• Re: Can somone explain WHY positive first when jumping a car battery?

    From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 18 07:46:44 2023
    Following up on Wannabe....

    I am indirectly responsible for the care-and-feeding of a lab-grade RO/DI water system serving a 600,000 research facility and vivarium. It occupies over 300 square feet of footprint, runs 24/7 and will produce hundreds of gallons per hour, if needed.
    Points:

    Lab Grade RO/DI water is very nearly mineral and salt-free, free of dissolved gasses, metals and other trace elements or contaminants, and very nearly unreactive. Meaning that it is nearly impossible to hydrolyze (break down into H2 & O2 by running a
    current through it). There are five separate steps in making the stuff, from City Water to Product, including pre-and-post filtration, softening, and going through the De-Ionization and Osmosis processes. This is NOT distilled water, and it is created by
    a far more complex process than simply boiling water.

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

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  • From Charles Lucas@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 18 09:05:46 2023
    One of the reasons why the specific order is indicated (that is "Positive First" is attached
    and then "Negative Last" is attached when connecting a car battery- and the when
    disconnecting a battery, the Negative is disconnected first, followed by the positive
    last- vice versa when connecting and disconnecting as just explained in this order)
    for a few reasons.

    First of all, with DC, it is direct current. By doing as instructed with the negative terminal,
    you minimize or eliminate electrostatic discharge (which can be harder on other components),
    the memory circuits on either a car or other device are "cleared" or re-initialized in this way,
    and it minimizes the risk of a short circuit (or the positive and negative "touching") when this
    is done. So, it saves your components (and your battery too).

    Good Luck.

    Charles Lucas

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  • From Charles Lucas@21:1/5 to Xeno on Sat Jan 28 09:19:35 2023
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 9:33:43 PM UTC-6, Xeno wrote:
    On 18/1/2023 2:35 pm, mike wrote:



    Starters can draw 150 - 500 amps of 12 volt DC current. If the negative
    leads aren't making a good connection, the car bumpers might make the
    perfect substitute. In the days of metal bumpers, having them weld
    themselves together is probably not the best outcome. With plastic
    bumpers, not so much of an *electrical* issue but you'll be scuffing the paint on them.

    Then they said positive first.
    Why?


    Although the thread is rather lengthy and has been virtually exhausted,
    I am going to venture out an explanation here.

    Prevents Sparking or Arcing if in the event wires did touch. More energy
    passes from the negative (anode) to the positive (cathode) side, due to
    the way electrons flow, which create a potential for arcing on the positive side. So, you go to the "stronger" or more energetic side first, then you
    apply either the chassis or earth ground. It also puts less strain on the stator and rotor on the electric motor in your alternator.

    Follow or look up this enclosed link below. It gives details on arcing here.

    https://getjerry.com/questions/what-are-some-reasons-why-my-car-battery-sparks-when-connecting-the-charger



    If you need to constantly add water, I suggest you check your charge
    output. Your battery is being overcharged and is gassing the battery.
    Doesn't do a lot for the longevity of the battery either.

    And how do you know how much to add?
    They say add water to the "splash plate" but what is that?

    As long as the electrolyte covers the top of the cell plates, all will
    be well.

    Accordingly, the batteries (depending upon their chemical composition
    and make up) have to maintain the correct specific gravity. Most people
    do not know about this, but it ties in when a chemical reaction is actually created through the EMF of the battery during operation drawing from
    each of those cells.

    They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
    Isn't it more than that?

    Nope. The electrical system of a car is *14 Volts*, not 12V as is
    commonly believed. You need that voltage to charge a 12 Volt battery at
    its nominal 12.6 Volts. After charging, the battery will show more than
    that but it is only a *surface charge* and will quickly dissipate back
    to 12.6. What people don't realise is that the battery is *only* for
    starting the engine. Whilst ever the engine is running, the car
    electrical system is running off the alternator - hence a 14 Volt
    system. NB, alternators typically output between 13.8 and 14.2 Volts.

    Actually, I heard about 13.5 to 13.8 Volts is common for vehicles
    and traditional automobiles with regular gasoline engines. Diesel
    uses up to 14.2 volts because
    more power is generated through the glow plugs (and with diesel,
    the pre-firing). I am not a diesel expert, but that is what I have heard.

    Any less and the battery may not fully charge, any more and you will get gassing.

    They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
    Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

    Ask yourself what heating water does to its volume and you'll have
    answered that question.

    And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

    The reaction will be slightly different chemically, but not by much, if the specific gravity remains intact. I try to get distilled because there is by nature less sediment in the water which reduces wear on the internal
    chambers or cells in the battery and less likelihood of calcification.

    Good Luck. Hope this helps.

    Charles Lucas

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  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Charles Lucas on Sat Jan 28 11:42:18 2023
    On 1/28/2023 9:19 AM, Charles Lucas wrote:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 9:33:43 PM UTC-6, Xeno wrote:
    On 18/1/2023 2:35 pm, mike wrote:



    Starters can draw 150 - 500 amps of 12 volt DC current. If the negative
    leads aren't making a good connection, the car bumpers might make the
    perfect substitute. In the days of metal bumpers, having them weld
    themselves together is probably not the best outcome. With plastic
    bumpers, not so much of an *electrical* issue but you'll be scuffing the
    paint on them.

    Then they said positive first.
    Why?


    Although the thread is rather lengthy and has been virtually exhausted,
    I am going to venture out an explanation here.

    Prevents Sparking or Arcing if in the event wires did touch. More energy passes from the negative (anode) to the positive (cathode) side, due to
    the way electrons flow, which create a potential for arcing on the positive side. So, you go to the "stronger" or more energetic side first, then you apply either the chassis or earth ground. It also puts less strain on the stator and rotor on the electric motor in your alternator.

    Follow or look up this enclosed link below. It gives details on arcing here.

    https://getjerry.com/questions/what-are-some-reasons-why-my-car-battery-sparks-when-connecting-the-charger

    Which says NOTHING to support your silly claim above.

    Obviously, every time you connect anything to a car battery, there is a positive and a negative side to that connection as you do.

    Your silly reference claims there is a spark because you left something
    on (which on modern cars is always true) but ignores that you are
    connecting a charge battery with an uncharged one.

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  • From Charles Lucas@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 30 09:34:27 2023

    Your silly reference claims there is a spark because you left something
    on (which on modern cars is always true) but ignores that you are
    connecting a charge battery with an uncharged one.

    OK, so I missed that. Here's one that does address the dead battery you
    would be connecting the vehicle to. My apologies for missing the dead
    one that is not charged. Link is below:

    https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

    There are similar articles to connecting batteries to capacitors (which is basically what a
    battery essentially is), although we're dealing with DC circuits.

    Good Luck.

    Charles Lucas

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  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Charles Lucas on Mon Jan 30 10:02:56 2023
    On 1/30/2023 9:34 AM, Charles Lucas wrote:


    Your silly reference claims there is a spark because you left something
    on (which on modern cars is always true) but ignores that you are
    connecting a charge battery with an uncharged one.

    OK, so I missed that. Here's one that does address the dead battery you
    would be connecting the vehicle to. My apologies for missing the dead
    one that is not charged. Link is below:

    https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

    There are similar articles to connecting batteries to capacitors (which is basically what a
    battery essentially is), although we're dealing with DC circuits.

    Good Luck.

    Charles Lucas


    That article tells you to jump start a car, then

    "If the battery reads below 12 volts, it’s considered “discharged.” Driving around can’t revive a battery below 12 volts, and attempting to
    do so might damage the alternator."

    If that is true, what has worked for practically everyone that has ever
    jumped a significantly discharged battery has risked damaging the
    alternator of the car used to jump it. Ever hear of that happening
    without reversing the cables?

    And driving around has worked fine for millions of people with battery
    drained before jumping after they left the lights on.

    Parts dealers web pages are highly "sales biased", like the one I saw
    that claimed that wiper blades should be replaced every 6 months.

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  • From Peter W.@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 30 11:41:34 2023
    This is the 94th post on the basics of separating fly-shit from pepper - oops, how to jump-start a vehicle. What we have learned:
    a) this venue is proof-positive that common sense is rarer than an ethical politician or a moral evangelical preacher.
    b) that this venue exists to give the most impractical, obscure, possibly dangerous advice to the mostly lazy, ignorant or otherwise challenged individuals who appear to look for and cherish such device rather than seeking it for themselves, or reaching
    out to organizations that actually might know.
    c) that if there is an opinion - fact-based or not - there will be an equal-and-opposite opinion - fact-based or not.
    d) that the posters in this venue as exemplified by the above should not be exposed to anything sharper than a rubber spoon, more powerful than a D-size battery (large enough to make swallowing it difficult), or requiring reading or understanding
    directions, written or otherwise.

    https://magazine.northeast.aaa.com/daily/life/cars-trucks/jumping-a-car-battery/

    Now, how hard was that?

    Peter Wieck
    Melrose Park, PA

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  • From Charles Lucas@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Sat Feb 4 12:06:14 2023
    On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:49:25 PM UTC-6, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 1/30/2023 16:42, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2023-01-19 02:01, Rod Speed wrote:
    On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 04:54:10 +1100, John Robertson <j...@flippers.com>
    wrote:

    After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is
    AWAY FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
    unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.

    No, because the battery doesn't gas unless it is being charged when
    fully charged already and that won't be happening with either battery.

    The "bad" battery will start charging when connected, and there will be
    no current limiting.
    The last time I had a really flat battery, and jumping it didn't work (perhaps the cables weren't heavy enough gauge), I started it with
    another battery installed (cables semi-tight pushed-on)... then with the alternator keeping it going, I disconnected that battery, and hooked up
    the flat battery. You could instantly hear the engine bog down from the alternator kicking into high-gear. This was a 1960's car, BTW, with a
    modern 12v battery. Perhaps this isn't the hottest idea with a new car
    using expensive electronics, but it works fine on older rigs with a good alternator.

    Remember, this can be done only if what this man said is true and/or the voltage regulation circuitry can handle it. I would try using a load resistor Run to ground at the base of the circuit to handle the load and to prevent overload. The resistor should be of adequate size (1/4 watt at so many
    mega ohms) to absorb the energy.

    Good Luck,

    Charles Lucas

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