put me out of a job, then I have no grounds for complaints. If I am conscious of the differences, then my neighbor and I have an obligation to support each other to our mutual benefit.You mean a usable tool or device at a low price.I don't, no.
https://www.amazon.com/Channellock-349-Premium-Wiremaster-Linesman/dp/B00004SBD5
https://www.harborfreight.com/9-in-linesman-pliers-63820.html
The former keeps a small town in western Pennsylvania vibrant with hundreds of well-paying jobs. The steel is sourced from the US and the profits remain in the US.
The latter keeps a sweatshop in China working with hundreds of poorly paying jobs. The steel is sourced from China, and the profits remain in China.
Yes, there is a cost difference. The first time one cuts a 'live wire' with either tool, the result of that cost difference will be instantly manifest. Bit of advice - do not try that with the HF option.
Tools have a purpose, true. And often the need drives the choices, true. But:
One choice provides my neighbor with a job so that he/she may support a family and maintain a life. The other does not. If I am not conscious of the difference between the two options, and should it come to pass that my neighbor's choices and options
Sometimes, there is no choice, and sometimes one is forced to purchase from China, or similar Pacific Rim sources. LCD screens (invented in Pittsburgh, PA, USA) come to mind. And many similar items. But where there is a choice, at the very least, makethat choice with full awareness of the consequences.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
I was against import fees, but if we could use them to slow down China,
I'm all for them, but I'm afraid we are 20 years late to that party.
it's not all that easy to find an American made tool.
Can a 12VDC 500ma wall wart trickle charge a car battery or must the voltage >to charge a car battery be greater than 12VDC (like 14 or 15 volts?).
Can a well regulated 12VDC still charge (over a long time) a car battery?
Or must it be over 13.5 volts to (eventually) accomplish full charging?
5. Today's overpriced car batteries cost about $100. Would you
really risk trashing a $100 battery because you don't want to use a
proper battery charger? I wouldn't. Unfortunately, a charger with a
fancy label is not a guarantee of quality. All these chargers were
defective in some manner. They also killed two rather expensive
stationary batteries at a radio site: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/dead-battery-chargers.jpg>
Spend some time and do some reading on chargers.
6. If you're looking for a "battery maintainer", I suggest you check
what is being offered for boating. They tend to be better built, be
better designed, and unfortunately cost most, than the common
automotive and home user variety. RV and recreational maintainers are
in between.
<https://www.westmarine.com/mounted-battery-chargers> <https://www.westmarine.com/portable-chargers>
If you don't like the prices, remind yourself what a new battery might
cost if your charger tries to kill it.
Ralph Mowery wrote:
=================
>
Unless they are regulated many of the 12 volt wall warts put out over 12
volts. It may not charge a car battery very much if it is one of the
unregulated ones ,but will maintain the charge.
** Un-regulated ( transformer) AC to DC adaptors were banned in many places a few year ago.
I was against import fees, but if we could use them to slow down China,Import fees are also known as Tariffs - and you see how well that worked out.
I'm all for them, but I'm afraid we are 20 years late to that party.
planet....it's not all that easy to find an American made tool.Agreed. But the internet is your friend.
https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/products-made-in-the-usa
https://www.protoolreviews.com/what-tools-are-made-in-the-usa/
https://www.toolbarn.com/usa-made-tools/
Are three sources of many.
I guess my gripe is that that as a nation, we are racing for the bottom with our education, our environment, our civil discourse and many other aspects of being a first-world nation. We are now in a race to be the best-armed third-world nation on the
You have seen this rant before:OK, that one just floors me! That must be brainwashing that won't
Keep in mind that the Average American:
Does not have a college education, including an Associate Degree (60%).
Does not have a passport (63%).
Speaks one language – badly (74%).
Has never traveled voluntarily more than 200 miles from his/her birthplace (57%).
Has never visited a foreign country, not even Mexico or Canada (71%).
Cannot name the Speaker of the House, even today (82%)
Cannot name the three branches of government (64%)
Cannot read at a college level (83%)
Cannot read for content (54%). This person cannot follow written-only directions.
60% of American Households do not buy any book in a year.
Does not believe in Evolution (42% creationism, 32% evolution, 26% no opinion).
Worst of all: The Average American does not vote. 66.2% of registered voters voted in 2020, a record! However, only 66.7% of eligible voters were actually registered. That means that only 44.2% of eligible voters actually voted.
Pretty abysmal stats.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
On 8/2/2021 11:21 AM, Peter W. wrote:
You mean a usable tool or device at a low price.I don't, no.
https://www.amazon.com/Channellock-349-Premium-Wiremaster-Linesman/dp/B00004SBD5
https://www.harborfreight.com/9-in-linesman-pliers-63820.html
The former keeps a small town in western Pennsylvania vibrant with
hundreds of well-paying jobs. The steel is sourced from the US and the
profits remain in the US.
The latter keeps a sweatshop in China working with hundreds of poorly
paying jobs. The steel is sourced from China, and the profits remain
in China.
Yes, there is a cost difference. The first time one cuts a 'live wire'
with either tool, the result of that cost difference will be instantly
manifest. Bit of advice - do not try that with the HF option.
Tools have a purpose, true. And often the need drives the choices,
true. But:
One choice provides my neighbor with a job so that he/she may support
a family and maintain a life. The other does not. If I am not
conscious of the difference between the two options, and should it
come to pass that my neighbor's choices and options put me out of a
job, then I have no grounds for complaints. If I am conscious of the
differences, then my neighbor and I have an obligation to support each
other to our mutual benefit.
Sometimes, there is no choice, and sometimes one is forced to purchase
from China, or similar Pacific Rim sources. LCD screens (invented in
Pittsburgh, PA, USA) come to mind. And many similar items. But where
there is a choice, at the very least, make that choice with full
awareness of the consequences.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
While I do agree on the buy American sentiment, it's not all that easy
to find an American made tool. And as you see, there is a 3x premium to
get that.
I was against import fees, but if we could use them to slow down China,
I'm all for them, but I'm afraid we are 20 years late to that party.
Unless they are regulated many of the 12 volt wall warts put out over 12 >> volts. It may not charge a car battery very much if it is one of the
unregulated ones ,but will maintain the charge.
** Un-regulated ( transformer) AC to DC adaptors were banned in many places a few year ago.Theoretically they are not banned, but to be allowed, they would have to
have very low standby consumption which might make them uneconomical to manufacture.
I have seen a few sold recently in Australia, but have not investigated whether they really have very low standby consumption or are just non-compliant.
Lots of things wrong here:
1. Common flooded car batteries will not charge using a small trickle charge. You can use a trickle charge to maintain the charge level of
an already charged battery, but you cannot take (for example) a half
charged battery and bring it to full charge with a trickle charger.
it's not all that easy to find an American made tool.
Agreed. But the internet is your friend. >https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/products-made-in-the-usa >https://www.protoolreviews.com/what-tools-are-made-in-the-usa/ >https://www.toolbarn.com/usa-made-tools/
Are three sources of many.
On 3/8/21 3:21 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Lots of things wrong here:
1. Common flooded car batteries will not charge using a small trickle
charge. You can use a trickle charge to maintain the charge level of
an already charged battery, but you cannot take (for example) a half
charged battery and bring it to full charge with a trickle charger.
Why is that Jeff? Surely any charger that exceeds the self-discharge
current will eventually charge the battery?
On 02/08/2021 12:57, Phil Allison wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:
=================
>
Unless they are regulated many of the 12 volt wall warts put out over 12 >>> volts. It may not charge a car battery very much if it is one of the
unregulated ones ,but will maintain the charge.
** Un-regulated ( transformer) AC to DC adaptors were banned in many places a few year ago.
Theoretically they are not banned, but to be allowed, they would have to
have very low standby consumption which might make them uneconomical to manufacture.
I have seen a few sold recently in Australia, but have not investigated whether they really have very low standby consumption or are just non-compliant.
On 03/08/2021 17:25, Rob wrote:
Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Usually such regulations cover the use of an adapter as part of a system,
e.g. a phone charger or a newly designed device with 12V power wall wart,
but it does not preclude the sale of the separate component e.g. to use
it as a service part for older equipment, or the sale of old stock.
So it is likely still legal to sell old style wall warts which could be
used in this application, you just won't find them packaged with your
new toys anymore.
No, one of the ones I purchased fairly recently was packaged with an appliance sold at a physical shop in Australia and has seemingly genuine Australian compliance markings on it - it is not some banggood grey
import. I still suspect it does not meet MEPS rules (as it was not an application where it would make commercial sense to make a special
efficient transformer instead of using a SMPS) but so far I haven't
bothered to test it.
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:46:55 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
On 3/8/21 3:21 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
1. Common flooded car batteries will not charge using a small trickle
charge. You can use a trickle charge to maintain the charge level of
an already charged battery, but you cannot take (for example) a half
charged battery and bring it to full charge with a trickle charger.
Why is that Jeff? Surely any charger that exceeds the self-discharge
current will eventually charge the battery?
I don't know and I've never seen it explained in print. Someone told
me that many years ago and my experience seems to verify the claim.
When I've tried to charge large lead-acid car batteries which have
been substantially drained (about 50%), with a small "battery
maintainer" or "battery tender", it has usually failed to charge. Not always, just usually. With small lead-acid batteries, it will charge.
I'll eventually be converting the generator starting battery to LiFePO4
plus supercaps. One advantage is that the battery has a very low self-discharge rate. Instead of a battery maintainer, I only need to
fully charge the battery and disconnect the charger. The charge holds
at about 80-85% for many months.
Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
On 02/08/2021 12:57, Phil Allison wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:
=================
>
Unless they are regulated many of the 12 volt wall warts put out over 12 >>>> volts. It may not charge a car battery very much if it is one of the
unregulated ones ,but will maintain the charge.
** Un-regulated ( transformer) AC to DC adaptors were banned in many places a few year ago.
Theoretically they are not banned, but to be allowed, they would have to
have very low standby consumption which might make them uneconomical to
manufacture.
I have seen a few sold recently in Australia, but have not investigated
whether they really have very low standby consumption or are just
non-compliant.
Usually such regulations cover the use of an adapter as part of a system, e.g. a phone charger or a newly designed device with 12V power wall wart,
but it does not preclude the sale of the separate component e.g. to use
it as a service part for older equipment, or the sale of old stock.
So it is likely still legal to sell old style wall warts which could be
used in this application, you just won't find them packaged with your
new toys anymore.
Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
On 03/08/2021 17:25, Rob wrote:
Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Usually such regulations cover the use of an adapter as part of a system, >>> e.g. a phone charger or a newly designed device with 12V power wall wart, >>> but it does not preclude the sale of the separate component e.g. to use
it as a service part for older equipment, or the sale of old stock.
So it is likely still legal to sell old style wall warts which could be
used in this application, you just won't find them packaged with your
new toys anymore.
No, one of the ones I purchased fairly recently was packaged with an
appliance sold at a physical shop in Australia and has seemingly genuine
Australian compliance markings on it - it is not some banggood grey
import. I still suspect it does not meet MEPS rules (as it was not an
application where it would make commercial sense to make a special
efficient transformer instead of using a SMPS) but so far I haven't
bothered to test it.
Ok I am not familiar with the situation in Australia, but here in Europe
most equipment is delivered with SMPS wall warts these days, they probably are cheaper as well. And I have done some testing with a power meter
(HOPI) and most of them consume no measurable power when unloaded. That
was the objective of the regulation, so it achieved that goal well.
On 3/8/21 5:48 pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:46:55 +1000, Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
On 3/8/21 3:21 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
1. Common flooded car batteries will not charge using a small trickle >>>> charge. You can use a trickle charge to maintain the charge level of
an already charged battery, but you cannot take (for example) a half
charged battery and bring it to full charge with a trickle charger.
Why is that Jeff? Surely any charger that exceeds the self-discharge
current will eventually charge the battery?
I don't know and I've never seen it explained in print. Someone told
me that many years ago and my experience seems to verify the claim.
When I've tried to charge large lead-acid car batteries which have
been substantially drained (about 50%), with a small "battery
maintainer" or "battery tender", it has usually failed to charge. Not
always, just usually. With small lead-acid batteries, it will charge.
It could be something as simple as self-discharge being much larger when
a battery has been "substantially drained"...?
Yes, I use LiFePO4 also. Self-discharge is 1-2% per annum, and the
columetric efficiency is very high also (you get back almost all the
charge you put in). Great batteries.
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:44:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
<peterw...@gmail.com> wrote:
it's not all that easy to find an American made tool.
Agreed. But the internet is your friend. >https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/products-made-in-the-usa >https://www.protoolreviews.com/what-tools-are-made-in-the-usa/ >https://www.toolbarn.com/usa-made-tools/Careful. "Made in the USA" is actually "Select Products Made in the
Are three sources of many.
USA with Global Materials". That's exactly what the DeWalt page
shows. It's much the same with most other large tool vendors. The
standard joke is that the tools are made in China or elsewhere, but
the stick on labels are attached in the USA. Some of the former large warehouses have been converted into "factories" where the "production
line" adds labels, assembles kits, adds legal documents, and stuffs
them in cardboard boxes. A major clue is that these "factories" have
very few employees compared to the square footage.
On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 2:34:59 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:ceramic insulators. Once one needed cleaning, they were often scraped because no replacements were available.
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:44:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter W."
<peterw...@gmail.com> wrote:
Careful. "Made in the USA" is actually "Select Products Made in theit's not all that easy to find an American made tool.
Agreed. But the internet is your friend.
https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/products-made-in-the-usa
https://www.protoolreviews.com/what-tools-are-made-in-the-usa/
https://www.toolbarn.com/usa-made-tools/
Are three sources of many.
USA with Global Materials". That's exactly what the DeWalt page
shows. It's much the same with most other large tool vendors. The
standard joke is that the tools are made in China or elsewhere, but
the stick on labels are attached in the USA. Some of the former large
warehouses have been converted into "factories" where the "production
line" adds labels, assembles kits, adds legal documents, and stuffs
them in cardboard boxes. A major clue is that these "factories" have
very few employees compared to the square footage.
Do you remember back in the '60s when consumer electronics were often labeled with the percentage of foreign made parts? I remember cheap TVs with Japanese built TV tuners that would melt or crumble because they used polystyrene instead of fiber or
Even if something is assembled in the USA, it often has no US made components since the US companies were sold to overseas interests who closed the US facilities. Sprague was one of the early losses, in the '90s. A place that I worked sold off theremaining production equipment. It is now part of Vishay, along with a lot of other, former US suppliers and nothing is made on shore.
Some friends of mine manufacture high quality canopies for art shows. Every company that made the required heavy vinyl they used has moved off shore. Instead of being able to call a US OEM for a couple rolls a month, they have to buy the rolls by thepallet load, and wait months instead of days for delivery. This of course got them bounced off all the 'Made in the USA lists even though they make every part from raw materials.
Back in the late 70's I worked at a commercial cooking product company.
We (the company) decided to design their own fryer timer, instead of
buying them.
So, as part of the "Made in the USA" initiative, we searched and sorted
and found optoisolators (4N35s to be precise) that were made and sold by
GE, being an American company. The others that would do what we needed
were made by Toshiba and Sony.
So we get our 4N35s in. All stamped "Made in Yugoslavia". In 1978.
Do you remember back in the '60s when consumer electronics were often labeled with the percentage of foreign made parts?
I remember cheap TVs with Japanese built TV tuners that would melt or crumble because they used polystyrene instead of fiber or ceramic insulators. Once one needed cleaning, they were often scraped because no replacements were available.
Even if something is assembled in the USA, it often has no US made components since the US companies were sold to overseas interests who closed the US facilities. Sprague was one of the early losses, in the '90s. A place that I worked sold off theremaining production equipment. It is now part of Vishay, along with a lot of other, former US suppliers and nothing is made on shore.
Some friends of mine manufacture high quality canopies for art shows. Every company that made the required heavy vinyl they used has moved off shore. Instead of being able to call a US OEM for a couple rolls a month, they have to buy the rolls by thepallet load, and wait months instead of days for delivery. This of course got them bounced off all the 'Made in the USA lists even though they make every part from raw materials.
So, as part of the "Made in the USA" initiative, we searched and sorted
and found optoisolators (4N35s to be precise) that were made and sold by
GE, being an American company. The others that would do what we needed
were made by Toshiba and Sony.
So we get our 4N35s in. All stamped "Made in Yugoslavia". In 1978.
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 19:27:45 +0200, John <jo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Can a 12VDC 500ma wall wart trickle charge a car battery or must the voltage
to charge a car battery be greater than 12VDC (like 14 or 15 volts?).
Can a well regulated 12VDC still charge (over a long time) a car battery?
Or must it be over 13.5 volts to (eventually) accomplish full charging?Lots of things wrong here:
snip.......
5. Today's overpriced car batteries cost about $100. Would you
really risk trashing a $100 battery because you don't want to use a
proper battery charger? I wouldn't. Unfortunately, a charger with a
fancy label is not a guarantee of quality. All these chargers were
defective in some manner. They also killed two rather expensive
stationary batteries at a radio site: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/dead-battery-chargers.jpg>
Spend some time and do some reading on chargers.
snip
Good luck.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
In article <se6li2$is8$1@gioia.aioe.org>, john@nospam.invalid says...
Can a 12VDC 500ma wall wart trickle charge a car battery or must the voltage >> to charge a car battery be greater than 12VDC (like 14 or 15 volts?).
Can a well regulated 12VDC still charge (over a long time) a car battery?
Or must it be over 13.5 volts to (eventually) accomplish full charging?
Unless they are regulated many of the 12 volt wall warts put out over 12 volts. It may not charge a car battery very much if it is one of the unregulated ones ,but will maintain the charge.
A well regulated 12 volt supply will not charge a car battery as it 12.6 volts when charged.
It will take a higher voltage than 13 volts to charge a car battery.
Unless precautions are taken just hooking a power supply to a car
battery could damage the power supply especially if it is a regulated
one.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 293 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 237:15:03 |
| Calls: | 6,624 |
| Files: | 12,172 |
| Messages: | 5,319,873 |
