also by the
    following day.

    All-in, the "spend" was well under US$1,000, considerably less than
    our insurance deductible. And no damage to the house at all. As it
    was built in 1890, I suspect that it has survived far worse.

    Stuff happens.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    As I understand, surge protectors are useless

    **There. I fixed it for you.

    Excellent information on surges and surge protection is <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>
    "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
    for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
    communication circuits" published by the IEEE

    A much simper guide is: <https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication960-6.pdf> "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
    appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
    Standards and Technology

    Both say surge protectors (plug-in and service) are effective. But, as
    clearly explained in the IEEE guide, for plug-in protectors all
    interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector and external connections, like coax also must go through the protector.
    Peter guessed that was the problem. A common cause of damage is high
    voltage between signal and power wires. As explained in the IEEE surge
    guide (starting page 30) plug-in protectors work primarily by limiting
    the voltage from each wire to the ground at the protector. To do that
    all wires must go through the protector.

    Service entry protection can also work. Again, the voltage on ALL wires entering the building is clamped to a common ground with SHORT wires.

    In both cases the voltage of "ground" and the wires may lift thousands
    of volts from the earth potential 100 ft distant, but the voltage
    between the wires is safe for the connected equipment.

    -----
    The surge expert at the NIST looked at the maximum surge that has any reasonable probability of occurring (US). It is 10,000A per power
    service wire. This is based on a 100,000A lightning strike to an
    adjacent utility pole in typical US urban overhead distribution. The
    IEEE surge guide has recommendations for surge amp ratings on page 18.
    Ratings far higher than 10,000A per wire mean the protector will have a
    long life.

    -----
    The NIST surge expert also investigated how much energy can reach the
    MOVs (the major voltage limiter) in a plug-in protector (with no service
    panel suppressor). Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and surges
    coming in on power wires were up to 10,000A (which is the maximum
    probable surge, as above). The maximum energy was a surprisingly small
    35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors
    with much higher ratings are readily available. (This is US, and there
    are a couple reasons that may be different. One is the neutral-ground
    bond in services. The other is arc-over described below.)

    There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V
    there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After
    the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps
    most of the incoming surge energy to earth

    The second reason is the impedance of the branch circuit wiring. A surge
    is a very short event. That means the current components are relatively
    high frequency. That means the wire inductance is more important than
    the resistance. The branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current
    to the MOVs, which greatly limits the energy that can make it to the MOVs.

    The maximum was not even for the largest surges. The largest surges
    forced the voltage at the service above 6kV and arc-over. For some
    smaller surges (with the shortest branch circuits) the MOV at the
    protector held the voltage at the panel below 6kV and there was no
    arc-over. One of them resulted in the maximum energy of 35 joules. The
    voltage at the panel was higher than the stable arc-over voltage but
    lower than 6kV

    -----
    Antennas can be protected from a direct strike - hams do it. It involves
    much more than most people are interest in doing. Protecting a building
    from a direct strike requires a lightning rod system.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike S@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Wed Oct 13 17:56:58 2021
    On 10/2/2021 8:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:17:33 -0400, Michael Trew
    <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

    Comcast offers up to gigabit service in my area, but I don't care to pay
    for it.

    If you're on SSI or some form of public assistance, and haven't had Comcast/Xfinity service for 9 months, this might be of interest: <https://www.internetessentials.com>

    I haven't canceled the DSL because AT&T has grandfathered it..
    if I shut it down, I can't ever get it back, and I have a good deal.
    Streaming on one device works OK, and you certainly don't need any
    faster for e-mail or Usenet, unless uploading large attachments.

    I was on Cruzio 1.5Mbit/sec ADSL since 1999. They used AT&T lines.
    Last year, AT&T shut down all the "legacy DSL" accounts and
    sub-contracts, which included me. Cruzio had nothing that they could
    sell me. The available options were Comcast, AT&T U-Verse, Comcast,
    WISP wireless, licensed wireless (Etheric), satellite (Dish/Viasat, HughesNet), or 4G cellular, in order of increasing cost. I would have
    gone with Startlink except that I live in a thick forest that blocks
    the signal from the satellites. Since then, I've been changing
    internet and phone service for my customers and I away from AT&T. My
    POTS home phone will shortly be the last to go after I switch to VoIP
    and/or cellular. I haven't heard of AT&T "grandfathering" legacy
    ADSL. In my case, it wasn't an option. However, not to worry. AT&T
    will improve after China takes over: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>

    In my experience, Netlfix and YouTube were useable at 1.5MBits/sec.
    Most of the other streaming services and channels were useless. VoIP
    (one line) was fine, but rather redundant because my ADSL line was
    attached to my POTS home phone line. I considered this acceptable
    because I did most of my work in my former palatial office, where I
    had 20Mbit/sec Comcast business class. However, I closed the office
    Nov 2020 and now need more speed at home.

    Interestingly, we had wildfires and power outages in the area since
    the beginning of last summer. Comcast has backup batteries in their
    pole mounted amplifiers which typically only ran for 2 hrs. AT&T had
    their own power systems at the central offices, branch offices, and
    some ADSL/PairGain/IDSN/T1/etc pedestals. Those would last much
    longer. Since PG&E couldn't supply charger power to the Comcast
    amplifiers, and since Comcast was providing lifeline telephone service
    which required a proper backup, various government agencies threatened
    to investigate. During the last two outages (allegedly caused by
    squirrels) Comcast stayed up for 5 and 8 hours respectively.
    Obviously, something was done to improved the situation, but nobody is providing useful info from either Comcast or PG&E.

    I don't know if or when it will be provided in your area, but the Cruzio
    fiber is great, both speed and latency.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike S@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Wed Oct 13 17:50:41 2021
    On 10/2/2021 8:39 AM, Peter W. wrote:
    Well, they are useful for connecting multiple appliances to one outlet. :)

    And they protected the plasma TV and two quite nice audio systems without incident. The one on the TV has (had) an indicator stating that it must be replaced visible after the strike. Yes, it has been replaced.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    What make and model were they Peter?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 14 04:44:18 2021
    What make and model were they Peter?,

    Cyberpower is the make. The unit in place was from 2009, we replaced it with a more recent model, of course.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to Mike S on Thu Oct 14 09:12:28 2021
    On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:56:58 -0700, Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> wrote:

    I don't know if or when it will be provided in your area, but the Cruzio >fiber is great, both speed and latency.

    I could only dream. I have friends and customers that have Cruzio
    fiber or wireless. They love it. I've talked to them about the
    possibility. Cruzio seems to be concentrating on high density and
    urban areas, where the number of users per mile of fiber is much
    higher than in the semi-rural areas of SLV (San Lorenzo Valley). In
    the FAQ, it proclaims:
    <https://santacruzfiber.com/faq>
    What Neighborhood will get built first?
    High rates of signups will move neighborhoods up in priority.
    Other factors will matter, too, including how close a
    neighborhood is to the fiber hub, and how many barriers are
    in the way. The best way to get your neighborhood ahead in
    priority is to get lots of people to tell us theyre interested.
    That's unlikely to happen in SLV. Even in the denser areas near SCZ,
    fiber service is spotty:
    <https://santacruzfiber.com/blog/rollout-progress>
    I don't have a current map showing areas covered, but currently it's
    downtown SCZ, Scotts Valley, several trailer parks in Live Oak, and Watsonville:
    <https://santacruzfiber.com/watsonville>
    I probably missed a few areas, but currently nothing in SLV (Felton,
    Ben Lomond, and Boulder Creek).


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike S@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Thu Oct 14 19:01:10 2021
    On 10/14/2021 9:12 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:56:58 -0700, Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> wrote:

    I don't know if or when it will be provided in your area, but the Cruzio
    fiber is great, both speed and latency.

    I could only dream. I have friends and customers that have Cruzio
    fiber or wireless. They love it. I've talked to them about the
    possibility. Cruzio seems to be concentrating on high density and
    urban areas, where the number of users per mile of fiber is much
    higher than in the semi-rural areas of SLV (San Lorenzo Valley). In
    the FAQ, it proclaims:
    <https://santacruzfiber.com/faq>
    What Neighborhood will get built first?
    High rates of signups will move neighborhoods up in priority.
    Other factors will matter, too, including how close a
    neighborhood is to the fiber hub, and how many barriers are
    in the way. The best way to get your neighborhood ahead in
    priority is to get lots of people to tell us they’re interested.
    That's unlikely to happen in SLV. Even in the denser areas near SCZ,
    fiber service is spotty:
    <https://santacruzfiber.com/blog/rollout-progress>
    I don't have a current map showing areas covered, but currently it's
    downtown SCZ, Scotts Valley, several trailer parks in Live Oak, and Watsonville:
    <https://santacruzfiber.com/watsonville>
    I probably missed a few areas, but currently nothing in SLV (Felton,
    Ben Lomond, and Boulder Creek).

    Sorry to hear that it's not an option. I know of one case where a point
    to point wireless link with some decent radios using parabolic antennas
    shared high speed internet and it worked well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike S@21:1/5 to Peter W. on Thu Oct 14 19:01:20 2021
    On 10/14/2021 4:44 AM, Peter W. wrote:
    What make and model were they Peter?,

    Cyberpower is the make. The unit in place was from 2009, we replaced it with a more recent model, of course.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    Thanks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 24 08:50:53 2021
    One more thing: Every single string-filament LED in the house got fried - those that were in the chandeliers, not the spares, that is. As we found out yesterday when the kids and grands were over for dinner. No small thing, as there are 26 in the dining
    room, 16 in the center-hall, and 12 in the library.

    They look like this - in various wattages: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/7175z+CxhXL._AC_SL1420_.jpg

    How, I do not know, unless the strike came down the neutral as well as the cable - not impossible. They were all turned off, of course.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to peterwieck33@gmail.com on Sun Oct 24 10:36:19 2021
    On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 08:50:53 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

    One more thing: Every single string-filament LED in the house got fried - those that were in the chandeliers, not the spares, that is. As we found out yesterday when the kids and grands were over for dinner. No small thing, as there are 26 in the
    dining room, 16 in the center-hall, and 12 in the library.

    They look like this - in various wattages: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/7175z+CxhXL._AC_SL1420_.jpg

    How, I do not know, unless the strike came down the neutral as well as the cable - not impossible. They were all turned off, of course.

    Induction perhaps? Those LED "filaments" form a 1 turn loop of 60
    LED's in series. A lightning strike nearby could create enough of a
    field to blow out the bulbs. In a 60 LED series string (E12), only
    one LED needs to open in order to kill the bulb. The chandeliers have
    all the bulbs in parallel, so they all get the same overvoltage spike.
    The loop is typically completed by a light dimmer with MOV overvoltage protection, but I suspect it isn't necessary if the house wiring to
    the chandelier is long enough.

    Just a guess because we don't get much lightning on the left coast so
    I have little experience with lightning.

    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 25 10:53:28 2021
    Induction perhaps? Those LED "filaments" form a 1 turn loop of 60
    LED's in series. A lightning strike nearby could create enough of a
    field to blow out the bulbs.

    I would agree with this, but for the fact that the failure modes were not uniform.

    Some began blinking at turn-on.
    Two cracked the glass envelope - neatly at the base.
    Some just never lit.
    Some got intermittent dark spots on the filaments.

    My best guess is that there is some sort of driver element(s) in the base that were affected.... When I am back on my feet, reliably, I will slit one with the Dremel and see what gives.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to peterwieck33@gmail.com on Mon Oct 25 14:54:10 2021
    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:53:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:


    Induction perhaps? Those LED "filaments" form a 1 turn loop of 60
    LED's in series. A lightning strike nearby could create enough of a
    field to blow out the bulbs.

    I would agree with this, but for the fact that the failure modes were not uniform.

    LED's and diodes usually fail by shorting out. Once one diode is
    shorted, the current increases causing the next diode in the string to
    short. This continues until the current is high enough the blow up a
    thin wire or trace, usually in the base. If you have a microscope
    handy, you can possibly visually distinguish between the good and
    shorted diodes.

    Some began blinking at turn-on.

    Current regulator device or circuit might be oscillating. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament>
    "The simple capacitive or resistive dropper power supply used by some
    cheaper bulbs will cause some flickering..."

    Two cracked the glass envelope - neatly at the base.

    The glass envelope is sealed. Sudden rise in internal gas pressure
    might cause the envelope to explode.

    Some just never lit.

    Simulated a fuse?

    Some got intermittent dark spots on the filaments.

    I have some bad guesses for what caused that. Maybe later.

    My best guess is that there is some sort of driver element(s) in the base that were affected.... When I am back on my feet, reliably, I will slit one with the Dremel and see what gives.

    Autopsy. Some design details here: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament#Design> <https://patents.google.com/patent/US8400051>

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA
    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike S@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Mon Oct 25 21:09:21 2021
    On 10/25/2021 2:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:53:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
    <peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:


    Induction perhaps? Those LED "filaments" form a 1 turn loop of 60
    LED's in series. A lightning strike nearby could create enough of a
    field to blow out the bulbs.

    I would agree with this, but for the fact that the failure modes were not uniform.

    LED's and diodes usually fail by shorting out. Once one diode is
    shorted, the current increases causing the next diode in the string to
    short. This continues until the current is high enough the blow up a
    thin wire or trace, usually in the base. If you have a microscope
    handy, you can possibly visually distinguish between the good and
    shorted diodes.

    Some began blinking at turn-on.

    Current regulator device or circuit might be oscillating. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament>
    "The simple capacitive or resistive dropper power supply used by some
    cheaper bulbs will cause some flickering..."

    Two cracked the glass envelope - neatly at the base.

    The glass envelope is sealed. Sudden rise in internal gas pressure
    might cause the envelope to explode.

    Some just never lit.

    Simulated a fuse?

    Some got intermittent dark spots on the filaments.

    I have some bad guesses for what caused that. Maybe later.

    My best guess is that there is some sort of driver element(s) in the base that were affected.... When I am back on my feet, reliably, I will slit one with the Dremel and see what gives.

    Autopsy. Some design details here: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament#Design> <https://patents.google.com/patent/US8400051>

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

    Interesting discussion, I'm looking fwd to followups. I looked around
    online a little but and nobody I read seemed to think a lightning
    arrestor on the neutral would be of any use, but I don't know myself,
    here to learn.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to Mike S on Mon Oct 25 21:53:44 2021
    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:09:21 -0700, Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Interesting discussion, I'm looking fwd to followups. I looked around
    online a little but and nobody I read seemed to think a lightning
    arrestor on the neutral would be of any use, but I don't know myself,
    here to learn.

    Where would you ground or connect such a lightning arrestor? The
    neutral (white) wire is always connected to earth (green) ground at
    the main electrical panel. Installing a lightning arrestor across
    ground to ground is not going to do anything useful.

    More than you probably wanted to know on electrical grounding: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral>


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KenW@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 26 06:30:16 2021
    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:53:44 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:09:21 -0700, Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Interesting discussion, I'm looking fwd to followups. I looked around >>online a little but and nobody I read seemed to think a lightning
    arrestor on the neutral would be of any use, but I don't know myself,
    here to learn.

    Where would you ground or connect such a lightning arrestor? The
    neutral (white) wire is always connected to earth (green) ground at
    the main electrical panel. Installing a lightning arrestor across
    ground to ground is not going to do anything useful.

    More than you probably wanted to know on electrical grounding: ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral>
    In my first home an arrestor ? was installed in the electric panel
    when I updated to 200amp service. 30 +/- years ago.


    KenW

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike S@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Fri Oct 29 21:59:13 2021
    On 10/25/2021 9:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:09:21 -0700, Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Interesting discussion, I'm looking fwd to followups. I looked around
    online a little but and nobody I read seemed to think a lightning
    arrestor on the neutral would be of any use, but I don't know myself,
    here to learn.

    Where would you ground or connect such a lightning arrestor? The
    neutral (white) wire is always connected to earth (green) ground at
    the main electrical panel. Installing a lightning arrestor across
    ground to ground is not going to do anything useful.

    More than you probably wanted to know on electrical grounding: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral>

    Thanks, that was a good read, I never knew the "difference".

    This was interesting,

    "The current drawn by non-linear loads, such as fluorescent & HID
    lighting and electronic equipment containing switching power supplies,
    often contains harmonics. Triplen harmonic currents (odd multiples of
    the third harmonic) are additive, resulting in more current in the
    shared neutral conductor than in any of the phase conductors. In the
    absolute worst case, the current in the shared neutral conductor can be
    triple that in each phase conductor."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bud--@21:1/5 to Mike S on Wed Nov 3 22:00:10 2021
    On 10/29/2021 10:59 PM, Mike S wrote:
    On 10/25/2021 9:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:09:21 -0700, Mike S <mscir@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Interesting discussion, I'm looking fwd to followups. I looked around
    online a little but and nobody I read seemed to think a lightning
    arrestor on the neutral would be of any use, but I don't know myself,
    here to learn.

    Where would you ground or connect such a lightning arrestor?  The
    neutral (white) wire is always connected to earth (green) ground at
    the main electrical panel.  Installing a lightning arrestor across
    ground to ground is not going to do anything useful.

    More than you probably wanted to know on electrical grounding:
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral>

    Thanks, that was a good read, I never knew the "difference".

    This was interesting,

    "The current drawn by non-linear loads, such as fluorescent & HID
    lighting and electronic equipment containing switching power supplies,
    often contains harmonics. Triplen harmonic currents (odd multiples of
    the third harmonic) are additive, resulting in more current in the
    shared neutral conductor than in any of the phase conductors. In the
    absolute worst case, the current in the shared neutral conductor can be triple that in each phase conductor."


    Triplens add on 3-phase.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)